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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left SATs podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is manager agent drummer Ed mcnell ed.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the first time you saw a dire street.

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Speaker 2: That was on December the thirteenth, nineteen seventy seven. It

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Speaker 2: was just a small club in North London, in a

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Speaker 2: part of town called Camden, at a club called Dingwalls.

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Speaker 2: I had been I was at the time. I was

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Speaker 2: an agent. I was representing, amongst others, all of Seymour

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Speaker 2: Stein's acts bless him. And I had a Talking Heads

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Speaker 2: tour coming up in January seventy eight for which I

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Speaker 2: needed an opening act. I had fifty English pounds to

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Speaker 2: ben and which in current money would be about fifty

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Speaker 2: one pounds. And I had had a phone call from

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Speaker 2: a guy called John Stains, who was the A and

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Speaker 2: R guy at Phonogram in the UK, who I knew

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Speaker 2: just through you know, being in the agency business and

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Speaker 2: so on. And he called me up and he said

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Speaker 2: I've just signed a band called Diastraits, to which my

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Speaker 2: first reaction, instantly, spontaneously was what a terrible name. And

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Speaker 2: he says, how fucking hell be serious? I said, I

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Speaker 2: am being serious. It's a terrible name, but he's pushed.

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Speaker 2: He pushed me like a good an R guy should,

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Speaker 2: and long story shot, I ended up going with him

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Speaker 2: to an incredibly cheap and greasy kibab how in North London,

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Speaker 2: followed by walking across the road to ding Walls. I

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Speaker 2: walked into the venue, which was maybe a third full,

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Speaker 2: and they were playing down to the Waterline, which ended

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Speaker 2: up on the first album. And I the first thing,

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Speaker 2: I was able to stand quite close to them because

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Speaker 2: they were not very loud. At the time. I was booking,

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Speaker 2: amongst other acts, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple, and I

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Speaker 2: was used to Black Sabbath and Deep Purple volume levels

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Speaker 2: and Dastrets were pretty quiet. And the second thing I

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Speaker 2: noticed was that Martinoffler was playing a red Fender stratocastic guitar.

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Speaker 2: The same guitar had been played by a guitarist called

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Speaker 2: Hank Marvin who'd been in a band called The Shadows.

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Speaker 2: They were Cliff Richard's backing band and then they became

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Speaker 2: a band on their own. They had a whole string

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Speaker 2: of hits with instrumentals. I've always been very fond of

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Speaker 2: instrumentals for some reason, and a combination of that guitar,

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Speaker 2: the and the what what they were what they were performing,

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Speaker 2: I mean the songs basically almost immediately kind of got

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Speaker 2: me hooked. And remember I was looking for a support

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Speaker 2: band for the Talking Heads. I was not considering getting

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Speaker 2: into management, although I was dealing with a large number

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Speaker 2: of managers who were completely incompetent. So I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: if they can do it, I can do this. So

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Speaker 2: I went. I met them after the show, asked them

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Speaker 2: if they'd like to come into my office the next day.

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Speaker 2: I was sharing my office with another agent. I got

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Speaker 2: him to move out of the office. He thought I

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Speaker 2: just meant him. I didn't. I met his desk, his chairs,

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Speaker 2: filing cabinets and everything, and I arranged my rearrange my

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Speaker 2: office to make it look like it was extremely large

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Speaker 2: and I was very, very, very important. And when the

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Speaker 2: guys came in, I got the receptionist to keep buzzing me,

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Speaker 2: and I said, to whatever I say, you just keep

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Speaker 2: buzzing me until I tell you to stop. So the

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Speaker 2: three of them, because they picked the drummer, didn't come

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Speaker 2: to meetings. So the three of them, the two and

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Speaker 2: Offler brothers and John Illesley sat down on a kind

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Speaker 2: of seating thing, and my phone went and I immediately

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Speaker 2: grabbed it and I just there was nobody on the

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Speaker 2: other end, and I just said, tell him I want

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Speaker 2: ten grand and slammed it down. Oh. I should say

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Speaker 2: also that I was working at a company called NAMS,

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Speaker 2: which was Brian Epstein's old company he had long since past, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: but it did mean that we had a lot of

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Speaker 2: Beetles and other type of golden platinum records in the basement.

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Speaker 2: So in the intermediate period, I'd gone downstairs and I've

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Speaker 2: got a whole load of these and put them up

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Speaker 2: on my wall, added a couple of purple discs and

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Speaker 2: some of the people we were representing to make it

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Speaker 2: look like I had something to do with them, when

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Speaker 2: in fact I didn't. And every time I took one

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Speaker 2: of these phone calls, I could see the guys looking

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Speaker 2: at these records and pointing to you know, a gold

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Speaker 2: disc for I want to hold your hand or something,

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Speaker 2: and whispering to each other. And I basically went through

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Speaker 2: series of questions, have you got any money? No? Have

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Speaker 2: you got a van? No? Have you got any gear? No?

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Speaker 2: Have you got a roadie? Kind of okay, talking Heads

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Speaker 2: tour fifty pounds a night, twenty three shows January next year.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to do it? And Mark, quite I

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Speaker 2: thought intelligently, did not immediately go yes and jump into it.

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Speaker 2: He asked if he could hear some of their music,

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Speaker 2: because at that point they had done one tour of

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Speaker 2: the UK and Europe, which I'd set up the previous June.

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Speaker 2: Excuse me and the talk with the Ramones. That's right,

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Speaker 2: So the Talking Heads were not known. They were known

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Speaker 2: to the people who were into the kind of new

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Speaker 2: wave thing, but that was really only starting. That would

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Speaker 2: have been seventy six, so this was late seventy seven. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: they took the record away. He called me up that

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Speaker 2: evening and he said, yeah, we'd like to do it,

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Speaker 2: and so I put them on that tour. I got

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Speaker 2: them guessed billing I had. I paid the Talking Head

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Speaker 2: sound man, who I'd hired anyway, for an extra five

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Speaker 2: pounds to do their sound. I we didn't have any lights.

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Speaker 2: We just had white light, which was what the Talking

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Speaker 2: Heads wanted anyway, and it was everybody rode in the

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Speaker 2: same van. They all met outside the hotel in London

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Speaker 2: on the first day and both bands got on really well,

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Speaker 2: and it worked musically really really well. That might not

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Speaker 2: be obvious to some of your listeners, but it did

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Speaker 2: blend together. And they're talking Airs of course weren't a

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Speaker 2: punk band. They'd been kind of thrown into that box

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Speaker 2: because they were on Sire Records, but they weren't really

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Speaker 2: they want thought of as a punk band, and we

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Speaker 2: hadn't really invented the words new wave at that point.

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Speaker 2: So they did twenty three shows in twenty four days,

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Speaker 2: which is how I always toured bands. They were still

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Speaker 2: doing twenty three in twenty four when they broke up.

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Speaker 2: Why they broke up? Had they got an on call

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Speaker 2: us every night? They got great press. The two bands

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Speaker 2: got on really great. They used to do a jam

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Speaker 2: on take Me to the River, the Al Green's song

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Speaker 2: at the end. And while they were on that tour

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Speaker 2: Phonogram John Stains, the A and R guy I mentioned

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Speaker 2: he'd set about trying to find a record producer for

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Speaker 2: the first Stars Traits album, and of course Darstrets were

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Speaker 2: completely unknown. There were two people who were interested. One

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Speaker 2: was a guitar player called Pete Gage who'd been with

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Speaker 2: a sol band, British sol band called Gina Washington and

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Speaker 2: the Ramjam Band, and the other was Muff Windward, brother

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Speaker 2: of Steve, as he would tell every girl who came

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Speaker 2: into the control room. And there was a funny little

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Speaker 2: thing went on. The way that the record deal was

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Speaker 2: set up, because it had been done before I came

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Speaker 2: into the picture by the band's then lawyer, was that

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Speaker 2: they got on advance, which was okay, nothing spectacular. The

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Speaker 2: rules is were not very good. They got seven and

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Speaker 2: a half percent in what were called the major markets,

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Speaker 2: and they got six percent in the minor markets. And

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Speaker 2: Phonogram paid the record producer. And I'll tell you a

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Speaker 2: short story which will embarrass Muff if he's watching this.

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Speaker 2: Muff did a deal with business affairs Phonogram for a

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Speaker 2: two percent royalty and twenty five hundred pounds advance. And

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Speaker 2: about two days before the record started, he called me

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Speaker 2: up and he said, I'm not very happy about my deal,

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Speaker 2: and I went, really, just you know, and he said,

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Speaker 2: I said, how can I make you happy? Muff? And

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Speaker 2: he said, well, you know, I'd like some kind of

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Speaker 2: an increase. I said, well, actually that's the responsibility of

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Speaker 2: the record company, but let me see what I can do.

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Speaker 2: So I put the phone down and without ringing the

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Speaker 2: record company. I waited for about ten minutes and I

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Speaker 2: called him back and I said, okay, you can have

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Speaker 2: I could get you either an extra half a percent

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Speaker 2: or five hundred pounds, and he took the five hundred

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Speaker 2: pounds and the record sold fifteen million. But I have

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Speaker 2: to say he was very gentlemanly about it. In fact,

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Speaker 2: he was actually on a two week break. He was

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Speaker 2: leaving Island Records, where it was running A and R

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Speaker 2: to move over to what was then CBS where he

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Speaker 2: was going to be running A and R there, and

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Speaker 2: he managed in that two weeks he did the whole

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Speaker 2: of the Dastrets record and half of an album for

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Speaker 2: somebody else.

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Speaker 1: Okay, when you go to see Dire Streets to decide

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Speaker 1: whether they're going to be on the Talking Heads tour? A,

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Speaker 1: do they have a manager? B? How do you become

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Speaker 1: the manager?

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Speaker 2: Answered the first half of that question. No, they didn't.

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Speaker 2: Robert Allen, who was the lawyer that they had at

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Speaker 2: the time, had approached the big name managers, Steve A.

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Speaker 2: Rock for instance, the late Steve A. Rook who was

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Speaker 2: managing Pink Floyd. I can't remember who the others were

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Speaker 2: and of course they all said, because anybody who approaches

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Speaker 2: a big name manager, the big name manager is a

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Speaker 2: big name manager because he has a big name act.

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Speaker 2: But that also means that he probably doesn't have very

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Speaker 2: much time, or he's got other baby acts that he's

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Speaker 2: trying to bring through. And that was the case with everybody,

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Speaker 2: and they all basically said to Robert, you know, bog Off, Robert,

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Speaker 2: we don't want your POxy little group. Because of their name,

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Speaker 2: because of the name Darstras, everybody thought they were a

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Speaker 2: punk group. They had done a demo of four songs

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Speaker 2: with a London DJ called Charlie Gillert. Sorry, they've done

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Speaker 2: the the demo themselves and Charlie had played it on

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Speaker 2: his London radio show. That was the only exposure they'd had. So, no,

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Speaker 2: they didn't have a manager. They were at the point

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Speaker 2: where they needed one. I mean they kind of in fact,

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Speaker 2: in some ways they could have. It would have been

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Speaker 2: better off if I got involved a bit earlier, but

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Speaker 2: that wasn't the way it worked. And they No, they

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Speaker 2: didn't have a manager and they were but the good

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Speaker 2: thing about them was that they everything was kind of

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Speaker 2: in place. They had a publishing deal with Almo Irving

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Speaker 2: or Rondo music as it's called over here, which although everybody,

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Speaker 2: all four of them, Robert had got them a published,

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Speaker 2: each one of them a publishing thing to keep the

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Speaker 2: politics good happy between them, but that really only meant

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Speaker 2: mark in practice. They had this record deal. They didn't

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Speaker 2: have a record deal for North America, which was quite important.

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Speaker 1: Hey, what motivated the record deal? This is a band

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Speaker 1: with no manager, no thing. How did they get the

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Speaker 1: record deal? And why was Warner Brothers not included in

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Speaker 1: the Phonogram deal?

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Speaker 2: Okay, the record deal came about because the four track demo.

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Speaker 2: What happened was they made this four track demo in

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Speaker 2: a little studio in North London with an engineer called

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Speaker 2: Chas Herrington, who I later asked to become our lighting director,

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Speaker 2: and he became a lighting man and he's a fantastic

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Speaker 2: lighting guy. And John Illsley, the bass player, who was

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Speaker 2: very much the organizer of the band at that point,

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Speaker 2: he took that demo round to Charlie's house and delivered

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Speaker 2: it one morning and Charlie played it at home, thought

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Speaker 2: it was great. The songs on it were saltless, a

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Speaker 2: swing down to the waterline, wild West End, and a

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Speaker 2: song called Sacred Loving that they didn't record in the end,

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Speaker 2: and Charlie played it on his radio show. And Charlie's

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Speaker 2: radio show was a kind of arbiter of taste if

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Speaker 2: you like. It wasn't like Radio one, BBC or anything

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Speaker 2: like that. So a lot of people in the business

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Speaker 2: who were music fans, including John Stains, would listen to this,

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Speaker 2: and John heard it. Several other people did and on

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Speaker 2: the Monday we went out on a Saturday, and on

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Speaker 2: the Monday morning, Rob Allen starts getting phone calls from

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Speaker 2: A and R guys saying, who's this band you just played?

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Speaker 2: Everybody thought they were American. Nobody knew anything about them,

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Speaker 2: and it kind of got into something that I never

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Speaker 2: did as part of my practice, but it became a

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Speaker 2: bit of a bidding war. Chris Blackwell, who's quite a

225
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Speaker 2: good friend of mine, told me a great story about

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Speaker 2: how he was invited to see them because his A

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Speaker 2: and R guy was Chap called at Howard Thompson wanted

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Speaker 2: to sign them very badly. So Chris went to see

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Speaker 2: them at some other pub gig in London and halfway

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Speaker 2: down the staircase into the basement, he was stopped by

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Speaker 2: somebody he knew who dragged him to the bar, and

232
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Speaker 2: he never saw them and he missed out. Richard Branson

233
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Speaker 2: invited them to lunch, and during the kind of the

234
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Speaker 2: coffee and dessert bit, various personnel from Virgin came out

235
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Speaker 2: in this restaurant and presented the group with plates of

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Speaker 2: ready roll joints. And none of them smoked weed, and

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Speaker 2: in fact they were quite anti So that screwed it

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Speaker 2: for Vergin. It's amazing how little things like that and

239
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Speaker 2: what's happened at the time as the Phonogram once they

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Speaker 2: decided to go. The band had decided to go with Phonogram,

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Speaker 2: and Robert was brokering the financial details. Everybody, well not

242
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Speaker 2: the group guys because they didn't know, but everybody else

243
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Speaker 2: decided that the American the PolyGram operation in America was

244
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Speaker 2: not really happening, and a clause was put in of

245
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Speaker 2: which I was to make enormous play that if RSO

246
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Speaker 2: passed on the group, the rights to place the American

247
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Speaker 2: deal would revert to the band, which went me, who

248
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Speaker 2: had never read record agreement, done alone, done a record deal.

249
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Speaker 2: And RSO passed Because this was nineteen seventy seven and

250
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 2: they were right on the cusp of Robert Stigwood's you

251
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Speaker 2: know all of that, and thank goodness, that's what That's

252
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Speaker 2: what happened.

253
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Speaker 1: I did.

254
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Speaker 2: I was subjected some time later, before the Wallers deal

255
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,600
Speaker 2: was actually signed. I was somebody dead attempt to bribe

256
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Speaker 2: me who had been sent by PolyGram, who took me

257
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Speaker 2: into a jacuzzie in Los Angeles and offered me one

258
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Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars if the band would quote forget about

259
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Speaker 2: that clause, and I just fled.

260
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Speaker 1: Okay, So one thing at one time, RSO passes. How

261
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Speaker 1: do you end up at Warner Brothers as opposed to

262
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Speaker 1: Columbia or anything else?

263
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Speaker 2: Well, well you're very close because the other competing label

264
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Speaker 2: was Columbia. What happened to this is such a long story.

265
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Speaker 2: There were two ladies, sadly both gone deceased now at

266
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Speaker 2: Warner Brothers, Karen Berg on the East coast and ROBERTA.

267
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Speaker 2: Peterson on the West coast. An unbeknownst to anybody, including

268
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Speaker 2: both of them, each of those girls heard this record

269
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Speaker 2: or heard about this band. Karen came over to London,

270
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Speaker 2: went to see them at a club we had here

271
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Speaker 2: called the Nashville and Roberta. I think Roberta. I don't

272
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Speaker 2: remember how Roberta got onto it, but they I didn't

273
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Speaker 2: know either of these people, and I didn't know that

274
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Speaker 2: they were interested. At that particular moment we started getting

275
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Speaker 2: interest from Columbia. I don't remember who the A and

276
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 2: R person was, and I think there might have been

277
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Speaker 2: some other labels for some reason. I've got A and

278
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Speaker 2: M in my mind, and they would have been a

279
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Speaker 2: very kind of A and M type of act, and

280
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Speaker 2: of course A and M. But I remember A and

281
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Speaker 2: M have of course had got picked up the publishing

282
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Speaker 2: or Jerry Boss knew of them through that.

283
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Speaker 1: And.

284
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Speaker 2: Mark and I flew over to Los Angeles in the summer,

285
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Speaker 2: must have been about they had after the Talking Heads tour.

286
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Speaker 2: I just kept them working for two reasons. One they

287
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Speaker 2: had no money and secondly, they need to play. They

288
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 2: needed to play live. So I had them doing stuff

289
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,719
Speaker 2: that was ridiculous. I mean they opened for Sticks of

290
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 2: all People, which was just ridiculous, but didn't matter. They

291
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,120
Speaker 2: got to play for an hour, and they started doing

292
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Speaker 2: their own shows, and in June of nineteen seventy eight

293
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Speaker 2: they did their first headlining tour of Britain, which was

294
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Speaker 2: college's kind of town halls, which held about two thousand people.

295
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Speaker 2: The Marquee Club in London got them a residency there

296
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Speaker 2: and they got a really good buzz going. In June

297
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Speaker 2: of seventy eight, that first album was released in the

298
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Speaker 2: UK and not at that point in the rest of

299
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Speaker 2: the world territories, and Mark and I came over to

300
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Speaker 2: the States in I think it was July seventy eight

301
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Speaker 2: to meet This whole thing was out of time with itself,

302
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 2: because by July seventy eight we were already looking at

303
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 2: album number two, because he'd already written a bunch of songs,

304
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 2: and there were one or two songs which had not

305
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 2: made it onto the first record. And Karen Berg was

306
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Speaker 2: working on the in the East Coast office of Warner Brothers.

307
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Speaker 2: And the person who, at least in his own mind,

308
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Speaker 2: was running the East Coast office, but he wasn't really

309
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 2: was Jerry Wexler. And Jerry Wexler heard this record being

310
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Speaker 2: played in the offices. And one thing I'll say about

311
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 2: Jerry Wexler is he could spot a dime at five

312
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 2: miles and he very quickly jumped onto this and Mark

313
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Speaker 2: and I went to Muscle Shoals, Alabama, for what for

314
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: us was an absolutely thrilling trip. I mean, we get

315
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 2: there and Wexler, we had not met, we meet him.

316
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Speaker 2: He comes and we're putt in a we're put in

317
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Speaker 2: a We're put in a motel that must have cost

318
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Speaker 2: one dollar fifty a night. I remember my bed was

319
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Speaker 2: padlocked to the floor. Each leg of the bed had

320
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Speaker 2: a padlock chained to a lump of concrete to stop

321
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Speaker 2: anybody pinching the bed. Wexler arrived the following morning, met

322
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Speaker 2: us immediately took us off to a southern road stop

323
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Speaker 2: where I remember that the waitress was wearing takeaway bags

324
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Speaker 2: on her feet, and he he took us off to

325
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Speaker 2: the studio and he was recording Mavis Staples and we

326
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 2: are like, holy shit shit, And of course the guys,

327
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 2: the musicians were the swampers. There was David Hurd, Barry Beckett,

328
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 2: Jimmy Johnson, and the next day Pop Staples flew down

329
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Speaker 2: from Chicago, and I remember going out to pick up

330
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Speaker 2: Pops at the airport with Wexler and Mark and we

331
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Speaker 2: went back to the studio and they were recording J. J.

332
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 2: Kale's Lies and Wexler, ever the opportunist bless him, invited

333
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: Mark to play with these guys. Mark had never done

334
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Speaker 2: a session in his life. I mean, he was completely, like,

335
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: totally gibbering with terror. And they didn't use court notes.

336
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: They had this numbers system, whether you know what that

337
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 2: is in muscle. In that studio, a number represented a chord,

338
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 2: So you might have six, five, eleven, twelve nine written

339
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: on the sheet of paper and given to you. And

340
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 2: Mark's looking at a set of numbers. He just look

341
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 2: what they are. But he knew the song obviously. And

342
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 2: I remember thereafter the couple of takes, Pops walked out

343
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: into the studio and he actually put his face within

344
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 2: about two inches from Mark's face and just stared at him.

345
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 2: And I said to Wexler, what's what's going on? And

346
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 2: Wesley goes, he likes him. So we did that record Mayvi.

347
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: This was great. Unfortunately Mayvis had a bit of a complaint.

348
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: She had a weak bladder, so she kept going to

349
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: the bathroom, and of course, being English, we assumed that

350
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: she had a massive cocaine problem, when in fact, as

351
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: she explained to the two of us, the law the

352
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: Lord gave me a problem in that department but we

353
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: did that record. I can't even remember if Mark's credited

354
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: on it. And we hung out with everybody for about

355
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:22,479
Speaker 2: ten days. Fantastic fun. I remember Bobby Womac showed up.

356
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: I had done a tour with Bobby Womack about two

357
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: years previously of Europe, and he showed up with his

358
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: new wife, whose name was well, the way he pronounced

359
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: it was Vagina, and he meant Virginia, but he didn't pronounce.

360
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 2: He kept calling this as my new watch, She's called Vagina,

361
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: and everybody in the room was just it was everything

362
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: was a laugh. We were staying at a crap motel.

363
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 2: The swimming pool was empty and it was full of

364
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: shopping baskets had been thrown in there. But we love

365
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: the South, loved that part of the country, loved the people.

366
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 2: We got very friendly with Barry Beckett, and we flew

367
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 2: on to Los Angeles, stayed stayed at the Riot House,

368
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: and I Mark wasn't really he had he didn't have

369
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: much to do, but I was having meetings principally with Warners,

370
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: and I can remember going up there with one copy

371
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: of the album in the vinyl copy under my arm,

372
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: and I had bullshitted my way in to see ma Austin.

373
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: I'd never met Mo in my life, and I just

374
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: bbbbbing got in and he said to me, I'll never

375
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 2: forget it, and he was so I grew to really

376
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: have huge respect for great liking. He said, I don't

377
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: know anything about music, Go and see THEA and R Department,

378
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 2: which of course he definitely did know about music, but

379
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 2: it was probably a bit more Frank Sinatra and Dean

380
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: than it was, you know, although he'd been involved in

381
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: signing those acts from the Monterey Festival, like Jimi Hendrix

382
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 2: and some And he picked up the phone and he

383
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: rang somebody and that turned out to be Roberta. So

384
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 2: I was sent down to see Roberta. And there was

385
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: this little blonde girl sitting in an office which had

386
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: more palm trees and plants than I'd ever seen in

387
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: my life. She's got the requisite California tan. I give

388
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: her a record and it was kind of a bit

389
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: spinal tap because she put it on and cranked the

390
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: volume up to eleven and I'm sitting there and my

391
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: hair is kind of the wind and she played the

392
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: whole of the first side, flipped it over and played

393
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 2: the whole of the second side, and she told me

394
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: later that she was so excited by it, but she

395
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: didn't want to let on to me because she didn't

396
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: know anything about the deal or the politics or anything.

397
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: But the one thing that she forgot was that she

398
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: was tapping. I could see her feet tapping like mad

399
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: under her desk. And she said to me, where are

400
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: you staying? And I said, we're staying at the Hiat

401
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: and that caused a huge smile to appear, and then

402
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: she said, can I keep this copy? I'd like to

403
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: play it to some other people. I should point out

404
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: at this point that she didn't know that Karen Berg

405
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: was already onto this, and I didn't know that, so

406
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, yeah, sure, of course you could keep it.

407
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: And I said, she said, how long are you in

408
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: town for? I said, how long do you need? You know, whatever?

409
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: And I went back to the hotel and Mark and

410
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: I went and celebrated in the Highat coffee shop, and

411
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 2: very quickly after that, it was like the snowball coming

412
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: down the mountain picking up snow. And all musicians are effected.

413
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 2: Anybody who plays an instrument is by definition to me

414
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: a musical snob. And we were musical snobs. Warner Brothers

415
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: had Van Morrison, they were just about to release that

416
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: first Ricky Lee Jones good. They just signed Van Halen.

417
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: I can't remember the other kinds of acts you were,

418
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: the kind of acts that Lenny Warneker would work with

419
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 2: or people like that. They were kind of like our

420
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: kind of thing. And Columbia, well, first of all, they

421
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: were based in New York and we didn't know any

422
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: plans to go to New York. And I had had

423
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: dealings with Columbia in the UK and this is back then,

424
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: and they were a pain in the arse. They were bureaucratic.

425
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: They were just difficult to deal with. Everything was signing

426
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: a bit of paper, getting a memo, doing all of

427
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. And the band. We had to

428
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: get back to England because the band were doing their

429
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: first trip to Europe, which turned out to be a

430
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: seminal event because we went to Holland. What how was

431
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: I got back And this is back in the days

432
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: of telex. I get telex in about September of that year,

433
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: seventy eight from the company in Holland who I'd never

434
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: spoken to, and it said album has entered chart at

435
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: forty three and I just looked at it, crumpled it

436
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: up and I threw it in the bin. The next

437
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: week I got another one. It said album has gone

438
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: up to seventeen, and I went wow, through that one

439
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: in the bin. The next week album has gone up

440
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 2: to eleven. They had released Songs of Swing as a single.

441
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: Would we go over to Holland and play their weekly

442
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: popsher called Top Pop very much like Top of the

443
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: Pops in the UK. It was a singles show, so

444
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: we went over. This was the original four piece and

445
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: during the show they represented with a gold album, which

446
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 2: none of us, including me, had any idea about. I

447
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: hadn't at that point got a handle on how to

448
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: use the record company. I wasn't.

449
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: I was.

450
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: Not totally inexperienced, but I didn't know the vagaries of

451
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: how it all worked. We ended up doing or the

452
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: guys ended up doing interviews from ten in the morning

453
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: till ten o'clock at night for two days, and they

454
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: were completely exhausted by it and I had to get

455
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: control of that. But having said that, it worked because

456
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: that record and appear us on that TV show got

457
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: us to number one. So we had our first number

458
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: one and Holland is quite interesting from a geographical point

459
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 2: of view because it's in right. The radio stations in

460
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 2: Holland could be heard in Germany, especially in North Germany,

461
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: in Belgium and in northern France. So it was a

462
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: bit like dropping a pebble in a pond and the

463
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 2: ripples went out and suddenly I'm getting similar tech tallexis

464
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 2: from Germany, this, that and the other. And we started

465
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: working those territories, by which I mean doing every possible

466
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: television show and every possible interview we could do. My

467
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: attitude to television and it's still the same is that

468
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: all popular music television is rubbish, so you might as

469
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 2: well do all of it. So we're starting to become

470
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: a bit of a we were getting hot and and

471
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: I was playing we were playing dates. The one thing

472
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: about dar Straits throughout their entire career, but certainly in

473
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: that first two or three years, was their their work

474
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,959
Speaker 2: ethic was unbelievable. I mean you laugh every time I say,

475
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 2: you know, I put in twenty gigs without a day off.

476
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: That was absolutely common. I days off to me are

477
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 2: something you do for for Roady's.

478
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: Okay, let's just go back. Got a couple of eyes.

479
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: How did you become the manager?

480
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: Bullshit? Do you know? I don't really know. They came

481
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: into the office that time I was talking about I

482
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: did this whole act because that's what it was, sticking

483
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: up Beatles records on my wall, making the girl phone me,

484
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: all of this sort of stuff. And I think they've

485
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 2: they told me since when they were left the office

486
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 2: and they were walking up the road. David Knopfler, younger

487
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 2: Mark's younger brother, David and Martinofler never agreed about anything.

488
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: If Mark said the sun will come up tomorrow, David

489
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: would say, Nah, it's not going to happen. No. Mark

490
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 2: and John said, we like that guy. I mean, he's

491
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 2: a bit off the wall, but he knows what he's

492
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: talking about. And the thing I think that worked was

493
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: that we came from very similar backgrounds. We were the

494
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: same age, we had grown up listening to the same

495
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: kind of music, and we had most importantly the same

496
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: kind of humor. When I was going for drum lessons

497
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: in Leeds in my teens, Mark Knopfler was going to

498
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: the same music shop. At the same time. He would

499
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 2: turn left into guitars. Woodwinds were on the right, and

500
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: as always, the drum department was in the basement. But

501
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: when we got to know each other because we came

502
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 2: from within twelve miles of each other. He was actually

503
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: born in Glasgow, grew up in Newcastle on Tyne, and

504
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: then he moved down to Leeds when he was at college.

505
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 2: And I remember he said to me one day, he said,

506
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 2: did you used to go to the kitchens of Leeds? No? Yeah, yeah,

507
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 2: I said, I got my drums done and that's where

508
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: I had lessons. And he said, when I said about

509
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three, four or five, he said, that's so weird,

510
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: is is that I was going there at the same time.

511
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 2: So you have these kind of cosmic connections, I suppose.

512
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: And.

513
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: I think that it was a it was just a

514
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 2: feeling and I and it was exactly the right time

515
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: for me. I'd been an agent at that point for

516
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: about seven years. I'd represented some very big acts and

517
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: I was kind of I wanted to move on. I

518
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: wanted to get out of it. It was too it

519
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: wasn't like it is now. I mean there was no

520
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 2: Live Nations AG's nothing like that. And the promoters you

521
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: tended to be dealing with it was all a bit

522
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: crushy fingers and hope that they don't run off to

523
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 2: Brazil kind of thing. A Back then, a promoter was

524
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: anybody who walked into the office and said I'm a promoter.

525
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: People would walk in and I'd be selling the deep

526
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: purple dates within five minutes, just hoping that they'd have

527
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 2: enough money to pay the deposit. It was completely chaotic

528
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: and incredible fun, I mean ridiculously fun.

529
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: Okay, you ultimately become the manager. Do you discuss percentage?

530
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 1: Do you sign a contract? Who just move forward?

531
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 2: Well, this is where Robert Allen, the lawyer comes back

532
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 2: into play, because he's busily bringing up Steve A. Rook

533
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 2: and Steve A. Roake doesn't take collect calls, so we

534
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 2: can't find them a manager. And they said to him,

535
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 2: we've met this guy. We want him to be our manager.

536
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: And Robert had never heard of me, and he dragged

537
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 2: his feet, and one day, I don't remember who it was,

538
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 2: it probably would have been Mark, rang him up and

539
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 2: said Mark, Robert, go on with it. We're going to

540
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 2: have this guy. Either you do this or we'll get

541
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: somebody else to do it, or however it was phrased

542
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 2: so Suddenly Robert's attitude changes quite a bit and he

543
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: comes up with a deal, and I can tell you

544
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: what the terms were. It was ten percent of the

545
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 2: gross of publishing.

546
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: It was.

547
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: Fifteen percent of the gross of records. There was nothing

548
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 2: in it about soundtracks, there was nothing in it about

549
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 2: producer work. And the publishing was fifteen. That was the start.

550
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: But you said the publishing was ten. In the publishing

551
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: was fifteen.

552
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 2: I beg your pardon. The publishing started off at ten,

553
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: that's right. What was live live was fifteen. Now in

554
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: my head, I immediately saw a problem because if I

555
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 2: used an agent, if I switched hats and I became

556
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: their manager and I used a third party agent, that

557
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 2: was probably going to be another ten. So twenty five

558
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: percent off the top of live work was probably going

559
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: to push that live work into a loss if it

560
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: wasn't already in a loss. And if you've got a

561
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: loss going on, you've got a potential problem. I got

562
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: around the problem in a way by I didn't leave NAMS,

563
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: so I was using their phones, their staff, secretarial, their infrastructure,

564
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 2: and EMS was a big agency. They would be the

565
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 2: equivalent of back then, they would have been the William

566
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 2: Morris or CIA of London, and I was a big

567
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 2: shit there. So we started on that deal because I

568
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: didn't really he wasn't giving me a choice. I had

569
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: a lawyer do my end of it. But that was

570
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: really just crossing t's and dotting eyes when I as

571
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: time progressed, I'm just going to get ahead of myself

572
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:06,959
Speaker 2: slightly in this ology. That deal changed and I did.

573
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 2: I did all the record deals myself, I did all

574
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: the publishing deals myself. I booked every show everywhere myself

575
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: except for the USA, and I did every merchandising deal myself.

576
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: I did every film soundtrack deal myself, on the basis

577
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: that nobody knows anything, so why not. And the deal

578
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 2: over the next couple of years changed so that the

579
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 2: publishing became twenty percent. Yes, yes, oh yes. The records

580
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 2: stayed at fifteen, but Mark started getting a producer chunk

581
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: and I got twenty of that.

582
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: And the live.

583
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 2: Kind of wobbled up and down according to how profitable

584
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 2: the tours had been. But just before the Brothers in

585
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: Arms tour, which I'm sure you're going to get to,

586
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 2: Mark and John called me over to the rehearsal room

587
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: and Mark said to me, he said, you book all

588
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 2: our dates, don't you? And I'm thinking, God, is he

589
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 2: only just noticed? And I went yeah, and he said,

590
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 2: and we don't pay for it, do we? And I went, well,

591
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 2: it's just part of the package. He said, well, we

592
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: think you should get an extra five percent and I

593
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: went done. And that was the deal I ended up on.

594
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: Okay, a couple of questions. When you were in Los Angeles,

595
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 1: did you finalize the deal with Warner Brothers?

596
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: Pretty much? Yeah, pretty much?

597
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: Okay, And in this agreement hang on.

598
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 2: Sorry to intruct you, we didn't finalize the commercial terms,

599
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 2: and we ended up with a better royalty rate than

600
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 2: we got we're getting from a phonograph. Because I was,

601
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: I was involved. This all sounds very grandiose, but I mean,

602
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: I just I mean, I came back to the what

603
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 2: I said to you a few seconds ago. Back then, No,

604
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: Don Passman hadn't written his book, bless him, so you

605
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: just could kind of make it up as you went along.

606
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: And what and I do. And for a manager, leverage

607
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: is everything, but leverage in part it is not just commercial.

608
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 2: It's your personality. It's the way you approach things. It's

609
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: knowing when to say no, went to say yes, my

610
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: Austin once said, not my Austin David Berman, who was

611
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: the head of his business affairs for many years. David

612
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: said to me, I'll tell you. I'll tell you this

613
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 2: to my own benefit. He said, you know your most

614
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: favorite manager. Well, well I am. That's very nice, I said,

615
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 2: any particular reason. He said, because whenever you ask us

616
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: for something, you give us something in return. He said.

617
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: There are people in this town, meaning Los Angeles, and

618
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: he said that I'm having a couple of lawyers, attorneys

619
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: in mind, who's who think that the best deal that

620
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: they can get for their artist means that we're making

621
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: a loss on every unit we sell. And I said,

622
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 2: but that's ridiculous, that's just stupid. You have to let

623
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: the other person have a fair crack. Some of the

624
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 2: big record companies don't believe in that philosophy. But I've

625
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 2: always believed in that philosophy. I've given promoters money back.

626
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,919
Speaker 2: I actually I cut a merchant I readd a merchandising

627
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,919
Speaker 2: deal with somebody. When the vat the sales tax rate

628
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: went up in this country by two and a half percent.

629
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 2: I rang the guy up and I said I'm dropping

630
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: your deal by two and a half percent. And when

631
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: he got off the floor, he said why, I said,

632
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: I don't want that to be passed on to the public.

633
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: Okay, you made these deals at low royalty rates? Did

634
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: you renegotiate and when.

635
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: Well, the Warner's deal wasn't that lower rule too rate.

636
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: But the original Phonogram deal, which I hadn't done, which

637
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 2: I told you about at the beginning, that was pretty low.

638
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 2: Although you know you have to put all this in

639
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: the context of the time. You can't in twenty twenty

640
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 2: four look back and say, well, Elvis Presley had a

641
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: crap record deal. Yeah, because I mean, I remember Wexler

642
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: saying to me, because Wexley was very proud in a

643
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 2: strange sort of way of the way that they exploited

644
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 2: the artists on Atlantic, particularly the black artists, and they

645
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: paid He said to me, I don't know how true

646
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: this is. He said to me one day that they

647
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 2: had paid Ray Charles thirty dollars flat to record. What

648
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: did I say? And then you look at they sold

649
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: Atlantic to Wea for I think seventeen million dollars, and

650
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 2: I was just astonished that it was so low and

651
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 2: Western's response was capital Games, Capital Games rubbish. So in

652
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: answer to your question, I reegotiated the record side with

653
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 2: the PolyGram countries the Phonogram deal every single time we

654
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 2: put a record out. Every time. I did not do

655
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 2: that with Warner Brothers. I waited. I just had a

656
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 2: sense that we were going to have one day a

657
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 2: humongous record in America, and since we weren't on a

658
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 2: bad deal, we were on sixteen percent. I think it

659
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 2: was I didn't feel the kind of almost sounds sounds

660
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: a bit pretentiousness. I didn't feel a kind of moral

661
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 2: pressure to be pushing them. And I have to say,

662
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 2: sort of the listeners to this may think this is

663
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: a very strange motivation. I really liked the people at

664
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 2: Warner Brothers, and somehow that crept into my I would can't.

665
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: I mean, they were a big corporation, et cetera. But

666
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: I really like mo. I love Lenny. I mean, he's

667
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: just he's just adorable, used to used to play some

668
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 2: terrible jokes on it. But and and all all the

669
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: people I dealt with, and one person in particular, Carl Scott,

670
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: who at the time was head of artist relations there.

671
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: He was a huge supporter of the band and of

672
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 2: me personally, and he and people in his department. Girl

673
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 2: called Ellen Darst, another girl called Karen Kaplan who went

674
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 2: on to She left and she worked for Paul McGuinness

675
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: and you too for many years. They were incredibly supportive

676
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 2: and I can't remember his name, but the guy was

677
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: head of merchandising had the best split in town.

678
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about giving to get when you renegotiated

679
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 1: with Phonogram, what'd you give them for a higher royalty rate?

680
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 2: Well, the only thing you can give them is extra records.

681
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 2: That's all they're I mean, you can say, oh, you know,

682
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 2: we'll do I won't, I won't be nasty to the

683
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 2: but it's basically you give them more product. So it's

684
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 2: very important when you're an at starting out that you

685
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 2: end up by chance or if you want to call it,

686
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: with the label that is right for you, because whatever happens,

687
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: and certainly now since nearly all record companies are essentially

688
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 2: corporate unless they're specialized specialty labels, the turnover in personnel

689
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: is an issue I got through in twenty five years

690
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: over twelve managing directors in the UK Phonogram Company, which

691
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 2: is a terrible way to run a business in the

692
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 2: States until the time Warner merger and the fallout from that.

693
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 2: It was basically Moe Austin's company, and he ran it

694
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: in a very particular way, and he was incredibly accessible.

695
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 2: His staff loved him. I mean most of his staff

696
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 2: would have crawled over broken glass, you know, Romoe. And

697
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 2: he was an infinitely interesting person to spend time with

698
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 2: if I got him on Frank Sinatra anecdotes, Wow, fantastic.

699
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: So I had a different philosophy with the American company

700
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 2: than I did with the rest of the world. Now

701
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 2: I should just explain that we were signed to Phonogram UK.

702
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: Phonogram was part of PolyGram, which at the time was

703
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 2: owned by Phillips and Semens until Phillips bought Semens out,

704
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 2: and Phillips being a Dutch company, they were based in Eindhoven.

705
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: They had an operation in a place in Holland call

706
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:06,720
Speaker 2: barn baa Rn, which was a bit like going to prison,

707
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 2: a prisoner of war camp in the Second World War.

708
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 2: This was the worst atmosphere. It was a whole lot

709
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 2: of buildings connected by tunnels underneath, except it wasn't Las Vegas,

710
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: and they were supposed to coordinate, coordinate all of their territories.

711
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 2: They had companies in most parts of the world, but

712
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 2: not everywhere. For instance, they didn't have a company in

713
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: South Africa. They had a licensee. They were so totally

714
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: hopeless at coordinating these people. I couldn't even get sales figures.

715
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 2: So I started dealing with all of these companies direct.

716
00:52:56,239 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 2: I just went round this operation in. Of course, the

717
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 2: people in Holland were extremely ticked off, but the managing

718
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 2: directors and marketing heads of all of the other companies

719
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 2: just thought this, Wow, this is great. Why because politically

720
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 2: within that setup, the fact that they were dealing direct

721
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,240
Speaker 2: with the manager of one of the biggest acts, which

722
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 2: became the biggest act, and they became my friends, you know,

723
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 2: so they would It was almost like I was giving

724
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 2: them political ammunition for their own personal ambition. But he

725
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 2: got the job done. That was all I was concerned about.

726
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 2: I wanted to know what I used to make them

727
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 2: give me. Marketing plans, sales projections, weekly sales figures, the

728
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:53,439
Speaker 2: whole lot. Not so much because I'm sitting at home

729
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 2: every weekend reading all this stuff, but because many many

730
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 2: this She's got nothing to do with what we're talking about,

731
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 2: but really a really quick story. I did a deal

732
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 2: many many years later for Mark to do a piece

733
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 2: of music for a film called Color of Money that

734
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 2: was Martin Scorsese film that was being distributed by Disney.

735
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 2: And I got into a huge row with the lawyer

736
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 2: at Disney because their attitude was we will own everything

737
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 2: and you will own nothing, and my attitude was, no,

738
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 2: you will own nothing and we will own everything, which

739
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 2: is how it ended up. And somebody there who was

740
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 2: head of script development who I happened to know go

741
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 2: called Jane Rosenthal. She works, She's run some Tribeca studios

742
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 2: for Robert de Niro now it has for many years.

743
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 2: She called me up after a particularly how can I

744
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 2: put it vicious email to this guy in the legal

745
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 2: department and she said, are you having a problem with sounds?

746
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 2: And I went, no, nothing I can't handle. And I said,

747
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: how do you know about that? She said no, At Disney,

748
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 2: every head of department is copying in on every ingoing

749
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 2: and outgoing communication every day. And Michael remind me of

750
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 2: his name, head of Disney, Eisner, Right, Michael Eisler is

751
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 2: copying in on everything. And I just started laughing. I said,

752
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 2: Michael Eisner can't possibly read everything that's going in and

753
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 2: out every day, and she said no, but nobody knows

754
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 2: what he does read, so it has the same effect.

755
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 2: So anyway, I was basically but this is by album two,

756
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 2: certainly by album. By making movies, I was dealing with

757
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 2: all the Phonogram companies direct everywhere. And when I say everywhere,

758
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 2: I dealt with the company in Israel, say, or a

759
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:14,720
Speaker 2: company in Malta or New Zealand. To me, every country

760
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 2: was as important as every other one. And Brothers in

761
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 2: Arms sold over four hundred and fifty thousand copies in

762
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 2: New Zealand. The soundtrack to Last Exit to Brooklyn, one

763
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 2: of our more obscure items, sold over one hundred and

764
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 2: fifty thousand in South Korea, So don't overlook everywhere. My

765
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 2: philosophy was, I'm going to make this act huge and

766
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 2: they're going to be huge worldwide, and they're going to

767
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 2: have a long career because I considered myself to be

768
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 2: one of them, and in fairness, they felt the same

769
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 2: about me.

770
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: Okay, now it comes time for the second album. How

771
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: do you cut it in the South? And you know,

772
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: in America, the albums came out almost back to back. Yes,

773
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: So what was the experience of the second record from

774
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:15,320
Speaker 1: the inside?

775
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 2: Very good question. Because of this split record deal, by accident,

776
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 2: we ended up with a situation where the second record

777
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 2: was recorded with Wexler and Barry Beckett at Compass Points

778
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 2: Studios in Nasaw Chris Blackwell's place, before the first record

779
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 2: had come out in the US. So we were in

780
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 2: this time lag as far as the US was concerned,

781
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 2: and having had an album that was very, very hot.

782
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 2: The problem, the problem with all first releases by any

783
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: act is if you get your first record away, it

784
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 2: might seem fantastic at the time, and it is, and

785
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 2: it jumps a lot of barriers in one go. But

786
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 2: then you've got this situation that you're alluding to, which

787
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 2: is the second one. I have Alanis Morrissette in mind

788
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 2: actually at this point, so we had Wexler, had got

789
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 2: his claws in. We go off to and he and

790
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 2: he's set, you know, he's laying out. We're going to

791
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 2: go to the Bahamas. I mean, none of us have

792
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 2: been to the Caribbean.

793
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: We hadn't.

794
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: We hadn't we hadn't been to the south coast of England.

795
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 2: We're going to be there, you're going to live here,

796
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 2: You're going to be We're going to brew on the

797
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 2: whole thing. And we fell for it hookline, and so

798
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 2: we went off to Compass Point and we made that.

799
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 2: You see, the Dye Strikes records were made very quickly.

800
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 2: First one twelve days including mixing, second one three weeks

801
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 2: including mixing. So we had a record ready to go

802
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 2: and the PolyGram territories were gagging for this record. Meanwhile,

803
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 2: the Warners people were not gagging for it. They wanted

804
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 2: to release at least they wanted to release Down to

805
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 2: the Waterline as an aside single and probably another track.

806
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 2: And it all led to a very embarrassing meeting in London.

807
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 2: Moe was there, rush Thyret was there, the Polyglots were there,

808
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 2: I don't remember which, and myself, And as this meeting

809
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 2: was progressing, I suddenly realized that the casting vote was

810
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 2: coming down to me. And of course I had the band.

811
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 2: When a band's made a record, they want the record out.

812
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 2: Well not in Brian Ferry's case, but everybody else wants

813
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 2: it out. And I could see both sides of the equation.

814
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 2: I'd already booked or put in place, or I could

815
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 2: have changed it all a whole British and European tour

816
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 2: to push this second record, you know, off along and

817
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 2: that meeting we made a mistake and I absolutely take

818
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 2: responsibility for it. It doesn't matter now, but we should have waited.

819
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 2: But the band now now we have to have it out.

820
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 2: They were already playing most of the songs on it.

821
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 2: A good number of the songs on the second record

822
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 2: were played on the first American tour because interesting thing

823
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 2: about America, I don't know if it's still true, but

824
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 2: the audiences were completely to do stuff that they'd never heard.

825
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 2: You know, in Manchester they want to hear the hits,

826
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 2: but they didn't care about that in Chicago. And we

827
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 2: decided to go with that second record in the autumn

828
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 2: of seventeen.

829
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 1: Was it.

830
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 2: I can't remember when it came out, yes, late seventy nine,

831
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 2: which and we had to do it worldwide because of

832
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: what we're called parallel imports. Back then, the Europeans would

833
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: deliberately try and import records into the US and I

834
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 2: just wish we hadn't done that. It just it created

835
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 2: a bad atmosphere with the senior management owners, which took

836
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 2: quite a bit of recovering, and I just instinctively was

837
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:04,919
Speaker 2: thinking this is wrong. But I didn't really have enough

838
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 2: experience at the time. I didn't I had never worked

839
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 2: with an act or a record that had been a

840
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 2: multiple singles record. In the UK, if you put out

841
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 2: an album, if you got one hit off it, you

842
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 2: were doing really well, and if you got two, that

843
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 2: was a miracle. Most acts didn't. Everybody was recording much

844
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 2: more quickly than they are now, and stuff was coming

845
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 2: out faster in this marketplace.

846
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: Okay, from my personal experience, I didn't like the second

847
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: record as much as the first. Not that it was bad.

848
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: You had this release thing. It wasn't really like a

849
01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 1: downhill slide, but there wasn't any increase in career momentum.

850
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 2: Correct.

851
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: What was it like from on the inside.

852
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you've yeah, that's the that's the nail that

853
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 2: you've squarely hit. Like many second albums by acts that

854
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 2: have big first albums, there was a I can't speak

855
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 2: for Mark personally, but he was using material that he

856
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 2: had rejected for the first one. He was being forced

857
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 2: not the right word, but he had He was having

858
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 2: to write on the tour bus in the hotel room,

859
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 2: the hour, the amount of time. You know, this is

860
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 2: all boxed in with shows, rehearsals, It's boxed in by interviews,

861
01:03:55,560 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 2: Telly's videos, and it was very much boxed in by

862
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 2: the personal relationship situation that was going on in the

863
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 2: group off the back of this huge first record. Because

864
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 2: that record, that first one, none of us quite knew

865
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 2: how to deal with it. It was and the way

866
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 2: it led to the issues between Mark and his younger brother,

867
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 2: which were already pretty fragile, really became quite difficult during

868
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 2: that period.

869
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: And I.

870
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 2: So so that record, and that record was when we

871
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 2: got there was quite an interesting little thing which might

872
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 2: address what you just asked me. When we got out

873
01:04:53,720 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 2: to Compass point, Uh, Distraits did not generally do demos,

874
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 2: so Jerry Wexler didn't know what the songs were. So

875
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 2: when we got there, I remember Mark and Jerry and

876
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 2: I must have been there, Mark kind of running the

877
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 2: songs down, just plunk in on a guitar, acoustic guitar

878
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 2: or whatever. And the next day was quite interesting to

879
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 2: us because we had never been worked with an American

880
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:33,640
Speaker 2: record company person, let alone a you know, famed legendary

881
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 2: producer and where's the saying to Mark, what strings did

882
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,479
Speaker 2: you use on the first album? How tar did you use?

883
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 2: What amplifier, what amplifier settings? All of this kind of stuff,

884
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 2: And it suddenly occurred, I think, to most of it, well,

885
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 2: certainly to Mark and I that he was trying to

886
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 2: copy the first one, but he wanted the sound to be,

887
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 2: as he put it, we're going to make a record

888
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 2: that's you know, good for American radio. So what he

889
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 2: was trying to do was kind of chip off the

890
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 2: the rougher edges and that's how it sounded. Yeah, which

891
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:25,919
Speaker 2: gave the first one it's kind of spirit. And that's

892
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 2: what happened.

893
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: Okay, So before the next album, David is no longer

894
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: in the band.

895
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 2: No, no, sorry, you're wrong. He left during the recording

896
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 2: of the third one.

897
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: Okay, how does that happen?

898
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 2: Well, the momentum of this thing, I mean, notwithstanding what

899
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 2: you made your comment about the if you like the

900
01:06:56,600 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 2: artistry of the second record, the second record just certainly

901
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 2: over here and in Europe and Australasia and so on,

902
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 2: just came out of the you know, like a shot

903
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 2: out of a cannon. I mean, we had that record

904
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 2: went straight in at number one in Germany and the

905
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 2: first album was at number two. That kind of thing.

906
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 2: So the Communicate record was successful, not as successful as

907
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 2: the first one, but it was. It sold in its

908
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 2: lifestyme lifetime eight eight million copies, first one in its

909
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 2: lifetime fifteen, so about half. And within the band myself,

910
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 2: we all understood that there was a danger of being

911
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 2: a one hit wonder kind of thing, and that record,

912
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 2: the second record, didn't have have a hit single on it,

913
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 2: and back then, hit singles were what you needed, so

914
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 2: we didn't have a songs of swing on it. I

915
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 2: can't even remember what the single was that came off.

916
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 2: It was it Once upon a Time in the West,

917
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 2: I can't remember, and it kind of I mean, we

918
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 2: were touring it and we were selling out shows, partly

919
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 2: because I always tried to keep the shows at the

920
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 2: right level for the time. So by that time we

921
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 2: were starting to do arenas, we were up from doing

922
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:49,720
Speaker 2: big theaters. If you like David Knopfler, I'm picking this

923
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 2: up from interviews i've seen him do since he said

924
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 2: to John Ellslie one day, I remember this. He said

925
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 2: something like, it wasn't supposed to be like this, and

926
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 2: what he meant by that was he wasn't supposed to

927
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 2: be as successful. And I remember getting into a bit

928
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:15,360
Speaker 2: of a fight with him about this. I said, well,

929
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:16,880
Speaker 2: what the fuck do you want? You want me to

930
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 2: make it less successful. He got really pissed off about

931
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 2: the amount of money that Warner Brothers were spending on

932
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 2: independent promotion, and he's saying stuff to me, like in

933
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 2: front of the others, like they're criminals. And I went, yeah,

934
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 2: So he says, you should be trying to stop you

935
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 2: should stop it. I said, I'm trying to get them

936
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 2: to spend more. And we got into a really and

937
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:45,679
Speaker 2: in the background I can hear Mark going shut up,

938
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:54,720
Speaker 2: shut the shut up. So David's philosophy about what dire

939
01:09:54,760 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 2: straits could would and could and should be, we actually

940
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:05,600
Speaker 2: defined what that was. What it wasn't was to be successful,

941
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 2: to have chart records, to be on the David Letterman Show,

942
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:14,800
Speaker 2: or whoever it was at the time, that kind of thing.

943
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:20,640
Speaker 2: And the two brothers. Some people in families get on

944
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 2: great and some don't. And they didn't and don't as

945
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 2: far as I know, they have not spoken to each

946
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 2: other in thirty years. Wow, which is a shame. It's silly.

947
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,479
Speaker 1: Was David pushed or did he jump? And if he

948
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:45,560
Speaker 1: was pushed, who told them?

949
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 2: You did say this was going to be deep, right,

950
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 2: So we go into the making movies record and I

951
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 2: one very single thing happened Mark Mark expanded the lineup

952
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:11,759
Speaker 2: of the group to include keyboards. Now in the first instance, well,

953
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 2: he and I went to New York in January of

954
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:20,200
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty and we were going to meet with John

955
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 2: Landaut to produce that third record. And John, who I

956
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:30,920
Speaker 2: have to say I really like, showed up for the

957
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 2: meeting on the wrong day, which did not auger well

958
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 2: because his pa had put the diary entry in wrong,

959
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 2: which apparently she regularly did. I guess she's not working

960
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 2: for him now. So he shows So we sit and wait.

961
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 2: We were staying at the Mayflower Hotel upon the Central

962
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:55,160
Speaker 2: Park West, and we sit and we wait. No John,

963
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:57,920
Speaker 2: So I ring the office and he comes on the

964
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 2: phone and I said, John, we've got a meeting with you.

965
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:04,280
Speaker 2: There's a silence, and then I hear a shit, she's

966
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 2: done it again. He came the next day and he

967
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 2: was making The River with Bruce and Chuck Blockin and

968
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 2: twenty seven other producers and he was shattered. I mean

969
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:25,280
Speaker 2: he looked on he looked unwell, and we got him

970
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 2: a cup of tea and a bun and I said

971
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:30,120
Speaker 2: to him, are you all right? Went I didn't get

972
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:34,720
Speaker 2: into I didn't get home till five am, and we

973
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 2: had this conversation and basically he could not fit our

974
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 2: record well. He didn't have a schedule, he had no

975
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 2: idea when the River was going to be finished. They'd

976
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:49,720
Speaker 2: already been working on it for about a year. And

977
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 2: if I remember correctly, it's a double album. I think

978
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:55,720
Speaker 2: it was a double album. Yeah. So, and they were

979
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 2: up at the power station, which is where we used

980
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 2: to work. So he mentioned Jimmy Iven and when we

981
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:13,840
Speaker 2: were doing the Communicator, the play on music that the

982
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 2: band used to bring them on stage was because the

983
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:24,799
Speaker 2: night which Jimmy of course had produced with Patti Smith.

984
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 2: And we're sitting there and so again, long story short,

985
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 2: I got hold of Jimmy on John's recommendation, and a

986
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 2: small man dressed entirely in yellow with a yellow cap

987
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 2: and yellow shades in a yellow car arrives and hops

988
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 2: out and starts talking like he's been swimming in shark

989
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 2: infested waters. And one of them's got his balls. Hi,

990
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:04,760
Speaker 2: how you doing, Jimmy, And he's like, I mean, I

991
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:05,799
Speaker 2: thought he was on speed.

992
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:06,559
Speaker 1: It wasn't.

993
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:11,360
Speaker 2: That's just his personality to Blessing and the two of them,

994
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 2: we all got on. He recommended the power station. We

995
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:18,040
Speaker 2: went up to the power station to have to check

996
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:20,960
Speaker 2: it out, which ironically was where Mark met his wife,

997
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 2: his first wife Lords And it was funny because when

998
01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 2: we got there, I just told me later that she

999
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 2: thought that I was Mark and Mark was me, and

1000
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:32,960
Speaker 2: I was going, how how could that be? Anyway, we

1001
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:37,040
Speaker 2: liked the studio, Jimmy was available. I managed to do

1002
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 2: a deal with a manager who I'm not going to mention,

1003
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:46,599
Speaker 2: who was a complete chump. And it was Jimmy who

1004
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:51,759
Speaker 2: recommended Roy Bitten from the Eas Street Band, who couldn't

1005
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:55,519
Speaker 2: have been better. It was absolutely ideal and he was

1006
01:14:55,720 --> 01:15:00,599
Speaker 2: fast and he got it straight away. He understand exactly.

1007
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:06,360
Speaker 2: Roy understood exactly what was needed. He had he wasn't.

1008
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 2: He had a break that was sufficiently long to do

1009
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:13,599
Speaker 2: the tracking and so on. So we started. We booked

1010
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:17,880
Speaker 2: in there in That was January. We booked in there

1011
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:20,799
Speaker 2: and I think it was something like April, May, June,

1012
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:23,719
Speaker 2: something like that. And when I got back to England,

1013
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 2: the guys got together and started rehearsing up the songs

1014
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:30,799
Speaker 2: that became the Making Movies record, which and I generally

1015
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:35,480
Speaker 2: did not attend rehearsals because why you know, that's a rehearsal.

1016
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:39,160
Speaker 2: And I remember very clearly John Elsey rand mid day

1017
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 2: one day and he said, right, we're ready for you,

1018
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:45,600
Speaker 2: which was me being summoned. And I went down to

1019
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:50,200
Speaker 2: this tiny rehearsal studio in by the Cutty Sark the

1020
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 2: ship on the Thames place called the wood Wharf, which

1021
01:15:55,360 --> 01:16:00,599
Speaker 2: probably wasn't twenty foot square, and they played Tunnel Love

1022
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:05,759
Speaker 2: Love and Romeo and Juliet with another keyboard player, Alan Clark,

1023
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 2: who we'd found somebody in my office had found and

1024
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 2: he'd come in and they played it like there were

1025
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 2: ten thousand people in the room and we when he

1026
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 2: got to the end of Romeo and Juliet, I knew

1027
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:26,799
Speaker 2: that we were back, artistically speaking, and I was totally

1028
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:31,639
Speaker 2: blown away by it. I thought that I thought Romeo

1029
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:36,120
Speaker 2: and Juliet was just fantastic lyric. There's a line in

1030
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 2: that song you and me babe, how about it?

1031
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 1: Right?

1032
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 2: A great, great line, how many times have we all

1033
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:46,680
Speaker 2: said that and all been told now fuck off? So

1034
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:52,479
Speaker 2: we made we went off to New York made that

1035
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:57,880
Speaker 2: record with Roy. I did have a bit of a

1036
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,679
Speaker 2: problem with Jimmy because I had to have the phones

1037
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:04,800
Speaker 2: cut off into the studio because Jimmy would produce in

1038
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:08,720
Speaker 2: between the phone calls. So he was trying. He had,

1039
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 2: he had, he had this, he had, he was spending

1040
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:19,120
Speaker 2: these plates he'd got Stevie NICKX was one plate. Bob Seger.

1041
01:17:19,200 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 2: I think he was sort of checking in discussions with

1042
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 2: of course Bruce. I can't remember who else, but he was.

1043
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 2: He was. He was always worried Jimmy. I hope he

1044
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:35,800
Speaker 2: isn't now because he's got so much money and a

1045
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:40,920
Speaker 2: very beautiful wife. But then he was desperately insecure, desperately

1046
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:44,600
Speaker 2: and every night he would we would walk up the

1047
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:47,280
Speaker 2: street and he would ask me the same question, what's

1048
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:51,360
Speaker 2: going to happen to me? And I used to use

1049
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 2: that line, Charles Dickens line from mister Micawber. I said,

1050
01:17:56,280 --> 01:18:01,519
Speaker 2: now something will turn up. Something did turn up. But

1051
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:06,680
Speaker 2: he was He and Shelley Yakas, who did the engineering

1052
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:10,280
Speaker 2: on that, were great, But the problem was that they

1053
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 2: approached it from the perspective of the American hit record producers. So,

1054
01:18:16,160 --> 01:18:19,599
Speaker 2: for instance, we had a drum kit in there made

1055
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 2: up of other people's drum kit. We had Max Weinberg's

1056
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,679
Speaker 2: snare drum, and we had Steve Gadd's floor tom tom,

1057
01:18:28,280 --> 01:18:32,160
Speaker 2: and we had somebody else's whatever and so and so,

1058
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:34,720
Speaker 2: and picked with us was getting that. Our drummer was

1059
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:40,840
Speaker 2: really ticked off with this. And we spent eight days

1060
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 2: doing the drum sound. And on the ninth day we

1061
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:47,760
Speaker 2: took a lunch break and Pitch stayed behind and he

1062
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:52,400
Speaker 2: retuned and reset every piece of that drum kit, and

1063
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:57,479
Speaker 2: we came back and Iven literally produced an austri egg.

1064
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 2: He went absolutely nuts. The funny thing about those two

1065
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 2: guys was that every day they would they had two

1066
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 2: dog dog bowls that you would feed a dog, your

1067
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:18,280
Speaker 2: pet dog with, and Shelley would empty an entire bottle

1068
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:23,400
Speaker 2: of bee pollen tablets into each one, and then he'd

1069
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 2: mix it up with some alfalfa sprouts and they'd eat

1070
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,320
Speaker 2: the whole lot. Now, bee pollen is a very very

1071
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:33,599
Speaker 2: effective but very powerful vitimin, and you're supposed to take

1072
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:37,960
Speaker 2: one or two a day, and they were taking bottles

1073
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:41,720
Speaker 2: so and it had the effect, the speed effect, but

1074
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:44,360
Speaker 2: it wasn't speed, it was out. It was bee pollen.

1075
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:49,760
Speaker 2: And the two of them were like And in the

1076
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 2: end I just had to disconnect the phone because we could.

1077
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:57,120
Speaker 2: We didn't have that much money then it hadn't flowed through.

1078
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 2: And you know, the pastage was expensive. Jimmy was fairly expensive.

1079
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:10,640
Speaker 2: And they went the way they went about. Everything was

1080
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 2: full on. You know, it's like this, We've got to

1081
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:18,600
Speaker 2: get this done. There's no fucking about, you know, you

1082
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:21,519
Speaker 2: can't go and have a break now all this, and

1083
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 2: Jimmy got very frustrated with David Nofler. David was arguing constantly,

1084
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:36,479
Speaker 2: this is not the way it's supposed to be and

1085
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:39,519
Speaker 2: all this kind of stuff. Why are we staying at

1086
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:43,280
Speaker 2: the Mayflower? We should be staying at Missus Miggins's guesthouse

1087
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:48,599
Speaker 2: down the street. We're spending too much money. And this

1088
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:52,680
Speaker 2: was really starting to get on everybody else's you know,

1089
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 2: as we say in England, everybody else's tits, and in

1090
01:20:57,120 --> 01:21:03,080
Speaker 2: particular it was really starting to bug Mark. I mean,

1091
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:09,400
Speaker 2: it was already pretty the relationship was just not working.

1092
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:13,880
Speaker 2: And there came the famous occasion or infamous occasion where

1093
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 2: Mark said to him, I wasn't there for this particular episode.

1094
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:20,720
Speaker 2: Thank god. Mark said to him, right, he said, I

1095
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:23,679
Speaker 2: want you to go back to the hotel. I want

1096
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:27,720
Speaker 2: you to rehearse your part on Romeo and Juliet and

1097
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:31,760
Speaker 2: come in tomorrow and we'll do it. And David just

1098
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 2: rolled his eyes, and then we all went off for

1099
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:37,599
Speaker 2: the evening to do whatever we were doing, which might

1100
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 2: be just having a meal or going to a club,

1101
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:43,640
Speaker 2: or I'll tell you a short aside. It might be

1102
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:48,640
Speaker 2: interesting to you just going back to communicate because it

1103
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:54,920
Speaker 2: just came into my mind. Jerry Wexler took Mark and

1104
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:59,240
Speaker 2: I out one night clubbing, but I don't mean disco clubbing,

1105
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:03,120
Speaker 2: I mean music clubbing. And we went and we saw

1106
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:09,559
Speaker 2: James Blood, Olma and Cindy Lauper, and Cindy was singing

1107
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:15,519
Speaker 2: with a group I think they were called Blue.

1108
01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. That was when she had her deal with PolyGram.

1109
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:23,679
Speaker 2: And she did a fantastic version of a Gene Pitney

1110
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:27,880
Speaker 2: song called I Want to Be Strong. Absolutely blew us

1111
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 2: out of our chairs. And we went back to Wexler's

1112
01:22:33,280 --> 01:22:36,439
Speaker 2: apartment and he said, which one of those do you

1113
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:39,240
Speaker 2: think I should sign and Mark and I both went,

1114
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:43,320
Speaker 2: you gotta sign that girl. That girl is ridiculous singer.

1115
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:46,479
Speaker 2: And he goes, no, No, I'm going to sign James

1116
01:22:46,479 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 2: blood Olma, which he did, so Cindy got to go

1117
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:54,920
Speaker 2: with whoever it was anyway, Sorry, So coming back to

1118
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:55,879
Speaker 2: what you were asking.

1119
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 1: The name of the band was Blue Angel.

1120
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 2: Thank you Blue Angel. Yes. So the next day arrives

1121
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:07,320
Speaker 2: and Mark David shows up and Mark says to him,

1122
01:23:07,439 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 2: did you practice your part like I told you? And

1123
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 2: David goes no, and everybody in the room went So

1124
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:20,719
Speaker 2: he goes into the studio and he starts tuning his guitar,

1125
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:26,519
Speaker 2: or rather he doesn't tune his guitar. And this has

1126
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:28,840
Speaker 2: gone on for about half an hour. I got all

1127
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:35,240
Speaker 2: from John later on, and finally Mark hit the talk

1128
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 2: back and he said to him, David, shit, I'll get

1129
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:41,160
Speaker 2: off the pot. And David turned round and used a

1130
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:45,439
Speaker 2: word I can't say on your podcast, and Mark just

1131
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 2: stood up, took his coat off the hook on the

1132
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:51,320
Speaker 2: back of the door, put his coat on, and turned

1133
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:53,559
Speaker 2: round to this room of people who had their mouth

1134
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:57,719
Speaker 2: literally open, and said, I'm not working with him anymore.

1135
01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:03,280
Speaker 2: I'm going back to the hotel and walked out, so

1136
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:09,720
Speaker 2: everybody Ivan laid another egg. Everybody went back to the

1137
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:17,679
Speaker 2: hotel and Mark sorry, David and John Illslie had a

1138
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:21,320
Speaker 2: conversation and basically John said, look, you got a choice.

1139
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:24,800
Speaker 2: You can either make up with Mark and stay or

1140
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 2: leave and because and David said, I'll leave. And that

1141
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 2: was when I got on the phone call. I was

1142
01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:35,479
Speaker 2: on the West coast at that point, David's leaving the

1143
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:40,760
Speaker 2: group and actually I just went, oh, great, thank god

1144
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 2: for that, because I knew that if he had stayed,

1145
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 2: it would have fallen to bits. I'm not saying it

1146
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 2: wouldn't have reconstructed, but at that moment it was very

1147
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:55,599
Speaker 2: close to just collapsing because Pink our Drama was ready

1148
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 2: to go because of David.

1149
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:11,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Okay, that album comes out with not gigantic expectations

1150
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:14,280
Speaker 1: in the US. Once again, the Europe is a different market.

1151
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 1: It's got a more vibrant, impactful, direct sound. If you

1152
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 1: bought the record when it came out, you were quite stunned,

1153
01:25:25,960 --> 01:25:29,040
Speaker 1: especially with Romeo and Juliet, and from my perspective, it

1154
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:32,920
Speaker 1: percolated slowly to become bigger and bigger and bigger. What

1155
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:35,160
Speaker 1: was your perspective on the inside.

1156
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 2: You pretty much described it. I mean, we didn't have

1157
01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:44,600
Speaker 2: the Communicate setback in the rest of the world territories.

1158
01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:47,680
Speaker 2: And when do you talk about Europe, I don't want to.

1159
01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:49,640
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to correct you, but I only I

1160
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:51,920
Speaker 2: think of the rest of the world, because it wasn't

1161
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:55,879
Speaker 2: just Europe. It was Australasia, it was Japan, it was Canada,

1162
01:25:56,160 --> 01:26:01,320
Speaker 2: all of these territories, parts of South America were always

1163
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:05,840
Speaker 2: going great guns for us. So the Communicate record and

1164
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,439
Speaker 2: because of the touring off the back of it and

1165
01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:12,360
Speaker 2: keeping them in front of their fan base which was growing.

1166
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:21,559
Speaker 2: When the third one came out, the decision was made

1167
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:25,960
Speaker 2: the record companies. I never tried to impose singles on

1168
01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:29,240
Speaker 2: record companies because they have to do the work. I

1169
01:26:29,320 --> 01:26:31,519
Speaker 2: only did that once, and we're going to come to that.

1170
01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:40,000
Speaker 2: But I thought Romeo and Juliet as a song was

1171
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:45,280
Speaker 2: utterly brilliant, and I did kind of push for that

1172
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:48,479
Speaker 2: to be the single. And it was one of those things.

1173
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:50,640
Speaker 2: And I'm going to tell you something which even the

1174
01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:54,759
Speaker 2: band members don't know. Of course, the record company wanted

1175
01:26:54,760 --> 01:27:00,720
Speaker 2: an edit, and I said to the guy from Phonogram

1176
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:05,639
Speaker 2: in London. I said, we didn't have this conversation. If

1177
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 2: I ever hear about it, I will deny you and

1178
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 2: I spoke about it. Do you have you got the message?

1179
01:27:12,600 --> 01:27:15,920
Speaker 2: And he said I think so. So we put out

1180
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:18,280
Speaker 2: an edited version because I knew radio was going to

1181
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:25,479
Speaker 2: edit it anyway, and it became it went well in

1182
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:31,519
Speaker 2: the UK. It got up to about number three, and

1183
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:33,920
Speaker 2: and again we were off touring again. I mean, it

1184
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:40,840
Speaker 2: was just the touring was relentless. And about a year later,

1185
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:43,880
Speaker 2: John Nilsey said to me, took me aside somewhere, He said,

1186
01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:48,559
Speaker 2: did you tell Phonogram that they could edit Romeo and Juliet?

1187
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:56,400
Speaker 2: And I went, He said, well, obviously you did. I said,

1188
01:27:56,439 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 2: have you mentioned that to Mark? He said no, and

1189
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:03,000
Speaker 2: I'm not going he did exactly the right thing. So

1190
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:07,200
Speaker 2: and the unlikely event Mark's watching this, that's why anyway,

1191
01:28:07,360 --> 01:28:12,880
Speaker 2: it didn't matter. So that became a hit. A Tunnel

1192
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:16,000
Speaker 2: of Love became a hit as parts one and two.

1193
01:28:17,439 --> 01:28:21,559
Speaker 2: It's like Big Noise from Winnetka Part one kind of thing.

1194
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:24,479
Speaker 2: There was a song on that album I thought was

1195
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:26,600
Speaker 2: a hit song. It was not released, and that was

1196
01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:30,000
Speaker 2: a song called Hand in Hand. Had a good chorus.

1197
01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 2: But anyway, that record got us back for sure.

1198
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:39,200
Speaker 1: Before we go forward, let's go back. How did Knappler

1199
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:42,120
Speaker 1: end Mark Knopfler end up working with Bob Dylan? And

1200
01:28:42,160 --> 01:28:43,639
Speaker 1: what was your experience there?

1201
01:28:47,240 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 2: Sorry, okay, this is welcome to Comedy Hour Central, Jerry Wexler.

1202
01:28:56,920 --> 01:29:01,280
Speaker 2: We are playing in at the Rocks See in La

1203
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 2: on the first American tour, which is packed wall to

1204
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:11,640
Speaker 2: wall with faces I believe you call them. I remember

1205
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:15,280
Speaker 2: Stevin Nix getting up and doing her Rihanna dance and

1206
01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:20,760
Speaker 2: being pelted with plastic cups and sit down, yes, silly cow,

1207
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:24,360
Speaker 2: and all of this, and I remember all of the

1208
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:28,679
Speaker 2: members of the band, Robbie and all of them been there,

1209
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:32,840
Speaker 2: and all of these other characters. And we were doing

1210
01:29:32,840 --> 01:29:40,400
Speaker 2: two shows a night there. This was in end of

1211
01:29:40,400 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 2: March seventeen, end of March eighty. I think I got

1212
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:46,760
Speaker 2: my caronology might be wrong.

1213
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:48,160
Speaker 1: I think a little before that.

1214
01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:53,360
Speaker 2: I was seventy nine. Sorry, you're right. And we went

1215
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:56,320
Speaker 2: up to on the Rocks upstairs for a drink in

1216
01:29:56,360 --> 01:30:00,840
Speaker 2: between the shows, and there was Bob or as we

1217
01:30:00,960 --> 01:30:06,320
Speaker 2: call him, rambling, and with wait.

1218
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:08,919
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait, why do you call him rambling?

1219
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:12,640
Speaker 2: In the sixties, anybody of my generation who listened to

1220
01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:16,160
Speaker 2: British radio would have listened to a satirical radio show

1221
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:20,400
Speaker 2: on a Sunday called Round the Horn, which featured a

1222
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:26,400
Speaker 2: spoof folks singer called Rambling sid Rumpole. You can find

1223
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 2: this stuff on YouTube or whatever, and Rambling sid Rumpole

1224
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 2: was played by a wonderful actor called Kenneth Williams, Who's

1225
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:39,040
Speaker 2: Who's who would vocalize everything like a person from the

1226
01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 2: West Country of England.

1227
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:41,599
Speaker 1: So what are right?

1228
01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:43,479
Speaker 2: Or like that? You know, what are you mean? I'm

1229
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:46,519
Speaker 2: going to sing you a song now. It's called the Toymes.

1230
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:51,080
Speaker 2: They are a changing. He would do a spoof. So

1231
01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 2: Mark and I just started calling Bob Rambling. Bob had

1232
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:58,040
Speaker 2: no idea. He thought we were talking about rambling Jack

1233
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:02,560
Speaker 2: Elliottly I bought him a box set of the cassettes

1234
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:08,479
Speaker 2: of this show, but it just went straight over. So anyway,

1235
01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:12,120
Speaker 2: we go upstairs and Wexler's there with Bob, and of

1236
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:17,559
Speaker 2: course Bob is Mark's biggest influence. Stroke call him an

1237
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:22,320
Speaker 2: idol exactly, but you know, Bob to Mark was what

1238
01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:25,320
Speaker 2: Elvis was to be kind of thing or Buddy Rich

1239
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:30,360
Speaker 2: to me. And they met and went for a huddle,

1240
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:36,240
Speaker 2: and the next thing I know is that Dylan is

1241
01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:41,800
Speaker 2: doing an album in Muscle Shoals. Jerry's going to produce it.

1242
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:46,679
Speaker 2: This is taking place in April May of seventy nine,

1243
01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:56,840
Speaker 2: and we conveniently had a gap in touring, and it's

1244
01:31:56,880 --> 01:31:59,760
Speaker 2: agreed that Mark's going to play on this record. And

1245
01:31:59,800 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 2: Mark recommends pick with us our drummer, quite rightly, absolutely

1246
01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:10,160
Speaker 2: ideal for that. I didn't go down there, I had

1247
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:12,960
Speaker 2: I was also managing Jerry Rafferty at the time, who

1248
01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:14,760
Speaker 2: was pretty big, and I had quite a lot of

1249
01:32:14,880 --> 01:32:17,639
Speaker 2: stuff to do in La. So they went off down

1250
01:32:17,680 --> 01:32:28,000
Speaker 2: to two Muscle Shoals. Tim Drummond played bass, There were

1251
01:32:28,040 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 2: a couple of backing girls. I can't remember who else

1252
01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:34,880
Speaker 2: was on that record. It was oh and what happened

1253
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:38,320
Speaker 2: was that's right. So I was in LA or New

1254
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:41,439
Speaker 2: York wherever, and Mark called me he'd been there about

1255
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:45,439
Speaker 2: three days. Nah, sorry, got this wrong. He went to

1256
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:48,800
Speaker 2: Santa Monica to Bob's place to routine the songs, and

1257
01:32:48,880 --> 01:32:50,880
Speaker 2: I was in New York and he rang me and

1258
01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:55,000
Speaker 2: he said, he said, all these songs are about God.

1259
01:32:56,120 --> 01:33:02,320
Speaker 2: And I went what he said, They're about odd when

1260
01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:06,680
Speaker 2: but he's Jewish, isn't he? And Mark went, Mark's whispering

1261
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:08,880
Speaker 2: to me like there's other and I said, why are

1262
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:13,760
Speaker 2: you whispering? He went, oh, well, he said, he said yeah.

1263
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:18,160
Speaker 2: And this was because Bob's Born Again record. So they

1264
01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:22,320
Speaker 2: went down there and I had arranged to go down

1265
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:28,559
Speaker 2: to join them. And this was probably eight days, right Mark,

1266
01:33:28,600 --> 01:33:30,360
Speaker 2: I said, I'll be down tomorrow. He said, don't bother

1267
01:33:30,439 --> 01:33:33,639
Speaker 2: coming And I said, but why, He said, we're done,

1268
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:36,400
Speaker 2: We're finished. I said, you've on him been there eight

1269
01:33:36,479 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 2: days and he said, Bob only plays a song twice.

1270
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:52,120
Speaker 2: So they did that record in eight days. And I

1271
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:55,840
Speaker 2: don't think. I don't think anybody got paid for it.

1272
01:33:55,880 --> 01:34:03,960
Speaker 2: Seemed utterly redundant to be seeking payment. And it came

1273
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:08,000
Speaker 2: out and it did as Bob Dylan records do it

1274
01:34:08,040 --> 01:34:10,240
Speaker 2: for the time that it did pretty well, I think

1275
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:14,320
Speaker 2: from what I recall. I mean, I've met Dylan several times,

1276
01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:16,040
Speaker 2: but if I you know, if I walked up to

1277
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:18,280
Speaker 2: him now, he wouldn't have a clue who I am.

1278
01:34:18,320 --> 01:34:24,760
Speaker 2: And that's fine, no problem. And that was that was that,

1279
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:28,280
Speaker 2: and then and then we were all. Mark had to

1280
01:34:28,320 --> 01:34:30,519
Speaker 2: come back to Europe because we were starting a German

1281
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:33,960
Speaker 2: tour around about mid May, so they fitted it into

1282
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:38,320
Speaker 2: that gap that they Of course, there was a different

1283
01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:41,360
Speaker 2: situation with the Infidels record, which came along later on.

1284
01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 2: And Mark and Bob are good friends as far as

1285
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:50,480
Speaker 2: I know, Yeah, well, I know they are, Yeah, they are, Okay.

1286
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:55,720
Speaker 1: How does Mark end up as the sole producer of

1287
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:59,320
Speaker 1: Love of Gold? And is there a pushback from the

1288
01:34:59,479 --> 01:35:03,559
Speaker 1: label over the length of the song? Certainly opening track

1289
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:09,759
Speaker 1: Telegraph wrote.

1290
01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:10,599
Speaker 2: It became the sole producer because he said, I'm going

1291
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:20,880
Speaker 2: to be the sole producer. That record was originally going

1292
01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:25,000
Speaker 2: to be a double album. There were a ton more

1293
01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:30,600
Speaker 2: songs that were recorded, and I can remember in the

1294
01:35:30,640 --> 01:35:35,440
Speaker 2: world sometimes you when you're a manager, you have to

1295
01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:40,400
Speaker 2: save the act from themselves. I'd say that's quite a

1296
01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:45,600
Speaker 2: prominent part of the job. I don't mean artistically, but

1297
01:35:45,760 --> 01:35:49,960
Speaker 2: in this case, there was a whole conversation that went on.

1298
01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:52,920
Speaker 2: I remember I was in the back of a car

1299
01:35:53,600 --> 01:35:55,760
Speaker 2: about the cost this is a ship that we had

1300
01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:59,360
Speaker 2: to deal with back then, the cost of cardboard for

1301
01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:05,080
Speaker 2: a double hours album, the cost of inner bags, lyric sheets,

1302
01:36:05,920 --> 01:36:12,400
Speaker 2: the pricing, retail pricing. I've always been very conscious of that.

1303
01:36:12,439 --> 01:36:19,200
Speaker 2: I always lean towards don't bleed people money wise. I mean,

1304
01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:22,439
Speaker 2: it's a separate subject. But the whole ticketing thing at

1305
01:36:22,439 --> 01:36:25,840
Speaker 2: the moment is I think it's completely bonkers. It's sort

1306
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:29,679
Speaker 2: of it's sort of almost surreal, but the public seemed

1307
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:30,680
Speaker 2: to put up with it.

1308
01:36:31,360 --> 01:36:35,240
Speaker 1: Okay, just go sideways for a second. Your take on ticketing,

1309
01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:39,919
Speaker 1: Arthur Fogel.

1310
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:44,320
Speaker 2: I also do interviews like you, well, not like you.

1311
01:36:45,840 --> 01:36:50,280
Speaker 1: Arthur Fogel, who basically runs the international touring of big

1312
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:51,280
Speaker 1: acts for Live Nation.

1313
01:36:51,720 --> 01:36:54,439
Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, he said to eat something up beautifully. I

1314
01:36:54,479 --> 01:36:56,760
Speaker 2: interviewed him a few years ago. He said everything at

1315
01:36:56,800 --> 01:37:03,120
Speaker 2: the top is underpriced and everything else is overpriced, which

1316
01:37:03,160 --> 01:37:06,600
Speaker 2: I thought was quite a good thing. I think that

1317
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:12,719
Speaker 2: ticketing is this is a this is a very long conversation, Bob.

1318
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:16,360
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's move on, because I want to get through.

1319
01:37:17,960 --> 01:37:19,919
Speaker 2: You were asked me about Love of a Golden Production.

1320
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:27,439
Speaker 2: They by this time, we were we had basically become

1321
01:37:27,479 --> 01:37:31,519
Speaker 2: the biggest act as on the PolyGram label, certainly at

1322
01:37:31,560 --> 01:37:34,600
Speaker 2: that moment in time, or well on the way to

1323
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:37,120
Speaker 2: becoming the only act I can think of who might

1324
01:37:37,160 --> 01:37:39,479
Speaker 2: have been a bigger record seller back then would have

1325
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:44,080
Speaker 2: been Elton John who was a label mate of ours,

1326
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:52,080
Speaker 2: and I just made the decision that he was going

1327
01:37:52,120 --> 01:37:55,679
Speaker 2: to produce it. He I can't remember how we met

1328
01:37:55,760 --> 01:38:00,720
Speaker 2: Neil Dorfsman. I think we met Neil Dorsman during the

1329
01:38:00,720 --> 01:38:05,800
Speaker 2: making of the Local Hero movie soundtrack, which just preceded

1330
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:12,160
Speaker 2: the Love of a Gold record, and no sorry, Love

1331
01:38:12,200 --> 01:38:15,519
Speaker 2: of a Gold Sorry. Local Hero came after, just right after,

1332
01:38:18,400 --> 01:38:27,479
Speaker 2: and by this time David had left the group. I

1333
01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:30,120
Speaker 2: didn't know it at the time, but Pick had decided

1334
01:38:30,160 --> 01:38:32,680
Speaker 2: to do that record and leave the group, which he

1335
01:38:32,720 --> 01:38:37,400
Speaker 2: did immediately after he'd finished his parts. Quite a crafty

1336
01:38:37,439 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 2: little economic decision on his part, and they made a record,

1337
01:38:48,200 --> 01:38:51,160
Speaker 2: as I say, which had quite a number of more

1338
01:38:51,200 --> 01:38:54,000
Speaker 2: songs than the ones that finally ended up on it.

1339
01:38:57,200 --> 01:39:00,960
Speaker 2: And I had heard bits and pieces. The Telegraph Road

1340
01:39:01,840 --> 01:39:06,439
Speaker 2: first appeared on the first Australian tour we did. I

1341
01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:09,760
Speaker 2: remember being in the venue in Perth with just the

1342
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:15,680
Speaker 2: crew guys, actually probably just the sound guy, and they

1343
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:18,240
Speaker 2: played it the whole thing. I was just sitting in

1344
01:39:18,280 --> 01:39:21,600
Speaker 2: the stalls and I just ran onto the stage and

1345
01:39:21,600 --> 01:39:24,160
Speaker 2: I went, what on earth is that? And that was

1346
01:39:26,439 --> 01:39:29,439
Speaker 2: Telegraph Road incidentally, is in Detroit. It's the name of

1347
01:39:29,479 --> 01:39:32,519
Speaker 2: the Ring road that goes around Detroit. And I had

1348
01:39:32,520 --> 01:39:34,800
Speaker 2: been sitting next to Mark on the bus as we

1349
01:39:34,800 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 2: were making our way to a venue in the pouring rain,

1350
01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:40,320
Speaker 2: and we were stuck in a traffic jam, and he

1351
01:39:40,360 --> 01:39:43,120
Speaker 2: had a piece of paper and he wrote down on

1352
01:39:43,160 --> 01:39:46,799
Speaker 2: the piece of paper six lanes of traffic, three lanes

1353
01:39:46,840 --> 01:39:50,600
Speaker 2: moving slow, and folded it up and put it in

1354
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:54,519
Speaker 2: his pocket. And I heard it coming back at me

1355
01:39:55,040 --> 01:40:02,439
Speaker 2: months later. So we did that record, and you would

1356
01:40:02,520 --> 01:40:07,120
Speaker 2: ask me about the length of things. By this time,

1357
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:13,759
Speaker 2: the way that people dealt with me had markedly changed.

1358
01:40:15,680 --> 01:40:19,439
Speaker 2: I don't mean that I was I didn't. I wasn't

1359
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:22,080
Speaker 2: one of these shouters and screamers and all of that.

1360
01:40:22,240 --> 01:40:26,080
Speaker 2: But the you know, this was a big thing for

1361
01:40:26,160 --> 01:40:33,280
Speaker 2: the phonogram companies, particularly Phonogram had a not Phonogram, PolyGram

1362
01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:39,640
Speaker 2: UK Phonegram is one of the labels, had a wonderful president,

1363
01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:44,880
Speaker 2: guy called Ramon Lopez, Spanish guy. And I took that

1364
01:40:44,960 --> 01:40:48,480
Speaker 2: record into play to Ramon, just me and him, and

1365
01:40:48,479 --> 01:40:51,360
Speaker 2: he put it on and he played the whole album through,

1366
01:40:52,439 --> 01:40:55,320
Speaker 2: and I'll never forget what he said to me. He said,

1367
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:57,519
Speaker 2: I want to do a Spanish accent. He said, ed,

1368
01:40:58,720 --> 01:41:02,320
Speaker 2: this is not pop me sick, this is classical music.

1369
01:41:03,560 --> 01:41:08,800
Speaker 2: And I went and he said, we are going to

1370
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:12,719
Speaker 2: make this the most successful record we have ever had.

1371
01:41:13,200 --> 01:41:17,760
Speaker 2: And I'm like because he fucking loved it and he

1372
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:25,839
Speaker 2: could see that it represented a kind of very different,

1373
01:41:26,280 --> 01:41:29,000
Speaker 2: you know, not many bad. It had been a long

1374
01:41:29,080 --> 01:41:33,679
Speaker 2: time since Aguarda di Vida, so having this mega track.

1375
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:40,439
Speaker 2: I then went up to Scotland where Mark was. We well,

1376
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:44,000
Speaker 2: actually we both went up for the We went to

1377
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:53,200
Speaker 2: the set of Local Hero, which David Putnam was producing

1378
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:58,639
Speaker 2: and on the first so we got up there, staying

1379
01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:01,200
Speaker 2: in this poky little hotel with the cast and crew,

1380
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:04,479
Speaker 2: and at breakfast the following morning, Mark said to me,

1381
01:42:04,960 --> 01:42:07,679
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you to do something you don't

1382
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:11,719
Speaker 2: want to do. And I said, we are not having

1383
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:17,800
Speaker 2: sex anyway, no, no, no, no no. I said, you

1384
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 2: want me to get the record companies to put Private

1385
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:24,760
Speaker 2: Investigations out as the first single without an edit. And

1386
01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:27,040
Speaker 2: he said, how do you know, I said, because it

1387
01:42:27,160 --> 01:42:31,719
Speaker 2: is fucking brilliant. It's totally brilliant. If you're a manager,

1388
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:34,839
Speaker 2: you work with what your artist gives you. And if Heaven,

1389
01:42:35,920 --> 01:42:44,240
Speaker 2: Thank Heaven. You love it as a fan, almost not commercially,

1390
01:42:44,479 --> 01:42:47,280
Speaker 2: you just love it as a piece of music. And

1391
01:42:47,360 --> 01:42:52,400
Speaker 2: I thought it was utterly, absolutely brilliant. And he said yes,

1392
01:42:52,479 --> 01:42:55,280
Speaker 2: he said, can you do that? I said yes, I said,

1393
01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:59,080
Speaker 2: but there's going to be some pushback on it. When

1394
01:42:59,120 --> 01:43:01,439
Speaker 2: I finally got back down to London and I took

1395
01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 2: the record into play to the London Phonogram company and

1396
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:10,120
Speaker 2: it was then that I played it to ram On.

1397
01:43:10,280 --> 01:43:14,439
Speaker 2: I just got the chronology wrong. The head of radio promotion,

1398
01:43:14,560 --> 01:43:20,000
Speaker 2: who I won't name, said to me. I said to them,

1399
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:21,800
Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to ask you to do so

1400
01:43:22,280 --> 01:43:24,920
Speaker 2: you're not going to want to do. Said, I want

1401
01:43:24,960 --> 01:43:29,920
Speaker 2: you to put that second track Private Investigations out. It's

1402
01:43:29,960 --> 01:43:33,360
Speaker 2: the first single without an edit, and it's seven minutes long.

1403
01:43:34,840 --> 01:43:38,000
Speaker 2: And the head of radio promotions said to me, we

1404
01:43:38,040 --> 01:43:43,040
Speaker 2: can't do that. People will ring up their radio stations

1405
01:43:43,200 --> 01:43:48,439
Speaker 2: and think that something's gone wrong. And I went, what why.

1406
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 2: He said, because it stops. I said, yes, those are

1407
01:43:53,520 --> 01:44:00,320
Speaker 2: called rest periods. Because I was an it's a bit

1408
01:44:00,400 --> 01:44:05,240
Speaker 2: sip teeny bit ticked the managing director. Then one of

1409
01:44:06,400 --> 01:44:12,759
Speaker 2: this endless literally of managing directors I was. He said, okay,

1410
01:44:13,080 --> 01:44:16,200
Speaker 2: we'll do that. I said, I know, it's a risk.

1411
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:20,240
Speaker 2: I said, this that will be as big as MacArthur Park,

1412
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:26,280
Speaker 2: or it will die death. So they put it out.

1413
01:44:27,120 --> 01:44:27,360
Speaker 1: Now.

1414
01:44:27,439 --> 01:44:32,840
Speaker 2: I I had, you know, two or three ladies working

1415
01:44:32,880 --> 01:44:36,040
Speaker 2: for me at the time, well for nearly the whole time,

1416
01:44:36,600 --> 01:44:39,080
Speaker 2: and they would have the radio on downstairs, and I

1417
01:44:39,160 --> 01:44:41,840
Speaker 2: was upstairs in my office and I kept hearing this song,

1418
01:44:42,479 --> 01:44:48,800
Speaker 2: and I buzzed Gene, my American PA, whose voice would

1419
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:53,280
Speaker 2: strip chrome off a bumper, and I said to her,

1420
01:44:53,880 --> 01:45:00,000
Speaker 2: will you please stop playing that bloody record. Wow, it's

1421
01:45:00,320 --> 01:45:06,719
Speaker 2: it's not us, it's Radio one. I said what I said,

1422
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:09,479
Speaker 2: But they're playing the whole thing, and she said yes.

1423
01:45:11,080 --> 01:45:16,600
Speaker 2: So this thing was picked up by the rest of

1424
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:21,479
Speaker 2: the world radio, no edit, whole thing. We did a

1425
01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:25,040
Speaker 2: pretty crappy video to go with it, but didn't really matter.

1426
01:45:25,280 --> 01:45:29,639
Speaker 2: And the next week, to give you an idea of

1427
01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:35,040
Speaker 2: my own belief and the amount of bullshit I can talk,

1428
01:45:35,760 --> 01:45:37,640
Speaker 2: I call up the charts used to come through on

1429
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:40,360
Speaker 2: a Tuesday back then, So I call up Phonogram on

1430
01:45:40,400 --> 01:45:42,960
Speaker 2: a Tuesday, and I get the cleaner of somebody on

1431
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:46,160
Speaker 2: the phone and I tell him who I am, and

1432
01:45:46,200 --> 01:45:52,600
Speaker 2: I say, have you got this week's radio chart, the

1433
01:45:52,720 --> 01:45:55,479
Speaker 2: Music week Charts, which would be equivalent to the Billboard,

1434
01:45:56,360 --> 01:45:58,439
Speaker 2: And there's a scrabbling of papers and he said yes,

1435
01:45:58,560 --> 01:46:01,920
Speaker 2: And I said, can you look between numbers fifty and

1436
01:46:02,040 --> 01:46:06,920
Speaker 2: seventy five and see if a song called Private Investigations

1437
01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:11,320
Speaker 2: has gone in? And he looks and he said, nah, no,

1438
01:46:11,479 --> 01:46:13,840
Speaker 2: it's not there, and I'm thinking, fuck, we haven't even

1439
01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:16,600
Speaker 2: made the top seventy five. And then he said to me,

1440
01:46:16,640 --> 01:46:20,000
Speaker 2: he said, what's it called again, I said, private Investigations.

1441
01:46:20,280 --> 01:46:23,360
Speaker 2: He said, oh, there's a song called Private Investigations that's

1442
01:46:23,400 --> 01:46:29,520
Speaker 2: gone in at number two. And I went wow, wow,

1443
01:46:30,240 --> 01:46:37,519
Speaker 2: because I just didn't know. And that record became an

1444
01:46:37,560 --> 01:46:42,080
Speaker 2: absolute classic. In the Dos Traits Repertoire Live Repertoire, Big

1445
01:46:42,200 --> 01:46:47,360
Speaker 2: Big fan favorite Carl Scott blessed him, who was at

1446
01:46:47,360 --> 01:46:52,360
Speaker 2: this point in a totally unenviable position, brings me up

1447
01:46:52,360 --> 01:46:54,800
Speaker 2: and he says, the A and R Department have done

1448
01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:58,680
Speaker 2: an edit on Telegraph Road and I have they? And

1449
01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:02,600
Speaker 2: he said it's two and a half minutes long, and

1450
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:06,240
Speaker 2: I just burst out laughing. I said, Carl, don't be silly.

1451
01:47:07,160 --> 01:47:10,320
Speaker 2: We can't put that out, so we weren't able to

1452
01:47:10,360 --> 01:47:17,280
Speaker 2: put out a radio friendly length single In America. The

1453
01:47:17,320 --> 01:47:19,800
Speaker 2: album did quite well, I mean I can't remember what

1454
01:47:19,880 --> 01:47:22,080
Speaker 2: it's sold over two million in the end.

1455
01:47:27,479 --> 01:47:32,519
Speaker 1: When do you find Pick is going to leave the band?

1456
01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:35,919
Speaker 1: What's going on there? And frequently in the history of groups,

1457
01:47:36,720 --> 01:47:39,760
Speaker 1: you'll lose one member, you change the chemistry. I mean,

1458
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:44,040
Speaker 1: Rim the drummer quit after an illness, and it was

1459
01:47:44,080 --> 01:47:47,759
Speaker 1: never really you seem being very successful.

1460
01:47:47,240 --> 01:47:48,040
Speaker 2: And you're the same.

1461
01:47:48,360 --> 01:47:50,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think when Pick says I'm done?

1462
01:47:51,200 --> 01:47:53,559
Speaker 2: It's the same thing in this situation. I mean, I

1463
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:57,439
Speaker 2: played drums. I'm not a professional drummer level, but I

1464
01:47:57,439 --> 01:47:59,680
Speaker 2: played drums well enough that I could play with the

1465
01:47:59,760 --> 01:48:07,880
Speaker 2: not Hillbillies, etc. And Pick was a really, really good player,

1466
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:12,080
Speaker 2: and he was absolutely right for the music they were

1467
01:48:12,200 --> 01:48:17,640
Speaker 2: making at the beginning of their career, and more particularly,

1468
01:48:17,720 --> 01:48:21,200
Speaker 2: he was right for the level of venues we were doing.

1469
01:48:21,479 --> 01:48:27,639
Speaker 2: We had not got up to mega venues. He had

1470
01:48:28,360 --> 01:48:33,559
Speaker 2: unbelievably where these things go. He'd married my first secretary, Linda.

1471
01:48:35,640 --> 01:48:40,400
Speaker 2: They divorced and then they remarried. Go figure, So he'd

1472
01:48:40,400 --> 01:48:44,840
Speaker 2: married Linda. Linda was still working for me this was

1473
01:48:44,920 --> 01:48:48,479
Speaker 2: not a very good arrangement because they'd go you know,

1474
01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:50,840
Speaker 2: she'd go home and she'd tell him everything that was

1475
01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:58,479
Speaker 2: going on in the office, and how do I do

1476
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:03,720
Speaker 2: this diplomatically. There were some aspects to the way that

1477
01:49:03,960 --> 01:49:06,000
Speaker 2: the band was going which Pick was not happy with.

1478
01:49:06,479 --> 01:49:08,360
Speaker 2: The first of all, it was, first of all, it

1479
01:49:08,439 --> 01:49:15,639
Speaker 2: was getting considerably louder on live shows, and he did

1480
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:22,000
Speaker 2: not like battling with the guitars basically because it was

1481
01:49:22,320 --> 01:49:25,439
Speaker 2: not deafening, but it was getting loud. And he's not

1482
01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:33,120
Speaker 2: you know, he couldn't do Phil Rudd's job in ac DC.

1483
01:49:33,640 --> 01:49:40,320
Speaker 2: He's not that kind of player. There were just personal

1484
01:49:40,320 --> 01:49:44,360
Speaker 2: issues arising really between him and Mark, because Mark by

1485
01:49:44,439 --> 01:49:49,200
Speaker 2: then had emerged as happens in many, many, many bands

1486
01:49:49,240 --> 01:49:53,680
Speaker 2: that start off as democracies, Mark had become a dictator.

1487
01:49:54,680 --> 01:49:57,560
Speaker 2: I mean he was right in everything. Now. He was producing,

1488
01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 2: he was singing everything, he was arranging everything, and he

1489
01:50:01,600 --> 01:50:06,200
Speaker 2: wasn't exactly telling people how to what to play. But

1490
01:50:06,280 --> 01:50:14,120
Speaker 2: Mark's very precise about how he hears his songs kind

1491
01:50:14,160 --> 01:50:17,280
Speaker 2: of in his head. He's not the kind of musician

1492
01:50:17,320 --> 01:50:21,440
Speaker 2: who goes into the studio and like say the Stones

1493
01:50:21,560 --> 01:50:25,439
Speaker 2: might from time to time and jam and hope that

1494
01:50:25,520 --> 01:50:29,679
Speaker 2: something arises. He goes in and he's got a very

1495
01:50:29,760 --> 01:50:33,559
Speaker 2: clear idea. That's not to say he doesn't like let

1496
01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:36,960
Speaker 2: other people put their ten cents in. He does, but

1497
01:50:37,000 --> 01:50:41,760
Speaker 2: at the end of the day he'll basically dictate if

1498
01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:46,439
Speaker 2: you like, how the thing's going to go. And Pick

1499
01:50:46,600 --> 01:50:50,040
Speaker 2: was not happy with that aspect. He and his Linda

1500
01:50:50,160 --> 01:50:53,040
Speaker 2: my secretary, his wife, my secretary, they just had their

1501
01:50:53,080 --> 01:51:01,800
Speaker 2: first baby. He was on one core water of albums

1502
01:51:01,840 --> 01:51:08,280
Speaker 2: one and two, had one third on albums three and

1503
01:51:08,600 --> 01:51:16,040
Speaker 2: four and plus whatever the tours have produced, because by

1504
01:51:16,080 --> 01:51:23,719
Speaker 2: this time the tours were profitable. So he did the

1505
01:51:23,760 --> 01:51:30,960
Speaker 2: record and there was a big row about something in

1506
01:51:31,040 --> 01:51:33,320
Speaker 2: New York. I can't remember what it was. It was

1507
01:51:33,360 --> 01:51:38,840
Speaker 2: something to do with kind of the domestic arrangements. I

1508
01:51:38,840 --> 01:51:42,679
Speaker 2: mean a lot of people listening to your You did

1509
01:51:42,680 --> 01:51:46,840
Speaker 2: a fantastic podcast some time ago with Bill Kirbishly. It

1510
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:50,880
Speaker 2: was one of my absolute heroes. I love Bill, and

1511
01:51:50,920 --> 01:51:53,000
Speaker 2: what struck me about that because I've listened to it

1512
01:51:53,040 --> 01:51:59,080
Speaker 2: about three times. Bill was open enough about his personal

1513
01:51:59,120 --> 01:52:02,799
Speaker 2: life and the impact that that has had on his career.

1514
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:12,639
Speaker 2: And also Bill said something which absolutely I totally totally.

1515
01:52:12,680 --> 01:52:14,200
Speaker 2: If he was here now, i'd give him a hug.

1516
01:52:14,960 --> 01:52:18,400
Speaker 2: He was talking about why he and Robert Plant split up,

1517
01:52:19,120 --> 01:52:21,120
Speaker 2: and he said that for him, it was a matter

1518
01:52:21,200 --> 01:52:25,360
Speaker 2: of principle, and in a strange kind of way. I

1519
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:27,160
Speaker 2: think for Pick it was a bit of a matter

1520
01:52:27,240 --> 01:52:33,000
Speaker 2: of principle. And I was very sad to see him

1521
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:35,640
Speaker 2: good because he came to me to tell me, and

1522
01:52:35,720 --> 01:52:37,800
Speaker 2: I was very sad to see him go, But I

1523
01:52:37,840 --> 01:52:41,920
Speaker 2: didn't try to talk him into staying. In my experience,

1524
01:52:42,360 --> 01:52:45,800
Speaker 2: if you try and talk creative people into doing things

1525
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:48,040
Speaker 2: they don't want to do, it's not going to work.

1526
01:52:48,080 --> 01:52:53,960
Speaker 2: It'll backfire. And I remember that John Remark and myself

1527
01:52:54,000 --> 01:52:57,160
Speaker 2: had lunch with Pick, and I said, I said to

1528
01:52:57,200 --> 01:52:58,560
Speaker 2: Pick when he told me, I said, you're going to

1529
01:52:58,640 --> 01:52:59,960
Speaker 2: have to You're going to have to tell the other

1530
01:53:00,400 --> 01:53:02,200
Speaker 2: and he went, yeah, I know. So he told them

1531
01:53:03,040 --> 01:53:09,040
Speaker 2: and it was logistically inconvenient because I already had of course,

1532
01:53:09,240 --> 01:53:12,400
Speaker 2: I had a tour already set up, already to go.

1533
01:53:13,479 --> 01:53:16,320
Speaker 2: I think the thing was on sale and suddenly we

1534
01:53:16,400 --> 01:53:19,320
Speaker 2: needed another drummer. Now I need to go back to

1535
01:53:19,360 --> 01:53:21,400
Speaker 2: my days as an agent. I used to work with

1536
01:53:21,439 --> 01:53:24,080
Speaker 2: a guy called Barry Marshall, who's one of the absolute

1537
01:53:24,120 --> 01:53:27,400
Speaker 2: best promoters in this country that we've ever produced, and

1538
01:53:27,479 --> 01:53:29,840
Speaker 2: probably one of my along with his wife Jenny, one

1539
01:53:29,880 --> 01:53:33,000
Speaker 2: of my dearest friends. At the time Barry was managed.

1540
01:53:33,040 --> 01:53:35,439
Speaker 2: This is back in the seventies. Barry was managing a

1541
01:53:35,560 --> 01:53:42,360
Speaker 2: Welsh jam band a bit like the Dead or Dave

1542
01:53:42,439 --> 01:53:46,720
Speaker 2: Math more like the Dead really, and they had a

1543
01:53:46,760 --> 01:53:50,760
Speaker 2: drummer called Terry Williams, who, of course I became very

1544
01:53:50,760 --> 01:53:54,479
Speaker 2: good friends with. And Terry eventually left Man and joined

1545
01:53:54,600 --> 01:53:58,439
Speaker 2: Dave Edmunds Rock Pile and was on all of those

1546
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:03,000
Speaker 2: Dave Edmund's records. And Terry is the king of the

1547
01:54:03,040 --> 01:54:08,720
Speaker 2: shuffle as we drummers call it, kind of boogie kind

1548
01:54:08,720 --> 01:54:14,519
Speaker 2: of playing. So when so so, when Pitt left, Mark

1549
01:54:14,600 --> 01:54:18,000
Speaker 2: said to me, and sometimes I wonder where where Mark's

1550
01:54:18,040 --> 01:54:20,320
Speaker 2: brain is, because he says to me, do you know

1551
01:54:20,360 --> 01:54:21,080
Speaker 2: any drummers?

1552
01:54:23,479 --> 01:54:23,839
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1553
01:54:24,160 --> 01:54:32,360
Speaker 2: Loads, he said, can you find us a drummer? Oh, yeah,

1554
01:54:32,560 --> 01:54:34,280
Speaker 2: I'll tell you, I said, I'll tell you who you want.

1555
01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:39,800
Speaker 2: You need. Terry Williams, who's Terry Williams told him Terry

1556
01:54:39,800 --> 01:54:44,800
Speaker 2: comes up, goes to what I suppose you'd call an audition,

1557
01:54:44,960 --> 01:54:48,840
Speaker 2: which wasn't really about an hour after he's got there,

1558
01:54:49,040 --> 01:54:55,000
Speaker 2: Illy rings me up. He says, great, fantastic, and I

1559
01:54:55,040 --> 01:54:59,200
Speaker 2: said what you want him? He went absolutely. He said

1560
01:54:59,560 --> 01:55:02,360
Speaker 2: he hasn't walked around his drum kit once, which is

1561
01:55:02,360 --> 01:55:04,480
Speaker 2: what Pick would do. Pick would walk around his drum

1562
01:55:04,560 --> 01:55:09,240
Speaker 2: kit going like that. Terry became the drummer. And what

1563
01:55:09,400 --> 01:55:12,080
Speaker 2: was significant about that was not only could he play

1564
01:55:12,160 --> 01:55:16,920
Speaker 2: the catalog if you like the stuff, but we were

1565
01:55:16,960 --> 01:55:19,760
Speaker 2: moving into bigger arenas and we were on our way

1566
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:25,160
Speaker 2: to stadiums for better or worse and day and Terry

1567
01:55:25,280 --> 01:55:29,360
Speaker 2: was what we needed. He was an absolute powerhouse and

1568
01:55:29,880 --> 01:55:34,320
Speaker 2: he has a quality which a lot of your audience

1569
01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:38,560
Speaker 2: might not understand. But the drummers in your audience will

1570
01:55:39,280 --> 01:55:50,200
Speaker 2: he swings, count Bezi swung, Ellington swung, Oscar Peterson swung

1571
01:55:51,440 --> 01:55:56,040
Speaker 2: and the people who drove those swinging units were the drummers.

1572
01:55:57,080 --> 01:56:02,600
Speaker 2: Uh and Terry Williams was By this time we already

1573
01:56:02,640 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 2: had two keyboard players, Alan Clark and Guy Fletcher, and

1574
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:10,400
Speaker 2: then we had Mark and we and we ended up

1575
01:56:11,520 --> 01:56:14,840
Speaker 2: we needed a saxon. No, the saxon came a little

1576
01:56:14,840 --> 01:56:23,360
Speaker 2: bit later. So we did that tour and we recorded

1577
01:56:23,360 --> 01:56:27,120
Speaker 2: a live album the Alchemy record, which amazingly sold over

1578
01:56:27,160 --> 01:56:31,280
Speaker 2: five million copies, which is pretty good for a live record. Uh.

1579
01:56:31,440 --> 01:56:35,480
Speaker 2: And Terry became a full time member of the band.

1580
01:56:35,640 --> 01:56:37,800
Speaker 2: And the other great thing about Terry, and it's true,

1581
01:56:37,840 --> 01:56:41,080
Speaker 2: I think of you really need this with musicians. He

1582
01:56:41,200 --> 01:56:46,200
Speaker 2: was easy, He didn't he didn't have a drug problem,

1583
01:56:46,800 --> 01:56:51,240
Speaker 2: he didn't have a woman problem. He didn't get silly,

1584
01:56:51,400 --> 01:56:54,840
Speaker 2: he didn't collapse, he was ready. He never missed a gig.

1585
01:56:55,680 --> 01:56:59,680
Speaker 2: He put one hundred percent into every performance. He was

1586
01:57:00,120 --> 01:57:03,400
Speaker 2: used to get along with. He never complained. I never

1587
01:57:03,440 --> 01:57:08,200
Speaker 2: heard him whining or minging about anything. Fantastic.

1588
01:57:08,800 --> 01:57:12,560
Speaker 1: I wish, okay, you bring a new member in the band.

1589
01:57:12,960 --> 01:57:15,280
Speaker 1: The others have been working together a better part of

1590
01:57:15,280 --> 01:57:21,280
Speaker 1: a decade. Most bands they pay him a flat fee

1591
01:57:21,800 --> 01:57:24,800
Speaker 1: and if anything, maybe they'll wait yours and make them

1592
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:28,360
Speaker 1: a full member. Now you only have two original members

1593
01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:33,000
Speaker 1: forgetting the songwriting. You know, what do you decide?

1594
01:57:33,360 --> 01:57:37,760
Speaker 2: You know, well, yeah, good question. The other guys were

1595
01:57:38,160 --> 01:57:43,280
Speaker 2: on a fee. I do believe that if you should

1596
01:57:43,280 --> 01:57:47,000
Speaker 2: pay everybody the same, they're riding on the same bus,

1597
01:57:47,120 --> 01:57:49,960
Speaker 2: they're going on the same plane, they're playing the same show.

1598
01:57:50,080 --> 01:57:53,480
Speaker 2: For two and a quarter rounds whatever it is, and

1599
01:57:53,520 --> 01:57:57,320
Speaker 2: we used to pay what I used to do just

1600
01:57:57,360 --> 01:57:59,680
Speaker 2: as a tip for any managers who might be listening.

1601
01:57:59,760 --> 01:58:04,360
Speaker 2: I used to ring my friends who were managing the

1602
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:10,600
Speaker 2: acts of a simp. Sorry, same kind of level. So

1603
01:58:10,640 --> 01:58:13,480
Speaker 2: I used to ring Roger Forrester who was managing Eric Clapton.

1604
01:58:13,560 --> 01:58:16,680
Speaker 2: I used to ring Steve or Roger was managing Pink Floyd.

1605
01:58:17,000 --> 01:58:19,800
Speaker 2: I used to call Tony Smith who was managing Genesis

1606
01:58:19,880 --> 01:58:22,360
Speaker 2: and probably somebody else, and I would find out what

1607
01:58:22,440 --> 01:58:25,040
Speaker 2: they were paying their side men, and then I would

1608
01:58:25,040 --> 01:58:28,720
Speaker 2: average it and I would increase it, and that was

1609
01:58:28,840 --> 01:58:34,120
Speaker 2: the basis on which they were paid, and then we

1610
01:58:34,640 --> 01:58:39,040
Speaker 2: were the straits because it's their money, not mine. Were

1611
01:58:39,240 --> 01:58:45,240
Speaker 2: very generous with bonuses to our crew. We weren't kind

1612
01:58:45,240 --> 01:58:48,000
Speaker 2: of quite at the tailor swift level with our crew,

1613
01:58:48,680 --> 01:58:53,360
Speaker 2: but the money we would have been. I got to

1614
01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:55,920
Speaker 2: give her eleven out of ten for what she did

1615
01:58:55,960 --> 01:59:01,040
Speaker 2: for her truck drivers, people who if the truck drivers

1616
01:59:01,160 --> 01:59:05,040
Speaker 2: don't care, there, you'll fucked. You know, these people make

1617
01:59:05,480 --> 01:59:10,040
Speaker 2: the thing happen. So we basically had people on what

1618
01:59:10,080 --> 01:59:12,880
Speaker 2: I'll call what you call a flat fee salary, whatever

1619
01:59:12,880 --> 01:59:16,160
Speaker 2: you want to call it. With a bonus at the end,

1620
01:59:16,600 --> 01:59:22,640
Speaker 2: and if they did. For instance, when Terry played on

1621
01:59:22,720 --> 01:59:25,880
Speaker 2: the twisting by the pool ep which was a bit

1622
01:59:25,880 --> 01:59:29,520
Speaker 2: of a throwaway, he got a royalty on that and

1623
01:59:29,600 --> 01:59:33,000
Speaker 2: still does. And the others did that kind of thing.

1624
01:59:34,560 --> 01:59:38,280
Speaker 2: I ran a very I like to think. I mean,

1625
01:59:38,320 --> 01:59:40,560
Speaker 2: there are people who probably would disagree with this and

1626
01:59:40,600 --> 01:59:44,120
Speaker 2: say he's a hard nosed bastard, but I like to

1627
01:59:44,160 --> 01:59:49,480
Speaker 2: think that we ran a pretty fair ship. And that's

1628
01:59:49,480 --> 01:59:52,440
Speaker 2: why the people that we had stayed with us for

1629
01:59:52,520 --> 01:59:57,160
Speaker 2: so long. I mean, Alan Clark gave up at one point.

1630
01:59:58,640 --> 02:00:01,920
Speaker 2: He gave a pretty solid gig with Clapton to come

1631
02:00:01,960 --> 02:00:06,360
Speaker 2: back to the streets, and I got him a big

1632
02:00:06,400 --> 02:00:11,040
Speaker 2: gig prior to that when we were off with Tina Turner.

1633
02:00:12,360 --> 02:00:18,360
Speaker 2: Good musicians are good musicians are generally, but not always,

1634
02:00:18,440 --> 02:00:21,400
Speaker 2: but generally they're pretty bright. They're pretty intelligent. I mean

1635
02:00:21,400 --> 02:00:28,200
Speaker 2: they're not you're not. You don't become whoever by being stupid.

1636
02:00:29,880 --> 02:00:33,160
Speaker 1: Which brings us to brother in arms. What do you

1637
02:00:33,400 --> 02:00:36,960
Speaker 1: think going in? How does Sting get on the money

1638
02:00:36,960 --> 02:00:40,880
Speaker 1: for nothing? Although he'd worked with Deil Dorsman previously, and

1639
02:00:41,480 --> 02:00:43,440
Speaker 1: do you know what's about to happen?

1640
02:00:45,360 --> 02:00:48,040
Speaker 2: Okay, let's go to back to the beginning of that tale.

1641
02:00:48,240 --> 02:00:57,600
Speaker 2: After after Love Over Gold and Alchemy, Mark did a

1642
02:00:57,720 --> 02:01:03,360
Speaker 2: couple of movies. He did al with Helen Mirren and

1643
02:01:03,480 --> 02:01:12,160
Speaker 2: he did The Princess Bride with whoever was in the

1644
02:01:12,160 --> 02:01:15,280
Speaker 2: Princess's Pride of My dam Mental blank. Andre the Giant

1645
02:01:15,360 --> 02:01:20,320
Speaker 2: was in it, I know. And and he started he

1646
02:01:20,440 --> 02:01:23,960
Speaker 2: was doing a bit of producing with other people. He

1647
02:01:24,080 --> 02:01:29,400
Speaker 2: did a record with Aztec Camera and so on and

1648
02:01:29,400 --> 02:01:35,280
Speaker 2: so forth. And he was down Phil Man's and Era

1649
02:01:35,400 --> 02:01:39,760
Speaker 2: from Roxy Music has a really nice studio outside of town.

1650
02:01:40,160 --> 02:01:44,880
Speaker 2: And I was down there one day doing some soundtrack work,

1651
02:01:44,920 --> 02:01:48,600
Speaker 2: I think, and I popped down and we drove back

1652
02:01:48,680 --> 02:01:51,280
Speaker 2: up to London and he just said to me, this

1653
02:01:51,280 --> 02:01:56,120
Speaker 2: would have been this must have been in late eighty four.

1654
02:01:56,920 --> 02:01:59,640
Speaker 2: He just said to me, I've got some songs together.

1655
02:01:59,720 --> 02:02:03,920
Speaker 2: Can you get the guys back together for me. I

1656
02:02:03,960 --> 02:02:08,760
Speaker 2: will say that between the records, I never ever asked

1657
02:02:08,840 --> 02:02:15,040
Speaker 2: him about the next Diastraates record, And I have to

1658
02:02:15,080 --> 02:02:19,040
Speaker 2: be absolutely fair, the record companies didn't either. Now maybe

1659
02:02:19,080 --> 02:02:21,440
Speaker 2: because they were terrified, I don't know, but they never did.

1660
02:02:21,560 --> 02:02:24,760
Speaker 2: Nobody ever said are we going to get another record?

1661
02:02:24,840 --> 02:02:26,640
Speaker 2: Or when are we going to get another record, which

1662
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:32,560
Speaker 2: you might have expected them to, but they didn't, and

1663
02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:34,840
Speaker 2: so that's what happened. We got the we got the

1664
02:02:37,360 --> 02:02:40,280
Speaker 2: basic group back together. They went down to Phil's place

1665
02:02:40,480 --> 02:02:43,880
Speaker 2: and started working up the songs and I remember going

1666
02:02:43,880 --> 02:02:48,240
Speaker 2: down there one day and I had money for nothing

1667
02:02:48,280 --> 02:02:52,760
Speaker 2: for the first time. And one thing that struck me

1668
02:02:52,800 --> 02:02:55,000
Speaker 2: about it was that I had done the first tour

1669
02:02:55,080 --> 02:02:58,960
Speaker 2: of UK and Europe as an agent for zz Top,

1670
02:03:00,720 --> 02:03:03,920
Speaker 2: a band that I love guys, I mean, Dusty's passed

1671
02:03:03,920 --> 02:03:08,160
Speaker 2: away sadly, but the best guys, I mean the best guys,

1672
02:03:08,560 --> 02:03:14,760
Speaker 2: especially Billy, fantastic bloke, because they have a sense of humor.

1673
02:03:16,320 --> 02:03:23,600
Speaker 2: You'd have to if you're in Zeezy. I'd taken Mark

1674
02:03:23,680 --> 02:03:29,040
Speaker 2: to see them. And the guitar tone of that lick

1675
02:03:29,400 --> 02:03:32,600
Speaker 2: is not a I'm not saying. I'm not saying because

1676
02:03:32,600 --> 02:03:35,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it was not a million miles

1677
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:39,840
Speaker 2: away from you know, because when the first time they

1678
02:03:39,880 --> 02:03:43,240
Speaker 2: came over, they weren't doing I'll tell you a little aside.

1679
02:03:44,320 --> 02:03:46,320
Speaker 2: They came over here to do an old gray Whistle

1680
02:03:46,360 --> 02:03:51,680
Speaker 2: test showing London at the Apollo, which is thirty three

1681
02:03:51,760 --> 02:03:54,600
Speaker 2: hundred seats, and another show in Germany and the Big

1682
02:03:54,600 --> 02:04:00,160
Speaker 2: Two in Germany, and they were on the album is

1683
02:04:00,240 --> 02:04:02,680
Speaker 2: Ombree I think it was called, and that.

1684
02:04:03,040 --> 02:04:04,760
Speaker 1: Was the first Warner Brothers reckord.

1685
02:04:05,200 --> 02:04:07,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, was it okay? And there was a track on

1686
02:04:07,320 --> 02:04:09,600
Speaker 2: it called I Thank You, which I think is an

1687
02:04:09,640 --> 02:04:21,120
Speaker 2: old day thank you. Yeah, and uh, I remember, I

1688
02:04:21,160 --> 02:04:30,360
Speaker 2: remember they they wanted to go. They were constantly going

1689
02:04:30,360 --> 02:04:32,600
Speaker 2: on about how they came from Houston and they could

1690
02:04:32,600 --> 02:04:37,000
Speaker 2: eat the hottest food known to man, and they wanted

1691
02:04:37,000 --> 02:04:40,960
Speaker 2: to go. They wanted to know what Indian restaurant in

1692
02:04:41,000 --> 02:04:45,200
Speaker 2: London served the hottest curry. So I took them to

1693
02:04:46,600 --> 02:04:48,960
Speaker 2: Funny Enough, a place that Freddie Mercury used to go.

1694
02:04:49,040 --> 02:04:50,760
Speaker 2: So I used to see fred In there all the time.

1695
02:04:51,360 --> 02:04:56,440
Speaker 2: That Dusty said to me, I want the hottest thing

1696
02:04:56,480 --> 02:04:59,240
Speaker 2: that they make. And I said, no, you don't. He

1697
02:04:59,320 --> 02:05:04,280
Speaker 2: said no do I said no, you definitely don't. So

1698
02:05:04,400 --> 02:05:06,640
Speaker 2: when they were the guy came out to take the orders,

1699
02:05:06,680 --> 02:05:08,440
Speaker 2: he said to the waiter, he said, what's the hottest

1700
02:05:08,480 --> 02:05:10,480
Speaker 2: curring you make? And the guy looked at him and

1701
02:05:10,480 --> 02:05:14,000
Speaker 2: he said, it's called a Bangla file. If any of

1702
02:05:14,040 --> 02:05:19,000
Speaker 2: your listeners do not have the So he orders the

1703
02:05:19,040 --> 02:05:23,360
Speaker 2: Bangla file and the entire kitchen staff came out to

1704
02:05:23,440 --> 02:05:31,839
Speaker 2: watch him eat it. It took one mouthful, it turned

1705
02:05:32,200 --> 02:05:35,680
Speaker 2: a completely different color that human beings are supposed to be.

1706
02:05:37,960 --> 02:05:42,080
Speaker 2: And he literally ran to the bathroom and for two

1707
02:05:42,080 --> 02:05:45,960
Speaker 2: and a half hours he remained in the bathroom and

1708
02:05:46,040 --> 02:05:51,520
Speaker 2: we could hear through the door gurglings and plops and groaning,

1709
02:05:51,920 --> 02:05:59,240
Speaker 2: and finally a kind of called to prayer. And when

1710
02:05:59,280 --> 02:06:01,840
Speaker 2: he came out, he was half the size of the

1711
02:06:01,880 --> 02:06:04,680
Speaker 2: person who had gone in. And they had a gig

1712
02:06:04,720 --> 02:06:08,440
Speaker 2: the next day, and poor Dusty had he had very

1713
02:06:08,440 --> 02:06:10,840
Speaker 2: short say, he had contact lenses. He forgot to put

1714
02:06:10,840 --> 02:06:13,200
Speaker 2: his contact lenses in because he was in such a

1715
02:06:13,240 --> 02:06:17,720
Speaker 2: panic that something was going to happen on stage. And

1716
02:06:17,800 --> 02:06:19,680
Speaker 2: every time he walked up to the microphone, he hit

1717
02:06:19,720 --> 02:06:22,880
Speaker 2: the microphone hit him on the head with an incredibly

1718
02:06:22,960 --> 02:06:26,840
Speaker 2: loud donk through the PA and Billy could pardly play

1719
02:06:26,880 --> 02:06:32,960
Speaker 2: for laughing, and uh, well there's no more to the story, really,

1720
02:06:33,000 --> 02:06:36,080
Speaker 2: but that's my little Easy's top story because he couldn't.

1721
02:06:36,360 --> 02:06:41,560
Speaker 2: He absolutely thought he was going to die. So funny,

1722
02:06:41,920 --> 02:06:44,040
Speaker 2: So don't have the bang of file. Sorry, what was

1723
02:06:44,080 --> 02:06:45,240
Speaker 2: your question before?

1724
02:06:45,520 --> 02:06:51,120
Speaker 1: Well, we're making the Brothers and Arms album.

1725
02:06:51,200 --> 02:06:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they basically went down rehearsed. I heard money

1726
02:06:54,120 --> 02:07:00,720
Speaker 2: for Nothing. I didn't. I never listened to records from

1727
02:07:00,720 --> 02:07:03,720
Speaker 2: a commercial point of view, honestly. I mean maybe as

1728
02:07:03,720 --> 02:07:05,480
Speaker 2: a manager I should have done, but I didn't. I

1729
02:07:05,560 --> 02:07:09,480
Speaker 2: just listen. Do I like it. I like to work

1730
02:07:09,520 --> 02:07:12,520
Speaker 2: with artists that I liked. The most important thing to

1731
02:07:12,560 --> 02:07:15,280
Speaker 2: me about all the artists I worked with, other than

1732
02:07:15,360 --> 02:07:17,440
Speaker 2: the fact that I liked them enough to get on

1733
02:07:17,520 --> 02:07:21,000
Speaker 2: with them, was that they were great songwriters. You had

1734
02:07:21,040 --> 02:07:23,280
Speaker 2: Paul Brady on your show a few weeks ago, I

1735
02:07:23,320 --> 02:07:27,680
Speaker 2: mean another of my clients. Fantastic writer and a great guy,

1736
02:07:28,000 --> 02:07:34,280
Speaker 2: I mean, a really great guy. And people like Brian Ferry,

1737
02:07:34,320 --> 02:07:37,760
Speaker 2: I mean, is Brian's a genius songwriter to me? So

1738
02:07:39,680 --> 02:07:44,240
Speaker 2: I wasn't. Particularly the song on that album which I

1739
02:07:44,280 --> 02:07:48,320
Speaker 2: heard in rehearsal, which I just loved was the title song,

1740
02:07:48,640 --> 02:07:52,280
Speaker 2: the Brothers and Arms song, And at the time, we

1741
02:07:52,280 --> 02:07:57,040
Speaker 2: were going through the Falklands War, which is what that

1742
02:07:57,160 --> 02:08:02,920
Speaker 2: song was about. It was very I mean, Dostras hardly

1743
02:08:03,080 --> 02:08:08,640
Speaker 2: be called a political group, but that was quite a

1744
02:08:09,000 --> 02:08:13,960
Speaker 2: moving song given that we had troops out there being

1745
02:08:14,040 --> 02:08:16,960
Speaker 2: blown up and the Argentinians were getting blown up as well,

1746
02:08:20,760 --> 02:08:25,920
Speaker 2: and one song nearly didn't make it onto it. That

1747
02:08:26,040 --> 02:08:29,160
Speaker 2: was Walk of Life. I walked into the studio in

1748
02:08:29,240 --> 02:08:34,920
Speaker 2: New York and Mark and Neil Drsman were mixing it.

1749
02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:41,600
Speaker 2: I hadn't heard it. And as I think I might

1750
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:43,320
Speaker 2: have mentioned earlier, Mark was a big fan of the

1751
02:08:43,360 --> 02:08:48,240
Speaker 2: animals and he happened to like Alan Price's far Feasta

1752
02:08:48,480 --> 02:08:52,200
Speaker 2: organ sound and he'd got this deed did he did? Did?

1753
02:08:52,240 --> 02:08:57,120
Speaker 2: He did lick at the beginning. And I was listening

1754
02:08:57,160 --> 02:09:00,720
Speaker 2: to it and I said, what's this and Mark said, oh,

1755
02:09:00,760 --> 02:09:03,400
Speaker 2: it's a B side, because back then we had B sides.

1756
02:09:04,480 --> 02:09:07,240
Speaker 2: And I said that's a hit song. No it's not.

1757
02:09:08,360 --> 02:09:11,120
Speaker 2: And we had a bit of a debate, not an argument,

1758
02:09:12,160 --> 02:09:17,840
Speaker 2: and Neil Drsman's going, yeah, it's right, and Mark went no,

1759
02:09:18,680 --> 02:09:21,000
Speaker 2: I said, listen, he said. I said, so it's good

1760
02:09:21,120 --> 02:09:24,160
Speaker 2: enough to be a B side and people can hear it,

1761
02:09:24,240 --> 02:09:25,920
Speaker 2: but it's not good enough to go on the record.

1762
02:09:27,080 --> 02:09:30,320
Speaker 2: And he went, oh, all right. Then that song outsold

1763
02:09:30,360 --> 02:09:34,720
Speaker 2: money for nothing worldwide, and it's used in all these

1764
02:09:34,720 --> 02:09:39,920
Speaker 2: football commercials in America and what have you. Sometimes, I mean,

1765
02:09:39,960 --> 02:09:43,760
Speaker 2: I don't think of myself as being credited with anything

1766
02:09:43,800 --> 02:09:46,560
Speaker 2: other than my personal musical taste. That's the only thing

1767
02:09:46,600 --> 02:09:50,760
Speaker 2: that I bring to this. I don't listen to pop

1768
02:09:50,880 --> 02:09:55,280
Speaker 2: radio and I haven't in years. I don't know. I'm

1769
02:09:55,280 --> 02:10:01,800
Speaker 2: not thinking, oh, we need hits. One of my closest

1770
02:10:01,800 --> 02:10:04,440
Speaker 2: friends is a songwriter called Nikki Chin who wrote most

1771
02:10:04,440 --> 02:10:07,240
Speaker 2: of those glam rockets with Mike Chapman. And had dinner

1772
02:10:07,240 --> 02:10:09,240
Speaker 2: with him last night and he said to me we

1773
02:10:09,320 --> 02:10:14,280
Speaker 2: had fifty hits. Really, I said, I can only think

1774
02:10:14,280 --> 02:10:20,440
Speaker 2: of five of them. And he's like, because I always

1775
02:10:20,480 --> 02:10:25,760
Speaker 2: introduced him to people, Britain's worst songwriter by far is terrible.

1776
02:10:26,800 --> 02:10:29,760
Speaker 2: I mean, who could write? Can they can? Forkingness sake?

1777
02:10:32,240 --> 02:10:38,040
Speaker 2: So we had that record. As always happens in these situations,

1778
02:10:39,120 --> 02:10:42,480
Speaker 2: the album cover was a complete accident. Somebody's waving that

1779
02:10:42,560 --> 02:10:45,640
Speaker 2: National steel about and I can't remember the lady who

1780
02:10:45,680 --> 02:10:51,280
Speaker 2: took the pictures, but stuck a shot and we delivered it.

1781
02:10:51,360 --> 02:10:55,000
Speaker 2: And I had this whole world tour set up because

1782
02:10:55,040 --> 02:10:57,160
Speaker 2: by this time I had a pretty good idea of

1783
02:10:57,720 --> 02:11:01,080
Speaker 2: where we could play, the level we could play, and

1784
02:11:01,280 --> 02:11:03,400
Speaker 2: where we needed to go where we hadn't been before.

1785
02:11:03,480 --> 02:11:05,040
Speaker 2: Because one of the things you have to do with

1786
02:11:05,120 --> 02:11:09,280
Speaker 2: any band is keep it interesting and when you go.

1787
02:11:09,840 --> 02:11:12,320
Speaker 2: We were the first really big band to go and

1788
02:11:12,360 --> 02:11:15,240
Speaker 2: play in Israel. I mean sadly we couldn't do that

1789
02:11:15,280 --> 02:11:18,120
Speaker 2: obviously at the moment, but we played to a quarter

1790
02:11:18,160 --> 02:11:22,080
Speaker 2: of the population over three shows and they were going gaga,

1791
02:11:22,360 --> 02:11:27,040
Speaker 2: I mean completely bonkers, because nobody went and played in Israel.

1792
02:11:27,880 --> 02:11:30,840
Speaker 2: And yea, I used to find these promoters, mostly under

1793
02:11:30,840 --> 02:11:36,640
Speaker 2: a stone somewhere and they would we playing on that tour.

1794
02:11:36,720 --> 02:11:38,960
Speaker 2: We played that. We started in Israel, and then we

1795
02:11:39,000 --> 02:11:43,280
Speaker 2: went to Greece, then we went to the old Yugoslavia

1796
02:11:43,840 --> 02:11:45,960
Speaker 2: and worked our way up and so on and so forth.

1797
02:11:46,440 --> 02:11:54,240
Speaker 2: And we had my partner, Sadie doesn't believe in the

1798
02:11:54,600 --> 02:11:58,880
Speaker 2: idea of luck. She calls it perfect alignment. And I

1799
02:11:58,960 --> 02:12:03,560
Speaker 2: always think yeah, and we that was a wonderful piece

1800
02:12:03,600 --> 02:12:06,720
Speaker 2: of perfect alignment, which was not intended to be so.

1801
02:12:07,000 --> 02:12:10,160
Speaker 2: And that was doing live aid when we had money

1802
02:12:10,200 --> 02:12:14,560
Speaker 2: for nothing out with Sting. Oh you asked me how

1803
02:12:14,600 --> 02:12:23,640
Speaker 2: Sting appeared on that record. He was on the island surfing. Well,

1804
02:12:23,680 --> 02:12:25,360
Speaker 2: not on the island. He went in the sea for that.

1805
02:12:26,080 --> 02:12:30,840
Speaker 2: And the best place to eat on the island was

1806
02:12:30,880 --> 02:12:34,040
Speaker 2: the studio. There was a great chef up at George

1807
02:12:34,040 --> 02:12:39,919
Speaker 2: Martin studio, and one night he showed up in Monsrat

1808
02:12:40,000 --> 02:12:43,840
Speaker 2: Yes and Mark said, Tom, I've written I've written this

1809
02:12:43,920 --> 02:12:47,160
Speaker 2: really stupid song about MTV. You fancy playing on it?

1810
02:12:48,400 --> 02:12:54,000
Speaker 2: And Gordon as we call him, said yeah. So they

1811
02:12:54,000 --> 02:12:56,640
Speaker 2: went downstairs into the studio and just came up with

1812
02:12:56,680 --> 02:13:00,720
Speaker 2: the idea of sticking I Want my MTV on the

1813
02:13:00,760 --> 02:13:03,800
Speaker 2: front to the tune of Don't Stand So Close to

1814
02:13:03,840 --> 02:13:09,600
Speaker 2: Me and we had a we had How long did

1815
02:13:09,600 --> 02:13:12,800
Speaker 2: that take? Half an hour? I don't know, It's just

1816
02:13:12,840 --> 02:13:15,280
Speaker 2: one of those things. Sorry. I was just going to

1817
02:13:15,320 --> 02:13:20,840
Speaker 2: say that in pop music, spontaneity it's very difficult. You

1818
02:13:20,960 --> 02:13:25,000
Speaker 2: can't engineer spontaneity because of the definition of the word.

1819
02:13:25,880 --> 02:13:32,800
Speaker 2: But spontaneity is often produces a great result. And that

1820
02:13:33,000 --> 02:13:33,320
Speaker 2: was one.

1821
02:13:40,800 --> 02:13:44,080
Speaker 1: Okay, the record is done. At what point do you

1822
02:13:44,160 --> 02:13:47,120
Speaker 1: decide to make a video for money for nothing? And

1823
02:13:47,200 --> 02:13:50,320
Speaker 1: how does it become the video? It is one of

1824
02:13:50,360 --> 02:13:52,600
Speaker 1: the most iconic videos of the empty.

1825
02:13:53,520 --> 02:14:01,520
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, Well, it was pretty obvious to everybody. And

1826
02:14:01,560 --> 02:14:04,520
Speaker 2: I remember right at the beginning when I very first

1827
02:14:04,560 --> 02:14:11,280
Speaker 2: played that album to the record company people, and first

1828
02:14:11,320 --> 02:14:15,400
Speaker 2: it would have been the UK company. Everybody, you know,

1829
02:14:15,560 --> 02:14:23,600
Speaker 2: everybody jumped on that particular track, and we were because

1830
02:14:23,680 --> 02:14:27,360
Speaker 2: the whole thing, because everything had overrun. We were in

1831
02:14:27,400 --> 02:14:32,400
Speaker 2: a real time jam we had and we were doing

1832
02:14:32,480 --> 02:14:35,280
Speaker 2: various tax things and so on and so forth. We

1833
02:14:35,360 --> 02:14:40,280
Speaker 2: had to leave the country by March the thirty first

1834
02:14:40,360 --> 02:14:46,080
Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty five, so we had to make the

1835
02:14:46,280 --> 02:14:56,560
Speaker 2: video while we were on tour, and we had contacted

1836
02:14:56,640 --> 02:15:02,560
Speaker 2: Steve Barron, who had, amongst other things, shot Beat It

1837
02:15:03,040 --> 02:15:09,760
Speaker 2: for Michael Jackson, and we were looking for somebody to

1838
02:15:09,880 --> 02:15:13,480
Speaker 2: play the role of the redneck guy in the store.

1839
02:15:14,440 --> 02:15:17,040
Speaker 2: And I tried to think of the two biggest American

1840
02:15:17,120 --> 02:15:19,200
Speaker 2: rednecks I could come up with, and one of them

1841
02:15:19,280 --> 02:15:25,640
Speaker 2: was Buddy Rich and the other one was very dry

1842
02:15:25,760 --> 02:15:30,360
Speaker 2: comedian you've got when he's passed on what was his name,

1843
02:15:30,480 --> 02:15:34,960
Speaker 2: can't remember, and they both of course flipped it back

1844
02:15:35,880 --> 02:15:39,840
Speaker 2: and Steve came up with, well, he didn't come up

1845
02:15:39,880 --> 02:15:44,840
Speaker 2: with it, but he showed us that computer stuff, which

1846
02:15:44,880 --> 02:15:49,440
Speaker 2: was brand new then, which got around the problem of

1847
02:15:49,480 --> 02:15:51,800
Speaker 2: having somebody a redneck in it, because we could have

1848
02:15:51,840 --> 02:15:56,400
Speaker 2: a cartoon redneck, which is what we had. So we

1849
02:15:56,520 --> 02:15:58,760
Speaker 2: basically said yes, and he went off and he made

1850
02:15:58,800 --> 02:16:03,200
Speaker 2: that clip and the live sections were all shot at

1851
02:16:03,200 --> 02:16:07,840
Speaker 2: a sound check and a gig in Budapest, and the

1852
02:16:07,880 --> 02:16:13,480
Speaker 2: girl who's in it was Miss Hungary. Can't write this,

1853
02:16:13,640 --> 02:16:13,960
Speaker 2: can you?

1854
02:16:14,680 --> 02:16:20,080
Speaker 1: Okay? I bought the album day came out. I knew

1855
02:16:20,120 --> 02:16:26,520
Speaker 1: money for nothing before it hit MTV. But this kick

1856
02:16:27,120 --> 02:16:30,000
Speaker 1: as big as Dire Streets was. They kicked the whole

1857
02:16:30,040 --> 02:16:33,440
Speaker 1: thing into the stratosphere. So what was it like on

1858
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:35,080
Speaker 1: your red.

1859
02:16:39,879 --> 02:16:42,879
Speaker 2: I'm going to say something that you It was funny.

1860
02:16:44,520 --> 02:16:49,360
Speaker 2: It was really funny. We'd been slogging away and climbing

1861
02:16:49,440 --> 02:16:55,720
Speaker 2: up the greasy pole and each step and suddenly we

1862
02:16:55,920 --> 02:16:59,640
Speaker 2: have a hit record with a lyric which is basically

1863
02:17:02,000 --> 02:17:06,160
Speaker 2: it's not a comedy record. But and it was written

1864
02:17:06,920 --> 02:17:11,240
Speaker 2: because he went into an electronics store down in Greenwich

1865
02:17:11,320 --> 02:17:15,360
Speaker 2: Village that's going to place down there, and there were

1866
02:17:15,400 --> 02:17:18,880
Speaker 2: these guys having this conversation and he just he got

1867
02:17:18,920 --> 02:17:22,280
Speaker 2: up a piece of Off Blokes notepad and he went

1868
02:17:22,320 --> 02:17:26,360
Speaker 2: and sat in the window display and he just listened.

1869
02:17:26,840 --> 02:17:30,080
Speaker 2: And he said to me he couldn't quite remember he

1870
02:17:30,160 --> 02:17:32,040
Speaker 2: thought of the band that was on the TV at

1871
02:17:32,080 --> 02:17:34,280
Speaker 2: the time, because of course they had fifty TVs all

1872
02:17:34,320 --> 02:17:36,920
Speaker 2: played on TV and he thought it was Motley Crue,

1873
02:17:38,440 --> 02:17:42,879
Speaker 2: something that my dear friend Dot McGee was very chuffed about.

1874
02:17:43,400 --> 02:17:52,280
Speaker 2: And so we had this tour that's totally sold out

1875
02:17:52,760 --> 02:17:57,920
Speaker 2: before we've even started. We've got this record, we've got

1876
02:17:58,400 --> 02:18:02,959
Speaker 2: some reasonably good art work, I suppose from dastress point

1877
02:18:02,959 --> 02:18:06,560
Speaker 2: of view, and we had this video which was, as

1878
02:18:06,600 --> 02:18:09,640
Speaker 2: you say, a bit of it was the first one

1879
02:18:09,680 --> 02:18:14,600
Speaker 2: ever played on MTV UK when they opened the station,

1880
02:18:15,160 --> 02:18:20,840
Speaker 2: and we had radio going nuts for it. So everything

1881
02:18:20,879 --> 02:18:25,199
Speaker 2: that had happened previously kind of got us to there,

1882
02:18:26,400 --> 02:18:29,920
Speaker 2: and the tour just took off. I mean it just

1883
02:18:30,200 --> 02:18:30,760
Speaker 2: took off.

1884
02:18:31,840 --> 02:18:35,600
Speaker 1: Well, people don't realize because of course, you know, this

1885
02:18:35,760 --> 02:18:38,879
Speaker 1: was by time we hit eighty five. It's no longer

1886
02:18:38,920 --> 02:18:41,920
Speaker 1: the advent of MTV. People had certain things. You spend

1887
02:18:41,920 --> 02:18:45,199
Speaker 1: the money, you have looked, you have outfits. We people

1888
02:18:45,360 --> 02:18:49,800
Speaker 1: didn't realize in America then and for a few years after,

1889
02:18:50,160 --> 02:18:55,160
Speaker 1: the Dire Strait was the biggest band in the world

1890
02:18:55,920 --> 02:18:59,560
Speaker 1: that could sell more tickets in anybody else around the world.

1891
02:19:02,800 --> 02:19:05,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Probably no, I mean.

1892
02:19:05,640 --> 02:19:09,039
Speaker 1: You would see the stadium grosses. Let's not forget. Dire

1893
02:19:09,120 --> 02:19:12,480
Speaker 1: Streets didn't tick the boxes of the emptyv era when

1894
02:19:12,520 --> 02:19:16,039
Speaker 1: most of their success was No, it wasn't about flash,

1895
02:19:16,080 --> 02:19:19,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't about good looking guys. It wasn't about you know,

1896
02:19:19,280 --> 02:19:24,039
Speaker 1: syndromes or et cetera. So to have this, I mean,

1897
02:19:24,200 --> 02:19:27,480
Speaker 1: we should have such a thing today.

1898
02:19:28,280 --> 02:19:32,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but I'll tell you something, Bob, it's funny.

1899
02:19:32,520 --> 02:19:34,920
Speaker 2: And I don't know how many other people like me

1900
02:19:35,040 --> 02:19:37,960
Speaker 2: you've I know, you've interviewed a lot. When you're in

1901
02:19:38,000 --> 02:19:42,560
Speaker 2: the middle of it, you don't really you can't stand back.

1902
02:19:43,800 --> 02:19:49,560
Speaker 2: You're thinking more about tomorrow or are the trucks gonna

1903
02:19:49,560 --> 02:19:54,800
Speaker 2: break down? If you're a warrior or a very hands

1904
02:19:54,800 --> 02:19:58,800
Speaker 2: on person, which I am, and I don't consider that's

1905
02:19:58,800 --> 02:20:01,119
Speaker 2: the plus. By the way, I think that the biggest

1906
02:20:01,160 --> 02:20:06,199
Speaker 2: mistake I did. I didn't delegate enough. I was too

1907
02:20:09,240 --> 02:20:16,199
Speaker 2: I I was too detail oriented. I mean, don't forget

1908
02:20:16,240 --> 02:20:18,680
Speaker 2: I wasn't using an agent anywhere except the US, so

1909
02:20:18,760 --> 02:20:24,040
Speaker 2: I was doing all of that, dealing with all these promoters.

1910
02:20:24,600 --> 02:20:27,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, we had. That was an amazing experience. I mean,

1911
02:20:27,520 --> 02:20:34,840
Speaker 2: in terms of my life today, that would be top

1912
02:20:34,959 --> 02:20:39,000
Speaker 2: That's the greatest experience of my life other than you know,

1913
02:20:39,720 --> 02:20:42,560
Speaker 2: the birth of my kids. Things like that, and it

1914
02:20:45,920 --> 02:20:48,520
Speaker 2: and it was and it was so it was a

1915
02:20:48,600 --> 02:20:54,520
Speaker 2: very joyful experience. Everybody was getting on, everybody loved what

1916
02:20:54,600 --> 02:20:58,240
Speaker 2: they were doing. We had a fantastic crew, well the

1917
02:20:58,320 --> 02:21:01,199
Speaker 2: same people we always had, great front of our sound,

1918
02:21:01,400 --> 02:21:06,800
Speaker 2: great Chas. Herrington's lights were super. Every show was an event.

1919
02:21:07,680 --> 02:21:09,760
Speaker 2: I think if you're a manager, one of the best

1920
02:21:09,760 --> 02:21:12,080
Speaker 2: things you can do is try and create an event

1921
02:21:12,480 --> 02:21:17,440
Speaker 2: for the audience. And every one of our shows was

1922
02:21:17,440 --> 02:21:19,520
Speaker 2: an event. And when we got to Australia where we

1923
02:21:19,600 --> 02:21:22,879
Speaker 2: ended up for three months, which is ridiculous, and we

1924
02:21:22,959 --> 02:21:26,880
Speaker 2: sold over a million tickets and only little Ed Sheeran

1925
02:21:26,959 --> 02:21:33,040
Speaker 2: has managed more. He sold five tickets more than us.

1926
02:21:34,400 --> 02:21:36,560
Speaker 2: The biggest show we ever did was one hundred and

1927
02:21:36,560 --> 02:21:44,200
Speaker 2: two thousand people in Auckland with no support act. The

1928
02:21:44,600 --> 02:21:47,240
Speaker 2: actual capacity of the place was sixty thousand. And when

1929
02:21:47,280 --> 02:21:51,119
Speaker 2: we got there Gary van Egmund, the promoter who sadly

1930
02:21:51,200 --> 02:21:55,000
Speaker 2: passed away about two months ago, he came up running

1931
02:21:55,040 --> 02:21:58,920
Speaker 2: up to me because it had taken ages to get

1932
02:21:58,920 --> 02:22:02,800
Speaker 2: into the actual vein because of the people outside. He said,

1933
02:22:02,840 --> 02:22:04,800
Speaker 2: can you hold a show for a couple of hours?

1934
02:22:04,959 --> 02:22:09,800
Speaker 2: I said sure. He said, we've found all of these

1935
02:22:09,920 --> 02:22:13,760
Speaker 2: rolls of cloakroom tickets in the back of this place.

1936
02:22:14,320 --> 02:22:23,200
Speaker 2: It was a stock car racing stadium. We sold thirty nine,

1937
02:22:23,680 --> 02:22:28,560
Speaker 2: six hundred and thirty two cloakroom tickets to the people outside.

1938
02:22:30,400 --> 02:22:33,600
Speaker 1: Explain to the American audience what a cloakroom ticket is.

1939
02:22:33,640 --> 02:22:36,280
Speaker 2: Oh, if you put your coat in, If you come

1940
02:22:36,280 --> 02:22:39,560
Speaker 2: in a coat, give it to somebody and they'll hang

1941
02:22:39,600 --> 02:22:42,160
Speaker 2: it on a hook. And in exchange for your incredibly

1942
02:22:42,160 --> 02:22:45,400
Speaker 2: expensive mink coat, you'll get a small piece of paper

1943
02:22:45,400 --> 02:22:48,800
Speaker 2: with a number on it which you can claim when

1944
02:22:48,840 --> 02:22:49,240
Speaker 2: you leave.

1945
02:22:51,000 --> 02:22:53,759
Speaker 1: So where were these people They were in the cloakroom.

1946
02:22:54,280 --> 02:22:57,720
Speaker 2: No, no, no, the audience I'm talking about were outside.

1947
02:22:57,760 --> 02:23:00,800
Speaker 2: They hadn't got tickets. They'd come along on the chance

1948
02:23:00,879 --> 02:23:07,160
Speaker 2: they could get a ticket, and ticket touting secondary ticketing

1949
02:23:07,720 --> 02:23:10,800
Speaker 2: was not known in Australia New Zealand at the time.

1950
02:23:11,400 --> 02:23:14,720
Speaker 2: So these forty people had shown up on the off

1951
02:23:14,920 --> 02:23:17,040
Speaker 2: chance they could get in or they could hear it

1952
02:23:17,120 --> 02:23:21,320
Speaker 2: from outside because it was an outdoor show. And I

1953
02:23:21,360 --> 02:23:23,720
Speaker 2: had a promoter, one of the best we worked with,

1954
02:23:23,840 --> 02:23:29,560
Speaker 2: by far, who had the intelligence and creativity to go

1955
02:23:29,920 --> 02:23:32,960
Speaker 2: figure out, how can I do this? And they went

1956
02:23:33,680 --> 02:23:36,960
Speaker 2: looking around and they found all of these little they're

1957
02:23:37,040 --> 02:23:42,120
Speaker 2: just little paper tickets. So they sold those. So we

1958
02:23:42,440 --> 02:23:45,920
Speaker 2: in the two hours and it was an amazing, amazing show,

1959
02:23:46,360 --> 02:23:49,120
Speaker 2: because of course it is. I mean when you're when

1960
02:23:49,160 --> 02:23:51,160
Speaker 2: you're doing something like that, and I would go in

1961
02:23:51,200 --> 02:23:53,160
Speaker 2: the dressing room and I'd say to the band, you're

1962
02:23:53,160 --> 02:23:56,720
Speaker 2: not going to believe this, And there was quite a

1963
02:23:56,720 --> 02:23:59,720
Speaker 2: lot of you're not going to believe this in their career.

1964
02:24:01,879 --> 02:24:04,480
Speaker 2: You know, Princess Diana wants to wants to just do

1965
02:24:04,600 --> 02:24:09,920
Speaker 2: a concert for her. Okay, So Hewitt, that's Jim. It

1966
02:24:09,920 --> 02:24:12,960
Speaker 2: was king chance as he is now. And we did

1967
02:24:14,440 --> 02:24:18,119
Speaker 2: I mean every where we went. The mistake we made,

1968
02:24:19,040 --> 02:24:21,440
Speaker 2: but it wasn't mistake. We should have come back to

1969
02:24:21,520 --> 02:24:25,040
Speaker 2: the States, but people we'd been We've played two hundred

1970
02:24:25,040 --> 02:24:27,360
Speaker 2: and forty eight shows in twelve months, and people were

1971
02:24:27,600 --> 02:24:32,400
Speaker 2: at a point of caving in. So we didn't.

1972
02:24:34,000 --> 02:24:41,959
Speaker 1: Okay, you make another album on every street. Artistically very strong,

1973
02:24:42,080 --> 02:24:45,480
Speaker 1: nothing could sell as many copies, you know, Michael Jackson,

1974
02:24:45,920 --> 02:24:49,760
Speaker 1: you know, failed to constantly try to reach the peaks

1975
02:24:49,760 --> 02:24:54,320
Speaker 1: of Thriller. But it was both artistically in a commercial success.

1976
02:24:54,760 --> 02:24:59,600
Speaker 1: What was that experience and why was that the last record? Right?

1977
02:25:00,200 --> 02:25:03,520
Speaker 2: I'll just preface that by saying that up to now,

1978
02:25:03,720 --> 02:25:06,360
Speaker 2: I don't know the streaming numbers, but the Brothers in

1979
02:25:06,480 --> 02:25:11,320
Speaker 2: Arms record as a physical product sold about thirty six million.

1980
02:25:13,520 --> 02:25:19,600
Speaker 2: And after it and after that tour, there was a

1981
02:25:19,680 --> 02:25:26,440
Speaker 2: hiatus which lasted about six years. Now, with hindsight, which

1982
02:25:26,480 --> 02:25:31,720
Speaker 2: is a blessed thing, indeed, that was too long for

1983
02:25:31,800 --> 02:25:35,320
Speaker 2: a lot of reasons, and one was that the music

1984
02:25:35,480 --> 02:25:40,800
Speaker 2: scene had changed quite drastically, and if I simply mentioned

1985
02:25:40,879 --> 02:25:45,080
Speaker 2: Nirvana and Pearl Jam, that really.

1986
02:25:47,680 --> 02:25:47,840
Speaker 1: So.

1987
02:25:48,600 --> 02:25:51,359
Speaker 2: But we had a very big and a very loyal

1988
02:25:51,760 --> 02:26:02,280
Speaker 2: fan base, and I with hindsight, as I say, in

1989
02:26:02,320 --> 02:26:08,039
Speaker 2: a way, I wish we'd stopped with the Brothers record,

1990
02:26:09,840 --> 02:26:13,760
Speaker 2: But that's with hindsight. What we did do to fill

1991
02:26:13,840 --> 02:26:21,439
Speaker 2: that gap was complete a contractual requirement. It wasn't contractual,

1992
02:26:21,480 --> 02:26:25,400
Speaker 2: nobody was forcing it, and certainly we were in a

1993
02:26:25,400 --> 02:26:28,080
Speaker 2: position to choose the timing. But we put out a

1994
02:26:28,120 --> 02:26:34,760
Speaker 2: best of the Greatest Hits which sold fifteen million. And

1995
02:26:34,840 --> 02:26:40,720
Speaker 2: I'm just sitting there going this is just ridiculous. So

1996
02:26:43,480 --> 02:26:50,120
Speaker 2: and Mark was doing bits and pieces and I'm going

1997
02:26:50,200 --> 02:26:52,520
Speaker 2: to say something here which if he was sitting in

1998
02:26:52,520 --> 02:26:54,960
Speaker 2: front of him, he might well disagree with me. I

1999
02:26:55,000 --> 02:27:01,000
Speaker 2: don't know. I think for any artists when you have

2000
02:27:01,080 --> 02:27:04,640
Speaker 2: an app when you have one of those big single records,

2001
02:27:04,840 --> 02:27:12,040
Speaker 2: Dark Side of the Moon, the Saturday Night Fever is

2002
02:27:12,040 --> 02:27:14,560
Speaker 2: a really bad example, but Back in Black would be

2003
02:27:14,600 --> 02:27:21,400
Speaker 2: another one. They're great to have in every sense. And

2004
02:27:21,480 --> 02:27:26,800
Speaker 2: I don't mean the income, I mean just but they

2005
02:27:26,840 --> 02:27:30,960
Speaker 2: create this expectation and I'm stating the obvious right now,

2006
02:27:32,080 --> 02:27:36,840
Speaker 2: and I think that I got a bit intimidated by that.

2007
02:27:37,000 --> 02:27:42,480
Speaker 2: I think anybody would, because what happens when you have

2008
02:27:42,480 --> 02:27:44,760
Speaker 2: a big record like that is, first of all, your

2009
02:27:44,800 --> 02:27:49,119
Speaker 2: audience changes a bit. People start coming to shows who

2010
02:27:49,120 --> 02:27:54,240
Speaker 2: are not necessarily distraates music fans. They're becoming because it's

2011
02:27:54,280 --> 02:27:57,520
Speaker 2: the hip and relevant thing to be doing. They want

2012
02:27:57,560 --> 02:28:04,120
Speaker 2: to be seen. You start selling tickets in catered skyboxes.

2013
02:28:05,520 --> 02:28:14,320
Speaker 2: All of that element comes in. And what am with

2014
02:28:14,480 --> 02:28:22,680
Speaker 2: the on every Street record? Do you know? I'm trying

2015
02:28:22,720 --> 02:28:25,959
Speaker 2: to remember how that even got underway? Oh, I know

2016
02:28:26,040 --> 02:28:36,160
Speaker 2: what happened. We were having a conversation. There were some

2017
02:28:36,280 --> 02:28:40,720
Speaker 2: people in the organization and I'm including somebody in my

2018
02:28:40,800 --> 02:28:49,640
Speaker 2: office who were deciding to sort of leave. And the

2019
02:28:49,680 --> 02:28:55,440
Speaker 2: line was I kind of there's nothing going on I'm

2020
02:28:55,480 --> 02:29:03,120
Speaker 2: wasting my life and I was getting a bit. But

2021
02:29:03,240 --> 02:29:08,879
Speaker 2: on the other hand, I had things like the chet

2022
02:29:08,879 --> 02:29:13,560
Speaker 2: Atkins record and you know, to go to Nashville to

2023
02:29:13,560 --> 02:29:16,440
Speaker 2: meet chat Atkins and end up having you know, dinner

2024
02:29:16,480 --> 02:29:19,400
Speaker 2: with Scottie Moore and DJ Fontana and the whole thing

2025
02:29:19,400 --> 02:29:22,840
Speaker 2: that goes with that. And I'm a groupie at the

2026
02:29:22,920 --> 02:29:24,760
Speaker 2: end of the day, I'm a groupie for the stuff

2027
02:29:24,800 --> 02:29:29,640
Speaker 2: I grew up listening to. I mean, when I met

2028
02:29:29,680 --> 02:29:32,480
Speaker 2: Buddy Rich, I didn't I couldn't speak, which is just

2029
02:29:32,520 --> 02:29:42,880
Speaker 2: as well because he couldn't stop. And so there was

2030
02:29:42,920 --> 02:29:46,920
Speaker 2: a camera point when one particular person basically said I'm leaving,

2031
02:29:47,040 --> 02:29:53,039
Speaker 2: and I said, you need to tell Mark and John.

2032
02:29:55,320 --> 02:29:57,280
Speaker 2: Mark and John John. John had done a couple of

2033
02:29:57,280 --> 02:30:04,920
Speaker 2: solo records which were so so, and we went to

2034
02:30:05,040 --> 02:30:10,680
Speaker 2: a little a burger place called Tutsis in Holland Park

2035
02:30:10,720 --> 02:30:15,840
Speaker 2: in London, and my colleague said to Mark, I'm done,

2036
02:30:16,040 --> 02:30:21,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to go, and Mark said, he says, I

2037
02:30:21,320 --> 02:30:24,199
Speaker 2: don't want you to leave, and this guy said, well,

2038
02:30:24,440 --> 02:30:29,039
Speaker 2: you know, there's nothing happening, and and Mark suddenly said,

2039
02:30:29,120 --> 02:30:31,600
Speaker 2: completely out of the blue, you could have you could

2040
02:30:31,600 --> 02:30:35,240
Speaker 2: have literally locked me over with a feather. He said, well, actually,

2041
02:30:35,240 --> 02:30:37,760
Speaker 2: I've got some songs together. Why don't we get the

2042
02:30:37,760 --> 02:30:42,080
Speaker 2: band back together and do it with the band? And

2043
02:30:42,160 --> 02:30:47,440
Speaker 2: I remember saying, no disrespect to so and so, but

2044
02:30:47,600 --> 02:30:50,320
Speaker 2: that is a ridiculous reason for doing a record, to

2045
02:30:50,320 --> 02:30:56,400
Speaker 2: get somebody to stay. And he said, to please the

2046
02:30:56,440 --> 02:30:59,720
Speaker 2: other guy much and Mark said yeah, he said, but

2047
02:30:59,760 --> 02:31:01,840
Speaker 2: you know, it's what I do best, It's why I

2048
02:31:01,920 --> 02:31:12,840
Speaker 2: enjoy doing the most. So he told we got everybody

2049
02:31:12,840 --> 02:31:21,160
Speaker 2: back together, and they went into rehearsals. And by this

2050
02:31:21,240 --> 02:31:25,920
Speaker 2: time he had been seduced, if you like, by the

2051
02:31:26,040 --> 02:31:32,560
Speaker 2: Nashville scene, which I had very mixed feelings about. I

2052
02:31:32,640 --> 02:31:37,039
Speaker 2: have no issue at all with musicians making money professionally,

2053
02:31:37,040 --> 02:31:40,120
Speaker 2: that's what they do. But it was quite apparent to

2054
02:31:40,160 --> 02:31:45,160
Speaker 2: me that the amount of stroking that was going on

2055
02:31:45,240 --> 02:31:50,520
Speaker 2: in Nashville from people there in Mart's direction was not

2056
02:31:50,879 --> 02:31:54,520
Speaker 2: because they thought his music was great. But he was

2057
02:31:54,560 --> 02:31:58,879
Speaker 2: a big rock star who'd come to town and it

2058
02:31:59,000 --> 02:32:01,680
Speaker 2: was very possible that they could probably hitch a ride,

2059
02:32:02,640 --> 02:32:05,720
Speaker 2: and quite a lot of them did, and they're great

2060
02:32:06,200 --> 02:32:12,680
Speaker 2: people and great players. But he was very I think

2061
02:32:12,720 --> 02:32:18,439
Speaker 2: a little bit naive about that. And anyway, that influence,

2062
02:32:19,000 --> 02:32:21,600
Speaker 2: and particularly in the form of Paul Franklin, who was

2063
02:32:21,600 --> 02:32:27,280
Speaker 2: playing pedal steel guitar extremely well, am I add at

2064
02:32:27,320 --> 02:32:29,600
Speaker 2: not in Hillbery sound checks. He and I used to

2065
02:32:29,640 --> 02:32:31,800
Speaker 2: play just we'd just go on the stage together, just

2066
02:32:31,879 --> 02:32:35,200
Speaker 2: me and and play Orange Blossom Special as fast as

2067
02:32:35,200 --> 02:32:38,360
Speaker 2: we could possibly play it, and every sound check it

2068
02:32:38,400 --> 02:32:43,040
Speaker 2: would get faster and faster and faster. So Paul came

2069
02:32:43,080 --> 02:32:45,720
Speaker 2: into the group and they made that record which had

2070
02:32:45,760 --> 02:32:48,520
Speaker 2: this sort of bit of a country flavor to it,

2071
02:32:49,680 --> 02:32:55,280
Speaker 2: and on a personal level, I didn't think that it

2072
02:32:55,480 --> 02:33:00,000
Speaker 2: was not that it wasn't as commercial as Brothers and Arms.

2073
02:33:00,320 --> 02:33:02,480
Speaker 2: I didn't think it was as good an album as

2074
02:33:02,480 --> 02:33:05,680
Speaker 2: some of the ones we've done in the past. I

2075
02:33:05,720 --> 02:33:10,560
Speaker 2: thought there were some tracks on it that were fault fillers.

2076
02:33:11,640 --> 02:33:15,360
Speaker 2: Calling Elvis to me is a lazy song. I love

2077
02:33:15,400 --> 02:33:18,680
Speaker 2: the guitar sound on that, Yeah, yeah, hang on. There's

2078
02:33:18,680 --> 02:33:21,560
Speaker 2: a qualification to that, which is that that which was

2079
02:33:21,680 --> 02:33:27,240
Speaker 2: saved by Jeff Paccaro bless him, I r I p

2080
02:33:28,400 --> 02:33:31,720
Speaker 2: and by Mart's guitar playing on it, but doing a song,

2081
02:33:33,480 --> 02:33:36,680
Speaker 2: you know, waffling on with Elvis's song titles. It's a

2082
02:33:36,680 --> 02:33:42,800
Speaker 2: bit lazy to me. I really liked the title track.

2083
02:33:43,680 --> 02:33:46,040
Speaker 2: I thought You and Your Friend, which is the one

2084
02:33:46,280 --> 02:33:55,240
Speaker 2: with the Doughbra solo on it was brilliant. But well,

2085
02:33:55,360 --> 02:33:56,920
Speaker 2: that's what I had to work with when you're a man,

2086
02:33:56,959 --> 02:34:00,720
Speaker 2: and you know we're talking relative here, because most managers

2087
02:34:00,720 --> 02:34:04,039
Speaker 2: don't get a record like that in their lives to

2088
02:34:04,160 --> 02:34:11,039
Speaker 2: work with. And we and I made a mistake, and

2089
02:34:11,080 --> 02:34:13,879
Speaker 2: it was it was made in good faith. I over

2090
02:34:14,120 --> 02:34:19,359
Speaker 2: egged the size of the venues and night and multiple

2091
02:34:19,520 --> 02:34:23,240
Speaker 2: night things that we were planning to do. And in

2092
02:34:23,280 --> 02:34:33,080
Speaker 2: some countries it worked. UK, Europe no problem. Australia was okay,

2093
02:34:33,879 --> 02:34:37,560
Speaker 2: but it was we've kind of left it too long

2094
02:34:37,680 --> 02:34:44,400
Speaker 2: in a way, and the US was not good. I

2095
02:34:44,440 --> 02:34:49,760
Speaker 2: mean we were okay in on the two coasts and

2096
02:34:49,879 --> 02:34:56,680
Speaker 2: in Canada, but the middle, it was the middle was

2097
02:34:56,720 --> 02:35:00,200
Speaker 2: a you needed a hit single kind of thing, get

2098
02:35:00,240 --> 02:35:04,840
Speaker 2: over in Kansas. But that's you know, I mean, it

2099
02:35:04,959 --> 02:35:07,960
Speaker 2: sold seven million tickets, so people would say, oh, what

2100
02:35:08,000 --> 02:35:11,720
Speaker 2: are you moaning about, But it's just I think that's

2101
02:35:11,760 --> 02:35:14,440
Speaker 2: to do with the pride that you have in your

2102
02:35:14,520 --> 02:35:18,800
Speaker 2: work and trying to get things right in what is

2103
02:35:18,879 --> 02:35:23,200
Speaker 2: an incredibly speculative kind of thing. And what a lot

2104
02:35:23,200 --> 02:35:25,360
Speaker 2: of other people. A lot of people don't realize, and

2105
02:35:25,400 --> 02:35:29,360
Speaker 2: certainly the audience didn't realize. When you're working with a

2106
02:35:29,400 --> 02:35:32,280
Speaker 2: band at that level, you're planning at least a year ahead,

2107
02:35:32,600 --> 02:35:35,200
Speaker 2: probably eighteen months. And there was one thing, of course,

2108
02:35:35,240 --> 02:35:37,720
Speaker 2: that I could never have anticipated, and that was the

2109
02:35:37,720 --> 02:35:42,760
Speaker 2: outbreak of the goal, for which totally stuffed us because

2110
02:35:43,120 --> 02:35:47,560
Speaker 2: I had to I had done put nearly the whole

2111
02:35:47,560 --> 02:35:50,000
Speaker 2: thing together, and I had to dump it all and

2112
02:35:50,080 --> 02:35:53,119
Speaker 2: start again. I put that tour together twice.

2113
02:35:54,320 --> 02:35:56,720
Speaker 1: Okay, So how many dates were there on that tour.

2114
02:35:56,760 --> 02:36:01,440
Speaker 2: Two hundred and that one? I think it was about

2115
02:36:01,440 --> 02:36:03,360
Speaker 2: two hundred and thirty five.

2116
02:36:03,800 --> 02:36:06,879
Speaker 1: Okay, you play the two hundred and thirtieth date. Everybody's

2117
02:36:06,959 --> 02:36:10,560
Speaker 1: worn out. Yeah. Do you have a sense that this

2118
02:36:10,720 --> 02:36:13,400
Speaker 1: is it? Or you do?

2119
02:36:14,959 --> 02:36:21,280
Speaker 2: I canceled South America and South Africa because I didn't

2120
02:36:21,320 --> 02:36:24,840
Speaker 2: think i'd have a band to do it. Inter Band

2121
02:36:24,920 --> 02:36:36,520
Speaker 2: relationships were fraught in the extreme because because our leader

2122
02:36:37,000 --> 02:36:43,720
Speaker 2: was not a happy bunny, and he was, there was

2123
02:36:43,760 --> 02:36:48,800
Speaker 2: an awful lot going something that people who are fans

2124
02:36:48,840 --> 02:36:52,080
Speaker 2: of popular music and love their particular act, be it

2125
02:36:52,600 --> 02:37:00,760
Speaker 2: Coldplay or whoever, can never know the impact that personal

2126
02:37:01,280 --> 02:37:07,600
Speaker 2: relationships outside of a band and marriage is what I'm

2127
02:37:07,640 --> 02:37:12,680
Speaker 2: thinking of the impact that they have on the artistic side.

2128
02:37:13,920 --> 02:37:17,520
Speaker 2: It's huge, and it was huge in that case. It

2129
02:37:17,680 --> 02:37:22,160
Speaker 2: was a very very very difficult period because people's personal

2130
02:37:22,200 --> 02:37:23,760
Speaker 2: lives were in tatus.

2131
02:37:31,280 --> 02:37:35,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so the tour stops. Is there ever a conscious

2132
02:37:35,879 --> 02:37:38,240
Speaker 1: decision to say we're done, we're not going to go

2133
02:37:38,280 --> 02:37:41,760
Speaker 1: out as dire streets or it just never happened again.

2134
02:37:41,840 --> 02:37:48,080
Speaker 2: No nobody ever told me. When they finished in a

2135
02:37:48,160 --> 02:37:53,480
Speaker 2: town in called Zaragotho or Zaragoza in Spain, they left

2136
02:37:53,520 --> 02:37:57,640
Speaker 2: the stage, they got on the private plane back to

2137
02:37:58,120 --> 02:38:01,760
Speaker 2: Barcelona where we were staying. Nobody spoke to each other.

2138
02:38:02,360 --> 02:38:05,200
Speaker 2: There was no end of tour party, There was no

2139
02:38:05,360 --> 02:38:10,680
Speaker 2: end of tour goodbyes. There were no hugs. Everybody went

2140
02:38:10,680 --> 02:38:17,040
Speaker 2: their separate ways. Chris Whitten, who was the drummer on

2141
02:38:17,080 --> 02:38:19,480
Speaker 2: that tour, who'd been with Paul McCartney up to that,

2142
02:38:20,120 --> 02:38:21,840
Speaker 2: has never spoken to Mark since.

2143
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:26,959
Speaker 1: Was there that level of dissension and the animosity in

2144
02:38:27,000 --> 02:38:27,680
Speaker 1: the group.

2145
02:38:27,640 --> 02:38:32,240
Speaker 2: It was really bad. They might say that I'm completely

2146
02:38:32,320 --> 02:38:35,120
Speaker 2: wrong or that I'm exaggerating. I can only tell you

2147
02:38:35,120 --> 02:38:37,600
Speaker 2: that from my point of view, it was horrendous. We

2148
02:38:37,680 --> 02:38:40,560
Speaker 2: had gone from being at the top of the pile,

2149
02:38:40,600 --> 02:38:46,280
Speaker 2: as you've eloquently described. You See, the thing is that

2150
02:38:46,320 --> 02:38:48,120
Speaker 2: people look at it and they say, when you sold

2151
02:38:48,160 --> 02:38:50,280
Speaker 2: a lot of tickets and he made a lot of money,

2152
02:38:51,120 --> 02:38:56,480
Speaker 2: and that record did twelve million physical more. So, all

2153
02:38:56,480 --> 02:39:03,720
Speaker 2: of that statistically sounds great, but when when you're Paul

2154
02:39:03,720 --> 02:39:06,720
Speaker 2: Franklin was so miserable. When I went out to Barcelona

2155
02:39:06,800 --> 02:39:08,199
Speaker 2: at the end of that time, and I took Peter

2156
02:39:08,320 --> 02:39:14,240
Speaker 2: Grant with me, led Zeppelin's manager the last gigs, I

2157
02:39:14,240 --> 02:39:18,800
Speaker 2: think Peter ever went to him. And when I got there,

2158
02:39:18,840 --> 02:39:21,880
Speaker 2: the guys were having a day off before doing six

2159
02:39:22,000 --> 02:39:25,080
Speaker 2: nights in Barcelona, I think it was, And I asked

2160
02:39:25,080 --> 02:39:29,760
Speaker 2: our tour manager where Paul Franklin was. He said, oh,

2161
02:39:29,760 --> 02:39:31,480
Speaker 2: one days off, he said. He takes a load of

2162
02:39:31,480 --> 02:39:34,640
Speaker 2: sleeping pills and goes to bed and sleeps through so

2163
02:39:34,680 --> 02:39:39,959
Speaker 2: that he doesn't have to mix with anybody else. Ah,

2164
02:39:40,280 --> 02:39:44,840
Speaker 2: So it's like that. It was awful. The things I

2165
02:39:44,840 --> 02:39:48,160
Speaker 2: could tell you, not because I'm not not telling you

2166
02:39:48,200 --> 02:39:52,680
Speaker 2: because they're private, but because they're they're so awful that

2167
02:39:53,120 --> 02:39:55,840
Speaker 2: you and your audience would just go, oh, this guy's

2168
02:39:55,879 --> 02:39:58,800
Speaker 2: making this out. This is out. This starts straight. So

2169
02:39:58,840 --> 02:40:02,200
Speaker 2: I love their music, you know, just it was just

2170
02:40:05,440 --> 02:40:08,400
Speaker 2: I have worked over the many years of my career

2171
02:40:08,480 --> 02:40:14,960
Speaker 2: with bands which were I remember years and years ago,

2172
02:40:15,280 --> 02:40:17,400
Speaker 2: years and years ago, when Richie was still in the

2173
02:40:17,440 --> 02:40:24,520
Speaker 2: group Deep Purple, five cars, five dressing rooms didn't speak

2174
02:40:24,520 --> 02:40:29,680
Speaker 2: to each other, and Richie would frequently refuse point blank

2175
02:40:29,720 --> 02:40:32,520
Speaker 2: to play any guitar solos, so John Lord had to

2176
02:40:32,560 --> 02:40:35,480
Speaker 2: hunt the Hammond organ back was forwards across the stage.

2177
02:40:39,040 --> 02:40:43,879
Speaker 2: Uh black Sabbath who I happened to laugh. And they

2178
02:40:43,920 --> 02:40:47,080
Speaker 2: were great guys because they were so off the wall,

2179
02:40:48,160 --> 02:40:54,520
Speaker 2: but they were everybody's fighting and squabbling. I did a

2180
02:40:54,560 --> 02:40:58,160
Speaker 2: tour with an American band called War, who Eric Burdens

2181
02:40:58,200 --> 02:41:00,680
Speaker 2: sang with for a while. War could not have been

2182
02:41:00,720 --> 02:41:06,080
Speaker 2: more aptly named. They would regularly throw furniture at each other.

2183
02:41:07,360 --> 02:41:10,000
Speaker 2: There was always a bill for broken chairs and tables

2184
02:41:10,040 --> 02:41:13,879
Speaker 2: and crockery. I don't know what it is. I mean,

2185
02:41:16,480 --> 02:41:19,640
Speaker 2: somebody once said to me, if you got back into management,

2186
02:41:20,120 --> 02:41:22,880
Speaker 2: and that's not going to happen, no, But if you did,

2187
02:41:23,280 --> 02:41:25,560
Speaker 2: I said, I try and find a folks singer. It's

2188
02:41:25,720 --> 02:41:31,640
Speaker 2: just on their own who's unmarried. Just trust trust them,

2189
02:41:32,080 --> 02:41:38,280
Speaker 2: Ed Sheeran come and you know it just and the

2190
02:41:38,320 --> 02:41:42,080
Speaker 2: fact that the record, you know, there's a difference, a

2191
02:41:42,240 --> 02:41:46,080
Speaker 2: huge difference in our game between a hit record and

2192
02:41:46,120 --> 02:41:51,959
Speaker 2: a hot record. Brothers in Arms was on fire and

2193
02:41:52,080 --> 02:41:54,800
Speaker 2: on every street somebody had come along with a fire

2194
02:41:54,840 --> 02:42:01,560
Speaker 2: bucket and tipped it over it he didn't have And

2195
02:42:01,600 --> 02:42:06,280
Speaker 2: we were in Adelaide. The previous time in Adelaide on

2196
02:42:06,320 --> 02:42:08,280
Speaker 2: the Brothers and Arms tour, we played to fifty five

2197
02:42:08,360 --> 02:42:12,400
Speaker 2: thousand people in a stadium. On this tour, I had

2198
02:42:12,440 --> 02:42:16,280
Speaker 2: completely miscalculated. And I'm going to share the blame with

2199
02:42:16,600 --> 02:42:21,160
Speaker 2: the promoter, Gary because unfortunately he's passed on. But you know,

2200
02:42:21,240 --> 02:42:24,760
Speaker 2: we had broken all these records in Australia, so you

2201
02:42:25,200 --> 02:42:28,320
Speaker 2: have certain assumptions planted in your mind. Oh, we can

2202
02:42:28,400 --> 02:42:33,560
Speaker 2: do this again. Set the thing up. I arrive in

2203
02:42:33,600 --> 02:42:36,160
Speaker 2: Australia a few days after the guys because they've gone

2204
02:42:36,160 --> 02:42:40,520
Speaker 2: there to rehearse with the local equipment, and that Gary

2205
02:42:40,560 --> 02:42:43,520
Speaker 2: picks me up at the airport and I'm getting ticket

2206
02:42:43,560 --> 02:42:47,560
Speaker 2: counts all the time, and I noticed that these ticket

2207
02:42:47,600 --> 02:42:52,920
Speaker 2: counts are not It's like it's like a movie, you know,

2208
02:42:53,080 --> 02:42:56,000
Speaker 2: in the movie world. They know on the first night

2209
02:42:57,800 --> 02:43:02,480
Speaker 2: and I'm looking at this figure for Adelaide and it's like,

2210
02:43:03,320 --> 02:43:05,640
Speaker 2: we sold fifty five thousand tickets last time, and we've

2211
02:43:05,640 --> 02:43:09,720
Speaker 2: sold six thousand tickets this time. Holy, So we move

2212
02:43:09,760 --> 02:43:12,920
Speaker 2: it into another venue and we sell eight thousand tickets,

2213
02:43:12,920 --> 02:43:15,560
Speaker 2: which fills the other venue. So that you could say

2214
02:43:15,560 --> 02:43:17,760
Speaker 2: that the fault was my fault because I put them

2215
02:43:17,760 --> 02:43:21,400
Speaker 2: in a venue that was too big. But in defense

2216
02:43:21,440 --> 02:43:25,080
Speaker 2: of myself, what would have happened if I'd put them

2217
02:43:25,080 --> 02:43:27,800
Speaker 2: in an eight thousand seater and fifty five thousand people

2218
02:43:27,800 --> 02:43:31,800
Speaker 2: had wanted to come? So you're in a no win.

2219
02:43:32,600 --> 02:43:36,959
Speaker 2: And I remember after that show, Mark and I were

2220
02:43:36,959 --> 02:43:39,480
Speaker 2: having a drink in this hotel and there were two

2221
02:43:39,600 --> 02:43:43,640
Speaker 2: ladies there from the record company, entirely professionally, I should add,

2222
02:43:44,600 --> 02:43:50,360
Speaker 2: and he suddenly said to me, he said, I made

2223
02:43:50,360 --> 02:43:55,000
Speaker 2: a crap record in front of the record company people.

2224
02:43:56,400 --> 02:43:59,400
Speaker 2: And I went, no, you didn't. I said, you didn't

2225
02:43:59,400 --> 02:44:04,800
Speaker 2: make a commercial record. There's a difference. And I'm thinking

2226
02:44:04,840 --> 02:44:07,000
Speaker 2: these two girls are going to go back and repeat.

2227
02:44:07,040 --> 02:44:12,800
Speaker 2: This conversation is going to go right round them, and

2228
02:44:12,840 --> 02:44:14,400
Speaker 2: he just kind of got up and went to bed.

2229
02:44:15,160 --> 02:44:22,320
Speaker 2: That comes with the territory, you know, if you there

2230
02:44:22,600 --> 02:44:25,240
Speaker 2: there are ants out there that have had a lifetime

2231
02:44:25,280 --> 02:44:29,359
Speaker 2: of god knows how many decades. The Stones Bruce Springsteen

2232
02:44:32,680 --> 02:44:41,119
Speaker 2: when they were going to Floyd, uh, and I sometimes

2233
02:44:41,120 --> 02:44:43,560
Speaker 2: look at them and I think, I mean, good for

2234
02:44:43,760 --> 02:44:46,480
Speaker 2: good for you. You've managed somehow, you've managed to keep

2235
02:44:46,520 --> 02:44:50,840
Speaker 2: the plates spinning. And the interesting thing to me about

2236
02:44:50,840 --> 02:44:53,640
Speaker 2: the Stones, for instances is that they don't make particularly

2237
02:44:53,680 --> 02:44:56,640
Speaker 2: good records. I mean, sometimes they come out with one

2238
02:44:56,760 --> 02:45:02,280
Speaker 2: that's better than the others, but they've turned the big

2239
02:45:02,320 --> 02:45:07,640
Speaker 2: outdoor stadium into an art form. Pink Floyd turned that

2240
02:45:07,680 --> 02:45:12,000
Speaker 2: into an art form. But then then then you've got

2241
02:45:12,000 --> 02:45:19,520
Speaker 2: these two characters, Roger and David, who just don't get.

2242
02:45:19,360 --> 02:45:24,720
Speaker 1: On, okay, putting a bow on it. How much longer

2243
02:45:24,720 --> 02:45:27,200
Speaker 1: do you work with Mark? And how does it end?

2244
02:45:27,240 --> 02:45:27,720
Speaker 1: With Mark?

2245
02:45:28,640 --> 02:45:35,640
Speaker 2: Right? Well, after the on Every Street thing on every

2246
02:45:35,640 --> 02:45:42,560
Speaker 2: Street to and record staggered literally like a very very

2247
02:45:42,680 --> 02:45:46,520
Speaker 2: very drunk man towards the gutter, and then he fell

2248
02:45:46,560 --> 02:45:50,800
Speaker 2: in it. It was quite clear at the end of

2249
02:45:50,840 --> 02:45:54,520
Speaker 2: that well, he actually was quite clear from almost the

2250
02:45:54,560 --> 02:45:58,120
Speaker 2: beginning of it that we were doing it for the

2251
02:45:58,160 --> 02:46:06,640
Speaker 2: wrong reason, and that written were all reasons, partly monetary,

2252
02:46:08,320 --> 02:46:13,920
Speaker 2: partly don't take the strong way. But things that I

2253
02:46:14,400 --> 02:46:17,600
Speaker 2: probably shouldn't tell you about, personal stuff, you know, that

2254
02:46:17,920 --> 02:46:29,000
Speaker 2: was going on, and the band just it wasn't even

2255
02:46:29,120 --> 02:46:33,080
Speaker 2: spoken about. That was what was so strange. Nobody sat around,

2256
02:46:33,080 --> 02:46:37,160
Speaker 2: nobody gave it six months and just said, you know

2257
02:46:37,800 --> 02:46:40,280
Speaker 2: what a war hand. How do we feel about this?

2258
02:46:40,480 --> 02:46:44,560
Speaker 2: Because because you've got a lot of very tight relationships

2259
02:46:44,600 --> 02:46:46,680
Speaker 2: that have gone on at that point for nearly twenty

2260
02:46:47,240 --> 02:46:49,879
Speaker 2: twenty plus years, and there are people who were just

2261
02:46:49,959 --> 02:46:54,879
Speaker 2: completely not speaking to each other and haven't to this day.

2262
02:46:57,360 --> 02:47:02,720
Speaker 2: And Mark decided, and he was propelled at least in

2263
02:47:02,840 --> 02:47:15,160
Speaker 2: part by the Nashville connection. If you like that he

2264
02:47:15,360 --> 02:47:19,480
Speaker 2: was going to he was obviously going to record the

2265
02:47:19,520 --> 02:47:24,880
Speaker 2: songs that he wrote and what he wanted I think,

2266
02:47:25,920 --> 02:47:29,320
Speaker 2: and this is me being an amateur psychiatrist, which I'm not.

2267
02:47:32,160 --> 02:47:34,720
Speaker 2: He wanted to get himself into a position where he

2268
02:47:34,760 --> 02:47:41,440
Speaker 2: was completely in control. He wasn't having to everybody who's

2269
02:47:41,760 --> 02:47:45,280
Speaker 2: played in the units he's had since, and they've really

2270
02:47:45,320 --> 02:47:49,120
Speaker 2: been pretty much the same people are. Essentially, you're a

2271
02:47:49,840 --> 02:47:58,080
Speaker 2: division Nashville studio players, and studio players by definition essentially

2272
02:47:58,120 --> 02:48:05,080
Speaker 2: play what they're told. I mean Richard Bennett, who plays

2273
02:48:05,080 --> 02:48:07,920
Speaker 2: guitar with him. Was with Neil Diamond for nineteen years

2274
02:48:07,959 --> 02:48:13,920
Speaker 2: playing I Am, I said, for nineteen years and Sweet

2275
02:48:13,959 --> 02:48:19,640
Speaker 2: Caroline and soon it's great stuff. But so he did

2276
02:48:20,200 --> 02:48:23,520
Speaker 2: the Golden Heart record, and I spent quite a bit

2277
02:48:23,560 --> 02:48:28,760
Speaker 2: of time out in Nashville, which, if you're not a player,

2278
02:48:29,680 --> 02:48:35,080
Speaker 2: is not a town which is incredibly stimulating to be in.

2279
02:48:35,560 --> 02:48:45,200
Speaker 2: And I'm not having a pop at Nashville. And as

2280
02:48:45,240 --> 02:48:54,320
Speaker 2: that record was taking form, I was starting to have doubts.

2281
02:48:55,040 --> 02:48:58,120
Speaker 2: It's a strange thing when you go into a situation

2282
02:48:59,120 --> 02:49:06,039
Speaker 2: with the belief and passion and love that I had

2283
02:49:06,320 --> 02:49:11,080
Speaker 2: for them from for the first ten years, from seventy

2284
02:49:11,120 --> 02:49:20,120
Speaker 2: eight to eighty eight, and suddenly find yourself just not

2285
02:49:20,840 --> 02:49:27,600
Speaker 2: liking it, not liking the music as much. And that's

2286
02:49:27,680 --> 02:49:30,800
Speaker 2: not to say I don't use terms like good and bad,

2287
02:49:30,920 --> 02:49:35,279
Speaker 2: because it's so personal the music I listened to personally,

2288
02:49:36,120 --> 02:49:38,800
Speaker 2: people would probably be quite surprised because I don't listen

2289
02:49:38,840 --> 02:49:41,920
Speaker 2: to rock and pop music except the stuff I grew up.

2290
02:49:42,040 --> 02:49:45,400
Speaker 2: I listened to a lot of film music. I'd listen

2291
02:49:45,480 --> 02:49:50,320
Speaker 2: to a huge amount of jazz, especially from the sixties

2292
02:49:50,320 --> 02:49:54,800
Speaker 2: and seventies, and not fusion stuff, but anyway, and that's

2293
02:49:54,800 --> 02:50:00,840
Speaker 2: by the bye, and he did that record, and there

2294
02:50:00,879 --> 02:50:03,280
Speaker 2: was I was a bit on. I think the impact,

2295
02:50:03,320 --> 02:50:05,640
Speaker 2: one of the impacts of the on every street experience

2296
02:50:05,760 --> 02:50:08,520
Speaker 2: was it had made me very unshure. That had a

2297
02:50:08,520 --> 02:50:12,640
Speaker 2: big impact on all of us mentally and physically, not

2298
02:50:12,800 --> 02:50:16,800
Speaker 2: in a good way. And I suddenly had lost my

2299
02:50:17,000 --> 02:50:22,480
Speaker 2: confidence in my own ability to pitch the thing at

2300
02:50:22,520 --> 02:50:26,960
Speaker 2: the right level. So when it came to live work,

2301
02:50:27,040 --> 02:50:32,880
Speaker 2: those Nashville players are not cheap, or you could say

2302
02:50:32,920 --> 02:50:39,440
Speaker 2: they're very cheap, because they they definitely it's how they

2303
02:50:39,480 --> 02:50:41,560
Speaker 2: make their living. I don't have a problem with that.

2304
02:50:42,560 --> 02:50:48,480
Speaker 2: And we had a very expensive band, and we had

2305
02:50:48,600 --> 02:50:53,720
Speaker 2: quite a big production, and I didn't feel confident enough

2306
02:50:53,760 --> 02:51:03,760
Speaker 2: to play big places. So it was break even time, really.

2307
02:51:05,520 --> 02:51:12,800
Speaker 2: And the other problem is that he, by which I

2308
02:51:12,879 --> 02:51:17,280
Speaker 2: mean Mark, he did not have the profile. This might

2309
02:51:17,360 --> 02:51:19,800
Speaker 2: sound strange, but you've got to pitch this back to

2310
02:51:21,280 --> 02:51:25,960
Speaker 2: that period of time two thousands. He wasn't. He didn't

2311
02:51:25,959 --> 02:51:31,280
Speaker 2: have the profile that Sting had within the police, or

2312
02:51:31,840 --> 02:51:37,000
Speaker 2: Eric had within Derek and the Dominoes, or he wasn't.

2313
02:51:39,840 --> 02:51:43,400
Speaker 2: He came in the office one morning and I happened

2314
02:51:43,400 --> 02:51:46,119
Speaker 2: to be downstairs talking to the girls, and he said

2315
02:51:46,160 --> 02:51:49,760
Speaker 2: something quite interesting. He said, because he'd obviously been watching

2316
02:51:49,760 --> 02:51:52,560
Speaker 2: Breakfast TV. And he said to me, don't you think

2317
02:51:52,600 --> 02:51:58,240
Speaker 2: it's strange that people like Elton and Rod go on

2318
02:51:58,320 --> 02:52:02,000
Speaker 2: TV and tell millions of strangers about the most intimate

2319
02:52:02,080 --> 02:52:08,560
Speaker 2: things in their lives. Like I said, well, that's their personalities.

2320
02:52:10,040 --> 02:52:13,680
Speaker 2: And I don't know whether you've read Elton's book. Elton's

2321
02:52:13,680 --> 02:52:16,640
Speaker 2: book is about as open a book as you could

2322
02:52:17,320 --> 02:52:22,040
Speaker 2: possibly find, and that's what Elton's personality is. And Rod

2323
02:52:23,320 --> 02:52:26,560
Speaker 2: is a no. I'm just using these two examples because

2324
02:52:26,560 --> 02:52:30,600
Speaker 2: he did. And Run Stewart knows the game backwards forwards

2325
02:52:30,680 --> 02:52:34,879
Speaker 2: upside down. I interviewed Narl Rogers a couple of years ago.

2326
02:52:35,440 --> 02:52:38,560
Speaker 2: It's brilliant because he knows what to do, he knows

2327
02:52:38,600 --> 02:52:44,560
Speaker 2: how to do it, and he's not people like that are.

2328
02:52:46,640 --> 02:52:53,400
Speaker 2: It's just they're happy to be stars. Mark's quite a

2329
02:52:53,440 --> 02:53:02,480
Speaker 2: private person. He's not particularly he doesn't enjoy he never

2330
02:53:02,640 --> 02:53:08,520
Speaker 2: enjoyed any of the ass the stuff that comes with

2331
02:53:08,680 --> 02:53:18,080
Speaker 2: being a rock star, whatever that is. And you asked

2332
02:53:18,080 --> 02:53:19,800
Speaker 2: what happened with me and him, Well, we did the

2333
02:53:19,840 --> 02:53:22,640
Speaker 2: Golden Heart thing, And I mean commercially that was quite

2334
02:53:22,680 --> 02:53:26,320
Speaker 2: successful and the tour did okay given the level that

2335
02:53:26,360 --> 02:53:35,200
Speaker 2: we were doing it at, and but the relationship, the

2336
02:53:35,280 --> 02:53:41,120
Speaker 2: relationship between us was shifting and we were both older. Obviously,

2337
02:53:41,240 --> 02:53:45,120
Speaker 2: it's very different when you're twenty six twenty seven and

2338
02:53:45,200 --> 02:53:48,400
Speaker 2: you meet somebody who's got a red fender and it

2339
02:53:48,400 --> 02:53:52,200
Speaker 2: makes you think that the shadows and by this time

2340
02:53:53,800 --> 02:53:59,800
Speaker 2: you're married or you're divorced, you've got children, you've got

2341
02:54:00,040 --> 02:54:04,680
Speaker 2: the responsibilities, and you think you think like a fifty

2342
02:54:04,760 --> 02:54:07,240
Speaker 2: year old person, not a twenty five year old person.

2343
02:54:07,440 --> 02:54:09,640
Speaker 2: And if you're not thinking like a fifty year old person,

2344
02:54:09,920 --> 02:54:17,800
Speaker 2: then something's wrong. And it was quite obvious as I

2345
02:54:18,120 --> 02:54:21,879
Speaker 2: as I was alluding to with the Australian thing. You know,

2346
02:54:22,000 --> 02:54:26,680
Speaker 2: the music scene is ever changing, there's new things coming along.

2347
02:54:27,440 --> 02:54:31,679
Speaker 2: Getting marked man offer on television was difficult. There's a

2348
02:54:31,720 --> 02:54:35,400
Speaker 2: line of people trying to get those slots and how

2349
02:54:35,440 --> 02:54:38,920
Speaker 2: many slots are there and in this country not many.

2350
02:54:39,840 --> 02:54:42,360
Speaker 2: And so he ended up he's the guy who took

2351
02:54:42,360 --> 02:54:45,080
Speaker 2: over from me, had him on programs with a guy

2352
02:54:45,160 --> 02:54:49,360
Speaker 2: who was basically a market gardener. Yeah, I mean kind

2353
02:54:49,400 --> 02:54:52,960
Speaker 2: of you end up. It's almost a sense of desperation

2354
02:54:53,120 --> 02:54:58,560
Speaker 2: sets in and everybody's coming along and the whole it's

2355
02:54:58,600 --> 02:55:01,959
Speaker 2: just even saying, really, the whole music industry changed. It

2356
02:55:02,040 --> 02:55:04,480
Speaker 2: became in the eighties and we were in the We

2357
02:55:04,520 --> 02:55:08,960
Speaker 2: were in the change. It went from being pretty chaotic

2358
02:55:09,959 --> 02:55:19,640
Speaker 2: to being corporate, and it's corporate now. So the last

2359
02:55:19,640 --> 02:55:22,680
Speaker 2: interview I did for the ILMC was with j Marciano

2360
02:55:23,000 --> 02:55:31,800
Speaker 2: from AG Great Guy, Lovely Man, and I actually said

2361
02:55:31,800 --> 02:55:34,080
Speaker 2: to him, I said, does AG have a sense of humor?

2362
02:55:35,000 --> 02:55:41,240
Speaker 2: And he said yes. I just started laughing. He does

2363
02:55:42,680 --> 02:55:45,000
Speaker 2: the corporations have a sense of hum you know. I mean,

2364
02:55:45,040 --> 02:55:47,560
Speaker 2: I don't have any beef against this. What happened in

2365
02:55:47,600 --> 02:55:50,279
Speaker 2: the music interest to me, and particularly the live side,

2366
02:55:50,440 --> 02:55:55,320
Speaker 2: was totally inevitable. It was completely inevitable.

2367
02:55:55,520 --> 02:55:58,280
Speaker 1: Let's go back to Mark. Yes, sorry, did he say

2368
02:55:58,320 --> 02:56:00,679
Speaker 1: we're done or did you say we're done?

2369
02:56:01,280 --> 02:56:03,920
Speaker 2: Oh? It was one of the weirdest meetings I've ever

2370
02:56:03,959 --> 02:56:10,640
Speaker 2: had in my life. And after it, after it, I

2371
02:56:10,680 --> 02:56:13,840
Speaker 2: honestly didn't know what had happened. I didn't know if

2372
02:56:13,840 --> 02:56:18,840
Speaker 2: I'd been sacked or I'd quit. We had a conversation

2373
02:56:20,480 --> 02:56:25,600
Speaker 2: he had done the record that came out of selling

2374
02:56:25,600 --> 02:56:31,320
Speaker 2: to Philadelphia and we were talking about the promotion on it,

2375
02:56:31,400 --> 02:56:36,600
Speaker 2: and without giving away too many secrets, as it were,

2376
02:56:39,600 --> 02:56:41,800
Speaker 2: he had agreed to do a certain amount of promotion

2377
02:56:42,440 --> 02:56:46,360
Speaker 2: which I had then set up, which was principally our

2378
02:56:46,400 --> 02:56:54,600
Speaker 2: old favorites, video clip TVs gigs, but he didn't want

2379
02:56:54,600 --> 02:56:56,680
Speaker 2: to do more than four months touring, which was fun.

2380
02:56:59,200 --> 02:57:02,440
Speaker 2: And I had put in all the TVs that you

2381
02:57:02,480 --> 02:57:05,600
Speaker 2: can get for somebody like him, because you can't get

2382
02:57:05,600 --> 02:57:10,560
Speaker 2: somebody like that or anybody of that age onto Saturday

2383
02:57:10,600 --> 02:57:15,600
Speaker 2: morning kids television shows. So it was the lettermans or

2384
02:57:15,879 --> 02:57:19,520
Speaker 2: whether the post is now Stephen Colbert, whoever it is,

2385
02:57:19,959 --> 02:57:26,160
Speaker 2: it was the other here Michael Parkinson, the kind of

2386
02:57:26,280 --> 02:57:31,760
Speaker 2: chat show format with musical guest, and having got the

2387
02:57:31,800 --> 02:57:39,680
Speaker 2: whole lot together in a very kind of odd way,

2388
02:57:40,400 --> 02:57:43,080
Speaker 2: he decided he didn't want to do any of them.

2389
02:57:45,920 --> 02:57:48,960
Speaker 2: And his reason was that he did not want to

2390
02:57:48,959 --> 02:57:51,840
Speaker 2: be as public a figure as that would make him.

2391
02:57:53,760 --> 02:57:56,400
Speaker 2: And I was not best pleased because I'd spent quite

2392
02:57:56,440 --> 02:57:58,640
Speaker 2: a long time doing this and it wasn't a particularly

2393
02:57:58,640 --> 02:58:03,560
Speaker 2: easy thing to do, and I didn't want the record

2394
02:58:03,560 --> 02:58:07,920
Speaker 2: companies and someone to be demotivated, because when you go

2395
02:58:08,000 --> 02:58:12,560
Speaker 2: to Belgium to do, Telly, you end up doing a

2396
02:58:12,560 --> 02:58:16,480
Speaker 2: pile of interviews, so you have print going on, or

2397
02:58:16,760 --> 02:58:21,080
Speaker 2: whatever the technology is of the time. And we had

2398
02:58:21,320 --> 02:58:27,960
Speaker 2: and his pa rang me up and told me, and

2399
02:58:28,000 --> 02:58:30,160
Speaker 2: I had him come into the office one evening, just

2400
02:58:30,200 --> 02:58:35,720
Speaker 2: me and him, and we had a very surreal conversation

2401
02:58:37,600 --> 02:58:44,320
Speaker 2: which ended with him, well, it ended with I don't

2402
02:58:44,360 --> 02:58:47,640
Speaker 2: know how honestly, if I could explain it to you,

2403
02:58:47,720 --> 02:58:50,760
Speaker 2: I would. I don't really know what happened. It was

2404
02:58:50,800 --> 02:58:55,800
Speaker 2: a bit like Bill's comment about Robert Plant. I just

2405
02:58:55,920 --> 02:58:59,959
Speaker 2: thought that he said something to me which was so upset.

2406
02:59:01,360 --> 02:59:05,640
Speaker 2: I just thought, I can't do this anymore. And you

2407
02:59:05,760 --> 02:59:07,840
Speaker 2: have to put that in the context. And I would

2408
02:59:07,840 --> 02:59:10,920
Speaker 2: say that of Bill, and Bill would absolutely agree with me.

2409
02:59:11,760 --> 02:59:14,640
Speaker 2: It's a lot easier to be able to say that

2410
02:59:14,640 --> 02:59:21,640
Speaker 2: when you can, you know, and sometimes in life it's

2411
02:59:21,760 --> 02:59:25,120
Speaker 2: like marriages and all that. Everybody uses that example, and

2412
02:59:25,160 --> 02:59:30,760
Speaker 2: actually managing acts is not like being married. But things

2413
02:59:30,879 --> 02:59:34,039
Speaker 2: just have run their course, and it had run its course,

2414
02:59:34,240 --> 02:59:36,440
Speaker 2: and it had probably run it. We were probably quite

2415
02:59:36,480 --> 02:59:39,280
Speaker 2: a bit by our cell by day, and I said

2416
02:59:39,320 --> 02:59:42,720
Speaker 2: to him, I mentioned somebody else who happened to be

2417
02:59:42,720 --> 02:59:44,800
Speaker 2: in the building at the time. For you know, who

2418
02:59:44,920 --> 02:59:47,879
Speaker 2: was working on the promo tool that we I thought

2419
02:59:47,879 --> 02:59:51,560
Speaker 2: we were going to do. And I said, if you

2420
02:59:51,600 --> 02:59:53,879
Speaker 2: pay him a salary, he knows how to get you

2421
02:59:53,920 --> 02:59:55,720
Speaker 2: from A to B and do you think he's funny?

2422
02:59:57,080 --> 03:00:04,480
Speaker 2: So that's what happened. And then the irony was that

2423
03:00:04,520 --> 03:00:07,360
Speaker 2: he went off and he did seventy television shows Europe

2424
03:00:07,400 --> 03:00:11,439
Speaker 2: in the UK on that record. I have don't understand

2425
03:00:12,360 --> 03:00:16,400
Speaker 2: and our relationship now he lives literally one hundred and

2426
03:00:16,440 --> 03:00:19,800
Speaker 2: fifty yards from where I'm speaking to you from this apartment,

2427
03:00:20,400 --> 03:00:25,599
Speaker 2: and I don't see him. We have the occasional interaction

2428
03:00:25,879 --> 03:00:30,200
Speaker 2: which is usually something to do with which happened when

2429
03:00:30,200 --> 03:00:32,760
Speaker 2: we were together. I mean, when he went on tour

2430
03:00:32,800 --> 03:00:38,520
Speaker 2: with Bob Dylan, you know, a double bill thing. I

2431
03:00:38,560 --> 03:00:42,119
Speaker 2: got an email from him that in itself is amazing.

2432
03:00:43,720 --> 03:00:46,960
Speaker 2: There was a wonderful interview some years ago with Charlie

2433
03:00:46,959 --> 03:00:52,160
Speaker 2: Watson Ronnie Wood, and Ronnie was telling Charlie Charlie was

2434
03:00:52,200 --> 03:00:57,320
Speaker 2: a wonderful man, fantastic guy. He mentioned that Keith Richards

2435
03:00:57,320 --> 03:01:00,720
Speaker 2: had sent an email and I thought Charli was going

2436
03:01:00,760 --> 03:01:05,120
Speaker 2: to have a comera, but Mars would send me an

2437
03:01:05,120 --> 03:01:07,200
Speaker 2: email and he sent me this email, I can do

2438
03:01:07,240 --> 03:01:11,240
Speaker 2: it for baiting for you. It said, Well, he hasn't

2439
03:01:11,280 --> 03:01:16,039
Speaker 2: spoken to me, he hasn't spoken to my manager, he

2440
03:01:16,080 --> 03:01:18,400
Speaker 2: hasn't spoken to my band, and he hasn't spoken to

2441
03:01:18,440 --> 03:01:21,800
Speaker 2: any of my crew. He hasn't spoken to his band,

2442
03:01:22,360 --> 03:01:26,840
Speaker 2: and he hasn't spoken to his manager. Nothing changes, Boss.

2443
03:01:26,840 --> 03:01:29,400
Speaker 2: The love mark didn't even tell me who it was

2444
03:01:29,440 --> 03:01:30,760
Speaker 2: and it was straight away.

2445
03:01:32,760 --> 03:01:35,320
Speaker 1: Okay, it's the it's.

2446
03:01:35,120 --> 03:01:37,160
Speaker 2: The sorry just to I know we're going to be

2447
03:01:37,200 --> 03:01:42,959
Speaker 2: finishing up the It's the characters for the generation that

2448
03:01:43,040 --> 03:01:48,119
Speaker 2: I belong to that has made it interesting. The people

2449
03:01:48,160 --> 03:01:54,680
Speaker 2: who've got a sense of humor about themselves. Somebody who

2450
03:01:54,800 --> 03:01:58,720
Speaker 2: was like that, who people would never imagine she was

2451
03:01:58,800 --> 03:02:04,560
Speaker 2: like that, was Tina Toern. Tina was so funny. She

2452
03:02:05,600 --> 03:02:08,320
Speaker 2: was such a gossip. Who's going out with so and so,

2453
03:02:08,840 --> 03:02:14,599
Speaker 2: Who's was who's having sex with? Brilliant? Brilliant?

2454
03:02:15,360 --> 03:02:19,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Dire Streets was very successful. We went through your

2455
03:02:20,040 --> 03:02:32,080
Speaker 1: various percentages. What did you do with all the money?

2456
03:02:27,200 --> 03:02:35,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, being from the North of England and having a

2457
03:02:36,000 --> 03:02:40,040
Speaker 2: father who was the principal of a large grammar school,

2458
03:02:40,800 --> 03:02:59,480
Speaker 2: I was careful put it into property pension funds because

2459
03:02:59,480 --> 03:03:01,920
Speaker 2: we get a very good tax break thing in this

2460
03:03:02,040 --> 03:03:11,280
Speaker 2: country on pension funds, had a great life. I'm in

2461
03:03:11,360 --> 03:03:14,160
Speaker 2: traveled a lot because when you're traveling with bands, you're

2462
03:03:14,200 --> 03:03:17,280
Speaker 2: not traveling. You're in a just You're in this just box.

2463
03:03:23,400 --> 03:03:27,720
Speaker 2: I don't say this, should I say this? I helped

2464
03:03:27,720 --> 03:03:32,360
Speaker 2: a few people. I think there's a kind of when

2465
03:03:32,440 --> 03:03:48,120
Speaker 2: you have such a when you have such a when

2466
03:03:48,160 --> 03:03:52,560
Speaker 2: you live your dream, when you get to live your dream.

2467
03:03:56,360 --> 03:04:03,680
Speaker 2: I never stopped being surprised about the financial end. Ever,

2468
03:04:03,240 --> 03:04:05,720
Speaker 2: I could never get my head around it at all.

2469
03:04:06,920 --> 03:04:13,160
Speaker 2: So sometimes you help people out. You certainly, of course

2470
03:04:13,360 --> 03:04:15,240
Speaker 2: help your kids out if you can. My kids are

2471
03:04:15,240 --> 03:04:20,680
Speaker 2: grown now. I mean I've got grandchildren. My grandson's fifteen

2472
03:04:20,720 --> 03:04:26,240
Speaker 2: and my granddaughter's thirteen, and I'm very proud of my kids.

2473
03:04:26,600 --> 03:04:31,720
Speaker 2: My daughters are very high ranked lawyer at Meta for

2474
03:04:31,800 --> 03:04:37,480
Speaker 2: Better or Worse, driving her mad and my son teaches

2475
03:04:37,520 --> 03:04:42,960
Speaker 2: foreign students English on the web, and they're great. They're

2476
03:04:43,000 --> 03:04:52,640
Speaker 2: totally different. But I have I don't buy art or stuff,

2477
03:04:52,680 --> 03:04:56,599
Speaker 2: but I've got some nice antiques. But I'm not particularly

2478
03:04:57,840 --> 03:05:00,120
Speaker 2: I think you go through phases. I always say that

2479
03:05:00,200 --> 03:05:02,720
Speaker 2: people in the rock and roll game, they go through

2480
03:05:02,760 --> 03:05:05,080
Speaker 2: their art New vaux phase, and then they go through

2481
03:05:05,120 --> 03:05:08,280
Speaker 2: their Art Deco phase and then they come out at

2482
03:05:08,320 --> 03:05:10,440
Speaker 2: the other end and get a sofa that's comfortable to

2483
03:05:10,480 --> 03:05:15,800
Speaker 2: sit on. And it's always like that, and there's a

2484
03:05:15,840 --> 03:05:23,199
Speaker 2: real pressure in our society, of course, because it's capitalist consumers.

2485
03:05:23,840 --> 03:05:25,840
Speaker 2: I might have said this to you was before. It's

2486
03:05:25,879 --> 03:05:28,080
Speaker 2: a long time since I didn't pick up the check

2487
03:05:28,080 --> 03:05:28,560
Speaker 2: at dinner.

2488
03:05:30,480 --> 03:05:34,760
Speaker 1: But that's yes, let's just go one step further. You

2489
03:05:34,800 --> 03:05:37,760
Speaker 1: were the one and only manager of dire streets, which

2490
03:05:37,800 --> 03:05:42,360
Speaker 1: is not usually the case, and usually when they get

2491
03:05:42,400 --> 03:05:46,000
Speaker 1: a new manager there's an argument over the sunset clause

2492
03:05:46,080 --> 03:05:50,320
Speaker 1: and all this other stuff. In your particular case, are

2493
03:05:50,360 --> 03:05:54,080
Speaker 1: you still a royalty participant on the stuff you were

2494
03:05:54,080 --> 03:05:54,680
Speaker 1: involved with?

2495
03:05:55,360 --> 03:05:58,119
Speaker 2: No, but I chose not to be. I sold those rights.

2496
03:05:58,560 --> 03:05:59,840
Speaker 1: And how long agoing too?

2497
03:06:00,000 --> 03:06:09,120
Speaker 2: Oh, I told those about six years ago, seven years

2498
03:06:09,120 --> 03:06:15,360
Speaker 2: ago to a company called Royalty Exchange in Denver. I

2499
03:06:15,360 --> 03:06:25,880
Speaker 2: mean that that was partly to do with a divorce

2500
03:06:26,000 --> 03:06:32,440
Speaker 2: that was looming. It was partly to do with I

2501
03:06:32,600 --> 03:06:36,240
Speaker 2: just kind of got fed up running it all, and

2502
03:06:36,320 --> 03:06:38,440
Speaker 2: it was partly to do with the fact that there

2503
03:06:38,560 --> 03:06:43,800
Speaker 2: was a decline. Now I'm not saying that it's a

2504
03:06:43,840 --> 03:06:46,640
Speaker 2: massive decline. And I don't know because I don't get

2505
03:06:46,640 --> 03:06:50,920
Speaker 2: statements anymore, but I'm sure that the distracts catalogue that

2506
03:06:51,640 --> 03:06:54,840
Speaker 2: I need to qualify this. I had a sunset clause

2507
03:06:55,000 --> 03:06:59,760
Speaker 2: on publishing which had a cut off date. It was long,

2508
03:07:00,080 --> 03:07:03,400
Speaker 2: but the cutoff date had passed and the publishing was

2509
03:07:03,440 --> 03:07:08,560
Speaker 2: about sixty percent of the total. And the record side,

2510
03:07:09,520 --> 03:07:14,519
Speaker 2: especially after streaming came in and the entire artistic community

2511
03:07:14,640 --> 03:07:21,160
Speaker 2: got stuffed, that had declined. And quite soon, of course

2512
03:07:21,200 --> 03:07:27,520
Speaker 2: there will be an Ai Nofler a little be even less.

2513
03:07:28,200 --> 03:07:35,720
Speaker 2: But I just then there were personal reasons, psychological reasons sometimes,

2514
03:07:36,040 --> 03:07:38,920
Speaker 2: you know, if you've had some of the stuff that

2515
03:07:38,959 --> 03:07:42,480
Speaker 2: went down at the end was pretty awful. And I'm

2516
03:07:42,480 --> 03:07:44,480
Speaker 2: not saying I'm not saying I'm blameless.

2517
03:07:44,480 --> 03:07:46,680
Speaker 1: Don't you talk about the end of the band or

2518
03:07:47,040 --> 03:07:49,280
Speaker 1: just before you solved your royalty interest?

2519
03:07:49,640 --> 03:07:53,200
Speaker 2: No, the end of the relationship with that side of

2520
03:07:53,240 --> 03:07:56,440
Speaker 2: the relationship with Mark. I mean, he and I perfectly

2521
03:07:56,480 --> 03:07:59,520
Speaker 2: polite with each other. I don't listen to his music,

2522
03:08:00,120 --> 03:08:05,760
Speaker 2: don't have I don't feel any connection with it. I mean,

2523
03:08:05,800 --> 03:08:10,960
Speaker 2: I don't know whether you know Bill curvisly sits around

2524
03:08:11,080 --> 03:08:16,720
Speaker 2: listening to Judas Priest albums when he goes home. Probably not.

2525
03:08:17,080 --> 03:08:21,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, I think you. I learned a

2526
03:08:21,240 --> 03:08:27,760
Speaker 2: lot from Peter Grant. Now, Peter Grant is if you

2527
03:08:27,800 --> 03:08:31,560
Speaker 2: mentioned Peter Grant's name and people and people who remember him,

2528
03:08:31,600 --> 03:08:37,560
Speaker 2: and people do remember him, tell you a funny little

2529
03:08:37,600 --> 03:08:43,240
Speaker 2: story because it came up last night. Full enough. Back

2530
03:08:43,280 --> 03:08:51,920
Speaker 2: in the late sixties, Peter shared an office on Oxford

2531
03:08:51,959 --> 03:08:57,199
Speaker 2: Street in London with Mickey most famed South African record

2532
03:08:57,200 --> 03:09:05,480
Speaker 2: producer Nicky Chin the songwriter I was mentioning had got

2533
03:09:05,879 --> 03:09:09,240
Speaker 2: had met a waiter at a club called Annabel's whose

2534
03:09:09,320 --> 03:09:13,920
Speaker 2: name was Mike Chapman, who was serving him drinks. I

2535
03:09:13,959 --> 03:09:20,480
Speaker 2: love stuff like this, So somebody's told Mike. The disc

2536
03:09:20,520 --> 03:09:24,320
Speaker 2: jockeys told Mike that Nicky is a songwriter lyricist, and

2537
03:09:24,360 --> 03:09:28,039
Speaker 2: Mike's thick considers himself to be a melody writer. So

2538
03:09:28,120 --> 03:09:31,040
Speaker 2: Mike's sister NICKI, I write songs, and Nicky says I

2539
03:09:31,120 --> 03:09:34,000
Speaker 2: write songs, and that neither of them has written Diddley's Squit.

2540
03:09:34,640 --> 03:09:39,840
Speaker 2: But they get together. Nicky finds out the name and

2541
03:09:39,959 --> 03:09:44,480
Speaker 2: phone of the phone number of Mickey most Pa, so

2542
03:09:44,520 --> 03:09:47,039
Speaker 2: he rings her up and he asks her out on

2543
03:09:47,080 --> 03:09:50,400
Speaker 2: a blind date and she goes and on the day

2544
03:09:50,600 --> 03:09:56,240
Speaker 2: he inveigels Mickey's home phone number out of her. This

2545
03:09:56,320 --> 03:09:58,520
Speaker 2: is this is our this is when it was fun.

2546
03:09:59,240 --> 03:10:01,800
Speaker 2: So he goes how it's the middle of bloody night,

2547
03:10:02,400 --> 03:10:06,240
Speaker 2: and he calls the number, and this very gruff voice

2548
03:10:06,280 --> 03:10:09,640
Speaker 2: because he's just been woken up, says she's Mickey most

2549
03:10:09,640 --> 03:10:14,240
Speaker 2: who's that? And Nicky comes on and Nicky says, this

2550
03:10:14,320 --> 03:10:18,280
Speaker 2: is Nicky Chin. I'm a songwriter with Mike Chapman. We

2551
03:10:18,440 --> 03:10:23,760
Speaker 2: write hits. They haven't written a song. Sorry, they have

2552
03:10:23,879 --> 03:10:28,959
Speaker 2: written some songs, they've not had anything like it. And

2553
03:10:29,040 --> 03:10:31,680
Speaker 2: Micky mos did something which is probably what I would

2554
03:10:31,680 --> 03:10:35,400
Speaker 2: have done. Micky said to them, all right, my office

2555
03:10:35,560 --> 03:10:39,440
Speaker 2: eleven o'clock tomorrow morning, now fuck off. Puts the phone down.

2556
03:10:39,959 --> 03:10:45,000
Speaker 2: So they turn up and it turns out that NICKI

2557
03:10:45,320 --> 03:10:49,800
Speaker 2: that Mickey is sharing an office with Peter Grant and

2558
03:10:49,840 --> 03:10:54,160
Speaker 2: it's about twelve feet wide by sixteen foot long, and

2559
03:10:54,200 --> 03:10:57,680
Speaker 2: there are two desks and Peter, at the time weighed

2560
03:10:57,720 --> 03:11:01,640
Speaker 2: over three hundred pounds and Mickey's like this little bloke.

2561
03:11:01,720 --> 03:11:05,240
Speaker 2: And it's a famous address in London called one five

2562
03:11:05,280 --> 03:11:08,879
Speaker 2: to five Oxford Street because below them were Chris Wright

2563
03:11:08,920 --> 03:11:14,760
Speaker 2: and Terry Allis being Chrysalis, and below then were the

2564
03:11:14,800 --> 03:11:22,560
Speaker 2: Chrystalies agency booking out. So they go in and they

2565
03:11:22,600 --> 03:11:26,760
Speaker 2: give and they got some demos cut on forty five's

2566
03:11:28,000 --> 03:11:31,640
Speaker 2: No Sorry tape, Big Bum cassette tape. Ingo's the tape.

2567
03:11:31,640 --> 03:11:34,600
Speaker 2: Mickey plays the first song, stops it after ten seconds

2568
03:11:34,720 --> 03:11:41,359
Speaker 2: it's rubbish, rolls it on next one fifteen seconds, rubbish,

2569
03:11:42,080 --> 03:11:49,160
Speaker 2: Rubbish plays six songs, rubbish and he went, nah, nothing, nothing,

2570
03:11:49,240 --> 03:11:51,000
Speaker 2: there nothing. They can't do anything with any of that.

2571
03:11:52,200 --> 03:11:55,080
Speaker 2: And he says, you got anything else, and Nicky says, well,

2572
03:11:55,080 --> 03:12:00,280
Speaker 2: we've got one other song and it was cool old

2573
03:12:03,760 --> 03:12:07,040
Speaker 2: believe it or not. It was called Tom Tom turn around.

2574
03:12:07,840 --> 03:12:11,640
Speaker 2: Puts it in, listens to the whole thing. He says,

2575
03:12:11,920 --> 03:12:14,600
Speaker 2: which one of you two twats called me last night?

2576
03:12:15,120 --> 03:12:18,120
Speaker 2: And Nicki goes, that was me and he says, you

2577
03:12:18,200 --> 03:12:20,080
Speaker 2: said you're the one who said you can write hits,

2578
03:12:20,080 --> 03:12:22,840
Speaker 2: and Nicky goes, yeah. He says, you're right, you can.

2579
03:12:23,040 --> 03:12:25,959
Speaker 2: That's a hit. I'll take it, and it's a big hit.

2580
03:12:25,959 --> 03:12:30,039
Speaker 2: It's the number one for sweet groups when they go out.

2581
03:12:33,080 --> 03:12:38,120
Speaker 2: Nicky told Nicki this many years later, Peter says, I

2582
03:12:38,160 --> 03:12:40,800
Speaker 2: don't think you're going to get anywhere with those two.

2583
03:12:41,560 --> 03:12:45,680
Speaker 2: They're fucking newslet. And of course they had hit after

2584
03:12:45,800 --> 03:12:50,160
Speaker 2: hit after hit after it after it. What I learned

2585
03:12:50,160 --> 03:12:58,600
Speaker 2: from Peter was that the fuggy image was Peter was

2586
03:12:58,600 --> 03:13:03,400
Speaker 2: a shy man or not. He was quite private. He

2587
03:13:03,440 --> 03:13:06,160
Speaker 2: was quite shy, and it was all a bit of

2588
03:13:06,200 --> 03:13:10,320
Speaker 2: an act, helped by the fact that before he got

2589
03:13:10,320 --> 03:13:12,840
Speaker 2: into music he had been an amateur. He'd been a

2590
03:13:12,879 --> 03:13:20,199
Speaker 2: professional wrestler. His wrestling name was Count Bruno Alisi of Milan, Italy,

2591
03:13:20,760 --> 03:13:26,080
Speaker 2: which in itself is hilarious. And when I got to

2592
03:13:26,160 --> 03:13:30,720
Speaker 2: know Peter, and he had stopped the drugs by then,

2593
03:13:31,720 --> 03:13:36,680
Speaker 2: I must and he wouldn't mind me saying that. I mean,

2594
03:13:36,760 --> 03:13:40,080
Speaker 2: his his desk was like the last scene of Scarface

2595
03:13:40,320 --> 03:13:49,480
Speaker 2: most of the time, and he was his persona. He'd

2596
03:13:49,480 --> 03:13:53,880
Speaker 2: become a country gentleman. He used to wear suits with ties.

2597
03:13:55,040 --> 03:13:58,240
Speaker 2: And he lost. He lost. He said to me once,

2598
03:13:58,280 --> 03:14:03,160
Speaker 2: he said, ed I've lost a person in weight, And

2599
03:14:03,440 --> 03:14:05,640
Speaker 2: ARMED said to me once, he said, when I saw

2600
03:14:05,760 --> 03:14:10,879
Speaker 2: Peter Grant, I didn't recognize him, And he said, and

2601
03:14:11,000 --> 03:14:14,480
Speaker 2: the whole way you've spoken everything, and what Peter had

2602
03:14:14,480 --> 03:14:22,000
Speaker 2: done was he had decided. People constantly asking him to

2603
03:14:22,040 --> 03:14:24,160
Speaker 2: get back into the business, and would you manage this,

2604
03:14:24,440 --> 03:14:29,560
Speaker 2: and Queen Queen he turned Queen down. He understood. He

2605
03:14:29,600 --> 03:14:33,920
Speaker 2: said to me, when you have an experience like the

2606
03:14:33,959 --> 03:14:36,959
Speaker 2: one I had with led Zeppelin and the one you've

2607
03:14:37,000 --> 03:14:40,760
Speaker 2: had with Diastreit, there is no point trying to repeat it.

2608
03:14:42,000 --> 03:14:47,480
Speaker 2: And I completely agreed with that. There's no point going

2609
03:14:47,680 --> 03:14:51,600
Speaker 2: back and trying to recreate something that you did when

2610
03:14:51,640 --> 03:14:56,000
Speaker 2: you were thirty two and your I'm seventy five now.

2611
03:14:58,080 --> 03:15:00,480
Speaker 2: So what I do now, Bob, is I go music

2612
03:15:00,560 --> 03:15:06,199
Speaker 2: conferences like CMW in Toronto, and I ring up Don

2613
03:15:06,320 --> 03:15:09,960
Speaker 2: Passman and came to come and who else? Bill Silver

2614
03:15:11,520 --> 03:15:12,360
Speaker 2: and it'll be fun.

2615
03:15:12,920 --> 03:15:15,680
Speaker 1: Well, certainly two good friends of mine. I will see

2616
03:15:15,680 --> 03:15:20,320
Speaker 1: you in Toronto soon. There's a whole other area that

2617
03:15:20,360 --> 03:15:23,120
Speaker 1: we never even touched. Will do down the line, but

2618
03:15:23,240 --> 03:15:26,880
Speaker 1: I think we got most of the dire stray.

2619
03:15:26,760 --> 03:15:28,560
Speaker 2: Give me a hint on the other area.

2620
03:15:28,800 --> 03:15:32,320
Speaker 1: I'm just well, I would like to know more about

2621
03:15:32,400 --> 03:15:35,879
Speaker 1: Jerry Rafferty, who I'm a bit saying of. I would

2622
03:15:35,959 --> 03:15:39,840
Speaker 1: also like to hear about your experience with Brian Ferry

2623
03:15:39,920 --> 03:15:42,000
Speaker 1: and your experiences with a Blue Nile.

2624
03:15:42,920 --> 03:15:44,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Taylor Swift, your.

2625
03:15:44,840 --> 03:15:49,680
Speaker 1: Favorite right, and how you promoted shows in college and

2626
03:15:49,720 --> 03:15:50,800
Speaker 1: how you became.

2627
03:15:50,480 --> 03:15:55,400
Speaker 2: An I will say, just to sign off, that's there's

2628
03:15:55,400 --> 03:15:59,680
Speaker 2: some great topics and stories there about everybody you just mentioned,

2629
03:16:00,120 --> 03:16:07,320
Speaker 2: because they all the other artists I work with. Jerry

2630
03:16:07,440 --> 03:16:11,440
Speaker 2: was difficult, but I loved Scott Walker, who you didn't

2631
03:16:11,480 --> 03:16:15,760
Speaker 2: mention just there. I thought Jerry had a prodigious talent

2632
03:16:15,920 --> 03:16:18,520
Speaker 2: which got wasted because of alcohol. I'm not going I

2633
03:16:18,560 --> 03:16:26,280
Speaker 2: won't do the thing now. And Brian. Brian's a one off,

2634
03:16:26,920 --> 03:16:33,280
Speaker 2: but I'm on good terms with everybody. I've represented most

2635
03:16:33,320 --> 03:16:37,800
Speaker 2: of them. It's the situation with Mark is just strange,

2636
03:16:37,920 --> 03:16:41,720
Speaker 2: and it's just you get to the point where you

2637
03:16:41,920 --> 03:16:44,560
Speaker 2: just accept the way things are. There's no point pushing

2638
03:16:44,600 --> 03:16:48,280
Speaker 2: against it. I've really enjoyed this. This has been great.

2639
03:16:49,080 --> 03:16:51,400
Speaker 2: I must say that you. I'm going to flatter you.

2640
03:16:52,320 --> 03:16:56,440
Speaker 2: I've been interviewed many times by many people. You're in

2641
03:16:56,440 --> 03:17:00,080
Speaker 2: a class of your own. Definitely, you've really know what

2642
03:17:00,160 --> 03:17:04,320
Speaker 2: happened makes makes somebody sweat.

2643
03:17:07,040 --> 03:17:11,280
Speaker 1: Well, on that note, and I'll see you in Toronto.

2644
03:17:10,959 --> 03:17:13,000
Speaker 2: You will. I wish you well, Bob.

2645
03:17:13,080 --> 03:17:16,600
Speaker 1: I wish you well. Until next time. This is Bob

2646
03:17:16,760 --> 03:17:17,400
Speaker 1: Left SAIDs