1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to the Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our series on the 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: vegetable Lamb of Tartary, a legendary creature that appeared in 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: medieval and Renaissance European bestiaries and travelogus, such as the 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: Travels of Sir John Mandeville. If you haven't heard part 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: one of the series yet, this is one where you 9 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: should really go back and check that out first so 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: you'll know what we're talking about today. But if you're 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: rejoining us after last time, a quick refresher on these legends. 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: The idea was that somewhere in Tartary, which is a 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: vast stretch of the Asian mainland including what is now 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: Central Asia, parts of China, all of Mongolia, and the 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: whole eastern part of Russia uh there was said to 16 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: live a type of zoophyte or plant animally, a creature 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: with both animal and vegetable properties, combining aspects of a 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,919 Speaker 1: sort of bush or shrub with a sheep or a lamb. 19 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: And some sources like Sir John Mandeville describe a plant 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: that grows gourd like fruits, and when you cut these 21 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: gourds open, they reveal fully formed lambs inside, tiny little 22 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: lambs which have flesh and bone and blood. He says, 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: they're real lambs, and I ate one of the lambs 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: and it was good. Other sources describe something even more fantastical. 25 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: I think these are usually sources that come a little 26 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: bit later than Mandeville. Um. They say that there is 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: a plant that grows a fully formed adult lamb or 28 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: sheep which is attached to the ground via a plant 29 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: stem that grows into its stomach, and the lamb can 30 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: only survive while there is still herbage for it to 31 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: graze on within the radius of the stem, so the 32 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: stem is kind of like a tether, and once it 33 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: eats all of the grass within reach, it starves to 34 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: death unless it is killed and eaten by wolves or 35 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: by humans first. And this lamb or sheep is also 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: said to be a real animal in composition, having bones 37 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: and blood and in whichever form. This creature is known 38 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: under many different names, but the most commons the most 39 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: common ones would be like the lamb of Tartary, the 40 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: Tartar lamb or the Bora mets or the Bara mets. Now, 41 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: towards the end of the last episode, we talked about 42 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 1: phylogenetic reasons that you would not expect to actually see 43 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: an organism like this, So we can be pretty sure, 44 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: without knowing anything else, that this did not actually exist. Because, 45 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: of course, plants and animals may have many individual characteristics 46 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: that are superficially similar, whether for some adapted reason like 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: mimicry or just by chance converging ecological needs and so forth, 48 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: but a plant will never actually grow a sheep that 49 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 1: has actual muscle, flesh, and bones and blood. So the 50 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: question is where did these legends actually come from? And 51 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: a couple of major explanations have been offered over the centuries. 52 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: One very good source that I referred to in the 53 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: last episode and I'm gonna keep talking about in this 54 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: one is a book by a nineteenth century English naturalist 55 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: named Henry Lee, and it's called The Vegetable Lamb of Tartary. 56 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: This was published in eight seven. Now, in that Karuba 57 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: paper that I referenced in the first episode, h the 58 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: author points out that that various folks over over the 59 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: year sort of in the mythic era of the bora 60 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: mets ever since, at least you know, the seventeenth century, 61 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: during that period where where commentators have known that there's 62 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: no such thing, but have been curious as to why 63 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: such a thing might have been invented and invented over 64 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: time um that that, you know, various folks have have 65 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: chimed in on it and brought up various plant specimens, 66 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: quote natural and manipulated to possibly explain it. And so 67 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: one of the possible explanations that that has been brought 68 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: forth was the the wooly fern explanation. And this is 69 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: this is one of the possible explanations that Rose mentions 70 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: Carol Rose mentions in passing and specifically it was suggested 71 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: that the ferns rhizome or you know, the roots system 72 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: might be the lamb in question uh and this is 73 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: actually reflected in the scientific name for this species uh 74 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: Sebodium borrow mats and it's also known as the golden 75 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: chicken fern and uh. I included a picture of of 76 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: this for you, Joe. I actually ended up going to 77 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,559 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Botanical Garden over the weekend, and I didn't 78 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: get a chance to ask anybody if they had one 79 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: of these around. But I kept looking. I was on 80 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: the lookout for this chicken fern, for this uh possible 81 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: uh explanation for the vegetable lamb of Tardari, But I 82 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: did not see it. Yeah, nice furry fern. I mean 83 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: it does does look an awful lot like fur. This explanation, 84 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: I believe, first arose at the end of the seventeenth century. So, 85 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: as we discussed in the previous part, by this time 86 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: authors were already skeptical of the zoophyte story, and they 87 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: started coming up with alternative ways of sourcing the myth. 88 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: And Henry Lee chronicles this by noting that in a 89 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: Sir Hans Sloan offered a presentation to the Royal Society 90 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: of London of a very strange object, and in his 91 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: paper he provides an illustration. Robb, I've attached a copy 92 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: of this for you to look at, but we can 93 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: read his illustration and then add anything we want. So 94 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: I'm going to read from the section of Sloan's paper 95 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: that Lead quotes here, but I've made some abridgments because 96 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: it was kind of long. So Sloan writes, the figure 97 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: represents what is commonly but falsely in India, called the 98 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: Tartarian lamb. Sent down from thence by a Mr. Buckley. 99 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: This was more than a foot long, as big as 100 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: one's wrist, having seven per two huberances, and towards the 101 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: end some footstalks about three or four inches long, exactly 102 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: like the foot, like the footstalks of ferns, both without 103 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: and within. Most part of this was covered with a 104 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: down of a dark yellowish snuff color, some of it 105 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: a quarter of an inch long. It seemed to be 106 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: shaped by art to imitate a lamb, the roots or 107 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: climbing parts being made to resemble the body, and the 108 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: extant footstalks the legs. I have been assured by Mr Brown, 109 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: who has made very good observations in the East Indies, 110 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: that he has been told by those who lived in 111 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: China that this down or hair is used by them 112 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: for the stopping of blood in fresh wounds, as cobwebs 113 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: are with us. And I'll come back to that, and 114 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: that they have it in so great esteem that few 115 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: houses are without it. But on trials I have made 116 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: of it. Though I may believe it innocent, yet I 117 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: am sure it is not infallible. Now I have several 118 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: things to say about this. First of all, I suspect 119 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: Sloan is wrong that the Lamb of Tartari is actually 120 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: a legend in India or anywhere in Asia, because as 121 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: far as I can tell, this was a legend in 122 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: Europe about Asia, not a legend in Asia itself. Like 123 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: we talked about Engelberg Camphor in the last episode, who 124 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 1: traveled all about Asia, and he certainly went to Persia, 125 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: but like different parts of Russia and all over. And 126 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: I think he said that nobody knew what he was 127 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: talking about when he asked about this, right, Yeah, it's 128 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: like they don't know what it's about. They don't know 129 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: what I'm talking about when I bring this up. It's 130 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: just pure invention, uh, and the European invention, to be clear. 131 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: But the other thing I would add to this, and 132 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: this is a sidebar, but I couldn't let it go 133 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: work cobwebs, as in spider webs, actually used by the 134 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: English to stop blood flow when somebody had a big cut. 135 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: They're bleeding profusely, like oh no, Johnny got brained with 136 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: an ax. Somebody get a bunch of spiders. I had 137 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: not heard this before, and I feel like it would 138 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: have come up. I would have at least seen it 139 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: on Outlander, you know, yeah, exactly. So I looked this 140 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: up and yes, this apparently was a remedy for bleeding 141 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 1: in some traditional European medicine. So the source I found 142 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: on this was a book by Kathleen Stalker called Remedies 143 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: and Rituals Folk Medicine in Norway and the New Land, 144 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: published by the Minnesota Historical Society in two thousand seven. 145 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: And this comes in a section of the book talking 146 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: about home remedies of Scandinavian people's and she says that 147 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: in some cases they would cram parts of bee hives 148 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 1: and wasp nests into their wounds because they believed it 149 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: would help make the blood clot. And apparently some of 150 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: them did the same thing with spiderwebs. So here's a 151 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: quote that Stalker includes. Quote, stopping blood with cobwebs was 152 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: so common that children learned to apply the remedy themselves, 153 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: says Hilda Kongsberg born eight in roll Soy, East, Norway. 154 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: And then this is quoting Kongsberg. When we children were playing, 155 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: we sometimes fell and got hurt, even for deep wounds 156 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: or a badly pinched finger. We would find cobwebs kingle 157 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: Vev in her dialect, sprinkling. Finally, shaved sugar in the wound. 158 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: First we would stuff it with the kingle Vev and 159 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: wrap a rag around it. Soon it would heal. Uh, folks, 160 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 1: don't try this at home. I think there may be 161 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: some hygiene issues here. I would I would recommend sticking 162 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: with sterile bandages if at all possible. The other detail 163 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: also gets me. So it's not just putting like cramming 164 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: spiderwebs in your wound, but also sugar shaved sugar, Yeah, sugar, 165 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: something sweet, and then also a little spider web, a 166 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: little bit of that at kingle Vev. Yeah, yeah, Well, 167 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: I was wondering if the reasoning is you want the 168 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: blood to clot and these are both things that are sticky, 169 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: sugar and spiderwebs. Maybe I don't know. I mean he 170 00:09:58,040 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: does go to show that. Yeah, I wouldn't see the 171 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: an Outlander. I should be watching that show Vikings. And 172 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: then I'm surely somebody's gonna stop up a wound with 173 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: some with some kingled V. Well. As a as a 174 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: commentary note on this sidebar, I will also say This 175 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: just just makes me think of regression to the mean. 176 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: We have a whole episode on that concept if you 177 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: want to check it out. But as as a note 178 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: of of scientific intellectual hygiene, you can't know if a 179 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: treatment works just by giving it to somebody who's in 180 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: a bad state and then seeing if they get better 181 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: e g. If a person with a cut stops bleeding. 182 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: Because people often get better on their own, you have 183 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: to have a control group. You take bleeding people, split 184 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: them up randomly, some get spiderwebs, some get some kind 185 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 1: of control, and then you have to see if the 186 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: people with spiderwebs do better than the control group, not 187 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: just if somebody with the spiderweb happens to get better, 188 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: right right, Yeah, Again, It's like if you you're having 189 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: some sort of ailment that's bothering you, and you just 190 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: decided to try some sort of a weird T and 191 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 1: then you end up feeling better. Well, maybe the T helped, 192 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: but maybe it didn't. Maybe happened to be drinking the 193 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: weird tea whilst your body was going about the its 194 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: regular healing regime. Right thank anyway, coming all back to 195 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: Hans Sloan, so Sloan at the end of the seventeenth century. 196 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: This was your s. He believes he has identified the 197 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: origin of the Bora Mets legend, and it is this 198 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: little quadrupedal plant sculpture that is built out of the 199 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: downy rhizome of a Chinese species of fern. Now, over 200 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: the following centuries, a few additional specimens of this sort 201 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: of Chinese plant sculpture were publicized by European collectors and museums, 202 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: and many authors clearly believed this was indeed the source 203 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: of the myth. They thought they had cracked it. You'll 204 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: remember in the last episode, I read that passage from 205 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: Erasmus Darwin's naturalistic poem The Botanic Garden, where he writes 206 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: about the boro mats. The lines were um even round 207 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: the pole, the flames of love as buyer and I 208 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: see bosoms feel the secret fire cradled in snow and 209 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: fanned by Arctic air, shines gentle Bora mets thy golden hair. 210 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: So why does Darwin specify golden hair there when a 211 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: lot of the older sources said white hair. If they 212 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: said the color at all, well, Henry Lee in his 213 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: book believes this is because Darwin is buying into the 214 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: rhizome theory. So these lamb or dog sculptures had a 215 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: more golden or tan color because that's the nature of 216 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: the plant. That the fibers coming off of the fern 217 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: rootstock were not white, they were like golden or tan 218 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: or brown. So Lee thinks this is not the correct 219 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: explanation for the origin of the lamb legend, and I 220 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: think I agree with him, But what's his reasoning. Well, 221 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: he goes on a long discussion of the known properties 222 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: of the ferns used to make these sculptures. He says, 223 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: first of all, it is worth noting that we have 224 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: no evidence of these sculptures predating the legend. Examples only 225 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: show up long after the legend was already known. So 226 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: if there is any link at all, and we don't 227 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: know that there is. But if there is any link, 228 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: why not supposed that the legend inspired the fern roots 229 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: sculptures and not the other way around. Furthermore, they're actually 230 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: only a handful of specimens of these sculptures, so that 231 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: they are a little, you know, quadrupedal animal looking things. 232 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: Somebody has clearly made out of this this fern rizome 233 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: with the stems cut to look like legs of a 234 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: sheep or a dog or something. But are we sure, 235 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: I mean, so we have like four or five of these, 236 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: maybe maybe in total. Are we sure they were ever 237 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: widespread enough to have given rise to this story? But 238 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: then so these are I think the more minor concerns. 239 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: League gets to the really serious objections to this explanation 240 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 1: after this. First of all, he says, these ferns do 241 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 1: not grow in in the land that was then known 242 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: as Tartari. So Tartari again was the more northern part 243 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: of the Asian Mainland at the time. These plants are 244 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: from the southern part of the Asian Mayland. They're from 245 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: like parts of northeastern India, and they're from southern China 246 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: and like I believe, the Malaysian Peninsula. So this would 247 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: have the legends sourcing them in the wrong place. And 248 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: also the fern in no way really matches the botanical 249 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: properties of the plant described in the stories, except that 250 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: it is downy uh. So it's said to grow from 251 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: a seed that is like a gourd or a melon. 252 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: Ferns are nothing like this. They don't grow from a 253 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: seed like a cord or a melon. Furthermore, some of 254 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: the legends say that these seeds were deliberately planted by 255 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: the people around, indicating that this plant, whatever it was, 256 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: if it existed, is used in some kind of agriculture, 257 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: and these ferns are not like that. Also, what are 258 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: we to make of the early version of the story, 259 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: like the one told by Sir John Mandeville or the 260 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: person claiming to be Sir John Mandeville saying that, Okay, 261 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: you take one of these gourds, you cut it open, 262 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: and then inside the fruit that's where you find the lamb. 263 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: That that doesn't resemble this fern, you know, animal sculpture 264 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: in any way. And finally, the color thing. The legends 265 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: described the wool of the vegetable lamb as white when 266 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: they mentioned the color at all, and the wooly fibers 267 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: of the fern rhizome are more golden or tan. Yeah, 268 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: I mean you you look at at actual photographs of 269 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: of this fern and it it does it does look 270 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: It looks furry. It looks like alf Hath died and 271 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: ferns Hath sprung from his body, you know. Um. And 272 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: I'll also add that this illustration you shared, uh with 273 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: the stems coming up, this is from philosophical Transactions. Black 274 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: and white illustration. Um, you know these these actually too 275 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: to me anyway, they look kind of like lamb chops. 276 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,479 Speaker 1: The way that they have them angle. There's curvature to them, 277 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: and you do see that curvature in images all of 278 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: the actual fern, the actual wooly fern. But but I 279 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: but I only really draw this comparison when I'm thinking 280 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: about lamb and lamb meat, and I'm looking at these 281 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: two images. I'm not sure if I saw this in 282 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: the wild, I would think, whoa, this is totally the 283 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: body of a of a dead brown sheep. Yeah, if 284 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: it were, I mean, if it were the lamb chops thing, obviously, 285 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: like you're saying, that would have to be subliminal because 286 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: I think these, uh, these these foot stalks here are 287 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: supposed to be the legs of the lamb, like the 288 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: downy part. The rhizome is the body, and then the 289 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: stalks coming off of it are the legs. But yeah, 290 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: they do look like the bones poken out of a 291 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: rack of lamb after the so called french ing has 292 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: done to the bones. But but certainly the whole thing 293 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: with if you cut into the riizume, you're not gonna 294 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: find blood, You're not gonna find bones, and and so forth. 295 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, that that doesn't hold up at all. So anyway, 296 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: Lee summarizes by saying, even if I had no better 297 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: explanation to offer, I should be led to the conclusion 298 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: that the identification of these tawny toy dogs made in 299 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: China from the root of a wild fern, the spores 300 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: of which are as small as dust, with the vegetable 301 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: lambs of Scythia that being another name for this another 302 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: name used for this region known as Tartari, you know, 303 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: the Central Asian kind of region whose white fleeces were 304 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: found within the ripe and opening fruit of a cultivated 305 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: plant raised from a large seed was obviously erroneous, and 306 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: that the origin of the rumor must be sought for elsewhere. 307 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: And you know what I'm gonna say, I agree. But 308 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: Lee has another explanation, and I think he he offers 309 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: some pretty compelling evidence that this is the right one. 310 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: The other explanation is that the lamb of Tartari legend 311 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: originates from a confused string of misinterpretations of observations of 312 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: the cotton plant. That's right, because what do we have 313 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: with cotton while we have pods ripening and opening to 314 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: reveal wool essentially, or something very similar to wool. And 315 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: this lines up very closely, you know, with with what 316 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: we see in the net as well. Um Lee throws 317 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: this back to the to the writings of Herodotus and Theophrastus, 318 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: whose whose writings do seem to describe something like cotton um. Herodotus, 319 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: writing in the fifth century BC, on a plant found 320 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: in India, says, quote and further, there are trees which 321 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: grow wild. They're the fruit of which is a wool 322 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: exceeding in beauty and goodness that of sheep. The natives 323 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 1: make their clothes of this tree wool, right, Okay, So 324 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: this is a mysterious plant to Herodotus because he comes 325 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: from you know this, He comes from a culture in 326 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: which cotton is not normally known. So he says, you know, 327 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: I've read reports that something's going on in India where 328 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: they can grow sheep's wool out of fruits on trees. 329 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: I don't know how they do that, but it's it's 330 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: really good wool. Another quote from Herodotus. This is in 331 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: chapter forty seven of the same work. He tells a 332 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: story about a corselate that was sent as a gift 333 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: by King Almost the second of Egypt to Sparta, and 334 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: he says that it was quote ornamented with gold and 335 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: fleeces from the trees, and in Lee's explanation, this probably 336 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: means it was padded with cotton that had been acquired 337 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: from the cotton plant fleeces from the trees. Lee also 338 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: cites the ancient Greek writer Tsus that's usually spelled c t. E. 339 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: S I s quote tass also, who was the contemporary 340 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: of Herodotus and was made prisoner and kept by the 341 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: king of Persia as his court physician for seventeen years, 342 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: was acquainted with the use of a kind of wool, 343 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: the produce of trees for spinning and weaving amongst the 344 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: natives of India. For he mentions in his Indica a 345 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 1: fragment quoted by Photius quote tree garments, and that he 346 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: thus referred to clothing made from these tree fleeces. We 347 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: have testimony of Vero quote t z says that there 348 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: are in India trees that bear wool. And and also 349 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: one of Alexander the Great's military commanders named ni Arcus 350 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,959 Speaker 1: apparently spoke with wonder about trees in India that somehow 351 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: bore wool like sheep, which was of a surpassing whiteness. Theophrastus, 352 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: on the other hand, uh shares the following about the 353 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: island of Tylos in the Persian Gulf. Quote, wool bearing 354 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: trees which grow there abundantly have leaves like the vine, 355 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: but smaller. They bear no fruit, but the pod containing 356 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: the wolves about the size of an apple while it 357 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: is closed, and when it is ripe it opens. The 358 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: wool is then gathered from it and woven into clothes 359 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: of various qualities, some inferior, but others of great value. 360 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: And Gruba says that the word Theophrastus uses for apple, 361 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: um milan, is also used for sheep. Oh, you can 362 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: immediately see how that would perhaps cause some confusion. Yea. 363 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: Now there's another thing League gets into where I feel 364 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: I need to quote for from him directly for his 365 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: comments on our old friend Plenty, the elder, whom he 366 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: blames for a literary blunder that introduces one of the 367 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: main components of the medieval version of the legend. So 368 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: this is this is the characterizing Plenty, he says. Then 369 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: comes Plenty, who incompetent and worthless as a naturalist, though 370 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: admirable as a writer, obscured this subject, as he did 371 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: many others. In his Natural History, he mentions cotton in 372 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: four different paragraphs, and in every one of them inaccurate. 373 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: He confuses cotton with flax, and the fabrics woven of 374 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: it with linen, and treats of silk as a downy 375 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: substance scraped from the leaves of trees, And in transcribing 376 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: or translating the passage from Theophrastus relating to the wool 377 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: bearing trees, he distorts the author's words and states that 378 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: quote these trees bear gords the size of a quints, 379 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: which burst when ripe, and display balls of wool out 380 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: of which the inhabitants make cloths like valuable linen. Plenty 381 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: therefore seems to have been the author of the gord 382 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: portion of the story, which afterwards obtained currency in Western Europe. Okay, So, 383 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: going all the way back to John Mandeville, I remember 384 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: he's writing about the gurtyes the gourds. Uh that Lee 385 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: makes a pretty compelling case here that this is just 386 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: a result of plenty of the elder mistranslating the work 387 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: of another ancient historian. So in all kinds of ancient 388 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: Greek and Roman literature, you have people who are not 389 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: very familiar or not at all familiar with the cotton 390 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: plant or with textiles made from it. So you can 391 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: imagine their confusion if they say, visit India and see 392 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: what you see what's being done with cotton there, or 393 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: if they encounter a garment brought from India, they would 394 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: be like, huh, so there, wait, there's a sheep in 395 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: this tree, or the tree is growing wool somehow, Like 396 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: it's kind of like trying to imagine a tree growing 397 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: meat or giving milk. Yeah, And it kind of goes 398 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: back to what we were talking thinking about in the 399 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: last episode. If you're if you're not aware of the 400 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: actual gulf between the development of mammals and plants, you 401 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: might encounter something like this and think, well, you know 402 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: wolf wolf from trees, Well what else is possible? But 403 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: I do really like this theory, and I think it 404 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: does match up with everything we know about about cotton 405 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: plants as well, because you know, briefly, accounts of cotton 406 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: plants goes back, uh, these accounts go back quarte aways 407 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,959 Speaker 1: at least to Neolithic sites and what is now Indian 408 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: Pakistan uh five thousand, five hundred b c E as 409 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: a date that is frequently given out. Evidence of cotton 410 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: usage even dates back a good five thousand years in Mesoamerica, 411 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: but it wasn't until the late medieval period that cotton 412 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: became known off in Europe, and its exact origin wasn't 413 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: understood at first, other than it came from a plant. 414 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: Here is something like wool and it comes from a plant. Yeah, 415 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, I feel like this theory seems quite sensible. 416 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: You can imagine how these accounts would have drifted and 417 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: grown as they were related from individual to individual, from 418 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: book to book, from language to language, translation and this 419 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: translation in place, etcetera. Yeah. Lee. Lee argues that the 420 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: legend arises from embellishment of stories originally based upon ambiguity 421 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: or confusion in literary sources, and this has two major factors. 422 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: One is the misinterpretation of ambiguous or figurative language, and 423 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: the other is the superficial visual similarity of two completely 424 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: different objects. And so the direct linguistic example Lee gives 425 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: is that, okay, what you originally have his reports by 426 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: people like Herodotus and others of a plant that quote 427 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: bore as its fruit fleeces which surpassed those of lambs 428 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: in beauty and excellence. And this was soon paraphrased and 429 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: garbled by other authors as quote a plant bearing fruit 430 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: within which was a little lamb having a fleece of 431 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: surpassing beauty and excellence. So the fact that there is 432 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: in India actually a tree with pods that bear wool 433 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: gets paraphrase is mistranslated, embellished into all these other stories 434 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: a plant that's got gourds that's got lambs in them, 435 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: or perhaps it merged with the pre existing weird stories 436 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: about a ferocious beast who is tied to the ground 437 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: by a stem that attached to the navel. Well, what 438 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: if that beast was actually one of these these lamb 439 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: plants or these sheep plants, and that's where the wool 440 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: comes from. So even though Lee was writing in the 441 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: eighteen eighties, I think this ideology of the legend still 442 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: holds up pretty well. It seems totally plausible to me, 443 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: absolutely than now. Originally I was thinking about getting into 444 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: related creatures of myth and legend here, and I do, 445 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: and I think we're going to save exploration of other 446 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: specimens for for later perhaps, But I do want to 447 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: read just a quick quote from from jore Louis Borges 448 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: and his Book of Imaginary Beings. He says, we might 449 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: recall all another such case, that of the man drake 450 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: or Manda goa, which screams like a man when it 451 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: is pulled from the ground. There is also in one 452 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: of the circles of Hell that's sad forest of suicides, 453 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: from whose quote broken splints come words and blood at once. 454 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: And that tree dreamed by Chesterton, which devoured the birds 455 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: that nested in its branches, and which put out feathers 456 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: instead of leaves when springtime came. That's that's a great book, 457 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: by the way, the Book of Imaginary Beings, and he 458 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: chronicles several different um beasts that were dreamed by various 459 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: writers that he was familiar with. Uh, you know, which 460 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: makes sense. Borges was was very interested in dreams as 461 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: well as creatures and and mazes and daggers and so forth. Uh. 462 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: But I think we might be able to come back 463 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: and do something on the man Drake. I was doing 464 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: some more reading on that, and I was like, well, this, 465 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: this too may have legs and demand its own episode. Now, 466 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: one thing was to tease in the last episode that 467 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to get to as well, is the idea 468 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: of of this well, the well, the vegetable lamb, the 469 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: vegetable lamb of carterari will it ever become a reality? Now, 470 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: on one level, we have to say, yeah, no matter 471 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: how like mad science e or mad science ideas are. 472 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: I think the the idea of say, genetically engineering a 473 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: plant that grows a fully bodied sheep is ridiculous. I 474 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: mean again, we come back to that gulf between these organisms, right, 475 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: and also like, why would you do that growing a 476 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: fully formed lamb that had like a brain and was 477 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: grazing on the plants around it. Well, it's mad science. Yeah, okay, okay, 478 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: but so mad's assuming you just want to do it 479 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: for the heck of it. Even then, I'm skeptical that 480 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: that will ever happen, or or alien mad scientists. They 481 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: just read plenty and they think this is what's up. 482 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: But so we can set that aside, I think. But 483 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: you know, it is interesting though from a modern perspective, 484 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: we have to to ponder the fact that okay, we're 485 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: talking about this vegetable lamb and well, we are seeing 486 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: some amazing advancements in recent decades, in recent years concerning 487 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: flesh that feels very much at home in the imagined 488 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: gardens of tartary. For starters, there's of course the realm 489 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: of plant based meat alternatives. Now, the practice of using 490 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: plant products to simulate meat is of course nothing new 491 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: and can be found in various cultures. Because remember, while 492 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: while modern cuisines are sometimes based on meat for every meal, uh, 493 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: this is not the sort of thing that traditional societies 494 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: could necessarily depend on. Certainly, you can you can find 495 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: some instances of say Arctic cultures that depend quite heavily 496 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: on meat. But other times, like meat is something that 497 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: is a part of a diet that otherwise has a 498 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: lot of uh, fruits and vegetables in it, and uh, 499 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: and you're not gonna necessarily have that kill, have that 500 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: meat that's going to be a part of your diet 501 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: day to day. Yeah, for a number of reasons. Many 502 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: of them are economic. Yeah. Yeah. So for starters, I 503 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: guess we should point out that various fruits and vegetables 504 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: have long been prized for their meat like textures, even 505 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: if they're they're not being overtly described as such, And 506 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get into a lot of detail in 507 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: these because it becomes more complicated nailing down meat substitute 508 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: definitions with foods that are not themselves food products. For instance, 509 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: if you cook an eggplant or jackfruit the right way, 510 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: prepare it the right way, you get some strong meat vibes. 511 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: But I'm not sure we can really classify a culinary 512 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: process like that as something that is that can be 513 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: defined clearly as a meat substitute. Yeah, And I don't 514 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: know how often some of these substances that are considered 515 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: meat substitutes in in in dishes today how often they 516 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: were originally thought of that way. Like there's a lot 517 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: of uses of say tofu in Chinese cuisine that seemed 518 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: to me to indicate that it's not being treated as 519 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: just like, well, here's an alternative to meat. It's it's 520 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: a food in its own right. It's just a food 521 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: like any other food that has its own qualities that 522 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: are prized. And uh, I feel like I can appreciate 523 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: it that way. But I know a lot of times 524 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: Americans might think of tofu as like, Okay, this is 525 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: something you have instead of meat, right, And I think 526 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: with the tofu example, Um, you know when you're talking, 527 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: you know we're talking about tofu, We're talking about coagulated 528 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: soy milk, So you know it's soy being based and 529 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: it's thought to date back about two thousand years to China. 530 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: And so you you have something that you know, even 531 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: if you're definitely classifying it as a meat substitute, it 532 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's going to be in a dish 533 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: that's devoid of meat. You look at a lot of 534 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: Chinese traditional Chinese dishes and they have a lot of 535 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: ingredients and sometimes there may be a little bit of 536 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: meat in there. If you had meat, you might throw 537 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: it in just because it's going to add the flavor 538 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: and all. But it's not you know, it's not going 539 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: to be a just a big old, necessarily a big 540 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: old chunk of meat out there on the plate. We 541 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: we get into this a bit in our Invention episode 542 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: on chopsticks and my chopsticks were so well utilized at 543 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: least four various Chinese cuisines within a large portion of 544 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: Chinese history. I think I've gone on record on the 545 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 1: show before about my love of mapo tofu. It's one 546 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: of my favorite dishes. But yeah, most of the time 547 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: there's gonna be some kind of meat in it, So 548 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: if you're like a vegetarian, be checked beforehand. Mhm. Tofu 549 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: of course can be super delicious. I just had some 550 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: last night. Um. It was it was It would have 551 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: been marinated and then it had also have been battered, 552 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: and then I it was fried up. It was super good, 553 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: headed on like on buns like a burger. Now some 554 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: other of the main UH meat substitutes out there, We 555 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: of course have satan um and that is the gluten 556 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: based meat alternative that dates back probably to sixth century China. 557 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: We have tempe. This is a fermented soybean cake and 558 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: while the details of its origin are are seemed to 559 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: be subject to debate. It seems to have originated in Indonesia, 560 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: but the time period varies from centuries ago to thousands 561 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: of years ago. UH, and I'm not sure exactly what 562 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: the predominant theory is there in Chinese traditions. We also 563 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: have mocked duck. This is um a fake duck meat. 564 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: That's another gluten based product that I believe dates back 565 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: to medieval China. Have you had mocked duck before, Joe, 566 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: I have not. It can be quite good. I've had 567 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: it before where I was like, this is great, I 568 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: look forward to having more of it, and I've had 569 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: it before to where I'm like, I'm not so certain 570 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: about this mock duck, but it I have had it 571 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: before where it's really good. Yeah, you can frequently purchase it. 572 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: I've never prepared anything with it myself. You can get 573 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: it like in cans, so suffice to say, yes, you can. 574 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: You know, we've we've long known that you can take 575 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: plants and things derived from plants, and you can make 576 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: things that that scratch your itch for uh for for 577 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: actually consuming meat. But of course today we have a 578 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: number of more technologically advanced examples. You know, we have 579 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: artificial plant based meats such as you know Beyond Meat. 580 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: Uh that's a company that makes beef, pork, and poultry substitutes. 581 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: You have Impossible Meat that I think it's mostly known 582 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: for the impossible burger. Um. Beyond Meat, I've read is 583 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: based on p protein, rice protein, mung bean protein, and 584 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: various other plant products, including red beet juice, which is 585 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: interested to give it the kind of bloody consistency simulate 586 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: the mya globin. Yeah, and then impossible. Meat is based 587 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: on the the hem hem molecule precursor to hemoglobin, and 588 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: processing various plant ingredients to replicate it. But then there's 589 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: this and then those those products are fine. I've I've 590 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: greatly enjoyed, uh, some of these plant based meat alternatives, 591 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: especially of late. But then there's this realm beyond the 592 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 1: realm of cultivated or cultured or cell based meats in 593 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: which actual animal cells are grown in a lab setting. Right, 594 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: So this would be talking about actually like the cells 595 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: themselves are animal muscle cells, but they're not growing in 596 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: an animal's body. They're just growing on some other substrate 597 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: right now. To be clear, they're not growing on plants. 598 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: I'm not not some suggesting that, but but it's not. 599 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: It's not merely a fact of it resembling meat or 600 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: tasting like meat. It is meat, it is, but it 601 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: is meat that has grown in like a lab setting, 602 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: as opposed to you know, growing as part of an 603 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: organism in a domestic or wild scenario. I've been reading 604 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: about this in in bits and pieces from years and 605 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: always very interested in it, uh, And I hadn't checked 606 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: in in a while to see like what the what 607 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 1: the recent progress on this kind of stuff is well, 608 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: there seems to be a lot of movement and there's 609 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: been a lot of funding that has gone into it. Um. 610 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: I think some of the big questions are going to 611 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, how does this actually roll out as 612 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: a commercial um product? Uh, you know, at what point 613 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: we reach this this place in its development where it's 614 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: truly economically feasible and so forth? And these are concerns 615 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: with any kind of innovation, right. We've talked about that 616 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: before on invention, like it's one thing to create the thing, 617 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: but then how does it become affordable and desired, et cetera. Yeah, 618 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: but I was reading about this a little bit so 619 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: it was curious what the latest was. And for instance, 620 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: there's a company in Australia called Vowel Foods. I was 621 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: reading about them on the Conversation in an article by 622 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: Catherine Wynne and Michelle coal Grave and they're already growing pork, chicken, kangaroo, 623 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: alpaca and water buffalo. Now none of this is commercially 624 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: available yet, but it gives you a taste of what's possible. 625 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: I've also read about li lion meat being produced in 626 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: such a manner by by a different company, because I 627 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: guess the thing is, it's all on the table if 628 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: the meat is sourced from a lab rather than a 629 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: farm or the wild. Oh yeah, I mean you don't 630 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: even normally think about eating like land carnivore meat. No, 631 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: And I can't. I can't imagine i'd want to. Um, 632 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: But I can see I can see the strategy here, 633 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: like the you want to get people interested in the 634 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: novel aspect of it. You know, someone who might not otherwise, 635 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: like why would I Why would I go out and 636 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: have a a lab grown hamburger when I can have 637 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: a hamburger from the wild. But if you offer them 638 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: a lion burger, like what's their alternative, They're gonna go 639 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: out and they're gonna kill their own lion. They're gonna 640 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: get lion meat on the black market. Interesting. Um and 641 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: and there it does seem like there are a number 642 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: of an Australian companies that are involved in this too. 643 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: Um so so. Companies like this are using some of 644 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: the same bio manufacturing technologies that have been used in 645 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical industry for years and again they've garnered a 646 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: lot of investment, especially in recent years, and some of 647 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,439 Speaker 1: the outline. Questions, you know, come down to just how 648 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: economically feasible does this become does it become desirable by 649 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: the population at large, in the same way that plant 650 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: based meats seem to be becoming. Uh so, how fast 651 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: can you can you grow like large masses of meat 652 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: from these starting cell cultures? Yeah, exactly. As for the taste, 653 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: I have to stress I have not tried any of 654 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: these myself. I have not had the opportunity to. But 655 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: accounts i've read UM by such such as documentary and 656 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: Liz Marshall, who did a documentary titled Meet the Future 657 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: with meat spelled like meat kay uh. You know, she 658 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: says that that it is meat and it tastes like meat, 659 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: So it's not particularly surprising. I've seen some other people 660 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: weighing in where like, Okay, maybe you can get into 661 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: questions of texture, but for the most part, like it's meat, 662 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: it tastes like meat. One of the things I read 663 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,399 Speaker 1: about UM that this would have been many years ago now, 664 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: but like some early prototypes of this, we're people trying 665 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: to make a lab grown burger. And one of the 666 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: main comments was that like, in many ways it tasted right, 667 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: but it didn't have the fat content wasn't quite right yet. 668 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: Um though I think that's the kind of thing that 669 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: seems like that be pretty easy to get around. Yeah. 670 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: Now as far as actual lamb and sheep meat goes, 671 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: because we are talking about the vegetable lamb of Tardari 672 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: after all. Uh, you know, lamb is is a mammal 673 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: meat that many find quite delicious. And I have to 674 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: say back when I ate mammal meat, I was really 675 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: partial to a particular lamb Tajian stew, so so definitely 676 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: it can be super delicious. Uh. And it's an animal 677 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: that has a fairly large carbon footprint. So if you 678 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: could find a way to produce that meat without you know, 679 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: having to to have the end of the same environmental 680 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: uh impact, then that would that would make a lot 681 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: of sense. Yeah. And so at first I was thinking, 682 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: I was looking around and I wasn't finding anything, and 683 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, maybe the the age of the 684 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: vegetable lamb of Tartari coming more to fruition is and 685 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: we're just not there yet. But as reported by Jennifer 686 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: Marston on The Spoon that's the spoon dot Tech, which 687 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: is like a really cool looking like news blog about 688 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: food technologies. According to Marston, here in one the Australian 689 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: cultivated meat company Magic Valley dubbed itself quote the world's 690 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: first cultured lamb company. Uh so that they're they're saying, 691 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: this is it. We are going to be the ones 692 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: that that grow the sheep um. She also writes that 693 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,919 Speaker 1: while lamb consumption in the United States has been down 694 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: in recent years, there's still a big market for it 695 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,280 Speaker 1: in many countries, so it makes sense for a company 696 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: like this to to, you know, to stake their claim 697 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: to the lab grown lamb meat of the future. So again, 698 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,760 Speaker 1: I have not actually tried any of these, um, these 699 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: cultured or cultivated meats, but I would love to have 700 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: the opportunity to do so. I find this research very exciting. 701 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: I think there's still a lot of questions about like 702 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: where where will ultimately get to with these technologies, but 703 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of a lot of movement 704 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 1: behind them, so I'm excited to see where it goes. 705 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: I agree it is very exciting. One one kind of 706 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: wants to be the John Mandeville of the future that says, 707 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: I ate one of the lambs and it was delicious, 708 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: Except this lamb was grown in a lab instead of 709 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: inside a gourd. Now, one thing I wonder about. Okay, 710 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 1: so we we we see that they're already thinking about 711 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: what are all the exotic animals of the natural world 712 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 1: that people might wish to to eat that they normally 713 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't have access to. Will we go a step beyond? 714 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: Will we see chimeras? Will you be able to buy, say, 715 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: manticore meat? Will you be able to eat dinosaur meat? Oh? Yeah, 716 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: well I guess you already do if you eat chicken. 717 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,240 Speaker 1: But it's true people are having their their dining nuggies 718 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: regularly already. But but yeah, well what else is possible? 719 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: Willie mammoth steak? Wow? M So somehow imagine that'd be 720 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 1: quite gamy anyway, Should we wrap up there? Yeah, yeah, 721 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,399 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and call it for this episode. But yeah, 722 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot we could continue to discuss, just 723 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: in like the related realm of you know, things like 724 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: the man drake. Uh. But then also we could we 725 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: could easily go back to our previous discussion about plant intelligence, 726 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: plant memory, plant communication and explore this topic more so. 727 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: In the meantime, we'd love to hear from everyone out there. 728 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: Would you like to hear more on this matter or 729 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: related matters. Is there a particular direction you would like 730 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: to see us go in? Just write in and let 731 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 1: us know uh. In the meantime, you can listen to 732 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind in the 733 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,399 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed we have our 734 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: core episodes there on Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener mail on Mondays, 735 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: a short form artifact or monster fact on Wednesday, and 736 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: on Friday we do Weird How Cinema. That's our time 737 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: to set aside most important matters and just focus on 738 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: a weird film, huge things. As always to our excellent 739 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to 740 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,720 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 741 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest topic for the future, or 742 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 743 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to 744 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For 745 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, this is the I 746 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to 747 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: your favorite shows