1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:33,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem. 2 00:00:33,716 --> 00:00:37,276 Speaker 1: My guest today is Near Barzilai. Near is a physician 3 00:00:37,356 --> 00:00:40,876 Speaker 1: and a researcher, and he runs the Institute for Gero 4 00:00:41,076 --> 00:00:44,676 Speaker 1: Science at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York. 5 00:00:45,276 --> 00:00:49,276 Speaker 1: Near's problem is this, how can lifestyle changes and drugs 6 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:53,476 Speaker 1: slow the process of aging. In our conversation, Nier and 7 00:00:53,516 --> 00:00:57,196 Speaker 1: I talk about the search for biological markers of aging, 8 00:00:57,836 --> 00:01:02,156 Speaker 1: existing drugs that might reduce the risk of diseases associated 9 00:01:02,156 --> 00:01:05,276 Speaker 1: with aging, and what he learned by studying the genes 10 00:01:05,316 --> 00:01:09,396 Speaker 1: of people who lived to age one hundred and beyond. Also, 11 00:01:09,756 --> 00:01:12,196 Speaker 1: we talk about the meaning and origin of the term 12 00:01:12,476 --> 00:01:16,076 Speaker 1: gyo science. To start, I asked her how he decided 13 00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:18,076 Speaker 1: to study the biology of aging. 14 00:01:18,756 --> 00:01:22,676 Speaker 2: It actually happened young. It happened with my grandfather that 15 00:01:22,996 --> 00:01:27,196 Speaker 2: walked with me every Saturday telling me about his life 16 00:01:27,436 --> 00:01:30,796 Speaker 2: as a young person. And he was sixty eight. It's 17 00:01:30,836 --> 00:01:36,636 Speaker 2: the year he died. He was looking old, fat, slow, 18 00:01:37,716 --> 00:01:43,276 Speaker 2: and for me it always it almost became immediately clear 19 00:01:44,116 --> 00:01:47,996 Speaker 2: that that's where I'm going, Okay, So it became the 20 00:01:48,076 --> 00:01:53,516 Speaker 2: biggest question in biology of aging. When I went to 21 00:01:53,996 --> 00:01:58,956 Speaker 2: my residency. I had an attending and whenever I presented 22 00:01:58,956 --> 00:02:02,876 Speaker 2: the patient, he would stop me. I would say, this 23 00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:05,116 Speaker 2: is a seventy five year old woman, and he would 24 00:02:05,116 --> 00:02:10,196 Speaker 2: stop and say, but does she look younger than their age? 25 00:02:11,116 --> 00:02:14,236 Speaker 2: And after a while you saw that it mattered. You 26 00:02:14,276 --> 00:02:16,756 Speaker 2: can have a ninety year old guy and it comes 27 00:02:16,756 --> 00:02:18,756 Speaker 2: to the emergency room and he has some infection and 28 00:02:18,796 --> 00:02:21,596 Speaker 2: with some antibiotics, he'll be fine, and a seventy five 29 00:02:21,676 --> 00:02:24,396 Speaker 2: year old woman that all her systems are totally gone, 30 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:28,236 Speaker 2: and you know, you know where she's going, and that 31 00:02:28,276 --> 00:02:33,876 Speaker 2: it's important in decision making. I want to say that 32 00:02:35,276 --> 00:02:39,836 Speaker 2: this is thing that I think people intuitively understand that 33 00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:43,516 Speaker 2: there's a biological age. I think it's more important to 34 00:02:43,636 --> 00:02:50,196 Speaker 2: know that aging, this biology is what drives diseases. It's 35 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:53,156 Speaker 2: not that we get heart attacks and we become old. 36 00:02:53,276 --> 00:02:57,236 Speaker 2: It's the opposite. We become old and that drives diseases. 37 00:02:57,836 --> 00:03:01,156 Speaker 1: I mean, intuitively, we also know that, right you're much 38 00:03:01,196 --> 00:03:03,276 Speaker 1: more likely to get a heart attack at seventy five 39 00:03:03,316 --> 00:03:04,196 Speaker 1: than at twenty five. 40 00:03:05,236 --> 00:03:08,196 Speaker 2: That's true, but let me give an example that you'll 41 00:03:08,236 --> 00:03:13,956 Speaker 2: explain it better. You can be born with genes for Alzheimer's. Okay, 42 00:03:13,956 --> 00:03:17,076 Speaker 2: there's a gene called apo E four. If you have 43 00:03:17,116 --> 00:03:21,076 Speaker 2: two copies of these genes, you are really high risk 44 00:03:21,156 --> 00:03:24,836 Speaker 2: of getting alzheimer at sixty or seventy and you'll be 45 00:03:24,916 --> 00:03:28,156 Speaker 2: dead by the time you're eighteen. But when you're born, 46 00:03:28,716 --> 00:03:31,876 Speaker 2: you're not demented. And when you're one year or ten 47 00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:34,756 Speaker 2: year of fifty year, you're not demented. You meet the 48 00:03:34,796 --> 00:03:39,516 Speaker 2: biology of aging, the failure of our young biology in 49 00:03:39,636 --> 00:03:44,316 Speaker 2: order to get those diseases. And it's important because we 50 00:03:44,436 --> 00:03:48,516 Speaker 2: want to prevent your aging. And this is really the 51 00:03:48,556 --> 00:03:50,996 Speaker 2: biggest issue that we're talking about. 52 00:03:51,036 --> 00:03:53,716 Speaker 1: Now, tell me a little bit more about that. 53 00:03:54,276 --> 00:03:57,436 Speaker 2: So it's based on the fact that around the world 54 00:03:57,636 --> 00:04:01,716 Speaker 2: in the last few decades, we not only went from 55 00:04:01,796 --> 00:04:04,636 Speaker 2: hoping that there is something we can do, but we 56 00:04:04,756 --> 00:04:07,356 Speaker 2: actually have a promise and we're at the stage of 57 00:04:07,436 --> 00:04:13,956 Speaker 2: realizing a promise. And the promise is in what lifestyle 58 00:04:14,116 --> 00:04:18,556 Speaker 2: decisions we make, what drugs are available right now to 59 00:04:18,756 --> 00:04:22,476 Speaker 2: stunt aging, and the drugs that are being developed now 60 00:04:22,556 --> 00:04:24,796 Speaker 2: and are going to make bigger impact. 61 00:04:26,116 --> 00:04:28,316 Speaker 1: Well, so okay, so let's get into it. So here's 62 00:04:28,356 --> 00:04:31,076 Speaker 1: the three that I know. I feel like the big 63 00:04:31,116 --> 00:04:38,916 Speaker 1: three in terms of what you're talking about, exercise, sleep, well, 64 00:04:40,076 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 1: have friends, don't smoke, and eat whole fresh foods. That 65 00:04:46,876 --> 00:04:49,436 Speaker 1: wasn't three, I know, I thought of two more in 66 00:04:49,516 --> 00:04:49,916 Speaker 1: the middle. 67 00:04:50,996 --> 00:04:55,596 Speaker 2: So what you don't do is okay, you know, don't smoke. 68 00:04:56,956 --> 00:05:01,436 Speaker 2: There are four that every one in our field and 69 00:05:01,476 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 2: the longevity doctors and everyone would agree on. And that's exercise, 70 00:05:07,636 --> 00:05:13,556 Speaker 2: its diet, sleep, and it's yeah, social connectivity. Okay. Each 71 00:05:13,636 --> 00:05:18,076 Speaker 2: one of those have underlying biology of aging, and each 72 00:05:18,156 --> 00:05:22,516 Speaker 2: one of them is really important when you're young or 73 00:05:22,636 --> 00:05:27,396 Speaker 2: old to optimize. Okay, we used to say maximize, but optimize. 74 00:05:28,476 --> 00:05:31,716 Speaker 1: So those are the ones that we sort of all know, 75 00:05:32,236 --> 00:05:34,436 Speaker 1: right Whether we do them or not is a different question, 76 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:39,716 Speaker 1: because whose we all lots of people know that those 77 00:05:39,756 --> 00:05:43,356 Speaker 1: things are good, and it is remarkable how good they are, right, Like, 78 00:05:43,876 --> 00:05:46,916 Speaker 1: exercise is so good for so many things in non 79 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:50,676 Speaker 1: obvious ways. Like sure, cardiovascular exercise is good for your heart, 80 00:05:50,756 --> 00:05:53,356 Speaker 1: that's obvious, but like, why does it make you less 81 00:05:53,396 --> 00:05:57,156 Speaker 1: likely to get cancer? This is an interesting question, right, Hey. 82 00:05:56,916 --> 00:06:00,716 Speaker 2: I just answer that because those are affecting the biology 83 00:06:00,756 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 2: of aging a bold claim. Those are affecting the biology 84 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:09,076 Speaker 2: of aging, and when I'm talking of biology of aging 85 00:06:09,316 --> 00:06:14,156 Speaker 2: is cellular aging. So cells all over the body will 86 00:06:14,876 --> 00:06:18,796 Speaker 2: will be younger or stay younger, and that's why you 87 00:06:18,876 --> 00:06:23,556 Speaker 2: get less cancer and less and less cardiovastro disease. 88 00:06:23,716 --> 00:06:26,556 Speaker 1: When you say cellular age, what is the measure of 89 00:06:26,636 --> 00:06:28,316 Speaker 1: cellular age you're referring to? 90 00:06:29,196 --> 00:06:34,116 Speaker 2: Let me say this way. There are twelve things that 91 00:06:34,196 --> 00:06:37,716 Speaker 2: we call hallmarks of aging. Okay, and I'm not going 92 00:06:37,756 --> 00:06:39,956 Speaker 2: to count them. I might give an example throughout. 93 00:06:40,156 --> 00:06:43,716 Speaker 1: Give me one example. What's the what's a particularly robust example. 94 00:06:44,196 --> 00:06:48,396 Speaker 2: Let's say that one of the problems is we have 95 00:06:48,556 --> 00:06:52,996 Speaker 2: a mechanism of garbage disposal in all our cells. And 96 00:06:54,516 --> 00:06:58,956 Speaker 2: this garbage disposal that's often called autophogy, or the scientists 97 00:06:58,996 --> 00:07:03,036 Speaker 2: will call it autophogy, takes junks that accumulate in our 98 00:07:03,076 --> 00:07:06,796 Speaker 2: cells because our selves is making mistakes in its production. 99 00:07:07,636 --> 00:07:10,956 Speaker 2: And it's taking those things that are really not helpful 100 00:07:11,236 --> 00:07:15,516 Speaker 2: and breaking them down to their component. It's going to 101 00:07:15,636 --> 00:07:19,676 Speaker 2: clean yoursels. Okay, Okay, that's what's going to happen now 102 00:07:20,476 --> 00:07:23,036 Speaker 2: every one of the hallmarks. What you have to show 103 00:07:23,276 --> 00:07:27,196 Speaker 2: is first of all, that it gets worse with aging. Second, 104 00:07:27,636 --> 00:07:31,276 Speaker 2: you can take a young model and make it old. Okay, 105 00:07:31,476 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 2: so it was done with autopogy. You knock out autophogy, 106 00:07:35,076 --> 00:07:39,236 Speaker 2: the mice are freaking out. They are becoming older at 107 00:07:39,276 --> 00:07:42,916 Speaker 2: a very young age. But more important, if you fix 108 00:07:42,996 --> 00:07:48,636 Speaker 2: it throughout aging, the mice are not only healthier overall healthier, 109 00:07:48,956 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 2: but they also live like twenty percent longer. Okay, So 110 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:55,556 Speaker 2: that's how you become a hallmark. But the point is, 111 00:07:55,996 --> 00:08:00,436 Speaker 2: whenever you fix one of them, of those hallmarks, you 112 00:08:00,556 --> 00:08:05,156 Speaker 2: really fix also others. Okay. So it's you could take 113 00:08:05,196 --> 00:08:07,676 Speaker 2: one hallmark and show that it's very important, but you 114 00:08:07,716 --> 00:08:09,876 Speaker 2: can do it with each one of them. You don't 115 00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:12,556 Speaker 2: have to do it together. Not that doing it together 116 00:08:12,596 --> 00:08:15,196 Speaker 2: wouldn't be even better, but you don't have to do 117 00:08:15,236 --> 00:08:15,716 Speaker 2: it together. 118 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:18,716 Speaker 1: You're saying, if you fix one, that one working better 119 00:08:18,796 --> 00:08:21,276 Speaker 1: actually helps to fix the others, right. 120 00:08:21,156 --> 00:08:23,396 Speaker 2: And you can see changes in the others. 121 00:08:23,516 --> 00:08:28,156 Speaker 1: And so when you talk about these, you know lifestyle 122 00:08:29,116 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 1: changes like exercise, does your autophogy work better for longer? 123 00:08:36,716 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 1: That basically going. 124 00:08:37,876 --> 00:08:41,876 Speaker 2: On exactly, And I'll give you another example. And I 125 00:08:41,876 --> 00:08:45,516 Speaker 2: can stay on autopogy because we don't have enough time 126 00:08:45,556 --> 00:08:52,916 Speaker 2: to cover the twelve. But how does so exercise fixes autophogy. 127 00:08:53,676 --> 00:08:56,036 Speaker 2: The hard one is diet. And I'll tell you why 128 00:08:56,036 --> 00:09:01,396 Speaker 2: I pick diet, because diet is something that's very individual. 129 00:09:01,596 --> 00:09:05,676 Speaker 2: It's it's it's really you know, if I take people 130 00:09:05,676 --> 00:09:09,316 Speaker 2: and say you should become vegetarians, they're going to which 131 00:09:09,396 --> 00:09:12,596 Speaker 2: proteins with carbohydrates, They're going to get fat or some 132 00:09:12,676 --> 00:09:16,396 Speaker 2: of them, and they're going to actually pay. Their health 133 00:09:16,476 --> 00:09:20,596 Speaker 2: is going to be worse. So it's very in the individual. 134 00:09:20,796 --> 00:09:22,956 Speaker 2: How do you choose diet and how you can actually 135 00:09:23,036 --> 00:09:28,476 Speaker 2: stick to a diet. So when I started my studies, 136 00:09:29,076 --> 00:09:32,756 Speaker 2: the experiment that worked in every lab, I took rats 137 00:09:33,396 --> 00:09:36,356 Speaker 2: and half of them got to eat whatever they wanted 138 00:09:37,036 --> 00:09:40,356 Speaker 2: and the other half I gave them forty percent less 139 00:09:40,356 --> 00:09:44,196 Speaker 2: food forty percent less food, so sixty percent of what 140 00:09:44,236 --> 00:09:49,396 Speaker 2: the others got. The rats that got sixty percent of 141 00:09:49,436 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 2: the food lived healthier and lived longer. What we did 142 00:09:54,276 --> 00:09:57,556 Speaker 2: is we gave the food in the morning to those animals, 143 00:09:57,556 --> 00:10:00,676 Speaker 2: and they were hungry, and they ate the food, and 144 00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 2: they were then fasting for twenty three more hours. So 145 00:10:04,676 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 2: it wasn't only caloric restriction, it was also fasting. In fact, 146 00:10:09,796 --> 00:10:12,636 Speaker 2: when we gave them the food little bit throughout the day, 147 00:10:13,036 --> 00:10:16,276 Speaker 2: they were leaner, but they didn't live much longer, and 148 00:10:16,316 --> 00:10:19,676 Speaker 2: that led to this concept that a lot of us 149 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:24,356 Speaker 2: are doing, including myself, which is intermittent fasting fast as 150 00:10:24,396 --> 00:10:29,596 Speaker 2: many hours as you can. Because what it does almost 151 00:10:29,756 --> 00:10:33,996 Speaker 2: the major thing that happened, it improves atophagy. This is 152 00:10:34,436 --> 00:10:37,316 Speaker 2: easy for most people to do, not for everyone. It's 153 00:10:37,396 --> 00:10:40,396 Speaker 2: easy for most people to do, and we don't know 154 00:10:40,436 --> 00:10:44,916 Speaker 2: if it extends life, but it certainly improves several factors 155 00:10:44,956 --> 00:10:49,956 Speaker 2: that you can look at, such as weight or metabolism 156 00:10:49,996 --> 00:10:50,756 Speaker 2: and other things. 157 00:10:50,836 --> 00:10:52,996 Speaker 1: So we're talking at nine point thirty in the morning. 158 00:10:53,556 --> 00:10:54,796 Speaker 1: When was the last time you ate? 159 00:10:56,636 --> 00:11:00,236 Speaker 2: I actually finished dinner at six pm yesterday because I 160 00:11:00,356 --> 00:11:00,996 Speaker 2: was traveling. 161 00:11:01,356 --> 00:11:02,316 Speaker 1: What's your usual? 162 00:11:03,276 --> 00:11:06,156 Speaker 2: It's usually eight in the evening when I finished dinner, 163 00:11:06,476 --> 00:11:10,036 Speaker 2: which brings me to noontime the next day. And what 164 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:14,356 Speaker 2: I'm having. I'm having black coffee and I'm having you know, water, 165 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:15,956 Speaker 2: but I'm not eating anything. 166 00:11:16,116 --> 00:11:18,636 Speaker 1: How do you feel right now it's been fifteen hours 167 00:11:18,636 --> 00:11:19,716 Speaker 1: since you've eaten. How do you feel? 168 00:11:19,996 --> 00:11:24,276 Speaker 2: I'll tell you the opposite. I was in Europe for 169 00:11:24,316 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 2: two weeks and sometimes I had breakfast, and in the 170 00:11:27,796 --> 00:11:31,996 Speaker 2: days that I had breakfast, I was just miserable, but 171 00:11:32,196 --> 00:11:37,316 Speaker 2: by noontime this is really and people in particular people 172 00:11:37,396 --> 00:11:40,476 Speaker 2: my age will tell you that they feel the benefit 173 00:11:40,556 --> 00:11:47,636 Speaker 2: on their basically cognition, their tiredness, their energy throughout the day. 174 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:53,476 Speaker 1: So you mentioned rats and fasting, and you mentioned mice 175 00:11:53,796 --> 00:11:57,676 Speaker 1: and autophogy, and you know there is that famous line 176 00:11:57,756 --> 00:12:01,316 Speaker 1: mice lie and primates exaggerate, Like to what extent have 177 00:12:01,436 --> 00:12:04,196 Speaker 1: these studies been validated in humans? 178 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:07,476 Speaker 2: I got a grant from our page together with Dan 179 00:12:07,556 --> 00:12:09,076 Speaker 2: Belski from Colombia. 180 00:12:09,156 --> 00:12:10,716 Speaker 1: Our pages. The government basically it. 181 00:12:10,996 --> 00:12:15,196 Speaker 2: Is the government right, and the government totally bought into 182 00:12:15,876 --> 00:12:20,476 Speaker 2: targeting aging and health spin but they funded us for 183 00:12:20,596 --> 00:12:25,556 Speaker 2: a simple reason. There are four drugs probably more that 184 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:30,796 Speaker 2: we know target aging. And when you put those drugs 185 00:12:30,836 --> 00:12:35,996 Speaker 2: on cells, okay, they change the hallmarks of aging utophagy, Okay, 186 00:12:36,476 --> 00:12:40,036 Speaker 2: when you give them to animals, they live healthier and longer. 187 00:12:40,476 --> 00:12:43,596 Speaker 2: And in clinical studies, although those drugs were designed for 188 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:48,716 Speaker 2: a certain disease, they also prevent other diseases. And although 189 00:12:49,076 --> 00:12:52,996 Speaker 2: they were developed for a certain disease, they prevented overall 190 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:56,876 Speaker 2: mortality and not the disease specific mortality. So we take 191 00:12:57,036 --> 00:13:02,156 Speaker 2: studies that were already ended, and we're asking a simple question, 192 00:13:02,276 --> 00:13:06,236 Speaker 2: not only what are the biomarkers of aging, but which 193 00:13:06,316 --> 00:13:08,516 Speaker 2: one are changing with intervention? 194 00:13:09,156 --> 00:13:12,836 Speaker 1: So what exactly is the study that you're doing. 195 00:13:13,236 --> 00:13:18,596 Speaker 2: We we take blood samples that already exist because the 196 00:13:18,676 --> 00:13:23,116 Speaker 2: trials are done of four drugs, and we're looking at 197 00:13:23,156 --> 00:13:26,076 Speaker 2: what happened to each individual, whether he was on a 198 00:13:26,156 --> 00:13:30,436 Speaker 2: drug or on a placebol within the first year of therapy. 199 00:13:30,476 --> 00:13:32,556 Speaker 1: And to be clear, when you say drugs blood samples, 200 00:13:32,596 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 1: do you mean the actual blood or you just mean 201 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:37,076 Speaker 1: the tests that were done on those samples in previous tests. 202 00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:39,876 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, we have to do it's it's 203 00:13:39,916 --> 00:13:44,156 Speaker 2: totally new. We're taking the blood and using. 204 00:13:44,396 --> 00:13:46,676 Speaker 1: So people store the blood from trials. These are trials 205 00:13:46,756 --> 00:13:48,476 Speaker 1: that are years old and the blood has just been 206 00:13:48,516 --> 00:13:50,316 Speaker 1: sitting there in the fridge waiting for you to come 207 00:13:50,356 --> 00:13:54,236 Speaker 1: in the free the freezer. Yeah, of course, and so 208 00:13:54,236 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 1: so and and the drugs are what theyre It's met foreman, rapamycin, 209 00:13:59,796 --> 00:14:02,116 Speaker 1: GLP one, some GLP one drug. 210 00:14:02,436 --> 00:14:04,476 Speaker 2: And s GILT two inhebitors. 211 00:14:04,596 --> 00:14:06,196 Speaker 1: What's that last one. I don't know what that last 212 00:14:06,196 --> 00:14:06,516 Speaker 1: one is. 213 00:14:07,916 --> 00:14:11,236 Speaker 2: This is a very potent drug against aging. It's developed 214 00:14:11,236 --> 00:14:15,516 Speaker 2: for diabetes for sigia in volcana are the common name. 215 00:14:15,556 --> 00:14:19,276 Speaker 2: There are five five manufactures of this drug. 216 00:14:19,676 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 1: So there's the blood in the freezer and you're taking 217 00:14:21,756 --> 00:14:23,396 Speaker 1: it out of the freezer and you're looking at these 218 00:14:23,436 --> 00:14:25,956 Speaker 1: twelve different hallmarks of aging and you're seeing how they 219 00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:28,836 Speaker 1: change over the course of the year and comparing those 220 00:14:28,956 --> 00:14:33,276 Speaker 1: changes for people in the drug arm of these trials, 221 00:14:33,276 --> 00:14:35,916 Speaker 1: in the treatment arm versus the people in the placebo arm. 222 00:14:36,556 --> 00:14:40,196 Speaker 2: So for each individual before and after treatment, we're going 223 00:14:40,196 --> 00:14:43,876 Speaker 2: to have tons of data and we're going with AI 224 00:14:44,116 --> 00:14:48,956 Speaker 2: to reduce it to what is common for all those drugs, 225 00:14:49,916 --> 00:14:54,476 Speaker 2: what has commonly changed with treatment between all those drugs, 226 00:14:54,716 --> 00:14:56,876 Speaker 2: and this is likely to get to give us the 227 00:14:56,916 --> 00:15:01,236 Speaker 2: best clock to use in a clinical practice. 228 00:15:02,956 --> 00:15:06,076 Speaker 1: And so basically, you want to find something that is 229 00:15:06,116 --> 00:15:10,356 Speaker 1: easy to measure or relatively easy to measure from a 230 00:15:10,356 --> 00:15:12,756 Speaker 1: blood test, say so that you can look in a 231 00:15:12,756 --> 00:15:17,476 Speaker 1: blood test and ideally find someone's biological age so to speak. 232 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:22,876 Speaker 2: Correct Again, we can do the biological age quite good now, 233 00:15:23,436 --> 00:15:27,556 Speaker 2: but what is change what has change when you actually 234 00:15:27,556 --> 00:15:32,036 Speaker 2: give a treatment that targets the age, that's the major point. 235 00:15:32,076 --> 00:15:37,036 Speaker 1: But you're assuming that bigs into that assumption is that 236 00:15:37,076 --> 00:15:40,196 Speaker 1: all these drugs in fact slow aging. That like, that 237 00:15:40,276 --> 00:15:43,356 Speaker 1: is a conclusion that has to be true for this 238 00:15:43,436 --> 00:15:44,876 Speaker 1: study to make sense. Is that right? 239 00:15:45,236 --> 00:15:48,796 Speaker 2: Well, it's the other way around. Those drugs did four 240 00:15:48,876 --> 00:15:52,036 Speaker 2: things right, each one of them. You put them in cells, 241 00:15:52,476 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 2: They make the cells younger. You give them to animal, 242 00:15:55,676 --> 00:15:59,236 Speaker 2: they live healthier and longer. You gave them already to people. 243 00:15:59,316 --> 00:16:03,836 Speaker 2: Those are our studies that had outcomes, and you show 244 00:16:03,956 --> 00:16:05,996 Speaker 2: that you give it for one thing and you prevented 245 00:16:06,076 --> 00:16:09,716 Speaker 2: other things, and that it changed overall mortality. 246 00:16:10,396 --> 00:16:13,436 Speaker 1: That last part is that unambiguous. Like I wish I 247 00:16:13,476 --> 00:16:14,316 Speaker 1: knew the data better. 248 00:16:14,396 --> 00:16:18,916 Speaker 2: Oh, like the studies, I mean, it's absolutely amazing. Let 249 00:16:18,916 --> 00:16:21,476 Speaker 2: me give you a flavor for the drug that you 250 00:16:21,516 --> 00:16:25,516 Speaker 2: didn't hear about as Gilty two inhibitors. S. GILTY two 251 00:16:25,556 --> 00:16:29,196 Speaker 2: inhibitors were developed for diabetes, and in the diabetes trial 252 00:16:29,676 --> 00:16:33,276 Speaker 2: it became apparent that they prevent cardiovas to disease and 253 00:16:33,396 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 2: kidney disease. Yeah, but then nephrologies came and did a 254 00:16:37,716 --> 00:16:40,676 Speaker 2: study and just to give you a taste, they took 255 00:16:40,756 --> 00:16:44,756 Speaker 2: four thousand people, half of them are placible and in 256 00:16:44,876 --> 00:16:48,676 Speaker 2: forty two non diabetic just people with impaired kidney function, 257 00:16:49,436 --> 00:16:53,436 Speaker 2: and in thirty two months they showed that they prevented 258 00:16:53,476 --> 00:16:57,876 Speaker 2: forty percent of deteriorating of kidney function, forty percent decrease 259 00:16:57,916 --> 00:17:01,316 Speaker 2: in cardiovas to disease, and forty percent decrease in overall mortality. 260 00:17:01,636 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 2: So it's circular. But what other explanation do you have 261 00:17:05,676 --> 00:17:08,556 Speaker 2: for a drug that actually changed the hallworks of agyp. 262 00:17:12,556 --> 00:17:26,076 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. Shall we talk 263 00:17:26,076 --> 00:17:27,756 Speaker 1: about your genetics work? 264 00:17:28,396 --> 00:17:28,716 Speaker 2: Sure? 265 00:17:30,876 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 1: What have you learned from studying the genes of people 266 00:17:33,316 --> 00:17:34,356 Speaker 1: who live to one hundred? 267 00:17:35,436 --> 00:17:37,876 Speaker 2: So first of all, I want to tell you that 268 00:17:38,036 --> 00:17:42,076 Speaker 2: my fear when I did the study was what if 269 00:17:42,116 --> 00:17:47,476 Speaker 2: I find that all those hundred years old have gotten 270 00:17:47,596 --> 00:17:51,436 Speaker 2: disease like everyone after the age of sixty, they got 271 00:17:51,436 --> 00:17:56,036 Speaker 2: disease and just lived longer with diseases. And what we 272 00:17:56,236 --> 00:18:03,236 Speaker 2: found is that they live twenty thirty years healthier. So 273 00:18:03,276 --> 00:18:06,316 Speaker 2: it's not only they lived longer, they live healthier, and 274 00:18:06,356 --> 00:18:09,236 Speaker 2: that wasn't really the big thing. The big thing is 275 00:18:09,276 --> 00:18:11,796 Speaker 2: that they had what we call a contraction of morbidity. 276 00:18:12,156 --> 00:18:14,156 Speaker 2: They will sick very little time at the end of 277 00:18:14,196 --> 00:18:18,836 Speaker 2: their lives. The CDC may rest in peace or be 278 00:18:18,996 --> 00:18:24,476 Speaker 2: resurrected whatever. The CDC have shown since nineteen ninety three 279 00:18:25,076 --> 00:18:27,556 Speaker 2: that people who die over the age of one hundred 280 00:18:28,076 --> 00:18:31,716 Speaker 2: have third of the medical cost in the last two 281 00:18:31,756 --> 00:18:35,316 Speaker 2: years of their own Interesting, then people who die at seven. 282 00:18:35,076 --> 00:18:37,396 Speaker 1: So they die, they live a long time, and then 283 00:18:37,436 --> 00:18:40,596 Speaker 1: they die fast. That's the dream exactly. 284 00:18:40,636 --> 00:18:42,076 Speaker 2: So that's what we want. 285 00:18:42,076 --> 00:18:45,156 Speaker 1: Right, that's good news for people with the genes that 286 00:18:45,236 --> 00:18:49,636 Speaker 1: cause you to live a long time. Regarding your genetic studies, 287 00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:54,436 Speaker 1: I mean, is there any I don't know people in 288 00:18:54,476 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 1: my family don't live to one hundred, Like, am I screwed? 289 00:18:57,596 --> 00:18:59,396 Speaker 1: Does that matter for me that study? 290 00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:03,116 Speaker 2: No, the opposite. You're the one who's going to benefit. 291 00:19:03,276 --> 00:19:05,996 Speaker 2: We don't have anything for those hundred years old, Okay, 292 00:19:06,436 --> 00:19:10,716 Speaker 2: because that's it. So two of those genes have already 293 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:14,036 Speaker 2: been developed to drugs that past phase three trial. 294 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:17,596 Speaker 1: That that past phase three meaning the FDA is they're 295 00:19:17,676 --> 00:19:20,476 Speaker 1: up for approval at the FDA, right, Yeah, tell me 296 00:19:20,516 --> 00:19:21,596 Speaker 1: about those drugs. 297 00:19:21,836 --> 00:19:26,956 Speaker 2: So one drug is called the CDP INHIBITORQUE. It's a 298 00:19:27,076 --> 00:19:32,276 Speaker 2: drug that basically increase your good cholesterol and decrease your 299 00:19:32,316 --> 00:19:35,756 Speaker 2: trigue glycerides. But that's only part of what it's doing. 300 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:39,316 Speaker 1: And so when they're doing a phase three trial of 301 00:19:39,316 --> 00:19:41,996 Speaker 1: this drug, what is the end point? What are they 302 00:19:41,996 --> 00:19:43,756 Speaker 1: actually trying to show that it does? 303 00:19:43,876 --> 00:19:47,636 Speaker 2: So they're not doing it for aging. They came to 304 00:19:47,756 --> 00:19:53,556 Speaker 2: me because my studies showed that probably inhibiting CDP safe 305 00:19:53,596 --> 00:19:56,196 Speaker 2: because they are one hundred years old. Fourteen percent of 306 00:19:56,196 --> 00:19:59,276 Speaker 2: one hundred years old have these genes that increase their. 307 00:19:59,316 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 1: As opposed to how many people in the population. 308 00:20:01,636 --> 00:20:03,836 Speaker 2: At large three to four percent. 309 00:20:03,876 --> 00:20:06,636 Speaker 1: Okay, so it's like four times as common or something. Right, 310 00:20:07,556 --> 00:20:11,116 Speaker 1: Is that drug being developed as a cardiovascular drug? Like, 311 00:20:11,116 --> 00:20:12,276 Speaker 1: what are they testing it for? 312 00:20:12,996 --> 00:20:16,836 Speaker 2: It's been developed as a cardiovas or drug, but there's 313 00:20:16,996 --> 00:20:21,716 Speaker 2: evidence that it's also prevent cognitive decline, which was our 314 00:20:21,796 --> 00:20:23,956 Speaker 2: major claim around these drug. 315 00:20:24,076 --> 00:20:26,116 Speaker 1: Are they testing it for that? That's a hard indication 316 00:20:26,236 --> 00:20:26,556 Speaker 1: to get. 317 00:20:26,716 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they tested and their data. 318 00:20:29,476 --> 00:20:33,356 Speaker 1: So you've talked about these promising drugs, most of which 319 00:20:33,396 --> 00:20:37,396 Speaker 1: are approved by the FDA for something met Foreman's approved 320 00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 1: for diabetes, GLP one drugs are approved for weight loss. 321 00:20:41,316 --> 00:20:43,796 Speaker 1: I know that you've talked in the past about getting 322 00:20:43,956 --> 00:20:47,956 Speaker 1: a broader FDA approval. Specifically, you were trying to get 323 00:20:47,996 --> 00:20:51,436 Speaker 1: funding for this study called the tame trial where you 324 00:20:51,556 --> 00:20:54,676 Speaker 1: randomize people to get met foreman or placebo, and then 325 00:20:54,836 --> 00:20:57,196 Speaker 1: the idea was you would follow them for several years 326 00:20:57,236 --> 00:20:59,996 Speaker 1: and see if the people getting met foreman had a 327 00:21:00,036 --> 00:21:03,796 Speaker 1: lower rate of things like cardiovascular disease and cancer and 328 00:21:03,916 --> 00:21:06,996 Speaker 1: overall mortality, just do they die less. So is the 329 00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 1: idea that if you do that study and you have 330 00:21:10,596 --> 00:21:14,756 Speaker 1: a positive outcome, like, what would the FDA say, what 331 00:21:14,756 --> 00:21:17,396 Speaker 1: would the indication be? Would it be give metform into 332 00:21:17,436 --> 00:21:19,516 Speaker 1: everybody over a certain age or what? 333 00:21:22,916 --> 00:21:26,836 Speaker 2: No? No, the answer is no, because the study population 334 00:21:27,116 --> 00:21:30,516 Speaker 2: are people over the age of sixty five that are 335 00:21:30,676 --> 00:21:35,756 Speaker 2: already not doing not doing well. Not that people will 336 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 2: become centenarians. 337 00:21:37,036 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: Okay, uh, because you need I mean for the study 338 00:21:39,836 --> 00:21:42,516 Speaker 1: to work, you need some people to get sick. Frankly, 339 00:21:42,596 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: if everybody on both sides stays healthy, you don't learn 340 00:21:45,196 --> 00:21:46,156 Speaker 1: anything exactly. 341 00:21:46,516 --> 00:21:49,876 Speaker 2: And it doesn't make sense to take forty years old 342 00:21:49,916 --> 00:21:53,276 Speaker 2: and do the study and finish it in forty years 343 00:21:53,356 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 2: to ever result. It's but the FDA is working with 344 00:21:57,676 --> 00:22:03,836 Speaker 2: us on trying to get other indications that don't take 345 00:22:03,996 --> 00:22:05,036 Speaker 2: so long to. 346 00:22:06,076 --> 00:22:08,196 Speaker 1: How long, how long and how big would that study 347 00:22:08,316 --> 00:22:10,436 Speaker 1: need to be to be properly powered. 348 00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:14,236 Speaker 2: We had three thousand people for four years. 349 00:22:14,276 --> 00:22:15,116 Speaker 1: That was the design. 350 00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:15,916 Speaker 2: Yeah. 351 00:22:15,956 --> 00:22:17,516 Speaker 1: And it's just hard to fund because this is a 352 00:22:17,556 --> 00:22:20,476 Speaker 1: generic drug. It's cheap, which is good if you want 353 00:22:20,516 --> 00:22:22,756 Speaker 1: to take it, but it's bad because there's no drug 354 00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:24,596 Speaker 1: company that can make a billion dollar selling it, so 355 00:22:24,636 --> 00:22:25,796 Speaker 1: they're not going to pay for the trial. 356 00:22:26,196 --> 00:22:29,196 Speaker 2: Right, And we had funding, and then there was COVID 357 00:22:29,236 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 2: and then we lost, you know, the funding. 358 00:22:34,236 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 1: Tell me about supplements. 359 00:22:37,396 --> 00:22:39,916 Speaker 2: I'll start with a good thing. Supplements are good for 360 00:22:39,956 --> 00:22:40,676 Speaker 2: the economy. 361 00:22:41,276 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, because people spend a lot of money on them. Yes, 362 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:44,836 Speaker 1: you know. 363 00:22:44,916 --> 00:22:49,196 Speaker 2: For me, supplement means that you measured something and it's 364 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:52,756 Speaker 2: slow and you give it back, right, But that's not 365 00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:56,516 Speaker 2: how supplements are done. Supplements are pecking together one hundred 366 00:22:56,596 --> 00:22:59,916 Speaker 2: things or several things and giving you an also in 367 00:22:59,956 --> 00:23:04,276 Speaker 2: the bottle they say take two. Okay. There's no clinical 368 00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:08,436 Speaker 2: data on supplements. Okay. The FDA approves supplement not based 369 00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:14,676 Speaker 2: on clinical data. So what marketing of supplement is a 370 00:23:14,756 --> 00:23:19,236 Speaker 2: total hope? Okay, there's no promise. Not only that, the 371 00:23:19,276 --> 00:23:24,636 Speaker 2: most dangerous things is multi supplement that you take them together. Okay, 372 00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:29,196 Speaker 2: and you think they're additive, but they're antagonistic many times, 373 00:23:29,236 --> 00:23:33,236 Speaker 2: because if they're biologically important, you're going to find interactions 374 00:23:33,236 --> 00:23:36,276 Speaker 2: that you don't like. We actually know that people who 375 00:23:36,276 --> 00:23:40,716 Speaker 2: take multi supplements have increased mortality in spite of the 376 00:23:40,796 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 2: fact that they are the people who also exercise and 377 00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:44,316 Speaker 2: diet very often. 378 00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:47,276 Speaker 1: When you say multi supplement, like a multi vitamin or 379 00:23:47,276 --> 00:23:47,716 Speaker 1: what do you. 380 00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:52,316 Speaker 2: Mean like multi vitamins, let me ask. 381 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:57,516 Speaker 1: You another question. So the field that you are in 382 00:23:59,196 --> 00:24:01,436 Speaker 1: is full of and has always for all of history 383 00:24:01,476 --> 00:24:05,316 Speaker 1: been full of cranks and charlatan's. You're a doctor at 384 00:24:05,356 --> 00:24:08,836 Speaker 1: a medical school, Like, how do you deal with that? 385 00:24:09,116 --> 00:24:10,916 Speaker 1: And do your colleagues think you are a crank and 386 00:24:10,956 --> 00:24:11,556 Speaker 1: a charlatan? 387 00:24:11,596 --> 00:24:15,276 Speaker 2: Respectfully, what you said was exactly the sentiment when I 388 00:24:15,356 --> 00:24:20,196 Speaker 2: got several major organizations to meet in New York and say, hey, 389 00:24:20,316 --> 00:24:22,596 Speaker 2: we have a lot of progress, and we have a 390 00:24:22,636 --> 00:24:23,316 Speaker 2: lot of noise. 391 00:24:23,436 --> 00:24:24,716 Speaker 1: When was this? When was this? 392 00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:27,756 Speaker 2: That was two years ago? Two years ago, and we 393 00:24:27,836 --> 00:24:31,196 Speaker 2: did something that's so unusual for a bunch of scientists. 394 00:24:31,316 --> 00:24:35,236 Speaker 2: We said, you know what, we really don't know what 395 00:24:35,356 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 2: to do. Why don't we take a branding company and 396 00:24:39,676 --> 00:24:42,796 Speaker 2: let them deal with it? And this is the best 397 00:24:42,796 --> 00:24:45,516 Speaker 2: thing we did because the branding company actually worked. It 398 00:24:45,956 --> 00:24:48,836 Speaker 2: was hundreds of thousands of dollars and we're still working 399 00:24:48,876 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 2: with them. 400 00:24:49,836 --> 00:24:52,676 Speaker 1: It makes me nervous when you say branding company. I'm 401 00:24:52,716 --> 00:24:54,996 Speaker 1: asking you about cracks, Charlotte. Since you start telling me 402 00:24:55,036 --> 00:24:56,796 Speaker 1: about branding, it makes me nervous. 403 00:24:56,796 --> 00:24:59,476 Speaker 2: But I think I'll make you I'll make you feel better. 404 00:25:00,876 --> 00:25:05,236 Speaker 2: And they said, first of all, you're using thirty different 405 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:13,036 Speaker 2: terms to describe yourself. Yeah, okay, help spend, launch, avity, rejuvenation, gerontology, immortality, 406 00:25:13,436 --> 00:25:16,916 Speaker 2: you know, goes on and on, and that's very divisive. 407 00:25:17,276 --> 00:25:21,796 Speaker 2: So they said, hey, this is a problem. Second, they said, yeah, 408 00:25:21,876 --> 00:25:26,116 Speaker 2: you have an enemy and that's the noise. Okay, and 409 00:25:26,156 --> 00:25:29,476 Speaker 2: that's a good thing. Okay, that's a good thing because 410 00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:33,756 Speaker 2: you want to distinct yourself from the noise. The noise 411 00:25:33,796 --> 00:25:39,276 Speaker 2: are Charlotte Tan's snake oil, Brian Johnson, you know, things 412 00:25:39,356 --> 00:25:42,836 Speaker 2: like that. And they said, and for you, the best 413 00:25:42,956 --> 00:25:47,756 Speaker 2: name is gero science. And we said, oh, we like geroscience. 414 00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:50,516 Speaker 2: We always called ourselves gero scientists. But you know what, 415 00:25:51,236 --> 00:25:53,796 Speaker 2: gero scientists didn't pick up them. They said, yeah, because 416 00:25:53,836 --> 00:25:58,516 Speaker 2: you never marketed it. It's not even in a Wikipedia. 417 00:25:58,636 --> 00:26:03,076 Speaker 2: So we so with this branding company, we do several things. 418 00:26:03,116 --> 00:26:05,036 Speaker 2: First of all, like what we do now I talk 419 00:26:05,116 --> 00:26:08,956 Speaker 2: about geroscience. We changed the Academy that was the Academy 420 00:26:08,996 --> 00:26:12,356 Speaker 2: of Health and Lifespan Research to Academy of Geroscience, my 421 00:26:12,516 --> 00:26:14,916 Speaker 2: center that was the Insuite for Aging Research and the 422 00:26:14,916 --> 00:26:19,276 Speaker 2: Institute of Geroscience. We have a geoscience web now that 423 00:26:19,436 --> 00:26:22,076 Speaker 2: will feed all the organizations and all the people who 424 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:25,236 Speaker 2: want to know everything. And we want to make it, 425 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:28,996 Speaker 2: you know, like a real thing and not a divisive 426 00:26:29,076 --> 00:26:33,716 Speaker 2: thing or really distinct ourselves from from the noise. 427 00:26:33,836 --> 00:26:36,156 Speaker 1: And in a sentence, what is geroscience? 428 00:26:38,196 --> 00:26:41,756 Speaker 2: So the ideal of geroscience is that we target We 429 00:26:41,876 --> 00:26:48,636 Speaker 2: can target aging by by learning the science and improve 430 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:54,076 Speaker 2: basically decrease the burden of diseases and increase increase the 431 00:26:54,156 --> 00:26:58,396 Speaker 2: health spen for everyone. 432 00:26:59,756 --> 00:27:01,796 Speaker 1: Is there a Wikipedia page? 433 00:27:02,356 --> 00:27:02,836 Speaker 2: Not yet? 434 00:27:02,876 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 1: No, no, you can make a Wikipedia page. 435 00:27:04,956 --> 00:27:09,396 Speaker 2: No no, no, no no, no, there will be soon. 436 00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 2: But it's actually a process you can make. You can 437 00:27:12,476 --> 00:27:15,516 Speaker 2: make the Wikipedia page. But when it comes to things 438 00:27:15,556 --> 00:27:18,556 Speaker 2: like that, there's a committee and the committee now is 439 00:27:18,636 --> 00:27:22,956 Speaker 2: biased and we're spending actually twenty thousand dollars to show 440 00:27:22,996 --> 00:27:25,876 Speaker 2: the gero science is a real. 441 00:27:25,676 --> 00:27:30,116 Speaker 1: Say, convinced the Wikipedia committee. Yeah, wow, Like, do you 442 00:27:30,196 --> 00:27:33,036 Speaker 1: need a newspaper reporter to use the word in the 443 00:27:33,196 --> 00:27:35,036 Speaker 1: in the you know, in the Wall Street Journal, in 444 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:36,996 Speaker 1: the New York Times? That is that what you need. 445 00:27:37,116 --> 00:27:40,916 Speaker 2: But it was effective because when I called ourselves gero science, 446 00:27:41,756 --> 00:27:44,836 Speaker 2: when I talked about it, several editors have changed the 447 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:47,876 Speaker 2: name of the article to anti aging because they said, 448 00:27:47,996 --> 00:27:50,356 Speaker 2: we don't know what's gero science, but anti aging. 449 00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:52,756 Speaker 1: What do you think about the phrase anti aging? 450 00:27:53,436 --> 00:27:56,476 Speaker 2: So first of all, we're not anti the aging, but 451 00:27:57,716 --> 00:28:02,876 Speaker 2: it is used much more commonly for non scientific fact 452 00:28:03,236 --> 00:28:09,116 Speaker 2: than for science. And so we actually we we actually 453 00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:11,876 Speaker 2: trying to make it worse, really for people to know 454 00:28:11,956 --> 00:28:15,476 Speaker 2: that whoever called themselves anti aging and there's no gero 455 00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:18,516 Speaker 2: signs behind that. Yeah, it's going to be bad. 456 00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:36,916 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. Okay, 457 00:28:36,996 --> 00:28:42,796 Speaker 1: let's finish with a lightning round a little bit more random. 458 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:46,756 Speaker 1: What one thing you do, even though it may shorten 459 00:28:46,796 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 1: your life. 460 00:28:49,476 --> 00:28:56,716 Speaker 2: So I'm doing the sixteen hour fast, but I'm a foodie. Okay, 461 00:28:56,956 --> 00:29:00,556 Speaker 2: so after the sixteen hours fast, I really don't care 462 00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:02,556 Speaker 2: what I got interesting? 463 00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:06,876 Speaker 1: What was the last really unhealthy but delicious thing that 464 00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:07,276 Speaker 1: you ate? 465 00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:15,276 Speaker 2: Black forest cake? I have a black forest cake, also 466 00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:16,076 Speaker 2: with ice cream. 467 00:29:16,316 --> 00:29:20,876 Speaker 1: Yes, ice cream is so good. Do you have a 468 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:24,956 Speaker 1: favorite really really old person, like from the Old Testament 469 00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:26,356 Speaker 1: or from mythology. 470 00:29:29,716 --> 00:29:36,676 Speaker 2: I'm talking about Metusilla because he supposedly leave nine hundred 471 00:29:36,716 --> 00:29:41,756 Speaker 2: and sixty nine years And the people who are very 472 00:29:41,876 --> 00:29:46,996 Speaker 2: orthodox in religions, whether Christians or Jews, believe every word 473 00:29:47,036 --> 00:29:49,836 Speaker 2: in the Bible, right, But when you ask them, did 474 00:29:49,916 --> 00:29:52,716 Speaker 2: Metusla leave nine hundred and sixty nine years? Ah, they 475 00:29:52,716 --> 00:29:53,756 Speaker 2: didn't know how to count. 476 00:29:55,196 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know that particular story. I mean one 477 00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:00,636 Speaker 1: thing that's interesting to me, Like in the Old Testament, 478 00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:03,516 Speaker 1: people are just old. Noah's hundreds of years old, whatever. 479 00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:06,836 Speaker 1: But you know, the myths and the stories that focus 480 00:30:06,996 --> 00:30:12,676 Speaker 1: in particular on in more mentality especially, it's often bad, right, 481 00:30:12,756 --> 00:30:16,516 Speaker 1: somebody lives forever and it's terrible to live forever, which 482 00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:19,916 Speaker 1: is interesting in the context of this conversation. 483 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:25,476 Speaker 2: Right, And you know, there's a whole people who are immortalists, 484 00:30:25,556 --> 00:30:29,236 Speaker 2: and that's very different from me. Okay, I'm not immortalist. 485 00:30:29,316 --> 00:30:33,556 Speaker 2: In fact, I'm saying what to live a billion more years? 486 00:30:33,556 --> 00:30:38,476 Speaker 2: How many you know, presidents do you have to suffer through? Yeah, 487 00:30:38,516 --> 00:30:43,996 Speaker 2: I'm tired a little bit. Immortality. Immortality is a belief, 488 00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:48,876 Speaker 2: and people realize now that this is not going to 489 00:30:48,876 --> 00:30:51,796 Speaker 2: happen in their lifetime, and what they are turning into 490 00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:52,676 Speaker 2: is freezing. 491 00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:57,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's been around for a while. Cryogenics like cryogenous 492 00:30:57,396 --> 00:31:00,276 Speaker 1: that one seems very crankish to me. 493 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:04,516 Speaker 2: Well, but it relieves them in their mind they're dealing 494 00:31:04,556 --> 00:31:05,876 Speaker 2: with their immortality. 495 00:31:06,356 --> 00:31:08,716 Speaker 1: So I read this interview with you where you talked 496 00:31:08,716 --> 00:31:13,836 Speaker 1: about the fact that people with Alzheimer's disease sometimes will 497 00:31:13,876 --> 00:31:16,716 Speaker 1: respond to music that they know from earlier in their life, 498 00:31:16,796 --> 00:31:21,396 Speaker 1: and that you actually started making an Alzheimer's playlist for yourself. 499 00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:23,076 Speaker 1: What's on the playlist? 500 00:31:23,516 --> 00:31:28,156 Speaker 2: So usually the playlist for those people are of their 501 00:31:28,236 --> 00:31:33,396 Speaker 2: most earlier memories as young adults, right when you were 502 00:31:33,516 --> 00:31:36,556 Speaker 2: kind of a kid, when you were in high school, 503 00:31:36,756 --> 00:31:39,956 Speaker 2: when you were in college. And so for me, it's 504 00:31:40,036 --> 00:31:41,716 Speaker 2: really the sixties seventies. 505 00:31:41,916 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 1: It's a great era. It's my favorite era. 506 00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:47,156 Speaker 2: In a lot of ways that are taking and my 507 00:31:47,276 --> 00:31:50,876 Speaker 2: kids are saying, you know, when you have Alzheimer's, mom 508 00:31:50,916 --> 00:31:54,836 Speaker 2: would leave you, not because she doesn't like you, but 509 00:31:54,956 --> 00:31:56,556 Speaker 2: because she wouldn't stand the music. 510 00:31:58,436 --> 00:32:01,676 Speaker 1: So, from your work with people who've lived past one hundred, 511 00:32:01,756 --> 00:32:05,116 Speaker 1: I'm curious, what's one thing that you've learned that's not 512 00:32:05,676 --> 00:32:07,116 Speaker 1: related to health. 513 00:32:08,316 --> 00:32:15,036 Speaker 2: Will they have a belief in what makes them leave 514 00:32:15,116 --> 00:32:18,236 Speaker 2: two hundred? And they could adopt the belief because they 515 00:32:18,236 --> 00:32:21,636 Speaker 2: actually had genes, which means they were protected from everyone. 516 00:32:21,716 --> 00:32:23,956 Speaker 1: What actually made them lift two hundred is their genes, 517 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:27,316 Speaker 1: not the fact that they play golf every Wednesday or whatever. 518 00:32:27,716 --> 00:32:31,516 Speaker 2: So I have a woman who died at the age 519 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:34,276 Speaker 2: one hundred and ten, and she smoked for ninety five years, 520 00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:38,476 Speaker 2: and she thinks it's because of cigarettes. She said, the 521 00:32:38,516 --> 00:32:41,116 Speaker 2: four doctors that told her to stop smoking, they died. 522 00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:46,196 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Okay. Of all the things we've talked about, 523 00:32:46,196 --> 00:32:49,716 Speaker 1: If there's only one thing I do to live a longer, 524 00:32:49,716 --> 00:32:51,196 Speaker 1: healthier life, what should I do? 525 00:32:52,036 --> 00:32:55,196 Speaker 2: You know? I think at the end it's all individualized. 526 00:32:55,236 --> 00:32:58,356 Speaker 2: Will be able to see what is the one thing 527 00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:01,196 Speaker 2: you do. Look, I'm looking at you. It looks to 528 00:33:01,196 --> 00:33:04,396 Speaker 2: me like that your BMI is normal. It looks to 529 00:33:04,436 --> 00:33:08,916 Speaker 2: me that you're probably exercising. So I don't know, you 530 00:33:08,956 --> 00:33:12,156 Speaker 2: have to tell me what you don't do, and I'll 531 00:33:12,156 --> 00:33:12,596 Speaker 2: pick one. 532 00:33:12,676 --> 00:33:15,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really because I was hoping you'd say exercise, 533 00:33:15,316 --> 00:33:17,116 Speaker 1: because I was like, oh, yeah, that's the what I got. 534 00:33:18,556 --> 00:33:21,996 Speaker 1: I'm not a great sleeper. I don't know, you know, 535 00:33:22,076 --> 00:33:23,756 Speaker 1: I don't look at my phone. Whatever I do the 536 00:33:23,796 --> 00:33:25,916 Speaker 1: things they say to do, I just don't tend to 537 00:33:25,916 --> 00:33:26,756 Speaker 1: sleep that well. 538 00:33:27,636 --> 00:33:31,156 Speaker 2: So with sleep, there there are two things. One is 539 00:33:31,156 --> 00:33:33,196 Speaker 2: for the young people and one is for the old. 540 00:33:33,836 --> 00:33:37,796 Speaker 2: For the young people, stop bingch watching. Okay, a lot 541 00:33:37,836 --> 00:33:43,396 Speaker 2: of the sleep deprivation is self inflicted. Right, you need 542 00:33:43,476 --> 00:33:47,476 Speaker 2: eight hours. You should strive for eight hours sleep, and 543 00:33:47,556 --> 00:33:49,876 Speaker 2: so that means that you have to plan which are 544 00:33:49,876 --> 00:33:53,916 Speaker 2: the eight hours for the older one or older one 545 00:33:53,956 --> 00:33:58,076 Speaker 2: than young. So for you and me, it's eight hours 546 00:33:58,116 --> 00:34:04,076 Speaker 2: in a dark room without electronic Okay, you're not going 547 00:34:04,116 --> 00:34:08,276 Speaker 2: to sleep the eight hours I sleep for some reason, 548 00:34:08,316 --> 00:34:10,396 Speaker 2: no matter what happen. I travel around the world. I'm 549 00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:13,156 Speaker 2: just like, I sleep six hours and forty minutes no 550 00:34:13,236 --> 00:34:18,756 Speaker 2: matter what. But if I sleep less, it's not going 551 00:34:18,756 --> 00:34:21,716 Speaker 2: to be good. But what I'm doing that's different than you. 552 00:34:21,796 --> 00:34:24,796 Speaker 2: I have a feet, bit, you can have a ring, 553 00:34:25,316 --> 00:34:28,876 Speaker 2: and you can actually measure because it's possible that you'll 554 00:34:28,876 --> 00:34:32,156 Speaker 2: find that your ram sleep and deep sleep are long 555 00:34:32,316 --> 00:34:35,636 Speaker 2: enough and you don't need the sleep, and you're not 556 00:34:35,716 --> 00:34:37,756 Speaker 2: going to feel tired, even if you feel that you 557 00:34:37,796 --> 00:34:38,556 Speaker 2: didn't sleep well. 558 00:34:39,156 --> 00:34:43,196 Speaker 1: So you're saying it's important to be in bed in 559 00:34:43,236 --> 00:34:45,676 Speaker 1: the dark for eight hours, but it's okay to not 560 00:34:45,716 --> 00:34:48,876 Speaker 1: sleep the whole time. Right, So do you lie in 561 00:34:48,956 --> 00:34:52,196 Speaker 1: bed for an hour and twenty minutes every night not sleeping? 562 00:34:53,676 --> 00:34:58,076 Speaker 2: That's pretty much what happens. I'm spending time trying to 563 00:34:58,116 --> 00:35:00,236 Speaker 2: fall asleep and trying to stay asleep. 564 00:35:00,316 --> 00:35:05,076 Speaker 1: Yes, anything else we should talk about, just. 565 00:35:05,076 --> 00:35:08,836 Speaker 2: The one thing that's important to know that aging, that 566 00:35:08,876 --> 00:35:11,276 Speaker 2: what what we're doing is not only for older adults. 567 00:35:11,716 --> 00:35:15,596 Speaker 2: People who survive cancer are aging rapidly because we give 568 00:35:15,596 --> 00:35:19,276 Speaker 2: them chemotherapy and radiation. Right. I don't know if you 569 00:35:19,316 --> 00:35:22,476 Speaker 2: know cancer survivors, but they usually are doing badly after 570 00:35:22,516 --> 00:35:28,036 Speaker 2: they recover, so they need help. People with HIV have 571 00:35:28,196 --> 00:35:32,716 Speaker 2: diseases ten years younger than their ages. Down syndrome is 572 00:35:32,716 --> 00:35:37,556 Speaker 2: an aging syndrome. Disabled people, you know, need help. And 573 00:35:37,636 --> 00:35:40,956 Speaker 2: if we're going to Mars, if this is for some people, 574 00:35:40,996 --> 00:35:44,156 Speaker 2: it's very important. I think this world is beautiful we 575 00:35:44,196 --> 00:35:46,516 Speaker 2: need to repair it. But if you go to Mars, 576 00:35:46,556 --> 00:35:50,476 Speaker 2: you're not going to get there before we stopped aging, 577 00:35:50,636 --> 00:35:53,196 Speaker 2: because you'll be sick on the way there and you're 578 00:35:53,236 --> 00:35:54,156 Speaker 2: never coming back. 579 00:35:55,356 --> 00:35:57,796 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it. 580 00:35:58,476 --> 00:35:59,356 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. 581 00:36:06,796 --> 00:36:09,316 Speaker 1: Your Barselai is a physician and he runs it's the 582 00:36:09,436 --> 00:36:13,396 Speaker 1: Institute for Geroscience at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine. 583 00:36:14,236 --> 00:36:15,756 Speaker 1: Just a quick note, we're going to be taking the 584 00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:17,556 Speaker 1: next couple weeks off. We're going to be back after 585 00:36:17,596 --> 00:36:20,636 Speaker 1: that with more episodes of What's Your Problem. Please email 586 00:36:20,756 --> 00:36:23,836 Speaker 1: us at problem at pushkin dot fm. Tell us what 587 00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:25,636 Speaker 1: kinds of shows we should do more of or less 588 00:36:25,676 --> 00:36:27,556 Speaker 1: of our particular people you think would be good on 589 00:36:27,596 --> 00:36:29,796 Speaker 1: the show. You can also find me on x and 590 00:36:29,876 --> 00:36:33,476 Speaker 1: on LinkedIn. Our show is produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang 591 00:36:33,716 --> 00:36:36,876 Speaker 1: and Trina Menino. Our editor is Lydia Jane Kott, and 592 00:36:36,956 --> 00:36:39,876 Speaker 1: our engineer is Sarah Buguer. I'm Jacob Goldstein.