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Speaker 1: Trust me, you don't want to hear my voice anymore.
Speaker 1: Hey there, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. This week,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about another mysterious mystery. But first,
Speaker 1: let me tell you my name. I'm Joe. Across from
Speaker 1: me to my right is and other right is Steve. Okay,
Speaker 1: pretty much, we're just both in front of you, so yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty much. Okay, So our mysterious mystery. This week we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about the strange death of or think
Speaker 1: the story this one yet I don't. I don't know why,
Speaker 1: but but it's time. Fine this This is a classic,
Speaker 1: really is it really is? It's probably a lot of
Speaker 1: you guys have heard of it already. This happened in
Speaker 1: New York City. I feel like it's one of those
Speaker 1: stories where we all kind of think, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 1: should do that. I'm not quite ready yet. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: so classic. I'm not quite right to quite ready yet.
Speaker 1: And Joe was just like, whatever, I'm doing it, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is on the list, Okay, cool, I'll run about
Speaker 1: it by Yeah, I just running over with a tank
Speaker 1: or great. Yeah, it's it's got but it's got a
Speaker 1: lot of cool stuff. It's got some egget to Christie
Speaker 1: you kind of twist and a nice murder and it's
Speaker 1: like a locked room mystery, locked room genuine. Yeah. And actually, uh,
Speaker 1: it has got a lot of publicity at the time. Actually,
Speaker 1: a couple of big time crime writers wrote wrote fictional
Speaker 1: stories based on it, and there was a movie based
Speaker 1: on it too. I think, yeah, so it's at least
Speaker 1: one if not, and you know, who knows. I mean,
Speaker 1: how many other stories it might have inspired. It's like
Speaker 1: there's not that many real life locked room mysteries. This
Speaker 1: is definitely one of those Colonel situations. Is the kernel
Speaker 1: of a lot of things. Yeah, we've done We've done
Speaker 1: one other one and that's really it was at La Plaza. No,
Speaker 1: it was, I did it nothing. She started talking about
Speaker 1: locked room. She's talking about stories that are Colonel. So
Speaker 1: I'm talking about a lot of What was the one
Speaker 1: with the woman who may or may not have poisoned
Speaker 1: her husband who was like twenty years older than her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I did this one too, or that it was in London, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah that was Williams or something. Oh god, what was it?
Speaker 1: What was that name? Yeah, yeah, I know on you're
Speaker 1: talking about. Yeah, okay, yeah, wow. I'm usually really good
Speaker 1: at us. I actually don't because by the time you
Speaker 1: hear this figured it out. The murder of Julia Wallace, Yes,
Speaker 1: that's it. Yeah, okay, so Julia Wallace and then that's
Speaker 1: also a good lockroom mystery La Plaza. Yeah. So yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some out there, but you know, I don't think
Speaker 1: those are as great as this one is the best. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's so so awesome. Nobody ever actually spends much
Speaker 1: time wondering who actually killed is it or a Fank?
Speaker 1: They just want to know, They just want to know
Speaker 1: how they did it, whoever it was and killed him. First,
Speaker 1: I want to give a shout out to our listener Emily,
Speaker 1: who suggested this story a long long time ago, like
Speaker 1: three years ago. I thank so thanks Emily. And now
Speaker 1: into her story. First, is it or Fank? He was
Speaker 1: a Polish immigrant to America. He was thirty years old
Speaker 1: when he died. He owned a small laundry in Upper
Speaker 1: New York City, Like you know, like, oh God, where
Speaker 1: it was it? I think I had her in thirty
Speaker 1: second Street. Which neighborhood is that because I'm really bad
Speaker 1: with my New York geography because it is neighborhood upon
Speaker 1: the neighborhood that's Upper Manhattan. So I don't know, is
Speaker 1: that Harlem hundred seconds? That might? I feel like it
Speaker 1: was different. I'm not sure it was. Yeah, I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know that it's still there. I believe it
Speaker 1: or not. I don't know. I don't know the same building.
Speaker 1: It looks like kind of an old bill New York,
Speaker 1: New York this recording, who knows in you know, three weeks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: back to istor. So he had a small laundry, uh,
Speaker 1: and it was one of those ground floor things in
Speaker 1: the department buildings. So he had an apartment that was
Speaker 1: right there attached to. So it was like like everything
Speaker 1: in Portland right now where it's just like retail on
Speaker 1: the bottom and the apartments on the top. Yeah, kind
Speaker 1: of like that. Yeah, typical condensed Yeah, yeah, I density stuff,
Speaker 1: but urban dwelling. But to his apartment was on the
Speaker 1: ground floor, attached to Yeah, I believe it was on
Speaker 1: the ground floor when there was there was an exit,
Speaker 1: there was a door connecting the business in the apartment,
Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah. And it was a laundry like people
Speaker 1: would It wasn't like a laundry mat. It was like
Speaker 1: a dry cleaning kind of that kind of thing where
Speaker 1: people stuff drop, drop the stuff off. And that was
Speaker 1: more typical in the in the you know, early nineteen
Speaker 1: hundreds where the clothes were hard to wash. Well, that's
Speaker 1: typical anywhere that isn't a Western civilization or Western country
Speaker 1: where we have washers and dryers that we keep in
Speaker 1: our homes are in some place. I mean, you go
Speaker 1: to anywhere outside of the first world, and it's some
Speaker 1: place where everybody takes their stuff and somebody watched. And
Speaker 1: some places I've gone to actually people just take their
Speaker 1: stuff down to the river and wash it down there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I went to places where they were they were thrown
Speaker 1: all by laundry in a machine and hanging it on
Speaker 1: showed up like that's my drawers can have those In
Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, you guys probably know this is
Speaker 1: my little tiny tangent. But the way that they made closes.
Speaker 1: You know, everything had detachable collars and cuffs for the
Speaker 1: dirty and so you could hand wash those. They were
Speaker 1: really easy to hand wash at home. And then you
Speaker 1: would have to take your shirt every two weeks, your
Speaker 1: pants every two or whatever you know, to be actually cleaned.
Speaker 1: And so you know that the sink in your house
Speaker 1: was not big enough to hold that garment while wet.
Speaker 1: You could hold the cuff in the collar, but that
Speaker 1: was it. And your little armpit pads, because they do
Speaker 1: have that, I mean dress dress pads and stuff like
Speaker 1: I was wondering what for me after two weeks of
Speaker 1: wearing a shirt, what the arm pits would look like. Well, also,
Speaker 1: things just were smellier back people were diffused to it.
Speaker 1: But you also didn't throw your stuff in a dirty hamper.
Speaker 1: You hung it. That was the thing is if you
Speaker 1: hang sweaty clothes, a little vodka spray on those. They're
Speaker 1: great vodka sp If you mix vodka and water together
Speaker 1: and spray your clothes, it will totally deodorize. To waste
Speaker 1: a good vodka. No, you just think you buy the bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're anyway. I'm sorry. I just like clothes. I don't
Speaker 1: want to. Yeah, I know you do, but you've learned
Speaker 1: a lot more that you wanted to know about laundry.
Speaker 1: But back to our murder here. It was a night
Speaker 1: of Saturday in March ninth, is it our think, made
Speaker 1: a few laundry deliveries, and then he went home for
Speaker 1: the night. I think it was around nine or ten,
Speaker 1: locked himself in because he was a cautious type, if
Speaker 1: not even a little bit paranoid. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: he did live in a fairly crime ridden neighborhood. Robbery
Speaker 1: was pretty common, so his behavior wasn't crazy tintfoil out
Speaker 1: there or anything like that. And then his laundry itself,
Speaker 1: you know, and his apartment. I have no idea how
Speaker 1: big they were. I assumed they were pretty small. I
Speaker 1: think they The sense I had was that they were
Speaker 1: comparable sizes to each other. Yeah, you know, but it
Speaker 1: was like a half and half space. But I but
Speaker 1: it seems like a like a maybe max one bedroom more.
Speaker 1: But that's the thing that I've never understood is like
Speaker 1: square footage. I've never seen anything that said it was
Speaker 1: a hundred were foot and a hundred square foot or
Speaker 1: five hundred and five. And I'm making these numbers out well,
Speaker 1: all I can assume is all I from what I
Speaker 1: know about current New York living situations. That can't have
Speaker 1: been bigger the most New York apartments these days. And
Speaker 1: would you say, would you say an easy average number
Speaker 1: is five hundred square foot business? And this speculations, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's a problem a lot of Yeah, the and I
Speaker 1: think it was doing some of the work in his
Speaker 1: apartment to you would problem if it was open, which
Speaker 1: is also a question for me. Where they bisected so
Speaker 1: that the business portion was separated from the living portion
Speaker 1: or was it one open space and there was snow division.
Speaker 1: I believe they were separated like by a door or
Speaker 1: something like that. I got the impression of like, you know,
Speaker 1: motel rooms that connect with a door kind of like
Speaker 1: you know, but other than that, you know, that's uh,
Speaker 1: there's not enough information out there for a story that's
Speaker 1: been written about as much as this one has specifics
Speaker 1: like that are possible to come by. I did some
Speaker 1: looking special looking just to see if anybody had ever
Speaker 1: written a book about this or anything like that I
Speaker 1: could find. I couldn't find anything. And there were some
Speaker 1: New York Times articles about it. I tried to find
Speaker 1: some of those. They're not available on the eater webs unfortunately.
Speaker 1: So you know, there's just no I'd love to see
Speaker 1: some drawings and more pictures and stuff like that, but
Speaker 1: any kind of measurements of any kind would be really helpful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I don't know. So so, so can you explain,
Speaker 1: I mean, now getting getting away from that bit of tangent,
Speaker 1: which is my fault, but because I brought it up
Speaker 1: before the recording, But like, what were the kind of
Speaker 1: precautions that kind of semi paranoid level. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know if this was you know, ultra paranoid even, but
Speaker 1: he had apparently had extra bolts on his doors and
Speaker 1: his windows were nailed shut, and I'm not sure what
Speaker 1: that means. Okay, yeah, I was gonna ask, like nailed hut,
Speaker 1: Like you know, like you know, you have a couple
Speaker 1: of nails in to hold the door or to hold
Speaker 1: the window panes closed, or you've like nailed over. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think nailed shut is in what I think it
Speaker 1: probably was. I mean, you know, it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: he could it could have meant that he took a
Speaker 1: hammer and nails and actually just wanged away until he
Speaker 1: had nails driven into his windows and they were never
Speaker 1: open again. But more likely, it's really common, and it's
Speaker 1: even in my house. I've got this with my wooden
Speaker 1: double doubles hung windows. If you drill a hole through
Speaker 1: the wood and then you put a long nail in
Speaker 1: there so that people can't open it from the outside,
Speaker 1: it's a block. Yeah. Yeah, it's extra security advice. Similarly
Speaker 1: with people, yeah, with like sliding doors where people put
Speaker 1: the piece of wood, Yeah, exactly, so that you can't
Speaker 1: open it's like that, right, Yeah, exactly, That's what I
Speaker 1: would also assume. But sometimes, you know, somebody says nailed shut,
Speaker 1: and I think they've totally boarded up their windows. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or they've nailed six hundred nails and bent them all
Speaker 1: over sideways because yeah, yeah, and so I think in
Speaker 1: this case he probably just drilled holes, but he might
Speaker 1: have driven a nail or two in there too. Mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's one way to do it, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it settles the issue permanently so well, except for
Speaker 1: a few women have single pane windows are pretty easy
Speaker 1: to break in, but you know, whatever, good point, But
Speaker 1: then people gotta like, you know, they gotta break through
Speaker 1: the window, and then because they can't reach in and
Speaker 1: unlatch it and slide the window up, and they have
Speaker 1: to crawl through an open broken glass. And if you're
Speaker 1: not panel windows situation, that's even because because because here's
Speaker 1: the thing is that having a single pane of glass,
Speaker 1: a big pane of glass, if you can pop a
Speaker 1: hole in it, you can kind of quietly break bits
Speaker 1: of that glass away once you've got a hole in it.
Speaker 1: But if it's got the wooden lattice in it, you
Speaker 1: know where it's sheet becomes six panels. Now you've got
Speaker 1: to break the wood away, and that's a lot more effort,
Speaker 1: a lot more obviously, a lot louder. So I say
Speaker 1: windows were divided. I just always assumed that, like, you know,
Speaker 1: these guys that we're sitting next to you, single pane, huge,
Speaker 1: huge sheet, it's probably, yeah, probably that would be the
Speaker 1: cheapest way. You know, probably this was cheap housing. Probably
Speaker 1: as far as as far as stealths goes, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I uh, I don't think burglars these days, at least,
Speaker 1: they don't really bother to try to be stealthy if
Speaker 1: they just kick your door down. But he just assumed that,
Speaker 1: I mean, usually the case a place, right, they just
Speaker 1: decide if you're not home, it doesn't matter. Yeah, they're
Speaker 1: gonna break in and they're gonna take yeah. So yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: but okay, so sorry. So yeah, he's got the extra bolts.
Speaker 1: And there's no information really about what kind of bolts
Speaker 1: he had in his door, where they key operated dead
Speaker 1: bolts orhere they just sliders, sliders. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think they might have been sliders, although we'll get
Speaker 1: more into that second here. But so's he's home for
Speaker 1: the night, locked in and everything, and about ten thirty pm,
Speaker 1: his neighbor, a woman named Mrs Locklin Smith, heard sounds
Speaker 1: of a scuffle as in fighting, uh and and in
Speaker 1: a kind of a thud, but no gunshots. She ran
Speaker 1: out to find a policeman and brings a patrol woman back.
Speaker 1: His name was apparently Albert Captain Vane or Captain Born,
Speaker 1: depending on the Virgin he read. He comes back to
Speaker 1: the building and he bangs in the door, gets no
Speaker 1: answer from Mr Fink. Uh, And I started trying the doors.
Speaker 1: If there were at least two doors in the apartment.
Speaker 1: I think there was one in the hall, maybe one
Speaker 1: in the laundry. I'm not sure that was the impression
Speaker 1: or maybe. Yeah, And so he tried how he got
Speaker 1: into the laundry and not I'm not sure about that either. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but apparently there was there was at least well, obviously
Speaker 1: there's at least one door. But I most of the
Speaker 1: reversions said there were two doors into the apartment, but
Speaker 1: the doors were locked from the inside. The windows, as
Speaker 1: I said, nailed shut. Uh and the windows reportedly were
Speaker 1: not broken also, but they're the only thing that was opened.
Speaker 1: There was a transom window above the front door. You
Speaker 1: know what a transom window is, right, I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: you need to explain that for folks. Yeah, old and
Speaker 1: older buildings in some houses and stuff, there's like a
Speaker 1: doorway and then a whole separate frame window above the door.
Speaker 1: That's just the same with nine. Yeah, it's just right
Speaker 1: over the depending on the heights the door. Yeah, doors
Speaker 1: are usually six seven ft high, so yeah, they're usually like, yeah,
Speaker 1: seven I think about seven ft yeah, typically what the
Speaker 1: door is. And so there they're the same width typically
Speaker 1: as the door, but they're not very high. They're kind
Speaker 1: of like, you know, not not terribly high, and they're
Speaker 1: usually usually are hinged like in the middle. So it's
Speaker 1: a frame. It's a it's a wood frame with glass
Speaker 1: in it and hinged in the middle so it can
Speaker 1: be rotated, and the whole idea is just to provide ventilation.
Speaker 1: You have un doubted you as you know what this is.
Speaker 1: Even if you don't think you know what this is.
Speaker 1: You know what this window is. You've seen it mostly
Speaker 1: like older hotels and things like that, they don't think
Speaker 1: it's a It's a window that is hinged along it's
Speaker 1: horizontal center line, and it typically pivots in towards the
Speaker 1: room that it is opening up into and out towards
Speaker 1: the space where if you're outside of the spooks looking
Speaker 1: at so that the hot air on the outside the
Speaker 1: inside of the room can float out along the roof
Speaker 1: or the ceiling and cooler air can then because it's
Speaker 1: it's for ventilation. Yeah, it totally is. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: so you had one of those, uh, and it was
Speaker 1: not open at least on the latch. Apparently kind of
Speaker 1: a lapse on is the doors part. But you know,
Speaker 1: maybe it's kind of high and besides what, she probably
Speaker 1: didn't think burglars were likely to come into it because frankly,
Speaker 1: an adult couldn't fit through this window. Speaking of adults,
Speaker 1: as I said, the windows, the windows were nailed shut,
Speaker 1: doors were locked, but the trans and window was open.
Speaker 1: So opposite Captain Bain, apparently some people, you know, this
Speaker 1: is like back in the day, people didn't have internet
Speaker 1: or TV, and so when anything looked like it was happening,
Speaker 1: people would immediately Yeah, I started rubber necking. So he
Speaker 1: founds in the crowd. In the crowd, he finds a
Speaker 1: small boy and boost them up and threw the transom opening.
Speaker 1: So the kick and dropped on the other side and
Speaker 1: unbolted door and let him and let him in. But
Speaker 1: it had to be a right, So that's important. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the kid was because it's a very small opening. I know,
Speaker 1: no adult could fit through. I couldn't even I'm a
Speaker 1: little Maybe could if you really try, I'd have to
Speaker 1: lose some weight. Yeah, there'd be some contortion. Yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: so realistically, it couldn't be a normal size of human.
Speaker 1: And I'm a small, normal size, small human. No, yeah,
Speaker 1: you are small, but yeah, definitely it's a kid thing
Speaker 1: or extremely emaciated adults existing. Yeah, So the kid goes
Speaker 1: in and unlocks the door, the police come in, come in,
Speaker 1: and then and they find Isador Fink laying on the
Speaker 1: floor dead. Three gunshot wounds, one of which was in
Speaker 1: his left wrist or hand depending on the version of read.
Speaker 1: But this one had and this one had powder burns
Speaker 1: on it. So a close range shot, like maybe even
Speaker 1: a contact shot. So like, yeah, and we've talked about
Speaker 1: this before, but to get that kind of powder burn
Speaker 1: the gun has to be ballpark about half of float away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's got to be super duper close for the powder
Speaker 1: to actually be hot enough to burn the skin as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and at a little bit more distance, even I have
Speaker 1: a couple of feet, you'll get particles of gunpowder like,
Speaker 1: but it won't be a burn yeah, but yeah, but
Speaker 1: if you want to so this was this was my
Speaker 1: possibly even a contact yeah right, like a yea almost
Speaker 1: suggests maybe a struggle that does hand. Hand wounds generally do, right,
Speaker 1: they usually are defensive nature. So yeah, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: please don't shoot peas. But you know, and I guess,
Speaker 1: I mean, depending on the gun, maybe that'll stop it,
Speaker 1: it won't. Martha Wayne scenario Yeah of Martha Wayne for batman. Okay,
Speaker 1: oh that's right, I'm there. Yeah, thank you? Who never
Speaker 1: heard of such a thing? A man that is a bat? Yeah,
Speaker 1: flies around at night with echo location. Saw the best
Speaker 1: comic today, which was Young Bruce Wayne falls down the
Speaker 1: well hole that he falls down, but instead of a
Speaker 1: horde of bats, it's a horde of rats. Then twenty
Speaker 1: years later, it's rat man sitting on a precipice in
Speaker 1: a building, just looking miserable. And you've seen that, You've
Speaker 1: seen the man bat man one right, where it actually
Speaker 1: a bat who's choosing to be a man, who's actually
Speaker 1: man bat. I like it, sorry, sorry, but part of
Speaker 1: the way yeah, yeah, yeah, back, we've got a bullet
Speaker 1: hole in his hand with burn marks. Yeah, with burn
Speaker 1: marks and then two in his chest, which apparently caught
Speaker 1: in the medical medical examiner should have killed him instantly
Speaker 1: and probably did kill him instant. So likely the hand
Speaker 1: was first, Yeah, when the chest was second. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: not much point in shooting somebody did and then shooting
Speaker 1: in the hand too, you know, right, or you wanted
Speaker 1: to appear as though there was a struggle or it's
Speaker 1: And it's also conceivable, depending on the kind of gun
Speaker 1: that was used, maybe he only fired two shots and
Speaker 1: one world the hand was over the chest, hand into
Speaker 1: the chest. But but so do we know which side
Speaker 1: of the hand the burns were on. Yeah, See, that's frustrating,
Speaker 1: like freaking details of the story that killed me. That's
Speaker 1: an important one, right, If if the hand was over
Speaker 1: the chest, it'd be on the outside, just for people
Speaker 1: who are having arts and visually thin things. But if
Speaker 1: it was a defensive yeah, yeah, I know, it would
Speaker 1: be good to know, and maybe someday I want to know.
Speaker 1: Next time I'm back in New York, I'm going to
Speaker 1: go to the NYPD and demand the records. Listen, I was.
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time in the New York
Speaker 1: Times archives, very upset because there was so many articles
Speaker 1: that looked like they might be related not but yeah,
Speaker 1: not quite well no, No, The problem is I couldn't
Speaker 1: read the articles because it turns out from the late
Speaker 1: eighteen nineties to anyone are free to read anything after
Speaker 1: that requires a membership, which is paid and is at
Speaker 1: an exorbitant amount of money. And I was very mad
Speaker 1: because I kept having these threads and then I couldn't
Speaker 1: ever get in there to confident that somebody we know
Speaker 1: has a membership, So we should, I hope so, and
Speaker 1: if they do, they need to find it and send
Speaker 1: it to us. So. But so the windows were closed
Speaker 1: and locked, and the door was locked, and the only
Speaker 1: thing that was open was that that one tiny little
Speaker 1: window window. So that the initial conclusion, obviously that you
Speaker 1: would draw is he killed himself. No, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I don't know anybody who shoots themselves in the hands
Speaker 1: always an obviously conclusion. But yeah, I mean if there's
Speaker 1: no yeah, it could there's no gun that that that
Speaker 1: screws the whole thing up. There's no gun. Speaking of
Speaker 1: shooting yourself in the hand, I I think I once
Speaker 1: who had shot himself accidentally through the hand and then
Speaker 1: shot himself twice in the chest. No, he didn't do that.
Speaker 1: It was an I'm not saying, screwed up and shot
Speaker 1: himself in the hand and then okay, so it doesn't matter,
Speaker 1: I'm going to kill myself anyway back. But also like,
Speaker 1: maybe this is off topic, maybe this is going too fast,
Speaker 1: but I just who you don't I don't know the
Speaker 1: statistics behind this, but I feel like most people who
Speaker 1: would try to kill themselves with the gun don't shoot
Speaker 1: themselves in the chest. Yeah, that's an awkward I mean,
Speaker 1: we've actually had this conversation before. It is a very
Speaker 1: difficult and awkward angle. But more than that, you would
Speaker 1: usual people who do it don't usually use their trigger finger.
Speaker 1: They use their thumb because they have to backwards face.
Speaker 1: But even more than that, the gun would be right there.
Speaker 1: So well that's the problem. That's a gun murderer. But
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's looking like murder. But then that that
Speaker 1: opens up another can of worms. Looking around the apartment,
Speaker 1: there was nothing missing except for his Maltese sculpture. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's that real at the Maltese. Yeah, of course it's real.
Speaker 1: What they made a movie about it. I'm just but
Speaker 1: but what did you really have a Maltese He did not.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I just want to be very clear. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's just I'm just joking. Yeah, I know it would
Speaker 1: be great, that it would be amazing, I know, but now, uh,
Speaker 1: you never know, maybe there was something like that in
Speaker 1: there that got taken. I don't know. Yeah, it didn't
Speaker 1: seem like he had a lot of close personal friends
Speaker 1: or connections that would be able to really vouch for.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the police that it didn't seem
Speaker 1: like anything was missing, but like, how do they know,
Speaker 1: I mean dust marks. Usually if you don't know what
Speaker 1: is in the house originally, you don't know what he's missing.
Speaker 1: Could be hard. It's hard to say, you know, because
Speaker 1: he had a painting on the wall for ten years
Speaker 1: and there's that till ring around it. Yeah. In this case,
Speaker 1: they concluded robbery wasn't the motive because he had money
Speaker 1: in his pockets and also he had a cash drawer
Speaker 1: that for the laundry that had cash in it. So
Speaker 1: they concluded that robbery was not the motive. Although on
Speaker 1: the other hand, you know, on he knows, but so
Speaker 1: they ruled out robbery um and they found no fingerprints
Speaker 1: on the cri crency, except for isidor thinks uh he
Speaker 1: uh typically didn't let people in that he didn't know
Speaker 1: because he was security conscious. The room was not all
Speaker 1: that's a political term, that's a politically correct term from
Speaker 1: what he was. Yeah, a little paranoid, but well else
Speaker 1: the room was not all torn up from a struggle
Speaker 1: or anything like that. So there wasn't a huge thing.
Speaker 1: But his iron had been left on. He was apparently
Speaker 1: doing some late night ironing and for his business. Hard
Speaker 1: working guy, and so his iron was turned on sitting
Speaker 1: on the ironing board. Question, Yeah, was it an electric
Speaker 1: iron iron? It was a gas iron, and I don't
Speaker 1: know how that works, So that's that's what I had.
Speaker 1: One place I read it was a gas so it
Speaker 1: wasn't like one of the old time ones that you
Speaker 1: would heat over front of plane. I presumed that that's
Speaker 1: what they meant by a gas iron stove. And it
Speaker 1: was an o steel iron all And then he ended
Speaker 1: up and then that's probably that's what. I don't know
Speaker 1: one that came out with electric I do not believe
Speaker 1: that there was ever such a thing as a gas iron.
Speaker 1: I believe that it is what Devon is saying that's
Speaker 1: what I would think, which also I don't think so.
Speaker 1: But that also that also takes credit away from the
Speaker 1: statements about how long that gas iron was out because
Speaker 1: we don't know how hot that device was when he
Speaker 1: used it. Well, a gas iron won't scorch fabric. It'll
Speaker 1: score the time that it is the hottest. Sorry, I know,
Speaker 1: I'm jumping ahead a little bit because the next thing, well,
Speaker 1: the next thing you were going to say, I know
Speaker 1: because of your script, was that you know, but iron
Speaker 1: had not had time to scorch the fabric, right, So
Speaker 1: that was supposed to set a timeline. And I'm about
Speaker 1: to do some googling. But if it is the kind
Speaker 1: of old time iron that we're talking about, where you
Speaker 1: set it on a heat source and then you put it,
Speaker 1: the time that it it is most likely to scorch
Speaker 1: the fabric is when you first because that's cool. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so even if it's sat on there for a
Speaker 1: long period of time without moving, it's going to continue
Speaker 1: to cool. It's not going to eventually scorch. It will
Speaker 1: starch immediately or not at all. That's where electric irons
Speaker 1: burned things because they are continually at a consistent temperature yeah, temperature.
Speaker 1: That's in my case, it is always too hot because
Speaker 1: it messes up everything I have. But I don't know
Speaker 1: why you do that. It's easy shirts. Yeah, and your socks, Man,
Speaker 1: socks don't need a crease. There are people do that.
Speaker 1: I met a guy wants to obviously ironed his blue
Speaker 1: jeans because he had a nice sharp crease and down
Speaker 1: the front of his blue jeans. Have I not ever
Speaker 1: talked about the cowboys that I used to hang out
Speaker 1: with that had that. That was a thing in the nineties,
Speaker 1: was your wranglers had to have a create a seam
Speaker 1: in the front. And there were guys that you could
Speaker 1: tell those paths had been ironed a hundred times and
Speaker 1: could never ever be ironed again, and they would still
Speaker 1: have a hard ridge down the front. Yeah. No, And
Speaker 1: it's a thing. Okay, I guess it was a thing.
Speaker 1: It's a fashion thing. I don't get that. Devon might,
Speaker 1: but I don't know that shows you ignant. I am okay, alright,
Speaker 1: So anyway, but enough about the iron But you know,
Speaker 1: it looks like though he was still doing some work.
Speaker 1: He's doing some work. He's interrupted, he's killed. But robbery
Speaker 1: or burglary was not the motive, and so police were
Speaker 1: puzzled about this. They talked to everybody he knew, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, the customers and neighbors and stuff like that. Um,
Speaker 1: and he had no known enemies as far as anybody knew.
Speaker 1: And of course, as I always said, we tell it,
Speaker 1: we really don't know that nothing was taken. I mean,
Speaker 1: there might have been something really valuable in there, and
Speaker 1: so it was maybe it's something so valuable the killer
Speaker 1: grabbed it and didn't bother looking for anything else to take.
Speaker 1: But uh, there's another story that we're going to be
Speaker 1: covering soon that I have the same question, which is
Speaker 1: the perpetrated or may have found the initial stash or
Speaker 1: a stash of many and thinking I found the treasure trove,
Speaker 1: booked it but didn't get all of the treasure because
Speaker 1: they left too soon. That's why. That's why when you're
Speaker 1: hiding your treasure, your cash, whatever, you don't put it
Speaker 1: all in one place. Yeah, you know, you don't want
Speaker 1: to do that. Too many eggs in one basket exactly.
Speaker 1: But of course, Uh, the one thing they found out
Speaker 1: from talking to everybody is that they said, especially as customers,
Speaker 1: they said he'd been a little paranoid for about the
Speaker 1: past year. He said he kept his door locked even
Speaker 1: during business hours. Uh, and he would only let people
Speaker 1: in that he recognized. And he told that it can't
Speaker 1: be conducive to a profitable business. Well, it's kind of
Speaker 1: annoying for your customers to have to stand out there
Speaker 1: knocking on the door, and especially if it's raining. But
Speaker 1: well even if they're in the apartment hallway, but if
Speaker 1: it's somebody he doesn't know what he's like, I'm not
Speaker 1: taking your clothes, dude. I've been living down the street
Speaker 1: for a month and I've never come here. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to give you business. I don't know. You go away.
Speaker 1: I mean, on the other hand, like there are plenty
Speaker 1: of business, especially one like this that he could have
Speaker 1: been on his capacity, He could have been literally washing
Speaker 1: as many clothes as he possibly could and said like, listen,
Speaker 1: I have my repeat customers. I'm making a fine living,
Speaker 1: I you know. And also I'm terrified and paranoid and whatever.
Speaker 1: So I am just only going to let people that
Speaker 1: I recognize in. And that's that, you know, that's certainly,
Speaker 1: that's that's possibly or or it is possible that something
Speaker 1: happened within the past year to cause this change of behavior.
Speaker 1: There was nobody, nobody, as far as I knew, reported
Speaker 1: that he had been robbed or assaulted. He would have
Speaker 1: to have reported that, but yeah, that's true to somebody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he didn't say anything anybody about that though, but you know,
Speaker 1: who knows. Maybe somebody was out to get him. I
Speaker 1: mean maybe like maybe, like said, maybe he did actually
Speaker 1: find a Maltese falcon in a flea market or something
Speaker 1: like that, and he had and he was really paranoid
Speaker 1: about it. He could or maybe maybe he found the
Speaker 1: gas operated iron that Devon just found on the internet
Speaker 1: waved at it. Ye that actually exists. Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: like the future is coming for me gas iron. I
Speaker 1: mean he could have also this, It happens plenty, that
Speaker 1: he could have had a mental health breakdown that you know,
Speaker 1: he could have already been which is a little paranoid,
Speaker 1: and that he just had some sort of breakdown that
Speaker 1: was maybe triggered by something but also maybe triggered but nothing,
Speaker 1: and that he just suddenly became a very paranoid human
Speaker 1: being because his mental health had deteriorated. But a certain yeah,
Speaker 1: that's which happens. Yeah, actually, uh, and so it could
Speaker 1: have been that. It could have been that it really
Speaker 1: was maybe he heard about some robberies and that's sort
Speaker 1: of scared him. Or maybe there were neighborhood monsters that
Speaker 1: were offering a protection and he wasn't paying them money
Speaker 1: for protection, you know, and they don't like it when
Speaker 1: you don't like their protection. Now they don't. Maybe he
Speaker 1: had had his first running with an insurance salesman. Well,
Speaker 1: sure had a nice laundromat. You've got here to be
Speaker 1: a shame of something happened to it. This burned down
Speaker 1: with that gas power all the way, yeah, with you
Speaker 1: in it, yea, and no financial compensation. Why would I
Speaker 1: wanted if I'm dead, never mind just passed, You would,
Speaker 1: wouldn't you? Yeah? Well, yeah, that's the way it worked
Speaker 1: in those days and probably still doesn't many parts of
Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, that's how Triple A has been around
Speaker 1: this long. But the whole big trick with that thing,
Speaker 1: right is that like okay, like, yes, it would be
Speaker 1: cool to know who did it and why, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: the how is bigger? Right? Yeah? How do Yeah? That's
Speaker 1: actually the larger question that nobody really cares about, about,
Speaker 1: which is unfortunate. Certainly, you know, nobody cares about like
Speaker 1: who killed him, how the killer did it? Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: That's just what I wanted out to. It's like, like
Speaker 1: I said, total lockdoor mystery. Which was the thing we
Speaker 1: talked about with the with the Wallace was they were like, well,
Speaker 1: we're pretty sure that she did it, and we don't
Speaker 1: really care about why or if she actually did. We
Speaker 1: just care that she tells us how well. There was
Speaker 1: the same thing with Joe said blows, because they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: no he did It's fine. Side everyone was like, we
Speaker 1: don't really care why, just how so help us understand
Speaker 1: some of the scenario that they find Joe. So well,
Speaker 1: that's what we got here. Um. We got the doors
Speaker 1: and windows secured from the inside. The windows of course
Speaker 1: with nails. The doors were bolted, which, as we mentioned,
Speaker 1: could be a steel bar just to slide into position,
Speaker 1: kind of kind of bolts with no key. It could
Speaker 1: also be a dead bull with a key, yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: dead bull or not even even not a key operated
Speaker 1: one won't just a little handle on the inside, or
Speaker 1: you could have had a regular old door lock. And
Speaker 1: you guys have probably all seen these. I've got him
Speaker 1: in my house. That kind of had to play with.
Speaker 1: At the top there's a knob and then below that
Speaker 1: there's a keyhole that's shaped like a keyhole. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what it's called keyhole exactly. And you stick your
Speaker 1: old fashioned key in there to locker unlock it, and
Speaker 1: want to to lock it. You close the door night
Speaker 1: and you stick a key in their turn at three
Speaker 1: sixty yeah, during a three sixty degrees, and then pull
Speaker 1: it back out and the door is locked. He's throwing
Speaker 1: the dead bolt, right. But a lot of people in
Speaker 1: those days would leave the key in because the keyhole
Speaker 1: goes all the way through people, so people can peek
Speaker 1: through it. And some some plates would have a swing
Speaker 1: plate that would cover the keyhole for privacy, but that
Speaker 1: was an additional cost, so very few had that. And
Speaker 1: another thing too, is that is that those old fashioned
Speaker 1: locks actually were not that incredibly hard to pick. So
Speaker 1: that's another thing. There's a reason that a skeleton key
Speaker 1: is called skeleton key, and it's that many of the
Speaker 1: keys worked. Yeah, you can kind of buy a yeah,
Speaker 1: and it probably kind of works for most I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, they like three tumblers or something. It's super easy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were easy to pick and so, so the idea
Speaker 1: for those of you wondering, I'm sorry, just to interrupt
Speaker 1: with those of you wondering, Joe has other locks on
Speaker 1: his door. Now, yeah, you can't just break into his house,
Speaker 1: you can't. Those are just internal but the not the
Speaker 1: exterior ones. But yeah, So, so when you want to
Speaker 1: lock up a night in this case, what you do
Speaker 1: is you turn it three sixty degrees, but instead of
Speaker 1: pulling it out, you turn about another ninety degrees. Yeah,
Speaker 1: right there, and just leave the key and it locks
Speaker 1: it in place. The the teeth are now barred. Somebody
Speaker 1: can't just push it out from the other side right there,
Speaker 1: lodged against the interior of the frame of the locking mechanism,
Speaker 1: which stops him from just being pushed out. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so uh, and so it was very common, I think
Speaker 1: probably more often than not people did this. They left
Speaker 1: the key in the lock. Yeah, and so also helps
Speaker 1: you know, you not forget your key when you leave. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's another good point. And it's very hard to
Speaker 1: leave the house if the door is locked with yeah,
Speaker 1: and you've had it in your hand as you walk out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think this is probably what happened because I
Speaker 1: did in one account that I did read that the
Speaker 1: key that the door had been had been locked and
Speaker 1: the key had been left in the lock on the inside.
Speaker 1: But again I'm not adercent. There's so many account thing
Speaker 1: zone in the story, it's difficult to say, I know that,
Speaker 1: Uh so we did. You did say that there were
Speaker 1: extra bolts on the door. I believe there was at
Speaker 1: least yeah. And whether that was the true like slide
Speaker 1: or a bar drop in U shaped blocks for a
Speaker 1: bolt like you see the old uh the castle door blocks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, they could could be a lot of things
Speaker 1: in the reporting. Yeah, and so I don't think it
Speaker 1: was anything quite that elaborate. It could have. That's a
Speaker 1: very elaborate that's a really simple, pretty simple. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a good point. It's simple. But there have been I mean,
Speaker 1: you can look up on YouTube. Even there are ways
Speaker 1: to pick those skeleton key lots with the lock with
Speaker 1: the keys in them, or to relock the door from
Speaker 1: the exterior. Harder to do with a slide bolt. So
Speaker 1: that's why the dropping bars, right, And so that's why
Speaker 1: I'm just bringing that up as that it was a
Speaker 1: slide bolt that probably had to be locked from the inside.
Speaker 1: It probably was. And the reason I would say that
Speaker 1: because the police spent a lot of time thinking about this,
Speaker 1: so they probably would have thought of just, you know,
Speaker 1: all the permutations about this. The police, like I said,
Speaker 1: they were, they investigated this and then went over it
Speaker 1: very thoroughly, and the best they could come up with
Speaker 1: is that somebody the murderer was somebody very small, thin
Speaker 1: and very agile shot who shot Fank and somehow crawled
Speaker 1: out through the trans and window, you know. And their
Speaker 1: support for that was that one of the one of
Speaker 1: the hinges on the trans and was broken, so maybe
Speaker 1: somebody forced his way through that window. But it also
Speaker 1: sounds like he didn't live in the most well maintained space. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's that's true too, or or it could be too.
Speaker 1: Let's not forget the policeman did boost a kid up
Speaker 1: and shove them through the trans and window. But worth
Speaker 1: mentioning that. And we don't know what the kid did,
Speaker 1: you know, as soon as they dropped in, but the
Speaker 1: gold coins he found on the ground and then well
Speaker 1: or if there was like a chair or something, But
Speaker 1: you wouldn't need some kind of boosting macca is m Yeah,
Speaker 1: would that would have probably still been sitting. Would it
Speaker 1: would be, So it's convenient. There's a chair right here,
Speaker 1: I'll just jump onto that. Kids are dumb, you know,
Speaker 1: you dropped right onto the chair and then kid, they
Speaker 1: don't know what to look for or what to think about.
Speaker 1: Recording in their memory. Yeah, I don't even know. If
Speaker 1: this kid was twelve, twelve years old, would have been
Speaker 1: too big to fit through this trans and window. There
Speaker 1: was some suggestion that maybe the killer fired through the
Speaker 1: trans and window itself. So he gets out of the
Speaker 1: killer sneaks up on in Fink's department, bringing a chair
Speaker 1: with him or something like a ladder or a ladder
Speaker 1: or something or a crate down standing ladder killer and
Speaker 1: that shoots down through the trans and and kills Fink.
Speaker 1: There was a problem with that, and the corner said
Speaker 1: that the angle of the bullet wounds. It appeared that
Speaker 1: the killer was standing face to face and at the
Speaker 1: same level, and there burns and they're also on the
Speaker 1: stand also, so that kind of shot the hell out
Speaker 1: of that and pill pun intended. Yeah, the windows were attacked,
Speaker 1: so he hadn't been shot from outside through a window either,
Speaker 1: And of course they're again that's the whole powder burn
Speaker 1: in the hand thing kind of rules that out too.
Speaker 1: But but another question is is that you know somebody
Speaker 1: somehow shot him and got out of the room, leaving
Speaker 1: it locked from the inside. But the other question I
Speaker 1: have is that why why do you do that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: not why do you kill him? But like, why, yeah,
Speaker 1: why you go to the trouble unless you're maybe like
Speaker 1: some sort of true crime mystery aficionado. Yeah, it could
Speaker 1: have been old enough. Yeah, no, I'm not old enough. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I The only
Speaker 1: reason I can think of is that, other than being
Speaker 1: a true crime aficionado, is that maybe the idea was
Speaker 1: to get the cops so puzzled over that that they'd
Speaker 1: be puzzling over that part of the mystery to forget
Speaker 1: to go out and look for Apparently, I think they
Speaker 1: did look for his killer. They at least talked to
Speaker 1: enough neighs in acquaintances and stuff to try to figure out,
Speaker 1: you know, the usual way you saw murderers, like, well,
Speaker 1: who wanted to kill this guy? That's your murderer? Probably,
Speaker 1: and they did that. They did their due diligence. I
Speaker 1: guess another reason. Another reason I can think of is
Speaker 1: that like, well, you could always say to the jury,
Speaker 1: it's like, do I look like Hoodini? Do I look
Speaker 1: like I gotta fit through that trans and window? Do
Speaker 1: you you know? And maybe you know if you get
Speaker 1: caught from two pound dude, there's no way I could
Speaker 1: have done that. Yeah, so we've got there are some
Speaker 1: theories out there. Believe we had kind of a lot
Speaker 1: of theories, and actually, so we're gonna talk about that,
Speaker 1: but first let's take a break. Hey, guys, For those
Speaker 1: of you who know Joe well, and that's most of you,
Speaker 1: you know, there's only one thing that Joe hates more
Speaker 1: than shopping, and that's shopping for cleaning products. I mean,
Speaker 1: let me tell you, Joe does not like spending time
Speaker 1: in the store or waiting in line or figuring out
Speaker 1: if he got the best deal. But he does care
Speaker 1: about what's being used in his house because the cats,
Speaker 1: which is why he joined Grove Collaborative. Grove sells only
Speaker 1: the best non toxic products and ships them right to
Speaker 1: his door when he wants them. He actually got his
Speaker 1: first box from them last month and it could not
Speaker 1: have been easier. Actually, I also got one, and I
Speaker 1: thought I'd just pick up some natural cleaner to replace
Speaker 1: my wind X and end up with these amazingly cool
Speaker 1: wool dryer balls, and damn, my clothes smell really good
Speaker 1: and they're super static free. I mean, listen to me,
Speaker 1: I'm talking about dryer balls when I should be talking
Speaker 1: about Joe's dryer balls. If you haven't already tried Grove,
Speaker 1: you really should. And all of our listeners who sign
Speaker 1: up get an amazing thirty dollar Mrs Myers gift set
Speaker 1: and a free thirty day v I P membership and
Speaker 1: a bonus gift just for you when you sign up
Speaker 1: and place an order of twenty dollars or more. Check
Speaker 1: out Grove and the thinking Sideways special offer at Grove
Speaker 1: dot co. That's not Calm dot co slash sideways. That's
Speaker 1: Grove dot CEO, not dot com slash sideways. And we're back,
Speaker 1: all right. So our first theory this is actually I
Speaker 1: found this at least one place on the webs, which
Speaker 1: is that this was not actually a big mystery at all.
Speaker 1: It was just basically a common urban legend slash built
Speaker 1: from miss reporting by the media or police in competence.
Speaker 1: The sloppy story turned into a legend. Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: there was one comment I saw, I think it was
Speaker 1: on Reddit that said that the killer probably just had
Speaker 1: a copy of the key, so he just killed him
Speaker 1: and locked the door from the outside when he left,
Speaker 1: which would be pretty easy. He was not actually in
Speaker 1: the door. That yeah, yeah, I can't disagree with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so that makes sense, except that kind of assumes
Speaker 1: that the police were morons, I mean, right, so yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean a little bit. But again, we we are
Speaker 1: admitting one thing here. No, we're admitting one thing here,
Speaker 1: and that is that a small child was sent through
Speaker 1: into the crime scene before anyone else, right, so they
Speaker 1: had to take on faith that small child said yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the door was bolted, and he was law. I mean,
Speaker 1: you could see the key was in the lock or
Speaker 1: it wasn't and whatever, but you know, maybe it was
Speaker 1: locked and you could actually see through to the crime scene.
Speaker 1: But they assumed there was these extra bolts that were
Speaker 1: bolted and the kids said, yeah, I was bolted, of course.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but in those days, I don't think the kid.
Speaker 1: I think the kid was just turned the key and
Speaker 1: unlocked it and left the key in there. I don't
Speaker 1: I don't see why he would have removed it and
Speaker 1: then lie about there being a key in there. No,
Speaker 1: I totally agree with that. Well, it's it's curiosity killed
Speaker 1: the cat. It literally the kid could have got in
Speaker 1: and stood there and pulled the key out and looked
Speaker 1: around for a minute, and then so many things under, hey, kid,
Speaker 1: what's going on? Open up the door, and then when oh, oops,
Speaker 1: kind of opens it up and sorry. And if the
Speaker 1: key is the whole thing, I mean, I'm just saying
Speaker 1: the key is literally the key to the story. It
Speaker 1: had to be there for the key for the kid
Speaker 1: to turn it and unlock it, yes, yeah, or things
Speaker 1: had to be bolted on the other side or whatever.
Speaker 1: But if there was a little bit of misreporting on
Speaker 1: his end where he was like, you know, they opened
Speaker 1: the door and saw the bolts and said, oh, these
Speaker 1: must have all been bolted, but they weren't and it
Speaker 1: was just a key. And there are some other eyes
Speaker 1: we're going to discuss in a minute. There are some
Speaker 1: other ways that you could have locked the door with
Speaker 1: the key from the outside side. I mean, I just
Speaker 1: think I agree grilled the kid pretty pretty well. I'm
Speaker 1: really just playing down here, but I will just say,
Speaker 1: you know, it's long enough ago that there's there could
Speaker 1: be some room for something. Yeah, but I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: they went over it pretty carefully. He would hope they did,
Speaker 1: because they spent some time on this one. Actually the
Speaker 1: police did, so. I I think it's it's probably a
Speaker 1: safe assumption that there was that there really truly was
Speaker 1: some sort of a thrown a bolt that was thrown
Speaker 1: from the inside, or you know, a key in the
Speaker 1: lock on the other side, or something that made them
Speaker 1: believe that, although, like you said, the kid could have
Speaker 1: somehow said something misreported it, but you would think that
Speaker 1: they would have sat him down and really straight in
Speaker 1: that you've gotten that story straightened out. And you would think,
Speaker 1: but again, we don't know how old the kid was,
Speaker 1: you know, and the younger the kid. Oftentimes there's just
Speaker 1: some kind of if a police officer says to them
Speaker 1: and all the bolts were locked, right, and the kid
Speaker 1: would say yes, sir, and that that is also the
Speaker 1: problem is that this was an era where crime scene,
Speaker 1: as we've talked about before, crime scenes weren't protected. Police
Speaker 1: said whatever they wanted to to the news agencies to
Speaker 1: get a buck, and so they could have just started
Speaker 1: saying it was so weird it was completely locked, when
Speaker 1: in fact it wasn't. And there's this and we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about this a zillion times in this story,
Speaker 1: but there is a million scenarios where there's gradations of
Speaker 1: the truth that could have sent it off in another direction.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying all of this to just again be
Speaker 1: the devil out gat I agree, but I think it's
Speaker 1: likely all of this was true. But I think it
Speaker 1: is because, you know, for one thing, I mean, there
Speaker 1: were there are lots of murders in New York City,
Speaker 1: and so why why did they picked this particular one
Speaker 1: to say, oh, it's all locks from the inside, you know,
Speaker 1: when you know, they could have like they could have
Speaker 1: lock mysteries all over New York. There's probably all kinds
Speaker 1: of dead bodies founded apartments that are locked, you know.
Speaker 1: So but it could have been a situation where, I mean,
Speaker 1: we've seen this today where it is a what is
Speaker 1: the turn? It's a firework case, is it? Or think
Speaker 1: he is an immigrant and suddenly there's an immigrant push
Speaker 1: for like people who are like, we're immigrants, we are
Speaker 1: not getting the protection we need in the service we deserve.
Speaker 1: We see this today and what the hell? And suddenly
Speaker 1: he is just he's it's that that that gunpowder story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the powder thank you, it's the powder cake story. And
Speaker 1: so he gets launched and then drops immediately after that.
Speaker 1: But all we're left with is those those hot details.
Speaker 1: And so you're saying that, I'm trying to figure out
Speaker 1: your reasoning here. So he was a Polish immigrant, the
Speaker 1: Polish American community got up in arms, and then so
Speaker 1: the police because the Irish American cops didn't give a
Speaker 1: rip and so that you know, inflammatory gets in the papers,
Speaker 1: but only certain details get saved, or the cops were
Speaker 1: trying to cover their butts, you know, maybe didn't do
Speaker 1: as good a job. Again, this is total speculation. I
Speaker 1: think you guys are thinking, thinking the current modern unfortunate
Speaker 1: media lens. Well, no, yeah, I think I agree, But
Speaker 1: again I'm going to just reiterate again. I'm just kind
Speaker 1: of I'm just saying it to to voice it. But unlikely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's what happened, but but it is
Speaker 1: possible that it is vaguely possible that cops could have said,
Speaker 1: you know, after the fact, well, here's all the reasons
Speaker 1: that we couldn't really figure out what was going on.
Speaker 1: It's just a locked door mystery. It's not a murder mystery.
Speaker 1: And yeah, well, I mean, but again unlikely. It is
Speaker 1: highly unlackily because a lot of murders didn't get solved
Speaker 1: in those days or these days. So that's why we
Speaker 1: have a show. Yeah, and the police actually, uh, considering
Speaker 1: the amount of trouble they went to in this particular case,
Speaker 1: it would be awfully dominant. Just say, hey, did anybody
Speaker 1: ever ask that kid if maybe, you know, maybe it
Speaker 1: wasn't really locked on the inside, you know, and after
Speaker 1: they torn the place apart, you know. But so that's
Speaker 1: one reason I think it probably. But also we've got
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other theories though, well, no, I
Speaker 1: wanted to say one of the thing about that the
Speaker 1: New York Police commissioner at the time, his name was
Speaker 1: Edward mulrooney, who gave an interview on the radio This
Speaker 1: is Pretty TV. So he did a radio whenever about
Speaker 1: two years after the murder and said that the think
Speaker 1: he talked about three cases and that this was one
Speaker 1: of them. He said that he considered it insoluble and
Speaker 1: one of the greatest mysteries of his police career. Of
Speaker 1: the NYPD and since there's probably a lot of unsolved murders,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking that that happened in New York when he
Speaker 1: was during his tenure. I'm thinking the part about it
Speaker 1: that was insoluble was the locker room aspect of the case.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking he probably had aspects access to the files,
Speaker 1: the actual files, and not whatever was reported in the press,
Speaker 1: because that always gets distorted, the mistakes are always made.
Speaker 1: So that's another reason I think this is really truly
Speaker 1: an Austin God lockdoor mystery. I totally agree, not just
Speaker 1: a screw no, so you know, we do that thing
Speaker 1: sometimes I feel like we have to argue the counterpoint,
Speaker 1: but totally yeah, I think it happened. Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: so we got a mystery. Okay, our next sery, our
Speaker 1: next serious suicide. He actually did commit suicide. But of
Speaker 1: course there's a problem with that. No gun, but well,
Speaker 1: the kid was alone in the room for a few moments.
Speaker 1: Maybe the gun was just laying there on the floor,
Speaker 1: and the guns and the kid grabs the gun and
Speaker 1: sticks in his pocket, you know, and so that's possible.
Speaker 1: Of course, you think the police would have grilled him
Speaker 1: pretty hard and actually wrung the truth out of him,
Speaker 1: because unless he squirmed away in the press of people
Speaker 1: that were right there outside the door and just vanished
Speaker 1: and they never saw the kid again, it's possible that
Speaker 1: happens candidate to one of his newsy friends. I don't
Speaker 1: think he would have handed it to one of his
Speaker 1: newsy friends. I think it would have just you know,
Speaker 1: sold us to one of the gang members of the
Speaker 1: local game. But but it's possible. I'm pretty sure they
Speaker 1: probably tracked the kid down and grilled him pretty good
Speaker 1: about you know, stuff like the lock and everything else,
Speaker 1: you know, and did you take the gun? Because they
Speaker 1: must have occurred to somebody that perhaps the kid did
Speaker 1: take the gun. I feel like there are bigger problems
Speaker 1: than just the missing gun. You mean, like the fact
Speaker 1: that he ended his life while Ironingcause everybody loves ironing
Speaker 1: exactly so is iron is on? Yeah? Is that? Is
Speaker 1: that how you want to end your life ironing? I
Speaker 1: mean it's not. But I also I've actually kind of
Speaker 1: wanted to end my life because I like ironing. Yeah
Speaker 1: I do, I really did. I think really sad listen next, No,
Speaker 1: I mean it's you know, it's kind of like picking
Speaker 1: like a scab or something. It's there's just something super
Speaker 1: satisfying about like seeing all those wrinkles and just like
Speaker 1: and they're all gone. But I'm also hearing good. I'm
Speaker 1: also just good at ironing, so it doesn't really that.
Speaker 1: But we've talked about this before a lot of times
Speaker 1: with the theory of suicide, and that suicide is oftentimes
Speaker 1: not a rational thing, right. The bigger problem that I
Speaker 1: have is not the like iron being on or anything
Speaker 1: like that. It's the hole in the hand, well in hand,
Speaker 1: and the shots. That's the bigger problem I have with it.
Speaker 1: Suicide sometimes do shoot themselves more than once. I mean,
Speaker 1: it has happened times, but oftentimes not like in the hand.
Speaker 1: And then again, as we talked about a little bit earlier,
Speaker 1: I feel like, again with no statistics to back this up,
Speaker 1: I just feel like people more often shoot themselves in
Speaker 1: the head much. Yeah, but you it's it's a definitive shot.
Speaker 1: You're much more likely to expire from a head wound
Speaker 1: then you are, some kind of general check, much more
Speaker 1: likely to expire instantly rather than you know, taking a
Speaker 1: long ticktome a while to bleed out. And and remember
Speaker 1: that this is so the kind of gun that he
Speaker 1: would have likely used would not have been some kind
Speaker 1: of semi automatic, but something that had a very exposed trigger.
Speaker 1: And like we talked about, if he has to use
Speaker 1: his thumb right, So if you had to use his
Speaker 1: thumb to pull the trigger, your hand, the web of
Speaker 1: your hand, if not your your pointer finger will get
Speaker 1: up underneath the hammer and get caught. And so there's
Speaker 1: usually obvious signs of damage to your hand from using
Speaker 1: it backwards. It it tends to catch and tear flesh.
Speaker 1: So he should have shown if the emmy had the
Speaker 1: examiner at the time had been looking for that, would
Speaker 1: is it? That's weird. There's some square notches out of
Speaker 1: his pointer finger. Odd. He must have done that with
Speaker 1: an iron Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's that's possible to Yeah, definitely,
Speaker 1: it's an awkward position to shoot a gun in. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's definitely the gun's gonna Of course, it could have
Speaker 1: been some whimpy little thirty two that didn't recoil very
Speaker 1: much too. I don't know. Well, mostly it's just that
Speaker 1: that that trigger, that hammer action flailing in my hand
Speaker 1: at my head. It's the hammer action that is usually
Speaker 1: what catches the webbing of your hand or your people's
Speaker 1: four fingers when especially when they're using a gun backwards
Speaker 1: because they're they're holding it at a weird angle because
Speaker 1: of course there's a slope to the handle. I never
Speaker 1: shot a gun backwards, you know. They taught me that
Speaker 1: in my n R A safety class. If you ever
Speaker 1: held one backwards, though, you can see very easily how
Speaker 1: it would happen. Well, but and here's another question, is
Speaker 1: they made no pretty specific note of the gunpowder burns
Speaker 1: on his hands but not on his chest. And you
Speaker 1: would assume that if he had point blank he would
Speaker 1: that they would, And they have also mentioned likely Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well he may have done one through the hand. The
Speaker 1: odds of him shooting himself twice through the same spot
Speaker 1: in the hand, yeah astronomical. Why would you do that?
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, okay, that didn't work and act
Speaker 1: and match it perfectly with the whole Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. There's too many variables, yeah, now
Speaker 1: there are. No. I don't think that suicide is a
Speaker 1: good one. Another series This is another Another popular one
Speaker 1: is that he was shot in the hallway and ran
Speaker 1: his side through the bowls. I personally have always believed
Speaker 1: this was the answer to the story. This theory. This
Speaker 1: is like because it's unsatisfying, but it's logical, it does
Speaker 1: make some sense. But it was the same thing with
Speaker 1: de la Plaza. I mean, you know, even though the
Speaker 1: police concluded that he must have committed suicide, there was
Speaker 1: blood on the steps outside his apartment, so he was
Speaker 1: obviously stabbed outside and then ran inside locked the door.
Speaker 1: But was there blood outside of this apartment in this case, No,
Speaker 1: there was no blood shot three times or at least twice.
Speaker 1: But this is my my problem with this portion of
Speaker 1: the story, and a lot of this story, is that
Speaker 1: I don't know if the details were recorded that was
Speaker 1: there a blood trail outside because some of the reporting says, well,
Speaker 1: if he was wearing heavy clothing, which we don't know
Speaker 1: what he was wearing, So let's just say he's got
Speaker 1: four wool shirts on at a big trench coat, that
Speaker 1: would soak up the blood while he was falling back
Speaker 1: into his apartment. But we don't know that for sure,
Speaker 1: and so it's it's hard to say. I personally feel
Speaker 1: like it just it makes the most sense that a
Speaker 1: guy it's it's the panic room scenario we've seen this
Speaker 1: a lot of movies where oh God, shut the latch
Speaker 1: and then realized that you've been shot and then fall
Speaker 1: down dead, but nobody can get you because you're already dead.
Speaker 1: So which of his hands was shot? Left one? Okay, well,
Speaker 1: that I guess is less helpful. But but the one
Speaker 1: thing I will say is that chest wounds aside, he
Speaker 1: had a hole in his hand that was shot and bleeding. Right,
Speaker 1: So if he's making his way back into his apartment,
Speaker 1: he's closing and locking the door, there's going to be
Speaker 1: blood on the door. In some capac it's his left
Speaker 1: hand and he is right handed. That is not the case.
Speaker 1: You've never in your life only walked in with your
Speaker 1: right hand, closed the door and locked everything. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: do it all the time. I pushed the door closed
Speaker 1: and then everything and I throw the bolts. I feel
Speaker 1: like there would be some sort of blood. I'm a
Speaker 1: lazy jerk, and I shut the door with my shoulder
Speaker 1: a lot, or I push it with my foot when
Speaker 1: I go in so that I can reach up and
Speaker 1: use my my free hand to rabbit. So can't see this,
Speaker 1: but I've got my hand on my chest, and it's
Speaker 1: my left hand, which is now my bleeding hand, which
Speaker 1: now bleeding into my uh, spongy clothing, which is absorbing
Speaker 1: all of the blood for me very conveniently. I feel
Speaker 1: like at the end of the day, there's some blood
Speaker 1: something even. And also I'm not going to disagree with that.
Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing that you got shot
Speaker 1: in one hand and didn't reach over with his other
Speaker 1: hand and grab the hand and then get blood on it.
Speaker 1: You could have armed pitted it like I'm doing here,
Speaker 1: where he sticks in his armpit and squeezes, so now
Speaker 1: his right hand is still free to operate. But then
Speaker 1: here's the follow up question to that, is, is your
Speaker 1: theory that he was doing some ironing in the house,
Speaker 1: went out into the hallway, got shot, came back in,
Speaker 1: or how otherwise You' not I'm not answering why he
Speaker 1: left his apartment because I cannot answer that. The only
Speaker 1: thing that I'm trying to answer, just like everybody else,
Speaker 1: is how did he get into his apartment and to
Speaker 1: be shot fatally three, you know, once in the hand
Speaker 1: and twice in the chest, And we can't figure it out.
Speaker 1: And so my only thing is that I've always thought, well,
Speaker 1: he did the armpit action you know, one hand up
Speaker 1: under the armpit, squeezed, ran in, slammed the door, locked
Speaker 1: the bolts, fell down, and died. Yeah, but that's all
Speaker 1: I got. Yeah, I know that's it. But but of course,
Speaker 1: but as far as the minutes, okay, as far as
Speaker 1: as far as you weren't supposed to say good oh sorry,
Speaker 1: now I didn't mean that at all. No, I mean,
Speaker 1: but as far as the multi layers, I don't think
Speaker 1: he was wearing multiple layers because he was inside ironing,
Speaker 1: so you're not gonna you know, So I don't think
Speaker 1: that conceivable that he got functioned by some amasily a
Speaker 1: little thirty two bullets and there was not a lot
Speaker 1: of blood. It seems unlikely, especially with the hand one,
Speaker 1: especially the handman. Also, I feel like, emmy pronouncements are
Speaker 1: pretty I mean, they're not full proof certainly, but generally
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm willing to trust the fact if
Speaker 1: they say, like that would have been it all immediately
Speaker 1: like that that is probably was. But even more than that,
Speaker 1: if your theory is like, arn't armpit hand you know, um,
Speaker 1: there was a it was a pretty good description of
Speaker 1: the crime scene. You would think they would have said,
Speaker 1: also there was all this blood all over his other hand,
Speaker 1: his arm, his armpit, whatever. But but the other Okay,
Speaker 1: But my counter that that is in some of the
Speaker 1: information that Joe shared with us ahead of the script
Speaker 1: was the fact that there were emmy accounts where people
Speaker 1: have said that person should have died instantly and instead
Speaker 1: they wandered around for half an hour to an hour
Speaker 1: a lie before keeling over dead. That is typically head wounds.
Speaker 1: So I mean, if you get shot through the heart
Speaker 1: and you're not going to wander around, But he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He wasn't shot through the hardest near as I can tell.
Speaker 1: He was shot in the chest near the heart, and
Speaker 1: they said that should have killed him instantly near the
Speaker 1: heart and the harder prey. Yeah, as long as a
Speaker 1: lot of material between your exterior and your interioring your
Speaker 1: rib cage, in your heart, and things can go very
Speaker 1: very close and cause bleeds that are slower bleeds. I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna say they're slow, but they're slow. I thought
Speaker 1: you were going to be quiet for the next twenty minute.
Speaker 1: You're right, I'll be quite till the next THEERI. How's that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm only two minutes from now. Yeah, I'm only assuming
Speaker 1: that he got shot through the hard or too. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe you know one of the arteries going into the
Speaker 1: harder out of the heart, I should say, or something
Speaker 1: like that. Well, because I mean, there's no other organ
Speaker 1: in your body that's going to cause you to instantly die.
Speaker 1: You get shot to it either long you get shot
Speaker 1: through your long, you'll still live for a little while.
Speaker 1: You can have a totally collapse long and be fine,
Speaker 1: I mean not fine for a long time. I have
Speaker 1: a friend who joined the military with a lung that
Speaker 1: collapsed spontaneously, and they were like, yeah, you're fit for duty.
Speaker 1: Well that's that says something different doctors. But he, I
Speaker 1: mean he was able to function with just sometimes yeah,
Speaker 1: and so he must says the must have found some
Speaker 1: damage to the heart that would have been instantly fable
Speaker 1: for him to say something like that, But I guess
Speaker 1: like more than that, Yeah, I just don't. There's not
Speaker 1: enough evidence exterior too. I mean, there's no real evidence
Speaker 1: interior to the apartment to say what happened. But I
Speaker 1: just feel like there's very little exterior evidence as well too.
Speaker 1: It seems like there should have been some blood at
Speaker 1: least from the hand wound. The found myself. On the hand,
Speaker 1: I bleed pretty profusely from a small cut. Hands bleed
Speaker 1: a lot. There really is a lot of age. You're
Speaker 1: flailing it around and screaming about it. Well, but even
Speaker 1: like a paper cut that I mean, they don't believe
Speaker 1: like they're not throwing blood everywhere, but they are. They
Speaker 1: just like sit there and they believe forever. And it's
Speaker 1: You're like, that's like three layers of skin, how are
Speaker 1: you doing that? But it does. It just bleeds and
Speaker 1: bleeding bleeds, and because again you know, there's a lot
Speaker 1: veins and stuff that you need in there. So it
Speaker 1: just seems like there would have been more evidence. But again,
Speaker 1: that should have been a blood fail. If he ran inside,
Speaker 1: there should have been a blood fail from the door
Speaker 1: to wherever they found his body, because I don't think
Speaker 1: they found him right next to the door. That's the
Speaker 1: bigger part for me, because I am willing to say
Speaker 1: if somebody shot them in the shot him in the hall,
Speaker 1: he ran inside, locked himself in, you go better clean
Speaker 1: this blood up quick, right, Okay, But there's just a
Speaker 1: lot can we think, can we answer? Can we try
Speaker 1: and settle on a description of something here that before
Speaker 1: we go into the next theory or any of that
Speaker 1: the following theories, which is the lady that heard the
Speaker 1: scuffle and ran outside and got a cop. Do we
Speaker 1: think that was five minutes? Do we think she went
Speaker 1: and got a drink at the local pub and came
Speaker 1: back and got a constable, and so it's thirty minutes.
Speaker 1: Do we have any sense of we don't know how
Speaker 1: long it took. I mean, I'm som assembly it was
Speaker 1: not long, and I think it was a ran outside
Speaker 1: and I need a yeah in a corner like that's
Speaker 1: my thought too. But this is again a variable that
Speaker 1: I feel changes the story dramatically. I never have a
Speaker 1: clear confident answer. It's possible she shot him in the hallway,
Speaker 1: cleaned up, and then went out for the had a cigarette.
Speaker 1: She was cool as a cute camera when somebody killed
Speaker 1: that man. The only thing that's tricky for me again
Speaker 1: is the like iron thing is even if it was again,
Speaker 1: we've like I've done some googling, and there's this gas
Speaker 1: powered situation that could have still been hot, but even not,
Speaker 1: it is my impression that it was still hot or
Speaker 1: at least warm. They came turn it on to do
Speaker 1: some ironing, right, But even if it was this kind
Speaker 1: of sits on a fire, gets hot pressing old tiny iron,
Speaker 1: my impression was that it was still warm. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: they don't do and but they also those things don't
Speaker 1: retain heat. Well, you know, fifteen minutes Okay, okay, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like for going for I guess we're we're kind
Speaker 1: of all in agreement that there is a fifteen minute
Speaker 1: lag between the incident and they and actually finding the
Speaker 1: kid and getting the kids. And I feel like we
Speaker 1: need to establish that because otherwise I'm going to keep
Speaker 1: saying I think fifteen minutes is like the most time
Speaker 1: that elapsed in my mind. So, yeah, it was. It
Speaker 1: was fairly recent. There were a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of beat cops walking around in those days, you know,
Speaker 1: and so he was you know, he might have just
Speaker 1: been walking right past the front door. I don't know. Uh,
Speaker 1: a very unearth theory. We're still on that he was
Speaker 1: shot in the hallway and ran inside. There was a scuffle,
Speaker 1: he gets shot in the hand, then he runs inside
Speaker 1: and bolts the door. There's still a problem with that,
Speaker 1: of course. But then the gunman went and got a
Speaker 1: chair or something and stood on it shot him through
Speaker 1: the transom again the same probably that there's a bullet angles,
Speaker 1: Where did the chair come from? That? Where did the
Speaker 1: chair go to? Yeah, all that stuff. So that's about that.
Speaker 1: People have theorized on that one was quite a bit
Speaker 1: new theory. He was so apparently he was making people
Speaker 1: look through the transom window to prove to them that
Speaker 1: he knew them. Then that would prove that he was
Speaker 1: an idiot for leaving it unlatched. So he was standing
Speaker 1: up talking to somebody, said I don't know, you're not
Speaker 1: letting you in, and they said, oh, yeah, I have
Speaker 1: a gun, and he goes no, and they shoot him
Speaker 1: in the hand, shoot him twice in the chest. He
Speaker 1: falls off of the stool that he was standing on.
Speaker 1: They take their stuff and like run away. The little
Speaker 1: boy who crawls through lands on the stool and moves
Speaker 1: it to open the door and the and just doesn't
Speaker 1: even mention it to the cops. And that's how it happened. No,
Speaker 1: I thought I was Velma at the very least. So
Speaker 1: that was that was Scooby level. Okay, yeah it was.
Speaker 1: It was good. But there's still the whole problem of
Speaker 1: you know, snaking the hands through the transom and down
Speaker 1: to the right level and shooting him in the chest
Speaker 1: a couple of times. But if he was standing, if
Speaker 1: they were both standing on a if they were both
Speaker 1: standing on it did like a slightly performers who happened
Speaker 1: to walk around all day long, every day. And still
Speaker 1: if they were both standing on a stool, it would
Speaker 1: have been a slightly downward angle. But okay, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: let's go. Let's go to our next series, which is
Speaker 1: that our killer was still in the room when the
Speaker 1: policeman entered the room. He was a Maltese salcon. I
Speaker 1: like this one. I like this way more than it was.
Speaker 1: He was pretending to be a statue the maltesecon the
Speaker 1: whole time. This reminded me of just just today, actually
Speaker 1: I was it would reminded me of this old mad
Speaker 1: TV skit. Did you ever see the one with the
Speaker 1: department store mannequin killer mannequin? Yeah, that was one of
Speaker 1: the very first episode of the New Doctor Who series
Speaker 1: when they reached arted with Christopher Eckelson. Was mannequins come
Speaker 1: to life? Yes? Yes, yeah, yeah, so it could have
Speaker 1: been like that and this one, uh, these two women
Speaker 1: are it's after hours at the mall and they're cleaning up,
Speaker 1: and there's this guy dressed in a tennis outfit and
Speaker 1: pretended to be a mannequin, but he's like looks like
Speaker 1: a total psycho, and he's started moving towards them, and
Speaker 1: then whenever they turn around, he just freezes. He's like
Speaker 1: the angels, yeah from yeah, and then and then and
Speaker 1: then they said, and then one of them said, I
Speaker 1: don't know something about that mannequin just kind of creeps
Speaker 1: me out. Yeah, and then you go back to whatever
Speaker 1: they're doing. Yeah, it's great. It's it's a hilarious skip.
Speaker 1: It's called like Mad TV Killer Mannequin if you want
Speaker 1: to look it up. Um, but yeah, it could have
Speaker 1: been like that. You just stood there and pretended and
Speaker 1: just held very still and they didn't notice something. They
Speaker 1: just sort of split up, just to make sure I understand.
Speaker 1: The whole theory is that the killer was actually still
Speaker 1: in the apartment when the cops arrived. Yeah, okay, so
Speaker 1: I can I can see this theory playing out well,
Speaker 1: because door shuts, fight goes down, suddenly, here's ladies screaming
Speaker 1: and people pounding down the hallway and has to find
Speaker 1: somewhere to hide. My difficulty is I don't know the
Speaker 1: layout of the apartment, the way that it's connected to
Speaker 1: the business. I mean, he could have had sacks of
Speaker 1: laundry that somebody jumped into to hide and crawled out
Speaker 1: of in the middle of the night, or they could
Speaker 1: have been in his wardrobe. But there's a b jillion
Speaker 1: places that somebody could have not in the silly What
Speaker 1: was the story that the silly the William marchway, But
Speaker 1: there could have been real places that somebody could have
Speaker 1: actually hid for hours until everybody left, or even I
Speaker 1: mean even simpler than that, somebody could have hid in there.
Speaker 1: The kid comes in, the cops come in, the crowd
Speaker 1: comes in, They entered themselves with the crowd, and just
Speaker 1: makes his or her get away and then But that
Speaker 1: the thing, the thing about it is is I don't
Speaker 1: know that there was a crowd. I don't know, ye
Speaker 1: a crowd of people the trek, right, we don't know that.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Listen, we we don't think that they
Speaker 1: should let a crowd in. And yet what is the
Speaker 1: story that you did about the preacher that was having
Speaker 1: the affair and they let everybody trample all over this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they shouldn't do what do that? But they did? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean. The other thing is is like I got
Speaker 1: I don't know how easy it was to find cop
Speaker 1: uniforms or even Yeah, I mean, it could have been
Speaker 1: a cop, but it could have been in the apartment
Speaker 1: dressed as a cop. The cop comes in, it's like,
Speaker 1: well the body he like slides behind him and then
Speaker 1: like you know, you know, makes them like pretend running
Speaker 1: noises and it's like, oh, here I am second on
Speaker 1: the scene. Here, let's do I mean, like a silent movie,
Speaker 1: somebody goes and the copses. That's weird. It sounds like
Speaker 1: somebody's running in a well, I mean like not even that,
Speaker 1: but you know, just slides in, you know, walks like
Speaker 1: tiptoes two steps back in the hallway and then walks
Speaker 1: around the corner back into the room and says, here,
Speaker 1: I am on your backup. Let's deal with this. You
Speaker 1: would again assume that you know, cops would know who
Speaker 1: the other cops in their beat. Well, it could have
Speaker 1: been it could have been a real co And you know,
Speaker 1: back in those days there was a lot more corruption,
Speaker 1: and so there's still a fair amount of corruption. There's
Speaker 1: some of that, but it was a lot more endemic
Speaker 1: in those days, and so there probably were the occasional
Speaker 1: cops who would maybe wax somebody, you know, for one
Speaker 1: of their mopster friends. You know, So it could have
Speaker 1: been something like that. I guess that would be you
Speaker 1: know another Yeah, again, I think this is a fairly
Speaker 1: tiny little apartment, and so I don't know how feasible
Speaker 1: that would actually be to pull off a stunt like that.
Speaker 1: And I don't either because we don't really know the
Speaker 1: layout either. That's the trek. With the right layout, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: with the right layout of the building and the apartment,
Speaker 1: it could work. Yeah, it's not great, it's not a
Speaker 1: good theory. It's just you know, again, at all, it
Speaker 1: all kind of depends, you know, when the if you've
Speaker 1: got witnesses standing around like by standards, even if they
Speaker 1: haven't entered the room, they're blocking the exit from the room,
Speaker 1: and there, you know, when the cops sort of moves
Speaker 1: into the frame and says, hey, I'm here, there's got
Speaker 1: to be at least one or two people say where
Speaker 1: did he come from? Here's the question. Was there a
Speaker 1: fireplace with like a chimney? Nothing? Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: this is like a New York City tenement building. I
Speaker 1: don't think any of those things had fired. I mean,
Speaker 1: those things were tinder boxes to start with, so I
Speaker 1: can't imagine they would laugh or have a set up
Speaker 1: to encourage fire. All right, Well he may have had
Speaker 1: a fire because the iron stove, but not a fireplace. Okay,
Speaker 1: never mind. I was gonna think it was like, you know,
Speaker 1: it came down the chimney, or came up Santa Claus'll
Speaker 1: knock out the chimney. Maybe came in and or just
Speaker 1: hit in the chimney. Yeah, maybe the whole time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I kind of doubt it. The only stories I
Speaker 1: hear about real life people using chimneys to get in
Speaker 1: and out of it always yeah, always yeah. So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Uh well, let's move on to
Speaker 1: our next story, which is very similar to what you
Speaker 1: were thinking, which is the killer. Uh was the killer
Speaker 1: actually was dressed as a cop, and he happened to
Speaker 1: be the first cop on the scene. So he's like
Speaker 1: what he so what he does is he liked that
Speaker 1: it's like this, So you kill the guy and then
Speaker 1: you leave lockingtrough behind you. And then when when the
Speaker 1: woman comes, comes and gets you. You come back and
Speaker 1: you say, like, oh, well, knock, knock, knock. Nobody asked,
Speaker 1: I'll try the door. It's locked, even though it's not
Speaker 1: actually express situation. Yeah, yeah, I'm not buying this one
Speaker 1: because again, you know, the kid did actually go on
Speaker 1: the inside and actually unlock it from the you know,
Speaker 1: so I don't know how the cop really could have
Speaker 1: faked that well, but I'm desperate for theories here. No,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess there is like some ambiguity about
Speaker 1: who went to get the kid, yeah, and where the
Speaker 1: kid came from. So, you know, is it possible that
Speaker 1: the copt up the key in the door? You know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't it wasn't locked. He had the key he
Speaker 1: or he locked it from the outside, try to get in.
Speaker 1: He said, hey, go find a kid for me. The
Speaker 1: woman runs away, He opens the door, sticks the key
Speaker 1: in the lock, pending still pretending it's locked. Always the
Speaker 1: kid up over. Okay, that's that's a great I had
Speaker 1: never kid, because that's part of these locks that we're
Speaker 1: talking about, is bolts. Aside those locks, you can turn
Speaker 1: right forever and think you're unlocking it. You could turn left,
Speaker 1: you know, and you turn it the three degrees left
Speaker 1: or to the right, whatever whichever way it is, and
Speaker 1: you lock it, and you can keep turning it as
Speaker 1: you mentioned forever and it'll just keep locking it and
Speaker 1: locking and locked right. Or you can turn it the
Speaker 1: other way and keep unlocking it unlocking on looking it.
Speaker 1: And it's likely that you wouldn't. You don't really know,
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of makes the same kind of
Speaker 1: sound a lot of times. And so he sticks the
Speaker 1: key in, locks it back up, poists the kid up,
Speaker 1: and the kid goes down and unlocks it and says, yeah,
Speaker 1: he was in the you know whatever, we've relocked it,
Speaker 1: blah blah, and goes in, or the woman stays the
Speaker 1: cock goes to the kid and says, hey, kid, I'll
Speaker 1: pay you, you know, twenty bucks that time money, more
Speaker 1: like a penny that time money, like, you know, some
Speaker 1: absurd amount to a child to say this door was locked,
Speaker 1: and again you would assume right that they would have
Speaker 1: done their due diligence and that kid would have admitted
Speaker 1: and blah, we gotten to the bottom of yea, but
Speaker 1: also as possible, maybe not. But I kind of like
Speaker 1: this introim he says to the woman, go find a kid.
Speaker 1: You have kid, right, of course you do. You're a woman.
Speaker 1: You have a kid. Go find go find your smallest kid,
Speaker 1: find your smallest child. We're going to and she goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course I will, and he sticks the key in
Speaker 1: and yeah. There's only one problem this theory, and that's
Speaker 1: just you know, even though it's my own theory, and
Speaker 1: that is that if the cop actually was the hit man,
Speaker 1: which is not beyond them, no, not at all, but
Speaker 1: if he was, then uh, why go through all these
Speaker 1: gyrations essentially call a lot of attention to this case
Speaker 1: to make it his lockdoor mystery kind of delio when
Speaker 1: that's gonna cause a lot more attention to be paid
Speaker 1: to this whole thing. When typically, you know, murders in
Speaker 1: those days, especially poor immigrants and stuff like that, it
Speaker 1: probably they probably weren't investigated too terribly hard. But but
Speaker 1: again we've talked about this in in freaking numerous stories.
Speaker 1: What was the Jim Gray? Was he the one that
Speaker 1: was on the boat that disappeared and his wife was
Speaker 1: inflicated as doing it to him? Oh yeah, now that
Speaker 1: was in Tasmania, that was, but but you know, nobody
Speaker 1: expected that story to really make the news. It was
Speaker 1: this guy disappeared and and it's weird and if his
Speaker 1: wife really did it, she was like people disappear from
Speaker 1: their boats all the time, and the boats go down
Speaker 1: and it's no biggil. Suddenly boom it's we've talked about
Speaker 1: this before. Boom it's suddenly it sticks. And the cop
Speaker 1: is like, O, S, I have to fabricate a story
Speaker 1: real fast because everybody's asking what happened about the locked door? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I have a theory about this, okay. My theory is
Speaker 1: that since we don't know how long it took this
Speaker 1: woman to find this cop, we don't know where she
Speaker 1: found him. He could have been walking down the hallway
Speaker 1: and she came down exiting the crime scene. He could
Speaker 1: have been standing right outside the front door. Well, I
Speaker 1: mean he could have, and she could have said, oh,
Speaker 1: thank goodness, officer, I heard a scuffle, please help me,
Speaker 1: and he thought a crap, uh, you know whatever. He's
Speaker 1: a cop, but also he's a human, and he thinks she,
Speaker 1: you know, as I did this, Okay, cool LL's we
Speaker 1: got to find a way to make it seem like
Speaker 1: she doesn't like I didn't do it. So he goes
Speaker 1: to the door and he goes it was locked, and
Speaker 1: she goes, oh my gosh, officer, what do you mean
Speaker 1: it's locked? How could it be locked? And he says,
Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll look this, windows open, you gonna
Speaker 1: find your smaller child. No, I'm just saying there's like
Speaker 1: there's some it's good. Yeah, king on the officers part, right,
Speaker 1: but also like kind of dumb thinking, right, because he
Speaker 1: could have been like, wow, whoops, an immigrant got killed?
Speaker 1: Who right? But I don't care. People. People are often idiots,
Speaker 1: especially if they are carrying out a hit for them
Speaker 1: or whatever. If they're doing something bad, they're trying to
Speaker 1: there there, and their gut reaction is going to be
Speaker 1: to try to cover for it. It's not a good
Speaker 1: it's not great. Strange way to cover it is, but
Speaker 1: I can kind of understand the thought process of saying, well,
Speaker 1: it's locked, and maybe even she said, well the windows open,
Speaker 1: so I had a kid, he'll he'll fit right through that.
Speaker 1: We'll see he'll unlock it. And the cop coast Oh
Speaker 1: my god, what no, like yeah, really hopeful person, Yeah,
Speaker 1: stop it. I mean it's possible, it's not. It's not
Speaker 1: a great theory, but none of these are really great theories. Anyway,
Speaker 1: So one conceivable reason why I can think that he
Speaker 1: would he would claim that it was locked, and that
Speaker 1: is that he was not totally sure that is a
Speaker 1: door was yet totally dead, which is possible, you know,
Speaker 1: And so okay, let's pretend. Let's let's pretend, we'll let
Speaker 1: him bleed out for a little while, but they go
Speaker 1: find a kid. But other than that, I can't really
Speaker 1: think of any reason. But that is a possibility right there.
Speaker 1: That's but other than that, I can't think of any possible,
Speaker 1: conceivable reason why he would say, oh, you know, hey,
Speaker 1: look at this a lock door mystery unless she unless
Speaker 1: she saw him coming, I mean kind of even then,
Speaker 1: it's like, even then, it doesn't make any sense. Well,
Speaker 1: if she saw him at the door, and she said,
Speaker 1: but if she saw him closing the door, then well,
Speaker 1: not closing. But if if he was at the very
Speaker 1: I mean, this would be like an incredible coincidence, right,
Speaker 1: this would be just one of the most incredluences the news.
Speaker 1: But if she saw him at the door and he
Speaker 1: had just closed it and she goes, officer, it's crazy,
Speaker 1: I just heard a scuffle coming from there, and he goes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I heard the scuffle too. I was trying to get
Speaker 1: in but it locked. Yeah. Again, it would be an
Speaker 1: incredible I'm literally just spitballing at this point, but that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that wouldn't be That wouldn't be even that incredible a mystery.
Speaker 1: Every account that I've heard, she went and got a
Speaker 1: police officer. He wasn't just standing there. But we've also
Speaker 1: already decided that the reporting that great. But it's not,
Speaker 1: like I said, I'm spit bawling. It's not a great theory.
Speaker 1: But it's something that I'm struggling because all of the
Speaker 1: theories we've done, and all of the theories that we
Speaker 1: have here, they're all bad. They're really grain it up.
Speaker 1: They're very grainy. Yeah, there's there's that's a nice way
Speaker 1: I can say it. Not much reason for her for
Speaker 1: the for the cop if he was a killer, to actually,
Speaker 1: you know, create a lockdoor mystery. You know, there really
Speaker 1: isn't no, no, let's just take that off to the table.
Speaker 1: Though they didn't in to create the genre of the
Speaker 1: locked door mystery. Yeah, well they didn't because that hadn't
Speaker 1: even a thing that wasn't at least one before that
Speaker 1: Joseph found L, Well, you are you making this up?
Speaker 1: Because I didn't know that. Well no, let me let
Speaker 1: me re rephrase what I'm saying. I didn't think in
Speaker 1: the general conscious or the consciousness, that such a thing
Speaker 1: as a locked door mystery was a thing. I didn't
Speaker 1: know that people were calling it that and would say,
Speaker 1: let's create one. That's where I'm going with that statement.
Speaker 1: And I think people knew what to say. Hey, I'd
Speaker 1: like to create my own blah blah blah. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there actually had been a well publish eyes case and
Speaker 1: in nine years pretty okay, Okay, then I take it back.
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't quite realize that. That's one of
Speaker 1: the issues I had with the they wanted to make
Speaker 1: a locked door mystery fully fledged. Example of this type
Speaker 1: of story is generally held to be Edgar Allan pose
Speaker 1: the Murder of the Room Morgue in eighteen forty one.
Speaker 1: So in the mid eighteen hundreds is when lockedoor theoretically
Speaker 1: po created that based off of some actual thing that
Speaker 1: would assume, but that they were rose to prominence in
Speaker 1: popular culture in the mid eighteen hundreds. This was the
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. They were a thing By the way, can
Speaker 1: we talk about for a second about so we already
Speaker 1: did to pome mystery? Oh? I know, but I'm just
Speaker 1: so I have been binging Altered Carbon on Netflix. That's
Speaker 1: just a disaster. Yeah, oh no, no, no, no, there
Speaker 1: the whoever it is that has been writing and writing
Speaker 1: the script for and then playing the po character. Uh,
Speaker 1: I did not read a lot of Pope, but is
Speaker 1: to me the perfect Poe character. So if you haven't
Speaker 1: watched it, it's very apropos. Was that what you say? Exactly?
Speaker 1: Thank you, Joe. We're now friends again, continue on my friend. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's move out to another area here. This one actually
Speaker 1: makes one more sense. Uh, that is, what if there
Speaker 1: was a secret passage and we're not friends again? You
Speaker 1: don't like this one. I hate this theory. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: it makes the most sense, because really, why bother with
Speaker 1: all this locked door crap, you know, unless but if
Speaker 1: there's a secret passage into there through the through the walls,
Speaker 1: like you pick up the the what's the Murphy band
Speaker 1: Like he's got a Murphy bed that opens and it's
Speaker 1: a hole in the floor kind of thing. Yeah, maybe
Speaker 1: something like that, you know, I mean, some floor a
Speaker 1: group of floor boards you lift up out of the
Speaker 1: way and there will hold out of the basement. And
Speaker 1: it makes the most sense because otherwise why bother. But
Speaker 1: apparently the police had thought of that. They looked really
Speaker 1: hard first. Yeah, of course I could have been super
Speaker 1: well concealed. But apparently the police tore the place apart.
Speaker 1: I mean they really, they really tore up the floorboards
Speaker 1: and everything. So I have I have known people that
Speaker 1: have had those kind of situations in their home, whether
Speaker 1: they were new or old. And it is only when
Speaker 1: it is one very large feature that covers another feature
Speaker 1: in the home, like a sliding bookcase or a swinging
Speaker 1: bookcase that goes against the wall, that they tend to
Speaker 1: go unnoticed. This whole like a lot of times you
Speaker 1: see the well, I pulled the rug aside and I
Speaker 1: grabbed the ring, and these set of floorboards popped out
Speaker 1: after a short order. They tend to not appear as
Speaker 1: if they should sink together. They don't blend it. They
Speaker 1: don't blend because they're not sealed. And so you know,
Speaker 1: if anybody's ever worked with wood and let a cured
Speaker 1: piece of would sit next to another, they bend and
Speaker 1: they twisted a growing up. One of our neighbors has
Speaker 1: actually still has a beach house, um, and he's kind
Speaker 1: of like an actual pirate in life, and the beach
Speaker 1: house that he has has a bunch of these. The
Speaker 1: entrance to the master bedroom is a bookcase hidden doorway, um.
Speaker 1: And then there's a secret treasure trove room upstairs. There's
Speaker 1: this bunk room that has like four bunk beds, and
Speaker 1: there's a room hidden behind one of the panels behind
Speaker 1: the bunk bed that the panels are right behind the posts.
Speaker 1: You have to know, yeah, it's they're right behind it's
Speaker 1: it's really well hidden because the posts aren't totally in
Speaker 1: the wall. I mean, it's really it's really really well done.
Speaker 1: That's the hard thing if you're if you're looking to say,
Speaker 1: like you've got to do something like that to hide
Speaker 1: the seams, because like if you've got just a plane
Speaker 1: plaster wall like on the walls of the room right here,
Speaker 1: how did that seem It's been popularly really hard. But
Speaker 1: behind like that chest of drawers there totally be hidden there.
Speaker 1: There's definitely ways to do. Of course the police thought
Speaker 1: of that. You would think, yeah, so I wanted to
Speaker 1: know how much When you say they tore the place apart.
Speaker 1: I really want to know. Were they in there with
Speaker 1: claw Hammer's tearing crap up. I don't know. I had
Speaker 1: heard they actually took up floorboards. Again, I'm not totally
Speaker 1: sure about that, but yeah, I know they're they're all done.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, we're all done here, see you later.
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week at the ballroom fundraiser. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm assuming it is stuff like you know,
Speaker 1: if they were bookcases and tables, they moved them aside
Speaker 1: to look at the wall behind. I took up the
Speaker 1: ruck and yeah, yeah, of course they must have. I mean,
Speaker 1: because you know, they've got to look for that secret passage.
Speaker 1: They didn't find one. They looked pretty hard. Yeah, And again,
Speaker 1: these are these are guys or policemen that are used
Speaker 1: to searching places, and they know where people hide stuff
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, you know, especially I mean, and
Speaker 1: we're also talking like what I mean, Prohibition was kind
Speaker 1: of like around this time, and so we're talking like
Speaker 1: actual Prohibition cops who are actually used to looking for
Speaker 1: hidden speak easy right. Obviously they weren't always looking for it,
Speaker 1: but some were looking forward because they wanted it. And
Speaker 1: many of these cops. Would you know that was that
Speaker 1: was the thing. They were actually specializing in finding these
Speaker 1: kind of hiden hidden spots. There was a lot of
Speaker 1: that stuff going on with prohibition too. I saw this thing.
Speaker 1: I read this article a while back, is about some
Speaker 1: famous place in New York. I can't remember the name
Speaker 1: of it, but the bar it had, and behind the
Speaker 1: bar there were all these shells with bottles on them,
Speaker 1: and they had this cool set up right there where
Speaker 1: the bartender. If there was a raid, you could just
Speaker 1: pull a lever and essentially the bottom would drought would
Speaker 1: open and all the shelves would just just wrote ninety
Speaker 1: degrees and the bottles would just drop straight down and
Speaker 1: into a shoot that went down into the basement. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just totally destroyed everything. I mean it was really
Speaker 1: it was a really cool set. Yeah. I mean it's
Speaker 1: lose a dozen bottles were the booze or get busted.
Speaker 1: I would break a bottle. My grandfather ran booze. I
Speaker 1: had a great alcohol who was a bootlegger. He but
Speaker 1: he was a kid when he did. He was like
Speaker 1: early teens um and he and his brother would um
Speaker 1: run like driving cars and if they got pulled over,
Speaker 1: they was like, it wasn't suspicious because the suspicion was
Speaker 1: of these like thirteen year olds or somehow driving right,
Speaker 1: It wasn't like the bootleggers, And so that was there,
Speaker 1: the like bootlegger trick was. Yeah. Yeah, I actually had
Speaker 1: a conversation today with my grandmother about prohibition booze and
Speaker 1: the things that happened, and it's it's funny, like the
Speaker 1: things that she would be immediately like, well, obviously they
Speaker 1: were doing this, and like, Grandma, nobody's done that since
Speaker 1: like the what do you mean obviously you weren't even born?
Speaker 1: Then why are you saying that heard that stuff from
Speaker 1: she heard it growing up. But you know, it was
Speaker 1: just a funny. It's just funny that at dinner tonight
Speaker 1: I had that conversation with her about Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a fun time, man, but it's worth mentioning. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: cops all that time, we're probably pretty good at finding
Speaker 1: hidden things. I think they would have found a secret
Speaker 1: passage even though so even though that this one makes
Speaker 1: the most sense to me, and maybe it was some
Speaker 1: super fantastically well concealed secret passage. It was so professionally
Speaker 1: done that pooled the cops but also like, why, well,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it was a renter and so he did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would make sense. He didn't have a huge amount
Speaker 1: of money to sink into creating some sort of secret passage,
Speaker 1: you know. That would have been a lot of work
Speaker 1: and expense to create a really perfect secret passage. Hey, well, okay,
Speaker 1: let's me want to another sory? Uh? This one is
Speaker 1: another one that I found on the webs. Really, it's
Speaker 1: not my theory. This theory is that the killer brought
Speaker 1: a little kid with him. This is so weird. It's
Speaker 1: a dumb theory. But the idea said, the killer breaks
Speaker 1: a little kid, shoots as a door and then walks
Speaker 1: out and and tell us a kid to lock the
Speaker 1: door from the inside and then climb up through the transom,
Speaker 1: you know. And and this is I mean, that's it's
Speaker 1: It's totally it would work. But why the hell would
Speaker 1: anybody do that? What's what's that Tom Hanks movie where
Speaker 1: it's a prohibition era movie Perdition Road And it is
Speaker 1: Tom Hanks who had nobody right as angry emails about
Speaker 1: the fact that I remember this plot of this movie wrong.
Speaker 1: But there was something about Hanks and his son and
Speaker 1: be involved in murder stuff and they were. They were
Speaker 1: running around the robbing banks and it was involve halving
Speaker 1: his son in it. And so you know, the the
Speaker 1: kid is like totally invested in this is what we're
Speaker 1: gonna do. So let's apply this Hollywood mystique of enamored
Speaker 1: child to parent figure to say, Dad did this. We
Speaker 1: shut the door. I climbed out the door, and we
Speaker 1: locked the whole place behind us, and we happened like
Speaker 1: that is very hollywood esque. That that is a story
Speaker 1: we have heard, and it doesn't answer the question of why.
Speaker 1: But no, but I also think you know, when you
Speaker 1: say he brought a child, well, it it's a crap
Speaker 1: theory because it or a crap answer, I should say,
Speaker 1: because it answers the question of how did this kid
Speaker 1: get here? But then it's just it's phenomenal in how
Speaker 1: it would happen. Well, yeah, and I hope you're talking
Speaker 1: about a pretty small little kid too. Yeah, yeah, they
Speaker 1: bring along. But you know what, weird people do some
Speaker 1: weird stuff and they bring their kids to terrible Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: particularly if it was this kind of undocumented robbery, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's like totally possible too, that like, we don't know.
Speaker 1: It could have been that this was a robbery of
Speaker 1: this undeclared Maybe maybe Isador was stealing diamonds out of
Speaker 1: people's pockets for all we know, right, I mean a
Speaker 1: time or even if it was just like change and
Speaker 1: there was some like hidden undeclared treasure in or you know,
Speaker 1: it could have been this vindictive that maybe he did
Speaker 1: steal a diamond necklace from some client and he said
Speaker 1: I'm talking about and then the husband and kid came in,
Speaker 1: shot him, took the diamond necklace back. The kid, you know,
Speaker 1: crawls out. The dad says, okay, we did this for mommy.
Speaker 1: It was totally you know, we're in the right. I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry that you had to see that. Keep your
Speaker 1: mouth shut about it and still keeping it still. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: It's in that day and age. It's shut your trap, kid,
Speaker 1: this is what you do for the family. But whatever happens,
Speaker 1: I mean, it is possible that there was this sort
Speaker 1: of well integrated theory. Yeah, you know, I think that
Speaker 1: I did think it is possibly he did have something
Speaker 1: valuable in there that was taken. But it's still it's
Speaker 1: still it still makes no sense to me. To bring
Speaker 1: a kid and I have to kid. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not. It makes utterly no sense. It's yeah, it
Speaker 1: really is. But but it was a theory that's out there,
Speaker 1: so you know, I gotta I gotta put them all
Speaker 1: out there for you guys. All right, Joe, So let
Speaker 1: me ask you this. I'm gonna try and speed this up.
Speaker 1: You have two or three very very minor theories here.
Speaker 1: Can you just give us the headlines of each one? Well,
Speaker 1: because there's not a whole lot of discussion for him
Speaker 1: if I'm unless I'm wrong, No, there's not, there's Uh.
Speaker 1: This is one that the police was saying, Well, all
Speaker 1: we configure is this, which is that the killer was
Speaker 1: really small and skinny and acrobatic and just shinting out
Speaker 1: through the transom himself off after committed the murder, which
Speaker 1: is possible. Again, you know, the question again is why.
Speaker 1: But also apparently we're not talking we're talking about somebody's
Speaker 1: super super skinny, and and that it's still the question
Speaker 1: still is why you do it? I feel like I
Speaker 1: want to address this why for two seconds. The thing
Speaker 1: that I want to address with the why is discovery. Discovery, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that like we've talked about this before. So you
Speaker 1: want to leave the door locked to just delay the body.
Speaker 1: You just assumed that this kind of reclusive, paranoid human
Speaker 1: has just locked himself in his apartment for a couple
Speaker 1: of days, right, And maybe it's the weekend, Maybe it's
Speaker 1: he knows there's not going to be clients coming in.
Speaker 1: Whatever it is that assumedly delays discovery of this murder,
Speaker 1: of this crime to give you even more time to escape.
Speaker 1: Clearly that did not work in this case, but I
Speaker 1: feel like that could be a reason to do that
Speaker 1: locked door because if the door is locked and barred,
Speaker 1: a cop comes and knocks it's locked, they can maybe
Speaker 1: they can even see if there is an actual bar
Speaker 1: in its glass door whatever, they can see that it's locked.
Speaker 1: It delays that, you know, they just assume the guy's
Speaker 1: asleep inside his own house. The keyhole is is blocked
Speaker 1: because the key is locked from the inside. What I
Speaker 1: mean if not, well, yeah, there's still there's still I'm
Speaker 1: gonna give standard because I just don't know at this
Speaker 1: pointed I don't know either. I just would add that
Speaker 1: to the year, so they're not going to look in
Speaker 1: and see some guy laying on the floor, they've heard
Speaker 1: sounds of a scuple and just say, oh, he's just sleeping.
Speaker 1: They're gonna say he died, he had a heart attack,
Speaker 1: or chilled himself. There's all sorts of possible yeah, but
Speaker 1: all sorts of possibilities that would make them take, well,
Speaker 1: we had to kick the door in and check this.
Speaker 1: But if the lock has the key in it, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're going to assume he locked it from the inside.
Speaker 1: He's in there, and then and then well, yeah, but
Speaker 1: if he locked it from the inside and then had
Speaker 1: a heart attack, he locked it from the inside and
Speaker 1: then shot himself, you know, and so you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: so they kind of do you I mean, even if
Speaker 1: they do if somebody heard the scuffle. But the assumption
Speaker 1: here is that if this person thinks they're so like
Speaker 1: nimble and amazing, they've created this lock door situation, nobody
Speaker 1: heard anything, and then like you get a couple of
Speaker 1: days distance and then question because I hadn't thought about
Speaker 1: this before, and maybe this is where you're going with this, Devin,
Speaker 1: is My long standing presumption was that the door to
Speaker 1: is it or Fink's apartment or business wherever it was,
Speaker 1: who was found was a solid wooden door. Are you
Speaker 1: saying that. No, a matter of fact, it was a
Speaker 1: door that had a large glass panel in it. I
Speaker 1: don't know the apartments, but for his business. And I'm
Speaker 1: asking because again we don't know how it was set up,
Speaker 1: and maybe the business side had a large plate glass
Speaker 1: window which would afford the view that then he is
Speaker 1: talking about where they're saying, oh, look he's sleeping it off.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's like a clear panel like Joe's
Speaker 1: door where you can just look in and it's like,
Speaker 1: but nobody come here and try and rob Joe because
Speaker 1: you can see in his door, but he's got lots
Speaker 1: of guns. The kind of door I'm thinking of is like, uh,
Speaker 1: have you watched Jessica Jones frosted? It's frosted right in
Speaker 1: New York every once in a while, or old in times,
Speaker 1: like older buildings sometimes they had frosted one like the
Speaker 1: top handle was frosted. But even more than that, it
Speaker 1: wasn't that that whole mention wasn't necessarily that like you
Speaker 1: can see a body and there. It was more than like,
Speaker 1: oh you can see the steel bar, it's across it,
Speaker 1: that's across it, and that maybe it was locked it's not. Again,
Speaker 1: that was not the important point for me. The important
Speaker 1: point for me was that but that it would perhaps
Speaker 1: be that if some body went to all this trouble,
Speaker 1: it would be to buy themselves some time to continue
Speaker 1: to give them an albi or whatever. Maybe that's the
Speaker 1: only reason I can ever get behind these kind of
Speaker 1: locked door mysteries, right, is that somebody had a reason
Speaker 1: that they wanted to make sure that the body wasn't
Speaker 1: found for a while. Yeah, that's other than that, or
Speaker 1: like I said, the it might just be they want
Speaker 1: to just have a little fun with the whole thing,
Speaker 1: create this big and I enjoy watching reading the papers
Speaker 1: and reading out you know, everybody's all, you know, like
Speaker 1: scratching their heads over this. Well, there's another possibility, was
Speaker 1: and it's maybe if if assuming the windows were nailed
Speaker 1: shut and the way that I was talking about, by
Speaker 1: drilling a hole, typically something that's removable, yeah, to removable
Speaker 1: long nail then and basically removable peg yeah, or a
Speaker 1: peg or nail. But you know, I mostly see people
Speaker 1: do it with nails, but you know, you could do
Speaker 1: a peg or whatever, and typically you don't drive the
Speaker 1: whole horse bottle you drill it from the inside, you
Speaker 1: droll it down angle an angle so that lifting the
Speaker 1: window up locks it in, so that no matter how
Speaker 1: much you shake Jimmy back and forth, you can't pop
Speaker 1: it out. Gravity is gonna keep pulling it back into place. Yeah, exactly, because, yeah,
Speaker 1: if you have a slide quietly the other way and
Speaker 1: somebody just shakes the window for a little while, it'll
Speaker 1: just vibrate, but right out of that. Yeah. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the reason you know we have in my house. I
Speaker 1: always call him Jimmy bars, is that they're the bars
Speaker 1: that lay horizontally in my window so that when I
Speaker 1: crack my window, it's still flat, and even if somebody
Speaker 1: opens and slams it back and forth, it won't pop out.
Speaker 1: You know, if you are foolish enough to open it
Speaker 1: far enough and put your bar to forty five degree
Speaker 1: angle or whatever the window afford you, somebody can grab
Speaker 1: the window and start wailing it back and forth and
Speaker 1: knock it out. So yeah, it's it's it's a it's
Speaker 1: a method of ensuring that it does not come out
Speaker 1: of place. Yeah, And so if if somebody to say, say,
Speaker 1: if his door had somebody had been let in the
Speaker 1: front door, and it killed this door. Decided to exit
Speaker 1: by the window. Maybe maybe he heard the neighbor outside
Speaker 1: the yelling one you know, I'm along for the police,
Speaker 1: you know, And so he decides to pull you out
Speaker 1: the window. What's that? How did that go? What's that?
Speaker 1: He said? For the police. But I really wanted him
Speaker 1: to get that, wouldn't do it? Yeah, And so as
Speaker 1: he decides to exit, buy it through the window. So
Speaker 1: he pulls the nail out and pulls it out just
Speaker 1: partially and slides the window up, goes out and slides
Speaker 1: the window down. And then if he if he's a
Speaker 1: clever burglar type, he might even act. It could be
Speaker 1: the nail would just accidentally sort of slide into place
Speaker 1: and locked the window just all unintentionally. It could be too,
Speaker 1: if he's a clever guy, he might actually pull a
Speaker 1: shut then vibrated a little bit. Watch that nail from
Speaker 1: the other side of the glass and see the nail
Speaker 1: sort of going down as he vibracal window. I had
Speaker 1: never considered it that way. And that is that is
Speaker 1: ingenious to use a lock against the person who set
Speaker 1: it up. I mean it's yeah, So that that would
Speaker 1: assume that is the door. I had left somebody inside
Speaker 1: and then bolted the door after and they went out
Speaker 1: through another which would be the window. Yeah, that's contanious.
Speaker 1: We could have had it open with the nails sitting
Speaker 1: in the slots above where they were there. Locking point
Speaker 1: was to get fresh air, and whoever went out the
Speaker 1: window slammed it shut, which then pushes the nails fall
Speaker 1: into place. Especially if he was using a gas iron,
Speaker 1: you would walk for the carbon monoxide. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And so he could have and I again, this is
Speaker 1: the big assumption here, is that he hadn't powdered nails
Speaker 1: under the window permanently seen the fullow bend him over. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that he actually because you don't want to
Speaker 1: open your windows occasionally. Yeah, I was something he just had,
Speaker 1: especially you have a laundry. Yeah hell yeah yeah, not
Speaker 1: by far the best theory. It's not he committed suicide,
Speaker 1: but the rats just carried the gunaway. That's another theory, Okay,
Speaker 1: I like the other one. Yeah, thinking rats the pizza
Speaker 1: the rat man. Yeah, rat truth way is a terrible
Speaker 1: theory for this one. Yeah. So I'm thinking it's like
Speaker 1: that window one out the window and and just you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's official for once you change my mind. Alight that one?
Speaker 1: Then Okay, it's good. Alright, Well I guess that wraps
Speaker 1: it all up then except for all the housekeeping. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you've got a theory, you probably want to send
Speaker 1: us an email. Yeah, we've got one of those things.
Speaker 1: It's Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. We also
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Speaker 1: where we are thinking sideways podcast. Uh. And that's about it,
Speaker 1: I guess, So alright, So sure, so you guys, I
Speaker 1: guess we will see you all next week. Until then,
Speaker 1: good puns for me, you guys. No, I'm still so
Speaker 1: freaking conflicted about this one. Yeah, it bugs the crap
Speaker 1: out of me, and I'm now upset that you've you've
Speaker 1: chosen it. I was very happy at the beginning, but
Speaker 1: now I'm upset. We finally got it out of the way,
Speaker 1: al right, guys, next week. Bye,