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Speaker 1: Coming up on you need therapy from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: somebody who loves an addict, how do you help and

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Speaker 1: not enable.

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Speaker 2: I think the first most important thing is to understand

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Speaker 2: addiction yourself, whatever that means for you to be like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I think I get it. I think I get why

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Speaker 2: people struggle with this, how a person could get to

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Speaker 2: such a place in their life.

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Speaker 3: Like, I think I get.

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Speaker 2: What it means to not have control over your behavior.

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Speaker 4: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 4: a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 3: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 3: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 2: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 2: really live.

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Speaker 3: There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I didn't know what to do because there was

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Speaker 3: no internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel

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Speaker 3: like everything is hard.

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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat I'm a human first

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Speaker 1: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 1: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 1: more curious and less judgmental about yourself. Others and the

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Speaker 1: world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi, guys,

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Speaker 1: and welcome back to another episode of You Need Therapy Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My name is Kat and I'm here for the second

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Speaker 1: week in a row with Tara.

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Speaker 4: Hello.

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Speaker 1: Hi, and we are going back to what we started

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Speaker 1: last week when we started talking about addiction and we're

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Speaker 1: going to round out this two part series from the

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Speaker 1: perspective of more of a clinician and a therapist too.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the experience of loving an addict or

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Speaker 1: somebody who is struggling with some kind of addiction in

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Speaker 1: how to do that in a way that is helpful

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Speaker 1: and healthy for us and that Parson And if you

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Speaker 1: listen to last week's episode, you might have noticed a

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Speaker 1: theme that there are not a lot of black and

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Speaker 1: white answers that we can give you.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Being Alive.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, welcome to this whole podcast.

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Speaker 1: You know what's funny is like I always go back

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Speaker 1: to if you have a really good therapist, very often

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Speaker 1: they're not going to answer a lot of your questions,

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Speaker 1: and they're going to answer your question with a question.

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Speaker 4: And it is hard.

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Speaker 1: I will say sometimes I'm just like, oh, I want

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Speaker 1: to say this, it's hard, and I have learned that

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Speaker 1: it's not very helpful when we tell you things that

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Speaker 1: often are opinions that might not translate to your experience.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to preface this conversation with you

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Speaker 1: might be getting answers that feel almost open ended, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you can do some exploring of your own with that,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's really helpful because what I just said,

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Speaker 1: we're all different humans. We're going to have different experiences,

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Speaker 1: and so what works for one person might not necessarily

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Speaker 1: be the best answer situation for another. So I had

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Speaker 1: asked you guys to send questions that we use some

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Speaker 1: of those for last week and then some of them

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Speaker 1: for this week. I will say there was an overwhelming

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Speaker 1: majority of you that basically asked the same question, so

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Speaker 1: I kind of want to start with that and then

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Speaker 1: we'll work our way down.

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Speaker 4: Does that work for you? Okay?

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Speaker 1: And if you don't know who Terra is, I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to encourage you to go listen to the other

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Speaker 1: episode first, because we talk about our experience working with addiction,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's really helpful from a trust standpoint,

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Speaker 1: especially when there's so much content and information out there

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Speaker 1: that honestly, I want you to go listen to that,

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Speaker 1: and I want you to do some digging, and that

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Speaker 1: can be a little bit of research of why you

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Speaker 1: would even want to listen to what we have to say.

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Speaker 1: And the short of that is that terror works in

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Speaker 1: this field and asks for a long time. What did

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Speaker 1: you say, exposure is the best? What is it that

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Speaker 1: you said last time? Yeah, maybe it's like the best

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Speaker 1: to learn. My way to learn is to be exposed.

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Speaker 1: And we both have been exposed to this in different ways.

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Speaker 1: And that's not to say that we're the holy Grail,

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Speaker 1: so they please don't take what I just said is

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Speaker 1: that I'm willing to be wrong and I'm willing to

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Speaker 1: change my mind too, because the stuff shifts as we

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Speaker 1: get more information and we're exposed to more of it.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with the overwhelming majority of what you

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Speaker 1: guys really wanted to know in this subject matter is

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Speaker 1: can you be in a healthy relationship with somebody who

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Speaker 1: is struggling with addiction?

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Speaker 4: And if so, how? It's just like the biggest question,

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Speaker 4: I know, it's so big.

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Speaker 2: The first thought that came to my mind in this

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Speaker 2: was you can be a healthy person in a relationship

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Speaker 2: with a sick person, which would mean like I can

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Speaker 2: still manage my own health and wellness, and.

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Speaker 3: How I do that is the question.

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Speaker 4: Okay, And be.

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Speaker 2: In a relationship with someone who is not wholly healthy.

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Speaker 4: Can the relationship be healthy?

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Speaker 2: I think that pieces of it can and pieces of

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Speaker 2: it can't.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: It's like any untreated issue in a relationship. If someone

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Speaker 2: just you know, isn't doing the work on that and

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Speaker 2: it has a lot of negative effects on their life,

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Speaker 2: it's going if we're sharing a life in any way,

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Speaker 2: whatever pieces of our life we share, and that happens

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Speaker 2: to have a negative effect on that shared experience, then

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna also experience that.

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Speaker 1: And let's not in that answer confuse can I with

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Speaker 1: should I?

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Speaker 4: That's right? And do I want to that's right?

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Speaker 1: Those are actually questions that I don't know that I

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Speaker 1: can answer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, some of the sort of

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Speaker 2: like what I like to try to offer like guiding

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Speaker 2: post to be able to have some way that you

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Speaker 2: can explore this sort of question with guides rather than

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Speaker 2: just like distress your gut, you know, like that's in there.

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Speaker 2: That would be one of the guiding posts, but it

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be all of them. To lean on, And so

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Speaker 2: I think asking myself like, how much of my own

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Speaker 2: health and wellness can I keep?

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Speaker 3: Can I hold on to?

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Speaker 2: Can I keep grounded and solid in my life, in

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Speaker 2: my closeness or my distance with this person in the

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Speaker 2: condition that they're in. And that's where it's different for

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Speaker 2: every person. It's different depending on the space I'm in

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Speaker 2: in my life or the stuff that I have going on, or.

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Speaker 3: What aspects of life we share.

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Speaker 2: Can I be emotionally well?

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Speaker 4: Can I be who I want to be?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Can I honest see yourself? I think the honest part

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Speaker 1: is really important. It might take you a while to

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Speaker 1: get there. But how much of me do I have

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Speaker 1: to repress or push away or shift in a way

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Speaker 1: that doesn't feel true for me to stay in this relationship?

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Speaker 4: Is that worth it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I mean so, I gave a different intro in the

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Speaker 2: last episode because it was relevant to that side of

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Speaker 2: the street. But an intro that feels relevant to these

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Speaker 2: set of questions is that I have known lots of

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Speaker 2: people I love very closely and intimately who have active

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Speaker 2: addictions while I've been in relationship with them. So that's

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Speaker 2: really in large part where a lot of my initial

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Speaker 2: answers are going to come from is like being a

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Speaker 2: person who's had to navigate that personally, not just professionally.

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Speaker 2: And then of course sitting with people as clients who

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Speaker 2: are trying to navigate this in their lives with other addicts.

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Speaker 1: So what's interesting is when we first started thinking about

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Speaker 1: doing this episode, I immediately had the thought of partner,

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Speaker 1: and this answer could be different if this is my mom,

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Speaker 1: my dad, my brother, my sister, and my uncle, my

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Speaker 1: best friend, my friend, my coworker. Do you have any

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Speaker 1: feedback on the differences that how those answers shift, Because

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Speaker 1: it's different to be married or in a long term

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Speaker 1: relationship with somebody than like this is your mom or

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Speaker 1: this is yeah, my sibling, right, yeah, oh.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's different if your parent and your child is yeact,

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Speaker 2: I mean it gets really complicated when you think about

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Speaker 2: the differences. Yeah, if you're married and you have children

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Speaker 2: and you share a house, and it becomes a very

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Speaker 2: different conversation when you sort through all those realities. And

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Speaker 2: so I think it is really having to be as

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Speaker 2: honest with the reality of your life, with what your

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Speaker 2: options are and your resources are, and what limitations you have,

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Speaker 2: Like you know, I think being well, being truthful, and honest,

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Speaker 2: Like there's a spectrum of those things, and we can't

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Speaker 2: always reach our highest potential at them because life might

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Speaker 2: be creating barriers for us to do that and we

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Speaker 2: have to negotiate with While this would be me feeling

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Speaker 2: my most free and honest would be to complete leave

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Speaker 2: the relationship. And there are certain things that are preventing

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Speaker 2: that I will lose that I don't yet know how

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Speaker 2: to navigate losing. That mean I'm not going to be

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Speaker 2: able to set that kind of a boundary yet. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's hard to think specifically about those different dynamics. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think you have to just be asking yourself, hopefully

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Speaker 2: with help and feedback, what do I most need right now,

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Speaker 2: similar to like the sort of twelve step mantra, doing

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Speaker 2: like a one day at a time, next right thing

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Speaker 2: and letting that maybe lead you to the bigger you know,

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Speaker 2: what's the bigger solution or.

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Speaker 3: Where does this live?

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Speaker 2: But there's just a lot of in between, and there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of gray. And I think it's really possible

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Speaker 2: to have some kind of connection to someone who is

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Speaker 2: sick and it be really messy, Like for me personally,

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Speaker 2: the journey with my brother and his addiction over.

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Speaker 3: Like ten years.

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Speaker 2: That changed what a healthy relationship looked like with him

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Speaker 2: for me changed over the course of those years at

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Speaker 2: different times, depending on where I was and where he was.

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Speaker 2: And some of those times.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know how to do it.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know how to manage all the feelings that

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Speaker 2: came with seeing him or talking to him or interacting

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Speaker 2: with him and still be able to see him and

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Speaker 2: hug him and let him know I loved him in person.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know how to do that at certain points,

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Speaker 2: and then later at other points I could do that.

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Speaker 2: I just could. I could manage it. I could hold

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Speaker 2: some of the pain that I would be confronted with,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to be able to hug him and

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Speaker 2: see him because I could also hold that. And so

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Speaker 2: I think the complexity of that might offer a little

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Speaker 2: bit of insight into how it changes and it can

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Speaker 2: exist in some but there certainly were always boundaries. I

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Speaker 2: think that maybe is the key factor is like, if

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Speaker 2: someone is sick and their disease might be getting on

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Speaker 2: me and might be affecting my life, how am I

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Speaker 2: most keeping that protected or nurturing it? If I'm going

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Speaker 2: to if it's going to be like exposed to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not just a flippant I can do it today,

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Speaker 1: I can't do it tomorrow, tomorrow or whatever. So something

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Speaker 1: that came up a lot too was the question around

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Speaker 1: like how do I know when to end.

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Speaker 4: A relationship or how do I know?

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Speaker 1: Think the word that most people use was how do

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Speaker 1: I know and to.

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Speaker 4: Leave a relationship?

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Speaker 1: So what would you say to somebody because you kind

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Speaker 1: of answered this and what you just said, But is

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Speaker 1: there a way to kind of like summarize how to

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Speaker 1: tap into the knowledge of do I have the ability

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Speaker 1: to be in this right now or do I not?

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine people can figure these things out by themselves,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I wasn't able to figure this stuff

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Speaker 2: out by myself. If you have a relationship like this

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Speaker 2: where you're asking any of these questions, you love this person,

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Speaker 2: so like that's there and that's really hard. And so

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Speaker 2: to navigate loving a person having a long term or

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Speaker 2: a lifelong, a family, whatever relationship with them and then

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Speaker 2: try to figure out that, I just think you've got

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Speaker 2: to have help. You know.

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Speaker 1: What's so hard is we talked last week about the

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Speaker 1: compassion involved and understanding.

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Speaker 4: Somebody is sick. I think that gets in a way.

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Speaker 1: This makes me so emotional, and it's so different when

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Speaker 1: you're the clinician and when you're you're the loved one,

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Speaker 1: or that's your loved one.

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Speaker 4: It is so different.

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Speaker 1: And I want you guys listening to this because what

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Speaker 1: when you said, I can't imagine being up for that

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Speaker 1: on my own. Let's say you're somebody who works in

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Speaker 1: mental health. I know a lot of therapists listen to

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Speaker 1: this podcast. We cannot do therapy on ourselves. We can't

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Speaker 1: turn both of those brains on at the same time.

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Speaker 1: And so I say that with to offer yourself so

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Speaker 1: much compassion in this because I am aware and I'm

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Speaker 1: acknowledging that this person is sick. And it's where we

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Speaker 1: use that analogy of somebody with cancer and a lot

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Speaker 1: of these arguments, you can't really use that here that

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Speaker 1: often because.

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Speaker 3: There has to be a line in the sand. That's drang.

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Speaker 4: It is different, it it makes different.

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Speaker 3: It's a good analogy. It's not exact.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a comparison, it's not equal. And the place

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Speaker 2: that people can find themselves in that can be not

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Speaker 2: helpful is well they're sick, so they didn't make We

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Speaker 2: can make excuses, right, we can justify it. And you

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Speaker 2: resist truth in some areas, yes, And that's where you know,

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Speaker 2: people can stay stuck in a situation that is harmful

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Speaker 2: to them because they know this is who this person

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Speaker 2: really is, because I know the other part of them.

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Speaker 2: They're not just the sick, angry, whatever, acting out person.

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Speaker 2: There's this whole other part of them that's their heart

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Speaker 2: and their truest self. And I love that, and I

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Speaker 2: still get glimpses of that or whatever that looks like.

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Speaker 2: And so it isn't as simple as just seeing you know,

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Speaker 2: there is a both and and I think you have

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Speaker 2: to kind of ask yourself, like what I think you

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Speaker 2: can start small. What are the boundaries that I can

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Speaker 2: start to implement that help me feel a little bit

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Speaker 2: safer from their disease behavior like if you're drinking at home,

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Speaker 2: I'm not coming home, yeah, or something like if I'm leaving,

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Speaker 2: I'm not moving out. But if i'veon't be there, I

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Speaker 2: won't be there.

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Speaker 4: You said last.

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Speaker 1: Week, something like is their disease getting on me? Which

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Speaker 1: is just what you can use this If cancer was contagious,

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Speaker 1: would you just walk into a room without anything on.

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Speaker 4: It's right, kind of like.

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Speaker 1: If you have COVID, I'm not going in your room.

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Speaker 3: I don't hate you.

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Speaker 1: Right, actually really love you, and I hope you get better,

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Speaker 1: and I also can't help you at all if I'm

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Speaker 1: also sick. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that was something that came up in the

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Speaker 2: whole idea of like what kind of relationship can you

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Speaker 2: have if you're trying to be well and someone is

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Speaker 2: staying sick.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a limited one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever version of it is, it's going to be

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Speaker 2: limited by that thing. And that's sort of the pro

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Speaker 2: and con list I have to make.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is a conversation that comes up so often

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Speaker 1: when I mean, whether they're friends of mine or clients,

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Speaker 1: it's the same kind of conversation of well, yeah.

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Speaker 4: You can be in this. You can totally be in this.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that you'll have that this thing that

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, but you can be in this. So

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Speaker 1: it's a decision you have to make. It's limited, So like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can you can stay in relationship with a person

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Speaker 1: who has COVID and that forever that will never be

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Speaker 1: not contagious. That's not a thing, I hope, but you

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Speaker 1: won't ever be able to be in the room with them,

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Speaker 1: so it's limited to make the.

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Speaker 4: Choice, like is that easy?

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Speaker 1: So one of the questions that I got that I'm

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Speaker 1: actually gonna read verbatim I found to be very interesting.

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Speaker 1: And granted, this was one of those question boxes on Instagram,

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Speaker 1: so they didn't they weren't able to write a lot,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know if this was this was written

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Speaker 1: like this because of that, but I think some people

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Speaker 1: might be able to relate to this, and I think

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Speaker 1: there's so much in it. One of the questions was

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Speaker 1: how do I be a good wife and stay married

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Speaker 1: to a functioning alcoholic? So many things that dissect one.

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Speaker 1: We didn't talk about this last time, but functioning alcoholic?

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Speaker 1: What does that mean?

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Speaker 2: It probably means that they are doing most of the

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Speaker 2: essentials in their life are still being able to be completed.

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Speaker 2: That's generally like, so I'm not losing my job. I'm

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Speaker 2: not belie, you know, blowing up the house. I can

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Speaker 2: do the essentials and complete them.

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Speaker 3: Now that may not mean like.

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Speaker 2: The value of those most the quality of those things

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Speaker 2: are very likely to some degree affected, but nonetheless.

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Speaker 1: I'm there, but am I actually present sure kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So also good wife. So my laughter is almost like

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Speaker 1: this uncomfortable what does that mean? This feels like one

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Speaker 1: of those questions that was like planted from the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 1: Almost I know, I'm going to do a therapist thing. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I just can't help.

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Speaker 2: But like when I hear this, what comes to mind

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Speaker 2: in the context of this conversation. There's this phrase in

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Speaker 2: addiction world addiction is a family disease, meaning everyone who

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Speaker 2: is in direct relationship with it will be infected. As

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Speaker 2: we were just talking about some degree, so I think

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Speaker 2: it is linked to what we were saying in a

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Speaker 2: sense of even the ideology that you will develop being

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Speaker 2: in relationship with someone, especially that close of a relationship

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Speaker 2: with someone who has any kind of unhealth that's untreated psychologically, behaviorally,

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Speaker 2: then you start to sort of like try to morph

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Speaker 2: yourself into that, right. It's like, how do I work

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Speaker 2: in the context of this sort of dysfunctional thing to.

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Speaker 4: Fit into the system.

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Speaker 2: It's the survival way, right, Like, oh, okay, so if

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Speaker 2: you know my dad rages at when he gets home

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Speaker 2: from work, then like I just try to stay gone

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Speaker 2: until it's bad time.

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Speaker 4: How do you be a good kid?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll be good and i won't make any noise

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Speaker 2: and I'll clean my room. Really like, I'm gonna morph

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Speaker 2: myself into the context of this because this is the

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Speaker 2: environment that I'm in and I can't change it, and

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Speaker 2: so I really I have actually like deep compassion for

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Speaker 2: it feels like this trying to fit yourself into something

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Speaker 2: like trying to square a circle. Yeah, that you know

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Speaker 2: that there's something off about the way that it's going,

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Speaker 2: because it makes you feel off and it makes you

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Speaker 2: question yourself and feel like, well, maybe there's something I'm

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Speaker 2: not doing right, because that's the place I have control,

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Speaker 2: and so I'll just keep shifting my focus back to me.

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Speaker 2: And I think in a lot of ways, these sort

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Speaker 2: of questions come out of a place of like trying

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Speaker 2: to sort of fix the problem for the person, or

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Speaker 2: trying to make a dysfunctional or uncomfortable situation more comfortable

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Speaker 2: or more functional.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, I'm so glad you've said that, because if I

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Speaker 1: interchange the two people in this sentence, it feels very different.

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Speaker 1: So if I would say, how do I be a

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Speaker 1: good mom when my daughter's struggling with addiction? How am

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Speaker 1: I good dad. When my brother's struggling with addiction, it

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Speaker 1: feels very different. I think the wife thing is interesting,

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Speaker 1: but what you just said is that's what it is,

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Speaker 1: is I try to fit into this system versus like

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Speaker 1: remind mysel self and sit in the truth that this system.

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Speaker 4: Is not a one that I think I need to

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Speaker 4: fit into.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and what you're what I was that was so

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Speaker 2: helpful for you to talk about like a good mom

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Speaker 2: to my son who's an addict, because I we're like

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Speaker 2: judging the good wife thing a little bit from the

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Speaker 2: twenty first enjoy a feminist world of like you ain't.

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Speaker 1: Got to be a good wife, you know, like I

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Speaker 1: do want to be one yes in with that language

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Speaker 1: when if someone said I want to be a good mom,

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Speaker 1: I would have less.

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Speaker 3: Judgment about it one hundred.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's rooted in the same desire, which

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Speaker 2: is like I want to be loving yes to whoever

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Speaker 2: this person is if we even make it as simple

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Speaker 2: as that, And maybe there's other stuff that is is

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Speaker 2: not healthy in the good phrase of any of the relationship,

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Speaker 2: but if we boiled it down to well, I still

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Speaker 2: want to love and care about this person. I don't

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to throw them out of my life

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Speaker 2: because they're my kid or they're my spouse, and that's

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Speaker 2: just how I feel about them, Like it's an unconditional love.

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Speaker 2: Then how how do I do that while they're still

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Speaker 2: in this behavior that is disruptive or not healthy?

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Speaker 1: So does it fit for anybody who related that question?

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Speaker 1: For whoever wrote that, does it fit to shift the

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Speaker 1: language and say, how do I.

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Speaker 4: Love my partner?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, how do I love my son?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 3: That feels so different, It feels really different.

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Speaker 4: It might be more true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.

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Speaker 2: It's actually more helpful to the person, right because if

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Speaker 2: I can think about how can I show love, then

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Speaker 2: I'm probably gonna come up with some differences, and I

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Speaker 2: think loving people.

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Speaker 3: Might like it.

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Speaker 2: Lets us expand that, like, it doesn't mean I have.

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Speaker 1: To do X, I have to cook you dinner, I

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Speaker 1: have to give you money, or I have to show

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Speaker 1: up at this X y Z. So I'm glad I

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Speaker 1: that we read that one. Okay, what would you say

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Speaker 1: to somebody who is struggling with how to build trust

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Speaker 1: back in a relationship with somebody who is I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think this can be different if the person's an

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Speaker 1: active addiction or has gained some kind of sobriety, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just assuming they mean, yes, they've like are

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Speaker 2: addressing the problem. They're getting better, they're not using or

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Speaker 2: doing that behavior anymore, and they're trying to rebuild the

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Speaker 2: relation to trust in a relationship after it's been damaged

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Speaker 2: by that. I'm assuming that the addict is the one saying.

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Speaker 3: I build trust back.

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's somebody who how do I trust my mind?

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Speaker 3: Do I trust want again? Again?

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Speaker 4: Who might have lied, stole, cheated? Yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 2: Classic, It's interesting to think about it from that side

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Speaker 2: because I actually first was thinking about, like how to

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Speaker 2: addicts build trust back?

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Speaker 1: That's interesting that you thought that and I did not think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah was I I think I most often said I

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Speaker 2: watched that for so long with addicts asking them that question,

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Speaker 2: how do I get people to trust me again? You know?

446
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 3: And it's really hard.

447
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 2: I think these questions kind of can go to both

448
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 2: sides of the relationship or the answer that I that

449
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 2: I wrote or thought about. So if if I'm in

450
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: a relationship with someone and I'm trying to trust them again,

451
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the first thing that comes to

452
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 2: mind is, like it has a lot to do with

453
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: what that person is doing. So I think transparency comes

454
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 2: to mind just like are we.

455
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 3: Open about it?

456
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: Do we talk about it in a way that is

457
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 2: appropriate for the relationship, right, Like you want to try

458
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: to stay out of like keeping DIBs and being the

459
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 2: mom of people's stuff, because those roles don't go well

460
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: with people that really any that are personal in personal relationships,

461
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 2: which is why they want to have help outside of

462
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 2: outside of you for that, whether it's a therapist or

463
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 2: a friend or a sponsor or whatever. But transparency, like

464
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 2: am I talking about my own fears, my own challenges

465
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: like where I'm at, dude, you? Or am I trying

466
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: to tell you that I'm better when I'm not?

467
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 4: When people don't struggle at all.

468
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, I've fixed it, but I never

469
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 1: have a thought or I never have to I don't know,

470
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: call my sponsor, and never like have things I need

471
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: to work through it. I think that's something that I

472
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: imagine comes up a lot from the perspective of the

473
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: addict of well, I can't share these things because then

474
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: they won't trust me.

475
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 3: Yes, they'll think I'm not.

476
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: But the secrecy is the part that is actually makes

477
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: it hard for to trust you.

478
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was thinking, like transparency on both sides. Yeah,

479
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 2: am I as the person who's in the relationship talking

480
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: about where I'm at? Yeah, like the doubts that I have,

481
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: my fears that I have, Like or am I trying

482
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 2: to sit on that and just like, well, got to

483
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 2: get over that because they're better now, you know, did I?

484
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 2: Or if I bring that up, yeah, they're going to

485
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 2: trigger them and they're gonna yes.

486
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: If I tell them that I went through their phone,

487
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: which like, yeah, we're going to The thing is when

488
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,959
Speaker 1: people go exceptally when people go to therapy and they

489
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: work on an issue and then they're like, Okay, I've

490
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: got it together.

491
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go now. It doesn't even have to be addiction.

492
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: It is rare, if ever, that that stuff does pop

493
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: back up at some point that those natural behaviors don't

494
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: come up and you don't have to use a skill

495
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: or a tool to convince yourself and help yourself not

496
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: engage in something that no longer serves you. That is

497
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: a red flag for me on both sides. If I

498
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: never suspect something one maybe you should yeah, And two

499
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: if I never have an urge, like for eating disorders.

500
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: When I have clients that come in, I'm like, how

501
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: is the weekend? They're like it was so perfect, everything

502
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: went awesome, And I'm like, this is very confusing because

503
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: last week you perched four times, So tell me about this.

504
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 4: You never had a thought like what to me?

505
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: That is maybe this client isn't comfortable enough yet there's

506
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: something going on here, because it's hard to believe that

507
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: that would happen. But if they were to say, you know,

508
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: every day I fought tooth and nail. I almost called

509
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: you fifteen times, but I didn't, and I perched once,

510
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: I have this immediate like, Okay, I'm starting to build

511
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: that trust with that person.

512
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

513
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 2: I'm also thinking about reconciliation and amends processing, which shouldn't

514
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 2: really happen in the beginning, Like people need to get

515
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 2: stable and like kind of understand themselves and have confronted

516
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 2: those things separately before they bring those to you. But

517
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: I think about, like what would build trust with me

518
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 2: with someone who had violated that trust before, would be

519
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 2: that they could take accountability for those things that we

520
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,239
Speaker 2: could actually sit down and like talk about it and

521
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 2: how it felt to be on the other side, or

522
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: what are boundaries that I need in place until you

523
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: show me and I can start to rebuild the trust

524
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 2: that you are not in that place and that you

525
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 2: won't make those take those actions anymore. So I think

526
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: those are things that come to mind, and so reconciling

527
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: addressing it like the harms that have been done, not

528
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 2: just trying to move on past it.

529
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 3: I think for both sides that's super important.

530
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: Combined with time. All this combined with time. The building

531
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: of trust isn't like we decided this and now we

532
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: do it.

533
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 3: Can't flip us with it.

534
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: No, it was just something I think people want to bypass.

535
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: Another big thing and we've touched on this, but we

536
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: didn't exactly answer it. From the perspective of somebody who

537
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: loves an addict, how do you help and not enable?

538
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: I think the first most important thing is to understand

539
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: addiction yourself, whatever that means for you to be like, Oh,

540
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 2: I think I get it. I think I get why

541
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 2: people struggle with this, how this person could get to

542
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: such a place in their life. Like I think I

543
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: get what it means to not have control over your behavior.

544
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: That I think is one of the most helpful things

545
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 2: you can do to be in relationship with an addict,

546
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: whether they're using or not, is to develop your own

547
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: understanding of what addiction is, to educate yourself, to expose

548
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: yourself to the world of recovery and addiction. That stands

549
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: out to me the most.

550
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: I think something that comes to my mind when I

551
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: hear that question is there's a difference in helping somebody

552
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: and healing them, like rescuing them, saving them. And something

553
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: that has been very difficult, even on the clinician side,

554
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: is to realize that oftentimes when we are helping somebody,

555
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: we're planting a seed that might not bloom or pop

556
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: up from the ground for years. And when I take

557
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: on that perspective, it helps me not overstep my own

558
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: personal boundaries and go into that rescuer mode that actually

559
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: hurts both of us.

560
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

561
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: I think the other thing that came to mind is

562
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: maybe helps you distinguish which of those you're in, Like

563
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 2: am I in enabling or rescuing or am I in supportive?

564
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: Helping? Support is I think a helpful word.

565
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 4: Because supportive is important word. I'm glad you said that.

566
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: I think it we have a different idea of what

567
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: it means to be as support versus even like help, rescuer, nurture.

568
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: But it is unique to each of us, right because

569
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: it has a lot to do with like your own capabilities,

570
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 2: your own resources, your own lines, your own limitations. I

571
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: think about like really listening to your own reactions to

572
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: things like am I anxious when I'm helping react?

573
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 3: You know?

574
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: Am I feeling guilty? Am I feeling fearful? If I'm

575
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: in that kind of like sort of emotional activated sort

576
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: of space in myself where there's something bubbling in me

577
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: and I just am like, Okay, I'll come do that

578
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: for you, or let me tell you here's a meeting,

579
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: or like let's just take a minute, or don't do that,

580
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: or let me take you over here. Like we could

581
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: feel that there's something unsettled in us that wants to

582
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: do we're just doing something with that by trying to

583
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: get the other person to do something myself. Yeah, that's

584
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: usually where we're in the enabling rescuing territory.

585
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: One of the most helpful things I heard, I want

586
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: to say this was from Amanda Elkins said this to

587
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: me when I was activated.

588
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 4: She said, their chaos.

589
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: Is not your emergency, and that has been a life

590
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: changer again, not just as a therapist, like in my

591
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: personal life. When I notice myself being like I have

592
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: to drop everything. Sometimes that's what you do. Your friend

593
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: is broken down on the side of the road, they're stranded,

594
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: they ran to gas. Yeah, I'm gonna stop playing this

595
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: game and I'm going to go now. Let's say it's

596
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: the seventeenth time they've run out of gas in that

597
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: same spot. It's a little different and that has moved

598
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: from oh, this fluke accident to this is this chaos

599
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: that I create in my life. I'm not helping them

600
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: at this point. I'm just helping them realize that they

601
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: can keep doing this all right. So this I found

602
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: to be a very interesting question as well. And I've

603
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: been in this space many of times. Should we be

604
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: sober with the people who are recovering, or can I

605
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: have a drink or smoke weed, or shop or whatever

606
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: in front of this person when I'm with this person.

607
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: If I go to dinner with a friend who's sober,

608
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:26,719
Speaker 1: can I order a glass of wine?

609
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: I think it's so great if anybody even thinks of

610
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: this when they know that people have these issues in

611
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: their life, because I will say most people don't. I

612
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: think most people don't think about changing their own behavior.

613
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 2: I think we think about other people figuring it out,

614
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: you know, figuring out how to cope with the world

615
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: as the world is. And so I want to first

616
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: applaud the person who asked this question in being considerate

617
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: in that way and thinking outside of yourself. I think

618
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,479
Speaker 2: that you've got to have conversations with those people, and

619
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: that's the only way to know, because honestly, everyone has

620
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: a different answer and it has a lot to do

621
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 2: with depending on where they are and what's going on

622
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: in your specific relationship to them. So I think if

623
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: you know that this is an issue for them, then

624
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: you're probably close enough to have this conversation, because most

625
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: people don't just share about that with everybody. And there's

626
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 2: two pieces. I think it's their job to tell you

627
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: what they're comfortable with because you can't know, and I

628
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: think it's okay for you to have your own comfort

629
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: about it. Yeah, like even if they were to say

630
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: I'm okay with it, but just you just felt like,

631
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: I want to honor joining this person. I want to

632
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: be a space where they can hang out and this

633
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: can be a dinner where nobody's drinking and they just.

634
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 3: Get to have that. I think that's okay too.

635
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 4: I love that you using that.

636
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: I want to honor no matter where somebody is in

637
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: their journey, but I want to honor that this has

638
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: been something that you are working on. It might not

639
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: be a big deal for you, but I want you

640
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: to know that this matters to me. Yeah.

641
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 2: And I think I mean again, like people can be

642
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: reading between a lot of lines, like if I never

643
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: talked about it and I just never ordered a drink

644
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: after they got sober and I used to and they

645
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: know I do. When I go out with all the

646
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: other they might feel like you're tippy tailing around them

647
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 2: and that might not feel super respectful. But if I mean,

648
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: everybody's job is to talk about what's going on, he

649
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: talk about you. Yeah, So if you're able to say, like, yeah, no,

650
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: i'd actually like enjoy just not having a drink tonight

651
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: with you, Like I appreciate the space to be able

652
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: to do that in my life too, that's a way

653
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: to make it not a big thing, but to also

654
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: honor because I think it is an incredibly I don't

655
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 2: even want to use the word. I think it's more

656
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,479
Speaker 2: than disciplined when people maintain sobriety and the world around

657
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: us is not doing that to such a high degree

658
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: that it is here in America. But like, I think

659
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: it's a really integree integral integrity, that's the word I'm

660
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: looking for, way to live, like to live in the world,

661
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 2: and so to say, like, I actually have a lot

662
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: of respect for this, and I'm not going to be

663
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: sober for the rest of my life, like that's not

664
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: my calling, but I appreciate that there's a space that

665
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 2: I can kind of step into honoring that and experiencing

666
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 2: a bit of that or whatever.

667
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 3: Then I think it's a there's a lot of respect

668
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 3: to be.

669
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: Given to people who are doing that, and so I

670
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: think that's an opportunity that isn't maybe so obvious. And

671
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: then it's just a matter of like, yeah, where's that

672
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: person at Can they be and relate close relationship with

673
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 2: people who drink regularly? And then they have to be

674
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 2: honest about that and you have to figure out where

675
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: you at, like is that something that you are ready

676
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: to navigate in your life along with that person? And

677
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: sometimes you might be, and sometimes you might not, or

678
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: you might be able to figure out a lot of

679
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: in betweens of these certain spaces we do, these certain

680
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: spaces we don't.

681
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: Goes to the theme of it's not black and white

682
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: and are right or wrong and it's not one person's responsibility. Yeah,

683
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: what do you think about this idea that somebody struggled

684
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: with let's say pain medication but drinks, or somebody who

685
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: drinks who struggled with drinking, who now maybe smokes weed.

686
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: What do you think about I'm sober from my old

687
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,479
Speaker 1: drug of choice? Can I start using something else?

688
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting thinking about this coming from a

689
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 2: loved one, like from someone who's watching someone else, because

690
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, it's kind of not your business, Like

691
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: it's like their business, Like I know, I know it

692
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: affects us, and it might be affecting you in some

693
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: way that they are doing that. But we might have

694
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 2: talked a little bit about this in the Like Addiction episode,

695
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: because I think it, in its truest format, falls into

696
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: that category of like I feel, you know, most addicts

697
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: are the ones having to ask that question of themselves,

698
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: and this may be a sort of caution of like,

699
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: am I trying to know things for someone else? Am

700
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: I trying to you know, make it right or okay

701
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: when it's you know, or make myself feel better about

702
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 2: somebody else's issues.

703
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 4: The chaos coming.

704
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I see this, and I'm foreseen as being

705
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: a problem when I need to know the answer so

706
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 1: I can either help them.

707
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 3: Or how can I be a good way?

708
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and impressioning alcohol, it feels like a little similar

709
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: in that way where the lines are blurred because we're

710
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,479
Speaker 2: affected in the relationship by that thing that we try

711
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: to have an understanding of, like what's the right way

712
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 2: to do it? So that way I know how to

713
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 2: posture myself in it. But from my experience, most people

714
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: who have struggled with the significant substance addiction have had

715
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: a really hard time managing any substance use in their life.

716
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: That's the statement I'll put out there. And I have

717
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 2: met people who have been able to do that in

718
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: ways that have not appeared to be dysfunctional or damaging

719
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: in their lives from what you were able to see.

720
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: From what I could see and what I knew.

721
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean, of course it's possible, and there

722
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: are outliers, but it's not the majority of what you

723
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 2: see with addiction, especially substances because in a lot of ways,

724
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: what's happening neurologically and chemically is so similar with different substances,

725
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 2: even though there are small variations. And the also the

726
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: psychological piece of like what it means to reach for

727
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: something outside of me that is chemical to manage things

728
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 2: inside of me that are stressful, which is usually what's

729
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 2: happening even with I mean, that's what most of us

730
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 2: are using any kind of food or whatever for.

731
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 3: It's like it does help.

732
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 2: Regulate something that's hard, that is really hard for that

733
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: sort of neuropathway, that experience of this is what that

734
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: means for us, Oh we're here, We're back in that

735
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: way of doing life, that way of managing hard things,

736
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 2: that way of celebrating. It's hard for all of those memories,

737
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 2: that's when they've been at such a high severe level

738
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 2: to just not get activated. And probably depending on the

739
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 2: severity of those substances and of the addiction, that can vary.

740
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: Well, and what's coming up for me as I think

741
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: about Well, that's why these process addictions come up so

742
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: often is because they are oftentimes things that are not

743
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: demonized in culture and sometimes idealize like working out that

744
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: is something that like an exercise addiction is something that

745
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: a lot of people cannot wrap their heads around because

746
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: it's taking care of my health, and the same with orthorexia.

747
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: And when this gets into the disordered eating, it's like, well,

748
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: now I'm actually doing something good for me. But if

749
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 1: we're not consistently actually paying attention and attacking the root

750
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 1: of a lot of this stuff, we're just gonna flip

751
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: flop and move from thing to thing. Now can we

752
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: control and be like the policing if other people are

753
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: doing this, No, that's much bigger than us, and again

754
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: chaos that does not belong to us. And at the

755
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: same time, I think I'm saying this really for anybody

756
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: who's like, oh, I stopped doing this, but now I'm

757
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: doing this, but I can't not do it. Well, let's

758
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: just pay attention to is that thing also turning into

759
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: something that maybe at a different level, has not affected

760
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: us yet and doesn't seem as scary yet. But man,

761
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: have I seen exercise addictions threaten people's lives? And man

762
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: have I seen people getting on their wellness journey turn

763
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: into somebody who actually has to be in a hospital

764
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: because they can't eat anymore?

765
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 4: So switching one thing to another.

766
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: What you're saying is we're still medicating that dysfunction and

767
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: that disease in the brain rather than treating it head on. Yeah,

768
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: and I will say self medicating.

769
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you've had a substance addiction, then you also

770
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: have a sensitivity to that problematic. There's also just that

771
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 2: kind of likelihood, right, like if you have had an

772
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: eating disorder, that exercise is probably going to be difficulty

773
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: to Like, there are just links that make things more

774
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: sensitive for us to manage, and some people are able

775
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: to do that and it's not problematic.

776
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 3: I believe that is.

777
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: A true statement, and so I like, I don't want

778
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 2: to throw that everyone who is an alcoholic and now

779
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: smoke sweed every once in a while, yeah, has a

780
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: huge issue and is still an active addiction in their lives.

781
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 3: That's not a fair.

782
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: Well it's yeah statement, it's not because I'm speaking from

783
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: my personal experience. If I'm somebody who heavily over exercise

784
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: and really struggled with that, and did I have to

785
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: do a lot of in between work to get to

786
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: this place, yes, And do I have to continuously hold

787
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: myself accountable and probably divulge more information about my actions

788
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: than I want to have to. Yes, But I was

789
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: somebody who was addicted to and could not not do

790
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 1: and was actually hurting my body to now I learned

791
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 1: how to be able to do that in a way

792
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: that is helpful. And it's one of those it's like

793
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: one of those things you can't I mean you can,

794
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: but you can't like really not exercise. But maybe I'm

795
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: doing it in a different way. Maybe I'm doing different

796
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: types of things, and maybe I have to take some

797
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: space away from the certain type of exercise I did before.

798
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: But I think it is important. We can't. It's not

799
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: black and white.

800
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 2: So if you're the loved one and you're trying, you're

801
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: trying to kind of understand what feels healthy and what

802
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: feels unhealthy with what I see this person doing, then

803
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 2: I think the question that is the same. It's revert

804
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: go back to question one of this episode where we

805
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: talk about how is it affecting me and the health

806
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: of the relationship. Yeah, and does that feel doable to me?

807
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: Yeah?

808
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: Is that a kind of relationship that or is it

809
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: having is it bleeding in into some kind of realm

810
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 2: of unhealth in the relationship where I'm not feeling like

811
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: this is there are dysfunctional things or there are problematic

812
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 2: things that are likely or potentially coming out of this place. Yeah,

813
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 2: that's how I need to assess it as the person

814
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: outside of.

815
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: It, which is a beautiful first full circle to close

816
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: this out, all right, So if you guys enjoyed this episode,

817
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: that one makes me very happy. And two, if you

818
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: have any feedback, questions, thoughts, concerns, please send them to us.

819
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: You can always email me Katherinet you Need Therapy podcast

820
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: dot com, follow the podcast at you Need Therapy Podcasts

821
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: and at Kat dot Defada on Instagram. And thank you

822
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: Tara for spending not one, but two hours helping get

823
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: this information out there, which, again going back to why

824
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: I even started this.

825
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 4: I was talking about this with somebody.

826
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 3: The other day.

827
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: This podcast I started because I started thinking about how

828
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: many things I know about and talk about every day,

829
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: Like I could go to dinner with you and we

830
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: could talk about this and it would almost it would

831
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 1: feel normal, right, But that's not something that happens really

832
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: in the world, and I forget that because this is

833
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: the world I live in. And just like somebody who

834
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: might start an accounting podcast, it's like they talk about

835
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 1: it all the time, but I have no idea what

836
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: this means, and so I'm just grateful that one there's

837
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: people that are getting something out of this and find

838
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: it valuable, because I don't know if I would be

839
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,720
Speaker 1: inclined to know about all this stuff if I didn't

840
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: have to starting because of my job, right, Yeah, And

841
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: I'm just grateful for that people want to hear this,

842
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: And I'm grateful that there's people like you who are like, yeah,

843
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: i'll take two hours and I'll share some of this

844
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: with people, So you're welcome.

845
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: There's a quote from ellan On that I thought would

846
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 2: be a great little maybe ending to the Okay loved

847
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 2: one episode, and alan On is in a resource that

848
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: I would recommend everyone use if you're in relationship with

849
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: anyone who's struggling with addiction, because that's what the whole

850
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: group is for, is to support you in that. But

851
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 2: it says, it's kind of a hopeful little message for

852
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: those people in that space, and alan On, we discover

853
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 2: that no situation is really hopeless, and that it is

854
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 2: possible for us to find contentment and even happiness, whether

855
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 2: the addict is still using or not.

856
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: Oh that beautiful.

857
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: It is and it feels counterintuitive and it's true.

858
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So for those people like can I be in

859
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 2: the relationship people? If you go to alan On, there

860
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: people are in there who are happy and content and

861
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: peaceful and are.

862
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 4: What is alan On? Because so many I wouldn't have

863
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 4: known what that is? So what is that?

864
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 2: Allan On is a twelve step group that was a

865
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 2: sort of spin shoot off from AA When it first started,

866
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: it was the second A I think was. Alan On

867
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 2: is twelve step group support group similar to AA, but

868
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 2: it's for anyone who knows someone who has an addiction.

869
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: So all of you are welcome, but for everybody. And

870
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: I started going to those meetings when I started as

871
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: a therapist because it.

872
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: Helping professionals who work addicts, Oh my god, because it's

873
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: hard to be in that kind of relationship with someone

874
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 2: who's sick, ye struggling.

875
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, so it can be professional and personal.

876
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 3: That's right.

877
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 4: So thank you.

878
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: And next week we have a special surprise. I'm not

879
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: going to say too much, but it is. It happened

880
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 1: just naturally how which I'm so grateful for and reminds

881
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: me that there are powers greater than me out in

882
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: the world because I wouldn't have set this up. But

883
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 1: we have a third perspective when it comes to addiction,

884
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: and that's coming next week, and that is that of

885
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: the addict, which I don't think I have ever had

886
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: that conversation on the podcast, which is very surprising to me.

887
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited about that. And I will tease this,

888
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: this is somebody that I didn't know. This person well,

889
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: I was friends with his wife. And when I tell you,

890
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: no idea what was going on, no idea, which is

891
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: so helpful to remember because we never know what's going on,

892
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: and it's so easy to judge somebody having a good

893
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 1: life or perfect life by what we are seeing on

894
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: whether it's.

895
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 4: Social media or really face to face.

896
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to have the conversation next week,

897
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: and I'm excited for you guys to hear it as

898
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: a good rounding out of this whole series.

899
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 4: So I will talk to you, guys.

900
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: We'll talk to you on Wednesday, but then i'll talk

901
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: to you again on Monday with this next episode.

902
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 4: Until then, I hope we have the day you need

903
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 4: to have. And that's it.