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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I

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Speaker 1: will be your hostess today Emily Simpson with my co

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Speaker 1: host Jane And I have to say, I am so,

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Speaker 1: so super excited because I am sitting here next to

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Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, and I have to tell you, I don't

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Speaker 1: get starstruck very often, like at all. I've been on

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Speaker 1: reality TV for years and years, but sitting across from

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Speaker 1: you is such a full circle moment. First of all, well,

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Speaker 1: I graduated from law school in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 1: and then everything that happened with you is in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven, so well, you were newly aware I

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Speaker 1: was an attorney, so I was following it. And then

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Speaker 1: I'd say, maybe, I don't know how long ago, maybe

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Speaker 1: like six or seven years ago, I went to LA

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Speaker 1: and I saw you speak.

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Speaker 2: Might have been it might have been about ten years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure with context, I don't remember exactly,

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Speaker 1: but it was for mcl credit and you were speaking

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Speaker 1: somewhere in LA and I went and I just I

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Speaker 1: found you so compelling and interesting and I didn't get

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to meet you. And this was prior to

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Speaker 1: doing a podcast, and all these things. So having you

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Speaker 1: sitting next to me, I feel like it's just like this,

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Speaker 1: like it was meant to be.

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Speaker 3: Like it's a full circle moment. I wish to get you.

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Speaker 1: I don't have to do any episodes, all right, Well,

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Speaker 1: let's just do a little background on you for our

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Speaker 1: viewers or for our listeners. Amanda Knox is an American author, journalist,

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Speaker 1: and public speaker who was wrongfully convicted of murdering her

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Speaker 1: roommate Meredith Kircher while studying abroad in Italy back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. Amanda spent nearly four years in

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Speaker 1: prison before Italy's highest court exonerated her back in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Since her release, Amanda has become an advocate for criminal

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Speaker 1: justice reform and media ethics. Most recently, and this is important, guys,

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Speaker 1: because if you haven't watched this yet, Amanda teamed up

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Speaker 1: with Monica Lewinsky to produce Hulu's The Twisted Tale of

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Speaker 1: Amanda Knox. And I will have to tell you I've

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Speaker 1: watched all of it except for the finale episode. It

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Speaker 1: is amazing, Like it is truly so well done.

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Speaker 3: Because I have watched.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about prior to recording this but we

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Speaker 1: were having a conversation where I said, I've watched every

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Speaker 1: documentary about you that's out there, and I feel like

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Speaker 1: I get pieces here and there, and I learn a

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Speaker 1: little bit more when I watch this documentary or I'll

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Speaker 1: see something else and I'm like, oh, I didn't know that,

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Speaker 1: and I learned a bit a little bit more. But

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Speaker 1: actually watching this Hulu series, I feel like I finally

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Speaker 1: have a full picture of everything that happened, of everything

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Speaker 1: you went through. I have a deeper understanding of Raphael

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Speaker 1: and who he is, and his family and how they

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Speaker 1: were affected, and those are all the things that don't

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Speaker 1: show up in a documentary.

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Speaker 2: So it's truly truly was it then, so that people

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Speaker 2: trying to put it together, well, you were actually in it?

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Speaker 4: I think yeah. I think that's one aspect to it.

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Speaker 4: And it's something that Monica and I are really trying

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Speaker 4: to push the Hollywood industry to to really embrace, is

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Speaker 4: the idea that like the source can be a create,

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Speaker 4: like a can can bring creative input. It's not just

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Speaker 4: there to like authenticate everything, but really to have a

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Speaker 4: creative voice. And that's something you know that I'm eternally

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Speaker 4: grateful to everyone we worked with on this show that

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Speaker 4: they actually treated me like a legitimate creative partner. And

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Speaker 4: it's true, like there's the show does something that a

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Speaker 4: documentary is not going to do, because a documentary is

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Speaker 4: interested in you know, journalistic you know, investigation into a case,

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Speaker 4: and so they're they're focused on the case and there

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Speaker 4: it's less about the humanity of the people who happen

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Speaker 4: to be the subject of those facts. And so what

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Speaker 4: the Hulu series attempts to do is it's it's it's

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Speaker 4: going to ping all those all those true crime fans

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Speaker 4: out there who are like interested in like the intricacies

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Speaker 4: of the case, like it's still there.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's fair, it's fairly.

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Speaker 4: But on top of that, there is like human stories

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Speaker 4: that you wouldn't otherwise get, like that relationship that I

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Speaker 4: developed with my prosecutor, which has nothing to technically to

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Speaker 4: do with the case. It's it's a personal story to me, Like,

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Speaker 4: as somebody who has gone through this terrible experience, how

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Speaker 4: do I make sense of it? And what do I

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Speaker 4: do about it? Once I finally have my freedom and

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Speaker 4: my agency back that was stolen from me, and so

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Speaker 4: what what do I do with it? When it's returned

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Speaker 4: to me. And then you know, there are other aspects

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Speaker 4: of it, Like you mentioned raphae La. One of this

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Speaker 4: one of my things that was really important to me

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Speaker 4: in depicting this show is like when raphae La and

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Speaker 4: I met, Like this was five days before the crime occurred,

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Speaker 4: so like we were at the very beginning of like

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Speaker 4: what was going to be what you know, what you

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Speaker 4: see in the the romance movies of like the blossoming

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Speaker 4: of this like beautiful young love relationship. And then we

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Speaker 4: go through this nightmare together and what that does to

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Speaker 4: two young people who care about each other, Like it

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Speaker 4: tears it us apart, it puts us back together, but

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Speaker 4: in a completely new way and with all of our

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Speaker 4: broken pieces. And so I'm really excited you'll. I can't

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Speaker 4: wait for you to see the final episode.

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Speaker 2: It's eight parts.

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Speaker 4: It's eight parts. And I co wrote the final episode

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Speaker 4: with the creator and showrunner kJ Steinberg, who I have

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Speaker 4: to shout out, like if no one in like if

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Speaker 4: no one's heard of kJ Steinberg, Like I hope everyone

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Speaker 4: recognizes her after this because she was incredible. She I mean,

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Speaker 4: you followed the story, like you know how convoluted it

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Speaker 4: is and how like so many twists and turns, and

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Speaker 4: like you know, crazy things come up, and she had

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Speaker 4: to like really sift through all of that and make

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Speaker 4: sense of it and turn it into something that, again

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Speaker 4: the true crime fanatics can enjoy, but also just anyone

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Speaker 4: who's a human being could relate to.

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Speaker 1: Well, for me, it's the perfect amount of both, because

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you I'm a true crime fanatic. My husband

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Speaker 1: will tell you, I mean is acat I turns out?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean anytime I do watch what Happens

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Speaker 1: Live or anything, They're like, tell us what reality shows

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Speaker 1: you watch.

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, I don't I watch? I mean I watch.

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Speaker 3: I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I watch Forensic Files that night to go to bed,

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Speaker 1: like this is what I watch. So for me, your

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Speaker 1: series was so good because it was it is true crime.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you follow the story from the beginning to

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Speaker 1: the end, with the court case, with everything going on,

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Speaker 1: so you do satisfy that need. But then when I

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Speaker 1: watch a documentary, I'm always left thinking, well, what happened?

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Speaker 3: Do they still talk?

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Speaker 1: How what's her? What does her mom think about all

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Speaker 1: of this? I was always wondering about your mom.

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Speaker 4: Was Monica's Like, Like when Monica first reached out to

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Speaker 4: me to do this project. Like her big thing was, like,

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Speaker 4: what we think of when we think of a shamed

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Speaker 4: person that's in the public imagination, is we only think

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Speaker 4: of that one person. We think of them as like

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Speaker 4: like this isolated incident, and no, like they're a human

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Speaker 4: being who belongs to people, and the bad stuff that

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Speaker 4: happens to them also happens to everyone that they love

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Speaker 4: who's trying to Like.

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Speaker 2: You're right, when you see the news or documentary what

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Speaker 2: you just see someone in shackles, for lack of better words,

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Speaker 2: and you just kind of think it's just them, it's

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Speaker 2: just them that that's on the stand, right, But really

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Speaker 2: it's everything else. Everyone around them is shaty.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I brought up her mom, because I think,

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Speaker 1: when I watch your series, I have children, So I'm

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Speaker 1: not even relating to you as much as I'm relating

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Speaker 1: to your mother. Yeah, And that's why I feel so

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Speaker 1: deeply connected to her. That's why I asked her, not

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Speaker 1: your mom, but I asked how she was. I love

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Speaker 1: to I felt such a connection to your mother because

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Speaker 1: I thought I have a daughter, she's twelve, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: if my daughter is studying abroad, I would do this.

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Speaker 3: I would be on a plane, I would I would

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Speaker 3: be there. I would be.

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Speaker 1: Saying all the same things that she's saying and annoying

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Speaker 1: you the same ways that she annoyed you. I would

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Speaker 1: be doing all of those things. And I felt I

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Speaker 1: could feel her heart, Like how how horrible that was

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Speaker 1: for her to go through that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know that's something that I think people underestimate

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Speaker 4: in this story, is like even just how much of

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Speaker 4: the story is my mom's story? Right, Like, Okay, I

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Speaker 4: was a twenty year old kid, a naive, you know,

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Speaker 4: something really bad happened to me when I'm studying abroad.

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Speaker 4: But like my mom was only forty five when this happened,

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Speaker 4: and she also was in a way like this was

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Speaker 4: a growing up experience for my mom as well, Like

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Speaker 4: talk about like the worst thing that you could possibly think,

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Speaker 4: like like two young girls go to study abroad and

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Speaker 4: only one of them survives, and the one of them

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Speaker 4: that survives is in prisonly facing the rest of her

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Speaker 4: life in the visa so far away, and like what

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Speaker 4: do you do? And like as a mom, as a mom,

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Speaker 4: like I'm a mom, now I know that what my

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Speaker 4: mom went through was worse than what I went through.

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Speaker 4: She would have traded places with me in prison in

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Speaker 4: a second, but she couldn't. She had to leave me

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Speaker 4: there every single time she went to visit me, and

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Speaker 4: there was only so much that she could do. She

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Speaker 4: was in so many ways like the world was on

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Speaker 4: her shoulders and she had to figure it out. But

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Speaker 4: also there was only so much she could do, and

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Speaker 4: so she was helpless and juggling that feeling and then

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Speaker 4: also trying to be a mom to her other daughter,

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Speaker 4: who is like trying to navigate. Like this whole thing

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Speaker 4: is like such a human story with so many different elements,

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Speaker 4: and I'm so glad that, like again, my creative partners

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Speaker 4: in this project really appreciated and valued and pushed to

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Speaker 4: have that be a part of it.

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Speaker 1: How did you and Monica get connected? So I did

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Speaker 1: say that she called you, So did that come out

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Speaker 1: of the blue? Had you never met her before?

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Speaker 3: And all, oh no, no, no, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.

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Speaker 4: I've known her since twenty seventeen. So the documentary about

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Speaker 4: my case on Netflix came out in twenty sixteen, and

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Speaker 4: as a result of that, it was actually that documentary

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Speaker 4: was the sort of shifted the conversation or at least

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Speaker 4: public perception around me a little bit, so that people

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Speaker 4: started to think, oh, maybe, just maybe this girl is

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Speaker 4: innocent and has like a story to tell of her own.

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Speaker 4: And so I was invited to give a public talk

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Speaker 4: for the first time, and I was I accepted, but

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Speaker 4: I was really really scared.

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Speaker 3: Now was this in Italy?

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Speaker 4: No, it was not in Italy. This was in Seattle,

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Speaker 4: And it was funny. It was for this like conference

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Speaker 4: where the theme of the conference was controversy, and so

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Speaker 4: the person invited a lot of people who had controversies

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Speaker 4: around them and so invited me. I was the low

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Speaker 4: controversy kids in Seattle. But also Monica Winsky was invited

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Speaker 4: among a number of other people. And when I heard

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Speaker 4: that she was going to be there, I asked the

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Speaker 4: organizer if they could put me in touch, because, you know,

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Speaker 4: after coming out of prison, it's not like I just

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Speaker 4: got my life back. You know, I'm still you know,

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Speaker 4: to this day, I'm still the girl accused of murder.

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Speaker 4: And I carry the stigma of that accusation everywhere I

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Speaker 4: go because I did not exist in the public imagination

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Speaker 4: until I was existing in the most horrible way possible.

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Speaker 4: Like all people know me, and also like it's the

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Speaker 4: it's very likely going to only be the only thing

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Speaker 4: anybody knows me for, because like, how could I possibly

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Speaker 4: accomplish anything in this world that could define me more

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Speaker 4: than this thing that was global and for you know,

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Speaker 4: nearly a decade defined me and defined my life that

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Speaker 4: it was something I had nothing to do with. So like,

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Speaker 4: I was just overwhelmed by this feeling, and especially because

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Speaker 4: you know, even after I got home, people were still

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Speaker 4: calling me a psychopath who got away with murder. People

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Speaker 4: were telling me to shut up and disappear, and like

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Speaker 4: there was this constant sort of energy towards me of like, well,

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Speaker 4: you know, you're not the true victim because your roommate

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Speaker 4: was the one who was murdered, so you should just

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Speaker 4: shut up and be grateful that you're alive. And and

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Speaker 4: like just like this really like cruel energy toward me

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Speaker 4: that was certainly like wanting to just put me down.

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Speaker 4: And you know, something my husband has been you know,

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Speaker 4: to this day, this is something I deal with. My

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Speaker 4: husband really pushes back and goes well until we change

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Speaker 4: every single person's mind in the entire world, until there's

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Speaker 4: anyone on this planet who thinks you might have had

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Speaker 4: something to do with your roommate's murder. You have every

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Speaker 4: right to like tell your story again and again and

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Speaker 4: again until it gets into everyone's thick skulls that you

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Speaker 4: had nothing to do with it. You didn't ask for

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Speaker 4: this right.

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Speaker 3: That's a really smart perspective.

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Speaker 2: You're always on the defense.

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Speaker 4: I'm always on the defense, and I am trying to

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Speaker 4: tell a bigger story now because like, coming out of

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Speaker 4: this experience, I didn't know anything about the criminal justice system.

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Speaker 4: I didn't go to law school. I was going to

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Speaker 4: school for creative writing. Like I was the opposite of

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Speaker 4: a true crime nerd. And I came out and was

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Speaker 4: became aware of a whole world of people who have

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Speaker 4: this happened to them that I didn't know. I had

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Speaker 4: no idea, and I didn't know that the things that

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Speaker 4: happened to me in Italy are happening here in the

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Speaker 4: US all the time. I was shocked to discover this,

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Speaker 4: and so I was feeling like this internal compulsion to

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Speaker 4: like tell my story because one of the weird things

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Speaker 4: about my story is that it's almost like a gateway

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Speaker 4: drug for people to get into like criminal justice, like

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Speaker 4: awareness and reform is people think, oh, you know, wrongful

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Speaker 4: convictions happen to other people, but they don't happen to

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Speaker 4: someone like me. And then I came along, you know,

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Speaker 4: the college educated white girl from the suburbs of Seattle. Like,

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Speaker 4: if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone,

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Speaker 4: and it's everyone's problem. So anyway to get back to

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Speaker 4: the story of how I met Monica, I was invited

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Speaker 4: to come speak. I was, you know, finally sort of

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Speaker 4: getting this feeling like I have a story to tell

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Speaker 4: and it's very important. It's not even just about me,

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Speaker 4: but like I had spent my you know, entire adult

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Speaker 4: life with people not believing me, and you know, putting

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Speaker 4: everything I say through like the worst possible filter, always

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Speaker 4: trying to strip me of context, always trying to derive

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Speaker 4: the worst possible thing that anything I say. And so

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Speaker 4: I'm terrified to speak to people. I feel like everyone's

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Speaker 4: just telling me to shut up. And there's like one

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Speaker 4: person in the world who I can imagine knows what

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Speaker 4: that's like and has started to push back. Like this

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Speaker 4: was when Monica was writing the Vanity Fair articles. This

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Speaker 4: was when Monica was doing her Ted talk. She was

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Speaker 4: talking about online bullying of public shaming. So I look

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Speaker 4: to her as like the one exam of somebody who

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Speaker 4: was finally like taking a stand and like demanding a

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Speaker 4: space for her voice. And she was like a model

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Speaker 4: to me. So I reached out to her. She invited

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Speaker 4: me up to her hotel room. She was very nice,

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Speaker 4: she gave me all this like great advice, and then

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Speaker 4: we stayed in contact and we always check in with

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Speaker 4: each other. And then she did Impeachment where she executive

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Speaker 4: produced Impeachment, the story of her experience, and she had

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Speaker 4: learned a lot from doing that, and she was continuing

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Speaker 4: to develop things in Hollywood and she wanted to basically

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Speaker 4: she wanted to like pave the path for another person

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Speaker 4: to come behind her. And that was me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so well that's amazing. So you get a call

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Speaker 1: from her and she's like, let's produce a show.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, she said, would you be interested? Like, I've

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Speaker 4: done this thing, and you know, here's here was what

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Speaker 4: my experience was, like, here's what I hope your experience

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Speaker 4: would be like. And I was like, yeah, you know,

306
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Speaker 4: people have been asking me for years to do that

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Speaker 4: kind of thing, and I always resisted one because back

308
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Speaker 4: when people were asking me. A lot of times they

309
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Speaker 4: just wanted to tell the horrible story of what happened

310
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Speaker 4: to me, and it was just limited to that, and

311
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Speaker 4: I was like, you know what, I'm not interested in

312
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Speaker 4: telling a story about the horrible thing that just happened

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Speaker 4: to me. But by this point I had already reached

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Speaker 4: out to my prosecutor, and so I knew that my

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Speaker 4: story wasn't just a bad thing that happened to me.

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Speaker 4: It was what I was doing about it, and that

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Speaker 4: I felt really felt like my story, it wasn't just

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Speaker 4: someone else's story. It was like there was something that.

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Speaker 3: Got me where you finally had control.

320
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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and where I had taken control, right, and

321
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Speaker 4: when I recognized what I had control over, and like

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Speaker 4: that journey of trying to figure out what it means

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Speaker 4: to be free, Like, you know, I had my freedom

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Speaker 4: stolen from me, but even after I was like freed,

325
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Speaker 4: I wasn't free. And I feel like there's this universal

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Speaker 4: human experience of like feeling trapped in your own life

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Speaker 4: and trying to make sense of it and trying to

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Speaker 4: recognize how to be an effective agent in your own

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Speaker 4: life and to accomplish what you want to accomplish and

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Speaker 4: define yourself on your own terms. I feel like that

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Speaker 4: is a very universal thing. But that has been like

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Speaker 4: the story of my life. My entire adult life has

333
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Speaker 4: been pushing back against false narratives and really trying to

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Speaker 4: find myself on my own terms. And this is how

335
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 4: I did it. And that felt like a story I

336
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,359
Speaker 4: was very proud to tell. And so when I explain

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Speaker 4: that to Monica, she was like, oh my god, oh

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Speaker 4: my god, Oh my god. Yeah. And then we told

339
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:41,960
Speaker 4: all of the you know, producers, and they're like, oh

340
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Speaker 4: my god, oh my god, my god. Right, and everyone

341
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Speaker 4: was like, oh my god, my god. And now here

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Speaker 4: we are, so.

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Speaker 3: Can we can I ask you a question about your prosecutor? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, the last episode before the finale, I I the

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Speaker 1: way it ended to me was so like my heart.

346
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Speaker 1: I had like heart palpitations. You're at home and you're

347
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Speaker 1: finding out this is the Italian Supreme Court, whether they're

348
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Speaker 1: going to kick it back to a lower court or

349
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Speaker 1: whether they're gonna definitively Yeah.

350
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Speaker 4: So, just for those who don't know, in the Italian

351
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,399
Speaker 4: legal system, the way that it works is both prosecutors

352
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Speaker 4: and defense attorneys can appeal verdicts, because no verdict is

353
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Speaker 4: definitive until the Supreme Court validates it. So what that

354
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Speaker 4: meant for my case is that I went through Let's see,

355
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Speaker 4: how many trials did I do. I had one trial

356
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Speaker 4: where I was found guilty. Then I had another trial

357
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Speaker 4: where I was found innocent, and then I had another

358
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Speaker 4: trial where I was found guilty, and then I had

359
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,680
Speaker 4: another trial where I was found innocent. So I had

360
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 4: like all of these different trials because it just kept

361
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Speaker 4: pingponging through the courts. And so I was in prison

362
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 4: for four years, on trial for eight and it was

363
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Speaker 4: in this what we depict in this show is this

364
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Speaker 4: like limbo space where like, yeah, okay, I'm home, I'm free,

365
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 4: but I'm facing extradition like I you know I do.

366
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Speaker 4: I'm not able to live my life because I'm still

367
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 4: like with the legal acts hanging over my head. So

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Speaker 4: we get the final verdict. I'm acquitted, you know, definitively,

369
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 4: no one's ever going to try to put me in

370
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 4: prison for murder again. But the verdict left open the

371
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Speaker 4: possibility that I might have been home when the crime occurred.

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Speaker 3: See, I never knew that, and I don't know.

373
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Speaker 1: I feel like maybe in any documentary or i'd ever

374
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Speaker 1: watched about you or anything.

375
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 3: I never learned that. I don't know if I just

376
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:38,000
Speaker 3: didn't see it or.

377
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,639
Speaker 4: I mean, it's like a nuanced thing that's in the

378
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,800
Speaker 4: court document, Like you have to read one hundred page

379
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 4: court document to appreciate that. But like that was what

380
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 4: my attorneys called a contentina, which means it's a little contentment.

381
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 4: So it was like the courts were trying to say, Okay,

382
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,960
Speaker 4: the prosecution is really really wrong. Amanda's innocent, she didn't

383
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 4: do this crime. But you know, the police weren't crazy

384
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 4: to think that she was there because maybe she was.

385
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,160
Speaker 4: And it's like, what do you mean maybe I was there? Yeah,

386
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 4: I was just there and my friend was getting murdered

387
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 4: and I was about it.

388
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Speaker 3: What are you talking about?

389
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,239
Speaker 4: And like, and it left open this possibility that like

390
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 4: I'm in some way like connected to this, and I'm

391
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 4: I'm withholding the truth from the family of you know,

392
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 4: Meredith's family, Like, oh if I'm if I was there,

393
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,120
Speaker 4: well I know exactly what happened, why aren't I revealing

394
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 4: the truth? It brands me, if not legal, a liar,

395
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 4: implies it And so I'm left still with like and

396
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 4: it's and it leaves me also in this place of like, well,

397
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 4: you're not totally innocent, right, so you're not. You didn't

398
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,479
Speaker 4: get harmed like you you were there, you you know,

399
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 4: And it's just it's had this like really deep difficult

400
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 4: consequences for me.

401
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 1: In my life, and I can see that on the screen.

402
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 1: She does an incredible job playing.

403
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 4: Grace van Patten.

404
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 3: I mean, first of all the Emmys, I can't even

405
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 3: when I watch it.

406
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 1: It's never even in my mind do I think this

407
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 1: is an actress playing Amanda Knox.

408
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 3: Like she's you.

409
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,920
Speaker 1: Yes, she she looks like you, but she also has

410
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,360
Speaker 1: is she is you like she does?

411
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 3: It is so it really is.

412
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 1: And I also didn't know this, but her sister plays

413
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: your sister.

414
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 4: I know, and I didn't know that. It's so great too,

415
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 4: because like the way that they're like physically different is

416
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 4: also the way my sister and I are physically different.

417
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 4: Like my sister is taller and blonder than me, and

418
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 4: so her sister is taller and blonder. It's perfect, such

419
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 4: great casting. My sister has been watching the show and

420
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 4: like live texting me every time she's watching it, and

421
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 4: she was just like Oh my god, Anna van Patten.

422
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 3: Like, how did she know?

423
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 4: She's got my sister's snark? It's amazing.

424
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I tell you that moment when you're speaking

425
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: to Carlo, your attorney, and he's like, Amanda, this is great.

426
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 1: You know, like they can't ever come after you again. However,

427
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 1: you know there's this little thing where they said, you know,

428
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: you might have been in the room, but like, don't

429
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: worry about that.

430
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 3: And then in your her face, your face, you're like.

431
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 1: You're just as as someone watching I can tell that,

432
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: like you're you're not okay with that.

433
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 4: And then that's when everyone's like cheersing and having champagne,

434
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 4: saying it's over right, and I'm like, it's not over right,

435
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 4: It's not right. This is not over for me. Right.

436
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 4: That verdict means that it is not over for me. Now?

437
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,959
Speaker 1: Is that the moment when you decide that you're going

438
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: to reach out to him or do you have to

439
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: mould it over?

440
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 3: Think about it and then you come up with that.

441
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 4: I mean the way that this series, like there's there's

442
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 4: certain things that the series doesn't show because like it's

443
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 4: only eight episodes, Like the actual first time that I

444
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 4: went back to Italy was not to go see my prosecutor.

445
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 4: I went one time before that.

446
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 3: That's when you give a speech.

447
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I gave a public talk for the Italy Innocence Project,

448
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 4: which didn't exist at the time that I was on

449
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 4: trial and everything, but it was around that time. And

450
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 4: again part of this was being within the innocence movement,

451
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 4: Like I was meeting other wrongly convicted people, and I

452
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 4: was asking them questions about like how they were processing

453
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 4: being wrongly convicted and what did they think about their

454
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 4: prosecutors and some you know, I love xonaies and freed

455
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 4: people are some of the most like zen people you

456
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 4: will ever meet. Like they are like, we've had to

457
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 4: live with It's not just PTSD, it's like prolonged trauma.

458
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 4: That's like trauma on top of trauma off top of

459
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 4: trauma for years, and we've had to develop like this

460
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 4: radical ability to either utterly disassociate or just like accept

461
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 4: reality the way it is and just try to make

462
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 4: your life worth living regardless. And what that means is

463
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 4: we tend to have a more humanistic view of people,

464
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 4: and I think we tend to be less focused on

465
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 4: like bitterness and anger and more light and were just

466
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 4: more haunted by like the why of it all, Like

467
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 4: why did this happen to me?

468
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 3: Why?

469
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 4: And that if you really really genuinely have that like

470
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 4: deep curiosity in you, it leads you to wonder about

471
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 4: the people who harmed you. And like, for me, at

472
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 4: the very least, like I always assumed not that my

473
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 4: prosecutor or the cops were like bad people, but they

474
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 4: were convincing themselves that they were right. And if they, like,

475
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 4: if they believe that they're good people and they're doing

476
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 4: the right thing, how could they possibly go down this

477
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 4: path and how could they possibly do this harmful thing?

478
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 4: And the one thing that I always heard from people

479
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 4: in the innocence movement was that they never apologized, Like

480
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 4: they never like if you were confront a prosecutor or

481
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 4: a cop with a wrongful conviction, they always deny it.

482
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 4: They always dig in their heels, And so there was

483
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 4: almost no point, Like I was I sort of I

484
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 4: started mentioning this to my friends in the innocence movement

485
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 4: that I was curious and I wanted to reach out

486
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 4: to my prosecutor, because you know, if I'm going to

487
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 4: be curious about this, why don't I just go to

488
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 4: the source. Why don't I just ask him directly? Why

489
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 4: did you look at me when there was clearly the

490
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,239
Speaker 4: evidence of who raped and murdered my roommate? Why did

491
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 4: you look at me and think there's my rapist and murderer?

492
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 4: Like what is it? What is it about me? Like?

493
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 4: How is that possible? And so why don't I just

494
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 4: go directly to the source and ask him? And everyone said,

495
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 4: I think everyone was nervous for me. They were like,

496
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 4: we just don't want you to go through yet another

497
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 4: traumatic thing, which is putting yourself out there, really making

498
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 4: yourself vulnerable, and just having this guy like get defensive

499
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 4: and mean to you again, like we don't want you

500
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 4: to just have more harm on top of harm. But

501
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 4: I just I couldn't get it out of my head,

502
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 4: like I felt like I had something to do, something,

503
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 4: not just something to get like I original. Yes, of

504
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 4: course I wanted him to admit that he was wrong

505
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 4: and do all those things, But eventually I figured out

506
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 4: that it wasn't even so much what I needed to

507
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 4: get from him. It was more like what I needed

508
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 4: to give him. I had something to get off of

509
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 4: my chest, and so I went to go do it.

510
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 4: And you'll see in the final episode how that ultimately transpired.

511
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 4: But like I corresponded with him for two years before

512
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 4: before meeting him, Yes, because of the pandemic. So I

513
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 4: don't know when anyone else was doing the pandemic. But

514
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 4: I was just writing letters to my prosecutor.

515
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: Now it's interesting that he wrote back because he could have.

516
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 4: Just yes, he couldn't, to his credit.

517
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: Ripped it up and been like Amanda Knox and you know,

518
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: but he wrote back.

519
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 4: He did, and you know, to his credit, and I

520
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 4: think that the show really really attempts to give him

521
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 4: credit where credits due, like to really understand his context,

522
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 4: who he is as a person, what his history is,

523
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 4: but also to acknowledge like he didn't have to go

524
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 4: on this journey with me, he didn't have to respond,

525
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 4: but he did, and you know, we are still in

526
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 4: contact to this day. Now.

527
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: I read that, I read that you do exchange letters,

528
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 1: and do you exchange Christmas cards and things like that.

529
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 4: Text messages?

530
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, really, so I would assume that if you're at

531
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: that point where you're exchanging text messages. And again I

532
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: haven't watched the finale, so I don't know exactly what happens,

533
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: but I assume there's a level of understanding or something

534
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: that happens during that meeting.

535
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, there there is, and it's I mean, it's

536
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 4: great for television because it's full of conflict in the

537
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 4: sense that it's like it's not just a Kumbaya fest, right,

538
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 4: Like there is conflict, and there's to this day like

539
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 4: unresolved conflict. But there's also again like there's this there's

540
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 4: something that happens outside of the courtroom, which is this

541
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 4: like need, this universal human need for connection, for understanding.

542
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 4: And the thing that like you'll see depicted so which

543
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 4: so well by by Grace and Francisco a Quadrali, is

544
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 4: that desire to be understood one person to another, not

545
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 4: just me to him, but him to him to me.

546
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: Did you see him differently after meeting in person? Were

547
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: you able to maybe see his perspective? I will tell

548
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: you I I knew he was wrong the entire time,

549
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: but I had a hard time hating him. So I

550
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: think you did a good job of depicting him in

551
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: a way where you know he's wrong, and you know

552
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: the path he's going down is wrong, and you know

553
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,719
Speaker 1: he keeps it's like he keeps trying to make this

554
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: fit even though it doesn't fit, and he's he's hammering it.

555
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: But for some reason, I couldn't ever hate him. And

556
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's because you shared in the

557
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: series a little bit of his backstory and where he

558
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: came from, so that the viewer does have some compassion

559
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: towards him. And I think that was great that you

560
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: did that, because I felt like it wasn't just like,

561
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: this is my perspective and I'm going to go down

562
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: this road of like my perspective and make this series

563
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: the way I want to make it from my perspective,

564
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: which it is to a certain extent, but you're also

565
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: open to allowing the person watching to have a different

566
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: interpretation of each character as well and kind of form

567
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: their own opinion. And I think that's what is so

568
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: real about it.

569
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was very very intentional because my perspective, my

570
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 4: like my personal perspective is that every single person who

571
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 4: played a part of this like perfect Storm of Insanity,

572
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 4: is understandable, is ultimately relatable if we tap into those

573
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 4: universal human drives and like I do, and I think

574
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 4: that this is a really really important service for us,

575
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 4: actually the innocence movement, because I do not think that

576
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 4: painting people in black and white terms and as heroes

577
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 4: and victims and villains actually helps us understand how wrongful

578
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 4: convictions happen and what to do about it. I think

579
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 4: it really matters to understand that like harm can happen

580
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 4: even when everyone thinks that they're doing the right thing.

581
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: Do you feel the prosecutor is now a better prosecutor

582
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: for having prosecutor because.

583
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 4: He's retired.

584
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 3: Because anymore?

585
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 4: Okay, well, I think he's a better person.

586
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: Okay, almost almost the same thing. So he has a

587
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: better understanding of what took place, mistakes that were made,

588
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: or things that could be different or that you know,

589
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I don't want to put words

590
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: in people's mouths or any experiences. But he basically has

591
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: a different understanding of what took place now that you

592
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: two have connected in a more personal level. Yes, after

593
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 2: it's all been pushed behind us. Yes, yeah, yeah, and

594
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: I've not been retired. Do you think it would help

595
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: him in prosecuting more? I guess objectively?

596
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I don't know. I don't know for

597
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 4: sure about that. What I can say is that I

598
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 4: think the fact like I before me and I guess

599
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 4: since me also, but he never had been approached by

600
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 4: someone that had he had prosecuted before. I am the

601
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 4: only person that he's ever prosecuted who has reached out

602
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 4: to him and wanted to talk to him on a

603
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 4: human level and wanted to like understand who he is

604
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 4: as an actual person. And that deeply impacted him. He

605
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 4: he talks about it as like one of the most

606
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 4: important things that's ever happened to him. So how has

607
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 4: it changed him? I don't I couldn't tell you all

608
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 4: the ways, but I know that it has.

609
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: You know, I want to ask you because the last

610
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: couple of episodes we've done, this wasn't even on purpose,

611
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: but the last two cases we've done all revolve around

612
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: false confessions.

613
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 3: And when I watched you Know.

614
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: Your series, and you're you're being detained, and I assume,

615
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: because we talk about this all the time when you're

616
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: when you're going to the police station, you assume you're

617
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: there helping.

618
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 4: Yes, well and right, absolutely so yeah, So weird facts

619
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 4: about wrongful convictions. So the majority of time that people

620
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 4: are getting wrongly convicted, first of all, they're men, and

621
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 4: first of all, they're usually men of color, and at

622
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 4: least poor some you know, like these are sort of

623
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 4: very common traits to it. But like most of the time,

624
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 4: there's a you know, something bad happens, there's a crime

625
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 4: that occurs, and then an eyewitness sort of points them

626
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 4: in the wrong direction, or the police like get like

627
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 4: an idea description of somebody in their mind and they

628
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 4: go towards that person and they get tunnel vision and

629
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 4: they go after it, and then you know, all these

630
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,719
Speaker 4: years later, the you know, the DNA proves them innocent,

631
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 4: and you know, they go through the process of like

632
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 4: interrogating that person. And in one and four murder cases,

633
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 4: like we're talking people who have everything at stake, they

634
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 4: confess to under the pressure of these interrogations, which involve lying,

635
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 4: which involve you know, sometimes third degree techniques, although those

636
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 4: technically aren't legal. And and so I think I think

637
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 4: that just very fact suggests that there's something wrong with

638
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: the way that we do interrogations. If in one and

639
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 4: four murder cases where everyone where someone an innocent person

640
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 4: has no motivation whatsoever and has everything to lose if

641
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 4: they falsely confess, they start making false admission and implicating

642
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 4: themselves in a crime, there is something deeply deeply wrong

643
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 4: with the way that we interrogate people.

644
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 3: Absolutely, But a lot of.

645
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 4: The time, like what happens is like they just happened

646
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 4: to get the wrong person, and then you know, ten

647
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 4: twenty years go by and they finally test the DNA

648
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 4: and they prove that it was somebody else. In my case,

649
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 4: what's so fricking weird is that we knew from the

650
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 4: DNA evidence who committed this crime within weeks. The problem

651
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 4: was that I had already been arrested because I had

652
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 4: already been interrogated and falsely confessed or you know something

653
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 4: my prosecutor likes to point out, as he says, you

654
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 4: didn't falsely confess, you falsely accused someone. And it's like,

655
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 4: regardless of what how you describe it, I was put

656
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 4: through an interrogation where the exact same techniques were implemented,

657
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 4: and what they told me was that I had witnessed

658
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 4: the crime and that I didn't remember it, so I

659
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 4: was lied to. They told me they had, you know,

660
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 4: undeniable proof that I was physically present when this crime occurred.

661
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 4: They told me that I was a witness, that they

662
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 4: weren't accusing me of doing the crime, but they were

663
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 4: accusing me of covering it up, and they were telling

664
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 4: me that I was clearly scared. I was clearly a

665
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 4: good girl. I obviously wanted to help the police. But

666
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 4: what happened is I had been so traumatized about why

667
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 4: by what I had witnessed, that my brain just blacked

668
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 4: it out. However, if I was going to prove that

669
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 4: I was on the side of the good people, I

670
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 4: had to tell them what I couldn't remember. And so eventually,

671
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 4: and this is happening in the middle of the night,

672
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 4: like I'm sleep deprived, I've already been questioned for days

673
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 4: on end, Like I'm just like losing my fucking mind.

674
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 4: It's in a foreign language. Eventually, I'm like, I start

675
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 4: to question myself. They've painted this false reality around me,

676
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 4: and my mind is trying to make sense of it.

677
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 4: And so I finally cave and I'm like, I guess

678
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 4: you must be right. I guess I must have witnessed.

679
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 2: So fest inaccurately. But when you confessed at that moment,

680
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: you truly thought, possibly this is what happened. What they're

681
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: telling me is what happened. It wasn't let me confess

682
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: to try to get out of something or to lessen

683
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: the charge, to leave them.

684
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 4: I started to think that I was crazy.

685
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: Now if I can ask, I know, I don't know

686
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: what it's like in Italy and the way they interrogate

687
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: and prosecute. But had you not said anything going back

688
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: in time and you didn't say anything, said I want

689
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: to turn any blah blah blah, and you didn't say anything,

690
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: and then they came across that DNA evidence, do you

691
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 2: think they would have then let you get away, like

692
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: like released you, I should say, as a suspect. Yeah,

693
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: they had the tunnel vision and they were stuck with

694
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 2: you and they had to make it work.

695
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 4: I don't think I ever would have been arrested had

696
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 4: I not been coerced into So.

697
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: Again we're going back to the when you're being pulled

698
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: in for a crime that you had nothing to do with.

699
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 2: This seems to be a trend is to keep your

700
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 2: mouth shut, yes, and request an attorney so you don't

701
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: do anything incorrect exactly.

702
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 4: So they can't use anything you say against you.

703
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, getting an attorney doesn't mean to get away

704
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 2: with a crime. No, It also just means so I

705
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: know what the hell is going on?

706
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 4: Right? Yeah?

707
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 2: And also then you're saying, do you have an attorney

708
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 2: sitting there saying no, these are your rights and we're

709
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 2: going to help you, and you're not alone.

710
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 4: And you don't have to sit here in the middle

711
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 4: of an interrogation in the middle of the night, like

712
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 4: you don't know, Like, no one told me that I

713
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 4: was even a suspect. I was again, they said they

714
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 4: were interviewing me as a witness, and so like I

715
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 4: had no idea they told me when they arrested me,

716
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 4: they didn't tell me they were taking me to prison.

717
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 4: They told me they were taking me to a holding

718
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 4: place for my protection and that it would only be

719
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 4: for a few days.

720
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: And you had every reason to think that that was correct,

721
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 2: because you're like, there's this been horrific murder that took

722
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 2: place in my apartment. I don't know who's if I'm next,

723
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: So you probably had every reason to think, Okay, I

724
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: want to go be safe.

725
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 4: Yep.

726
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 3: You know it's it's such a common theme because we

727
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 3: through so many cases, the interrogations in the middle of

728
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 3: the night, and.

729
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: What cop is wanting to work in the middle of

730
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 2: the night.

731
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 4: They want to crack you.

732
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: And I'm telling you a lot of people say to

733
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: me when you know, we talk about these cases and things,

734
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: and a lot of people don't understand how someone could

735
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: confess to something that they didn't.

736
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: Do, because they just see the news and they hear

737
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 2: he confessed, and that's all. That's all we think. We

738
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: don't think the day was, how did they did the

739
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 2: interrogator say, we have DNA evidence and all this false stuff.

740
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: They lie to you because they're allowed to light.

741
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 4: You know, like there are and again you don't even

742
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 4: have to be hit because like these methods that are legal,

743
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 4: legal I disagree with, absolutely incredibly effective at getting people

744
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 4: to confess, even guilty or innocent.

745
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: My thing is admit nothing, deny everything, and demand proof.

746
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 4: So you never but try explaining that to someone whose

747
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 4: friend's just been murdered. Like I had every reason to

748
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 4: want to cooperate with the police.

749
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 2: I mean, you were young, I was.

750
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 4: Experience and obeyed police officers. I have military in my family,

751
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 4: like you know, uniform means authority. Figure it means someone

752
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 4: that you can trust and that you have to obey.

753
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 4: That's what that meant to me. Now, uniforms means they

754
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 4: have an authority. Make me scared, Like to this day,

755
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 4: like I go through airports and like I see people

756
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 4: in uniform and I just like cringe, like and I'm

757
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 4: trying to get over that because I know that it's

758
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 4: not everyone, but just the like knowledge of how much

759
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 4: power that they have over you, Like that's scary to me. Now,

760
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 4: I don't look at someone in uniform and go, that's

761
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 4: someone who's there to protect me. I look at that

762
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 4: as someone who me.

763
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 2: Very much lighter level. My father always told me at

764
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: this time that he was pulled over. Drug were planted

765
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: on him and he was arrested, and he stayed the

766
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 2: night in jail, and he had if he did it,

767
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 2: he would have told me, right, I mean, my dad

768
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 2: would have told me, oh, yeah, I smoke potware. But

769
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: he didn't, and they threw it in the in the car.

770
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 2: They arrested him. He spent the night in jail and

771
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 2: to this, and then he the next day he was

772
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 2: released and whatever. But and he also has very little memory.

773
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: When I ask him what happened, I'm like, how would

774
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 2: you not remember the one time you were in court

775
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: being a defendant. Anyway, he tells he still gets he

776
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: doesn't like police, and specifically in New York to police department,

777
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: or excuse me, New York, the Newport Beach Police Department.

778
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: He's still sixty seven years later, has a beef with them,

779
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 2: and that was a very small interaction compared to what

780
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: some people go through. Well, so it's understandable that you

781
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: would be that way.

782
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 4: And it's hard because like holding people accountable for the

783
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 4: harm that they cause, Like the whole system is sort

784
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 4: of against those of us who are a victim of

785
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 4: the system, Like those of us who are victims of

786
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 4: the criminal justice system don't have great recourse, like it's

787
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 4: it's it seems like everything and everyone wants it to

788
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 4: be our fault, like we are victim blamed like crazy, Oh,

789
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 4: it must be your fault that you were suspicious. It

790
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 4: must be your fault that you got them to think

791
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 4: that you had something to do with it, Like.

792
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: What doesn't happen to me, Yes, my roommate doesn't get murdered.

793
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 2: I don't get in these situations. I'm not guilty. I

794
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: don't do these things. You must be guilty because you're

795
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: involved in all this.

796
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what's interesting, And I'll tell you this

797
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: because I have a pretty large platform on Instagram, So

798
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: I posted that I was interviewing you, and I asked

799
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: people to ask questions that they.

800
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 3: Would like to ask you. They mean to you, No,

801
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 3: not at all.

802
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: Some people, I mean the mean to me because of

803
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: other reasons, because of me, not because of.

804
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 3: Anything you've done.

805
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 1: But it was so interesting to me that I will

806
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: tell you that a reoccurring question that I gets over

807
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: and over and over, and this is so telling as

808
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: to your story is do we finally know who did it?

809
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: And it's so this is when you talk about her case,

810
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: this is this was interesting to me in your in

811
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: your series because you show Rudy Getty, who's the person

812
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: who his DNA is everywhere.

813
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 4: He's clearly hasty breaking entering.

814
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: He committed the crime. He admits it.

815
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: He's on the phone and they record it right and

816
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 1: he even says that Amanda wasn't there, wasn't there, she

817
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with it. He goes to the

818
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: fast track trial or whatever. And in the series, it's

819
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: so interesting because I'm sure it's absolutely accurate, but there's

820
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: no one there at his trial.

821
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 3: He's he goes on trial for this murder.

822
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 4: That's the huge, biggest murder, huge in Italy's history.

823
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 1: It's global it's all over the media. The man who

824
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: actually committed the crime is on trial. There's no one watching,

825
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 1: there's hardly any media, there's.

826
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 3: No press coverage.

827
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: And to this day people still say did they find

828
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: the person who actually did it? That just goes to

829
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: show you that the media had no interest in people

830
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: knowing that that's not a good story, who actually committed

831
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:17,959
Speaker 1: the crime.

832
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 4: That's where the media ethics part of my right.

833
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: My journalism would follow through on that, but that but

834
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 2: they didn't. They didn't, They didn't care.

835
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 3: And it is not globally known. She's globally known.

836
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: You say Amanda Knox, and I would say nine out

837
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: of ten people probably your name, and can probably once

838
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: you start to talk about it, can be like, oh yeah,

839
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: I remember that you say his name. Nobody knows nobody,

840
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: I would say, the general public doesn't even know it

841
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: was ever solved. And that is such a testament to

842
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: how much the media just latched onto you and how

843
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: you were sensational. You were young, you were pretty, you

844
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: were in Italy, you made with your boyfriend. They thought

845
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: that was weird whatever, and they just went with that.

846
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 1: And then all the crowds outside your trial that latched

847
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: onto it without knowing anything about the case, about not

848
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: really knowing any of the facts, not following anything, not

849
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: understanding how the forensics and the DNA and everything was

850
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: just botched. It was a terrible investigation. They just knew

851
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 1: you yep, yep.

852
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: And the end result of Rudy's.

853
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 4: Trial yeah, well yeah, so he elected for what they

854
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 4: call a fast track trial in Italy's witby trial, Yes,

855
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 4: speedy trial. So it wasn't a trial by jury. It

856
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 4: was just within a judge kind of like the I

857
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 4: guess we would call it our like I don't know,

858
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 4: there's not really an equivalent here in the US, but like,

859
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 4: just a judge found him guilty and he was sentenced

860
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 4: to thirty years, but they were reduced to sixteen on appeal,

861
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 4: and then he got out of prison after thirteen years,

862
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 4: and now he is on trial for sexually assaulting another

863
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 4: young woman.

864
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: Took place after he was released. Yes, yeah, so he's

865
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: a career criminal.

866
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 4: I mean, he's clearly got issues with women. And it's

867
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 4: so frustrating to me because the truth about what happened

868
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 4: to my roommate matters. The truth matters, and the thing

869
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 4: that like all these institutions that we trust, like they failed.

870
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 4: The Italian justice system failed. I mean, yes, Rudy did

871
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 4: go to prison for this crime, but he was not

872
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 4: actually held fully accountable for the crime, Like he was

873
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 4: never even accused of breaking and entering into our house.

874
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 4: He was never accused of stealing from Meredith, all of

875
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 4: these things that he did. And so he was let

876
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 4: off with a lighter sentence.

877
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 2: Clearly too early because he just came got out.

878
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 4: Too early, and and you know, points the finger at

879
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 4: me to this day, as soon as he was arrested

880
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 4: suddenly now I'm you know, he latched onto this. I

881
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 4: meant he got an attorney who convinced him to take

882
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 4: the lesser guilt and say, oh yeah, sure, Amanda was there.

883
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 4: And and you know, to this day does that he

884
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 4: takes advantage of the obsession people have with the idea

885
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 4: of me being guilty and uses it to slide underneath,

886
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 4: you know, like to not take accountability for his crimes,

887
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 4: like he is not the person who is known for

888
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 4: Meredith's death. No, and that's obscene, and and the fact

889
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 4: that like no one's even following up to like know

890
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 4: what else is going on with him, Like very very

891
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 4: little media coverage of him whatsoever.

892
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 3: I know, I get.

893
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 4: People complain about everything I do every day.

894
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: That's that's what is crazy crazy to me. Now, when

895
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: I watched The Dark Commentary on Netflix that you did

896
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: a few years ago, they show an interview with you,

897
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: but they also show I would have to tell you,

898
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: this guy.

899
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 3: Drives me nuts. I just have to ask you, Nick

900
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 3: Pisa ah.

901
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 4: Yes, or as my family likes to call him, Nick

902
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 4: Pisa shit.

903
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 3: Yes, I like that.

904
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 4: I like that.

905
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I've been on reality TV for a long time.

906
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: I get a lot of crap. Not like I would

907
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: never compare, no.

908
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 3: Comparison at all. We can we bond, I understand it,

909
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 3: but not to the extent that you have.

910
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: But I have never I always make fun I always

911
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: make fun of people that come onto my Instagram and

912
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: call me horrible names and send me horrible dms, And

913
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: I think, what kind of people are these? That you

914
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: watch a reality show and then you feel compelled to

915
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: say something to me, like can it not just be

916
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: entertaining for you? But anyway, I will tell you, Nick

917
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 1: Pisa is the only person I have ever felt compelled

918
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: to find on Instagram.

919
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 3: You did. I looked for him because wait, what's his part. Well,

920
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 3: he wrote for the Daily Mail.

921
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: Yes, oh yes, I know who he is.

922
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 4: He was one of the journalists who really like staked his.

923
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 2: Career in the headlights. He loved Yeah, he liked his

924
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 2: name being in print. Yes, I remember him.

925
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 3: He said it was better than sex.

926
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, he said that. And you know what he's conveying though,

927
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 4: is like a true thing about the media, which is

928
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 4: that they were rewarding him for that behavior. So just

929
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 4: print anything, doesn't matter how scandalous, doesn't matter what the

930
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 4: source is. Just print it because anything that has Foxy

931
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 4: Noxy and the headline is going to do well for us.

932
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 4: And he did that, and he would you know, he

933
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 4: actually was one of the people who and this is

934
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 4: this is how what journalism has descended to. But like

935
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 4: in the lead up to my acquittal, nobody knew what

936
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 4: the verdict was going to be, obviously, so he just

937
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 4: wrote two completely separate articles ahead of time, like describing

938
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 4: our reactions.

939
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 3: Just you know, like imagine because he's fabricated.

940
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 4: He's fabricating. He is not doing journals if he's just fabricating,

941
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 4: like oh Amanda's crying, blah blah blah. And they accidentally

942
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 4: The only reason I know this is because they accidentally

943
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 4: put to the wrong one. Wow, and then they took

944
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 4: it off like within twenty four hours. But like that

945
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 4: shows you the level to which like journalism has descended

946
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 4: because everyone's trying to be the first person to publish,

947
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 4: and to be the first person to publish.

948
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 3: You have to make shit up. Yeah.

949
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like was the President Nixon that had two

950
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 2: different speeches for if the men actually survived landing on

951
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: the moon versus if they didn't survive. Yeah, we'll save

952
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 2: that for another day. Okay, Yeah, so this but this

953
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 2: is someone's livelihood, someone's feelings, someone's you know.

954
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 4: This is journalism, right, This is yeah, journalists, not just

955
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 4: that commending someone or I can understand how the president

956
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 4: would anticipate, like, okay either way, but those.

957
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: Are his words. He wrote what he believed, should they

958
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 2: have not survived, what he felt. This is someone writing

959
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 2: about you.

960
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 4: Exactly well and and doing it from a journalistic lens, right,

961
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,399
Speaker 4: Like I'm reporting the fact.

962
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, where's the integrity of the one of these facts.

963
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 4: You're reporting that you're just making up? Right now?

964
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 2: Okay, because that's his nickname that your family has.

965
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 1: I like that Nick piece of the ship. I feel like

966
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 1: Nick owes you an apology. Have you guys have you

967
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: ever had with him?

968
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 4: No? No, lots of people owe me apologies.

969
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,919
Speaker 3: Well yeah, I.

970
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 4: Mean it's funny because like the people who have apologized

971
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 4: to me are the ones who are like least involved,

972
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 4: you know, Like I here's an example of someone who

973
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 4: apologized to me months and it was just like so amazing.

974
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 4: And I actually interviewed her on my podcast. But she

975
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 4: was a model who was very young, very young model

976
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 4: when I was going through everything, and she was hired

977
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 4: to do a model like a photo shoot that she

978
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 4: didn't even know what it was ahead of time, but

979
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 4: it turned out that it was an Amanda Knox themed

980
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 4: photo shoot. So they were like they were showing off clothes,

981
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 4: but like Amanda's in a prison cell doing yoga, or

982
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 4: Amanda's holding up a knife and she's covered in blood.

983
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 4: It was for vice. They were thinking they were being clever,

984
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 4: and she like did it because she was like, I'm,

985
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 4: you know, an aspiring model. I just do any job

986
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 4: that I can. But in the aftermath, she was just

987
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 4: haunted by it for years and she was like, oh

988
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 4: my god, what did I just do? And like it

989
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 4: what is a man? Like she was thinking Amanda might

990
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 4: see these one day and like, oh my god, and

991
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 4: so she was just in fact, I did, and I

992
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 4: was like, oh my god. And then years go by

993
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 4: and she finds me on Instagram and dms me just

994
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 4: to say, hey, I don't know if you ever saw these,

995
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 4: but I participated in this thing and I feel awful

996
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 4: about it. I feel so awful, and I just wanted

997
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 4: to tell you, like, I'm so sorry for being part

998
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 4: of the oparatus that was depicting you in this like

999
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 4: completely dehumanized way. And so, you know, like she could apologize.

1000
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 4: I think that other people are just so deeply in

1001
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 4: bed with what they did that it's really hard to

1002
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 4: like pull back.

1003
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 3: If there's one person that you could get an apology from,

1004
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 3: who would it.

1005
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 4: Be my prosecutor.

1006
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 3: So so I'm going to assume when you read with him,

1007
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 3: there isn't an apology.

1008
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 4: So what you will? It's it's really interesting what happened.

1009
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 4: I don't want to give it away, but like I

1010
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 4: didn't walk away with nothing.

1011
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, so stay tuned.

1012
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 4: Stay tuned, my friends, Okay, stay tuned. Okay, human humans

1013
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 4: are really interesting.

1014
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 3: Now did he did he know you were making the series? Yeah?

1015
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 3: Did he give input or anything? Or was it basically

1016
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 3: like we're going to hire an actor to be you?

1017
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean, like I asked him who he

1018
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 4: thought should play him. Yeah, it was really funny that

1019
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 4: I'm not going to say who he said. Yeah. But

1020
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 4: you know, I also feel completely within my rights to

1021
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 4: have boundaries, and this was one of them. I like

1022
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 4: I told him about it, like I kept him informed

1023
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 4: as it was going on, But I did not feel

1024
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 4: at all like I needed to involve him in the

1025
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 4: project because it is very much from my perspective, like

1026
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 4: it is my story of going back to confront him

1027
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 4: and everything that led up to that moment. So like

1028
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 4: I've I felt very strongly that, like, this is my

1029
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 4: time to tell it the way I would tell her.

1030
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 2: Right, So we should watch this knowing exactly that that

1031
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 2: this is not just someone who tried to search the

1032
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: internet and pull it together and recreate this.

1033
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 4: It was Rair exactly. And and again, like I have

1034
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 4: to give credit to the creator and showrunner Kagie Steinberg,

1035
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 4: because you know, technically she is the creator and showrunner

1036
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 4: of the show. It is her vision. But we like deeply,

1037
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 4: deeply aligned in so many, so many ways. And when

1038
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 4: she would come to me with like ideas, I would

1039
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 4: be like, yes, oh my god, Like the Ameilee sequences,

1040
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 4: like inspired sequences, those were her idea. She was trying

1041
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 4: to like figure out how to tap into, like what's

1042
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 4: special about my perspective and the fact that I was

1043
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 4: one watching am May Lee when this crime occurred, and

1044
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 4: two was actually compared to Ameilee by other attorneys in

1045
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 4: the corps. And she was like, well, clearly, like we're

1046
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,439
Speaker 4: doing an homage to Ammeilee. And I was like, yes,

1047
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 4: that's amazing, and I think it does. It accomplishes something

1048
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 4: that again you don't see in your typical true crime biopic,

1049
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 4: Like it's really attempting to like be artistic and nuanced

1050
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 4: and creative and really exploring what it means to be

1051
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 4: me and how I perceive the world.

1052
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 3: Where are you right now?

1053
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you're married, and you're happily married,

1054
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: and you have children and you've moved on, and but

1055
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: is it important for you to always still have a

1056
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: voice and to be out there and to be a

1057
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 1: part I know you're a part of the Nison Center,

1058
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: which I am too. Which is amazing because then we'll

1059
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: get to see each other a lot more going forward.

1060
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: But is that is that where you're at or is

1061
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: it your voice? Is that where we're at with you?

1062
00:54:58,239 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1063
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 4: I mean the way that I've been thinking thinking about

1064
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 4: it is like I've spent all of these years really

1065
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 4: dealing with like dark stuff, Like I've been processing all

1066
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 4: of this like really dark dense reality that has that

1067
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,439
Speaker 4: my life has been entrenched in, and I finally sort

1068
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 4: of turned it into the fertilizer I need to like

1069
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 4: just blossom. And so I'm feeling all of these like

1070
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 4: all this creative energy and like and and and advocacy

1071
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 4: energy just like shooting out of me. And and I'm

1072
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 4: and I'm finally like finding partners who recognize my value

1073
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 4: in that and and don't just try to like tell

1074
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 4: me to shut up and disappear. And and so I've

1075
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 4: got a lot to say. I've learned a lot from

1076
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 4: this process. And and as my husband says, until we

1077
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 4: convince every single person in the world that I didn't

1078
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 4: deserve to be accused of a crime, I will keep

1079
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 4: explaining it to people if they need correction, right right.

1080
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 2: You know what to do?

1081
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I got well, you know, like that's never been

1082
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 4: really like my goal. That's just like my husband is just.

1083
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 2: Like sospective to you though, why you're doing what you're doing,

1084
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 2: and it's okay to do what you're doing and.

1085
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 4: Speakers absolutely, and you know what what happened to me

1086
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 4: is still able to happen to other people because there

1087
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,800
Speaker 4: are still like again, the way that we interrogate people

1088
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 4: in this country, it follows the same playbook as what

1089
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 4: happened to me in Italy, and that is happening to

1090
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 4: people right now. And so I have a very clear

1091
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 4: vision of how we can change the system for the better.

1092
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,320
Speaker 4: And as long as like my voice in my story

1093
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 4: can help do that, I will keep doing that.

1094
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's still empowered I and I love to

1095
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:42,839
Speaker 1: hear you speak because you speak so well and you've

1096
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: gone through so much. But it's it's from such a

1097
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: human perspective, which I think is that's what people can

1098
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: take away from it.

1099
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 3: It's just what you.

1100
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: Went through and where you are now and how you've

1101
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 1: come out and how you're empowered now. You don't want

1102
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: to be the wilting flower in the background that's afraid

1103
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: to use your voice because you're afraid people are going

1104
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 1: to think that you had something to do with it.

1105
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 1: You've just you've moved past that, and you're like, I'm

1106
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: going to stand up here on this stage.

1107
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you exactly what happened, and you're

1108
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 3: going to listen to me.

1109
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 4: I got some mom energy. Now, I'm a mom. I

1110
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 4: have two young kids, and like.

1111
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 3: Mom energy, I tell you, something happens when you have kids.

1112
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, it's like you have to make the world

1113
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 4: better for them, absolutely, Like it's not just about you anymore,

1114
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 4: and they should be better to them than it was

1115
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 4: to me.

1116
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: And things that you didn't think that you would ever

1117
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: be able to do before. Now you have children and

1118
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, you're just yeah, absolutely do it.

1119
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 4: Well.

1120
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. This has been

1121
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: such an amazing conversation. We appreciate you so much, so

1122
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: make sure you watch.

1123
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 3: It on Hulu.

1124
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:41,919
Speaker 1: It's called The Twisted Tail of Amanda Knox. You will

1125
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: not be disappointed and I want to know all your

1126
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: thoughts on what you guys think about it, So please

1127
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: DM me and we'll continue this conversation again later.

1128
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 4: Sounds great.

1129
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 3: Thanks for being here.

1130
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 2: Thank you