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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: But it's a Saturday in October. So not only are

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Speaker 1: we going into the dark of the Vault today, it

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Speaker 1: seems that we're going to be waiting into a pool

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Speaker 1: full of green scum. This is gonna be our episode

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Speaker 1: about Jenny Green Teeth. This was one of my favorites, Robert, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this one is a lot of fun, Old Jenny Green Teeth,

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Speaker 1: Old Nelly long Arms, Peg Powler the grind below all

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Speaker 1: that this originally published on October two. We got a

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Speaker 1: lot of good listener mail about this one. So if

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Speaker 1: you enjoyed this Vault episode and you want to hear

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Speaker 1: more here people doing doing feedback about Jenny green Teeth,

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Speaker 1: go check out whatever was our listener mail episode following

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Speaker 1: this when this episode originally aired. With respect to Jenny

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Speaker 1: Green Teeth, well, do I remember in childhood stays and

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Speaker 1: isolated Gordon Farmstead with a yeoman's house dating back to

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Speaker 1: the early part of the seventeenth century, almost overshading. It

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Speaker 1: was a somber old yew tree, doubtless coeval, but then

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Speaker 1: beginning to decay. The end was being hastened by the

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Speaker 1: annual Yule tide custom of lopping off the branches in

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Speaker 1: order to decorate the tiny leaden casemented windows than existing

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Speaker 1: in the house, and also in a chapel hard by

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Speaker 1: the green of a neighboring village. Lying at some depth

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Speaker 1: beneath the grassy hillock on which the fine old tree

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Speaker 1: had so long stood sentinel was a deep dismal pool

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Speaker 1: which had sometimes been excavated as a marl pit. Of course,

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Speaker 1: little lads and lasses, with no other playmates than themselves,

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Speaker 1: would now and then, when other pastimes had been run through,

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Speaker 1: amused themselves by sailing mimic flats and boats in order

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Speaker 1: to deter them from approaching so dangerous a spot. When

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Speaker 1: caught upon the steps leading down to the lading hole,

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Speaker 1: an anxious mother would affirm solemnly, as we then thought

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Speaker 1: that jinny green teeth was artfully lurking in the waters below.

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Speaker 1: Proof of the story was afforded to our unsophisticated minds

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Speaker 1: by the exhibition of a set of human teeth enameled

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Speaker 1: with green tartar. These were said to bear only a

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Speaker 1: faint resemblance to those of the demonus below, who, with

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Speaker 1: her long, sinewy arms, first drew children in and then

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Speaker 1: devoured them. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from

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Speaker 1: how Stuffworks dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe

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Speaker 1: McCormick and Robert. I'm so excited. It's October. Yes, we

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Speaker 1: are into our our October offerings. Here a full month

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Speaker 1: of of Halloween flavored content, monster science, a whole month.

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Speaker 1: It's it's the most wonderful time of the year. And

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Speaker 1: I think I say that every year it is. Now. Granted,

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Speaker 1: we do let a few other monsters, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: leak out and crawl out during the rest of the year,

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Speaker 1: but but we do set aside a number of different

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Speaker 1: topics just for this month's celebration. So that passage that

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Speaker 1: I read at the beginning of the episode was from

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Speaker 1: a letter by a folklorist named John Higson, English folklorist

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Speaker 1: from Lee's who chronicles stories of fairies and Boggart's uh.

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Speaker 1: And it was published in Notes and Queries, a medium

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Speaker 1: of intercommunication for literary men, general readers, et cetera, from

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Speaker 1: Oxford University Press in eighteen seventy, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be quoting a little bit more from Higson's work, but

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Speaker 1: as you may have detected from that passage, today we're

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Speaker 1: going to be focusing on a particular malicious water spirit,

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Speaker 1: a sodden hag, a faery of the depths named Jenny

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Speaker 1: green Teeth, who will pull you in. Yes, to invoke

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite ClickHole videos. If you don't follow

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Speaker 1: the rules, Jenny Green Teeth will kill you with their

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Speaker 1: sharp things. And I love knowing that. Now there are

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Speaker 1: a couple of ways that you could classify Jinny Green Teeth,

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Speaker 1: like what categories she goes in. I guess one would

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Speaker 1: be to say that she's part of this this class

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Speaker 1: of bogies, and Boggert's and Higgson's term fair and frightful things,

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Speaker 1: the sort of English or or UK tradition of frightful spirits, Yes,

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Speaker 1: and nursery bogies. Uh, that's certainly the term that folkloris

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Speaker 1: Carol Rose uses in her her encyclopedias of various magical creatures,

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Speaker 1: including giants, monsters, and dragons. I think the nursery bogie

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Speaker 1: categorization was applied by the folkloris Catherine Briggs, who does

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Speaker 1: a lot on English fairies and the nursery bogie. Bogie

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Speaker 1: specifically were bogies that were invoked to frighten children, often

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Speaker 1: with an instructive angle, and it seems like they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: usually have much in the way of real mythic roots

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Speaker 1: beyond their role, as you know, an educational and instructional entity.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand that they very much could

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Speaker 1: have roots, they could have inspirations because uh, water hags

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Speaker 1: like Jenny green Teeth, they're not unique to the British isles.

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Speaker 1: They're not unique to Jenny green Teeth especially, we will

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Speaker 1: discuss seems to be situated in like northern England, especially

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Speaker 1: Northwest England around Liverpool in Lancashire. Yeah, and we'll will

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Speaker 1: reference a few of her ken that live in the area,

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Speaker 1: as well as some of her more distant relatives that

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Speaker 1: live elsewhere. But it does make I kept wondering as

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Speaker 1: I was looking at these different examples, some of which

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Speaker 1: that were very much just a folklore nursery bogie and

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Speaker 1: others that had more of a mythic air about them.

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Speaker 1: You wonder, like, to what extent is a particular nursery

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Speaker 1: bogie a stripped down version of some older, deeper mythological creature.

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Speaker 1: Or is it something entirely new or mostly new? I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's probably a a little bit of both.

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Speaker 1: There's probably an ebb and flow uh that can be

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Speaker 1: found there. If the nursery bogie is a horrific schoolhouse

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Speaker 1: rock video, is it inspired by something horrific from the past,

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Speaker 1: that is having that is being somewhat tamed or bent

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Speaker 1: to the will of the warning instructive parent. Indeed, indeed,

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Speaker 1: so let's let's go back to Carol Rose. What what

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Speaker 1: does Rose have to say about old Jenny? Alright? So

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Speaker 1: Rose wrote that Jenny grin teeth is an evil quote

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Speaker 1: predator of humans and in particular awaits the unwary child

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Speaker 1: who may go too close to the water. So you

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Speaker 1: get too close and she'll come at you with her

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Speaker 1: long green things. Then she'll pull you into the depths,

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Speaker 1: and she can haunt virtually any pond that's covered in

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Speaker 1: green slime. And again, she's, of course a nursery bogi um,

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Speaker 1: a monster used to instruct children and enforce a wide

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Speaker 1: variety of rules. For example, another bogey that that exists

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Speaker 1: out there is the red legged scissor man. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: there's a delightful grotesque rhyme about the red legged says man.

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Speaker 1: And essentially, if you suck your thumb um, the red

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Speaker 1: legged scissor man will come and cut off your thumbs,

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Speaker 1: which is terrifying. But you see, it's very much just

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Speaker 1: a monster that's made up to scare children out of

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Speaker 1: doing something they're not supposed to do. But then with

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Speaker 1: Jenny Green teeth, the steaks are much higher. This isn't

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Speaker 1: about prevention preventing uh, you know, thumb sucking. This is

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Speaker 1: about preventing a child from wandering too close to the water,

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Speaker 1: falling in and drowning. Now, as we go through the episode,

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Speaker 1: I think we will steadily learn more and more about

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Speaker 1: exactly what that water threat is. Or sometimes Jenny is

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Speaker 1: deployed in ways that have nothing to do with water,

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Speaker 1: though clearly her home is in the water. She she

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Speaker 1: is a water faery, a water hag. Yeah. I can't

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Speaker 1: help but think of what is it Meg muckle Bones

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Speaker 1: from the Riddley Scott a filmed legend Exactly. I think

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Speaker 1: Meg muchacle Bones is directly inspired by Jenny. She she's

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Speaker 1: got to be Yeah, just the grotesque hag like monstrosity,

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Speaker 1: this troll like creature of this loathsome entity that rises

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Speaker 1: up out of the swampy muck. Now I want to

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Speaker 1: continue with what Higson wrote which was published in in

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Speaker 1: that Notes and Queries in eighteen seventy, where he's talking

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Speaker 1: about the role of Jenny Green Teeth in in English folklore.

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Speaker 1: Picking up where my first quote left off, he says

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Speaker 1: that some of the pits in the locality, and this

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Speaker 1: is generally gonna be talking about Northwest England, in the

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Speaker 1: locality were likely patronized by a Jenny Green Teeth. And

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Speaker 1: in my Gorton Historical Recorder, published in eighteen fifty two,

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Speaker 1: there are briefly noticed a dozen places in the township

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Speaker 1: once supposed to be haunted with Boggarts and fair and

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Speaker 1: in addition there were nut NaN's clap cans, Wills with

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Speaker 1: the whisp, oh yeah and Will of the whisps, Buddy

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Speaker 1: Jack with the lantern lantern or Lanthorne it seems to

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Speaker 1: be spelled and peg with the iron teeth. And lastly,

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Speaker 1: which is more to the point, he says quote, to

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Speaker 1: restrain their children from venturing too near the numerous pits

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Speaker 1: and pools which were to be found in every fold

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Speaker 1: and field. A demonus or guardian was stated to crouch

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Speaker 1: at the bottom. She was known as Jenny Green Teeth,

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Speaker 1: and was reported to prey upon children who ventured too

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Speaker 1: near her domain. Sometimes the water demonus was termed grind Low.

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Speaker 1: This incarnation, of course, might be more familiar to fans

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Speaker 1: of Harry Potter. Oh do they invoke Grendil or the

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Speaker 1: grindy Low as I've seen it written? Yeah, Rowling mentions

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Speaker 1: grindy Lows. I don't really remember exactly how I think

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Speaker 1: they are water dwelling monsters, but that's all I recall.

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Speaker 1: I like to maybe think that the grind Low is

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Speaker 1: the species and Jenny as the individual. Oh I like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jenny is one particular grindy Low. Though, as many authors

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Speaker 1: point out, if there's just one Jenny, she really gets around, right,

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Speaker 1: because she's in every stagnant pool and marl pit filled

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Speaker 1: in with water, and every dangerous pit of any kind

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Speaker 1: in Northwest England. Well, I mean, on one hand, it

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Speaker 1: makes sense that if you've just about any loathsome pool

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Speaker 1: in in England, if you've go back far enough in time,

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Speaker 1: you'll probably encounter some sort of horrific tragedy. One thing

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Speaker 1: I like about Jenny green Teeth is that, for some

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Speaker 1: reason her name actually sounds scary to me, whereas many

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Speaker 1: of these Boggers and fair End and stuff, they their

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Speaker 1: names are funny. Unfortunately something has been lost over time. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and so you get like Boum Rapid and the Grizzlehurst

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Speaker 1: Boggert and cleg Hoboggert and stuff. Well, it's it's it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: You have to wonder were they given fun names intentionally

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Speaker 1: or was the or was the the fun name terrifying

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Speaker 1: within contexts? For instance, take Pennywise the clown. It's a

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Speaker 1: pretty sinister sounding name if you have decades of familiarity

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Speaker 1: with Stephen King's it. But was the name initially sinister

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Speaker 1: or was it initially just a ridiculous sounding clown name.

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Speaker 1: That's a very good point. You know. This will actually

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Speaker 1: go with something that we're going to talk about in

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Speaker 1: a minute. There's a paper I read by a folklorist

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Speaker 1: and sort of like folk song researcher named Annie Gilchrist.

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Speaker 1: Two chronicles these horrific children's songs of like early twentieth

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Speaker 1: century England, and they're all about like murder and cannibalism

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Speaker 1: and infanticide and family members eating each other and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. But they're set to these like happy little

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Speaker 1: nursery rhyme tunes. I guess that makes them more creepy,

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Speaker 1: more creepy, but also more memorable. I guess maybe it

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Speaker 1: helps in in relaying the content to young minds. To

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Speaker 1: explore Jenny a little bit more. Through Higson's letter, I

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Speaker 1: want to read another passage he writes quote. A clerical

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Speaker 1: friend whose juvenile years were spent in the vicinity of Stockport, Cheshire,

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Speaker 1: states that he remembers being threatened more than once with

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Speaker 1: Jenny Green Teeth, but in that case, probably as there

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Speaker 1: was no pond near the house, she was said to

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Speaker 1: perch in the tops of the trees at least after nightfall,

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Speaker 1: his young imagination having been wrought up to the proper pitch,

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Speaker 1: he was led into the garden and bade to listen

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Speaker 1: to the site of the night wind through the branches,

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Speaker 1: and then told it was the moaning of Jenny Green Teeth.

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Speaker 1: It may be just then disturbed with the nightmare. Another

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Speaker 1: clergyman born in Walton Ladale informs me that he remembers

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Speaker 1: an old pit, since filled up but then existing in

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Speaker 1: his native village and in which it was affirmed, lived

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Speaker 1: Jenny green Teeth, ever on the watch, and therefore woe

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Speaker 1: betided the urchin who ventured too near her domain. Jenny

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Speaker 1: was also known in Manchester. Some fifty years ago, says

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Speaker 1: an antiquarian friend, shooters Brook passes in a culvert under

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Speaker 1: the aqueduct which carries the Manchester and Ashton under Lynn

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Speaker 1: Canal over Shore Street near the London road Station. At

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Speaker 1: that period, there existed an opening or break left in

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Speaker 1: the culvert, forming a dangerous spot for children to play beside,

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Speaker 1: and yet they often selected it. Their mothers tried to

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Speaker 1: destroy the fascination by stating that Jenny Green Teeth laid

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Speaker 1: in wait at the bottom in order to nab children

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Speaker 1: playing there, and highlights something that I think will come

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Speaker 1: back to throughout the episode, which is that it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that children are drawn specifically, it is said, to these

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Speaker 1: dangerous locations, the break in the culvert, the dangerous pond

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Speaker 1: or pit. It's like the children specifically want to go

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Speaker 1: right to where the danger to their lives is the highest,

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Speaker 1: and they have to be warned with another kind of

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Speaker 1: danger to keep them away. Oh yeah, I I. I

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Speaker 1: see this this all the time with with my son

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Speaker 1: and his various friends, when we take them out for

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Speaker 1: walks and in the nature trails and whatnot. If there's

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Speaker 1: some sort of dangerous little area where it's like a

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Speaker 1: sheer drop off or something like, that's what they're drawn to,

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Speaker 1: and then you have to you have to urge them

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Speaker 1: away and say, like, look, there's a zero entry like, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, creek area up ahead, Let's go playing that,

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Speaker 1: not this, uh, this scary little bog that you've picked

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Speaker 1: out here for yourself. Uh. And indeed, some of the

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Speaker 1: places that that I've seen them drawn to just in

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Speaker 1: the past few weeks are are very very much to

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Speaker 1: the sort of place that a Jenny Green Teeth might

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Speaker 1: be said to reside in. So, Robert, I have a question.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever invoked a fictional monster or supernatural threat

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Speaker 1: in order to scare your child away from a real threat? No?

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Speaker 1: I haven't um that. That being said, you know some

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Speaker 1: people are against utilizing, say Santa Claus of the Tooth Fairy.

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Speaker 1: We have Santa Claus, we have the Tooth Fairy, we

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Speaker 1: have the Switch which for Halloween. But beyond these beneficial entities,

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Speaker 1: we have not invoked any other supernatural entities, uh in

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Speaker 1: our daily practice. I guess we just try and be

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Speaker 1: honest about what dangers are. But you know, I can

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Speaker 1: understand the temptation here because with Jenny Green teeth, you

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Speaker 1: that the parent is invoking or creating an imagine a monster,

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Speaker 1: a fantastic lethal monster, instead of having like a frank

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Speaker 1: discussion about the more mundane but equally like traumatic dangers

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Speaker 1: that are involved. And sometimes you want to protect them

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Speaker 1: from the truth of of real danger, like setting down

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Speaker 1: and explaining the dangers of drowning to a child like

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Speaker 1: that can be intimidating. You want to shield them from drowning,

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Speaker 1: but you there's also this instinct to shield them from

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Speaker 1: knowledge of that world. And so I can understand the

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Speaker 1: temptation to utilize the fantastic to create something horrific but

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Speaker 1: fictional as a like almost a gentler way of teaching

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Speaker 1: them the same lesson, uh, which is weird because that

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Speaker 1: can be they can I guess be even more harmful

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Speaker 1: in some respects uh, because you're creating this nightmare creature

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Speaker 1: to live in their heads. But I can see where

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Speaker 1: you could reach that point, um with only the best intentions.

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Speaker 1: That's a really interesting point, and we will talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about the real dangers of water and

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Speaker 1: drowning later in the psychology of of how this works out.

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Speaker 1: But um, yeah, is it possible that the monster is

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Speaker 1: actually a defanged version of the threat in a way,

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Speaker 1: not a more threatening version of the threat, but putting

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Speaker 1: the threat into a form that feels more comfortable and

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Speaker 1: less depressing. Yes, I think so. I think there's a

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Speaker 1: strong case to be made for that. Now, Robert, if

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Speaker 1: you are right with it, I'd like to look at

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Speaker 1: a couple of older a couple more older books and

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Speaker 1: papers that mentioned Jenny Green Teeth. One is a book

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Speaker 1: by Percy B. Green called A History of Nursey Rhymes.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, Percy B. Green? Okay, Yeah, that guy didn't

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Speaker 1: need a pseudonym, or maybe that is the pseudonym anyway,

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Speaker 1: So I want to quote him later, also because he

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Speaker 1: mentions another fascinating story about a water monster. But Green

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Speaker 1: writes in a middle in the middle of a section

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Speaker 1: about water spirits, he writes, in England, to the North Country,

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Speaker 1: people speak of a river sprite as Jenny Green Teeth,

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Speaker 1: and the children dread to the Green slimy covered rocks

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Speaker 1: on the streams bank or on the brink of a

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Speaker 1: black pool. Wait, I should I want to throw in

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Speaker 1: this is key too, right, because we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: slime covered rocks themselves, like that's a key danger that

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Speaker 1: kid's gonna slip and fall. Um. Yeah, sorry, I had

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Speaker 1: I had to jump in on that. No, that's a

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Speaker 1: very good point. I mean, there's actually specific information about

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Speaker 1: real dangers being conveyed in the superstition though. So it's

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Speaker 1: like you see the green covered rocks, that that might

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Speaker 1: be a sign that the rock is going to be

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Speaker 1: something you could slip off of, and the child might

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Speaker 1: not know that naturally, but the child sees it and says, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's green on the rocks Jenny green Teeth is about huh. So,

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Speaker 1: you know that's that feels a lot more calibrated, where

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Speaker 1: the example we heard earlier about Jenny Green Teeth living

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Speaker 1: in the trees that felt like the tail had become unhinged,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, Well, that's part of the problem with

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Speaker 1: creating superstitions and myths about monsters like this is that

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to do it for a specific purpose,

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Speaker 1: like to warn children, myths go wild, and it's always

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Speaker 1: become untamed. They roam loose, and they become their own thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, as does a logical fear itself. I mean,

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Speaker 1: even as adults, we can probably think of things in

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Speaker 1: our lives where they're not really you know, they're not monsters,

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Speaker 1: but they're at least a little illogical. And if you

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Speaker 1: don't watch them, if you don't curb them, then yeah,

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Speaker 1: they can start living in the trees. They go ferrell.

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Speaker 1: But Green writes that a warning of a Lancashire mother

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Speaker 1: to her child is quote Jenny Green, teeth will have

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Speaker 1: the goist onto river banks. Now, I think I already

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Speaker 1: mentioned the the author An E. G. Gilchrist, who has

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Speaker 1: done some work chronicling folk songs discovered in the wild,

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Speaker 1: and she wrote a paper for the Journal of the

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Speaker 1: Folk Song Society in nineteen nineteen that is called Note

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Speaker 1: on the Lady Dressed in Green and Other Fragments of

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Speaker 1: tragic ballads and folk Tales Preserved among Children. So this

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Speaker 1: is about folk songs sung by children in early twentie

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Speaker 1: cent England. And these songs are just messed up. They

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Speaker 1: are I think I mentioned earlier. They're they're all about murder, cannibalism,

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Speaker 1: hiding dead bodies in your house. It is fascinating that

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Speaker 1: we often think that children need to be protected from horror,

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Speaker 1: Like I can understand that impulse, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: This just seems to me like an indication that children

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Speaker 1: naturally gravitate to themes of murder and death and gore. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they can be rather severe in their invocation of

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Speaker 1: these ideas. Now, the main song talks about in this

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Speaker 1: paper is uh is one called the Lady Dressed in Green,

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Speaker 1: which gil Christ heard sung by a girl named Margaret

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Speaker 1: in a Southport orphanage, and Margaret apparently brought it from

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Speaker 1: a Lancashire workhouse. And gil Chris goes on to discuss

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Speaker 1: how versus of the in verses of this song, the

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Speaker 1: Lady Dressed in Green is holding a baby and then

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Speaker 1: she murders her baby with a pen knife, and then

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Speaker 1: three bobbies come and haul her off to prison. And

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Speaker 1: so gil Christ is talking about the significance of the

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Speaker 1: song and it's parallel us to other similar children's rhymes, songs,

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Speaker 1: murder ballads and so forth. And one of the interesting

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Speaker 1: things is the significance of the color green, and this

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Speaker 1: leads her to talk about the color green in its

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Speaker 1: relation to curses and bogies and evil fairies and spirits.

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Speaker 1: We will talk more about the significance of the color

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Speaker 1: green later, but as for Jenny Green Teeth, Gilchrist writes

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Speaker 1: quote of still more sinister import is the color In

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Speaker 1: the case of Jenny Green Teeth, the evil water spirit

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Speaker 1: appearing is the green scum on stagnant water what claws

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Speaker 1: you in, as country children say, if you go too

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Speaker 1: near or in the obscure and horrible English folk tale

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Speaker 1: of the green Lady, who appears to be a sort

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Speaker 1: of lamia or vampire, living on or delighting in blood,

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Speaker 1: and perhaps deriving her name and Hugh from a classic

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Speaker 1: serpent ancestry. But Jenny Green Teeth and perhaps green Lady

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Speaker 1: also is allied with the German water nicks and green hats,

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Speaker 1: the hat appearing to be a tuft of beautiful vegetation

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Speaker 1: growing in the water, who dragged down the unwary to

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Speaker 1: the depths. They're horrible fate being visible in a fountain

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Speaker 1: of blood which spouts up through the surface of the water.

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Speaker 1: This is interesting the the the mention of of serpents,

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Speaker 1: because as I was looking through Carol Rose and looking

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Speaker 1: at various uh aquatic uh you know, fresh water, especially monsters.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of serpents in various beliefs, weird

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Speaker 1: serpents in uh Native American beliefs as well. And this

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Speaker 1: makes a certain amount of sense, right, because you will

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Speaker 1: encounter snakes around the water sometimes. Yeah, and this would

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Speaker 1: be a very old fear and human culture, but also

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Speaker 1: even predating some of that, you know, just sort of

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Speaker 1: an ingrained thing to be afraid of. Yeah, we're all

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Speaker 1: the cat with the cucumber behind us. Yes, Now, I

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Speaker 1: can't move on without mentioning what Gilchrist writes about this

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Speaker 1: other story, the green Lady story, that may have its

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Speaker 1: origins in some kind of serpent ancestry. She writes that

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Speaker 1: she's never found a version of the green Lady folktale

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Speaker 1: in print, but there's there's a version she heard from

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Speaker 1: a person named Ethel Kidson, and this is how it goes.

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Speaker 1: A little girl took service with the Green Lady. The

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Speaker 1: next morning, after preparing breakfast for her, she called up

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Speaker 1: the stair, green Lady, Green Lady, come down to your breakfast.

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Speaker 1: But the Green Lady did not come down. The formula

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Speaker 1: was repeated for dinner and supper, but still she did

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Speaker 1: not appear. At last, the little girl went upstairs to

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Speaker 1: the chamber door, and, urged by curiosity, looked through the

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Speaker 1: keyhole and saw the green lady dancing in a basin

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Speaker 1: of blood. Now, this paper is actually worth a look

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Speaker 1: if you want to just go look it up to

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Speaker 1: see the absolutely depraved folk songs that children sing. Oh, yes,

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Speaker 1: one of these that you highlighted here, My mama did

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Speaker 1: kill me? Uh, And it has the sheet music with it.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna attempt to sing just a little of it,

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Speaker 1: with fair warning I'm not very good at reading sheet music.

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Speaker 1: But it goes something like this, my mama did kill

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Speaker 1: me and put me in a pie. My dad da

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Speaker 1: did eat me and say it was I. And then

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Speaker 1: it goes on my brother and sister did pick my

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Speaker 1: bones and bury them under cold marble stones, and bury

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Speaker 1: them under cold marble stones. We we were emailing with

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Speaker 1: our producer Alex about this, and Alex was trying to

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Speaker 1: make sense of the line my Dada did eat me

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Speaker 1: and say it was I. Now, one way of reading

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Speaker 1: that could be like, I don't know the dada knows

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Speaker 1: what the child's flesh tastes like like, oh, that's that's him,

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00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: that's the one I'm eating, or maybe the dad da

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00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 1: is saying, no, you're eating yourself. It's you that's doing

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Speaker 1: the eating of you. I tend to favor the earlier interpretation,

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Speaker 1: but either way you slice it, it's pretty unsettling. One

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Speaker 1: more paper I came across that mentioned Jenny green Teeth

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Speaker 1: I thought had a really kind of sad but fascinating

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Speaker 1: story about something that happened in the sixteen century. So

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Speaker 1: this is a paper by Terence R. Murphy called Woeful

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Speaker 1: Child of Parents, Rage, Suicide of Children and Adolescence in

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Speaker 1: Early Modern England fifteen o seven to seventeen ten in

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Speaker 1: the sixteenth Century Journal. And so the author writes that

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Speaker 1: there was a case of an adolescent suicide in Cambridgeshire

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Speaker 1: in fifteen sixty five, where a quote twelve year old

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Speaker 1: Agnes Adam went horseback riding with her girlfriend and accidentally

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Speaker 1: got her clothes dirty. She came toward home, but fearing

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Speaker 1: that her father would punish her, she rushed to a

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Speaker 1: pond in her father's clothes and drowned herself. And then

424
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: there's a footnote saying, quote the coroner's jury swore that

425
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: Agnes adams motives were timur parentium correct shetionis and met

426
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: us castigatitionis. The jury could or would not recognize her

427
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: hostility toward her parents. How when and where she killed

428
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: herself suggested that she intended to become in death a

429
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: life demanding water spirit. The motive was childish and silly.

430
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: This spirit was a nursery bogey, which adults customarily and

431
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: cynically used to intimidate children into behaving themselves properly. Little

432
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 1: children like Agnes believed in nursery bogies, but wiser adults

433
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,719
Speaker 1: did not. This is one instance where adult duplicity and

434
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: terrorization of children backfired when a child believed her elders

435
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,719
Speaker 1: lies enough to act on them in order to get revenge. Well,

436
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: there we go. We've reached a like pique bleakness for

437
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: this episode. That's a sad story, but it does illustrate

438
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: something interesting about how, you know, we've been talking about

439
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: using the idea of a specter or a water hag

440
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: or a monster to warn children away from real danger.

441
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: But this tends to show that, if, if this is

442
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: really what happened in this case, a child's belief in

443
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: the existence of this kind of creature could actually cause

444
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: her to call it to kill herself, to cause harm

445
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: to herself. Yeah, it's it's it's powerful magic to start

446
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: messing with the magic of belief. All right, I think

447
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: we should a quick break and when we come back

448
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: we will talk about other specters of the water than

449
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: all right, we're back, Robert, tell me about Nelly Long Arms.

450
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, so these are We're gonna run through

451
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: a few different versions of of old Jenny Green Teeth

452
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 1: here and these are all from again, that that excellent

453
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: book by Carol Rose. Uh. If you look up Carol

454
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 1: Rose and Monsters or Fairies, you'll find her Encyclopedia's um

455
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: they're all still in print and I always highly recommend them.

456
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: Lots of wonderful illustrations. But yeah, we have Nelly Long Arms,

457
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: and she's essentially just Jenny Green Teeth with the fangs

458
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: and the green skin, but with added elongated arms and

459
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: spidery fingers. And you'll find her in the folklore of Derbyshire, Cheshire, Lancashire,

460
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,479
Speaker 1: Shropshire and Yorkshire. And there's also a nearly identical long

461
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: armed monster named We've discussed this in already the Grindy

462
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,479
Speaker 1: Low and it's tied more spec typically New Yorkshire. And

463
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: then there's peg Powler. This is another creature of the

464
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: same sword. And this one is just straight up identical

465
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: to Jenny green Teeth. But she said to live specifically

466
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: in the River Tys and belongs to the folklore of

467
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: the border region between Yorkshire and Durham. Now. Carol Rose

468
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: also mentions a male incarnation of the same entity named

469
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: Cutty Dyer. This is from the folklore of Ashburton in Somerset, England,

470
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: and he said to haunt the bridge over the river. Yo,

471
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: I believe it is hy Yo, yeah, I guess i'll

472
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: e o. And he was in a normal he described

473
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: as an enormous man with eyes like saucers, and he'd

474
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: emerge behind you and either pull you into the river

475
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: or slit your throat and drink your blood. And she

476
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: she shares the following little ditty that's attributed to an

477
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: old I believe blind Ashburton resident in nineteen seventy two,

478
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: remembering this is you know, from from his childhood. It goes,

479
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: don't he go down the river's eye? Cut he die?

480
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: Or do a bide, cut you die, or ain't no

481
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: good cuttie die, or drink your blood. This one didn't

482
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: come with sheet music, so I don't know if if

483
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 1: it had a tune to it, or is just like

484
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: something you might chant. I kind of like the idea

485
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: of it just being a dirge. Now. Water monsters have

486
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: just got to be one of the best kind of monsters, right,

487
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: because they can play on several different fears at once. Right,

488
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: they can be near you without you knowing it because

489
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: they're underneath the surface and maybe the water is dark

490
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: or murky and you can't see down there. But they

491
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: also play on fears of drowning. Once they get you

492
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: down into their world, they've got all the power. You're

493
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 1: not going to be able to defend yourself much underwater.

494
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of great water monsters around the world,

495
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: far too many for us to talk about today. Right.

496
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: For example, we've talked about the Japanese monster, the Kappa before.

497
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: That's right, the Japanese spirit. It kind of looks like

498
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: a ninja turtle, but with a little pool of water

499
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: and its skull, and if you get it to bow

500
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: to you and the water or spills out and it

501
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: loses its vital essence. Yeah. So so they're all over

502
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: the world. But since we're talking about Jenny Green Teeth today,

503
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: I think we can specifically focus on like water monsters

504
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: of the British Isles. Right, So, another one I know

505
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: about that Katherine Briggs wrote about is the idea of

506
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: the kelpie. Katherine Briggs wrote that Scotland has a kelpie

507
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: in every lonely lock. Yeah, the kelpy is very interesting.

508
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: This is this is one um. I don't know if

509
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: I read about it before Dungeons and Dragons or if

510
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: I was initially introduced to it in Dungeons and Dragons,

511
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: but it's I think long been um, an inmate of

512
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: the monster manual. But it's a traditional Scottish monster said

513
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: to haunt the shores of locks forwards and fairy points.

514
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: And it seems to be more robust than a mirror

515
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: nursery bogeye, or or at least it evolved beyond that point.

516
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: Maybe it ended up influencing some of these other entities

517
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: we've been discussing, but it does have a far more

518
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: robust air of legend about it. It can appear as

519
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: a shaggy old man, a handsome young man, or, most famously,

520
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: a beautiful black or gray horse. WHOA, that's a departure. Yeah. Never,

521
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful woman though, which it seems unnecessary for

522
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: to take that form, because the horse form was sufficient

523
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: to attract women, young men, and children alike. Everybody loves

524
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: a gorgeous horse. Do they do you when you just

525
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: see a horse? Do you walk up to it? Yeah?

526
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: I mean, especially back in the day, like a horse

527
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: like this, it was value. I love. Also the mythic

528
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: dimension of it. You know, there's this kind of idea

529
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: that maybe more tender individuals they want to go and

530
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: meet the animal, and maybe harsher individuals they just see

531
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: maybe the monetary value or the raw power of the thing,

532
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: I guess. So, oh yeah, the monetary value is I

533
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: guess like seeing a horse without an owner or a

534
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: parent would be what kind of seeing like a free

535
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: car somewhere? Yeah? Yeah, I mean horse thieves were everywhere, right,

536
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: So there's kind of this idea that an unattended horse

537
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 1: is also you know, it's something that maybe it belongs

538
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: to somebody and maybe you're just gonna try and steal it.

539
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: But the idea here is that the creature, the kelpie

540
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: was it was a portent of drowning, an aquatic doom.

541
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: But if you could force a bridle over it, you

542
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: could harness the power of the kelpie and ride it.

543
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: And there are various tales of like individuals who successfully

544
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: rode the kelpie and and what one might do with

545
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: the harness power of the kelpie that sort of thing, Well,

546
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: what would you do? Um, you would basically just just

547
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: run them up for a little bit. There are also

548
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: some tales of like the kelpie powering water wheels at mills.

549
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: So there's this interesting idea of like the kelpie being this, uh,

550
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: the embodiment of just the raw power and danger of water. Yeah,

551
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: that's really interesting. It's kind of like a horse, you know,

552
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: something that may be tamed and used if done so respectfully,

553
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: but that if if if you step out of line

554
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: or you don't know what you're doing, you can easily

555
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: be killed by it. Yeah. And of course a brook

556
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: can gallop the same way a horse can. Uh. Yeah.

557
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: So we see some more dualities like that in other

558
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: water creatures. Like one that comes to mind I think

559
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: is is it would it be the marrow or the

560
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: mirrow marrow of Ireland yes, there there's some versions of

561
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: this that are more purely monstrous, and other versions that

562
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: appear to be less less dangerous, less monstrous. Yeah, like

563
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: is described by Carol Rose. He gives a pretty friendly

564
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: account of them, that they're peaceful and they generally get

565
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: along with humans. They have a little red cap that

566
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: allows them to shape shift and walk on land and uh,

567
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: and they sometimes breed with humans as well. But from

568
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: that Percy B. Green book I mentioned earlier. Now, who

569
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: knows this is from the eighteen hundred, so maybe Green's

570
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: folklore work is is not super rigorous. But Green has

571
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: a much darker vision of the mirrow. He writes, quote

572
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,239
Speaker 1: the Irish fisherman's belief in the soul's cages and the

573
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: mirror or man of the sea was once held in

574
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: general esteem by the men who earned a livelihood on

575
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: the shores of the Atlantic. This mirrow or spirit of

576
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: the utters, sometimes took upon himself a half human form,

577
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: and many a sailor on the rocky coast of Western

578
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: Ireland has told the tale of how he saw the

579
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: mirrow basking in the sun watching a storm driven ship.

580
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: His form is described as that of a half man,

581
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 1: half fish, a thing with green hair, long green teeth,

582
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: legs with scales on them, short arms like fins of

583
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: fish's tail, and a huge red nose. He wore no

584
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: clothes and had a cocked hat like a sugar loaf,

585
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: which was carried under the arm. Never did be put

586
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: on the head unless for the purpose of diving into

587
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: the sea. At such times, he caught all the souls

588
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: of those drowned at sea and put them in cages

589
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: made like lobster pots. Oh wow, I love how that

590
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: this invokes plenty of you know, much older ideas of

591
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: aquatic human ollids, and even like they an old man

592
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: of the sea, uh, you know, much like like Proteus himself,

593
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: but depresent is this weird twist of him essentially taking

594
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: a lobster pots to catch souls. Well, it strikes me

595
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: as a perhaps intentionally ironic or blasphemous in version of

596
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,240
Speaker 1: the Christian idea of ben fisher of men the marrow

597
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: as a fisher of men. Interesting. Now, I also have

598
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: to mention one of one of my favorite depictions of

599
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: of of a fresh water monster, and that's the illustration

600
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: What Came of Picking Jessamine by Henry justice Ford, an

601
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: illustration in Andrew Lang's The Gray Fairy book. Okay, this

602
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: is a great illustration, right and I'm going to make

603
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: sure to include this on the landing page for this episode.

604
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: It's stuff to Goo your Mind dot com so everybody

605
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: can check it out. But it's but the book itself,

606
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: The Gray Fairy. This is available as well on the web.

607
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: I think Project Gutenberg has it and you can you

608
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: can get the PDF and scroll through it and read

609
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: these various uh fairy tales from throughout Europe and uh

610
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: and and even beyond I believe, but they all have

611
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: these wonderful illustrations as well. But um, I'm gonna kind

612
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: of just roll through the story really quickly. It's an

613
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: illustration though from the Portuguese fairytale what came of picking flowers?

614
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna try and roll through it real quick

615
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: for everybody. Basically, a woman three daughters are lost in

616
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: the process of picking three different plants, a pink carnation

617
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: arose and then some Jessamine or Jasmine. Their brother, the

618
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: only survivor in the family, grows up, acquires some magical

619
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: items and decides to get his lost sisters back. But

620
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: as it turns out, the first sister was not dead,

621
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: but locked away in the magic castle, trapped in I

622
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: guess you can just say a magical marriage arrangement with

623
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: the King of the Birds. So he fixes that, and

624
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: then he becomes a friend of the King of the Birds. Wait,

625
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: so removes the King of the Bird's wife who is

626
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: his sister, but also becomes friends with the King of

627
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: the Birds. Well, I'm just gonna just just to simplify things,

628
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say he fixes their magical scenario because

629
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: the first two sisters here are are less important for

630
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: our purposes here. But then he goes off and heaches

631
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: searches for the second sister. He finds that she too

632
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: is trapped in a magical marriage to the King of

633
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: the Fish. And here it sounds like there's more of

634
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 1: a Lady Hawk scenario where husband's a fish half the time,

635
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: and it's it's a kind of annoying. So he manages

636
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 1: to fix this scenario as well and becomes a friend

637
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: of the King of the Fish. Is the brother Rutger

638
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: howerd I And when I was reading, I certainly pictured

639
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: him like that, like Rudgar Howard, but with more of

640
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: a fishy look to him. And then Finally, he sets

641
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: out for the third a sister, and find finds that

642
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 1: she was in fact captured by a monster. This monster

643
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: that we see in this illustration what came of picking Jessamine.

644
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: This troll like entity that grabbed her, came up out

645
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: of the water and pulled her in. But this monster

646
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: has been keeping her prisoner in his castle because she

647
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: refuses to marry him. So the brother sneaks in and

648
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: he talks to her about this, and he says, look,

649
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: here's what you need to do. Promise to marry the monster,

650
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: but only if he tells you how he can die.

651
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: Tell make sure that he tells you the secret of

652
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: his death, because like a lot of magical creatures, you know,

653
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: there's only one way, one specific way you can kill it.

654
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: That is a smart pre nup. Yeah, so I mean, yeah,

655
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: if you're a horrible monster. But anyway, this uh, the

656
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: monster here he just kind of laughs and says, oh, yeah,

657
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: I'll tell you because this information will be completely useless,

658
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: especially to you. And he tells her that there's an

659
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: iron casket at the bottom of the sea and it

660
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: contains a magical dove, and that dove's egg if dashed

661
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: against the monster's forehead will kill it. Okay, so um,

662
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: you know, he laugh has a good laugh at that.

663
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: And meanwhile the brother uh sneaks away and he goes

664
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: to the King of the fish and convinces the King

665
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: of the fish, who you know owes in one to

666
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: fetch the casket, which he does. Uh. They bring the

667
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: casket up, and then the bird flies out of the casket.

668
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: So he asked the King of the birds to grab

669
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: the dove and bring it back. So the King of

670
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: the Birds goes off, gets the dove, brings it back.

671
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 1: He ends up with that egg, and he rushes back

672
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: to where the monster is waiting impatiently for the go

673
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: ahead to marry the sister. And he's becoming, you know, impatient.

674
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna read the last little bit from

675
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: Andrew Lang's version of the story quote. At a sign

676
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: from her brother, she sat down and invited the old

677
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: monster to lay its head on her lap. He did

678
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,959
Speaker 1: so with delight, and her brother, standing behind her back,

679
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: passed her the egg unseen. She took it and dashed

680
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: it straight at the horrible head, and the monster started

681
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: and with a groan that people took for the rumblings

682
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: of an earthquake, he turned over and died. That's a

683
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: boss fight for the ages. Yeah, I love it. It's

684
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: it's one of those fairy tales. It's maybe a little

685
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: shaky in the early goings, but it totally delivers the end.

686
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: I like how the the alliance with the King of

687
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 1: the Birds and the King of the Fish comes through. Yeah. Yeah,

688
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: this is one I would have loved to have seen

689
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: Jim Hinson's storyteller bring the life because it's it's it's

690
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 1: a little bit perfect, because it's a little bit weird,

691
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: and it has a really hideous monster in it and

692
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: a kind of whimsical way of defeating it. That is

693
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: a great story. But I want to go back to

694
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: Jenny Green Teeth and discuss a little bit more about

695
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: what the Jinny Green Teeth lore means, like what it

696
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 1: tells us about culture, about our values, our psychology, and

697
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: so one of the things that's explored is the the

698
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: importance of the color green in the Jenny Green Teeth lore.

699
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: Anny Gilchrist, in her paper on The Lady Dressed in Green,

700
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: talks about this a good bit. She says that in

701
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: in England at the time, the color green is widely

702
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: believed to be a quote ill omened hue for a

703
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: garment because it symbolizes the loss of maidenhood or the

704
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: loss of a lover. U. And there's this saying apparently

705
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: that green is forsaken and yellows forsworn or green can

706
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 1: also symbolize being passed over for a younger bride quote,

707
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: as in the case of the green stockings or garters,

708
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: in which the elder unmarried sisters had to dance at

709
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: a younger sister's wedding. But she also writes that quote

710
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,959
Speaker 1: the unluckiness of green clothing must be a very old

711
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: belief and perhaps had reference originally to a fear of

712
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: incurring the hostility of the spirits of the woods by

713
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: borrowing their livery. So the idea there is that the fairies,

714
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: the fairies are not nice. I mean, this is a

715
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: sort of modern thing that we think fairies are. Oh,

716
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: fairies are sweet, they're fun. Traditionally, I think fairies are

717
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: much more nasty creatures. Oh yeah, the fairy folk are

718
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 1: are generally best thought of as uh, poorly understood magical

719
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: alien folk that kind of lived and live in the

720
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: folds of realities. Yeah, and and so if the fairies

721
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: dress in green, they can easily be made jealous to

722
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: see humans dressing in green. Apparently, uh, and so gil

723
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: Christ talks about how there's a book called Folklore of

724
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 1: the Northern Countries by a writer named Henderson, and Henderson writes,

725
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: quote green, ever an ominous color in the Lowlands of Scotland,

726
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 1: must on no account be worn there at a wedding.

727
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: The fairies whose chosen color it is is would resent

728
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: the insult and destroy the wearer. Henderson also claims that

729
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: mothers in the south of England sometimes forbid their daughters

730
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: from wearing green, and avoid even having green furniture in

731
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: their houses. And also there's a general belief in the

732
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: folk rhymes of the time that the color green is

733
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: a sign of hatred when given as a token from someone,

734
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: so like you would give someone a blue ribbon as

735
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: a sign of true love, but you'd give someone a

736
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: green ribbon as a sign of hatred. Gil Christ also

737
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: says that a tailor once told her that his workers

738
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 1: hated to see a green garment come into their come

739
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 1: into their shop for mending, since they believe that there's

740
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: this rotten curse of the color and it could fall

741
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: on them as well, for for for working on it.

742
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: And then she also says, of course that the color

743
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: green is associated with poison. So I think this is

744
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: interesting because I think of green as a very nice, RESTful,

745
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: pleasant color. In fact, I think green is my favorite color. Well,

746
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of of modern uh individual is

747
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: associated with green. Like, what's the greenest superhero? I guess

748
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: like green lantern, writer's green. There's another green Well, there's

749
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: green Goblin, but he's he's bad. What's the green hornet?

750
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: Green hornet? I don't know much about green hornet, and

751
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure you where's all that much green? Confession, I

752
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: don't know that much about superheroes. There's Peter Pan, kind

753
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: of a superhero. Well he you know, Pan embodies sort

754
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: of the spirits of wildness in the forest. He's sort

755
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: of wearing green because he is a fairy in a way.

756
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: Peter Pan is like Pan. You know Robin Hood as well. Yeah,

757
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 1: these green garments, I think are associated with the fact

758
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: that a person is sort of is of nature, is

759
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: of the fairy world, is untamed and uncivilized and not

760
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: not necessarily subject to say the Christian authorities. You know,

761
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: this would I think this would be a topic for

762
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: another day. But then you could you could also explore

763
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: the whole realm of the green man the green night

764
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: from our Thoritian legend. Well, yeah, I think that that

765
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: would be a great thing to explore. Whatever is going

766
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: on with the color green in Gilchrist time is is definitely,

767
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, not reflected in the

768
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: color psychology of late twentie and nearly twenty first century

769
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: scientific journals, and as far as I can tell, most

770
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: of this research appears to be on Americans, And I

771
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: can see how color psychology could be hugely influenced by culture,

772
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: of course, like it would really depend on like the

773
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: culture of the people you're testing. Yeah, I mean one

774
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: modern example of this, if I'm remembering the antidote, the

775
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: anecdotea correctly. Um. We've touched on before the importance of

776
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: red uh in Chinese culture uh, and I believe it

777
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: has to do with phone uh smartphone design uh. The

778
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: idea of something going from red to green being a

779
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 1: positive movement and say checking off a tab or something.

780
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: But I've my understanding is correct. For Chinese markets, you'll

781
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: often see an inversion of that, like to go to

782
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: the positive movement, cannot be away from red. It must

783
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 1: be towards red, because red is the most auspicious color. Yeah,

784
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: that's interesting, and so I think it's pretty clear that

785
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: color psychology is going to be heavily influenced by culture.

786
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: I doubt that there is just like a you know,

787
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: a universal color association thing across human beings that's part

788
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: of our biological brains or something. Oh yeah, Like I've

789
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: read before about interpretations of the color pink and about

790
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 1: how we we fell into this kind of you know,

791
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: grotesque cohole of just assuming that like pink is a

792
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: feminine color, whereas you see older traditions where pink was

793
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: very much a masculine color, and ultimately like what is

794
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: what is the color of fresh wounds on the battlefield?

795
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: You know? But pink and red, you know, I think

796
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: of the I believe pink is the color and Game

797
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: of Thrones attributed to the Bolton's. It's like red and

798
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: pink or their colors because they don't like playing human flesh.

799
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: Those creeps. Yeah they're no good. Well anyway, just whatever

800
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: all the caveats are and how this is influenced by

801
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: culture and everything. I was poking around in a few

802
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: studies about color psychology, and generally what it seemed to be.

803
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: What seemed to be the case to me is that

804
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: green is not usually viewed by the subjects of these

805
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: studies as something that's cursed or scary or or an

806
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: ill omen Blue and green are generally seen as more

807
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: psychologically relaxing, whereas red and yellow or more arousing and

808
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: more associated with anxiety. States Um and the authors of

809
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: one study described how green was described. The word green

810
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: was associated with the quality of being good, whereas like

811
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: the word yellow was associated with the quality of being bad,

812
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: and that blue and blue, green and green were colors

813
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: that cause subjects to feel more pleasure than colors like

814
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: yellow and yellow. Green. Here's another significant thing in the

815
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: Jinny green teeth folklore, and it is the significance of

816
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: a particular green plant. So I want to talk about

817
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: a paper called Lemna Minor and Jinny Green Teeth by

818
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: a botanist in English, hotanist named Roy Vickery, who has

819
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 1: apparently written a good deal about the folklore of plants.

820
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: And this was published in the journal Folklore in nine three.

821
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 1: And this was a great paper about Jenny Green Teeth

822
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: because he's picking up on the work of people like

823
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: Catherine Briggs and Vickery wants to give a fuller account

824
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: of Jenny Green Teeth and explore the relationship between Jenny

825
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: and this water plant known as lesser duck weed or

826
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: Lemna minor. Now LiMnO minor you've probably seen before. I

827
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: added a picture to our our outline here, Robert, so

828
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: you can take a look at it. But Lemno minor.

829
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: The duckweed is a is a green plant that floats

830
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: on the top of stagnant water and ponds and pools,

831
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: and it has very small leaves and can end up

832
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: looking like a flat matte of green on top of

833
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: the water. If it collects enough, it can make a

834
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: watery surface look just sort of like a flat pudding

835
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: green or something. It's like the hard phone cap a

836
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: top and old school cappuccino, except green. It totally is

837
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: so uh so. Vickory writes the stories of Jinny Green

838
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: Teeth are still told around the Liverpool area, and Liverpool

839
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: is of course in northwest England, near Lancashire, and he

840
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: writes quote usually she's considered to be a bogey who

841
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: inhabits quiet pools and drags venturesome children down into the depths.

842
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,760
Speaker 1: Sometimes she's considered to be the harmless water plant lesser duckweed,

843
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: and occasionally she can be found far away from any pool.

844
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: And in his eighteen thirty nine book of book The

845
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 1: Flora of Liverpool, author TV Hall notes that quote marl

846
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: pits abound on both sides of the Mercy, which is

847
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: a river going through that area, and are caused in

848
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 1: most instances by excavating clay for the purpose of making bricks.

849
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: Before these pits are a year old, they're filled with

850
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: aquatic plants, and specifically, of course, that plant is generally

851
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: lesser duckweed. This small green plant that floats on the

852
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 1: top of the water has these little root ten drils

853
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: that extend down into the water. It can look like

854
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: this matt from above, and Vickery writes quote. In summer,

855
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 1: such pools are frequently covered with a dense mat composed

856
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: of thousands of floating duckweed plants, so that their surfaces

857
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: appear solid. Lesser duckweed is one of the world's smallest

858
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: flowering plants, each plant measuring one point five to four

859
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: millimeters in diameter, with tiny and significant flowers and a

860
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: thread like root which may reach several centimeters in length. Obviously,

861
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: any child who attempted to walk across a pond covered

862
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: with duckweed would soon find himself in serious difficulty, and so,

863
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: of course this creates an interesting association that for some children. Apparently,

864
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: Jenny green Teeth was not a name for a magical monster,

865
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: but was literally the name for the duckweed itself, and

866
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: Vickery quotes the experience of a woman who recounted her

867
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: childhood memories about Jenny green Teeth to him in the

868
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: December of nineteen eighty. She starts by talking about the

869
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: area where she was brought up, and then she says, quote,

870
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: it was and still is largely a farming area, and

871
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: many of the fields contained pits, never ponds, which I

872
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: believe our old marl pits. Some of them have quite

873
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: steep sides. Jenny was well known to me and my contemporaries,

874
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: and was simply the green weed duck weed which covered

875
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: the surface of stagnant water. Children who strayed too close

876
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: to the edge of these pits would be warned to

877
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: watch out for Ginny green teeth. But it was the

878
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 1: weed itself which was believed to hold children under the water.

879
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: There was never any suggestion that there was a witch

880
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: of any kind there. And then another firstthand account of

881
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: the Vicary quotes quote, as a child in the countryside

882
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: of Cheshire, I heard the name Jinny green Teeth given

883
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: to the bright green water plant that lies on the

884
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: surface of stagnant ponds. The minute leaves are rather like

885
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: tiny teeth, and imagine that if one fell into the pond,

886
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: the green scum like plant would close over one's head.

887
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: Thus Jinny green Teeth had got you. Now that's an

888
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: interesting development there. There's still this predatory aspect being imputed

889
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: to Jenny Green Teeth. But she's not a hag, she's

890
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: not a witch. It's the plant that kills you. It

891
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: lures you into the water by making it look like

892
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 1: a solid surface, and then when you fall in, the

893
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: children imagined this plant would close over top of you

894
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: like a like a membrane, ceiling you under the water. Interesting,

895
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: so we kind of have a their meeting is halfway

896
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: between like actual realistic fear and an outlandish monstrous invention, right,

897
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: because there's no indication that duck weed will actually close

898
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: over you and prevent you from getting out of the water,

899
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: but it can be dangerous because it can make a

900
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: deep pit of water look like a solid surface that

901
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: you could just run straight into. So one question is

902
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: did this association between the Jenny green Teeth monster and

903
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: duck weed begin earlier late like, was Jenny a pre

904
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: existing bogey figure who later came to be identified with

905
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: duck weed or was she always a creature of the weed?

906
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: And I think the answer is not quite clear. Vicary

907
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: cites one scholar who wrote that the association had to

908
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: be recent, since he believed Jenny quote had descended from

909
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: the water spirits of Gothic mythology, whose great seductive beauty

910
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: was somewhat marred by their green teeth. And of course

911
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: this makes me think about a principle we've talked about

912
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: several times. From that book The Demon Lovers by Walter Stevens,

913
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah and Demon Lovers, Witchcraft, Sex, and Crisis of Belief,

914
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: he examines a number of different texts associated with which

915
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 1: with witchcraft, persecution, witchcraft, theory of the day, and one

916
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 1: of the texts that he looks at is The witch

917
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: or on the Illusions of Demons by Jeanne Francesco Pica

918
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: del Mirandola, who died in fifteen thirty three. Now Pico

919
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: was the nephew of the influential philosopher Giovanni Pico, and

920
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: Pico the younger here was wasn't was an influential thinker

921
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 1: of the day as well. He was an intellectual who

922
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: championed quote, the truths of Christianity against the crescendo of

923
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: skepticism that he felt era Statlian science fostered by encouraging

924
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: an empirical attitude towards the world. So Stevens wrote that

925
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: he quote brilliantly understood the way to fight skepticism was

926
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: with skepticism itself. So in other words, Pico was an

927
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: enemy of reason who used his intellectual gifts to champion

928
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: religious worldview over skepticism. His works enforced quite literally the

929
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 1: idea of a demon haunted world. But Pico in his work,

930
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: he describes a conversation between four individuals, including the inquisitor

931
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: Dicasti so which means judge who quote healthfully explains that

932
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: all the trial records of the inquisition revealed that the

933
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: devil can create a nearly perfect facsimile of the human body,

934
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 1: but never can get the feet to come out right.

935
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: Never the feet. God makes the feet come out in

936
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:56,879
Speaker 1: verse those at preposteros, so that people will know that

937
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 1: they are in the presence of a devil and not

938
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: be fool into thinking that he is human. Thus they

939
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: have no excuse for sinning. The corollary, which Decosts does

940
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: not state, is equally important. Imperfect feet are an infallible

941
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: way of recognizing demons, So we should not fear that

942
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 1: which is mistake ordinary humans for demons. So perhaps you

943
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: know Jenny works along some more lines or or plays

944
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: upon these trends and storytelling, right, well, I think the

945
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: idea here would not necessarily be Jenny herself, but would

946
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: be the creatures that this scholar is saying that Jenny

947
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: descends from. The idea of the green teeth comes to

948
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: us from the fact that there would be the seductive

949
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: water spirits who might they might be beautiful to lure

950
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: men into the water and drown them. But like like

951
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: the witches that Dicostys is talking about, here, would have

952
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: one feature that would be a tell that would let

953
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 1: you know that God has not allowed this demon to

954
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,919
Speaker 1: be a perfect mimicking of human beauty, and that tell

955
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 1: is that she's got disgusting green teeth well, and from

956
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: storytelling standpoint, it's always great to have that that little uh,

957
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: that that little detail at the last minute that clears

958
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 1: everyone in, Oh, it's not a woman, it's a demon, etcetera. Uh. Incidentally,

959
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 1: this also reminded me of a line from C. S.

960
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: Lewis is The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, where

961
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: it's written, quote, when you meet anything that is going

962
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: to be human and isn't yet or it used to

963
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 1: be human once and isn't now or ought to be human,

964
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: and isn't you keep your eyes on it and feel

965
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: for your hatchet. Sound advice, sound violent advice, sound advice. Alright,

966
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: on that note, we're gonna take one more break and

967
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: we'll come back. We're gonna discuss duckweed a little bit more.

968
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: We're gonna discuss Jenny Green Teeth a little bit more,

969
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,959
Speaker 1: and then we're going to close out. Alright, we're back.

970
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: So Vickery also in his paper sites other first hand

971
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 1: accounts that the association with duckweed also also goes the

972
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: other way. It's not just that Jinny green Teeth is

973
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: a nickname for the lesser duckweed. It's that lesser duckweed

974
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,720
Speaker 1: could be a sign that Jinny green Teeth is lurking

975
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: underneath uh. In an interview with a thirty four year

976
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: old woman in nineteen eighty UH, the interview goes quote,

977
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: I remember, as a very small child being told by

978
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: my mother to stay away from ponds, as Jenny green

979
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,439
Speaker 1: Teeth lived in them. However, I only recall Jenny living

980
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: in ponds which were covered in green weed, of a

981
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 1: type which has tiny leaves and covers the entire surface

982
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 1: of the pond. The theory was that Jinny enticed little

983
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: children into the ponds by making them look like grass

984
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: and safe to walk on. As soon as the child

985
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: stepped onto the green it of course parted, and the

986
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: child fell through into Jenny's clutches and was drowned. The

987
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: green weed then closed over, hiding all traces of the

988
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 1: child ever being there. This last point was the one

989
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 1: which really terrified me and kept me well away from

990
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 1: the ponds, and indeed my own children have also been

991
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: told about Jenny, although ponds aren't as numerous these days.

992
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 1: As far as I know, Jenny had no known form

993
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,360
Speaker 1: due to the fact that she never appeared above the

994
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: surface of the pond. So here the mat on the

995
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: surface of the pond is it's like a trick that

996
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 1: Jenny green Teeth uses. She is a hag, she is

997
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: a witch, but she uses the duck weed to lure

998
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 1: people to her. But then, also interestingly, Vickery mentions that

999
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: Jenny would sometimes get dislocated from her home turf like

1000
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,800
Speaker 1: children who grew up in Liverpool recount how they believe

1001
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 1: Jenny Green Teeth didn't live in ponds or pools, but

1002
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: in churchyard cemeteries, and that she would reach out and

1003
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 1: drag children into the graveyard and then into burial vaults.

1004
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: And then here's a really interesting one. In the nineteen forties,

1005
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,439
Speaker 1: parents in South Cheshire told children that Jenny would get

1006
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,760
Speaker 1: them if they ventured too close to the railroad tracks.

1007
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 1: So Jenny, Jenny green Teeth of the the industrial world.

1008
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: Now that is interesting because it seems like the idea

1009
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: that the train could run you over that seems far

1010
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: more overt, Like do you really need to invoke mythology,

1011
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: uh to make that that that threat reel. Yeah, that's

1012
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 1: a good question. I think we we can come back

1013
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 1: to that at the very end. But you know, one

1014
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,720
Speaker 1: of the things that we haven't really talked about yet,

1015
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 1: is the idea that, uh, that water's edge attack strategies

1016
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: are actually a pretty common ambush tactic of some predators. Right.

1017
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well, let's let's discuss a few of them here,

1018
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: because some of them are are really impressive. I think

1019
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: the most obvious one and maybe it's just most obvious

1020
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: to us because who watch enough nature documentaries uh and

1021
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: or terrible movies, but croco crocodilian species their attack strategies.

1022
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: So crocodilians, you know, everything from alligators and crocodiles to

1023
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: more you know, to lesser known creatures such as the cayman. Uh.

1024
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: Crocodilians are specialized in hunting both in the water and

1025
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: at the water's edge, so they're they're ambush predators. They

1026
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: wait for prey to come close, such as near the

1027
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: water to drink, and then they lash out with amazing speed. Uh.

1028
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 1: And there's a some fabulous nature documentary documentary footage out

1029
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: there of, for instance, nile crocodiles attacking wild the beast

1030
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: that are either drinking or preparing to cross bodies of

1031
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: water during migration. And much like the stories of Jenny

1032
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: Green Teeth, one of the things about a lot of

1033
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: crocodilian attack strategies is that they get you into their world,

1034
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: into the water world that they control. So like, if

1035
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: you're just out on land, you might easily be able

1036
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: to get away from a crocodile, But if the crocodile

1037
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: can get up close to you and can snatch you

1038
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 1: and get you into the water and do this thing

1039
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: that's often referred to as the death roll, this twisting

1040
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: ocean in the water that breaks your bones, that disorients you,

1041
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: and then you can allow it to drown you in

1042
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: the water before it feasts on you. Um. Yeah, this

1043
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: is a way that it gets you into its domain.

1044
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: It's like Jenny Green teeth pulling you down underneath the

1045
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: mat of the duck weed. I have to admit I

1046
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: was nearly pulled in and overtaken by just research related

1047
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: to crocodilians because I ran across um a paper titled

1048
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: on terrestrial Hunting by Crocodilians by Vladimir Dennets uh and

1049
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 1: and he points, uh, you know, out that purely terrestrial

1050
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: attacks even on humans are documented. So we're talking about

1051
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: attacks that take place not in the water, not at

1052
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: the water's edge, but outside of the water. Now, I

1053
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: don't mean like you know, you know, downtown New York

1054
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: City or anything. I'm talking about area near the water.

1055
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: Wouldn't rule anything out. But but but but they do occur. Uh.

1056
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 1: For and this is a particularly interesting You have the

1057
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: Cuban crocodile, which apparently is is the most terrestrial of

1058
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: of today's crocodilian species, in that it is more adapt

1059
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: at at moving about and uh and even hunting out

1060
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: of the water. And uh it's thought that the Cuban

1061
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: crocodiles ancestors may have used pack hunting behavior to take

1062
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 1: down giant ground sloths in a past giant ground sloths. Yeah.

1063
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 1: So it's just again just a tantalizing tidbit that maybe

1064
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: we can come back to in a later episode, the

1065
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: idea of pack hunting Cuban crocodile ancestors. So that would

1066
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 1: be the what the megatherium? Yeah, those things look like

1067
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: I wouldn't imagine anything would mess with them. Yeah, but

1068
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: if you have enough enough land crocs then who knows. Now.

1069
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: Another really impressive organism to talk about here is the

1070
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: archer fish. And this one also is kind of superstar

1071
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 1: of certain nature documentaries. So it's a family of fish

1072
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: that's evolved an amazing means of hunting prey. Uh. They

1073
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 1: shoot a highly specialized stream of water at insects on

1074
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: branches that are overhanging the water, and they spit this

1075
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: stream in such a way that high the higher velocity

1076
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: rear portion of the stream catches up to the lower

1077
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: velocity front portion of the stream right before it hits

1078
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: the target, jamming everything into a glob, just one solid

1079
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: glob of so it just really pops. It's like a

1080
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: it's a water bomb. Yeah, it's just a water bomb

1081
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: that hits them and then knocks the insect off into

1082
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 1: the water where it can get them. It uses exceptional

1083
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: eyesight to aim, as well as an ability to compensate

1084
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: for the refraction of light as it passes through the

1085
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 1: air water interface, which is impressive in and of itself right.

1086
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: And then it's also interesting to know that they're they're

1087
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: not born dead eyes. They actually have to practice and

1088
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 1: learn by observing other fish in their school. Interesting, so

1089
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: usually think of fish is learning very much. I know

1090
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: that these are from several different angles. These are fascinating creatures.

1091
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 1: They also use their water jet attack underwater and they've

1092
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: been observed jumping out of the water to catch prey

1093
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: as well. Now their their jet of water. It has

1094
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: a functional range of something like one to two meters

1095
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 1: or three ft three inches to six ft seven inches,

1096
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: but they can shoot it further than that, but it

1097
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 1: just doesn't have particularly good aim beyond that point. You know.

1098
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: Another example I would like to mention is the fact

1099
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: that we all know seals and sea lions can be

1100
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 1: fearsome predators themselves, right, but sometimes, of course they have

1101
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 1: to flee a more powerful flesh gobbler, which is the orca,

1102
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,440
Speaker 1: the killer whale. Goodness, and this is another superstar of

1103
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: nature documaries. Yes, Now, normally, if you're a seal sea lion,

1104
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: the best way to escape a killer whale is going

1105
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: to be what swim full speed for sure, get onto

1106
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: the beach or the rocks of the orca can't reach you.

1107
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 1: Right then you can just lay around all day and

1108
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 1: for the most part, nothing's gonna miss with you. Right,

1109
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the you know, the swim Charlie swim

1110
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: scene in Jaws. Right, the shark won't follow you onto

1111
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 1: the beach. There are no land sharks, but one of

1112
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: the strangest attack strategies I've ever seen in nature is

1113
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: the way that the orca has learned to defy this logic.

1114
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: Sometimes orcas will deliberately beach themselves to catch prey that

1115
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 1: has escaped onto land. For example, the orcas of the

1116
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 1: Valdes Peninsula on the Atlantic coast of Argentina are known

1117
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: for doing this. They will chase a seal or sea

1118
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: lion that's on the ground or in the in the

1119
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 1: shallow water like the surf or just up on the rocks,

1120
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: and the orca will rock it towards the water line,

1121
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 1: crash over it onto land at snag a seal, and

1122
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: then flop around and slide back into the water, dragging

1123
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 1: the seal with them. It's an impressive and just awesome

1124
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 1: sight and and it's like the ultimate nightmare. Right. There

1125
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 1: are so many just unbelievably powerful predators in the water

1126
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 1: that you always think like, well, at least I'm safe

1127
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: on land, and to be clear of the target here

1128
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 1: is the seal. So yes, humans are safe from beach

1129
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: based oorca attacks, right at least generally, I wouldn't rule

1130
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: out that it could never happen. Well, but I would

1131
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 1: not lose any sleepover, right not Yeah, nothing to go

1132
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: about your life worthy and about. But hey, let's go

1133
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 1: to another similar example, Robert, I want you to put

1134
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: yourself in a in a city in France. Imagine yourself

1135
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: wandering along the river Tarn in southern France, in the

1136
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: commune of Albi. Like a lot of urban areas, Albi

1137
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: has its resident population of pigeons. We all know about

1138
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 1: city pigeons, and they're probably out there getting fat off

1139
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 1: the bread that falls off the edges of cafe tables

1140
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. The winged rats of civilization. Now

1141
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: in the river dwells a mighty leviathan, the European catfish.

1142
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 1: The European catfish Silarus glanis is not not native to

1143
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 1: this river, but it is this invasive species that has

1144
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: taken over rivers in in all throughout Europe, and it

1145
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 1: is Europe's largest freshwater fish. I believe it's the third

1146
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 1: largest freshwater fish in the world. And these things get big.

1147
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 1: I've read like a meter to even a meter and

1148
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 1: a half long, and they are thick. Now, I want

1149
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: to remind everybody that the catfish is generally regarded as

1150
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: a bottom feeder. Um I imagine you you haven't grown

1151
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: up in Tennessee like I like I have. There were

1152
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 1: a lot of stories of the catfish that grow gigantic

1153
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: the like the depths near dams, for instance. Yeah, exactly.

1154
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 1: And there weren't a lot of stories about them being

1155
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess they were occasionally stories about them,

1156
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 1: you know, biting or whatnot. But for the most part, yeah,

1157
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: they're down there in the deep. They're not really concerned

1158
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: with the surface until you catch one on your reel

1159
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 1: and you bring it up. Right. So you're in Albe,

1160
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 1: You're going along the river and the river tarn, and

1161
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: you notice the pigeons are hanging out on a little

1162
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 1: gravel island to clean themselves by the water, and you,

1163
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: of course also see these invasive catfish, the monstrous catfish,

1164
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: floating around at the water's edge. And then suddenly what

1165
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: you see is that one of these leviathans lashes out

1166
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: of the shallows, partially beaches itself, clamps its jaws down

1167
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: on a pigeon's head or leg or wing, and then

1168
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 1: drags the bird down into the deeper part of the

1169
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: water to feast. There was a study in two thousand

1170
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: twelve and pl os one that that characterized this behavior

1171
01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 1: by Julian coukro Set, Stephanie Bullatrouw, fred drick as, Amar,

1172
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: Arthur Compeen, Matthew Guillaume, and Frederick Santool, and the authors

1173
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: characterized the catfish in this case as freshwater killer whales.

1174
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 1: Now they noticed something interesting. Only moving pigeons were attacked,

1175
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: and the catfish that hunted pigeons would tend to hold

1176
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 1: their you know those whiskers catfish have on their faces,

1177
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 1: the barbels, they would tend to hold those erect while

1178
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 1: they were hunting. And this led the authors to conclude

1179
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 1: that the catfish were probably hunting by sensing vibrations in

1180
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 1: the water. But fascinating question, how did this hunting strategy

1181
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 1: come about? How did the how did the catfish start

1182
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 1: going from just you know, normal aquatic feeding behaviors to saying, yeah,

1183
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 1: I'll jump out of the water into the air onto

1184
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 1: the land that would probably kill me, grab a pigeon

1185
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 1: and drag it in. How did it decide to become

1186
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 1: Jenny Green teeth. I'm guessing it probably started off as

1187
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 1: a like a crime of opportunity, right, yeah, But it's

1188
01:06:57,800 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: always I mean, it's just hard to imagine, Like how

1189
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: all behaviors like that originate? What how did it start happening? Well,

1190
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: it makes me think of our old friends, the squirrels,

1191
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: the scugs, and uh, their their their predatory side. And

1192
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 1: what point does a creature that is not that is

1193
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 1: clearly not evolved for such behavior begin, you know, dipping

1194
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 1: its little toes into that, right. Yeah, but then again

1195
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: when you think about it, I mean, it is a

1196
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 1: great opportunity, right because the water's edge is sort of

1197
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 1: a perfect ambush. Point is the crocodilians have caught onto

1198
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: the attacker can get so close to the prey while

1199
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 1: remaining hidden, just like Jenny lurking under the duck weed.

1200
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 1: And and this emphasizes that there are actually multiple reasons

1201
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 1: that water's edge fears are not just you know, psychologically salient,

1202
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:47,920
Speaker 1: but they're entirely justified in many ways, especially when you're

1203
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: talking about children. Yeah, this this really brings us back

1204
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 1: to what we talked about at the very beginning, the

1205
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 1: the idea that there is this, this real and perhaps

1206
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, very honest reason for for crafting these men

1207
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 1: so or at least embracing these these folkloric beliefs and

1208
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: then passing them onto children. Uh, you know, and I

1209
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 1: definitely want to be sensitive about this because accidental drowning

1210
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 1: deaths are are a very serious matter and a traumatic matter,

1211
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:17,839
Speaker 1: especially when it concerns children. I've known people personally affected

1212
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:20,759
Speaker 1: by tragedies like this, and and it is it's difficult

1213
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 1: to find words to even even talk about them. You know,

1214
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: there's just such a such a you know, a bleak

1215
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: traumatic experience to even contemplate. Uh. And I know that

1216
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 1: some of you out there listening to this episode you

1217
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:33,920
Speaker 1: may have lost people in this matter. And I do

1218
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:36,680
Speaker 1: want to drive home that you do have our our

1219
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 1: sympathies even as we discuss the you know, the human

1220
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 1: myth making that builds up around the truth. But but

1221
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,719
Speaker 1: let's let's stop just to consider some of the modern

1222
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 1: stats about accidental drowning. According to the CDC, from two

1223
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 1: thousand five to two thousand and fourteen, there were an

1224
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: average of three thousand, five hundred and thirty six fatal

1225
01:08:55,280 --> 01:09:00,120
Speaker 1: unintentional drownings non voting related annually in the United States,

1226
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:03,720
Speaker 1: about ten deaths per day. An additional three d and

1227
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:06,719
Speaker 1: thirty two people died each year from drowning in boat

1228
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 1: related incidents. About one in five people who die from

1229
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 1: drowning our children fourteen and younger, and for every child

1230
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 1: who dies from drowning, another five receive emergency department care

1231
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 1: for non fatal submersion injuries. This is worth noting here

1232
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 1: as well, because if you haven't if you don't have

1233
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:29,479
Speaker 1: any firsthand account with drowning, or you're not trained as

1234
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 1: a lifeguard, you might not realize that it's it's not

1235
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: just this definite line between drowning and almost drowning, between

1236
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,600
Speaker 1: you know, dying in the water and surviving. Um. The

1237
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 1: CDC page points out that uh more than fifty percent

1238
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:48,639
Speaker 1: of drowning victims treated in emergency departments require hospital treatment,

1239
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:52,799
Speaker 1: and non fatal drowning injuries can still cause severe brain damage,

1240
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:56,640
Speaker 1: the result in long term disabilities. Yeah. I mean, this

1241
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 1: kind of thing emphasizes and we should be clear that

1242
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 1: these are modern statistics. These are based on a time

1243
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:04,519
Speaker 1: where I think it is more common for people to

1244
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 1: know how to swim, like to have been taught how

1245
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 1: to swim. Um that this is probably not referring as

1246
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: often to people living in places where it's common for

1247
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 1: there to be stagnant pools that are covered in a

1248
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 1: map that make them look like grass. Um. I mean, so,

1249
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,440
Speaker 1: so yeah, this is different circumstances even but it highlights

1250
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:26,760
Speaker 1: how dangerous water can be. If you're an adult who

1251
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 1: knows how to swim and you don't think about dangers

1252
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 1: to children, you just really might not realize how real

1253
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 1: of a threat a standing body of water is. So

1254
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:39,439
Speaker 1: the myth making of Jenny Green Teeth as a as

1255
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: a warning to keep children away from the duckweed ponds

1256
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,080
Speaker 1: and the moral pits filled in it seems like a

1257
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 1: very very reasonable thing to do in a way. I mean,

1258
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:53,080
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily advocating making up fictional monsters to scare children,

1259
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 1: but you can see why people did it, And so

1260
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 1: Jenny is often used educationally as a safety warning. The

1261
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:02,719
Speaker 1: monster is invoked to keep children from playing near dangerous

1262
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 1: bodies of water or in other contexts that are dangerous,

1263
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 1: like around railroad tracks, like Vickery talked about. But here's

1264
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:12,000
Speaker 1: this interesting part we were talking about earlier that I

1265
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 1: feel like we still haven't necessarily solved. The thing you're

1266
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 1: warning children to stay away from is real, life threatening danger,

1267
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 1: and in order to get the message across, you have

1268
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 1: to create a fictional supernatural life threatening danger. Children are

1269
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 1: obviously motivated by self preservation or the fictional supernatural life

1270
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:35,240
Speaker 1: threatening danger wouldn't work. But for some reason, some risks

1271
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 1: to their body safety and their survival don't seem to

1272
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 1: be as salient or as as effective as others. And

1273
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:45,439
Speaker 1: apparently mothers and fathers are wagering that children are just

1274
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 1: not likely to obey warnings about the risks of deep

1275
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 1: water that says you could fall in and drown. They

1276
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 1: think children are more likely to obey a warning that

1277
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:57,640
Speaker 1: says the green Lady will get you. So why is

1278
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:01,600
Speaker 1: the fictional threat more compelling and more useful than the

1279
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 1: actual threat? Now I come back again to what I

1280
01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 1: said earlier about how I feel like the monster is

1281
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 1: actually still a sanitized version of the threat um And

1282
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 1: and isn't it interesting too that we see these examples

1283
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 1: where you're personifying the threat, you're turning the threat into

1284
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 1: the human identity. But then you're making it an old woman,

1285
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:26,120
Speaker 1: which also feels like a sanity, like you're sanitizing it

1286
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: because you're not making it into a man, which if

1287
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 1: you look at the if you look at the chances

1288
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:39,640
Speaker 1: of a of an individual posing a significant bodily and

1289
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: certainly a lethal threat to a child. That individual is

1290
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:47,280
Speaker 1: far more likely to be male. Um, you know, without

1291
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 1: certainly getting into into stranger danger and the more, you know,

1292
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:56,360
Speaker 1: inflated aspects of this sphere. But but you've you've, You've chosen.

1293
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 1: There seems to be there's an active choice here in

1294
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 1: making Jenny been teeth, making it an older female entity

1295
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: instead of a male entity, which would, again, I think,

1296
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 1: bring it too close to horrific real life situations that

1297
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:14,000
Speaker 1: you're trying to avoid and crafting the myth. I think

1298
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 1: I agree with that, though, then again, I wonder if

1299
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:19,920
Speaker 1: this is this is a sort of modern American cultural

1300
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:22,799
Speaker 1: bias on our part that makes us feel this way.

1301
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 1: I mean, we might not feel like old women are

1302
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 1: necessarily less dangerous. If we say we're in a context

1303
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 1: in which we believed witchcraft was real, that's true, that's true.

1304
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:36,599
Speaker 1: If we have we're taking this and we're we're steeping

1305
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 1: it in, uh, the age of witchcraft persecution and then

1306
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,680
Speaker 1: the an age in which which tales of hags and

1307
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 1: witches are are are found everywhere. Then again a lot

1308
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 1: of this is taking place, and say the early twentieth

1309
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 1: century in which case, I don't know how many people

1310
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:54,439
Speaker 1: in north Northwest England in the early twentieth century thought

1311
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:57,280
Speaker 1: witchcraft was real. But then again, it wasn't that far

1312
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,679
Speaker 1: removed from from witchcraft persecution. Again, we have to remember

1313
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:05,400
Speaker 1: that witchcraft persecution was was what was not a medieval

1314
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 1: um uh practice, it was post medieval so early modern. Yeah. Um.

1315
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 1: Before we we closed out here, I do want to

1316
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 1: quickly reference another green in today that I forgot to

1317
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:20,080
Speaker 1: mention that I should have mentioned, that I can only

1318
01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:22,479
Speaker 1: imagine is based in part on some of these ideas,

1319
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 1: and that is the Hitcher from the Mighty Bush, the

1320
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:31,520
Speaker 1: green skinned hag like male Cockney character. I'm not familiar.

1321
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,920
Speaker 1: Oh you haven't he sings the song about eels. No,

1322
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, those of you out there who

1323
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,200
Speaker 1: have watched The Mighty Bush you know what I'm talking about.

1324
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 1: If not, um, do a do a search for for

1325
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:45,640
Speaker 1: Bush and Hitcher, and I think you'll be delighted with

1326
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 1: what you find. I thought you were going to say,

1327
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 1: Cheddar Goblin, ch cheddar Goblin. It is a more recent phenomenon,

1328
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 1: but but I think probably unrelated to this particular fairy tale. Well, Robert,

1329
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 1: I have had massive fun with this epic exploration of

1330
01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:01,840
Speaker 1: water hags Jenny Green teeth. Yeah, this has been a

1331
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 1: good one. Uh, there was, there was. There's a lot

1332
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 1: more beneath the depths than one might think. You know,

1333
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 1: you don't know how deep that pond really is. All right.

1334
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:13,759
Speaker 1: If you want to check out more episodes of Stuff

1335
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, our other October offerings, October offerings

1336
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 1: from Halloween's past, you want to head out over to

1337
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership.

1338
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: That's where we'll find all of them. That's where you'll

1339
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:27,840
Speaker 1: find links out to our various social media accounts. That's

1340
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:29,200
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01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,679
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1342
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Speaker 1: merchandise with our logo on it. Uh, some stuff tying

1343
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01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 1: to support the show by buying just a little bit

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Speaker 1: of that merchandise. Big thanks as always to our wonderful

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Speaker 1: audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. If you would

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01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:49,759
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1348
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:52,240
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1349
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:54,040
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1350
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:56,200
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1351
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:58,240
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1352
01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:00,680
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1353
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com for more on this and

1354
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Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.

1355
01:16:59,640 --> 01:16:59,680
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