WEBVTT - Dr. Jennifer Doudna 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.240 Hi everyone, I'm Emily Chang and this is Bloomberg Studio. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:07.200 One point, Oh, imagine the ability to cure genetic disease 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.880 for generations to come, to inoculate the human race against 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.360 the next COVID nineteen before it becomes a pandemic, or 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.160 in a darker scenario, to choose the color of your 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:21.599 baby's skin. Doctor Jennifer down A pioneered a technology that 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:23.919 may one day be able to do just that, and 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.360 it's one of the biggest scientific breakthroughs of our lifetimes. 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:31.640 It's called Crisper, a bacterial defense system that can edit 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:36.520 genetic material. It already shows promise in eradicating malaria mosquitoes, 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:41.120 appearing to cure patients with sickle cell anemia, improving cancer therapy, 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.360 and diagnosing COVID nineteen more quickly and at the height 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.640 of the pandemic. Dowd n Up, along with Emmanuel Sharpetier, 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.800 won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for their Crisper innovations, 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.440 But there are major ethical questions looming. How and when 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.800 is it right to edit a gene? Is Crisper playing god? 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:04.959 One Chinese scientist claims he's already edited the genes of 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.360 twin girls, giving them immunity to HIV and sparking an 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:13.319 international uproar. Right or wrong, one thing is clear, Crisper 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.880 will change the human race forever. Joining me on this 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.679 edition of Bloomberg Studio at one point, Oh biochemist and 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:27.759 Crisper co invector, Jennifer dowdne You grew up in Hawaii, 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:29.959 and I am so curious. I grew up in Hawaii 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.200 as well. How did your upbringing shape your curiosity about 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:38.520 the natural world and the origins of life? When I 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.080 think back on that time in my life, it was 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.760 kind of a wonderland. Um, you know, well what it's 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:48.000 like in Hawaii. It's a very special place, and I 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.520 found myself just wondering, you know, how is it that 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:55.200 these plants and animals have evolved to be specialized for 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.120 Hawaii And there are so many examples of that in 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.400 the natural environments in the islands there. So I did 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.800 definitely think that was behind my thinking about, you know, 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.360 why it would be interesting to become a scientist in 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.560 the future. As a budding scientist, you developed an early 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:14.560 fascination with RNA well before it took center stage in 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.200 the pandemic, and also now a key player in vaccines. 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:22.040 What is it about RNA that gripped your attention? When 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:26.639 I was an undergraduating college we were, or at least 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.560 I felt like the the the message we received was 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:35.240 that RNA was kind of the boring intermediary between DNA, 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:40.600 which encodes all genetic information in cells, and proteins that 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:42.600 do the work in the cell, and so those were 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.480 kind of the important big molecules in biology, and then 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.720 there was this kind of boring, uh intermediary called RNA. However, 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.400 when I got to graduate school, I met the the 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.480 person who would become my future advisor, Jack Shostak, and 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.880 he was fascinated by the possibility that r and A 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:07.400 in fact was the original biological molecule on Earth, that 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.120 it was really responsible for the evolution of life as 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.920 we know it here on Earth. And that idea was 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:17.480 so interesting and so compelling to me that I, you know, 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:20.400 I I joined his lab and I started studying R 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:22.720 and A, and I sort of never left it. Now, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.320 you spent most of your career working at universities. You're 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:27.960 joining us now from Berkeley, where there's a lab named 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:31.240 after you, But you briefly ventured into the Corporate Biotech 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.960 World in two thousand nine and worked at Shenentech for 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.160 just two months. Why was that so brief and what 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:41.560 did you learn? It was a really important experience for me, 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.200 I have to say, even though short, because at the 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.800 time I was I had been running my academic research 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:51.320 lab for close to fifteen years and I was starting 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.600 to question, you know, what the impact of my work 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.160 would really be was I was I actually going to 0:03:58.000 --> 0:03:59.960 at the end of my career feel that I had 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.960 contributed to solving real world problems? And so that was 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.200 a big motivation for me to join the team at Genentech, 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.280 a wonderful company where I knew a number of the 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:15.040 scientists and some of the leadership team. However, once I 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.479 got to the company, I quickly realized that I just 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:22.520 I really missed my colleagues at Berkeley. I missed the 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.479 academic environment of you know, being able to just think 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:27.880 crazy ideas and you know, run into people and the 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.400 coffee line and chat about experiments in a way that 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.000 would be very difficult to do in a company, of course, 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.240 because you have to be very focused on UM, you know, 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:43.520 the plans and development UM pipeline of the of the company. Fortunately, 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.880 my colleagues at Berkeley took me back and I refocused 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.760 my efforts at the time on studying crisper, which in 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:53.479 the end was you know, turned out to be a 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.799 very productive line of work. It's been called molecular scissors, 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:02.040 if you will. What is crisper and what can it do? 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:06.800 It turned out that that crisper is in fact a 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:11.839 system in bacteria that detects and cuts virus genetic material, 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.479 whether it's DNA or RNA, and it was by studying 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.919 how that actually works, and we did this in collaboration 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:22.719 with Emmanuel Sharpontier's lab um to study the function of 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:26.520 a protein known as crisper CAST nine. That line of 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:30.000 research led to an understanding of the function of this 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.520 molecule that allowed us to harness it as a tool 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:39.320 for genetic manipulation, namely for altering DNA sequences in any 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.880 cell in a precise fashion, in a programmable fashion. That 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.920 gives scientists now a very powerful way to understand the 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.440 function of genes, but importantly also to change the function 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.320 of genes in a targeted way. When did you realize 0:05:55.320 --> 0:06:01.039 the power and usefulness of this discovery, Well, I would 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.000 say almost right away. I mean, it's a relatively simple 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:09.200 technology that can be easily adapted and adopted to different applications, 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.440 and so very quickly after we published our work in 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.080 the summer of two thousand twelve, labs around the world 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:19.440 began to adapt Crisper for various kinds of geno editing. 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.839 And it's just increased since then. The pace of Crisper 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.920 research the application has been startling. It's been incredible to watch. 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.719 What are the current use cases that inspire you the 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.680 most well. I always think about Victoria Gray, who was 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:37.000 the first patient with sickle cell disease to be treated 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.720 with Crisper here in the US. Her story is so inspiring. 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.360 I mean, you know, she is somebody who is benefiting 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.240 right now from the Crisper technology to be able to 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.880 live a normal life without being impacted by an otherwise 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.680 quite devastating genetic disease. And other patients are in are 0:06:55.720 --> 0:07:00.120 similarly being impacted by the Crisper technology. So I think 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:05.479 that's one area where we will see increasing developments, more 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.480 and more clinical trials that are starting. In fact, at 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.560 the Innovative Generalmics Institute that I started a few years 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.200 ago here in the Bay Area, we have just received 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.840 approval from the Food and Drug Administration for our own 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:23.800 invasion Investigational New Drug or i n d UH trial 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.520 for sickle cell disease. So you know, this is really 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.520 an extraordinary moment I think in terms of thinking about 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.200 cures for genetic disorders. Once Crisper was confirmed as a 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:37.960 gene editing tool, leading researchers raced to start their own companies, 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.160 and it turned into kind of a competitive free for all, 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.640 and the battle for the intellectual property is still going 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:48.240 on to determine who can commercialize this technology. How do 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.640 you reflect on all of that. One thing important to 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:55.440 point out is that despite the ongoing disputes over patents, 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.960 which by the way, isn't unique to Crisper, I would 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.800 I would argue that any any really excited technology is 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.640 going to have multiple claims to it. In the case 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:09.640 of Crisper, because the technology is relatively straightforward to deploy, 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.240 It's meant that the field has moved quickly. As you mentioned, 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.640 there are multiple companies. There are multiple companies that are 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:19.280 now publicly traded and more coming down the pike UM 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.480 as well as all sorts of new companies and UM 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:26.600 and then established firms that are adopting the technology as well. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.120 So from a scientific perspective, I think that's exactly what 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:33.280 should be happening, right. This is such an enabling technology 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.040 you wanted to see it deployed as widely as possible. 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.320 This is my conversation with Jennifer downa biochemist and Crisper 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.559 co inventor. Coming up, we dive deep into the morality 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.800 and ethics of gene editing and Dowton his reaction to 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.680 the world's first so called designer babies, her thoughts on 0:08:55.840 --> 0:09:00.559 using Crisper to edit the genes of human embryos. I'm 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.360 on only Chat and this is Blue Brick Studio. At 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:21.040 one point out at what point in your research and 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.600 discovery of Crisper did you start becoming worried about the 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:30.080 ethical implications. Well, quite early on, because it was clear 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.400 from you know, those very early days that Cristopher was 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:37.280 a broadly enabling technology that you know, it was useful 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.200 and you know, worked in essentially any cell type, and 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.959 that meant that it worked not only in fully developed 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.520 differentiated cells or tissues, but it could also be used 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:49.640 in embryos, and in fact, that was one of the 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.720 very early uses in the research world was to make 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:56.960 you know, modified mice at the you know, at the 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.520 at the embryo level, so those mice then had genetic 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.520 changes introduced by Crisper that could be passed on to 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.880 future generations. And it didn't take too much of a 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.760 stretch to think about the possibility that that could also 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.480 be done in human embryos, which of course, I think 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:18.360 comes along with with just very profound ethical questions. I 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.400 think it was two thousand and fifteen we organized the 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.960 first meeting out here in California on the topic of 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:29.760 human germline editing human embryo editing with Crisper. That developed 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:34.880 into a much broader international effort to understand the technology 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:39.040 and importantly to put in place criteria that scientists globally 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.760 should respect in terms of applications of Crisper, especially in 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.280 the human germ line. Let's talk a little bit more 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.680 about the reasons, if, and when to edit Jeanes is 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.720 a profound and complicated question. How do you even begin 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.120 to that? And to answer that question, I think first 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:59.360 of all, one has to ask, are there situations where, 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.800 at least in principle, manipulating the human germ lines in 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:08.440 the embryo would be the best, uh possible way to 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.320 deal with genetic condition UM. And by the way, I'm 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.000 focused here on, you know, just really strictly things that 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:21.200 relate directly to health, rather than changes that might be 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.400 you know, desirable to somebody for some reason, but actually 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.920 have no benefit to health. And right now we know 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.880 that although yes, it can be used in human embryos 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.520 and there are you know, multiple scientific publications about that, 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.920 we also know that it's difficult to control it and 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.720 to make sure that editing is happening exactly as the 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:49.000 scientists or experiment or might might be desiring. And so 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.680 that to me is already a red flag that you know, 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.520 even if there were situations where we said, g that 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:59.720 might be the best way to deal with the disease UM, 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.760 you know, the technology still needs to be further developed 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:07.199 before that would be I think even a possible strategy. 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:11.040 Every new gene editing technology has its sort of cultural 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:14.880 shocker moment. You had the first test two baby Dolly 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.880 the Sheep, and then of course in the so called 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:24.640 Designer Babies, where twin girls their genes were allegedly edited 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:29.160 by a Chinese scientist Gan Quay. What was your first 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:35.720 thought when you heard that news, Um, well, uh, shocked 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.520 for sure, definitely. Um, you know, I guess it wasn't 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.760 entirely unexpected that someone would try to do this. I 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.480 had no idea that it would happen as soon as 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.120 it did. But um, you know, it had been discussed 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.000 at meetings, of course, and that was in fact the 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:57.520 purpose of these prior uh you know, conferences on the topic. 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.280 So it seemed you know, it certainly seemed possible that 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.640 someone would would do this. I didn't think someone would 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.520 would actually proceed, however, to actually create a pregnancy with 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:12.120 edited embryos um as as was announced in two thousand eighteen, 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.920 and I think it really was a wake up call 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.280 to the international community that we can't sit back and 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.360 just say, well, you know that that's a problem for 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.640 the future. No, no, this is this is something we 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.360 need to deal with right now, and we need to 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.280 take a strong stand. And I think fortunately that's exactly 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:34.880 what happened. Are other scientists trying these things elsewhere, we 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.719 really haven't heard about that kind of manipulation going on 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:43.600 in certainly in any organized way. So I just think 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.840 that at least I hope that the international reaction, which 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:52.560 was really negative to you know, to this announcement has 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.040 has I think, at least for the time being, really 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.240 put a damper on anyone that might be trying to 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.120 do that kind of human manipul elition for you know, fame, 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:06.719 for example. I do feel an ongoing sense that we 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.360 need to be really proactive about this and not not 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.000 you know, not get complacent. And importantly I I include 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:18.760 in in sort of ethical considerations also thinking about widespread 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.920 availability and affordability of the technology, because I think, you know, 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.560 this is something that we have to pay attention to. 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.880 I mean just thinking back to the example of Victoria Gray, 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.520 who I mentioned earlier, who has received a Christopher treatment 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:36.800 for her sickle cell disease. Wonderful you know news about that. However, 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:41.600 her therapy currently costs two million dollars, so you know, 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.040 that's just not going to be affordable to most people 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.520 around the globe that might need this. So we're working 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.360 hard to think about ways that we can mitigate those costs. 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.400 Wanting to eliminate a genetic disease seems like an important cause. 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.120 Do you think the case, the moral case to eliminate 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.360 a genetic disease is stronger than the case not to. 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.680 I think we have to consider it, you know, on 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.080 a case by case basis. I mean, one could argue, 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.040 for example, like let's go back to sickle cell disease 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.960 that you know right now, the therapy is designed to 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.840 be used in individuals, and it doesn't make a germ 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.320 line change, right It's not a change that they would 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.000 pass on to children. It's just a change that affects 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.280 their body. And so in that sense, it's like any 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.840 any other type of therapy or or drug that we 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:32.640 might use to treat disease UM. Whereas you could imagine 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.080 that in a family that has a genetic disease that 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.120 is you know, is sort of you know, spread across 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.920 their family, many people inheriting a gene that you know 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.160 predisposes them to disease, and believe me, I hear from 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:51.280 families like that almost daily. You could imagine that, you know, 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.000 at some point in the future, if the Crisper technology 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.480 were safe and robust, that some families might make the 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.680 decision to UM, you know, to to remove that disease 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.840 causing mutation at the source so that you know, future 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:06.960 generations don't have to worry about it and I think 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.800 that's you know, that that would make a lot of sense. 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:11.800 But again, there's a number of things that have to happen, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.560 I think before that will be possible. Back in the seventies, 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.760 Test two babies were controversial, and now IVF is widely acceptable, 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:22.040 accepted available. Do you think it will be the same 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:27.080 with crisper edited babies over the coming decades. I think sure, 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.520 I think absolutely, You know that because this is what happens, 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.600 isn't it is that you know, people um get comfortable 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.080 with an idea if it's useful, you know, if it 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.240 has proven and and this is you know, this is 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.600 still remains to be seen, like if Christopher proves to 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.520 be useful um and and and you know, kind of 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.560 controllable in human embryos, and that is still in the 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.440 realm of research. But if that were to happen, then 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.640 you know, I think it becomes a possibility that in 0:16:54.760 --> 0:17:00.200 vitro fertilization clinics offer that to their clients, and and 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.720 so then you know who should make that decision? Should 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:06.080 governments be regulating that? Well, that doesn't actually doesn't really 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.639 happen for IVF clinics right now. In fact, you know, 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.119 there's as you probably know, there's you know, different different 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.720 regulations across different states in the US, and of course 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.280 in different countries is different. And so I think, you know, 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.359 the same thing could possibly happen with Christopher, where you know, 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.679 it becomes a something that you know, some clinics offered 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:24.399 and parents will have to decide do I want to 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:34.200 do that or not. If you're listening to my conversation 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.000 with Crisper Cohen mentor and Nobel Prize winner Jennifer down 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.880 Up up next amidst an ongoing pandemic, how the biochemists 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:46.360 made a pivot in advance Crisper as a diagnostic technology 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:51.280 for COVID nineteen and after winning the Nobel Prize, Dowdnup 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:56.320 shares inspirational advice to girls and women studying stem fields everywhere. 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.480 I'm emily changed. This has boom Brick Studio one point out, 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:20.359 stay with us. The ethical controversies around Crisper came screeching 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.280 to a halt when the pandemic hit. What was going 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:28.440 through your mind when the world met COVID nineteen, Well, 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.199 I think, like like like like many people, you know, 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:34.840 it was quite quite a shock. This was something that 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.960 we really had to face head on, and that was actually, 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.000 for me as a scientist, really a motivation for pivoting 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:43.359 the focus of our work at least over the last 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.600 year to creating a clinical testing lab at the Innovative 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:52.879 Genomics Institute and also to advancing crisper as a diagnostic technology. 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:57.120 You've had this fascination with RNA for so long and 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.040 did you ever think that your are in a specialty 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.560 would have a moment like this the key to fighting 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:08.560 a global pandemic. Well, uh no, I never thought that 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:10.760 for sure. And let me just point out, since you 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.520 read up ourn A, I think it's fascinating that, first 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.000 of all, the coronavirus, the stars covie two virus that 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.879 causes COVID nineteen is an RNA virus. So it's a 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.479 piece of RNA that's you know, been causing all this havoc. 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:29.600 And furthermore, many of us have received vaccinations with r 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:33.040 N A right, so I received a vaccination that is 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:37.280 a messenger RNA that carries a message into human cells 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:42.160 telling them make antibodies against this virus protein. And so 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.040 that's been that's been also very interesting, so RNA to 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:48.560 fight RNA, and then with Christopher, we have a third 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.680 type of RNA that potentially could be useful I think 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.880 primarily in this case as a diagnostic tool, a way 0:19:55.880 --> 0:20:00.000 to detect the coronavirus RNA and report on his presence. 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.800 Couldn't Crisper one day also be used to edit our 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:07.600 genes to make us less susceptible to viruses? Well maybe, 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.360 I mean there's definitely speculation about that. You know, would 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.840 it be possible to um you know, I think about 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.800 it sort of like genetic vaccination in the sense that, 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.560 you know, could we educate our selves ahead of time 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:23.200 to be you know, sort of um ready in case 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.199 of virus shows up? And it's you know, it's a 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:26.840 tricky thing, right because you know, you have to kind 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.480 of know what to be ready for and and so 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.000 you know, there would have to be some interplay there. 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.640 But I think already we're seeing opportunities to use Crisper 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.680 to edit immune cells. And then this is being done 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:42.360 in conjunction with cancer immuno therapy for patients, for example. 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.960 So you could imagine taking that a step further and saying, well, 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.720 can we educate our immune cells to be ready for 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.040 a virus? What do you say to the skeptics who 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:57.240 say that Crisper is playing God, Well, I guess my 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.320 my answer there is that, um, you know, there are 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.480 so I mean, I don't even know how one defines 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:07.199 playing god because you know, there's so many things, you know, 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.320 ways that we manipulate our environment. Now. For example, all 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.280 the food we eat is essentially engineered because of you know, 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.640 plant breeding that's been going on for you know, thousands 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.439 of years really, and so when new technologies come along, 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:21.959 they enable new science. When new science is done, they 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:25.919 enable new technologies, etcetera. And in the end, you know, 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:30.879 that's really what drives human advancement, and it drives our 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:36.040 economy in many ways. So I feel that overall this 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:40.000 is all positive. But you know, but you know, scientists 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:44.000 really need to be engaged in, you know, accepting that 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:47.200 responsibility for what they're doing and making sure that they're 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:50.639 involved in the discussions and the you know, decisions that 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.040 have to be made as technology advances. And that's certainly 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:56.440 true for Cristoper. Let's go ahead another hundred years. If 0:21:56.480 --> 0:22:00.200 the next COVID nineteen happens in another century, how will 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.159 things be different? How will we be more prepared? Will 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.840 our genes have already been edited to prevent us from 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:10.119 getting the next big deadly disease. I wonder, I guess. 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:14.080 I I imagine that certainly, within a hundred years we 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.800 will know so much more about our own genomes. And 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.560 you know, the more we learn, honestly, the more complicated 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:24.560 it clearly is um but you know, but so there's there, 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:26.280 There will be plenty to keep all of us busy. 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:29.119 But but look, I think in a hundred years we 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:32.240 will know so much more about our own genetics, including 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:37.360 the genetics of our immune systems and our interactions with virus. 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:39.920 So my hope would certainly be that, you know, if 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:44.200 the next hundred year pandemic comes along, that we will 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.919 be certainly much better prepared to manage it than we 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:50.080 were for this one. So, in the middle of this 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:56.280 global pandemic, in October, news came in that you won 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:59.920 the Nobel Prize for Crisper, which you shared with a man, 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:05.440 All Scharpentier, two women winning the Nobel Prize. Looking back 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:09.720 on those days when you were told girls don't do chemistry, 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:12.280 what do you have to say to inspire the girls 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:16.840 out there who might want to follow in your footsteps? Well, 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.840 it's you know, just such a kind of humbling experience 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:22.760 for me in a way, because I mean, who you know, 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.119 I certainly never, ever, in a million years would have 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.080 imagined that, you know, I would have won the Nobel Prize. 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:31.600 And um, I'm even sort of shocked hearing myself say 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:35.600 it right now. And uh, you know, and I but 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:38.280 here's an interesting thing that's happened, and that is that 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:43.200 I've heard from many, many girls and women since then, 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.679 some of whom I knew from my past life, but 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:49.480 some of many of whom I don't know, who have 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:52.800 reached out from all over the world to um tell 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:55.439 me their stories, to tell me that our work is 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:59.000 inspiring to them. And I really hope that that message 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:03.359 gets through very clearly to students, especially to two women 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:07.280 or other people who feel maybe they have been um 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:11.480 excluded in some ways from or just been underrepresented in 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:14.440 the STEM fields that you know, I certainly didn't come. 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:16.720 I'm not a likely person to have won the Nobel 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:18.240 in a way, you know, because I came from a 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.520 you know, a small town. Nobody in my family was 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.119 a scientist. I just kind of wanted to do science. 0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:26.399 I thought it was cool, and and that's the message 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:29.359 I try to tell those students you can do this well. 0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:32.200 Thank you for paving the way for women and for 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:36.600 all of the girls who will come after UM and congratulations, 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:39.280 Dr Jennifer Downutt, thank you so much for joining us 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:41.239