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Speaker 1: What are some of your favorite animals, friends and neighbors. Personally,

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Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of Corvid's and you know, I

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Speaker 1: like an octopus. Hi, I'm ben cephalopod. Yeah, I'm Noel,

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Speaker 1: and I too, I'm a fan of the cephalopods, not

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Speaker 1: the corvids, though, Man, I know, those sketchy little bastards

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Speaker 1: can go straight to hell. Oh they're great, though, Noll,

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Speaker 1: they're great, and they just see shiny stuff and they

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Speaker 1: can come they go at it. Well, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: nobody's perfect for sure. The closest to perfect we know is,

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Speaker 1: of course, our long suffering super producer, Casey Pegram. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's like tinker Bell. Look at him. Look at him

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Speaker 1: floating around there. I hope he's not spying on us,

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Speaker 1: like some sort of crazy fairy drone. That would be ridiculous. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know we're in the right place for that, I guess, right,

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Speaker 1: because this is ridiculous history, and today we're diving into

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Speaker 1: the world of subterfuge, that spionage, spycraft, danger and you know,

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Speaker 1: trench coats and fedoras or maybe not give me some

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Speaker 1: more Oh okay, more spy stuff. Yeah, okay, of of

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Speaker 1: hats will there be hats, of course, yeah, a wide

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Speaker 1: selection of hats. Because on this article from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works Ridiculous History of the use of Animals and espionage,

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Speaker 1: there is a lovely image of a dolphin in a

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Speaker 1: trench coat wearing a hat. So that sounds every that

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Speaker 1: is like the our totem animal for today's episode. We

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Speaker 1: should be hanging out with him, for sure, in a

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Speaker 1: trench coat wearing a hat. Yeah, there we go. That's

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Speaker 1: set messine, that's beautiful. Yeah. Because regardless of whether you

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Speaker 1: hate a country or you love a country, or whatever

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Speaker 1: opinions you have about how countries interact, the fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter is that everybody is trying to spy on

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Speaker 1: each other. And it's the tale as old as time

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Speaker 1: to steal the beauty in the beast line song, as

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Speaker 1: old as rhyme. There we go. Yeah. And what may

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Speaker 1: surprise some of us is that not all spies were human. No,

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Speaker 1: as you pointed out, animals have been used in espionage.

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Speaker 1: We don't have a confirmation on the dolphin trench coat

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Speaker 1: phenomenon yet. A trench coat where in a hat? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And what better way to begin to explore this topic

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Speaker 1: than through a specific example. What do you say, I'm

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Speaker 1: all about specific examples, Ben, And as it turns out,

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Speaker 1: I have one, because you see, Uh, there have been

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Speaker 1: some stories of late about stuff happening off the coast

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Speaker 1: of the Gaza strip Um where under the water are

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Speaker 1: swimming with ease like flipper. Even there are some underwater

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Speaker 1: creatures that are decked out not in hats and trench coats,

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Speaker 1: but in high tech surveillance gear with the intention of

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Speaker 1: doing reconnaissance work. And these weren't frogmen or deft swimmers. No,

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Speaker 1: these were dolphins. Yes, it's true. In August of twenty,

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Speaker 1: officials for Hamas alleged that a dolphin wearing spy gear

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Speaker 1: included as an old described an underwater camera UH was

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Speaker 1: working as a spy for the Israeli Army and that uh,

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Speaker 1: this dolphin was captured off the Gaza coast. But here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. Hamas was not the first government to make

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Speaker 1: such claims, and right up front, there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of fun conspiracy theories attached to this stuff, the kind

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Speaker 1: of things we would maybe talk about in our other

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Speaker 1: show stuff they don't want you to know, or we

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Speaker 1: apply critical thinking to conspiracy the areas, for example, in

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Speaker 1: Um Egypt, there were a rash of shark attacks that

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Speaker 1: were blamed by some on the Israeli government. Not the

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Speaker 1: same as being a shark spies, but it was, you know,

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Speaker 1: supposedly sharks deployed for the purposes of of messing people

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Speaker 1: up on the other side of a ideological divide. And

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Speaker 1: in the case of the Egyptian report, the idea for

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Speaker 1: people who believed in this was that the Israeli army

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Speaker 1: was throwing sharks in the water to damage tourism. Mhmm. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: it seems kind of a you know, Rube Goldberg guess

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Speaker 1: way to go about damaging tourism. But you know, and

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and twelve, residents of Turkey found a

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Speaker 1: dead bird and they claimed that it was decked out

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Speaker 1: with spy equipment. I believe that was also an accusation

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Speaker 1: against the Israeli government, who responded by saying they had

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Speaker 1: tagged the bird to track it right for conservation purpose.

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Speaker 1: Sure that happens all the time. Um, Like I think

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Speaker 1: I told you before, I used to do stories about

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Speaker 1: a facility in my hometown of Augusta, Georgia called the

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Speaker 1: Savannah River Site where they would track animals to determine

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Speaker 1: whether nuclear clean up efforts had been successful in these

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Speaker 1: areas where they were storing like nuclear waste from um

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Speaker 1: dismantled weapons. And so that's a thing that scientists do

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Speaker 1: all the time. But we're talking about things that were

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Speaker 1: largely disproven, right, But this stuff does exist, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and again, it's not just in other countries. It's very

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Speaker 1: much a part of the history of the CIA and

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Speaker 1: the United States. Yes, absolutely, we're Uncle Sam is very

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Speaker 1: pro animal spies. So despite the various stories that sound

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Speaker 1: kind of silly that you'll see pop up on the internet,

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Speaker 1: you know, a dead bird is a master spy and

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Speaker 1: all all this other stuff, it does turn out that

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Speaker 1: there are real and genuine examples of animals being trained

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Speaker 1: for military operations, or more specifically, for this episode, as spies.

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Speaker 1: And it dates back quite a while in the nineteen forties. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the famous psychologist B. F. Skinner trained pigeons to track

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Speaker 1: targets and steer missiles. And you know, we've probably all

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Speaker 1: heard about pigeons being trained to do stuff, right. Isn't

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Speaker 1: Mike Tyson a pigeon enthusiast, I don't know, but I mean,

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Speaker 1: you think about ravens, and um Game of Thrones or

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Speaker 1: something like that, where they can carry messages long distances

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Speaker 1: and can be trained to you know, homing pigeons and

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Speaker 1: the like. But bs Skinner, just to go back, his

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Speaker 1: most famous experiment was the Skinner box, and it used

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Speaker 1: operant conditioning, which basically it's sort of like the Pavlovian

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Speaker 1: type of condition which is classical conditioning where you can

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Speaker 1: train an animal to exhibit or a human even to

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Speaker 1: exhibit a certain kind of behavior, um by doing something

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Speaker 1: that coincides with something else happening. So when the dog salivates,

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Speaker 1: they ring a bell and they can eventually get the

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Speaker 1: dog to salivate just by ringing the bell that they

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Speaker 1: offer the dog a treat. A dog salivate, they ring

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Speaker 1: the bell, do that over and over again. It's essentially

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Speaker 1: it's just the bell. There's another story that's very similar

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Speaker 1: um in this article the CIA is most highly trained

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Speaker 1: spies weren't even human from the Smithsonian, where a man

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Speaker 1: by the name of Bob Bailey was able to train

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Speaker 1: a spider in the bathroom of his university to go

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Speaker 1: into a defensive pose by blowing on the spider, shining

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Speaker 1: a light and then doing it again and doing it again,

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Speaker 1: doing it again. Before you knew it, he could just

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Speaker 1: shine the light and then the spider would go into

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Speaker 1: defensive pose. But operating conditioning is just a little bit

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Speaker 1: different because Skinner used these pigeons and put them in

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Speaker 1: this box where he would have them press a button

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Speaker 1: and they would get food when they pressed that button,

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Speaker 1: when they packed a certain button. So it wasn't coinciding

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Speaker 1: it. It It was literally just getting them to do something

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Speaker 1: on purpose, getting them to do something voluntarily once they

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Speaker 1: had been rewarded enough times and they saw the outcome

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Speaker 1: would be in their favor. Right, And Bob Bailey is

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Speaker 1: an expert, I want I want to go back to

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Speaker 1: the spider example. I'm glad you brought this up because

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Speaker 1: it us a couple of myths that people may have

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Speaker 1: about training animals. And from what we see from what

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Speaker 1: the experts are saying, animals are much more capable of

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Speaker 1: learning than we might imagine. The only catches to guide

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Speaker 1: them toward doing something that they would already be inclined

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Speaker 1: to do. Right, that's I mean, parrots are going to

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Speaker 1: some parts rather are going to mimic speech. So now

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Speaker 1: you just teach them what sorts of speech, you would

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Speaker 1: like them to mimic, and spiders don't like things that

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Speaker 1: disrupt their web, so if they can associate that with something,

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Speaker 1: then their instinct kicks in. Uh. Bob Bailey, it's very

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Speaker 1: interesting character in this story because he was a director

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Speaker 1: for the US Navy Marine Mammal Program, which is currently

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Speaker 1: based in San Diego, California. Just based on the name, No,

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Speaker 1: I think you know the answer to this. Wait, what

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Speaker 1: are they evolved in? Yeah, they're trying to train marine

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Speaker 1: mammals to do Uncle Sam's dirty work, right right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: Bob Bailey and his associates undertook this program beginning in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, and it has an ancient history because

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Speaker 1: it turns out the use of animals and military intelligence

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Speaker 1: to our earlier example of ravens in the fictional Game

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Speaker 1: of Thrones, the use of animals for reconnaissance or communication

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Speaker 1: military intelligence dates back to ancient Grecian times and now,

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Speaker 1: with the benefit of behaviorism and science, and of course

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Speaker 1: the all consuming desire almost lust to have an edge

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Speaker 1: over the enemy, various governments, including the US government, have

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Speaker 1: found ways to apply spycraft to these animals, and according

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Speaker 1: to Bailey, they never found an animal they could not train,

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Speaker 1: and the kinds of things they were training them to

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Speaker 1: do ran the gamut from surveillance like we talked about

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Speaker 1: at the top of the show, to clearing out minds

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Speaker 1: underwater and to um you know, finding lost items and

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Speaker 1: retrieving them and bringing them back to submarines and what

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Speaker 1: have you, and to detecting explosives as well. So the

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Speaker 1: kinds of things that you could think that you could

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Speaker 1: train like a bomb sniffing dog to do, you could

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Speaker 1: also train a dolphin to do um and and underwater environment. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is startling right at first, it sounds like a

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Speaker 1: really cool science fiction pitch. You know, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: a movie that was become a joke and like like

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Speaker 1: Austin Powers, you know, he's uh, was that Dr Evils

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Speaker 1: talking about he wants the sharks with freaking lasers on

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Speaker 1: their heads and stuff, or you know, it becomes like

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Speaker 1: this sci fi you know, spycraft James Bondi kind of

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Speaker 1: trope after a while. Absolutely, because the so the Marine

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Speaker 1: Mammal program that we introduce in nineteen sixty they originally

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Speaker 1: began with more than nineteen species of animals, including they say,

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Speaker 1: some sharks, and some birds, and they began to whittle

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Speaker 1: down their choices looking for the best possible animal partner.

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Speaker 1: They ended up with two, the Bottlenews dolphin and the

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Speaker 1: California sea lion. Yeah, it's because you know this guy

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Speaker 1: Brian Bailey, who is an animal behaviorist and an author,

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Speaker 1: who was UM one of the trainers in the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Navy Dolphin and Sea Lion project, which kind of got

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Speaker 1: expanded to be that. UM. He said, the more animals

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Speaker 1: that they had available, the more likely an espionage agency

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Speaker 1: would have success in getting their desired information, which makes

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Speaker 1: sense because you know, a dolphin isn't gonna fit every scenario.

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Speaker 1: You know, sometimes maybe you need some a cat, for example,

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Speaker 1: that can go into a very high level meeting and

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Speaker 1: be undetected. And that happened as well. So we're looking

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Speaker 1: at a menagerie of possible animals, right, NOL. You had

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Speaker 1: said that this expanded UH to include the California sea

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Speaker 1: lion as well as dolphins. Let's let's focus on dolphins

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Speaker 1: for for just to tick here, because the dolphins alonge

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Speaker 1: with the sea lions, are playing an instrumental and continuing

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Speaker 1: role in the US military. Specifically, dolphins and sea lions

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Speaker 1: are trained by five different teams in this marine mammal program.

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Speaker 1: One team specializes in detecting swimmers, and then three other

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Speaker 1: teams specialized in locating minds. And this this is probably

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Speaker 1: where we see some of the most amazing natural capabilities

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Speaker 1: of the dolphin come into play. And not only were

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Speaker 1: they detecting the swimmers and detecting the minds, they could

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Speaker 1: actually disable the minds and more or less disabled the

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Speaker 1: swimmers by injecting them with compressed air. Uh. The quote

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Speaker 1: that I have says it had a device on their

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Speaker 1: head that they could use to shoot compressed air into

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Speaker 1: the body of an enemy swimmer, which I assume would

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Speaker 1: wouldn't kill them, but it would disorient them or it

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Speaker 1: would cause them to lose their equilibrium. Like, what do

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Speaker 1: you what would be the purpose of this? Why not

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Speaker 1: lasers instead of compressed air? It's unpleasant. Surely there are

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Speaker 1: some truly, there are some calculations, like a weapon that

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Speaker 1: would not harm the dolphin. It's probably part of it,

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Speaker 1: you know, instead of just strapping them to explosives and saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: swim towards that. That's that's pretty cold blooded. It was

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Speaker 1: nice of them. Yeah, the the last team is trained

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Speaker 1: in uh, object recovery, right, so maybe not a bomb.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you are retrieving a black box from plane or something. Sure,

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Speaker 1: so it's true, though we cannot over emphasize that enough.

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Speaker 1: It's true. They weren't just trained to be like friendly

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Speaker 1: flipper checking out stuff and reporting back to the sub

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Speaker 1: and kind of a lassie style. They were trained offensively.

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Speaker 1: And can you imagine, man, can you imagine being underwater,

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Speaker 1: swimming like an enemy territory. You're already probably pretty anxious,

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Speaker 1: and then dolphin comes out air gun mounted to its head.

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Speaker 1: I like to think that there's a high pitched squee

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Speaker 1: of death. I'm looking at you, Ksey. Can we get

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Speaker 1: a high pitched squee of death? There's murder in that

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Speaker 1: dolphin's eyes. There's at least low grade murder inconvenience right, right,

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Speaker 1: So it makes sense when we're thinking about the way

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Speaker 1: that dogs or canines have been trained by the military

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Speaker 1: for a long long time, right, the same process occurs,

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Speaker 1: find the perfect species and then look for the perfect traits.

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Speaker 1: And with dogs, they began looking for the perfect breed

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Speaker 1: of dog. Right, German shepherds is that would be one

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Speaker 1: of the common examples this program has been pretty successful.

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Speaker 1: They the Navy spent fourt million dollars in research on

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Speaker 1: it in two thousand and seven alone, and as of

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Speaker 1: that time, they had seventy five trained dolphins who have

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Speaker 1: actually been more successful saving lives in open water than

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Speaker 1: trained humans. I guess they're just you know, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like bane in the dark night. It's like old

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Speaker 1: you nearly abulpted it. I'm sorry, excuse me, we need

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Speaker 1: to turn that out. Put on the subtitles. Man, that

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Speaker 1: character cracks me up. Apparently they actually re dubbed some

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Speaker 1: of that stuff to make it easier to understand, but

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Speaker 1: it still wasn't super easy to understand. It's so weird. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like his superpowers to be unintelligible. That's and also

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Speaker 1: you know, have giant muscles. Um. It's interesting though too.

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Speaker 1: There is uh this issue of animals that like seek

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Speaker 1: relationships with humans are easier to train, but that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that there haven't been a their attempts to train

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Speaker 1: animals that you would not think would fall into that

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Speaker 1: category at all. And before we get into those, let's

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Speaker 1: just backcheck a little bit. We talked about the top

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Speaker 1: of the show Bob Bailey, who was the very first

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Speaker 1: director of this dolphin program that the U. S. Navy

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Speaker 1: came up with. Bailey's story, it goes a lot further

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Speaker 1: and intersects with a couple by the name of the Brillons.

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Speaker 1: Keller and his wife, Maryan Brelan had worked for that

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Speaker 1: famed psychologist B. F. Skinner in his lab. In seven

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Speaker 1: they decided to go out on their own and they

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Speaker 1: decided to start their own company, the Animal Behavior Enterprises

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Speaker 1: Company or a B. But they weren't They weren't doing

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Speaker 1: experiments on training animals to be spies for the government.

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Speaker 1: They were training chickens to play tic tac toe and

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Speaker 1: you know, pigs to play the piano. Um all in

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Speaker 1: the name of commercialism. The first big gig was with

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Speaker 1: General Mills um and they trained lots of different animals

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Speaker 1: to do funny tricks to sell the feed that General

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Speaker 1: Mills produced. So they were designing sets, they were writing

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Speaker 1: show scripts, and they relocate again in the fifties where

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Speaker 1: they moved to Hot Springs, Arkansas, which is Bill Clinton's hometown.

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Speaker 1: I believe, just a little nugget aside, And once they

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Speaker 1: moved to Arkansas, they opened this thing called the i

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Speaker 1: q Zoo. Will you tell us about the i q

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Speaker 1: zoo band. This is a delightful, delightful phenomenon. Sure, the

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Speaker 1: i q zoom is a picture any any endearing pet

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Speaker 1: trick or animal trick that you've ever seen on America's

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Speaker 1: Funniest Home Videos or on YouTube or on the late

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Speaker 1: show of some variety. I q zoo aimed to have

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Speaker 1: them all. They had chickens the walked tight ropes or

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Speaker 1: souvenirs to customers dance to music. They had chicken baseball,

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Speaker 1: which was a thing. Uh. They had rabbits that would

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Speaker 1: quote kiss their girlfriends right, fire trucks and sounds sirens delightful.

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Speaker 1: They had raccoons playing basketball and ducks playing drums. But

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, all of this was

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Speaker 1: just a very lucrative display of that operant conditioning that

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Speaker 1: they worked on under BF Skinner And all of the while,

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Speaker 1: in parallel while this is going on, and they're taking

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Speaker 1: this work and selling it to the masses. Um that

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Speaker 1: Navy program we're talking about is starting to ramp up

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Speaker 1: and get into full swing. And our friend Bob Bailey

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Speaker 1: from earlier, and he needs people just like Breland, so

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Speaker 1: he gives them a call. So this group, headed by

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Speaker 1: Bob Bailey, reaches out to the bris and invites them

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Speaker 1: to come hang out in their facility, which is in

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Speaker 1: a place called China Lake on the edge of the

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Speaker 1: Mojave Desert where they are doing all of this research.

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Speaker 1: Side fact here, China Lake had neither water nor marine mammals,

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Speaker 1: you know, just the just another side note, like Bill

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Speaker 1: Clinton's origin story there. This wasn't Bailey's first time in

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Speaker 1: the desert. He had spent time as an undergraduate at

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Speaker 1: U c l A in the desert in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifties where he was laying traps for kangaroo rats. So

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Speaker 1: they were familiar with the sorts of techniques, right. These

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Speaker 1: people were intellectual peers. They were familiar with one another's techniques,

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Speaker 1: and they said, hey, let's vultron up together. Let's pursue

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Speaker 1: this as a group. In sixty five and nineteen sixty five,

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Speaker 1: Bailey agreed to join the Brilians and Animal Behavior Enterprises

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Speaker 1: there in Hot Springs. And then, according to Bailey, boom

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Speaker 1: he found himself in show business. I know it's funny

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Speaker 1: because um he was doing this serious work which is

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Speaker 1: kind of can be you know, poked fun at and

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Speaker 1: from our perspective it definitely seems a little of the

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Speaker 1: absurd side. But then he went from that extreme working

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Speaker 1: for the government to essentially doing the kinds of stuff

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Speaker 1: you would do in producing like a PBS children's television show.

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Speaker 1: One of Bailey's big contributions at a b E was

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Speaker 1: designing something called the bird Brain, which was a kind

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Speaker 1: of skinner box type situation that allowed you to play

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Speaker 1: tic tac toe with the chicken by you, I mean you,

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Speaker 1: the human listener, me Ben whomever. Uh. The chicken was

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Speaker 1: in this cage and it had a little trigger that

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Speaker 1: was that had a light that flashed on it, and

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Speaker 1: so the bird wasn't actually playing tic tac too. The

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Speaker 1: moves were pre programmed. Yeah. Yeah, it was a little

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Speaker 1: bit spurious. But if the bird, you know, was trained

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Speaker 1: to respond to your move, so you made a move,

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Speaker 1: then the light lit up and the bird did it.

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Speaker 1: And there was a little corner called the thinking booth

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Speaker 1: where the bird would disappear into the thinking booth to

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Speaker 1: press the button and that's when the move would be made. Um.

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Speaker 1: They said that there was a version that allowed the uh,

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Speaker 1: the person to when um, but typically the bird always won,

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Speaker 1: and even b. F. Skinner himself apparently could not defeat

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Speaker 1: this tic tac toe chicken. But it was a bit

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Speaker 1: of a bit of carnie um subterfuge there. We're talking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, spycraft, right, And then for an interjection, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure there are a lot of folks here in the

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Speaker 1: audience wondering wondering about this aspect of the story. Was

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Speaker 1: this considered ethical? No, no, it's not. It's not considered ethical.

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Speaker 1: Bailey himself notes that at the time, the relatively new

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Speaker 1: people for the Ethical Treatment of Animals had clocked this

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Speaker 1: and they considered it unethical. But as we've examined in

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Speaker 1: earlier cases of experimentation and treatment of animals, the rules

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Speaker 1: weren't as established as they are today. So let's just

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Speaker 1: recap this, and there's a lot going on here. Bailey

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Speaker 1: found out about the Brilliance, invited them to help him

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Speaker 1: with his program training marine life and birds, and we'll

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Speaker 1: get into a little bit more that later, um, and

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Speaker 1: then he ended up joining their company, leaving that military

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Speaker 1: life doing this kind of more hilarious you know, animal

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Speaker 1: trick kind of sidework. But then it came back around yes,

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Speaker 1: it came back around. The more things change, the more

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Speaker 1: they stayed the same. You see, Eventually a B E

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Speaker 1: acquired a sideline. And it was not a matter of

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Speaker 1: having Rubes play a rig game of tick tach to

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Speaker 1: with chickens. No. You see, other agencies came calling to

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Speaker 1: a B. The CIA most particularly, and the Army's Aberdeen

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Speaker 1: Proving Ground in limited warfare laboratories. They came to a

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Speaker 1: B to seek unorthodox solutions to common problems. And this

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Speaker 1: was at the height of the Cold War. So why

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Speaker 1: would they Why would they do this? Why would the

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Speaker 1: Central Intelligence agent see hunt down this group of animal behaviorist. Well,

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Speaker 1: there was actually something of like a dolphin arms race

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Speaker 1: at the time. The CIA had intercepted uh Soviet intelligence

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Speaker 1: indicating that they the Soviets were working on this as well.

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Speaker 1: And that's like the kind of the joke of the

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Speaker 1: Cold War, right, If we thought that the Soviets were

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Speaker 1: gonna do something, we had to do it better. Soviets

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Speaker 1: thought we were going to do something, they had to

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Speaker 1: figure out how to do it better. That's actually a

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Speaker 1: big part of that film, The Shape of Water, which

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Speaker 1: I think is great. There's a really cool side story

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Speaker 1: involving Russian spies and trying to steal assets from you know,

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Speaker 1: the United States. The assets happening to be a underwater

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Speaker 1: merman creature, and in this case it was dolphins. In

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Speaker 1: other cases it was the allegations of psychic powers. Right,

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Speaker 1: we know that's really also I have a pitch for you,

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Speaker 1: everybody casey red dolphin like Red Dawn, but red Dolphin

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Speaker 1: played by Dolphin Lingren. Is he still around? I guess

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Speaker 1: he was in the Um Expendables movies. Okay, well we'll

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Speaker 1: fix it in post. I just want to plant that seed.

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Speaker 1: Is it c g I Dolphin or is it dolphin lounger?

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Speaker 1: And like playing a dolphin, I feel like making his

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Speaker 1: body like like a dolphin. I feel like we should

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Speaker 1: go with practical effect here. I think that's the smart movie.

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Speaker 1: That's what That's what little Tora would want. That is

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Speaker 1: exactly what it would do. And joking aside, you're absolutely right, nol.

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Speaker 1: There there was this arm race. There was a fear

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Speaker 1: of red dolphins, and this extended to other other animals

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Speaker 1: as well. We do have declassified nineteen seventies documentation that

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Speaker 1: elucidates this matter and and notes that the soviets are

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Speaker 1: quote also assessing and replicating US systems while possibly developing

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Speaker 1: countermeasures to certain U S systems. But they're talking about

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Speaker 1: dolphins like in the context, they're clearly talking about dolphins,

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Speaker 1: and both sides valued this. There's a great quote from

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Speaker 1: Robert Wallace, who at the time was heading the CIA's

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Speaker 1: Office of Technical Services in the nineties. Uh. He points

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Speaker 1: out the advantages that animals have over human spies. Animals

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Speaker 1: can go places people can't. Animals are un alerting. Let's

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Speaker 1: say we work at a nuclear plant, right, and we

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Speaker 1: have secrets and stuff because those are cool. They have those, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you, you and I have our trench coats and

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Speaker 1: our hats, and then we're gonna be on yellow alert

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Speaker 1: when we see another person that's unidentified. But if there's

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Speaker 1: just a bird perched on a branch somewhere, then we'll

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Speaker 1: probably continue whatever our conversation was. Well, that leads us

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Speaker 1: back to corvetts, which is how we started the show.

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Speaker 1: I know that's one of your favorite animals. I can't

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Speaker 1: stand a little buggers, But it turns out they're super smart.

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Speaker 1: They don't just go for shiny objects. They'll go for

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Speaker 1: about whatever you train them to go for and they're

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Speaker 1: exceptionally strong. They can carry quite large loads, and they're creepy,

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Speaker 1: little disgusting beaks. Um Bailey when he was We're with

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Speaker 1: a B they had been contracted to help out with

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Speaker 1: some of these uh animals spy scenarios. He really spoke

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Speaker 1: highly of the Western raven and this is from that

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Speaker 1: Smithsonian article by Tom Vanderbilt Um. He says it operates alone,

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Speaker 1: and it does very well alone. He says they can

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Speaker 1: learn to respond to classes of objects. He gives the

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Speaker 1: example if you've got a big desk and a little desk,

425
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: you could train it to always go to the small one.

426
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: And there's the thing about the quite large carrying capacity

427
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: they have. They could pick up, you know, file folders

428
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: or you know, even like a diplomatic dossier of some kind.

429
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: But they can deposit things that have listening devices in them.

430
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: They're not necessarily going to be spying themselves, but they

431
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: could perch on that branch, like you said, and carry

432
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: a piece of debris seemingly, you know, totally irrelevant that

433
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: had some kind of high powered listening vice in it. Right, Yes,

434
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: and bonus points for corporate intelligence, which could be an

435
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: episode all its own. Uh. Corvorates can also identify specific people.

436
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: They have facial recognition ability, and they also have the

437
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,719
Speaker 1: ability to teach that to their young. So for anyone

438
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: who is also wondering the same question that I've thought

439
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: about off air too, is it possible to train a

440
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: murder of crows or an unkindness of ravens? That's the

441
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: group term that follows you and teaches they're young to

442
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: follow you. An unkindness that's insane? Isn't that crazy comes

443
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: up with this stuff? I feel like it's relatively arbitrary.

444
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: I think it's people that don't like birds. There's a

445
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: parliament of owls. Yeah, that sounds very prestigious. But an

446
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 1: unkindness of ravens that sounds like the person to come

447
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: up with that was a kindred spirit to myself. So

448
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: I love them or hate um. You know, it's an

449
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: arguable that they have a certain set of skill, But

450
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: the use of animals in espionage, or the attempts of

451
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: using animals in espionage don't stop with ravens and cephalopods.

452
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: Even insects enter the mix. Yeah. Again from the Smithsonian article,

453
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: which is a delightful read, they talk about that Army

454
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: Limited Warfare Laboratory at Abergeen having a program where they

455
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: were trying to figure out how to use insects quote

456
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: for the detection of people, and that this reads like

457
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 1: it's a joke. It's like scientists ruled out lice in

458
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: a preliminary test. They simply crawled about at random, like

459
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: like you think bugs would do. But mosquitoes were Uh,

460
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: they had a lot of potential, right, Yeah, they're normally

461
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: at rest, they'll fly at the approach of a host,

462
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: so they have a routine, predictable behavior, right, which could

463
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: maybe be guided similar to the laser example with the spider.

464
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: Since they will always rest and fly at the approach

465
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: of a host, maybe you could detect the approach of

466
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: people during darkness. But that's not particularly amazing superpower. There

467
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: was a another series of trials with a different animal

468
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: that might surprise people, an animal commonly regarded as one

469
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: of the least trainable pets around, and that is you're

470
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: talking about hurting cats, right, the common house cat. Yeah,

471
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: I'm a cat person. I think you're a cat person

472
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: to Ben, but we both know that they can be

473
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: arbitrary little fellas, aren't there cats? I have I have

474
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: two cats. H I used to have a dog. I

475
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: love dogs and cats and an animal animal guy. But

476
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty obvious in many cases, not any dean

477
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: on our feline friends, NOLL. But cats often are more

478
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: like a freeloading roommate than they are a pet, you

479
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: know what I mean, come and go, They don't pay rent,

480
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: they don't do the dishes. It's true. But cats were

481
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: us pretty successfully by the CIA's Directorate of Science and

482
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: Technology UM, and they were trained to tune in to

483
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: human voices. And I'm seeing a couple of conflicting accounts

484
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: of this prom this project called Acoustic Kitty UM. One

485
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: that implies that they actually surgically implanted a microphone into

486
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: the cat's ear canal and the cat was trained using

487
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: the same conditioning methods we talked about earlier to kind

488
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: of hone into human voices of a specific type. UM.

489
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: But then I also saw an account that specifically mentioned

490
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: that they were used to spy on a high level

491
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: Asian official UM during a meeting where cats were wandering

492
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: in and out. UM. So the thing that comes up

493
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: here with we're talking about training a cat or a

494
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: dog to be a spy. It requires a situation where

495
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: a cat or a dog's presence is not unusual, is

496
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: not a tip off, right right, absolutely, so you could

497
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: you could maybe get away with that in a casual,

498
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: informal setting. But if a cat strolls into a boardroom

499
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: right or into the right of course doing a cat whistle,

500
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: then you know the the cat strolls into some meeting

501
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: and the joint chiefs of staff or all of a

502
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: sudden there's a cat in the oval office. People are

503
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: gonna notice, who is that president in our presidential Pets

504
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: episode that had like a million million pets and his

505
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: son's brought in like some snakes or something throw down

506
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: the bord room table. That is a security breach, my friends,

507
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: true that that state could have been wearing a wire.

508
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: I've been waiting to stay wearing a wire for a

509
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: while because the cat example that we mentioned here, that

510
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: you that you and I heard some conflicting info on

511
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: is fascinating when we get to the idea of that surgery,

512
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: right because according to the story, Bailey worked with the

513
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: inventor of the human cochlear implant, and they turned a

514
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: cat into a transmitter with wire running from the cats

515
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: in your ear to a battery instrument cluster is kind

516
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: of gross implanted in its rib cage. And the idea

517
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: was that they could direct the cat's movement with ultrasonic sound.

518
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: That's it. We weren't really hearing conflicting reports that there

519
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: were just two different situations. We had another one that

520
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: involved a cat that was deployed at a park outside

521
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: of a Soviet compound in Washington, d c. Um, and

522
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: it was used to eavesdrop on, um, a Russian operative

523
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: or politician. Um. That's the information that's not super clear

524
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: because this stuff is kind of hearsay, and you'll hear

525
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: things like a head of state or operative of some kind.

526
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: But the story there has they dropped the cat out

527
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: of the van and then it was immediately run over

528
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: by a taxi. Yeah, so sad, It is sad. It's

529
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: also a bummer that I bet all the gadgets and

530
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: whoever had the headphones on who was listening to the

531
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: cat transmissions probably take off. You know, imagine that. So

532
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: there's let's say there's another aspect of possible subterfuge here,

533
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: which I really appreciated and I imagine you did too.

534
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: We may not ever know the entirety of a b

535
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: ES experiments because their records were destroyed in a fire

536
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: in nine And when Vanderbilt the Smithsonian journalists route to

537
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: the CIA to ask about this, stuffy yep, they turned

538
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: them down because we know we're not even gonna acknowledge

539
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: the existence of those records in the first place, or

540
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: even if the program existed practically. I mean, it's very

541
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: hush hush stuff, you know, for good reason. One document

542
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: they did find, however, UM referenced a section called views

543
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: on Trained Cats are very very severely redacted. Documents censored Right, Yeah,

544
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: in the in the National Security Archive UM at George

545
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: Washington University. Right. I. I love that this is a

546
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: title for an official government document. Somebody, somebody is paid

547
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: to sit down and think, think it through. What are

548
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: what are my views? That's what I like, Views Untrained Cats.

549
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: There are different perspectives. There's some critical theory at play. Uh.

550
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: It ultimately concludes, at least from the unredacted parts that

551
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: we're aware of, ultimately concludes that the cats can be

552
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: trained to move short distances, but the program doesn't doesn't

553
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: pan out in a practical sense. And a lot of

554
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 1: these things that we're talking about, we're really replaced by

555
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: more practical technological advances, you know, in the same way

556
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: a lot of old school spycraft has been supplanted, Like

557
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: you don't have to sit in a park with a

558
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: suitcase with a real to real tape recorder and and

559
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: a wire running up your legs so that you can

560
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: turn it on and off when someone starts to talk.

561
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: In the same way, it's probably not the most practical

562
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: thing in the world to train animals to spy on

563
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: be But when we have like you know, ultrasonic listening devices,

564
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of technology that goes way over

565
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: my head. Well, we can't in the episode without mentioning

566
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: the squab Squad. The squab squad is my favorite part

567
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: um in this uh Smithsonian article, Uh this this. This

568
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: reporter went really deep with this guy Bailey and really

569
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: got some good stories out of him. Um and the

570
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: best one involved they actually had like a ranch um

571
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: that was active constantly while the i q zoo was

572
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: still doing its thing, and they had these like like

573
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: storefront like fake facade town kind of like um like

574
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: you'd see in an old Western where it was just

575
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: the front of a building set up and they would

576
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: run these different scenarios with pigeons where they would get

577
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: them we we need like the They would get directives

578
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: from head from home home base from HQ, be like

579
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: we need to get into this type of building, to

580
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: this intern, into your room, etcetera. And they would like

581
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: move the pieces around they had and uh simulate kind

582
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: of like the type of situation that the bird would

583
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: ultimately be involved in down the road when the mission

584
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: was live. And they also did stuff in the field,

585
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: didn't they Yeah, they did actually take the show on

586
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 1: the road. So, according to Bailey, who was not super

587
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: specific about this, for various reasons, ravens were brought to

588
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 1: sensitive locations, and he said, we got the cats into

589
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: places usually it's very interesting, usually using diplomatic pouches. A

590
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: diplomatic pouch is something that can't be searched, typically nowhere

591
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: near as easily. I mean, it's for transmission of highly

592
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: confidential or classified materials, documents and so on. So they

593
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: smuggled ravens through them. Apparently, he admits they carried a

594
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: raven on a commercial flight in a map case under

595
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: the front seat, and based on the way he describes this,

596
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: he says every now and then the raven would make

597
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 1: a noise and then he would shift in his seat.

598
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: So I feel like he was trying to play those

599
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: raven noises off as farts. Yeah, maybe just you know,

600
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: squeak chair squeaking that sounds like farts sometimes, or maybe

601
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: just kind of like that's what I do and I

602
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: squirm the only one? Am I alone? There? No? I

603
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: think you, I think we're I think you're not alone. Man,

604
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: We're We're both, we're both sound effect people. That's very true. Also,

605
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: there is a real world scenario of this. First, we

606
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: have to emphasize dolphins. Military dolphins are still a thing.

607
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: They're a real thing. They're out there. We found a

608
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: story in two thousand five from The Guardian by writer

609
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: named Mark Townsend detailing the story of a dolphin named

610
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: Flipper who was let loose and the aftermath of Hurricane

611
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: Katrina and was considered armed and dangerous. What did he

612
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 1: have one of those air cannons on his head? So

613
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: shootout t shirts. There's here's the thing. Dolphins were usually

614
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: controlled via signals transmitted through a neck harness, but they

615
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: were missing in action or m I A for a

616
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: second and uh An accident investigator named Leo Sheridan had

617
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: received confidential information confirming these dolphins had escaped during rafter

618
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: the hurricane, and he said the following. My concern is

619
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: that they have learned to shoot at divers and what

620
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: suits who have simulated terrorists and exercises. If divers or

621
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: windsurfers are mistaken for a spy or suicide bomber, and

622
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: if equipped with special harness carrying toxic darts so not

623
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: compressed air, they could fire. They're designed the darts, that is,

624
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: to put a target to sleep so they can be

625
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: interrogated later. But what happens if the victims not found

626
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: for hours? So we're back again. No, imagine you've just

627
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: survived a hurricane, right, You're you're trying to relax. You

628
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: go for a swim off the gulf, and then you

629
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: hear this squee this high pitched squeeve. Death not not

630
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: not a joy, not not a delightful Flippers down, Ben.

631
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: Have you read that comic about that secret top secret

632
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: animal program? Were we three? Yeah? Yes, that this really

633
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: makes me think of that. If the listeners, if you

634
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: haven't read We three, it's a quickie, um and it's

635
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: it's heart wrenching heart. It's wonderful. But it's about like

636
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: a cat, a rabbit, and a dog, and then I

637
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 1: think there's a super dog that they trained to come

638
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: after them, but they escape from this program and they're

639
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: wearing these kind of suits and they're trained to kill,

640
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: but they're live their animals, and they they act like animals.

641
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: They communicate with each other like animals. It's kind of

642
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: the closest thing to like water Ship Down. It's like

643
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: a sci fi watership Down. Don't read it if at

644
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: your first time, don't read it in public. Read it

645
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: at home in a place where you can tear up quietly.

646
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: But I'm really glad that you pointed that went out

647
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: because that is just a fantastic story. And in many ways,

648
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: this is a fantastic story. And we, you know, we

649
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: want to be clear. As we said at the top

650
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: of the show, you're going to hear a lot of

651
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: allegations of animals being used as spies, and many of

652
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: them seemed to be hysteria. Also, oddly enough, many of

653
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: them seemed to come from Middle Eastern countries. Did you

654
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: notice that. I did notice that, And in fact, we

655
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 1: have a very current example of that out of Iran,

656
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: don't we been? Yes, Yes, the story of lizard spies. So,

657
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: according to uh Iranian military advisor Hassan, through his a body,

658
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: lizards were lurking around in uranium minds, attracting quote, atomic

659
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 1: waves and delivering intel on the government to Israel. They

660
00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: were lizards and chameleons, and this military advisor said that

661
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: the lizard skin was capable of attracting atomic waves. So,

662
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: in other words, they were like canary in a coal

663
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: mine type situation. You would bring this atomic wave attracting

664
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: lizard and it would like dousing rod style, leads you

665
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: to the uranium minds. I guess so. And this is

666
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: February fourteenth of this year. You know, as you said,

667
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: this is very very recent. It doesn't seem to check

668
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: out entirely, because you know, why are they in a

669
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: cave if they're cold blooded? This is what he says.

670
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: He said. Several years ago, some individuals came to Iran

671
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: to collect aid for Palestine. We were suspicious of the

672
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: route they chose. Um In their possessions were a variety

673
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: of reptile desert species like lizards and chameleons. We found

674
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: out that their skin attracts atomic waves, and that they

675
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: were nuclear spies who wanted to find out where inside

676
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: the Islamic Republic of Iran we have uranium minds and

677
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: where we are engaged in atomic activities. He also said

678
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 1: that the spy agencies failed every time. So very strange story,

679
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 1: very strange stories. So I wanted to ask you before

680
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: we before we end the show, what if you could

681
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: have an animal assistant, an animal spy with familiar Yeah,

682
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: what what would it be? And don't feel like you

683
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: have to limit yourself to real world conditions. If you

684
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: wanted to talk, that's cool too, Like what would you want?

685
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I'm not really I don't like

686
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: a lot of animals. They squig me out, man. I

687
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: like cats, dogs. I tolerate cats. I tolerate really, but

688
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: they kind of leave me alone mainly. So so you

689
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: would want a cat, I'd want a cat. You want

690
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: your cat? I want my my cat to be a spy.

691
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: Talk Okay, boy, listeners, you must think I'm a real curmudgeon. No,

692
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: you know, I have my moments. Nobody thinks that. Go on.

693
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: Somebody online said that we were delightfully corny. You know what,

694
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: We'll take it. I'll take it all day long. Yeah,

695
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: well we'll take that, and we'll also take this show

696
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: on the road. That's gonna wrap it up for today.

697
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: Oh man, what man? No, it's not happening again, Is

698
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 1: it really? Why it's time? Gentlemen? Jonathan Strickland's the Quister

699
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: can't even mustard the energy to say his name. I

700
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: thought we'd seen the last of you. Didn't really think that,

701
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: did you. How could I leave it at a tie, gentleman?

702
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: If you do not recall we are at two and two. Oh,

703
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: I didn't recall. That's true. So this is the this

704
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: is the not entirely consensual part of our show, Friends

705
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: and Neighbors, wherein our nemesses, the Quister visits us to

706
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: test our knowledge of something at least hopefully tangentially related

707
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: to today's episode. What was what was today's episode? I

708
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: wasn't listened. It's mainly about Corvette's. Uh, it was about

709
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: animals and espionage. We did dolphins. I am tangentially related

710
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 1: to said topics. You are tangentially related to Corvette's. Which

711
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: is true that this effect words can hurt. No, But

712
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 1: I have a I have a scenario for the twain

713
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: of you that is incorrect, but I'm using it anyway.

714
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: And of course I always have to have some sort

715
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: of arbitrary rule if you are to ask any follow

716
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: up questions coming back to me. All right, yeah, so

717
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: this today, we're going to be talking about World War

718
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 1: one France. And considering that we're talking about World War

719
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: one France and animals, you will have to start any

720
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 1: question directed towards me with pardon monsieur quist are, followed

721
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: by and I want the accent. Okay, I cannot be

722
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: more clear about this, pardon monsieur quistair. And then you

723
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: may ask you a question and then I will answer it.

724
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,760
Speaker 1: I will point to you and you will start your timer,

725
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: which is as we have agreed upon in the past

726
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: three minutes for you to deliberate and ask any follow

727
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: up questions you need before giving me the answer of

728
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: whether or not the scenario I present to you is

729
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: true or I made it up. Seas, So, the counting

730
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: of the minutes shall be three three shall be the

731
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: accounting of the minutes, and the counting guns shall be

732
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: three four. Shalt thou not count, nor either thou countt

733
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: to accepting that, they'll then dost proceed to three and

734
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: this thank you for being so very thorough, And this

735
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: begins after after the scenario is presented. Yes, because otherwise

736
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: this is another long one. They've just been getting along.

737
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: I can't help it. There's a lot of details I

738
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: have to provide. So you talked about animals and espionage,

739
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: but animals have also been frequently used by the military.

740
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: Sometimes animals you would not anticipate would be incorporated into

741
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 1: military affairs, sometimes as an unofficial mascot. Sometimes these animals

742
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: would even receive interesting rewards afterwards. They would be promoted

743
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: to militty Harry ranks. This is all true stuff. There's

744
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: a goat that made the rank of sergeant. But that's

745
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: not what this one's about. No, gentlemen, here is your scenario.

746
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: That's the one I knew. This is about Monsieur Arison.

747
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventeen, France's army was in a shambles during

748
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: the Great War. Morale among soldiers was at a low point,

749
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: and about half of all of France's regiments refused to

750
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: follow orders to attack. It was the Great French Army Mutiny.

751
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: One exception was the first regiment of the forty one Division,

752
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: which bravely followed orders despite suffering heavy losses. The men

753
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: that division credited their tenacity to their mascot, Monsieur Rison,

754
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: a European hedgehog who was known to hold his ground

755
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: bristles out no matter what. After the war, Arison was

756
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: promoted to the rank of sergeant, even though it was

757
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 1: later discovered the monsieur was a mademoiselle. Begin uh you

758
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: know what, no, no, no, I'm flying blind with this one.

759
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna, uh completely arbitrarily, go for true. What

760
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: you don't even want to debate? We get debate, Yeah, yeah,

761
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: let's let's okay. So uh the misidentification, it makes it

762
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: sound a little more plausible. So sure. So that's a lie,

763
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: that's a that's a clever edition, and well done, Monsieur cuister.

764
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: May I ask you a quick query, Monsieur cuister, but

765
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: of course go ahead with your queer A can you

766
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: give me the elevator pitch version? Yours was too long

767
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: and pedantic and I have lost the plot. Nineteen seventeen,

768
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 1: France's army totally demoralized. One regiment in the forty first

769
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: Division managed to keep on going, and they credited it.

770
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: There were other regiments that also kept on going, but

771
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: they credited their bravery to their mascot, which was a

772
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: hedgehog that they had named Mr. Arison and uh Lynn.

773
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: Later after the war promoted Arison to the rank of

774
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:13,919
Speaker 1: sergeant because his example gave them bravery through World War One.

775
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: It turned out to be a lady head. It turned

776
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: out that afterwards, an actual person who bred hedgehog said,

777
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: this is this is not a male hedgehog, Moir monsieur

778
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: quistell we masterlen. So did this hedgehog have a rank

779
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: before a mascot? Just a apparently someone found it. The

780
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: actual origins of the hedgehog are somewhat lost to history.

781
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: So here's the single. I know that I know that

782
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: there were, you know, common it was a relatively common

783
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: practice for mascots to occur in wartime, you know, usually

784
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: dogs from time to time. Yes, I don't know if

785
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: that's true. Enow what it seems I'd rally behind a

786
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: cute bunny. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that.

787
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: But I'm I'm I'm wondering if oh, gosh, okay, we're

788
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 1: down to we're down to just a few seconds. Okay, good,

789
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 1: I say true, I say true. Block in plump it locked.

790
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: I win now to all the victory dastes so sweet?

791
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: Oh do you say there? It It's like syrup running

792
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 1: all over my body. So good? Okay, Oh no, no, no, no,

793
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: I get this, I get this. Oh so nice. Alright,

794
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: So just so you know, uh, the French army in fact,

795
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: was in a state of mutiny in nineteen seventeen during

796
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: World the Great War they didn't call it World War

797
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: One at the time for obvious reasons. They were refusing

798
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: to follow orders. More than about half of all the

799
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: divisions were refusing to follow orders, large because the previous

800
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: campaign did not meet with a success they were promised,

801
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: and the Americans had recently announced they were joining the war,

802
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 1: and a lot of French soldiers had this unrealistic but

803
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: deeply deeply optimistic hope that the American soldiers would be

804
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: joining them immediately, notwithstanding the fact that it takes time

805
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: to actually ship soldiers across the ocean. So the lack

806
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: of American soldiers and the lack of success with the

807
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 1: previous campaign lead to massive desertions and mutinies, and France

808
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 1: was just barely able to turn that back around, and

809
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: they managed to do it by you know, only having

810
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: to kill like fifty eight of the deserters. So so

811
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: the real, the real stories much more grizzly and less

812
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: head coogorial war as hell. Also, by the way, arison

813
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: is French for a hedgehog. You were so proud of that.

814
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: I am really out. I'm I'm proud of you, Jonathan.

815
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 1: I'm proud of you too. Yeah, you really really stuck

816
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: it to it's there. You're taking the joy out of this. Well,

817
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: you know, I just like you a lot. This isn't

818
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: care for you deeply. Yeah, we're worried about you and

819
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: your show. You know what, though, Hey, this is a

820
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: this is a this is a chance for a new beginning,

821
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 1: isn't it. Guys? We get to refresh, restart, rewind, recycle, reduce,

822
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: and reuse and remix. My friend, So we are going

823
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: to head out. Maybe maybe we'll find a mascot for

824
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,439
Speaker 1: this show at some point. What do you say? No, yeah,

825
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: as long as it's not a corvid okay, all right,

826
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: I don't teach their own. And of course we'd like

827
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: to thank our super producer, Casey. We would like to

828
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: thank Mr Vanderbilts, wrote the excellent Smithsonian article. Uh. Also,

829
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 1: thank you Jonathan Quister, You're welcome, and of course our

830
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: regular can tributor Lori L. Dove, who wrote the Use

831
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: of Animals and Espionage for How Stuff Works, and our

832
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: composer Alex Williams, who is also a pal, and most importantly,

833
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 1: you folks, thanks for tuning in. You can find us

834
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: on Twitter, you can find us on Instagram, you can

835
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: find us on Facebook, NOL. Did you see the emails

836
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 1: we've been getting about that Pinterest page. Well, I'm working

837
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 1: on at you guys. I've decided I'm okay with Pinterest.

838
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: I'm making a dolphin themed vision board um and with

839
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: some swatches, with some nice little color squares. Um. Just

840
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to I wanted to represent who

841
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 1: I am. I feel like I feel like it would

842
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 1: have to be a collaborative effort, so we'll have to

843
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 1: put our vision boards together at some point. I'm doing

844
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: a lot of crafty things. I like it. Yeah, we

845
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: hope you like it too. What kind of animal would

846
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: you want for a spy? Let us know, and what

847
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,439
Speaker 1: kind of animals should be our mascot. You can write

848
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 1: to us and tell us any of these things. Whatever

849
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: you wish at Ridiculous at how stuff works dot com.

850
00:52:58,040 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, guys, and we'll see you next time

851
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 1: for an episode of Ridiculous History.