1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: The word book is one of the most powerful words 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: in all of the dialogue about First Amendment. There's nothing 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: more sacred than a book. And we knew the defense 4 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: was going to be, you can't go after a book. 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: That's an atrocity. So that was what we had to overcome. 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: I made a very calculated decision when we first started 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: this case. I said, we're going to go on a 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: media blitz. I remember I was a Larry King one 9 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: night and Larry King kept calling it a book, and 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: I stopped him dead. First of all, this is not 11 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: a book. If you're going to call this a book, 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: it is not a book. This is no this is 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: not a pamphlet. This is a murder manual. This is 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: a set of instructions to commit murder. A seven auctions 15 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: to commit murder. This book manuol or how to Guide. 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: We keep coming back to it. You can't find Hitman 17 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: on the shelves anymore. And this week I'm going to 18 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: tell you why. On the night of September four, a 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: separated mother of two put her kids to bed just 20 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: like every other night. Her nearly two year old son 21 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: had just started sleeping in a toddler bed, and as 22 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: many kids do. At one point during the night, he 23 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: went to sleep with his mom, Bobby, and then Bobby 24 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: was woken suddenly from a deep sleep. Someone was lifting 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: up her head and dropping it. She didn't have her 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: glasses on. Everything was blurry too dark. She couldn't see 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: and she couldn't breathe. The man in her bedroom had 28 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: his latex gloves tied around her neck. The kids, Why 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: are you doing this to the kids, she kept trying 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: to say, but he was choking her. Her son woke 31 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: up and started screaming, and the hitman startled. Let go. 32 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: So my name is Don Corson. I'm an attorney in 33 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: Gina Wagon and back maybe eighteen years or so ago, 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: i represented a woman named Bobby who was a survivor 35 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: of an attempt to murder attack by a would be 36 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: hitman who had bought a book about how to do that. 37 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: Bobby declined an interview for this podcast, but gave her attorney, 38 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: Don Courson, permission to speak about the case. And out 39 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: of respect for her privacy, we're just going to refer 40 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: to Bobby by her first name. And of course he 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: didn't think there's gonna be witnesses after this, and so 42 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: she engaged him in some conversation. They asked basically, hey, 43 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: my husband put you up to this, and again, figuring 44 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: there'd be no witnesses, he said yes. Studies show the 45 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: most common motive in a hitman case is disillusion of 46 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: a relationship, followed by money. Very few hits are performed 47 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: by quote masters. Most hitman, it turns out, are actually 48 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: first time amateurs who want to resolve some form of 49 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: personal crisis, usually a lack of money, and most of 50 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: them are in really found through acquaintances. That's true of 51 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: Lawrence Horn, who hired a hitman to kill his ex 52 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: wife and son for a one point seven million dollar estate, 53 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: and it's true in this story too. At the time, 54 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: Bobby was discussing divorce with her husband, Robert, who, according 55 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: to court documents, had a history of abuse, and Bobby 56 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: had a life insurance policy. He approached a coworker and 57 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: broached the idea. The coworker had never done anything like 58 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: this before in his life, but he was familiar with 59 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: Palette and Publisher products and had bought books before from them, 60 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: So he went and ordered from Paletta a book called Hitman, 61 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: a Technical Manual for Independent Contractors, and learned the craft 62 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: of becoming a contract killer, and there's just a laundry 63 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: list of advice given the book. Constructions given the book 64 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: that he followed sort of you know, verbatim, in trying 65 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: to execute this would be murder. The court documents paint 66 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: an unbelievable scene. Bobby had a full on conversation with hitman. 67 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: She even asked how much Robert was paying him on dollars. 68 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: The hitman replied, is that all his kids are worth 69 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: to him, I'll pay twice the amount. She shouted back, 70 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: remarkable uh and horrifying scene and sued in which this 71 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: young would be killer man had a wire cerreted type 72 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: wire that was used to slip throats, and he went 73 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: after with that. Bobby actually got the wire between her 74 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: teeth or she held it tight. He then pulled out 75 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: a knife. She got away again. Then the hitman drew 76 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: his handgun, held it to her head, and ordered her 77 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: to remove her son from the room. After doing this, 78 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: she ran, all the while hearing a clicking sound behind her. 79 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: He goes to pull the trigger on the handgun, the 80 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: specific kind of handgun recommended in the book, and the 81 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: gun jammed. She fought him off in the night, and 82 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: then the violence and then the confusion. Was able to 83 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: get out of the house and she survived with scarves bleeding. 84 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: The hitman then stole the family car as part of 85 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: his plan to try and make the hit look like 86 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: a bungled residential robbery, just like James Perry, the hitman 87 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: who killed Millie, Trevor and Janice did. He raced to 88 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: the outskirts of town to meet his accomplice was waiting 89 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 1: in a getaway car. They had filled up the gas 90 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: tank just prior to attacking Bobby, another tip from the 91 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: hitman book. And then you tried to dispose of all 92 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: the materials using the would be killing ditching them and 93 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: ditches and bushes and rivers, and you know, he just 94 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: falling in the game plan with the book. Bobby's husband 95 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: and his coworker were arrested shortly after, and both were 96 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: sentenced to seventeen and a half years in prison. Detectives 97 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: had found the hitman manual in this would be Hitman's 98 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: work locker. According to court documents, the hitman actually admitted 99 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: to a detective that quote. Without the book, he would 100 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: not have considered it at all. It gave him the 101 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: confidence that he could do it. I'm Jasmine Morris from 102 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio and Hit Home Media. This is hit Man, 103 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: I promised a Milli and Trevor. I will not rest 104 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: until all the players that were involved in their death 105 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: they are brought to justice. And there are people that said, oh, 106 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: you you can't take on the First Amendment. First amendment 107 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: is protected. Well, it is protected, but I mean you 108 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: can't hurt people. Maryland Farmer. Millie's sister was a social 109 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: studies teacher. I would have taught to my kids, let's 110 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: look at the purpose of the book. The purpose of 111 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: the book is to kill and to get away with it. 112 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: Murder is a crime in this country, so this book 113 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: is perpetuating a crime. So that's what I would have 114 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: taught to my students, and I used it as an 115 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: example if you don't have absolute power and rights, constitution 116 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: doesn't get that. For two years, Million Trevor's family had struggled, 117 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: knowing the pain and loss would never go away, but 118 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: wondering what more they could do. If we can get 119 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: this book off the market and we can do something 120 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: to help another family not experience this. So we talked 121 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: to the lawyers that had handled Trevor's case and asked 122 00:07:55,080 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: him what we're our chances? We were feeling terrible about 123 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: what had happened. John Marshall is a quiet, humble and 124 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: kind man who let me record him on a sunny 125 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: day at a small cottage that sits on a lake shore. 126 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,119 Speaker 1: Every so often a boat would pass by. We pause 127 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: and wait for the boats and the birds to quiet down. 128 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: I saw his patients firsthand. Remember, John and his co 129 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: council Howard Siegel, helped the Horn family win a settlement 130 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: against Children's Hospital, the money that ultimately cost Milly and 131 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: Trevor their lives. John grew quite close to Milly. Her 132 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: sister is in Tiffany, so revisiting all of this while 133 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: on vacation probably was an ideal or easy. We're lawyers, 134 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: were not doctors, were not psychologists, we're not therapists. So 135 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: it was like, what can we do. We're not going 136 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: to right this wrong, but what can we do to 137 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: sort of get some kind of value out of this, 138 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: not in a monetary way, but in a legal way, 139 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: in a HAPs, in a moral way, if we could, 140 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: how can we help this family? For Howard and John, 141 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: along with Millie, Trevor and Janice families. It felt like 142 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: someone or something was still at large. Another accomplice of sorts. 143 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: We met in the Montgomery County Law Library in the courthouse. 144 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: I said, what do you know about the First Amendment? 145 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: And John said, I know that it comes first. And 146 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: we had a good laugh about that one. We actually 147 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: pulled out a copy of the Constitution and we read it. 148 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: At this point in their careers, Howard Siegel and John 149 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: Marshall were both civil litigation attorneys. There was really nothing 150 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: on their resumes that would qualify them to go after 151 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: a book publisher and argue about the limits of the 152 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: First Amendment. Something is sacred and central to the American law, 153 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: is anything in the Constitution. Nonetheless, I said, John, I 154 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: don't care what it says. This ship cannot be detected 155 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: by the First Amendment. Howard defined the ship. The ship 156 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: is a murder manual. This was a recipe for murder. 157 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: They were teaching people how to become hired killers. And 158 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: I said, we gotta go after these guys, meaning Paletin Pressed. 159 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: So Howard and John helped Millie's family file the civil 160 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: suit Rice versus Palettin Press. Rice's Vivian Elaine Rice another 161 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: one of Millie's sisters, and so we set off on 162 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: this I think most people thought very quixotic endeavor, and 163 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: we file the lawsuit against them and immediately got enormous publicity. 164 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: This became a huge deal because we were attacking the press. 165 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: Janice Saunders, husband Michael, and their seven year old son. 166 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: We're all so listed as plaintiffs in the lawsuit. We 167 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: haven't talked a lot about Janis in this podcast because 168 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: no one in her family was up for talking. Understandably, 169 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 1: but so often when this story is told, Janie is 170 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: simply reduced to her occupation the nurse. But she was 171 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: also the mother of a young boy. She was a sister, 172 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: a daughter, a wife, and a friend of many. She 173 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: loved horses, nature, cross stitching in life. She was thirty 174 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: eight when she was killed. I have had a few 175 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: phone calls with her husband, Michael. He didn't want to 176 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: be recorded, saying I declined an interview only in a 177 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: sense that I've tried to move on with my life. 178 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: But he also said I would like to speak about 179 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: some of these things you've told me, stuff that I 180 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: did not know. I didn't know Peter was dead, and 181 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: if you don't remember history, you'll repeat it. He said. 182 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: There's way more to the story than what people perceived. 183 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: And these stories expand as decades go by, not just 184 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: after a jury decide what is and isn't going to happen. 185 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: So I'll quote or paraphrase Michael Saunders from time to time. 186 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: He had his own attorney, who also declined an interview, 187 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: and he remembered eventually joining forces with Millie's sisters in 188 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: the lawsuit against Paladin Press, mostly for his son Colin, 189 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: who lost his mother at just four years old. He 190 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: told me, Peter Lund saw the carnage of war in Vietnam. 191 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: I was in Vietnam too, but I didn't come back 192 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: and publish books about baby bottle bombs. We'll be right back. 193 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: After the short break, I was obsessed again, Howard Siegel, 194 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: It's just all I thought about for years. I put 195 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: most of my practice on whole walk up in the 196 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: morning thinking about this, and went to bed at night 197 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: thinking about it. It was just all consuming. As Howard 198 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: and John were preparing their suit, they weren't looking for advice. 199 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: They eventually met Rod Smola, a law professor and first 200 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: amendent scholar. He thought we were nuts. Everybody thought we 201 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: were nuts. Brandenburg versus Ohio will kill you. Everyone warned 202 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: them about this case and the precedent it set. It 203 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 1: was a case involving a KKK rally in Ohio, and 204 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: they arrested the speakers, and the court said that that 205 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,599 Speaker 1: was impermissible. They're entitled to their speech. Ruth Bader Ginsburg 206 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: talked about the Brandenburg case during her confirmation hearing, saying 207 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: that the N nine ruling was one of the great 208 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: milestones in Supreme Court history. Brandenburg against Ohio truly recognizes 209 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: that free speech means not freedom of thought for those 210 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: and speech for those with whom we agree, but freedom 211 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: of expression for the expression we hate. And the only 212 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: way you can arrest them is if that speech is 213 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: likely to produce imminent danger. This is what John and 214 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: Howard were grappling with. So that's the test. Is it 215 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: likely to produce imminent danger? How could a book that's 216 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: published in Colorado, that's sent to Detroit, that was purchased 217 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: a year before that resulted in a murder be argued 218 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: as likely to produce imminent danger? That was the big problem. 219 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: I talked to Tom Kelly, the press lawyer who represented 220 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: Paladin in this case. He spoke with me the week 221 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: he retired from a very long and distinguished career defending 222 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: media organizations in their First Amendment rights. You know, I 223 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: struggled with opposing people who were trying to recover for 224 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: the loss of love ones. Uh. I didn't enjoy that particularly, 225 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: But if you're going to do First Amendment work, it 226 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: comes with baggage like that, and one has to accept 227 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: that and the soldier through it. As we know, Paladin 228 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: publisher paider Lund genuinely believed it was his right to 229 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: publish this information and as customers bore the full responsibility 230 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: for what they did with it. David Dubro, the former 231 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: Paladin employee we heard from in our last episode, told 232 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: us when you attribute motivations to inanimate objects like books 233 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: and videos and firearms and edge weapons, then at that 234 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: point you're living in an animust universe where something can 235 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: get up and start attacking you on its own, which 236 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: is which is crazy. Paladin actually had a legal defense 237 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: fund set up so readers could help them fight this 238 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: legal battle. You have a right to know how to 239 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: make a truck bomb, use it or lose it, because 240 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: freedom is for everyone, or no one read one email blast. 241 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: Your freedom to read is under attack. Okay, Setting aside 242 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: the question of whether anyone has the right to make 243 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: a truck bomb, the larger consequences here are real. I mean, 244 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: the idea of limiting speech and a free press. That's scary. 245 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: The whole business was, Hey, here's information you can't get 246 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: anywhere else. This is where you can go get it. 247 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: And it's wrong to say that you can't get it. 248 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: It's wrong, like suppressing knowledge, suppressing information. It's stupid. You 249 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: can't do it, especially now. But it was an objective wrong. 250 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. That's the foundation of pretty much everything 251 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: I do and believe in. All these years looking into 252 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: the Hitman book have led to some seriously uncomfortable questions. 253 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: I get the implications. I'm not alone in that. My 254 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: name is Paul McMasters. I am retired now, but served 255 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: as a national authority on First Amendment issues as a 256 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: First Amendment on Budsman at the Freedom Forum. He was 257 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: also a newspaper editor and testified before Congress on First 258 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: Amendment issues. I talked to McMasters just last week. I 259 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: read the book more than once. I felt nothing, but 260 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: discussed it did not incite me at all to go 261 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: out and kill somebody, or to share with somebody else that, Hey, 262 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: if you want to kill somebody, here's here's the way 263 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: to do it. It It is the easy way out when 264 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: confronted with the sort of vile speech that this book represented. 265 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 1: But I see absolutely no way over time how that 266 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: could be separated from other kinds of speech that come 267 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: close to that or go further than that. Even because 268 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: of that exact concern, a lot of surprising allies rallied 269 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: to Peladan's defense. When we filed this case. You know, 270 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: we knew that the First Amendment community was gonna just 271 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: pound us. I mean, they were going to come after 272 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: us with guns blazing. The First Amendment community is probably 273 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: the most powerful lobby in the world. You're talking about 274 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: the publishing industry, the movie industry. Sixteen media organizations, including 275 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: The Washington Post, The New York Times, ABC, the National 276 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: Association of Broadcasters all came out in support of Paladin's position. 277 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: They jointly filed an amicust brief that said, quote allowing 278 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: this lawsuit to survive will disturb decades of First Amendment 279 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: jurisprudence and jeopardize free speech from the periphery to the core. 280 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: No expression, music, video books, even newspaper articles would be 281 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: safe from civil liability. You're talking about radio, you're talking 282 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: about television. Walt Disney, Mini and Mickey Mouse were just 283 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: all over my ass. There was just whostsale panic in 284 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: the First Amendment community. They were worried about the proverbial 285 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: slippery slope. If we let Sego go after this book, 286 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: he's going to be going after the Bible next, and fiction, 287 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: and you know, all kinds of things. Of course, I 288 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: learned afterwards that the reason slopes are slippery is that 289 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: lawyers gresome with bullshit. So on the one side you 290 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: have paladins and the heaviest heavyweights in media, and on 291 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: the other side you have Howard and John in the 292 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: victims families. And I'll let John tell you what happened. Next. 293 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: District court judge didn't even give us the time and day. 294 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: He said, I agree, Brandenburgh wins off you go. It 295 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: was like three minutes. So this case was closed. But 296 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: as we know, Howard wasn't gonna let one decision stand 297 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 1: in his way. And here's where I want to explain 298 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: a really important part of Howard and John's theory. And 299 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: to understand it, let's go back to something Tom Kelly, 300 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: Paladin's lawyer, said to me. The books published are very 301 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: unlikely to be the cause of criminal conduct, murder, mayhem, 302 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: what have you. Howard and John's theory hinged on the 303 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: word cause in terms of Brandenburg versus Ohio. They realized 304 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: that if you're arguing that the books are the cause 305 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: of the violence, you're gonna lose. But what if you 306 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: can convince people that a book aided the killer and 307 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: that the publisher intended it to be used that way. 308 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: Our theory was this speech aided and embedded the murder. 309 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: It was not just I hate you, or even go 310 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: kill that son of a gun. This was I'm telling 311 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: you how to kill somebody. This is people profiting off 312 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: the death of innocent people. When I did the aiding 313 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: and abetting research, I remember there were almost no cases. 314 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: Nobody had ever used it before. I mean you have 315 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: to go back to almost ancient England to find aiding 316 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: in abanding cases. They were very, very rare. This is 317 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: what qualifies as aiding and abetting under the law, which 318 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: is more common in criminal cases as opposed to civil 319 00:20:55,119 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: cases like this. But Howard said, anyone who counsels, commands, induces, cures, 320 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: or provides substantial assistance to another to commit a crime 321 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: or a civil wrong is jointly liable with the person 322 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: who commits the crime or civil wrong. I mean, the 323 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: most obvious example is the mafia boss who tells one 324 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: of his hit men to go kill Joe Banana whack them. 325 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: He's going to be eating at Alfonso's at eight o'clock, 326 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: and the FBI happens to have a wire tap on 327 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: the conversation with the hitman. Well, the day of trial, 328 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: if the mafia boss's lawyer stands up and says, your honor, 329 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: this is protected speech is protected by the First Amendment. Right. 330 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: The court's response, in a dignified way would be, are 331 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: you shooting me in order to commit murder? You're saying 332 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: is protected by the First Amendment. It's simply a method 333 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: that you're using to facilitate a criminal act. Tom Kelly, meanwhile, 334 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: was busy preparing a defense that basically boiled down to 335 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: this book is completely absurd. The book, in my view, 336 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 1: was reasonably clearly intended for entertainment. You know you have 337 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: a hitman by the name of Rex Ferrell, which literally 338 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: means king of the wild animals. The book begins with 339 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: a prologue that reads like a typical fictional account of 340 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: an assassination, like something in Tom Clancy or Vince Flynn. 341 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: This was gonna be their defense at the trial John Marshall, 342 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: and nobody would really take this seriously. But the answer 343 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: was James Perry did. What's weird about this argument is 344 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: that it's disproven by the book itself. Right before you 345 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: get to the table of contents in Hitman, there's a disclaimer. 346 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: It says neither the author nor the publisher assumes responsibility 347 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 1: for the use or misuse of information contained in this 348 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: book for informational purposes only exclamation point. Informational purposes, not entertainment. 349 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: Is nothing that says don't take this book seriously. And 350 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: there's a warning that tells readers making an unlicensed pistol 351 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: silencer is against the law, but it says nothing about 352 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: laws against murder, conspiracy to murder, or assault. Howard told 353 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: me these kinds of disclaimers never hold up in court. 354 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: And beyond that, his argument was this wasn't a case 355 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: of misuse, because he says the book was used exactly 356 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: as Paladin intended it to be used. Based on the 357 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: fact that it was written as a how to manual, 358 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: Howard likens it to a cookie recipe. If you publish 359 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: a recipe on cookies, you expect people to make cookies. 360 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: It's not convincing at all. That's one of the things 361 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: that always irritated me about me at coverage. It assumes 362 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: there were those twenty two specific esoteric details he followed 363 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: to the extent he followed any and, and the proof 364 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: on that is weak. There are common knowledge in the 365 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: criminal world and general knowledge to the general public through 366 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: popular archer. Tom Kelly to this day doesn't believe James 367 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: Perry learned much from the book, much less followed it 368 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,719 Speaker 1: any plane. If who wants to recover money has to 369 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: prove causation. We'd anticipated in an argument that the book 370 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: gave Perry the confidence he needed to pull this off. 371 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: That's something certainly not credible in view of his long 372 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: criminal history in which he actually shot and wounded a 373 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: police officer. Clearly the murder would have occurred regardless of 374 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: what was on Perry's night stand. And we know this 375 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: because we dug into the facts and James Perry got caught, 376 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: So that's the other part of the argument, it must 377 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: not have been a very good book. Also, this book 378 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: was sold, you know, not through channels calculated to reach 379 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: Hitman only, but through national bookstore chains. I mean, I 380 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: don't know what a Hitman only channel would even look like. 381 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: But the point is not everybody who bought this book 382 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: or read the book out to be or turned into 383 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: a hit Man was available in lending libraries, and it 384 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: actually sold thirteen thousand copies before this happened in the 385 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: late nineties. It's unthinkable that thousand hitman bought this book. 386 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: It's almost unthinkable that that did. It was sold to 387 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: a general, undifferentiated audience, and with that kind of marketing, 388 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: it's hard to see how either the publishers or the 389 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: readers could consider this a serious technical manual for independent contractors. Now, 390 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: this is really really important. Before this lawsuit progressed, all 391 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: the parties agreed to a set of facts that would 392 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: eventually come out in trial. Paladin Press stipulated that James 393 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: Perry followed numerous instructions from Hitman in planning, executing, and 394 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: attempting to cover up these murders that they knew and 395 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: intended that this instructional manual would be used by criminals 396 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: to come at criminal acts. They made this admission and 397 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: what's been called quote almost taunting defiance, because they were 398 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: confident they had First Amendment protections, and of course, the 399 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: first time they sat before a judge, Paladin was right. 400 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: But with their aiding and abetting theory in hand, Howard 401 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: and John filed an appeal. We went up to the 402 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: federal Fourth Circuit and we drew Judge Looting, who was 403 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: pretty conservative guy, actually a very conservative guy. I think 404 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: he's been considered for the Supreme Court by every Republican president. 405 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: Judge Michael Ludig was appointed to the U. S. Court 406 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit in by former President 407 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: George Bush. Before that, he was an assistant Attorney General 408 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: at the U. S. Department of Justice. So we get 409 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: to the argument and we're up first, and Looting comes 410 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: in and he's got a notebook maybe three inches thick 411 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: with i'd say two colored tabs. Had no idea what 412 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: any of this meant other than we were pretty sure 413 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: he was prepared. So that argument begins and my sense was, 414 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: oh my god, we're getting creamed. This is how appellate 415 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: arguments go. If the judges are engaged, they love to 416 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: basically make you feel like you're a complete idiot. And 417 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: then the other side got up and lootingg just let 418 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: him have it. It was so clear that he was 419 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: not ruling for them. It was thirty minutes of him 420 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: tearing their case to shreds. His opinion was that the 421 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: First Amendment did not protect this speech and that our 422 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: theory of aiding and embedding was valid. So we we 423 00:27:52,440 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: got our victory. Judge Looting reversed lower Court's decision, saying 424 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: they misunderstood Brandenburg. He wrote a sixty page opinion that 425 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: I distilled down to one sentence, and that one sentences, 426 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: this ship isn't protected again. Paul McMasters well, I was, 427 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: I have to tell you a little bit surprised, as 428 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: others have noted. Also, j. Lending seemed personally offended by 429 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: the existence of the Hitman Manual, and from my perspective, 430 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: it led him to make a wrong decision. This opinion 431 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: is really something. Judge Ludig lists passages from the book, 432 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: saying these selections are quote but a small fraction of 433 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: the total number of instructions that appear in the page manual, 434 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: and the court has even felt it necessary to omit 435 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: portions of these few illustrative passages in order to minimize 436 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: the danger to the public from their repetition. Here in 437 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: I thought a lot about that when making this podcast. 438 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: You've heard us quote the book quite a bit, But 439 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: what we've shared that's a fraction of the passages this 440 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: judge even included. Anyway. He goes on to say, after 441 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: carefully and repeatedly reading Hitman in its entirety, we are 442 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: of the view that the book so overtly promotes murder 443 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: and concrete, non abstract terms that we regard as disturbingly disingenuous. 444 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: Both Paladin's cavalier suggestion that the book is essentially a 445 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: comic book whose fantastical promotion of murder no one could 446 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: take seriously. He's basically saying Howard and John's aiding in 447 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: a betting theory applies in this specific case. Looting also 448 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: outlines why and how this case is special. He says, 449 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: Paladin's astonishing stipulations, coupled with the extraordinary comprehensiveness, detail, and 450 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 1: clarity of Hitman's instructions for criminal activity in murder. In particular, 451 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: the boldness of its palpable exhortation to murder, the alarming 452 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: power and effectiveness of its peculiar form of instruction, the 453 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: notable absence from its text of the kind of ideas 454 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: for the protection of which the First Amendment exists, and 455 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: the book's evident lack of any arguably legitimate purpose beyond 456 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: the promotion and teaching of murder render this case unique 457 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: in the law. We'll be right back. Judge Ludig's opinion 458 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: was a big deal. This has never been done before. 459 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: A federal judge said a publisher could be held liable 460 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: for publishing this kind of content, meaning instruction manuals, allowing 461 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: the case to move forward to trial. They took it 462 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court denied sure 463 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: sure are, which means they let the decision stand. The 464 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: legal precedent was set. Never before has such a lawsuit prevailed, 465 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: as one Washington Post article put it, going on to say, 466 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: quote never in the modern history of the First Amendment. 467 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: As a court found the printed word capable of this 468 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: kind of incitement to imminent lawlessness that would remove free 469 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: speech protection. But again, all of this was just legal 470 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: theory at this point. Establishing grounds for the Rice versus 471 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: Paladin civil trial. That was the next and final step. 472 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: So John and Howard began the discovery process. We decided 473 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: we wanted to take the deposition of Pader Lund, and 474 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: so we did that out in Boulder where his offices were. 475 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: And that was Howard's deal. This was his baby all 476 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: the way. For the first time Howard and Payder Lund 477 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: came face to face. Howard called him an imposing looking 478 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: guy who clearly looked uncomfortable and nervous as the anticipated 479 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: the traps Howard was about to set for him. They 480 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: sat across the table from each other in Paladin's conference room. 481 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: Howard asked one question after another. He said, Lund sat 482 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: with his arms folded and kept his answers very short. 483 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: There was no hostility, just a quiet arrogance. This lasted 484 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: eight or nine hours. It was an all day deposition, 485 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: and Lund was a formidable foe. Didn't give in a bit. 486 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: But Howard was very clever, and at one pot he 487 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: was going through the catalog of all of their books 488 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: and finally says to him, I see here, there's no 489 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: there's no book here about how to blow up airplanes 490 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: and London admitted that we simply don't do that. There 491 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: is a line somewhere, There is a line. A Washington 492 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: Post article from said Lund once wrote to the author 493 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: of a then forthcoming book, revenge Ville, Sick Humor for 494 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: the Deranged Mind, saying, quote, we're editing out some of 495 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: the more heinous acts you propose, as they are not 496 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: only illegal, but in bad taste. Illegality does not particularly 497 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: trouble me. Bad taste always does. He wouldn't publish hate 498 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: literature either, or books on poison too easy for children 499 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: to fool with, though information on the latter did manage 500 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: to make it into hit man. But in this context, 501 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: lund standards didn't help his case. He was dead meat. 502 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: After that, we walked out Rod and I said, you know, 503 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: g he was tough, and Howard had it all in 504 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: his head already. He had already had it pictured how 505 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: he was going to play portions of the deposition to 506 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: a jury to get to the point where there's a line. 507 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: And he was right. All these years later, Howard is 508 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: still unsettled by what he says he saw in that deposition. 509 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: I said, Mr, Lund, you know that people are going 510 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: to use your publications to commit murders and criminal acts, 511 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: don't you And he said possibly? And I said do 512 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: you care? And he said no. And that was the 513 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: end of the deposition. Michael Saunders told me that he 514 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: was brought in to watch this deposition at one point 515 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: and remembered lund saying this. Saunders said they were there 516 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: to make money and he didn't care that a four 517 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: year old's mother was killed because of a book he 518 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: didn't need to publish. Here's Howard, this was my experience 519 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 1: touching evil. I touched it twice with Lawrence Horn and 520 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: then paid lund. People who just don't care, people who 521 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: have no compassion for the consequences of their acts. Once again, 522 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: Paladin's lawyer, Tom Kelly has a different view. That is 523 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: not the Peter Lundon. I knew he felt strongly about 524 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: the First Amendment, but saying he didn't care, it's not 525 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: something I remember I would want to say. I doubt 526 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: that occurred unless someone can show me the deposition. I've 527 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: been trying to get it, actually, but I haven't been successful. 528 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: These twenty year old cases tend to disappear. It's just 529 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: the way it is. At this point, John and Howard 530 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: were confident they would win over a jury, but it 531 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 1: would never actually make it that far, in part because 532 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: this happened. Authorities in Littleton, Colorado were securing the scene 533 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: of a deadly school shooting so they can make a 534 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,760 Speaker 1: final body count as the community. This is news footage 535 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: after school shooting at Columbine High School in Colorado, about 536 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: an hour south of Paladin's headquarters, searching for booby traffic 537 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: explosive was left behind by the Choe suspects in the 538 00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: Colorado school shooting. The Columbine shooters didn't specifically was how 539 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: to manuals from Paladin, but they did use the Anarchist 540 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: Cookbook and other how to guides they found on the 541 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: internet to make homemade explosives. I had the nation in shock. 542 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: We were very concerned, and it was there was a 543 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: terrible environment in which to try a case like this. 544 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: It was clear that it was going to be hard 545 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: to find a jury sympathetic to Paladin's arguments. So just 546 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: days before trial, on Paladin Press's insurance company agreed to 547 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: settle the case out of court. Well, I was delighted 548 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: that I was not going to have to talk to 549 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: a jury and tell them I can understand all the 550 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: sympathy you feel for these people that have been through hell. 551 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 1: But we're going to have to ask you to follow 552 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: the oath you took and look at the facts of 553 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: this case and decide what brought this crime about, what 554 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: made it happen, how it happened, in whether this book 555 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: had any significant role in it, or whether it wasn't 556 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: early dwarfed by the greed, by the will and the 557 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: stealth of Lawrence Horn, Paladin's insurance carrier was calling the shots. 558 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 1: I went home with a combination of relief and regret. 559 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: And the question was why did we settle the case? 560 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 1: And the answer was simple. It was two pieces. One 561 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: we had won the law already. It was never going 562 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: to get better than what we had already done. And 563 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: to Janice Saunders family, I mean, she was the big 564 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: breadwinner and her family and she left a husband and 565 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: a little boy. They needed the money. So we settled 566 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: the case three days before trial. We said, you have 567 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 1: to give us all of the books, take it off 568 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: the market, and they did later. This was posted to 569 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: Paladin's website. Quote. Circumstances and changing times have caused Paladin 570 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: to scale back publishing some of the more controversial material. 571 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: It had been known for in the past. After the 572 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: settlement of the Hitman lawsuit, in the passage of legislation 573 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: making it legally treacherous to distribute information on explosives, the 574 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: company stopped publishing some eighty titles on explosives, demolitions, improvised 575 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: weaponry in self defense. So of course the book was 576 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: on the internet. Two weeks later. The Hitman case was 577 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,479 Speaker 1: happening as the Internet was taking off, So in a way, 578 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 1: for John and Howard, the battle against Paladin was one, 579 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: but the war was lost. And nowadays this issue is 580 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: just as pressing and irresolvable, and just as we've done 581 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: with some of the hate sites recently, we should look 582 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: at trying to close down the servers and things like 583 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: that if we see that they're being used to export 584 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: violence of some sort or and they're being used to 585 00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: fullment terrorism. Again, terrorism expert Neil Livingstone, there's no good reason. 586 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: But it's not as easy as it was when it 587 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: was printed literature. If the government had had the will, 588 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: they could have shut fatal undown and taken him into 589 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: chords and things like that, and they could have contained 590 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: the problem at that time, but they let it get 591 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: out of hand. All that stuff that seemed into the 592 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: public domain now and it's all been posted on the internet. 593 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: There's another irony in the timing here, when the Hitman 594 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: book was used again in the unsuccessful hit on Bobby. 595 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: The hit man in that case bought the book just 596 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: months before the decision in the Rice versus Paladin case. 597 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: A few months more and he wouldn't have been able 598 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: to buy the book from Paladin, but he did in 599 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: using Rice Versus Paladin as a precedent. Bobby sued Paladin 600 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,720 Speaker 1: in two thousand two. They settled again. So the Rice case, 601 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: the decision, it's implications, it's either murky or crystal clear, 602 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: depending on who you talked to. Everyone's drawn a different 603 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: lesson from this case. I asked Tom Kelly, what's the 604 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: most important thing you'd want people to take away from 605 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: this story? That things are rarely as simple as they appear, 606 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: at least in this case. But it's reasonably clear this 607 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: book did not inform these murders, you know. I find 608 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: it hard to imagine a case of one human being 609 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,839 Speaker 1: intentionally killing another who happened to read a book on 610 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: how to do that. I interviewed John and Howard twenty 611 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: five years after Milly, Trevor, and Janice were murdered, and 612 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: even though they prevailed in both cases, the medical malpractice 613 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,799 Speaker 1: case and the hit man case, John called it very 614 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,359 Speaker 1: bitter sweet, and maybe even more bitter than sweet. Even so, 615 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,760 Speaker 1: Howard also says this it's what every young lawyer dreams, 616 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: that one day you'll have a case like this where 617 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: you can come out of the gray. Because most of 618 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: the law is practiced in the great You know, is 619 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: there a case out here that's black and white, that's 620 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: good versus evil, where there is no moral argument on 621 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: the other side. You know, I'm ever going to have 622 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: a case that's totally clean, and this was that case 623 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: for me. I think the other thing we do is lawyers, 624 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: is we're sort of all looking for redemption for not 625 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: having done enough right and that's what you hope for 626 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 1: and for Millie's family. Did it make me feel better? No, 627 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 1: it didn't take away your pain. It didn't take away 628 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,720 Speaker 1: my pain. I'm sure it didn't take away Tiffany's pain. 629 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: Hopefully we've saved somebody from the pain that we've gone through. 630 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 1: That was the whole goal, and I think we tried 631 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: really hard to just make that impact that this was wrong. 632 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: This wasn't okay. I think we did, but you can't 633 00:41:49,760 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: really control this type of information. And all that fear 634 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 1: around whether this decision would be detrimental to the rights 635 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: of free speech and a free press, Michael Saunders told 636 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: me all they're ruling on is one specific case. They're 637 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: not saying you can sue over whatever you want to 638 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: and win because of this ruling. And here's Howard's take, 639 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: The slope was not slippery. There hasn't been a single 640 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:29,320 Speaker 1: decision that has expanded No work of fiction, no movie, 641 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: no television show, no writer has ever been held libel 642 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: for somebody misusing his art. That brings me back to 643 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: the writer who started all of this, Rex Ferrell. Paladin 644 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: agreed to protect him as the publisher, cooperated in the 645 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,720 Speaker 1: Horn Perry criminal trials and both of these lawsuits heading 646 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,919 Speaker 1: over correspondence, phone records, payment records. The author's real name 647 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,919 Speaker 1: is nowhere to be found. And so we've come back 648 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: to where I first started my curiosity around this book 649 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: and who wrote it, why they wrote it. I'm not 650 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: looking to docs anyone call them out or hold them 651 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: to some kind of reckoning, but my sense was that 652 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: there's got to be more to the story, and I'm 653 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: going to take you through what I've learned over the 654 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: last few years. I just wanted some answers, so I 655 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: started asking around, what do you know about the author 656 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: Rex Farrell? It's a woman, It's about all I know. 657 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: Do you ever know anything about the author of the book? 658 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: If I remember right, it was a woman who wrote 659 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: the book, and it was a woman who who was 660 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: not a hitman. I don't think she was a professional hitman. 661 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: I think she was a mother or divorced mother of 662 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: a couple of kids, and she was writing a book 663 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: to make enough money to make the rent. In Paladin's 664 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: effort to make it dis look all like this is 665 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 1: a big joke, that this really was just a comic book, 666 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: they revealed that the author of the book, with a 667 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: pseudonym of Rex Ferrell, was actually a woman and that 668 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: she just made all this stuff up. She may have 669 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: ultimately been involved in right things, but I can't believe 670 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,359 Speaker 1: she was anything other than duped. That's next on hit Man. 671 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 1: Hitman is a production of I Heart Radio and hit 672 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: Home Media. It's produced and reported by me Jasmine Morris. 673 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Michelle Lance, Mark Ltto is our 674 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: story consultant, executive producers, our main guest, Hatticor and Me. 675 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,920 Speaker 1: Mixing by Josh Roguson, Michelle Lance and Jacopo Penzo. Our 676 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,560 Speaker 1: fact checker is not sumi Ajisaka. Special thanks to Andrew Goldberg, 677 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,839 Speaker 1: Michael Garofolo, Tory Piquette, Lucas Riley, and Bill McQuay. Our 678 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: theme song by Alice McCoy in. Additional music written and 679 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: produced by the students at DIME, powered by the Detroit 680 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 1: Institute of Music at UCATION,