1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I've been out to 2 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: l A a a few times in my in my career, 3 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: I've had to film different things out there and interact 4 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: with folks out in Hollywood. And one of the odd 5 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: little asides about l A is this location there called 6 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: the Hollywood Hills. It's strange for somebody like me that 7 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: lives down here in the Deep South, but you go 8 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: there and it the roads just kind of snake around you. 9 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: You never know where you're gonna wind up. But I 10 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, you know, when you begin to take 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: it all in and you look down and you can 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: see the city kind of laying out there before you, 13 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: it's quite breathtaking. It's it almost looked as though it's 14 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: not real. It almost does, in fact, seem like in 15 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: that setting that the city is a movie set. The 16 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: views are fantastic. Today, we're going to talk about a 17 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: lady that lived there, that was part and parcel of 18 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 1: that community that people knew, people in very high echelns 19 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: out in Hollywood. We're going to talk about the death 20 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: of Amy Hardwick. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 21 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: body Backs. Some of the toughest scenes that I've had 22 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: to work have taken place as a result of falls 23 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: from great height because I don't know. You you look 24 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: at it and you try to make heads or tails 25 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: out of what actually happened, because sometimes that trauma is 26 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: just so extensive, it's very hard to kind of make 27 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: your way through everything that you have to analyze. Jackie Howard, 28 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: executive producer of Crown Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, I 29 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: gotta tell you this case is is one of those 30 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: cases for me. I can only imagine the trouble that 31 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: the corner had kind of deciphering what they were seeing 32 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: before them. I have so many questions for you, Joe 33 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 1: about this case related to that fall. But let's look 34 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: a little bit at the life of Amy Harwick. She 35 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: was a well known sex therapist in Hollywood. She was 36 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: the ex fiance of Drew Carey, actor and host of 37 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: The Price Is Right. And the night Amy Harwick died, 38 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: she had gone with friends to see a burlesque show 39 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: and she had got home around one o'clock in the morning, 40 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: and at that time she texted a friend that said, 41 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: send me pictures on the green couch and the location 42 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: where they had gone there is a green couch and 43 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: I guess she wanted to see that her friend got 44 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: there and she was having a good time. Amy had 45 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: decided to go home, so as Amy went to her 46 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: third floor apartment, she was attacked. Police theorized that the 47 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: assailant had been waiting on her for hours. We'll talk 48 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: a little more in depth in a minute about the 49 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: scene and what was found. But Joe Amy Hardwick was 50 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: thrown off of the balcony of her third floor apartment. 51 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: That's about a twenty fall. But we also know that 52 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: she was assaulted and attacked in her apartment. How can, 53 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: how does how will this type of investigation be conducted? 54 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: Because an emmy has to distinguish between the injuries caused 55 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: by the assault and the injuries caused by the fall. 56 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: Where do you start? The first place you started is 57 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: at the scene. You want to see if there's any 58 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: kind of evidence, you know, at the scene that would 59 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: give you an indication of, you know, any kind of 60 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: struggle that had happened there, and that certainly you know 61 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: was the case. There was disruption at the scene, There 62 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: was evidence that a door had been breached and broken through. 63 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: There was even blood on the door. They haven't released 64 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: a lot of information in regards to that blood as 65 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: to actually who the blood belonged to, but that is significant. 66 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: It's a significant bit of information. That's something that is 67 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: totally atypical. You don't expect to walk into a well 68 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: maintained living area, and from the accounts that are friends 69 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: have put forward alight, this apartment is absolutely gorgeous. I mean, 70 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: it's it's beautiful. If you could see this building, it's 71 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of got a tutor appearance to it, you know, 72 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: a high pitched roof. It's very well maintained and I'm 73 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: sure very high end. We talked about the Hollywood Hills 74 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: people have talked about. Even her bedroom was very striking. 75 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: You know, she's a sex therapist. I'm sure that it's, 76 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, very luxurious in all those things. She's putting 77 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: forth an image in this environment, and you look for 78 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: things there that are going to give you clues as 79 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: to what happened. Obviously, we know where she wound up. 80 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: You know, she struck a hard surface, you know, after 81 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: a twenty ft fall, But how did she come to 82 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: wind up there? And it's interesting you use the term 83 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: thrown off of the balcony that's not something that we 84 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: just you know, conjured up out of the air. That's 85 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: something that apparently the corner had actually reported to the 86 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: local media. Thrown, you know, that's that's an active word. 87 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: That's that's different than fell. You know, he begin to 88 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: think about thrown. That means that someone in fact has 89 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: to enter into the equation and propel that individual through 90 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 1: the air and over the balcony. And that's not something 91 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: that's easily accomplished. That's something that takes strength. It's something 92 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: that takes force of will in order to do, and 93 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: it's something that you have to be purposed at. I 94 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: would think, you know, there's any number of other places 95 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: that she could have been thrown, thrown through the floor, 96 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: thrown through a window, thrown onto the bed, thrown into 97 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: the bathtub, I don't know, but thrown over a balcony railing. 98 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: And when you see the balcony, for folks that haven't 99 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: seen it, I'll kind of paint a picture for you. 100 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: It gives you the distinct impression of kind of a 101 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: larger form of what's referred to as a Juliette balcony, 102 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: that classic image that we think of Romeo and Juliette 103 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: highly romanticized. It's not a place you would go out 104 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: and take coffee and toast in the morning, and there's 105 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: not a lot of space to it, but it does 106 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: open into her bedroom and so it's a feature of 107 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: this home. And so you've got to make it through 108 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: several levels here, you know, because it's on the third floor, 109 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: her her bedrooms up there on the third floor. You're 110 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: not going to access it, you know, from the top floor. 111 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: You have to access it down below. So whoever did 112 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: this would have had specific knowledge about that area and 113 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: where she lived. I think that that's that's quite fascinating 114 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: in a very interesting piece of evidence and evidence of 115 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: a life that has been lived, that an individual would 116 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: have to have familiarity with it where to find her 117 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: in this particular location, and not a lot of people 118 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: would have been out and about. This happened in the 119 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: wee we hours. It's it's after midnight, two am. Yeah, 120 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: it's at two am. And I think one little aside 121 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: here that's very very important that we can certainly address, 122 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: has happened on the fifteenth of February. Jackie. She had 123 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: been out celebrating with these friends at the burlesque show 124 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: on Valentine's Night. Well, you were talking about how the 125 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: emmy announced to the press that she was thrown off 126 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: of the balcony, before we get back to the body 127 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: and talk about the injuries, how would he have known that? 128 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: I know it has to do with the angle of 129 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: where the body is found, the distance from the building. 130 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: It's good old geometry, trigonometry, all those elm trees that 131 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: I am really no good at. Yeah, you would think that, Well, 132 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: first off, did you have witness to it? You know, 133 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: if that is the font or the well spring from 134 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: where that data is coming from. From an investigative standpoint, 135 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: did somebody physically witness her be projected off of the balcony, 136 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: then you have to think about, well, at what point 137 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: did she pitch off of the balcony? Did she make 138 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: contact with the rail? Is there any evidence that there 139 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: was any kind of blood transfer on the rail? Is 140 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: there any evidence that maybe someone had put their hands 141 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: on the rail, put their hands on her maybe if 142 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: she's wearing clothing, was the back of her collar clutched 143 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: with a bloody handprint, or maybe her backside or maybe 144 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: her ankles. Where you get this idea that maybe she 145 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: was pitched out. A person that is just falling will 146 00:08:55,320 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: not generally have the ability to project themselves. And another 147 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: thing that you have to factor in here, and you 148 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: had mentioned this earlier, is that the corner actually stated 149 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: that she had sustained two types of trauma. She not 150 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: only sustained blunt force trauma, which is generally associated with 151 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: the fall and impact injury. Okay, and we can dig 152 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: dig into that, but also there was evidence in the 153 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: soft tissue of her neck that she had been a 154 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: strangled or manually throttled in some way. That there was 155 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: deep tissue hemorrhage there and a significant enough so that 156 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: the corner made note of it and thought that it 157 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: was genuine finding something that's not associated with a fall. 158 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: When we look at these types of injuries like this, 159 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: and people that have listened to bodybags now they know 160 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: that we talked about things like anti mortem injuries before death. 161 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: We talked about perimortem injuries, and then we talked about 162 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: post mortalm injuries. And you know, just to kind of 163 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: break that down, if you have an anti mortem injury 164 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: that gives you some kind of indication that when the 165 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: person sustained the injury which is obviously prior to death, 166 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: that there's been time for that to begin, at least 167 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: even at a cellular level, for healing to start. Okay, 168 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: where the traumatized area gives evidence that you know, there's 169 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: some type of work being done at a cellular level. 170 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: With perimortem injury, what you'll have and this distinguishes it 171 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: from post mortem perimortem. You have focal areas of hemorrhage, okay, 172 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: but there's no evidence of healing. So you know that 173 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: the moment time, that time when the person lost their life, 174 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: you think about you know, there's probably a lot of 175 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: fracturing that's associated with this, and then you've got the 176 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: soft tissue hemorrhage. You began to look at this thing 177 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: as logically as you possibly can't think, well, would somebody 178 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: hurt their neck, particularly like their anterior neck, and when 179 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: I say anterior, I mean front okay, blow the chin. 180 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: Would they have injured that area in a well, there's 181 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: not a likelihood of that. Okay, you can strike something 182 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: and leave a linear mark. But I think what the 183 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: emmy saw relative to her neck is possibly and I 184 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: have no way to prove this at this moment time, 185 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: but that Emmy may have seen a contused area, are 186 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: bruised area that may very well may have matched up 187 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: with shape that appear consistent with the human hand. I 188 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: need to back up on you for just a second 189 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: job because we are going to talk very in depth 190 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: about the injuries to the body, but I got to 191 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: talk about this idea of her being thrown again. The 192 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: Emmy is going to measure where the body fell, the 193 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: distance from the building, because usually if it's an accidental fall, 194 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: if I'm understanding things as I've learned from you and 195 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: Nancy through the years and and her panel of experts, 196 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: usually if you fall, then you are going to tell 197 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: yourself is pretty much straight down. It's not gonna be 198 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: ten or fifteen feet or and I'm I'm sorry, I'm 199 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: distance challenge, it's not, you know, but it's not going 200 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: to be at an angle from the building and at 201 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 1: a distance, right, yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right when an 202 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: individual free falls, essentially particularly from the short of a height. 203 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: And don't get me wrong, I'm not diminishing the trauma 204 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: that that was inflicted upon Amy's body, but when you 205 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: think about you know, twenty ft is a lot different 206 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: than two feet Okay, so it's easier to kind of 207 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: size this up if you will. When you begin to fall, 208 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: you were doing the greatest battle in the world from 209 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: a physics standpoint, with one of the most overwhelming forces 210 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: in nature, and that's gravity. Remember gravity, It's not like, 211 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, when we talk about other elements that factor 212 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: into death investigation, we're not talking about things like heat 213 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: and environmental changes. We're talking about a constant and that's 214 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: in your universal Gravity is going to impact us all 215 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: no pun intended. We know what it's like to fall down. Generally, 216 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: when we fall, our people pass out. For instance, say 217 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: if you're deprived of of oxygen and you just kind 218 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: of fall over, you're gonna fall essentially straight down. But 219 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: when you get this kind of projected event, you have 220 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: to begin to think about, well, how far away from 221 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: that leading edge of the balcony would you have had 222 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: to have kind of been propelled out from in order 223 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: to wind up this particular distance away or forward of 224 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: of the edge the leading edge of that balcony. And 225 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: I think that that's probably what they're looking at. It's 226 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: going to be variable. None of these numbers are static 227 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: because there's too many variables to factor into But I 228 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: think that you can kind of classify by looking at 229 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: it and think, well, if if she was pitched and 230 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: we don't know what position her body was in, that's 231 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, one of the reasons I was saying earlier, 232 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, is their evidence that she was grabbed by 233 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: a collar by her backside and just kind of thrown 234 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: up in the air like a you know, like a 235 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: bail of hay, where she pitched outward maybe three to 236 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: five ft. And how much strength would it take to 237 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: propel a woman who probably weighed roughly about a pounds. 238 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: How far can you toss someone like that? And apparently 239 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: it was significant enough to get the idea that she 240 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: was out away from the balcony, that she didn't just 241 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: simply tip over the edge and fall straight now, and 242 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, with gravity having the totality of the effect 243 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: relative to her death, this is something where she would 244 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: have had to have been propelled out from the edge 245 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: and she fell through the air perhaps I don't know, 246 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: three to four feet away from the balcony, And that's 247 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: one of the things that the emmy struggles with. The 248 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: key here though, and I find this quite interesting, is 249 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: again back to this idea that they released this information, Jackie, 250 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: How are they able to draw these conclusions because guess what, 251 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: when folks first arrived at the scene relative to Amy 252 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: and they did the initial assessment, she's still alive. They 253 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: extricated her from that scene, They extricated her from the 254 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: ground beneath that balcony, and removed her from her home 255 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: to Cedar Sin. I speculatively, how do you make that? 256 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: Because it is numbers. You know, you've mentioned trigonometry. It 257 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: is numbers. When you begin to think about this, how 258 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: exactly do you come up with a formula when you're 259 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: absent a body, just as kind of an outside observer. 260 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: It makes you think that, well, maybe maybe the police 261 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: had more information, or maybe the m E has more 262 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: information than we're fully aware of. Is there a difference 263 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: in the injuries from whether you are thrown at this 264 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: height or fall from this height? Does the force that 265 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: propelled you had in difference in the impact and the 266 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: damage it makes to the body. I think that perhaps 267 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: you have what's referred to as kind of a inertial 268 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: energy that you know, given the mass of your body, 269 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: when you tip over and fall, you generate a certain 270 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: a certain velocity. Okay, and maybe that could be sped 271 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: up to a certain degree if you're cast and when 272 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: I say cast, pitched, thrown, propelled, but it's gonna be negligible. 273 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: What's really going to dictate most injuries, and I talked 274 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: about this with people that I teach my classes, What 275 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: really dictates the type of injury that you're gonna have 276 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: is the surface that you strike. You think about anybody 277 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: that falls and they strike, say a pile of leaves, 278 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: all right, a lot of that energy is going to 279 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: be absorbed by that soft surface. But if you strike 280 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: say a poor concrete area and assphalt area, that energy 281 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: is not going to dissipate as read. It's not going 282 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: to kind of range out away from the body, is 283 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: going to be self contained and kind of focal to 284 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: wherever you make these points of impact. That's one of 285 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: the ways that we tell many times when people will 286 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: come up with these stories about, yeah, well my kid 287 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: he fell and he broke his leg. Okay, You've got 288 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: some person that comes into emergency room and they make 289 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: that comment about you know, broken leg on a on 290 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: a child or a shoulder or something like that, and well, okay, 291 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: it's pretty nasty injury. They've got a compound common uty fracture, 292 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: you've got the bone protruding. Okay, I see that maybe 293 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: they fell and they struck that one location, but how 294 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: do you get all these other non associated bruises, these 295 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: points of impact. That means that something else has been 296 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: going on. So if it's a one off event where 297 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: let's say she falls, Amy falls and strikes, say the 298 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: point of contact, and I don't know this for a fact, 299 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: but the point of contact is, say the top of 300 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: her head, all right, Well, then you will have a 301 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: focal area of hemorrhage. It'll be probably an underlying fracture 302 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: that's going to center on the top of her head 303 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,239 Speaker 1: and it will kind of extend out. That fracture will 304 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: extend out. You might even have what's referred to as 305 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: a depressed skull fracture at that point in time, and 306 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: it's it's extending out almost like a cracked eggshell. You 307 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't expect to see multiple fractures that are from multiple strikes. 308 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: It's a single strike, all right, And according to what 309 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: the corner is saying, at least at this point in time, 310 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: she had trauma to both her head and her of 311 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: her body. So maybe just maybe we're not talking about 312 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: a single strike to the top of the head. Maybe 313 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: when she impacted, not only did she impact the side 314 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: of her head, perhaps, but she also impacted her shoulder, 315 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: and so these things are gonna be kind of married 316 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: up as the single event, those two single points of contact, 317 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: and she fell with such ferocity that she sustained fractures, 318 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: and certainly it was enough to bring about her death. 319 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: I don't think that the public at large understands that 320 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: one of the leading causes of death in our country 321 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: is blunt force trauma when it comes down to traumatic events, 322 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: because you know, there are more people that are involved 323 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: in fatal car accidents than just about any other kind 324 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: of trauma related event that's out there, and so we 325 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: deal a lot in the medical legal world with blunt 326 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: force trauma in car accidents in particular, blunt force trauma 327 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: is in fact the leading cause of death, but it 328 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: can be very confusing because the injuries that are sustained 329 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: with blunt forced trauma are so extensive, and you know, 330 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: you'll your people described them as being massive. I don't 331 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: know at this point in time, Jackie, if I can 332 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: say that her injuries are massive because what we do 333 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: understand is that when the authorities arrived at the scene, 334 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: she at least had what's referred to as an agonal respiration. 335 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: She had some sign of life enough that they tried 336 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: to resuscitate her and took her to the hospital, and 337 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: of course she eventually died there at Cedar Suna. Let's 338 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: look closer at Harwick's injuries. She had injuries to her brain, 339 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: to her liver, and to her pelvis from her fall 340 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: in the apartment balcony to the ground was about twenty 341 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: She also had severe injuries and deep marks on her neck, indicating, 342 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, that she had been strangled before 343 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: she fell. Then you have, as you were talking about, 344 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: before the break, all of these injuries from the fall itself. 345 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: How does an emmy go about laying those out? I 346 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: think that one of the things that you have to consider, 347 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: because one of the questions that will come up is, 348 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: you know, we're we're talking about these locations of injuries. 349 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: We talked about the head, when we talked about the liver. 350 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: You mentioned the liver, and certainly talked about the pelvis. 351 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: So that gives you an indication as to perhaps how 352 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: she impacted. If it's a single one off. All. Let's 353 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: say that they were able to rule out that she 354 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: had been You mentioned the liver for instance. Liver is 355 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: a particular area that you can see when somebody has 356 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: been beaten in the abdomen. If our listeners will essentially 357 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: find the bottom of your rib cage on the right 358 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: side of your body kind of snugged up in that 359 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: area is your liver, all right, and it's not completely 360 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: protected by the rib cage. It's there, it's exposed, so 361 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 1: it's really easy to get to and I've I've had 362 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: cases where people have been kicked to death in the liver. 363 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: Liver can be very fragile. People find this kind of odd. 364 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: One of the things that we talked about in UM 365 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: in forensic pathology medical legal death investigation is that you'll 366 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 1: hear pathologists or reed pathologists do an examination of the 367 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: organs of the body and the liver in particular. They'll 368 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: refer to as these injuries of the of the liver 369 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: as a laceration, but they'll also call it a hepatic 370 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: fracture hepatic having to do with the liver. And when 371 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: you see the liver and the surface of it after 372 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: it's sustained an impact injury, it actually has the appearance 373 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: Jackie of a fracture. It kind of radiates out, it 374 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: will be very jagged, and the gut itself will begin 375 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: to fill up with blood. And people will die very 376 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: very quickly as a result of this, because you know, 377 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: the liver has a tremendous amount of blood supply, so 378 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: you begin to clip those little vessels in there. If 379 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: you don't get treated, you'll essentially lose blood and you'll 380 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: die of internal bleeding. But let's think about if this 381 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: is a one off fall where she's got head injury, 382 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: she's got a liver injury, and she's got a pelvic injury. Well, 383 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 1: how would you sustain that in a single fall. Well, 384 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: the only thing I can really think about is that 385 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: if you are falling through the air, you're not tipped 386 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: toward the top of your head or to the soles 387 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: of your feet. You're essentially pancaking in at this moment time. 388 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: So one of two things, you will either essentially imagine 389 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: somebody doing a belly flop off of a diving board 390 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: and we know what kind of impact that creates. And 391 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: certainly the surface that Amy fell onto was not forgiving 392 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: that energy as a result of that impact would transfer 393 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: to these points of contact, you know, where she struck 394 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: the ground with her head and the hepatic region of 395 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: her abdomen and certainly her pelvic region, So it would 396 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: have to come about simultaneously. Some people say, well, could 397 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: she have landed on her back flat and had this happened? Yeah, 398 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: I supposed that she could have. But you know, the 399 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,239 Speaker 1: way we're kind of designed with our spine is that 400 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: often equated to you know, when we curl up, you know, 401 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: we kind of almost take on a tortoise like appearance. 402 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: You know, our our spine creates this kind of shell 403 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: like position for us. It would be very difficult, I think, 404 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: to generate that kind of injury to the liver. My 405 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: money would either be she would strike facedown or perhaps 406 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: on her right side, so that you've got involvement with 407 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: the pelvis, the hepatic region, and of course the head 408 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: injury and all of these these specific areas. You know, 409 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: I talked about how vascular the liver is, and you've 410 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: got tons of tiny vessels in there that cause you 411 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: to bleed out into the gut. What do you have 412 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 1: in the pelvis? Oh, my gosh. Well, there's all kinds 413 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: of vessels in there, and the pelvis is an odd bone. 414 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: When you you break it, it's oddly shaved, it's an 415 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: irregular bone, and so it fractures in these odd kind 416 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: of ways. And there's a lot of vest in there, 417 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: and most obvious you have the femoral artery is rooted 418 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: up in there. It kind of passes through what you 419 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: call a frayman. A frameman is a ten dollar word 420 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: that physicians and anatomus to use for a hole in 421 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: the bone, and it passes through these areas through there, 422 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: and so the from for moral artery can be clipped, 423 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: and if that happens, that's deadly. And then not to 424 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: mention what's going on in the skull with a closed 425 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: head injury again very vascular region. You begin to bleed 426 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: out essentially see page is taking place, and blood will 427 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: kind of leach out into those soft tissues around the 428 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: brain within the brain, and the brain begins to swell 429 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: and the person eventually dies. So you take all of 430 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: those injuries that we have just enumerated the possibility of, 431 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: and then when you finally receive Amy's remains, to take 432 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: a look at them, they've got a devil a job 433 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: on their hands because they begin to look at this 434 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: extensive trauma that she sustained to her torso, but yet 435 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: you still have the neck hang on Joe. I got 436 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: another question about the liver. Is it likely or possible 437 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: that she was beaten and that is part of what 438 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: gave her these injuries to her liver, or is it 439 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: likely those injuries were just caused from the fall. That's 440 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: an excellent question in that you know, I talked about 441 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma and car accidents a little while ago, 442 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: and I'd say, I know that there will be debate 443 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: about this if people hear this, but one of the 444 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: organs that's really impacted by blunt force trauma in cars 445 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 1: many times is the liver. It's so close to the 446 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: surface and again, if you find the bottom of your 447 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: rib cage on the right hand side, it's just tucked 448 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: right there. And it's essentially the largest organ in the body. 449 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: It's massive, and it's got a lot of surface area 450 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 1: and again a lot of vessels running passing through it. 451 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: When you have a traumatized liver, the surgeons that can 452 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: get to the liver that begin to repair it have 453 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: got a devil of the time, because there are all 454 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: these little microfractures that you get in there, and you've 455 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: got these little beaty vessels that have been ruptured. Many 456 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: times the surgeons will go back and say, well, we're 457 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: still looking blood into the gut. We've got to figure 458 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: out what the origin of this is. I could do it, 459 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: it's about my pay grade. I'm not bright enough to 460 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: do that. So my hats off to trauma surgeons that 461 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: are able to do that to assess it. To your point, though, 462 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: I have seen people that have been kicked to death 463 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: in the abdomen, and that point of impact many times 464 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: has been the liver. It's an interesting proposition when you 465 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: begin to think about this that you've already got a 466 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: young lady that, according to the corner, has got trauma 467 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: to her neck. You begin to think, well, gee, you 468 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: know what, what other kind of trauma did she sustain? 469 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: Because there is an ear witness to this event that 470 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: actually heard what they described as bodies not singular but 471 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: bodise falling to the ground. There's a struggle going on, 472 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 1: and it's within earshot of a roommate, and they've heard this, 473 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: and you begin to think, okay, well, you're saying there's 474 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: a struggle. Uh, there's apparently an associated scream that apparently 475 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: emanated from amy. Well what else going on here? You 476 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: know how many? How many layers are we gonna have 477 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: to peel back here to try to understand. Many times, though, 478 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: when you see abdominal trauma, the abdomen is not necessarily 479 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,959 Speaker 1: gonna be opened up. It's not like a gunshot one 480 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: where you've got an open wound, but overlying the hepatic region, 481 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: you know that area that I talked about, this arrival 482 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: of the right rib cage at the base. Many times 483 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: you'll see an overlying contusion. Okay, you'll see an area 484 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: that is read and irritated, are possibly even bruised. And 485 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: you can track this when we open at autopsy and 486 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: reflect back that tissue that's overlying the liver, you'll see 487 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: on the back side of the wall of the abdomen 488 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: there will be a big area of hemorrhage right there 489 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: overlying that area. And then of course it will be 490 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: lying right on top of the liver that's been traumatized. 491 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: And there's a term that we use for this when 492 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: the liver is like are even the spling to you 493 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: hear this a lot. Is a term called maceration, and 494 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: it just it's a fancy term for saying that the 495 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: organ has been beaten to bits. It's been almost pulpified. 496 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: You know. I don't know that that's necessarily the case 497 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: in Amy's case, but she apparently sustained significant abdominal trauma. 498 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: We know that. The trick here, though, I think for 499 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: the pathologist is going to be able to delineate the 500 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: order at which this occurred and when it occurred, because 501 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: that this person is going to be asked these questions 502 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: if this case goes to trial, they will be asked, 503 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: what order, doctor, did these injuries take place in? You know, 504 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: you're saying you've got trauma to the neck. It looks 505 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: like there's a strangulation that's going on. Are you sure 506 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: that this happened before she went over the balcony? Or 507 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: did going over the balcony cause this injury? Or was 508 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: this something that happened before she went over the balcony? 509 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: Keep going, Joe, how are they going to It's like 510 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: reading a mystery novel. Don't leave me in And how 511 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: are they going to know this? It's gonna be very 512 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: difficult to know it because you've got to traumatic events 513 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: that by their own admission the corner saying that happened 514 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: in a perimortem state, Okay, that it happened during the 515 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: throes of death. And that's what's gonna make this case 516 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: so difficult. I think for the Emmy to try to 517 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: describe the forensic pathologists that has to sit on the stand, 518 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: are they going to be able to say definitively? You know. 519 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: One of the things that we talked about with Nancy 520 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: he began to have forensic experts that come up on 521 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: the stand. You never talk in absolutes when you're understand 522 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: you say absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, you 523 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: know this is what happened, because that's how you get 524 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: into big trouble. You have to make comments like within 525 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: a degree of scientific certainty. And so I don't know 526 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: that they will be able to say definitively that they 527 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: can give you the order in which these occurred unless 528 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: they're seeing something microscopically. You know. Again, I go back 529 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: to anti mortem injuries and the perimortem injuries. Remember, we've 530 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: got an ear witness to this. It's gonna be real key. 531 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: I think at least that when they have this ear 532 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: witness to this event, can they measure out the time? 533 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: What was the amount of time that we're talking about 534 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: in linear time? You know, from you know, this moment 535 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: time to the last sound that you heard? How long 536 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: did that take to happen? And then it based upon 537 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: that because you've got to bay slide. At that point, scientifically, 538 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: you go back to the pathologist and say, okay, doc, 539 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: are these injuries consistent with what you're seeing here, you know, 540 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: demonstrated on the autopsy table. And it's going to be 541 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: I think at least it's going to be a point 542 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: of contention if this thing comes to trial. Amy Harwick's 543 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: cause of death was listed as blunt force trauma. If 544 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: you have a fall like this, and I'm not talking 545 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: about being thrown, I'm just talking about a fall, would 546 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: it still be listed as blunt force trauma. There's the 547 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: old joke that people make about the fall is not 548 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: that's not what kills you. It's a sudden stop. And 549 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: this this is actually true. There's truth in in that 550 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: bit of morbid humor, and many times, particularly with motor 551 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: vehicle accidents, there's a kind of a way that in 552 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: medical legal death investigation. We frame these things are called 553 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: rapid deceleration injuries, and sometimes that's associated with things like 554 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: striking a fixed object as you're moving through space, you know, 555 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: like in a car. If you're not belted in a 556 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: car and you slam into a bridge abutment. Okay, well 557 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: the car stopped moving. Your body essentially stopped moving when 558 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: you struck the steering wheel or the windshield. But guess what, 559 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: your organs are still moving. People don't think about that. 560 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: For a middlesecond, your organs still moving in your body 561 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: and they get ripped to shreds as this weird event 562 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: that takes place. And I think that you can have 563 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: this kind of event occur with a fall as well. 564 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: The trick is being able to explain this in terms 565 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: that a layman will be able to understand it, particularly 566 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: in a chord, because that's where this really matters. How 567 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: do you frame this so that people understand that it 568 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: was in fact the fall that killed her as opposed 569 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: to this um manual stringulation event, because they're gonna be 570 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: questions that are going to arise relative to that. And 571 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: it seems like you've got all of the information here, 572 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: But sometimes in cases you get so it's such a 573 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: glut of information that it can be confused, and particularly 574 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: for the layman that occupied the jury box, you know, 575 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: they're going to have to be able to make a 576 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 1: decision based on this information that's coming to them from 577 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: the medical examiner. And investigators in cases involving someone like 578 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: Amy Harwick, she led a very interesting life and came 579 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: in contact with a lot of people that brought her 580 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: into the lens of the public. She was strikingly beautiful 581 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: and it was a sex therapist. And so when you 582 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: see her life coming to an end in such a 583 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: violent way, you begin to think about things, well, who 584 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: would be on your short list as far as suspects, 585 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: you know who when she come in contact with Is 586 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: there a history of somebody that's out there that's this 587 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: lurking about in her life, that's harassing her, that's making 588 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: her life pure health, that has left her in fear 589 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: or the restraining orders, And as investigators, that's one of 590 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: the first places you're going to go to because where 591 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: she died is not a place prone to this kind 592 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: of violence. It almost appears like she was targeted in 593 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: some way. Jackie Well, that is exactly what investigators suspect happen. 594 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: In fact, Joe Amy Harwick told family and friends at 595 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: one point, if anything ever happens to me, it's him, 596 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: and that him is an ex boyfriend. His name is 597 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: Gareth purse House. He has now been charged with murder 598 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: and residential burglary with special circumstances allegations of lying in wait, 599 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: and that comes from the fact that police believe that 600 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: he was waiting for Harwick for hours now. When police 601 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: were called, they were called by her downstairs roommate. He 602 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 1: tells police that he woke up and heard something. I'm 603 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: not really sure what he heard. He just assumed that 604 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 1: it was Hardwick coming home from her evening out. Then, 605 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: he says, he goes back to sleep and then is 606 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: woken up by a woman's screams and he was able 607 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,439 Speaker 1: to tell that the screams were coming from above him 608 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: and that it was Amy. He tried to find his 609 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: phone but couldn't so he couldn't call the police. He 610 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: tried to get upstairs and couldn't, and he ended up 611 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: having to climb a fence to get to a neighbor 612 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: to be able to get her some help. And when 613 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: the police came, that's when they found her Amy Hardwick, 614 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: on the ground after being tossed from her balcony. Now 615 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 1: in the apartment, there were several things that were found. 616 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: She had a rosary and it was broke, and the 617 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 1: beads were scattered in multiple rooms of her apartment, which 618 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: tells us that this assault happened basically all over the apartment. 619 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: And then there was another very potent piece of evidence 620 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: that was found, and that was a syringe full of nicotine. 621 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 1: How do you get a syringeful of nicotine when we 622 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: know that harrowit did not do drugs, did not smoke. 623 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: This obviously was not hers, but brought allegedly, police say, 624 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,399 Speaker 1: by purse house. Yeah, you know a few years ago 625 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: we would have been scratching our head a lot more 626 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,720 Speaker 1: over this. You know, the presence of this nicotine filled 627 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: syringe is what the police have kind of identified this as. 628 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: But nowadays, where you have people that are vaping, they're 629 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: vaping liquids, and you know nicotine is a component, it's 630 00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: not that difficult to get. The question is how is 631 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: it acquired from where was it acquired and how was 632 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: it drawn up? Because they specifically say syringe, which means 633 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: that more than likely that there is a needle that's 634 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: associated with this. And one of the things it's quite 635 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: fascinating with this is that the syringe was actually located 636 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: out on the balcony. You know the balcony that we've 637 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: mentioned now several times that she went over the side on. 638 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: Why would it be there was the perpetrator attempting to 639 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: administer this to her, and Jackie you've mentioned the broken 640 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: rosary beads. The beads lead from what are being called 641 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 1: her TV room, through her bedroom and again out onto 642 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: the balcony. So you've almost got this trail of bread crumbs, 643 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: if you will, evidentially bread crumbs that are giving you 644 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: an indication of what may have happened. But let's get 645 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: back to that nicotine syringe. Of your purpose to use 646 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: nicotine in order to do harm to an individual, I 647 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: think that rule you're gonna need an injection of about 648 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: sixty milligrams for an adult that you know might wagh 649 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 1: about twenty pounds. And you know what kind of effect, Well, 650 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 1: first off, it's with a concentration of nicotine. It's gonna 651 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: blow your your blood pressure up through through the roof 652 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,760 Speaker 1: and it will cause you to have a cardiac potentially 653 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: a cardiac event. You know, it's kind of certainly into 654 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: my way of thinking, is certainly kind of an interesting 655 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: way of going about taking somebody's life. Nicotine is something 656 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: that we do, in fact screen for. It's in a 657 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: standard panel. You hear a lot, you know how many 658 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: times if we talked about on Nancy Show, where they'll say, well, 659 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: it's pending toxicology. Well, nicotine is one of the things 660 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: that some office is actually screened for in their standard panel. 661 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,919 Speaker 1: And you say, why do you need to know nicotine, Well, 662 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: it gets to the lifestyle of the individual. What are 663 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: they engaged in, you know, what are they taking into 664 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: their body? And Amy had no history of cigarette use, 665 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: didn't have any history of vaping. She was not druggie 666 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: news drugs. And she's also teetotaler as well. I don't 667 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: know if that's been mentioned, but she didn't imbobe with alcohol, 668 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: so apparently she led a pretty clean lifestyle was relative 669 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,240 Speaker 1: to what she was going to be putting into her body. 670 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: To that point, the corner has not indicated at all 671 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: that there was any nicotine found in her post examination, 672 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: certainly in her toxicology, but it does go to a 673 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,720 Speaker 1: bigger issue here. That means for me at least that 674 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: whoever this perpetrator is, they should have prepared. They showed 675 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: up to do harm. And if you're aiming to do 676 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: harm and you want to use nicotine, which I'm not 677 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: going to say it's something it's an exotic toxin. You know, 678 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: some exotic fish that you've drawn you know, some kind 679 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 1: of toxic uh substance from to inject somebody where it's 680 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: not exotic like that, but it's a typical. That indicates 681 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: to me that you've done some study, you thought about this, 682 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: that you've kind of planned this out. Well, hang on, 683 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,720 Speaker 1: you wouldn't if you brought a syringe with you filled 684 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 1: with nicotine. You're not intending to use that to get 685 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: high or experience some kind of euphoria. That's not what 686 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: that would do to your body, right lord? No, No, 687 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 1: with lethal concentration of nicotine is deadly. I mean it's 688 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: it's deadly. I don't know for whatever purpose you would 689 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 1: use liquified nicotine for drawn up in a syringe. Now, obviously, 690 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: you know we've talked about vaping where people want that 691 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: boost of nicotine. Because of nicotine, one of the addictive 692 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: factors in is it kind of gives you that euphoric 693 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: feeling when you take it on in your system, but 694 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: that's in smaller dosages. When you're talking to a bump 695 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: of something like sixty milligrams, And again they haven't really 696 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: released how how much was found. But when you start 697 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: to talk about, you know, an injection of that amount 698 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: of bollus that size, I think it would give a 699 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: reasonable person pause to think, why in the world would 700 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: the syringe be in Amy's home. She doesn't have a 701 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 1: nicotine habit. It's not like I don't think she's juicing 702 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: up her her non existent vapes that she doesn't possess. 703 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: So how did it miraculously appear there? And that's a 704 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: huge question. Well, when you begin to think about pure nicotine, 705 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 1: the only thing I can think of is that you're 706 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: either trying to incapacitate them some way to the point 707 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: where they can't fend you off, which would be an 708 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: odd selection, I would think, or you're trying to kill them. 709 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: We know that Amy Harwick and Gareth purse House dated 710 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: for quite some time. We also know that when they 711 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: broke up, he began to stalk her. He began to 712 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: harass her. Reviews of her business and her practice began 713 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: showing up online very detrimental, and she was worried about that. 714 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: And again I mentioned earlier she had told people, She 715 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,479 Speaker 1: had told friends and family that if something happened to her, 716 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: it was him. And in fact, investigators saw that Mr 717 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,759 Speaker 1: Pearce House had similar scratches and bruises on him, and 718 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: his DNA was found at Amy Hardwick's home. Now, of 719 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: course they had been dating for quite some time. Still, 720 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 1: how long it had been since he had been at 721 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: the home, So how is that going to play in? Joe? 722 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,720 Speaker 1: I think that it would like to say down south, 723 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: that dog won't hunt, I think is what that comes 724 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: down to, because you know there's been separation. My god, 725 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: she she had restraining war on this guy. I'm not 726 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: saying that there could not be residual DNA in her dwelling, 727 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 1: But if you've got kind of a robust deposits of 728 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: his DNA in that environment, and he's got a restraining 729 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: order and she is stating unequivocally that she's afraid of him, 730 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: you know, how did it wind up in the apartment 731 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: You talked about how they had charged him with this 732 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,479 Speaker 1: idea of laying in weight. If he's laying in weight 733 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 1: at that moment in time, has he been visiting her 734 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 1: at other times? You know, to are there depositions there 735 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: within that apartment of his DNA that would give an 736 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: investigator pause to think, well, maybe he's been in this 737 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,719 Speaker 1: dwelling when she's not here, kind of wandering around if 738 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,800 Speaker 1: you will. But yeah, I think that that would be 739 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: very difficult because that relationship has been ended for some 740 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: time and there was a lot of violent acting out 741 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: with this. I think that there's even a couple of 742 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: accounts where he may have pushed drive a vehicle and 743 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 1: all these other things and menacing and threatening and you know, 744 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,839 Speaker 1: all that sort of stalking behavior that goes on many 745 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 1: times with these kinds of cases. So from me, I 746 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,799 Speaker 1: think that that would be very very difficult to try 747 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 1: to say, well, yeah, his his DNA. I mean, you 748 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: can say it, you know, but that doesn't mean that, 749 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: you know, you're going to get a jury to buy 750 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: into that line of logic. Gareth purce House has been 751 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 1: charged with murder and first degree residential burglary. Additionally, he 752 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 1: has been charged with special circumstances allegation of lying in Wait. 753 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,760 Speaker 1: A judge has ruled that this case can go forward again. 754 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:33,280 Speaker 1: This case has not been adjudicated. Purse House is innocent 755 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: until proven guilty by court of law. If he has 756 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: found guilty, however, of these charges, he could be sentenced 757 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: to life in prison without the possibility of parole. I'm 758 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgen and this is body Backs.