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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuckers Bryant over there, looking magnificent

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Speaker 1: and marvelous as always, at least in my head your vision, Chuck. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're going to see each other next week. I know,

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Speaker 1: how excited are you? I am pretty on fire. I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to it's it's been well over a year. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember the last time we recorded together, but it

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Speaker 1: was definitely I would say February probably of the last

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Speaker 1: nuts we we isolated pre pandemic. We saw it coming, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we did. We probably should have warned everybody, but well

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Speaker 1: we didn't want to, cause, you know, a stir right,

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Speaker 1: We don't like to make waves, so we knew some

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Speaker 1: people would just not believe us. Um. So we're talking today,

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Speaker 1: Chuck about corporate income tax, and I'm sure some people

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Speaker 1: just said, well, goodbye and must stop. But I feel

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Speaker 1: bad for those people, because it turns out that corporate

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Speaker 1: income tax is less eye bleedingly boring than it seems

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Speaker 1: on its surface. I think, yeah, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: so too. I think a lot of I mean economics,

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Speaker 1: as you know, is tough for me. Uh, And there

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Speaker 1: is a part everyone it's been many years since I've

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Speaker 1: had to do this, but there's a part where Josh

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Speaker 1: is gonna have to teach me because I read that

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Speaker 1: section four times and I told Josh it sounded like

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Speaker 1: physics to me. I'm I'm with you though, like, And

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Speaker 1: there's a reason that I figured out all these years

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Speaker 1: of us doing economics um episodes, I figured out why

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Speaker 1: it's so hard to understand because a lot of it

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Speaker 1: is just straight up who we like, economists are wrong

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Speaker 1: about a lot of stuff, and um, they know it too,

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Speaker 1: So I'm not exactly sure what they're doing to reinvent

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Speaker 1: their field, but there's a I mean, it's taken a

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Speaker 1: beating in the last few decades for sure. So I

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Speaker 1: think one of the reasons why it's so hard to

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Speaker 1: understand because it doesn't make a lot of sense in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways to Yeah, and there's economics is

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Speaker 1: one of those things where you can have two very knowledgeable,

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Speaker 1: well respected economists saying completely opposite things and saying that

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Speaker 1: they are they are each correct, You're wrong, I'm right,

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Speaker 1: And it's not like this philosophical sort of political stuff

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Speaker 1: that can easily be disagreed on. It's just like no,

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Speaker 1: they're they're like, no, I'm right about this economically speaking,

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Speaker 1: and the other person's like, no, you're dead wrong. It's

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Speaker 1: really this and then guys like us are like, I

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Speaker 1: don't even know who to believe, right, And then agreeing

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Speaker 1: to disagree solves nothing. It basically just punts it down

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Speaker 1: the road. Yeah, don't you think that indicates that there's

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Speaker 1: a fatal flaw in that science if there you know,

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Speaker 1: if no one knows who's right. Well, that's like a

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Speaker 1: really good point because that really comes to the surface

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Speaker 1: with corporate income tax because there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: out there, typically liberal economists, who tend to think that

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Speaker 1: corporate income taxes are a very very good thing and

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Speaker 1: we need them, and that average American typically agrees with

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Speaker 1: those liberal economists, even people who are not liberal in

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Speaker 1: any way, shape or form, because the average everyday American

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Speaker 1: tends to think that corporations should pay taxes as well. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then there's conservative economists who say, no, this stuff

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Speaker 1: is stifling business. It has all sorts of other pernicious

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Speaker 1: effects that will get into um, we should do away

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Speaker 1: with them alltogether, And the fact of the matter is,

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Speaker 1: no one is sure who's right. Do we need corporate Texas,

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Speaker 1: do they actually harm things? They don't even agree on

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Speaker 1: who actually ends up paying corporate taxes. It is so

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Speaker 1: um there's a lot to like kind of dig into here,

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Speaker 1: which is one reason why I like it so much. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess we'll go ahead and get some

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Speaker 1: stats on the board out of the gate. I think

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Speaker 1: at ten of the countries in the world, only ten

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Speaker 1: don't have some kind of corporate income tax, and here

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Speaker 1: in the United States. And we'll get to how it's

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Speaker 1: been over the years, but I think in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: we've brought in about two thirty billion in corporate tax

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Speaker 1: compared to one point seven to trillion from you know,

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Speaker 1: people like you and I and uh now, it's about

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Speaker 1: six percent of the total take, whereas in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixties it was forty of like all taxes were paid

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Speaker 1: by corporations. Yeah, and like, I mean, corporations were paying

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Speaker 1: for a lot of the functioning of America at that time.

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Speaker 1: What's weird is corporate profits were also higher during that

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Speaker 1: time too. And I couldn't see anything any smoking gun

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Speaker 1: where some economists was saying like this is the reason why,

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Speaker 1: um that you know, a decline in corporate tax rates

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Speaker 1: has actually led somehow to decline in profits. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think there's anything in economics, especially when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about huge, sweeping macroeconomics that make up one of the

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Speaker 1: world's largest economies, if not the largest economy, America's. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's never just one thing. There's never you don't just

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Speaker 1: push one button and then it just has its one effect.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a whole bunch of buttons that are

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Speaker 1: creating this one larger effect, and they're really hard to disentangle. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and Congress has been taking uh, corporate income tax since

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Speaker 1: nineteen o nine when they said, quote, Congress shall have

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Speaker 1: power to lay in collect taxes on incomes from whatever

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Speaker 1: source derived without uh what is that apportionment? Okay, how

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Speaker 1: I read the the oh, and the I switched in

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Speaker 1: my mind apportionment among several states and without regard to

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Speaker 1: any census or enumeration, right, which is a kind of

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Speaker 1: a different thing like it used to be where if

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Speaker 1: you taxed one group you had to text everybody equally,

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Speaker 1: regardless of say, like if West Virginia the same population

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Speaker 1: as California, but California had a lot more income. Well,

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Speaker 1: West Virginia had to pay the same amount, not not percentage,

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Speaker 1: amount of income tax that all the wealthy people in

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Speaker 1: California had to pay, and so that kept income taxes

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Speaker 1: away for a while. Which, by the way, we've done

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Speaker 1: an episode on income taxes, and we also did that

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Speaker 1: chapter in the book on it too. We apparently can't

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Speaker 1: get enough of income taxes. Yeah, and we did a

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Speaker 1: an episode on corporate personhood many years ago too, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which really kind of plays into this. It's the reason

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Speaker 1: why a lot of people say corporations should pay their

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Speaker 1: fair share. They're treated as people under the law, and

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Speaker 1: people under the law have to pay taxes in the

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Speaker 1: United States. That's kind of a big, a big reason

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Speaker 1: why people want to see it. But yeah, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until nine nine, and I think, um, it was like

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Speaker 1: you said, the sixties where that was like the heyday

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Speaker 1: of corporate taxation, where the tax rates for for corporate

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Speaker 1: income tax reached almost fifty three percent in the United States.

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Speaker 1: It is apparently, um, the UK had a similar peak,

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Speaker 1: but there's came later in two and then Australia's peak

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Speaker 1: came in nine six at fort So that and that

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Speaker 1: actually kind of points out something that I came across, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: because there's a lot of like, um, one country will

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Speaker 1: change its tax code to kind of attract foreign money

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Speaker 1: to kind of get dumped into it. And which makes

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense because when you dump billions or

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Speaker 1: hundreds of billions of dollars from all these businesses who

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Speaker 1: find your tax codes attractive, that money is now in

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Speaker 1: your economy, like your financial institutions can go out and

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Speaker 1: invest it, and you can do all sorts of amazing

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Speaker 1: stuff with it. That's why countries have different tax codes

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Speaker 1: at different times to a tracked foreign investment basically, right,

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Speaker 1: which we'll get into that. I mean that's foreign investment

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Speaker 1: is one name for it. Um hiding money another way

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Speaker 1: to say it. Jackie channing, Uh, I don't get that.

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Speaker 1: What did you do? Remember the Panama papers they revealed this,

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Speaker 1: this Panama's attack haveing. The only person who was basically

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Speaker 1: publicly pilloried for it was poor Jackie chan. Somehow Jackie

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Speaker 1: chan ended up the face of that thing. That's terrible. Um,

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned conservative and liberals. It's a little counterintuitive,

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Speaker 1: but under Ronald Reagan actually um the He actually went

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Speaker 1: after corporate taxes to try and increase the corporate tax

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Speaker 1: amount so he could decrease US paying taxes a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And in eighties, I think that was with a Tax

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Speaker 1: Reform Act, they cut the rate from forty to thirty four,

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Speaker 1: closed a lot of loopholes, and I think the end

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Speaker 1: the end result of that was the percentage went from

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Speaker 1: five percent to ten percent starting in the eighties until

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Speaker 1: Bill Clinton came along. Yeah, and then Bill Clinton topped

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Speaker 1: it off at thirty five percent, and there it stayed.

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Speaker 1: He's just added a percentage point and there it stayed

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Speaker 1: for quite a while, actually until I think two thousand

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Speaker 1: and seventeen when it got slashed to one UM. And

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Speaker 1: for from about to two thousand seventeen, the US had

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Speaker 1: one of the higher tax rates in the world. Because

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Speaker 1: it seems like there's there's always an outlier, like the

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Speaker 1: the United Arab Emirates I think has Camorros in Africa

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Speaker 1: has fifty, and then usually it drops down into the thirties.

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Speaker 1: And there's a handful of countries in the in the

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Speaker 1: mid to low thirties UM, which is where the United

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Speaker 1: States was for a while until two thousand seventeen. So

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Speaker 1: it looks like, if I'm reading this right, the since

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Speaker 1: of the nineteen eighties, the person image of federal revenue

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Speaker 1: from corporate taxes has been under ten percent. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: which is historically low. I think it got down to

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Speaker 1: one percent of g d P, which is another way

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Speaker 1: to measure it. Um uh, for the first time since

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Speaker 1: the very early eighties when Reagan first came in. Because

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Speaker 1: Reagan slash taxes across the board in and I think

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Speaker 1: he overstepped it so far that Congress is like, we're

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Speaker 1: reforming corporate taxes in six there, Like you want to paycheck,

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Speaker 1: right exactly, fellow congress person. Right, Uh, maybe we should

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Speaker 1: take a break after that set up, you think, I

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Speaker 1: think so. Yeah, it's a little early, but now we

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Speaker 1: can really get into the really fun stuff. Prepare for

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Speaker 1: the eye bleeding, all right, We'll be right back, okay. So, um,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to corporate income tax, it's a little

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Speaker 1: different than individual income tax in the US. Right. With

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Speaker 1: individual income text, there are a few things that are

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Speaker 1: kind of removed from your taxable income, right, like you're um,

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Speaker 1: health spending account contributions, just a little stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: But for the most part, you're paying like on your

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Speaker 1: gross income, which makes sense because you don't have like

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Speaker 1: profit and loss necessarily, although I guess if you think

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Speaker 1: about it, you could just tax people on just what

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Speaker 1: they have left over. They're they're, um, what's it called

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Speaker 1: your something income? You know, you're you're well, yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: net but income expendable income, right, Yeah, they could totally

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Speaker 1: just text everybody after like housing, after healthcare, after groceries,

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Speaker 1: all that stuff, just like a business. They hadn't occurred

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Speaker 1: to me, but that's totally how you could do it,

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Speaker 1: And they don't do it that way. I'd be great,

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Speaker 1: But they do it for for corporations. Uh they do

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Speaker 1: because corporations get do get text on their net and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is actual corporations, where if you're a

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Speaker 1: sole proprietorship or if you're a partnership like an scorp

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Speaker 1: or yeah, like you know that's that's not the same thing.

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Speaker 1: This is only for corporations. Uh. It says here that

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're like my wife's business, for example,

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Speaker 1: is not a corporation. It's a small business and she

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Speaker 1: pays personal income tax, so that's like sort of the

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Speaker 1: pass through situation. Yeah, her companies have passed through entity. Right,

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Speaker 1: so like all of the profits and all that stuff

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Speaker 1: just comes right to her your individual income tax. But

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Speaker 1: with the corporation, it's a its own entity. Again, it's

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Speaker 1: like in the United States. I'm sure not everybody out

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Speaker 1: there understands this, but the Supreme Court, starting in the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century and a few times over the course of

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Speaker 1: the last hundred or two hundred fifty years, has affirmed

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Speaker 1: that corporations are artificial people. They have the same rights

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Speaker 1: and everything is as everyday Americans. It's nuts, it's totally wrong,

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Speaker 1: and it's created all sorts of horrible problems. But one

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Speaker 1: of the things that that amounts to is that you

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Speaker 1: can tax a corporation. They're treated, uh, in that sense

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Speaker 1: under the law as a person, but a person with

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Speaker 1: special privileges. Right, And he talked about moving money around.

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Speaker 1: The reason that happens is because here in the United States,

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Speaker 1: they are taxed on money that they make in the

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Speaker 1: United States. So if you're I don't know, like Apple

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Speaker 1: or Microsoft, let's say, or any you know, not any

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Speaker 1: or every big corporation, but many big corporations of them,

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Speaker 1: you might want to say, hey, let's, uh, let's find,

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Speaker 1: like you mentioned earlier, a country with a really friendly

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Speaker 1: tax code. It's called tax in version, and let's just

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Speaker 1: confuse everybody by uh using what's called transfer pricing, which

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Speaker 1: is basically creating they're not fake transactions, but their transactions

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Speaker 1: between subsidiaries all over the world just to move profits around. Basically, yeah,

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Speaker 1: using more biblical terms, it's like robbing Peter to pay Paul. Basically,

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Speaker 1: it's all like moving goods from one division to another

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Speaker 1: within the same company. There's no reason that the company

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Speaker 1: has to charge that division or the other division or

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Speaker 1: providing a service. Like let's say you bring your marketing

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Speaker 1: team into launch a new podcast. You could have the

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Speaker 1: podcast division charge or the marketing division charge the podcast

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Speaker 1: division front and it's all as far as the company's concerned.

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Speaker 1: It's all internal money. It's all kept in the family.

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Speaker 1: But all of that is just kind of right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And then you're like this, I really needed that money, um,

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Speaker 1: But the as far as like um, multinational corporations are concerned.

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Speaker 1: When you do that and it crosses international borders, that's

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Speaker 1: a really good way to move money from say the

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Speaker 1: United States to say the Cayman Islands, where there's no

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Speaker 1: income tax. It's one of those ten countries, And so

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, that money that you just moved

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Speaker 1: from the U S to the Caymans doesn't count as

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Speaker 1: profit that America can tax any longer. That's that's transfer pricing,

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Speaker 1: which is a form of tax and version. There's other

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Speaker 1: stuff you can do too. You can move your headquarters

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Speaker 1: to another country with um a lower tax, which really,

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Speaker 1: from what I can tell, basically amounts to changing the

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Speaker 1: address on your letter head um and maybe some legal documents,

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Speaker 1: like I think Burger King did that when they bought

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Speaker 1: Tim Horton's. They basically used Tim Horton's headquarters as the

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Speaker 1: new corporate headquarters for Burger King. So Burger Prince could

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Speaker 1: go to school in the right district exactly right, except

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Speaker 1: in this case rather than going to school districts is

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Speaker 1: saving billion and billions of dollars in taxes, even though

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a joke because Tim Horton's is just

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Speaker 1: dwarfed by the size of Burger King. So the idea

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Speaker 1: of this giant company, Burger King, transferring its headquarters to

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Speaker 1: you know, relatively smaller Tim Horton's headquarters. It seems a

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Speaker 1: little disingenuous, because that's the thing. Everybody knows that corporations

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Speaker 1: try to get out of paying their taxes. They're just

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Speaker 1: famous for it, especially in the United States. But when

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Speaker 1: you come down to it, that is deeply un American

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Speaker 1: and really immoral. And businesses are not supposed to be

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Speaker 1: doing that. They're supposed to be paying their taxes and

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Speaker 1: being upstanding corporate citizens, but they don't do that, and

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Speaker 1: so every once a while they get called out on it.

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Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why we still have corporate taxes,

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Speaker 1: as we'll see, is because the average American, like you know, me, thinks, heck, yah,

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Speaker 1: corporations should be paying their taxes just like us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And these tax havens they cost governments a lot of

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Speaker 1: money all over the world, between five hundred and six

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Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars, which you know that that puts a

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Speaker 1: dent on us here in the United States, but if

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Speaker 1: you're a developing nation or a low income economy, it

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Speaker 1: makes a real big dentu If you're losing, you know,

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Speaker 1: a couple of hundred billion dollars, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: a real hit to your g d P. And you

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Speaker 1: know when Apple moves thirty billion dollars to Ireland over

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Speaker 1: the course of four years and employees and nobody over there,

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Speaker 1: and their TAXI rate of two percent, that does hit

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Speaker 1: the United States, but not like it would in some

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Speaker 1: other countries. Right, But again you can understand why why

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Speaker 1: Ireland would be like, I think they actually made a

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Speaker 1: sweetheart deal with Apple for that. Because Ireland's corporate tax

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Speaker 1: is normally twelve point five percent, they knocked ten percent

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Speaker 1: off for Apple. So um, but I looked at Ireland's

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Speaker 1: GDP that thirty billion dollars was twelve percent of the

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Speaker 1: value of Ireland's GDP in two thousand So I Land,

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Speaker 1: that was an enormous influx of cash and worth whatever

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Speaker 1: effort they were going to make to get it into

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Speaker 1: their borders. Plus they got to make some money off

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Speaker 1: of it in taxes in addition to having it invested

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Speaker 1: into their economy. Um. An, Apple, like they got pilloried

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Speaker 1: and kind of called out in two thousand thirteen for

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Speaker 1: that that kind of transfer pricing or tax in version technique,

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Speaker 1: right because they didn't have any any employees in Ireland

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Speaker 1: at the time, and they got called out for it.

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Speaker 1: But if you compare Apple to a lot of the

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Speaker 1: other fortune five hundred companies, they are they might as

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Speaker 1: well be we blows for goodness sake. As far as

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Speaker 1: like paying taxes is concerned, they are ned flanders, um,

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Speaker 1: just to the tea. As far as paying taxes goes

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Speaker 1: compared to like companies like Amazon, it's just astounding. They

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Speaker 1: should not be ever be picked on at all in

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Speaker 1: that respect, just by comparison. Yeah, I mean, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about Amazon. You know, they've been criticized a lot and

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Speaker 1: called out a lot, especially over the past couple of years. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand, seventeen and eighteen, they paid zero dollars

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Speaker 1: in taxes. Uh, and they made big profits three billion

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Speaker 1: dollars in profits. This isn't the gross. This is that

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Speaker 1: that net profit that we were talking about that they're

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Speaker 1: supposed to get taxed on. Uh. In seventeen, I think

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Speaker 1: it was I'm sorry, in eighteen it was eleven point

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Speaker 1: two billion dollars in profits from three billion. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: paid zero dollars in tax of both years. And not

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Speaker 1: only that, check they got refunds those two years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty nine million dollars and a hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty seven million dollars respectively over those two years, and

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Speaker 1: then finally a couple of years ago in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: they were like, we'll pay some taxes. So they paid

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Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty two million on the profit of

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Speaker 1: thirteen point nine billion for a whopping percentage rate of one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so in Amazon deserves to get it, you know, UM

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Speaker 1: publicly berated for it. And I also have the impression

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Speaker 1: that they paid those taxes in two thousand nineteen just

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Speaker 1: because politically it was getting bad, like the press for

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Speaker 1: it was getting kind of ridiculous. So they're like, all right,

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Speaker 1: we'll pay a hundred and sixty two million. It's not

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Speaker 1: even the combined refunds that we got the last two years,

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Speaker 1: but at least we're paying something. Um. There are there

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Speaker 1: plenty of other corporate tax sodgers. Chevron, Haliburt and IBM

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Speaker 1: also paid zero dollars and taxes, and I think two

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Speaker 1: thousand eighteen UM and there was a two thousand two

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Speaker 1: eighteen study UM that found that of three hundred and

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Speaker 1: seventy nine of the Fortune five hundred companies that turned

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Speaker 1: a profit in two thousand and eighteen, ninety one of

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Speaker 1: them paid zero dollars in taxes um. And I think

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Speaker 1: altogether those three d seventy nine paid something like eighty

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Speaker 1: six billion, when really, had they paid just the one

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Speaker 1: percent that lower twenty one percent effective rate, it would

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Speaker 1: have been a hundred and sixty one billion. So you

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Speaker 1: can make a really good case that the corporations in

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Speaker 1: America are really really good at getting out of paying

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Speaker 1: taxes for the most part, even though not all of

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Speaker 1: them do. And going back to Apple, Apple paid sixteen

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Speaker 1: billion in taxes in two thousand nineteen compared to Amazon's

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty two million in in that same year, right,

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Speaker 1: And you could also make the case that the UH

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Speaker 1: tax reduction for corporations and leaving open of the loopholes

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Speaker 1: did not in fact boost federal corporate tax revenue like

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Speaker 1: they said it would, which never made sense to begin

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Speaker 1: with anyway, exactly now it was all just a big scam, UH.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier though, like we still can't agree on

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Speaker 1: who actually pays this. So you hear Amazon or whoever

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Speaker 1: pays a hundred and twenty six what they pay a

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Speaker 1: hundred six million dollars, I don't know, hundred and sixty

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Speaker 1: two million, Like who actually you know, Jeff Bezos, right,

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Speaker 1: a check to the federal governed want for that? How

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Speaker 1: does that work? And economists don't even really agree on

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Speaker 1: who ends up like taking this financial burden on. I

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Speaker 1: think even in the seventeen I'm sorry, sixteen hundreds, there

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Speaker 1: was an economist named William Petty, Sir William Petty, and

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Speaker 1: he said, you know, kind of like what a lot

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Speaker 1: of people probably think, which is it's just gonna be

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Speaker 1: passed onto the consumer as higher prices. They're gonna just

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Speaker 1: raise the price of their goods. Other people say, well,

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Speaker 1: that can't be true, because if you're already charging prices

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Speaker 1: where you've maximized your profits, you can't there's there's a cap.

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Speaker 1: You can't just keep raising your prices over and over

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Speaker 1: and over to cover yourself because eventually people are gonna

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Speaker 1: be like, I'm not gonna buy that, right. Yeah, When

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Speaker 1: you raise prices, it makes people think like, oh, can

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Speaker 1: I actually afford that? And you start you start actually

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Speaker 1: shooting yourself in the foot. And that's generally the understanding

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Speaker 1: among economists today. You know, hundreds of years after Sir

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Speaker 1: William Petty um that he was wrong and there that

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Speaker 1: idea is actually born out. Among the different states in

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Speaker 1: the US, some of them have zero taxes on corporate income,

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Speaker 1: others have, you know, relatively high taxes on it. And

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Speaker 1: yet if you go from one state to another state,

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Speaker 1: when you buy a pack of Hubble Bubba bubble gum,

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00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: it's probably gonna be exactly the same price before before

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Speaker 1: you pay sales tax on it um, which goes to

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00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: show like, you know, they're not going to charge a

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00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: different price because they're having to pay corporate taxes. That

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Speaker 1: just isn't the way it is. And Plus, also, corporations

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Speaker 1: aren't the only ones who sell Hubba bubba, right. You know,

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Speaker 1: if Emily wanted to, she could become a distributor of

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Speaker 1: Hubba Bubba bubblegum. And I wouldn't blame her if she was,

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Speaker 1: because it's about as good as bubble gum has ever

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Speaker 1: been produced. I was a hubble Bubba kid. I was

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Speaker 1: not bubblicious. I I didn't like bubblicious either, but ultimately

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00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: I was bubble Yumm. And I think there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of things that represent the pinnacle of human endeavor.

401
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,959
Speaker 1: One of them is um lemon lime bubble yum. Remember

402
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 1: it was the green outside in the yellow center. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Um.

403
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,919
Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned it before. Rambo bubble gum. It

404
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: was BlackBerry flavored big League chew with Rambo holding a

405
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: missile launcher on the I've definitely never heard that. That's amazing.

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00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,959
Speaker 1: And then lastly et peanut butter flavored cereal. Uh well,

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Speaker 1: I'm a Captain crunch guy, as you know, but uh

408
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: on the gum. Hubble Bubba to me always produced, It

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00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: always yielded the best bubbles. Yeah, and if you were

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Speaker 1: a champion bubble blower and sometimes bubble within bubble blower

411
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Speaker 1: like myself, then you reach for the hubble Bubba. You

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Speaker 1: need to. You need to make a video of yourself

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Speaker 1: doing that. Man. Bubble gum was good too, though, but

414
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: just bubble you Almo was good too, But you're absolutely

415
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 1: right there was hubble bubble was as good as it

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00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: gets with the bubbles, for sure, don't. I don't chew

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Speaker 1: gum anymore, but if I was going to, I would

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Speaker 1: get a pack of bubblegum like that. I think hubble

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00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: Bubba is basically unchanged bubble yams a little weird. Now,

420
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: it's a little different the current state bubba. I've tried

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00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: it once in a while. Yeah, I mean if you

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Speaker 1: want to go get transported back to your youth, like

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Speaker 1: get some get some real bubble gum, and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to do that. Where were we? Okay, where we are?

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Speaker 1: So states? Uh yeah, states don't charge different prices. Like

426
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 1: it's not like let me go to Florida and stuck

427
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: up on that gum because it's you know, six cents cheaper. Um.

428
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: So then, ohh I know where we were. Really we

429
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: were talking about Emily becoming um Hubba Bubba distribution. She

430
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 1: doesn't have to pay corporate text, so she could sell

431
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: Hubba Bubba way cheaper than say, General Electric could sell

432
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: Hubba Bubba. If they ever wanted to, she could undercut them.

433
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: General Electric wouldn't be selling Hubba Bubba any longer because

434
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: it would be hamstrung by those corporate taxes. Emily is

435
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: not hamstrung by the right. So we're still left without

436
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: an answer on who's paying um. Usually these days modern

437
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: economists say, well, here's what's going on is the burden

438
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,479
Speaker 1: is going to fall on the owners. But what that

439
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: really means is it's divided among shareholders of that corporation.

440
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: And what it really is happening is employees are being

441
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: paid less, and so they're all kind of taking in

442
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: on the chin. Yeah, because as far as the economists

443
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: are concerned, if if the government is coming in and

444
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: taxing somebody, then there's three entities that could possibly be

445
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 1: paying for it. Capital, the business owners, the people who

446
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: like own the machinery, own the money that's invested into businesses, capital, employers, labor,

447
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: you know, the workers employees, and then customers. And if

448
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: we've already decided that it's not being passed on to customers,

449
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: you've got capital and labor left. And so yeah, it

450
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: makes sense that it would be capital who's paying the

451
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: tax in the form of lower dividends than they would

452
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: otherwise be getting if the pot that the dividends were

453
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: coming out of was greater because the tax hadn't been taken.

454
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: But economists still say that's not the end of it.

455
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: We think it's probably ultimately divided somewhat, probably not evenly,

456
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: but somewhat between capital and labor, and that labor helps

457
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: bear the cost of these corporate taxes by getting paid

458
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: lower wages. There's just less capital stock involved, and so

459
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: when you have less money, um, you know, you can't

460
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: get like a goose plucking machine. That that that means

461
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: you're gonna pluck this goose. You know you you can

462
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: do ten gooses an hour rather than two. That just

463
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: little Samuel, the ten year old boy with the full

464
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: chin beard, can pluck by himself with just his hands.

465
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: Even though Samuel saying, you get this goose plucking machine,

466
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: I'm going to oversee it and we're really going to

467
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: make some money. You don't have the money to buy

468
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: the goose plucking machine, so all you can do is

469
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: just keep employing Samuel. Maybe his cousin Ezekiel every once

470
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: in a while comes in on weekends, but you don't

471
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: have that money. They're less productive, so you're making less

472
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: money in the market, which means you have less money

473
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: to pay Samuel and Ezekiel, even though they're doing harder

474
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: labor than the otherwise would be. If you weren't such

475
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: a tight wad and would buy the goose plucking machine,

476
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: right and do you get his fire Samuel, to be honest,

477
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: you probably would. Well, yeah, he has been talking back

478
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: quite a bit lately. I mean someone could turn on

479
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: that machine and push push goo. Ezekiel could at a

480
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: lower rate than Samuel. Oh yeah, he has zero loyalty

481
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: to anybody, including his cousin. Let's take a break here

482
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: and then we'll talk about arguments against in than four

483
00:28:34,359 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: after that. How's that? Okay? So arguments against taxing corporations

484
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: some people, and this is sort of the thing you

485
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: hear all the time is is the economy referred to

486
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: as an engine and this motor that's got a home

487
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: along and people that say you should not text corporations

488
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: are people that are saying, listen, this is what is

489
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: keeping that engine humming. Is they're employing people, they're generating money. Uh,

490
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: they're selling things there. I mean, this is the economy basically,

491
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: And if you just get rid of corporate taxes, then

492
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: they're gonna they're gonna reinvest that stuff. They're gonna pay

493
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: their employees more, Your prices are gonna drop, they're gonna

494
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: it's gonna trickle down to you, and that engine is

495
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: just gonna hum right. I mean, that's that's ultimately what

496
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: all of the arguments against corporate taxation amount to. Because

497
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: and you are already taxing those individuals and those shareholders

498
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: on their personal income taxes. So like your double taxicum

499
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: to cut it out right. So, yes, the corporation itself

500
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: has to pay income taxes theoretically where they actually, like

501
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: you said, Jeff Bezos, cuts a Skexias from the dark

502
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: crystals check to the federal government for a hundred and

503
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: sixty two million dollars or whatever um. And then on

504
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: top of that, after they pay their taxes, this post

505
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: tax amount, the the corporation sends out dividends quarterly annually. However,

506
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: to the shareholders. The shareholders are in some way shape

507
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: or form and oftentimes very literally owners of the company.

508
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: But if you own shares in a company, you are

509
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: part owner of that company, and so you're getting dividends,

510
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: you're getting a part of the profits. Right. So when

511
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: you get those dividends given to you, um, at the

512
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: end of the year, you have to declare those on

513
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: your income taxes and then you have to pay personal

514
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: text and that. So it's like you said, it's double taxation.

515
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: And so the government saying we'll take a little bit

516
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: of this capital out of the economy for ourselves. Oh

517
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: and by the way, we'll take out of your your

518
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: little wealth pot too, um. And not all of a sudden,

519
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: there's just that much less money to be reinvested into business.

520
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: That's a huge argument against corporate income taxes that's been

521
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,239
Speaker 1: around for a very long time. But there's also like

522
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: a lot more nuanced ones too. Um. One of the

523
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: big ones is that, like it's a tax on entrepreneurship

524
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: where if you are a company and you need some

525
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: money to keep it, say expand your business right, um,

526
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: and you're you've got your profits and everything like that,

527
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: but you really want to take it up to the

528
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 1: next level and you need a lot more money than

529
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: you have in the bank, you can issue shares more

530
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: shares of your your company. UM. That's called equity financing,

531
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: where you're releasing equity shares, which your current investors don't

532
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: really like because all of a sudden there are way

533
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: more shares on the market, um, and their shares are

534
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: suddenly worth a little bit less. Even though they didn't

535
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: do anything and your business is doing fine, they don't

536
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: like you very much. Then there's another way to do

537
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: It's called debt financing, and that is instead of issuing

538
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: shares of ownership to your company, you're saying, hey, I

539
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: need I need to borrow money from you. I'm going

540
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: to issue you the certificate, I'll pay this back in

541
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: X number of years with with interest. Right, they're called

542
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: corporate bonds. You have to be a massive company to

543
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: issue debt securities to raise money like that. You just

544
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: have to have that kind of established business and trust

545
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: with the public to issue debt securities. But the reason

546
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: that businesses do that is because you you can deduct

547
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 1: the interest that you pay those investors for lending you

548
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: that money. You can't deduct dividends. So if you're a

549
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,719
Speaker 1: little startup, all you can do is um issue shares.

550
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: Nobody trusts to enough to buy debt securities. I mean,

551
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: you're an unproven business, but they will buy shares in

552
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: your company because they think you probably are going to

553
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: be able to make it. They're just not sure. So

554
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: you can issue shares and then put out dividends, but

555
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: you can't deduct the dividends. Your competitors, the bigger guys,

556
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: can do that, or they can issue death securities and

557
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: then they can deduct the interest. So there's actually a

558
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: tax is corporate tax. Um is actually at tax on

559
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship in that sense, which again it's really nuance and

560
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: it's really wonky. But once you start to like enter

561
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: the world of like high finance and new innovative technology.

562
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: This is a big deal to you, you know what

563
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: I mean. Yeah, And you know there are people that

564
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: say that the disparity between the taxation between those interest

565
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: in dividend payments is why we're getting all these stock

566
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: buy backs happening, which you know, if you're if you

567
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: paid attention at all to the news in the United States,

568
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: when tax laws change for corporations, you heard a lot

569
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: about stock buy backs, which is the idea that a

570
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: company is going to use their profits to buy its

571
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: own stock off the market instead of doing the thing

572
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: that they said it would do, which is, hey, they're

573
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: going to reinvest these these profits that they're they're making

574
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: back into the company. They're gonna get new equipment, they're

575
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: gonna hire more people, everyone's gonna get a raise or

576
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: R and D is gonna pick up. And what really

577
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: happens a lot of times is they just buy stock

578
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: by box. They just say, hey, we got this extra money, now,

579
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: why don't we buy back a bunch of our own

580
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: stock and consolidate even more control and more power and

581
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: more money. Uh. And it's you know, insert doctor evil laughing, right,

582
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: at this point. Basically yeah, because allegedly you're theoretically, the

583
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: stock buy backs only come when this company is so

584
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: flush with cash it can't spend all of it, so

585
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: it just does these buybacks. But they happen even when

586
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: a company doesn't have a bunch of cash, because it

587
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: raises the share price a lot more. Too. It also

588
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: lowers their their non deductible dividend payments as well. So

589
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: the the the idea that you that deductibles are not

590
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,479
Speaker 1: or dividends are not deductible. Um, but interest is it's

591
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: it's a it's it's also laying the foundation for those

592
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: stist buy backs, like you were saying, right, and then

593
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: you add in just the complex plate of spaghetti that

594
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 1: is the U. S. Tax code, and it's just it's

595
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: really complex. And some people say, if companies weren't having

596
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: to kind of sift through this tax code and it

597
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 1: was a lot simpler, or maybe if they didn't have

598
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: to pay them at all, then maybe they would uh

599
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: reinvest some and not have stock buybacks. Yeah. Not to

600
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: mention the critics of of corporate taxation say, like, we

601
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: don't even know who's paying this at this point. It's

602
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: possible that wages could go up if we didn't have this.

603
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: So when you take all of these reasons together, there's

604
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: some pretty good arguments um against corporate taxation, and um

605
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: you can take them all together, put them into a

606
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: pile and say, hey, every day, Joe American, what do

607
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: you think of this? And watch them urinate on all

608
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 1: of your reasons that you just neatly piled together. O

609
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: there reasons for uh corporate taxation? The people say, no,

610
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: we definitely should. One of the big reasons is just

611
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: kind of what we've been talking about is just public

612
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: perception of your average American is, yeah, why do I

613
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: gotta pay taxes? And Amazon doesn't? Uh, So that's one

614
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 1: big reason. Another is is people that say, hey, look,

615
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: the government is basically providing the infrastructure for which these

616
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 1: companies are getting rich. The bridges and the waterways and

617
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: everything that we're maintaining and subsidizing as tax paying citizens,

618
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: the roads. Even these corporations are are utilizing that stuff.

619
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: So they need to pay their fair share just to

620
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: support that that infrastructure. And the government is really the

621
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: engine because they take care of all this stuff. In theory,

622
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: it's dude, it is just such a smoke screen too,

623
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: that the government is portrayed as just this, this spend

624
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: thrift pickpocket that just steps on innovation and and takes

625
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: the rev out of the engine of the economy by

626
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: taxing business like there's an entirely different way of looking

627
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: at it, and that by maintaining those bridges in these

628
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: waterways and and um, the infrastructure that businesses used to

629
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: hum along. The government itself is a wealth creating engine two.

630
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: And the government is mandated to use that money as

631
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: soon as it gets it right. A business is not

632
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: necessarily mandated there, There is no mandate. The board of

633
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: directors and the shareholders might want the business to spend

634
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: its money rather than sitting on it, but it doesn't

635
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: have to. And plenty of businesses might just be sitting

636
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: on a big pot of money. Well. Another argument in

637
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: favor of corporate taxation is that the government says, you

638
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 1: can't do that, at least not with this percentage. Is

639
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: twenty one percent of that money that you made this year,

640
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: because we're gonna take it and we're gonna put it

641
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: back in those roads and everything. And yes, agreed, the

642
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: government is not like a uh an efficient machine by

643
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: any stretch of the imagination, and plenty of that money

644
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: also ends up going into other things that I consider

645
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 1: very important, like social programs that keep people from starving

646
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: to death, that kind of stuff that don't necessarily have

647
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: anything to do with business unless you zoom out enough

648
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: and then realize that if you want a worker to

649
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: show up to work um alive, they need to eat food.

650
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: And so if you're not paying them enough, the government's

651
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: actually taking that money from you and making sure that

652
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: that worker is fed so they can show up at

653
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: work the next day. If you zoom out far enough,

654
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: it all has to do with business, and it all

655
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: connects like that. It's just some people argue that that

656
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: it's it should just be just on its face about business,

657
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: that anything that isn't obviously overtly on its face about

658
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: business should just go away and and be and not

659
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 1: have anything to do with business and let business deal

660
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: with business. Yeah, how's that working? Yeah, real well, real well,

661
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 1: thanks for asking. Another reason you might want to argue

662
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: for corporate taxation is is merely took to put these

663
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: companies in check and these corporations in check, and to

664
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: make them tap the brakes every once in a while,

665
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: because with that kind of money yields great power, especially

666
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: in the wake of the Citizens United Decision, when now

667
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: corporations and companies can spend whatever they want to get

668
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: involved in politics and to woo politicians through lobbying efforts.

669
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: And you know, some might say that if you at least,

670
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, smash their head with attacks a little bit,

671
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: maybe that shouldn't be so violent. If you levy attacks

672
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: on their corporation, if you tickle their ear with a

673
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 1: feather a metaphor for taxation, then that at least keeps

674
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: their power and influence a little bit more in check.

675
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how much that's that's working, but that's

676
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: the thought. I think it's working a lot. Actually, yeah,

677
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: And I think and it's weird to think of and

678
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: I didn't think of it before, but researching this, it

679
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: seems to be. Um, you know, it's two sides of

680
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: this same coin. Some people say, well, a good way

681
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: to keep government power and check is to reduce its

682
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: ability to tax things because it depends on that money.

683
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: It's like a vampire that just sucks money right out

684
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: of everybody. Um, So it's two sides of the same coin.

685
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: I think that that is the give and take that

686
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: we see when it comes to the tax code is

687
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, whatever group thinks that the government is a

688
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: blood sucker um if they're in charge, then taxes go down.

689
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: If somebody thinks that that businesses need to be kept

690
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: in check, taxes tend to go up. And that's that

691
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: kind of seesaw effect that we see. But I think

692
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: ultimately it does have at least some impact. It's not perfect,

693
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: but I think it's enough that it's it's worth doing

694
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: just for that that point as well. Right, You also

695
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: might say that it provides a backstop basically two personal

696
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: income tax for the wealthy. Here in the United States,

697
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: nine tenths of corporate stock are owned by the top

698
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: tenth of the income distribution, So it's you know, the

699
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: wealthy are uh, they're the ones that are running these

700
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,959
Speaker 1: corporations obviously, and if we didn't text the corporations, they're

701
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: also getting away with tax loopholes and tax shelters, and

702
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: these individuals might not be paying any tax at all

703
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: as people and as corporations. Yeah, they might actually form

704
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: shell corporations themselves and say, oh no, all of this

705
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: is corporate income. It's not taxable. If there's no corporate tax,

706
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: and I read that that's one reason why most countries

707
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: have a corporate income taxes too, because it's ultimately a

708
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: tax on the wealthy, because the wealthy are the largest

709
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,479
Speaker 1: shareholders in the corporations around the world. And I hadn't

710
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: really thought about it before. But once you see corporate

711
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 1: taxes a tax on the wealthy, like, the picture becomes

712
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: much clearer of what, you know, what the battle lines

713
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: are in that that argument and debate over the existence

714
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: of corporate taxes. Right, so it's here to stay. It's

715
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: not gonna go away. They're not going to completely do

716
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: away with it. The tax code is a big jumble

717
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: play a spaghetti. Like I said, it's a big mess.

718
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: And there are some people that say, well, you know,

719
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: if we want to kind of fix this corporate problem

720
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: that we have, maybe and I think these were a

721
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: couple of Rutgers professors, and there are there are some

722
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: different ideas will govern, But they had an idea I

723
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,479
Speaker 1: thought was interesting, which is, let's not rewrite the tax

724
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: code again. It just gets more confusing and offers more

725
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: opportunities for loopholes. Let's just lock that in, but then

726
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: offer a wealth tax on top of everything for these corporations.

727
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 1: They said, how about five percent of the actual growth

728
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: of the company for that year. So maybe the federal government,

729
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: here's what you should do. Subtract the end of the

730
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 1: year's share price from that share price that uh where

731
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: it was at the beginning of the year, multiplied by

732
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: the number of outstanding shares on each date, and then

733
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: tax him on that amount over and above the regular

734
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: corporate tax rate. Yeah, and then that captures everything that

735
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: captures the actual growth in the company's well that year,

736
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: not just necessarily their profits from revenue. And it also says, hey,

737
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: keep it up, keep going. You can find all these

738
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: loopholes and all these tax hodges that you figured out.

739
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 1: This is again like a like like, uh, corporate taxes

740
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: a backstop to wealth and income tax for the wealthy.

741
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: This is like a backstop for corporate corporations getting out

742
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: of paying corporate income tax. It's it's just kind of

743
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: clomped on in addition to it. I don't know if

744
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: it's going to go anywhere, but it's a it seems

745
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: like a pretty good idea. Uh. Some people say, another

746
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: way we can fix it is to basically treat these

747
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: corporations like they are partnerships and you know, just let

748
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: the money flow through and then tax the shareholders individually. Yeah.

749
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: The problem with that that I saw is that you

750
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 1: then would be taxed on your individual income on all

751
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,479
Speaker 1: the profit that the corporation made that year, even though

752
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: you didn't see that amount in dividends necessarily. Let's say

753
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: you saw twenty or dividend that year for your one share,

754
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: but really your your share of that profit was two

755
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: hundred dollars, but you might be text on the two

756
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: hundred dollars rather than the twenty dividend, and that, I mean,

757
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: that would just chase people away from investing in companies.

758
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 1: So that's probably a generally bad idea, agreed. But yeah,

759
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: it's it's like you said, it's not it's not going

760
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: anywhere at all. It's it's here to stay, just at

761
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: the very least, because the everyday American is like, yeah,

762
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: corporations should pay taxes. Yeah. Um, the none or the

763
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: everyday Americans that are saying let's just get rid of

764
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: it are not every Dame Marian's right there, like Mr

765
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 1: Burns and disguise sort of wearing a bowling shirt or something.

766
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: You got anything else, I've got nothing else. I'm taking

767
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: off my ice skates. Finally, you did great. Man. You

768
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: didn't seem like you were hanging by your fingernails at

769
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 1: any point in time either. I don't think fooled you again. Uh. Well,

770
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: since Chuck said he fooled us again, I think then

771
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: everybody is time for a listener mate. Yeah, boy, this

772
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: is a good one. Uh, I need to said this

773
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: one up. Remember we did. I don't want to bring

774
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: this up. I know it's a matter of a past

775
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: trauma for both of us. But remember when we did

776
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: our Feral Children Live show at south By south Befests.

777
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: Just so you folks know, you might not have heard

778
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: the story. We did our Feral Children Live show at

779
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: a bar in south By Southwest where there was a

780
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: big sort of DJ event before and after I think,

781
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: and then we were squeering in the enter. We were

782
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: squeezed in between and this was a bar with they

783
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: were probably I don't know, let's just ballpark it and

784
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: say four dred people in there and about fifteen of them.

785
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: We're stuff. You should know listeners that wanted to hear

786
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: what we were having to say. Let's not exaggerate, Chuck

787
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: it is probably like eighteen or nineteen. I just remember

788
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: you and I locking eyes at a certain point very

789
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: early on and and literally mind reading each other of

790
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: we're agreeing right now to skip this material, right, And

791
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: we did, Yeah, we did, And it was it was

792
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: like we just kind of knew what parts we were

793
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: going to skip and all that too. It was pretty

794
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 1: amazing that. The saddest thing about all this is that

795
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff, you should know, listeners were left

796
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: out in the hot sun on the sidewalk and couldn't

797
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: get in, which we had nothing to do within our

798
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: still apologizing for it. So that's the setup. Uh, this morning,

799
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 1: I was listening, Hey guys, I was listening to our

800
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: Feral Children real and you started the episode by lamenting

801
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: how terrible your first attempt was when you did it

802
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: live in Austin In Like, we didn't even release that

803
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: it was unreleasable. Uh no, it wasn't even close. Like

804
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 1: we re recorded it, if I'm correct, right, Um, yeah,

805
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: we recorded it as like a regular studio exactly after

806
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: we got over the trauma. I just want to let

807
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: you know that at least one great thing came from

808
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 1: that show. See, I was in the audience that day

809
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: with an old friend that I hadn't talked to and ages.

810
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: We were both fans of the show and we're excited

811
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: for the chance to see you live. We ended up

812
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: having a great time decided to hang out again a

813
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: few weeks later. Long story short, we're now married with

814
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: an eighteen month old. That's awesome. How awesome is that

815
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: you guys would continue to play a huge partner lives

816
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 1: and have kept his company during countless road trips and commutes,

817
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: including to cross country moves. Our daughter now starts dancing

818
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,479
Speaker 1: when she hears the theme song and we jokingly refer

819
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: to you guys as Uncle Josh and Uncle Chuck. I

820
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: think that's only right. Yes, thanks for all you do,

821
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: and please come back to Austin. Uh. And that is

822
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 1: Jenny And I told Jenny. I was like, this is amazing.

823
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read this. And I'm a little mad at

824
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: you for not sending a picture of this baby that

825
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: we're partially responsible for. I want to see this kid.

826
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: I bet Jennielsen the picture. I'll bet you will too. Um. Well,

827
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: thanks to Jenny, thanks to the kid, thanks to the husband,

828
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 1: and thanks to all of the terrible bar patrons at

829
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: that episode that we record at that time but never released.

830
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: But thanks especially to all this Stuff you Should Know

831
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: listeners who were turning around and telling the people at

832
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: the bar to sh Do you remember that it didn't work? No,

833
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: it didn't work, But I was like, hats off to

834
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: all of you guys trying to shush the people at

835
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: the bar who've never heard of stuff you should Oh boy,

836
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: that was terrible. Yeah, but that's great news, Jenny, And

837
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: thanks again. And if you want to get in touch

838
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: with this, like Jenny and take one of our terrible

839
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: memories and dust it off and make it shine and

840
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: show it in a different light. We love that kind

841
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: of stuff. You can send us an email to stuff

842
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: Podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know

843
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts

844
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

845
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.