Speaker 1: M h. Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcast featuring
Speaker 1: conversations with industry leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm
Speaker 1: Cynthia Littleton, business editor for Variety Today. My guest in
Speaker 1: New York is Deborah Lee, former chairman and CEO of
Speaker 1: b ET Networks. Deborah had a front row seat to
Speaker 1: the explosive growth of cable television during her thirty two
Speaker 1: years at b ET. After years in the trenches making
Speaker 1: her mark as a leader and as one of only
Speaker 1: a few African American female CEOs in media, She's had
Speaker 1: some time to reflect on the changing content marketplace since
Speaker 1: her retirement in two thousand eighteen. In recent months, Lee
Speaker 1: has joined the board of A T and T and
Speaker 1: become CEO of Leading Women to Fined, an invitation only
Speaker 1: conference series for women of color. In this wide ranging conversation,
Speaker 1: Lee speaks candidly about how cable missed the threat posed
Speaker 1: by streaming and the iportants of grooming and retaining executives
Speaker 1: from diverse backgrounds. Deboraly, former chairman and CEO of b
Speaker 1: ET Networks, who is now CEO of Leading Women Defined
Speaker 1: a conference series, Thank you so much for stopping by
Speaker 1: today to talk to us. Great, thank you, I'm excited
Speaker 1: to be here. Here is Debor. You have more than
Speaker 1: thirty years of experience in the trenches at the ET networks,
Speaker 1: really growing up with the cable business, which just you know,
Speaker 1: just invaluable experience undoubtedly for these chaotic and disrupted times
Speaker 1: in media now. And you left b ET about a
Speaker 1: year ago, a little over a year ago. In that
Speaker 1: time since you've now had you have a little arms
Speaker 1: length on the business. What stands out to you as
Speaker 1: you think about where this industry is going? What? What
Speaker 1: do you think? What do you see as the biggest
Speaker 1: challenges that the leaders of companies that you like come,
Speaker 1: like the Channel group that you used to run, What
Speaker 1: are the biggest challenges that they have to sort of
Speaker 1: sort out? Right now? There's a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of things in the air. But I would be curious
Speaker 1: to your perspective as a former CEO media CEO, what
Speaker 1: is the what are the biggest hills to climb and
Speaker 1: say the next three or five years. That's a very
Speaker 1: good question. Um, you know, what comes to mind immediately
Speaker 1: are two major challenges. Um. The first I would say
Speaker 1: is competition. There's just so much content out there. And
Speaker 1: I remember the early days of the cable industry where
Speaker 1: you know, cable systems that had twelve channels or twenty
Speaker 1: four channels, thought that that was a lot, and then
Speaker 1: we went to you know, a hundred channels and two
Speaker 1: under channels. Now we have you know, not only infinite
Speaker 1: cable channels, but also streaming services and um, all kinds
Speaker 1: of different platforms that take up a lot of time
Speaker 1: time for our viewers and consumers. UM. So I think
Speaker 1: the biggest challenges how do you break through all of that?
Speaker 1: How do you keep your audience? You know? Is it
Speaker 1: about a brand? Is about building a brand? Which you know,
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time uh thinking about it,
Speaker 1: b et because we had a very loyal audience, um
Speaker 1: and so you know, we were able to keep that
Speaker 1: audience because of our brand. UM. But you know, is
Speaker 1: it just popular shows? You know, when when a network
Speaker 1: starts selling to Netflix, they lose the brand of the
Speaker 1: network and then it's just all about shows. Their shows
Speaker 1: can be found elsewhere, which makes it by definition, not
Speaker 1: exclusive to the network that originally. Yeah, so that opens
Speaker 1: up more opportunities for sales of content, but it also
Speaker 1: you know, leaves the consumers a little confused about what
Speaker 1: who produced this show or what am I tied to
Speaker 1: this show because of a brand or because I just
Speaker 1: like the show? Um So the amount of competition keeps
Speaker 1: increasing and um So that's that's really a major challenge.
Speaker 1: Whether you're in cable, whether you're a Netflix, whether you're
Speaker 1: you know, doing podcast or or any type of platform,
Speaker 1: it's really how do you get the attention of the consumer?
Speaker 1: Um And I would say the second biggest challenge that
Speaker 1: you know, people don't talk about a lot, but was
Speaker 1: really a challenge for me when I was at BT
Speaker 1: is the measurement of the audience and how that translates
Speaker 1: into ratings. Uh. You know, we're still in a system where, uh,
Speaker 1: in cable, we have advertising spots and we sell those
Speaker 1: two advertisers based on a guarantee of an audience. Um
Speaker 1: And if you don't hit that guarantee, you have to
Speaker 1: give advertisers money back. So if I put on a
Speaker 1: show on Tuesday, let's say Being Mary Jane, which was
Speaker 1: one of our popular shows, and you know, my viewer says, well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna wait till Saturday to watch it, because that's
Speaker 1: when I have more time uh, and I'm not working.
Speaker 1: Um we wouldn't get credit for that show because you
Speaker 1: have to be within a three day window to get
Speaker 1: credit for the maximum advertising. Correct. Correct. And a lot
Speaker 1: of consumers don't understand that, don't care about that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's all about convenience for them now and that means
Speaker 1: you know, watching it when you want to waiting, you
Speaker 1: can wait for you know, five episodes to pile up
Speaker 1: and then binge watch it. Um. So the rating system
Speaker 1: has not kept up with the platforms and with the
Speaker 1: way consumers watch television basically. Um So that's very frustrating
Speaker 1: because you can have a very popular show that you
Speaker 1: know everyone loves, and you know you can't meet your
Speaker 1: guarantee to advertisers. Um So, you know, it's it's been
Speaker 1: amazing to me that the measurement systems and companies haven't
Speaker 1: solved that problem. Um because it's a major issue, right
Speaker 1: And and when you were at b T you're part
Speaker 1: of a huge media conglomerate, Viacom, with you know, dozens
Speaker 1: of channels and a lot of cloud both with advertisers
Speaker 1: and sort of within the industry. And I know, over
Speaker 1: the years, people of Viacom and elsewhere have really tried
Speaker 1: to kind of go at the both the multi platform
Speaker 1: measurement challenge, capturing all the viewing and also having that
Speaker 1: larger discussion with advertisers. I remember the the you know,
Speaker 1: the process that led just to even extending the ratings
Speaker 1: viewing period to three days. That was you know, months
Speaker 1: of negotiations and lots of arm wrestling and lots of
Speaker 1: horse trading. Um. What what didn't you find was sort
Speaker 1: of the fundamental obstacle to coming to a better system
Speaker 1: that would allow allow networks to capture more viewing? Was
Speaker 1: it just the entrenched constituencies? Was it technological? Well, Uh,
Speaker 1: it was a little of both. Um, it was the
Speaker 1: constituencies because advertisers didn't really have a reason to make
Speaker 1: the system work better because they're getting shows at less
Speaker 1: of a cost when you think about it, um, and
Speaker 1: until someone comes up with a system that competes well
Speaker 1: with Nielsen, which is the you know, dominant um Um
Speaker 1: system right now. Um, you know, there was in any
Speaker 1: way to to resolve the issue. UM. So it's just
Speaker 1: a perplexing system. And you mentioned a good point which
Speaker 1: I didn't mention when I was describing It's not it's
Speaker 1: not only the three day and seven day issue when
Speaker 1: you watch it, it's also what platform you watch it on.
Speaker 1: So if you watch my show on your phone or
Speaker 1: your iPad or your computer instead of on the cable network,
Speaker 1: we might not get credit for that. So that was
Speaker 1: a big part of it too. And that has just
Speaker 1: grown and grown. Streaming viewing has grown and grown. That's
Speaker 1: increasing amount of money on the table right and and
Speaker 1: the younger generation is watching TV actual TV less and less.
Speaker 1: I remember both of my kids or millennials, and when
Speaker 1: they were in college, they didn't have TV s. It's like,
Speaker 1: how can you not have TV? Your mom's and the
Speaker 1: TV and they're like, well, we just watch it on
Speaker 1: our computer or a laptop. And they knew as much
Speaker 1: about content, they probably watched more content than I do,
Speaker 1: but they were just watching it at another through another means.
Speaker 1: So that was a problem too. So, you know, I've
Speaker 1: been out of the industry for about a year. I
Speaker 1: don't know what's happened in that time, but I'm just
Speaker 1: still amazed that that that problem hasn't been resolved. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's definitely a big one. Um. Let me ask
Speaker 1: you in the in your new chapter of your life.
Speaker 1: Have you become have you have you had more time
Speaker 1: to become a consumer of content? Have you spent more
Speaker 1: time in the content world, or have you been traveling
Speaker 1: the world. I've been clearing your mind. I've traveled a
Speaker 1: little bit. I'm not a big traveler for long periods
Speaker 1: of time. I like to come home and check in.
Speaker 1: But I am more of a consumer now. And I
Speaker 1: watched channels that I wouldn't watch before because they were
Speaker 1: too competitive to be et So now I can watch
Speaker 1: programming targeted to our audience, African American audience, and I
Speaker 1: can enjoy it as opposed to say, oh, I wish
Speaker 1: Power was on b ET, Why is it on Star?
Speaker 1: And you know there's always that very competitive part of
Speaker 1: of running a network. Uh and and you know when
Speaker 1: UM black programming became popular, which it is right now,
Speaker 1: UM you know, it was coming at us from all
Speaker 1: different UM areas. And you know UM VH one had
Speaker 1: Monday nights where they put on their black programming, Bravo
Speaker 1: had Wednesday night. You know someone else had Thursday night.
Speaker 1: Our big night was Tuesday. So you just felt like
Speaker 1: you were, you know, in a boxing match all the time,
Speaker 1: trying to be out others in the ratings game. UM
Speaker 1: so that made it hard for me to enjoy programming.
Speaker 1: But now I can watch it and enjoy it. Um.
Speaker 1: I can talk about it with my kids. Uh, they
Speaker 1: tell me what their favorite shows are. Uh. And I
Speaker 1: love binge watching. I really do. Ye now that I
Speaker 1: have a tome, not time, and now that I don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about ratings. And you know, binge watching
Speaker 1: was something I just hate it before, but now I'm yeah,
Speaker 1: but now I'm like, oh, yeah, this really works. You know,
Speaker 1: I can watch um, five episodes of Succession if I
Speaker 1: want to, or The Affair or whatever. So yeah, I've
Speaker 1: all it has been a big TV watcher, but now
Speaker 1: I'm even more so of one. Is there anything about
Speaker 1: now that you're a consumer more of a you know,
Speaker 1: not in the industry? Is there anything about the way
Speaker 1: shows are presented? You know that the binge option. Is
Speaker 1: there anything that that you that you access now and
Speaker 1: you think, oh, gosh, we should have done that five
Speaker 1: years ago, ten years ago at b B b et.
Speaker 1: Have you had that experience at all? UM? I think
Speaker 1: the Netflix model is pretty interesting that they drop all
Speaker 1: the episodes at one time. UM. I don't know that
Speaker 1: we could have really done that at BT because of
Speaker 1: you know, we were still um um joined at the
Speaker 1: hip with the rating system. But I mean, I think
Speaker 1: consumers are used to that now. Um So when you
Speaker 1: like a basic cab or even pay cable now, when
Speaker 1: they have to wait a week to see a show,
Speaker 1: I think that really bothers the consumers more than it
Speaker 1: did five five years ago. Um. We've all become for
Speaker 1: the on demand era. So if you like episode one,
Speaker 1: you want to watch episode two right away, you know,
Speaker 1: the thought that you have to wait a week. So
Speaker 1: in a way I wish that BT had been part
Speaker 1: of that business model, that we could have done that,
Speaker 1: because I think when you know, when you catch a
Speaker 1: consumers attention, you want to keep it and you don't
Speaker 1: want to risk them going to watch something else. Um,
Speaker 1: so I can't think of anything else. Um. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: wish we were more in pay cable because so we
Speaker 1: could use um more interesting language. But if that would
Speaker 1: be attier, because that seems to have gotten more and
Speaker 1: more popular. I remember once I bought The Wire because
Speaker 1: I had heard that it was so highly you know,
Speaker 1: it was so um loved by the critics, and it
Speaker 1: was like the best in our Urgan documentary every I
Speaker 1: mean series ever made. So I remember buying it for
Speaker 1: BT and putting it on, but because we were basic Cable,
Speaker 1: I had to blank out all the curse words, which
Speaker 1: were considerable in that Yes, us were the F were
Speaker 1: the B word uh. And I remember talking to the
Speaker 1: head an in Double A c P because I run
Speaker 1: it him to know. He's a friend of mine, Bruce Gordon.
Speaker 1: I called him and said, you know, we're putting on
Speaker 1: the wire. We may get some feedback from our criticism
Speaker 1: from our audience, but I want you to know we
Speaker 1: have an eight hundred number that sounds really outdated, and
Speaker 1: we have an eight hundred number, and if if there's
Speaker 1: a real problem with it, um, you know, I'll take
Speaker 1: it down. And he said, well, why would you be
Speaker 1: different from HBO, and I said, well, because we're basic
Speaker 1: cable and they're paid cable. Anyway, we put it on.
Speaker 1: We just we got no feedback, but no one watched it.
Speaker 1: So we had the worst outcome, um, is that we
Speaker 1: had paid all this money for a show. Right. I
Speaker 1: almost wish they hated it and at least would talk
Speaker 1: about it, but it just died on our channel. Because
Speaker 1: you know, it took all the um culture or you know,
Speaker 1: um realism of the show out of it. Uh. And
Speaker 1: that's that's one of the problems you face in basic cable.
Speaker 1: And and it's not to say I'm a proponent for
Speaker 1: a really foul language, but you know, sometimes it's part
Speaker 1: of a story. Um. One time, I'll tell you a
Speaker 1: funny story. During Being Mary Jane, we had a prohibition
Speaker 1: on BT about using the word bitch, and so Being
Speaker 1: Mary Jane was you know, more edgy, and so they
Speaker 1: would come and say, can we use bitch in this scenario?
Speaker 1: And they described the scenario to me. Well, one time
Speaker 1: they came and they said, be uh, Mary Jane in
Speaker 1: a car accident and she was coming back to work
Speaker 1: and she had some injuries on her face, but she
Speaker 1: was walking down the hall, you know, very proud and
Speaker 1: she was going to tackle being back at work after
Speaker 1: this accident. Anyway, they were playing a song in the
Speaker 1: background and they called to tell me that the song
Speaker 1: had thirty eight bitches in it, okay, And I was like,
Speaker 1: you're kidding me, right, thirty eight bitches And they said, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really important to storyline, and you know, and the
Speaker 1: creator and the writer were really so I eventually said
Speaker 1: it was okay. It was a hip hop song, and um,
Speaker 1: it was important to the plot. But you know, it's
Speaker 1: really a big step for us as a basic cable
Speaker 1: network to do that. And and um, in reality, the
Speaker 1: African American audience is um can be very conservative at times,
Speaker 1: so you never know when they're going to really criticize
Speaker 1: you or hold something against you. But I, you know,
Speaker 1: I often think that maybe the title of my booky
Speaker 1: eight Pitches, it would certainly in a turning point in
Speaker 1: my career. It would, so it would certainly be compelling.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's a that's a really interesting and of
Speaker 1: course nowadays you wouldn't even if you wanted to, you
Speaker 1: couldn't buy a show from HBO because it's all being
Speaker 1: funneled into it's all being funneled into HBO and the
Speaker 1: streaming service that Warner Media. And that's a that's an
Speaker 1: important point because a lot of shows we did buy
Speaker 1: were from We're either broken series or a series that
Speaker 1: you know, the networks weren't going to ever use themselves.
Speaker 1: So um that that option has gone out the door, right,
Speaker 1: And speaking of Warner Media, you have recently joined the
Speaker 1: board of A T and T. Yes, I have just
Speaker 1: a matter of weeks ago, so I realized that that
Speaker 1: you're the new kid. You're the new kid in the boardroom.
Speaker 1: But any you know, and and as fate would happen
Speaker 1: the companies and the headlines this week, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: saw that the Elliott management and as self described activist investor,
Speaker 1: has some thoughts about how A. T and T should
Speaker 1: be operating and what, you know, what what stock price
Speaker 1: they can reach in the future. I realized it's touchy
Speaker 1: for you to talk about anything directly like that, but
Speaker 1: in the broad strokes, can you tell me certainly what
Speaker 1: motivated you to join the board and what you see
Speaker 1: as and A T and T s opportunities that they
Speaker 1: have with their you know, with their kind of unique
Speaker 1: mix right now of content, a massive wireless telephone service
Speaker 1: and also direct TV. Yeah, um, you're right. I can't
Speaker 1: comment on anything that's going on at the company as
Speaker 1: a board member. But I was attracted um to joining
Speaker 1: the board of A T and T because of the
Speaker 1: wide array of of UH platform and businesses they do
Speaker 1: own UH and I was especially excited it that they
Speaker 1: that Warner Media was a part of the company, and
Speaker 1: I you know, admired Warner Media for years, and the
Speaker 1: HBO has an amazing brand, and the Turner Networks and
Speaker 1: seeing an I mean I could go on and on
Speaker 1: you know, brands pretty well, very well compated with them
Speaker 1: for many years, um and watch them grow and so UM.
Speaker 1: When I was contacted about my interests in a T
Speaker 1: and T, that was the major reason I was really interested.
Speaker 1: And then you know, it's also great to learn more
Speaker 1: about the technology side and five G and all the
Speaker 1: other things coming down the pike. So um. You know,
Speaker 1: as I was planning my next phase of life, which
Speaker 1: has has been very interesting, I realized that I wanted
Speaker 1: to keep my hand in content and that this would
Speaker 1: be a good way to do it, you know, not
Speaker 1: in an operating role, but in a on a board
Speaker 1: where you know, my advice could could be useful. Um.
Speaker 1: So I was. I'm very excited about that. Have you
Speaker 1: had much interaction with Randall Stevenson and John Stanky? Uh?
Speaker 1: Not yet. I haven't even been to my first board
Speaker 1: meeting yet, so you are so, But I'm not Sandel,
Speaker 1: you know, through their industry for a few years. Um.
Speaker 1: I haven't met John yet, but but I'm excited about
Speaker 1: getting involved and having been a CEO, and I know
Speaker 1: you have lived you know in vatcom, you lived through,
Speaker 1: you know, several good sized mergers. When you look at
Speaker 1: the challenge that the the the challenge and the opportunity
Speaker 1: that A T and T has and still you know,
Speaker 1: they're they're still in the integration process of A T
Speaker 1: and T and Warner Media. As a CEO, do you
Speaker 1: look at that and think, oh my god, that's a
Speaker 1: lot of work, or or are you kind of invigorated
Speaker 1: and think, wow, I can really I might be able
Speaker 1: to help them as they guide through as they you know,
Speaker 1: as they guide through the process of any any type
Speaker 1: of merger is difficult, you know, on any level, but
Speaker 1: at the scale of the big and this is that
Speaker 1: they're operating is pretty immense. Yeah, I'm I'm invigorated, you
Speaker 1: know because, as you said, I've had thirty two years
Speaker 1: of experience at b ET, I've been on other boards
Speaker 1: for a long time, for over twenty years. I've seen
Speaker 1: on the board of Putter for a for a long time. Yes, uh,
Speaker 1: And I'm on the board of Marriott. I've been on
Speaker 1: that board for about eighteen years. I went through their
Speaker 1: Marriott Starwood merger. Uh So I've seen mergers and acquisitions,
Speaker 1: and I know it's an exciting time for the company.
Speaker 1: It can be a scary time for employees and executives
Speaker 1: because you never know, um, what the company is gonna
Speaker 1: look like after the merger. But I thought, especially um,
Speaker 1: because this is new to a T and T, I'm
Speaker 1: very excited about being able to give good advice and
Speaker 1: be helpful from a board perspective. Well, you should be
Speaker 1: in for some lively discussions when you get together. Well,
Speaker 1: we will stay tuned on that. Let me ask you
Speaker 1: a little bit going back to the year early days
Speaker 1: at b ET, you joined in and in the legal
Speaker 1: department you pretty much established the legal department were for
Speaker 1: many years. Um, I was the first in the House council.
Speaker 1: When you think about those days, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people have looked back at the early the growth
Speaker 1: of cable and looking at how streaming is transforming the
Speaker 1: marketplace now and kind of looking for parallels and how
Speaker 1: cable changed things. Um, how can you remember those early
Speaker 1: years when you were just growing by leaps and bounds
Speaker 1: the cable, the cable subscription, the whole subscription footprint of
Speaker 1: cable was growing by leaps and bounds in the eighties.
Speaker 1: Can you remember those years, like what what we're really Um?
Speaker 1: What really fueled b E t s growth at that time?
Speaker 1: And how when you kind of got the sense that
Speaker 1: you were really you were really getting in there and
Speaker 1: making enough of an impact to be petitives with the
Speaker 1: with the entrenched Old Guard, which were the broadcast network. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: I UM, as you said, I joined b ET nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty six, the company was about six years old. UM.
Speaker 1: It started in nineteen eighty and UM, you know around
Speaker 1: the time I joined, UM it was becoming much larger
Speaker 1: at a faster pace because cable was just getting into
Speaker 1: urban areas. UM. You may recall when cable first started,
Speaker 1: it was it was a rule. It was the people
Speaker 1: that lived so far out they couldn't get a local station. Correct.
Speaker 1: So it was a rural solution. UM. And it took
Speaker 1: a long time for it to get to uh bigger
Speaker 1: cities because they're so hard, they're so hard to wire. UM.
Speaker 1: But when I joined b ET in nineteen eighty six,
Speaker 1: before I left the law firm where UM I to
Speaker 1: know b ET and Bob Johnson, I actually worked on
Speaker 1: the DC cable franchise, UH for Bob Johnson and UM.
Speaker 1: I guess TC I was his partner at the time,
Speaker 1: but anyway, and they were a part owner of BT.
Speaker 1: I think we were the first UM cable programming investment
Speaker 1: that t C I did. B Yeah, so we were
Speaker 1: early on. But anyway, long story short, there was no
Speaker 1: cable in d C when I left the law firm
Speaker 1: to go work at BT, So all the partners were like,
Speaker 1: you're going where and you know, cable is not going
Speaker 1: to really last. They're all kind of theories about m
Speaker 1: m ds or other kind of technology. And I learned
Speaker 1: a couple of things from those early days. One never
Speaker 1: underestimate new technology. And I think the broadcast networks did
Speaker 1: underestimate cable. They just didn't really see it as a
Speaker 1: real competitor. And one of the reasons is that at
Speaker 1: the time, cable was mainly a retransmission mechanism. You know,
Speaker 1: no one was doing original programming. You know, we were
Speaker 1: buying things from the broadcast networks. We were showing music videos,
Speaker 1: you know, especially B E, T and MTV. UH. There
Speaker 1: was local news, but there wasn't anything very creative. So
Speaker 1: I think the broadcast networks. Just didn't think we were
Speaker 1: ever gonna really grow or scale UM, but it happened
Speaker 1: over time UM and I think UM. The first indication
Speaker 1: at BT was that we were going to become competitive
Speaker 1: was when we went public in and UM. So that
Speaker 1: was five years after I started and UM. We were
Speaker 1: able to raise a lot of capital by going public.
Speaker 1: So the question after the public offering was what were
Speaker 1: we going to use the proceeds for UM and we
Speaker 1: were the first African American company to go pub book
Speaker 1: on the New York Stock Exchange, so there was a
Speaker 1: lot of excitement about that, a lot of milestones for
Speaker 1: founder Robert for sure. The stock price on the first
Speaker 1: day went from seventeen dollars to twenty nine dollars. So
Speaker 1: not only were we a successful Black company, were a
Speaker 1: successful American company. You know, this was the promise of capitalism.
Speaker 1: You know, you grow a business and then you take public.
Speaker 1: You don't necessarily have to grow a business anymore. For
Speaker 1: some reason, it's going to say that trajectory, it seems
Speaker 1: so so pleasantly old fashioned. We we had to prove
Speaker 1: that we had a certain number of years with positive
Speaker 1: revenue UM. But anyway, that's all change. But I think
Speaker 1: that's when you know, we started feeling okay, we we're
Speaker 1: here to stay right. Wall Street has taken you seriously right,
Speaker 1: And UM, I think around that time, or maybe a
Speaker 1: few years earlier, we went from being a free service
Speaker 1: to a charging three cent and then I remember at
Speaker 1: one point we went to ten cent, which was charging
Speaker 1: the cable operating correct, not the not the consumers, but
Speaker 1: the cable operators and uh. And then we eventually got
Speaker 1: to ten cent and that was a big step. And
Speaker 1: that's a lot of guaranteed revenue when you're doing you know,
Speaker 1: five year deals or ten year deals. And at that time,
Speaker 1: half our revenue came from advertising and half came from
Speaker 1: cable affiliates. So after we um, you know, we're able
Speaker 1: to get the long term cable deals. UM, we became
Speaker 1: more comfortable. And you know, advertising comes and goes. But
Speaker 1: you know, if you get some of the bigger brands
Speaker 1: who understand the African American marketplace, UM, that helps you
Speaker 1: get others. But you know, tying up the cable operators
Speaker 1: and being the only service targeted to African Americans really
Speaker 1: put us in in a good place for a number
Speaker 1: of years. I think about those times, and I think
Speaker 1: about how much, you know, cultural attitudes have changed, just in,
Speaker 1: just in, even in my adult lifetime. Let me ask you,
Speaker 1: was it a difficult conversation at times to get people
Speaker 1: to to get cable operators to value and African American
Speaker 1: centric services. Yes, for sure it was some of it
Speaker 1: as cable Again, as cable went into the major cities
Speaker 1: that had larger black population, it was an easier conversation,
Speaker 1: but still a lot of cable operators didn't really see
Speaker 1: the need for a channel like b et um or.
Speaker 1: They would say, you know, I don't have I have
Speaker 1: less than teen percent of black viewerships, so why would
Speaker 1: I need you um. So there were a lot of
Speaker 1: hard conversations, a lot of marketing, a lot of dealing
Speaker 1: with local politicians to get them to support us UM.
Speaker 1: The fact that t c I was an investor helped
Speaker 1: a little bit, and John Long was a very big supporter.
Speaker 1: Helps to have cable's Darth Vader on your side, and
Speaker 1: sometimes it helped most of the time to help, but
Speaker 1: sometimes it hurt because other cable systems, bigger cable systems,
Speaker 1: were like, well, we know you gave t c I
Speaker 1: a sweetheart, right so you have to prove you didn't. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I you know, the most favorite nations clauses were just,
Speaker 1: as a lawyer, the worst thing to me that ever existed.
Speaker 1: And those are really challenging in this in this environment,
Speaker 1: right the digital m v p ds. Yes, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's every It still makes my skin crawls to hear
Speaker 1: the term most favorite nation because you know, basically what
Speaker 1: it says is, Okay, I'm gonna do a deal with you,
Speaker 1: but if anyone else comes by and does a better deal,
Speaker 1: I want the advantage of the deal they negotiated. So
Speaker 1: you know, it takes away your need to be a
Speaker 1: good negotiator because you can just sit back and wait
Speaker 1: for whoever to come along. But anyway, that's you know,
Speaker 1: that's a whole another story. Um but um so, there
Speaker 1: was a period I think from maybe eight um we
Speaker 1: went public in to maybe nine five where there's just
Speaker 1: immense growth because New York was coming online and d
Speaker 1: C and Chicago and uh, those those cities helped us
Speaker 1: grow quite a bit. Um So, do you see parallels
Speaker 1: to the way you know, Netflix has just kind of
Speaker 1: stormed into the marketplace. Do you see parallels to kind
Speaker 1: of what's the disruption that's going on now right, I
Speaker 1: see a lot of parallels. Uh. The number one is that, um,
Speaker 1: cable programmers were so anxious to sell to Netflix in
Speaker 1: the early days. You know, it was almost like found money.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, we have these shows on the library shows.
Speaker 1: You know, Netflix needs programming and they're in a big check.
Speaker 1: And so what the cable programming industry did was feed
Speaker 1: and broadcast for a long time, and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, Netflix starts doing their original programs and starts
Speaker 1: being a viable competitor. UM. So I think it's kind
Speaker 1: of exactly what happened with cable and broadcast is that
Speaker 1: the cable industry didn't take Netflix seriously. They really didn't,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they're a behemoth and um,
Speaker 1: you know, they don't have advertising, seems like no one's
Speaker 1: holding them to a positive revenue flow, doesn't seem to matter,
Speaker 1: and they're just creating more and more programming. So so, UM,
Speaker 1: I think that was a hard lesson for cable program
Speaker 1: mind site is definitely more closer than being in the trenches. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm never you know, through your career, especially in your
Speaker 1: last year's at BT. I mean you were one of
Speaker 1: you know, it's sad to say, but you're one of
Speaker 1: maybe count them on two hands, the number of female
Speaker 1: CEOs and prominent media positions. What in your experience and
Speaker 1: in your role now as CEO of leading women to
Speaker 1: find what what are the some of the best things
Speaker 1: that companies can do, companies of size can do to
Speaker 1: help groom a new generation of leaders to make sure
Speaker 1: that there's enough women, enough people of color, enough people
Speaker 1: of all diverse backgrounds to bring the diversity that that
Speaker 1: you know, people almost universally say is so important, especially
Speaker 1: to a business that is in the business of of
Speaker 1: drawing public audiences and and you know, reaching mass markets,
Speaker 1: even even if it's in narrower slices. Everybody wants everybody
Speaker 1: wants to have. What so in you know, in in
Speaker 1: this environment right now is have there been have you
Speaker 1: had experiences a B E T or things or seen
Speaker 1: companies that did really smart, proactive things that helped groom
Speaker 1: that generation of leaders. Yeah, that's intra sin question. I think, um,
Speaker 1: the thing we have to focus on now, and it's
Speaker 1: the term that's very popular as diversity and inclusion, But
Speaker 1: I think the part we should be you always have
Speaker 1: to focus on diversity, and you always have to make
Speaker 1: sure people get through the door. That's really important. So
Speaker 1: we can't take our off that. But I think the
Speaker 1: inclusion part is even more important these days because you
Speaker 1: want people to stay. You want people to feel comfortable,
Speaker 1: whether it's people of color or women. You want them
Speaker 1: to feel comfortable in the environment of the company. You
Speaker 1: want them to feel like they can UM be promoted
Speaker 1: UM and that they have a long term career there
Speaker 1: and then maybe one day they can be in the
Speaker 1: c suite UM. And I think that's the part that
Speaker 1: we haven't focused on enough. Just how do you keep
Speaker 1: UM a diverse executive team at the company? And you
Speaker 1: mentioned and about the number of women. I think that's
Speaker 1: what we still is an important issue because you know,
Speaker 1: there was a Vanity Fair article UM several years ago
Speaker 1: about the number of women that that would lead cable
Speaker 1: networks and I think maybe there were six or seven
Speaker 1: of us. It was pretty impressive. Within a year, half
Speaker 1: of that number we're gone for one reason or another UM.
Speaker 1: So even if you have a critical mass, it can
Speaker 1: disappear really fast. The executive musical chairs endless, you know,
Speaker 1: consolidation or someone just decides to leave and do something else. UM.
Speaker 1: So it's important to keep the pipeline going and make
Speaker 1: sure that if you know, if if I leave, or
Speaker 1: Judy McGrath leaves or someone else, that there are people
Speaker 1: behind us to keep it going. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: the past two years have been so interesting with the
Speaker 1: met Too movement and such a time um, and the
Speaker 1: issues that women have in the workplace. Um, And those
Speaker 1: were issues we didn't talk about a lot, but those
Speaker 1: issues and you know, how do you have a family
Speaker 1: and and um do you know, become an executive at
Speaker 1: a company. UM. So there's still a lot of things
Speaker 1: to talk about. And UM, you know, it's the issue
Speaker 1: is never over. You know. I think it Sandra Day
Speaker 1: O'Connor who said in twenty five years we didn't we
Speaker 1: wouldn't need any affirmative action laws. And it sounded crazy
Speaker 1: when she said, it sounds even crazier today. UM. But
Speaker 1: I think companies and and a lot of companies are
Speaker 1: taking diversity and inclusion very seriously, UM, and you know,
Speaker 1: really focusing on, um, how do you make it better
Speaker 1: um for working parents, for people of color, and especially
Speaker 1: the industry we're in because Um, it's so important to
Speaker 1: have different images on the air. I talk a lot
Speaker 1: about about about my life and growing up in the
Speaker 1: Segre date itself and only seeing black people on TV
Speaker 1: for one hour a week and on Soul Train. I
Speaker 1: mean that was it. And if you miss that, it
Speaker 1: was like we didn't even exist. So this industry is
Speaker 1: so important. I think we've made a lot of um
Speaker 1: headway in terms of images and um, you know, I think, uh,
Speaker 1: broadcast network and cable networks and streaming services are all
Speaker 1: realizing what we knew at BT for a long time,
Speaker 1: that we have a very loyal audience and we want
Speaker 1: to see ourselves and uh, we'll show up in numbers
Speaker 1: when it when it's done right. Um. And so it's
Speaker 1: important to have people behind the camera are in the
Speaker 1: executive suites who can make those kind of decisions and
Speaker 1: and are really sensitive to the viewing audience. Absolutely. UM.
Speaker 1: Only what you grew up. You were born and raised
Speaker 1: in South Carolina. I was born in born in South Carolina,
Speaker 1: and then I my dad was in the army, so
Speaker 1: we moved all over the place, moved all over the place,
Speaker 1: and then you went to law school and we're working
Speaker 1: for a very prominent DC firm. Correct, What was it
Speaker 1: that really UM turned the tide for you in terms
Speaker 1: of leaving what I'm sure it was a successful law
Speaker 1: track to working for a startup UH company. Were you
Speaker 1: and were you a TV fan growing up? Did you?
Speaker 1: I was always a TV fan, UM, and I wanted
Speaker 1: I went to law school UM with the idea I
Speaker 1: was going to change the world some kind of way.
Speaker 1: You know. I saw what their good Marshall had done
Speaker 1: in the fifties and sixties, or Constant Baker Motley or
Speaker 1: all these people that I admired, and I thought law
Speaker 1: school was the way to do that. By how I
Speaker 1: got to law school, and especially because I went to Harvard,
Speaker 1: it was not the best choice of law school. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was great for a lot of other reasons, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't the place to talk about changing public policy
Speaker 1: or changing the world. It was very focused on black
Speaker 1: letter law and this is what the courts say. And
Speaker 1: so I was looking for a way out of it,
Speaker 1: and I went to Kennedy School because I thought that
Speaker 1: that would if I went into government, and I'd be
Speaker 1: closer to what I wanted to do. Anyway, long story short,
Speaker 1: at Ronald Reagan one when I moved to Washington, and
Speaker 1: I decided to go to a big law firm to
Speaker 1: hang out till the Democrats came back. But that took
Speaker 1: twelve years. So after about five years, I said, okay,
Speaker 1: I gotta I never really wanted to be a partner
Speaker 1: at a law firm. Um. It was never in my
Speaker 1: career strategy. So I said, you know, I need to
Speaker 1: go do something else. And I have found by that
Speaker 1: time that I really enjoyed communications and media um, because
Speaker 1: that's the kind of work I was doing at the firm.
Speaker 1: And BT was a client, a very small client. They
Speaker 1: didn't have very much money. Uh. And eventually Bob Johnson
Speaker 1: offered me the position to come and start the legal department.
Speaker 1: And by that time I had done some interviewing in
Speaker 1: New York UM with HBO and CBS, records and companies
Speaker 1: that sounded interesting to me. But I didn't really want
Speaker 1: to move to New York at that point. Uh. I
Speaker 1: was a d C girl. My dad was originally from
Speaker 1: d C. So even though I hadn't grown up there,
Speaker 1: it always felt like home. Um. So BET provided the
Speaker 1: perfect answer was an entertainment company. It was in d C.
Speaker 1: It was focused on the audience that I cared about.
Speaker 1: I had grown up with black brands like Motown and
Speaker 1: um Um, Ebony and Essence UM. So it really brought
Speaker 1: a lot of different areas together. And I thought it
Speaker 1: was a way to change the world. Um, not directly
Speaker 1: through policy, but indirectly because you know, we could lobby
Speaker 1: the Hill or the White House, whoever was in the
Speaker 1: White House. We had a voice as one of the
Speaker 1: largest black companies out there, UM, and we were committed
Speaker 1: to it and committed to our audience. So you know,
Speaker 1: it worked out in a lot of ways to include
Speaker 1: things that were of interest to me. It wasn't the
Speaker 1: career I planned. And I tell this story often. My
Speaker 1: father said, why are you leaving this prestigious law firm
Speaker 1: And I said, well, I'm just not having fun anymore.
Speaker 1: And he looked at me and he said, well, it
Speaker 1: was supposed to be fun. They wouldn't call it work.
Speaker 1: And he meant that to the core of his being.
Speaker 1: He was in the army for twenty five years. I
Speaker 1: don't think he could say he had fun on any
Speaker 1: particular day. But I just thought then the era, Uh
Speaker 1: I went to Millennial, but Premillennial that you know, you
Speaker 1: should enjoy the work you do. And um, I was
Speaker 1: willing to leave a firm where I wasn't fully satisfied
Speaker 1: and take a risk. Uh. And in hindsight, it's the
Speaker 1: best risk that I've ever taken. And I'm sure Dad
Speaker 1: was proud. He was. He was by the time he
Speaker 1: lived in Baltimore, by time Baltimore got cable and for
Speaker 1: period of time he developed Alzheimer's early on, so that
Speaker 1: was sad. But he would cut out any article he
Speaker 1: saw about Bete and send it to remember when you
Speaker 1: had to cut out articles and so he's been sending
Speaker 1: so he was very proud. Yeah, I think he would
Speaker 1: say I made the right move. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Debor for coming and sharing your thoughts with us. We
Speaker 1: really look forward to seeing you know what is next
Speaker 1: for you and I'll keep my eye on leading women
Speaker 1: to great. Great. What I hope leading women to fine
Speaker 1: is a way to give women who are moving up
Speaker 1: the ladder in the business world a way to support
Speaker 1: each other. Um, and really focus on support Ardine and
Speaker 1: what needs we have. So I'm excited about it. So
Speaker 1: like a really worthy, worthy project. Well, thank you for
Speaker 1: having me today. Thanks for your time dab thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Be sure to tune in next week for another episode
Speaker 1: of Strictly Business m