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Speaker 1: On the bed Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the bec del Cast. Hey, Jamie, Hey, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: I have an idea for a new podcast that I

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Speaker 1: want you to co host with me. Okay, yeah, I know.

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Speaker 1: I'm in great because here's what it's going to be.

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Speaker 1: It will be me describing how I will murder my lovers,

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Speaker 1: and then when my lovers end up dead in like

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Speaker 1: a year or so, this podcast will be my alibi

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Speaker 1: because I'm not going to be so foolish as to

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Speaker 1: kill my lovers in the exact same way I described

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Speaker 1: on this podcast. Okay, yeah, okay, So I mean and

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Speaker 1: and honestly, because you got so close to my face

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Speaker 1: while you were telling me that I believe you, and

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Speaker 1: also I'm in love with you perfect and don't worry,

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Speaker 1: I will not frame you or anything. Oh no, you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't know, because what we have is real as opposed

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Speaker 1: to all the others. I'm not like the other boys. Um,

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Speaker 1: Michael Douglas, Great, Kiss, Kiss what I'm Katherine Zada Jones

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Speaker 1: is I. Honestly, I there was like a world in

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Speaker 1: which I was going to try to go through this

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Speaker 1: whole episode, referring to Michael Douglas as Catherine Zada Jones's

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Speaker 1: husband because that's how I think of him. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name

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Speaker 1: is Caitlin Dronte, and this is our show where we

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Speaker 1: examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Using the Bechtel

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Speaker 1: tests simply is a jumping off point. But you know

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Speaker 1: what the Bechtel test is? I don't, because I do,

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me? Well? It is a media metric

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Speaker 1: created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechtel

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Speaker 1: Wallace Test. A lot of different versions of it. The

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Speaker 1: one we use requires that a piece of media have

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Speaker 1: two characters with names of a marginalized gender talking to

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Speaker 1: each other about something other than a man for two

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Speaker 1: lines of dialogue. And it should be a sort of

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Speaker 1: meaningful interaction. You know it when you see it, and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've we've we've got it. We've got kind

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Speaker 1: of a It's complicated today. Everything is complicated today. It's

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Speaker 1: very it's a very complicated day. Yes, you're on the

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Speaker 1: picktel Cast. Do you remember that Facebook? Did you ever

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Speaker 1: have that? Oh, it's like a relations relationship status. I

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Speaker 1: loved that. That's so inviting conflict um that you have

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Speaker 1: to respect it. I don't have the personality to publicly

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Speaker 1: declare it's complicated, but there were plenty of teenagers who did. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they'd be like, it's complicated with Chris are. They were

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Speaker 1: like doing it in earnest because everyone I saw who

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Speaker 1: put that it was like a joke. Who would be like,

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Speaker 1: it's complicated with my bff t. He joked a joke, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: uh no, No, when you're fourteen, it's serious. It really

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Speaker 1: is complicated because you don't you don't even understand what's

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Speaker 1: happening to your body. So everything, even if it's going

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Speaker 1: great in your in a relationship, it's still complicated. Yeah. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the backcast. We're talking about basic Instinct today.

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Speaker 1: Long time request, and we were simply waiting for the

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Speaker 1: perfect guest to come along, and here she is. Yes,

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Speaker 1: let's get her, let's get her in the mix. She

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Speaker 1: is the host of Your Wrong About podcast and the

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Speaker 1: co host of You Are Good Podcast, it's Sarah Marshall. Hi, welcome.

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Speaker 1: This says what a how are we going to talk

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Speaker 1: about this movie? Like? Because defies? What is it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It is so I've I've read so

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Speaker 1: many takes that my brain started leaking out of my nose.

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Speaker 1: There doesn't seem to be any or I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is true of every movie, but like this one in particular,

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Speaker 1: it's like there's just no right answer. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like everyone's got a different take. We hate it, we

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Speaker 1: love it, we're reclaiming it, we're putting it in the trash.

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Speaker 1: It's good, it's bad. We don't know. It's empowerment for women,

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Speaker 1: it's horrible for women. Yeah, it's it's every take on

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Speaker 1: every end, Fanti cop. We don't know, we don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what we know. It is. It was

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Speaker 1: a three million dollar screenplay. That is one thing that

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Speaker 1: is known. What a thing to know, which is absurd

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Speaker 1: and which is more than Sharon Stone got paid to

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Speaker 1: be in the movie. She only got paid five hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars to be in this movie, right, which is

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Speaker 1: like obviously good money, but not for what she fucking did. Also,

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Speaker 1: this screenplay was written in thirteen days, which makes so

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Speaker 1: much sense and right right, And the budget was million

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Speaker 1: dollars and only thousand of that went to the lead

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Speaker 1: of the movie. That makes me feel very bad. There

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Speaker 1: there's so much I mean, there's also not only is

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Speaker 1: there a ton to talk about about the content, but

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Speaker 1: there's so much to talk about about behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: some of it. I mean, we'll just see where this goes,

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Speaker 1: because there's like some things that aren't necessarily relevant to

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Speaker 1: the topic of this show that I was sort of

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Speaker 1: still like, what the fuck? I just wrote so much

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Speaker 1: stuff down. Every fact I learned was scarier than the last. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think this episode may just be as chaotic as

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Speaker 1: the movie itself. That sounds great. I'm very excited to

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Speaker 1: talk about it, and I feel like this discussion honestly,

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Speaker 1: I I hope it will be clarifying for me because

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Speaker 1: I'm all over the place. I did enjoy watching it.

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Speaker 1: It's highly entertaining or is it. I don't know. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm board, it's over two hours long. Why

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Speaker 1: isn't this half hour shorter? It's taking itself very seriously,

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Speaker 1: which is a flash doesn't have But one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite things about this movie is that we have two

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Speaker 1: women famously and to distinguish them from each other and

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Speaker 1: create some symbolism, one wears beige clothing and the other

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Speaker 1: wears brown clothing. It's I mean, how else were you

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Speaker 1: supposed to tell high status white women apart in the nineties.

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Speaker 1: The only way you could do it except by what

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Speaker 1: color neutrals they put on head to toe that morning.

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Speaker 1: So many loose neutrals in this movie, which have kind

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Speaker 1: of come all the way back around. Much like many

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Speaker 1: elements of this movie. I was just thinking that true murdering,

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Speaker 1: murdering people is so in right now, It's totally in fashion.

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Speaker 1: Look as a as a bisexual murderer, representation matters. It's

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Speaker 1: just nice to see an early version of the media

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Speaker 1: landscape we have today. So I'm so excited to hear

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Speaker 1: your thoughts on this movie, Sarah, Like, what is your

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Speaker 1: history with Basic Instinct. I think I first saw it

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Speaker 1: when I was like fourteen or fifteen, and I just

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Speaker 1: knew that it was a movie that adults talked somewhat

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Speaker 1: fearfully about. I think specifically I had heard of it

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Speaker 1: in the part and Sleepless in Seattle, where Tom Hanks's

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Speaker 1: son obviously alludes to it because he's like, so, if

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Speaker 1: you date, you're probably gonna have sex, right, And his

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Speaker 1: dad's like, I certainly hope so, and he's like, and

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Speaker 1: if you have sex, I think she's going to scratch

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Speaker 1: up your back, which he like learned from probably from

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Speaker 1: watching Basic Instinct on cable or any of the other

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Speaker 1: abundant like sort of Glossy got really bad reviews but

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Speaker 1: did amazing when they hit the video rental market movies

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Speaker 1: of the time, like other Joe esther Haws films, including

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Speaker 1: Sliver and Jade. So I think I guess like I

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Speaker 1: watched it because I was like, this is a movie

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Speaker 1: that scandalize as adult ELTs, and I want to see

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Speaker 1: something that scandalized adults. And then I remember just being like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what I think about this. It felt

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Speaker 1: like it was too deep a look into like the

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Speaker 1: sordidness of adult culture. And then when I came back

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Speaker 1: to it as an adult, the thing I really noticed

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Speaker 1: was that the score by Gerry Goldsmith is doing so

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Speaker 1: much work I think to sort of try and be Hitchcockian, right,

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Speaker 1: It's like it's its own character and it's a very

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Speaker 1: loud character that won't stop screaming, and it always kicks

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Speaker 1: in after Catherine is like I enjoyed having sex with him,

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Speaker 1: It's like what, Like, oh, that's it's like a big

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Speaker 1: scary reveal just happened. And it also does that when

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Speaker 1: she's like, I was having sex with my girlfriend or whatever. Right,

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Speaker 1: it did feel like I was trying to put myself

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Speaker 1: in brain and I was like, that was supposed to

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Speaker 1: be like a huge reveal, right, like her queerness was

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Speaker 1: a reveal when it's like you could also watch that

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Speaker 1: scene and still have it be very Verhoeven exploitative, where

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Speaker 1: she like grabs her girlfriend's boom the second she enters

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Speaker 1: the room. But it's like you can also watch that

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Speaker 1: with goggles. Would be like, oh, okay, she's with someone

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Speaker 1: and that is why he's upset. But it's clearly like

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Speaker 1: he's upset that she's with someone and that person is yeah,

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Speaker 1: very upset to him. This movie is so weird. This

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Speaker 1: movie is so weird, Jamie, what's your history with it?

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Speaker 1: Not much? Um, I've never seen it before we started

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Speaker 1: prepping for this episode. It's weird. I feel like Sharon

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Speaker 1: Stone is just popping up in my life a lot. Recently.

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Speaker 1: I've gotten many, many recommendations to read her her memoir

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Speaker 1: that came out last year, which I haven't started yet,

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Speaker 1: but I'm very, very excited. And then I also recently

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Speaker 1: saw Casino for the first time, and she's amazing in movie.

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Speaker 1: Because Sarah, you were talking to me about Casino. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love her so much in Casino. She's amazing Casino.

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Speaker 1: If you've seen bass against inco, watch Casino and see

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Speaker 1: what it's like when Sharon's giving it a percent right

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Speaker 1: and like she's given like a part that's maybe a

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Speaker 1: little more cogent um. But but yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I've been in a Sharon state of mind. I was

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Speaker 1: very ready and excited for this. And also Paul Verhoeven

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Speaker 1: just came out with a new movie that I want

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Speaker 1: to see, Benedetta. It's a lesbian nun thriller, so I

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Speaker 1: will be seeing that and hopefully, Well this is interesting

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Speaker 1: too because it's like he's returning to lesbians. I hope

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Speaker 1: he does a good job. Growth is important. Yeah, we'll see.

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Speaker 1: I know it's it's it's so I've got a series

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Speaker 1: of He's tricky, He's tricky. This is the second for

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Speaker 1: Hoven movie we've covered on the show. We covered Starship

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Speaker 1: Troopers last year, which um is an extremely different movie,

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Speaker 1: but there are still themes that kind of crossover in

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Speaker 1: most of his work, and I'm interested to talk about

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Speaker 1: how this movie depicts police work. Also, like there's just

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Speaker 1: there's just a lot going on. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: to feel about any of it. My take I I've

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Speaker 1: done a ton of research and done a ton of reading,

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Speaker 1: which I know how to do. Congrats. My takeaway is

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Speaker 1: that I love Sharon Stone. So we're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: really tease this apart today. Caitlin, what's your history with

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Speaker 1: Basic Instinct? My history is that I saw Hot Shots

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Speaker 1: Part Do as a child, a movie I watched over

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Speaker 1: and over and over again, which very heavily spoofs. It's

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Speaker 1: a spoof. It is a spoof, not specifically of Basic Instant,

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Speaker 1: because it's spoofs a bunch of different movies of that era.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's so it's like that, it's sort of like,

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Speaker 1: what are those other like like scary movie, scary movie,

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Speaker 1: but like the Leslie Nielsen movie. Yeah exactly, yes, So, um,

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Speaker 1: I'm learning anyway, the very famous scenes in Basic Instinct

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Speaker 1: are heavily referenced in Hot Shots Part Do, but I

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Speaker 1: didn't understand the references to Basic Instinct or any of

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Speaker 1: the other movies it's spoofs until years later when I

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Speaker 1: finally got around to watching all those other movies. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: so a lot of the like famous imagery from Basic

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Speaker 1: Instinct I was very familiar with. And then when I

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Speaker 1: saw the movie for the first time, which was I

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Speaker 1: think I was in college, I was like, Oh, that's

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Speaker 1: what Hot Shots Part Do was referencing. So I saw

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Speaker 1: I so funny. What are the things that it's specifically

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Speaker 1: spoofs in this The scene where you see Sharon stones vagina,

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Speaker 1: the scene that I just kept referring to that as

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Speaker 1: thus seen because I had not seen this movie and

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Speaker 1: everyone knows that scene right, it's like the chess Burster

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Speaker 1: an alien, it's that big of a surprise. And Hot

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Speaker 1: Shots Part Do, however, you that's shot differently. It's shot

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Speaker 1: with the woman from behind and you just see her

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Speaker 1: leg very um exaggeratedly lift up over her head to

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Speaker 1: like cross to the other side. That's pretty good. And

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Speaker 1: then there's a sex scene and Hot Shots Part Do

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Speaker 1: where she's having sex with Charlie Sheen is unfortunately in

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Speaker 1: the movie, and she ties his arms to the bed

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Speaker 1: post with this white silk scarf, and then she is

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Speaker 1: like reaching for something and you're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: what's she reaching for? And then she grabs a screwdriver

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Speaker 1: and kind of unscrews part of the bed frame to

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Speaker 1: make it creakier so that when they continue to have sex,

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Speaker 1: it's like way more like you have to have hot

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Speaker 1: shots part do because those movies can get pretty like

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Speaker 1: gnarly and exploitative and like really bad. And that sounds

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Speaker 1: just like I think he's just like superhand in this. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what if Catherine was just really handy. Does either of

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Speaker 1: you ever watch those thumb movies? Yes? Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: And I took foreverard to download to thumb Wars. There's

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Speaker 1: a Caitlin I should show in thumb Tanic. Yes, there's

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Speaker 1: it's a series. It's it's the thumber Verse. But it's

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Speaker 1: like a series of spoof movies where it's just like

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Speaker 1: a spoof movie but only with thumbs. It was really funny.

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Speaker 1: Me and my cousins used to watch thumb Wars long

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Speaker 1: before I saw actual Star Wars. I thought I saw

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Speaker 1: thumb Wars many times beautiful, and it's just as good.

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Speaker 1: So in conclusion, I saw Basic for the first time

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Speaker 1: in college. I saw it again. I think I rewatched

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Speaker 1: it right when we covered Fatal Attraction, because I get

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Speaker 1: those two movies confused a lot because they're both Michael

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Speaker 1: Douglas and it's both about a scary woman who murders

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Speaker 1: and who wants to have sex with Michael Douglas for

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Speaker 1: some reason. Right, It's it's like literally, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Michael Douglas is a character who's threatened by a woman's agency,

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Speaker 1: but it turns out he's right. That's a classic class

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Speaker 1: So sorry, the movie was called thumb Wars the Phantom Cuticle.

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Speaker 1: Pretty funny. I love it. It's pretty great. Sorry, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I done so anyway. Yeah, I had seen Basic Instinct

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Speaker 1: a couple of times before prepping, and I've seen it

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Speaker 1: twice since we started prepping. And I, similarly, who don't

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Speaker 1: really know what to make of this movie. I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of all over the place. There's so much to unpack.

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Speaker 1: I feel like my notes are so long, and yet

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Speaker 1: I feel like I've barely scratched the surface. Like it

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Speaker 1: sounds like we're all kind of on the same page here,

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Speaker 1: of like, well, let's just talk about it and see

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Speaker 1: what happens. You got us for Hoven uh for. Movies

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Speaker 1: are honestly very hard to cover on this show. That

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Um, so we're going to try. Let's take

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Speaker 1: a quick break and then I'll get into the recap. Wait. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm like the guy who wrote thumb Wars has written

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Speaker 1: so many famous movies. What written He wrote The Nutty Professor,

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Speaker 1: he wrote Patch Adams, he wrote Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius.

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Speaker 1: He wrote Kung Pau Enter the Fist, which I used

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Speaker 1: to really love. And he wrote Bruce and Evan Almighty Wow,

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Speaker 1: and also, most famously, thumb Wars. I am interested in

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Speaker 1: thumb Tanic. It's pretty good. All the next time I

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Speaker 1: come over, I'll it's got to be somewhere. I'll find it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll pay money to rent it. Let's charge it to

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Speaker 1: the Yeah, that's what Patreon money is for to watch tank.

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Speaker 1: I think our our matron's will will understand. Maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: that's what we could cover for our for our Titanic episodes,

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Speaker 1: because we're running out of Titanic content. UH speak for yourself. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: you're right. Yeah, it's on YouTube in full. Okay, perfect. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So here's basic instinct and I'll place a trigger warning

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Speaker 1: at the top here because, um, there is a rape

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Speaker 1: scene in the movie. Okay, So we open on a

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Speaker 1: woman having sex with a man. We never quite see

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Speaker 1: her face because her blonde hair of obscuring it. We

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Speaker 1: see her tie up the man's hands with a white

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Speaker 1: silk scarf. Then she pulls out an ice pick and

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Speaker 1: stabs him repeatedly to death. Titanic reference. Um oh, because

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Speaker 1: of the ice pick slash iceberg. Yeah, maybe if the

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Speaker 1: that the joke going there was maybe if they had

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Speaker 1: nice pick they could on board. She would have been like, oh, man,

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Speaker 1: I love doing this, sice a whole glacier guest for

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Speaker 1: me exactly. Wow, makes you think. Then we cut two.

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Speaker 1: Detective Nick Curran played by Michael Douglas and his partner

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Speaker 1: Gus Moran there at the scene of the crime. We

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Speaker 1: are in San Francisco, by the way. The victim, Johnny Boss,

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Speaker 1: was last seen the night before with his girlfriend Katherine Trammel.

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Speaker 1: So Nick and Gus go to Katherine's house to question her.

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Speaker 1: She isn't there, but Katherine's friend Roxy is, and Roxy

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Speaker 1: directs them to where Katherine is, which is like her

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Speaker 1: second home summer where she's being hot on a balcony. Right,

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Speaker 1: Nick and Gus Fine, Katherine trammel Um. She is Sharon Stone.

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Speaker 1: Of course, she's very sultry and sexy, and she has

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Speaker 1: the same exact hey and body type and skin color

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Speaker 1: as the lady who murdered Johnny Boss. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: she did it, which is so wild, you're like she

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Speaker 1: and she did. And then Catherine tells the detectives, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was fucking that guy, but I didn't go home

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Speaker 1: with him and I didn't kill him. Now go away.

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Speaker 1: That's a fun place to start the movie, where she's

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Speaker 1: just I mean and and yes does the movie ultimately

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Speaker 1: undercut the fact that she enjoys sex and isn't ashamed

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Speaker 1: to admit it and implies that if you, if that's you,

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Speaker 1: you two could be a murderer. But I really enjoyed

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Speaker 1: her like delivery in that scene, and when she's just

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Speaker 1: like telling, like Sharon Stone telling to cops to go

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Speaker 1: funk themselves is an inherently satisfying experience, no matter the

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Speaker 1: subtext of what the movie wants me to think I

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Speaker 1: like to see her neg cops. I hope that if

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Speaker 1: ever I have the misfortune of having to interact with

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Speaker 1: a cop, I have the guts to say, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you, fuck off and get the

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Speaker 1: funk outta here. I mean, she's also yeah, she's also

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Speaker 1: protected by a lot of privilege, but it's still very

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Speaker 1: cathartic to watch. Yeah, they got to go on a

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Speaker 1: tour of all her real estate before they meet her

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Speaker 1: and see all her sports cars in the driveway. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, she's got holdings, she's got a Picasso. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So then they leave at her request, and Nick goes

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Speaker 1: to see a counselor Beth played by Jean triple Horn

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Speaker 1: awesome name, who he is mandated by Internal Affairs to

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Speaker 1: see for reasons that we don't yet know. They're talking

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Speaker 1: and he refers to the sexual relationship he used to

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Speaker 1: have with Beth, and then she tells him that she

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Speaker 1: still misses him so already, Like it's so funny. There's

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Speaker 1: like police corruption for the jump where they're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so everyone in the office is aware of this relationship,

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Speaker 1: which we find out right away, and his him keeping

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Speaker 1: his job relies on you know, him remaining in her

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Speaker 1: good favor or her being hung up on him, and

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Speaker 1: everyone's like, yep, that's fine, that's which, I'm sure, which

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Speaker 1: which is like, I'm sure not too far from the truth. Na,

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Speaker 1: your ex girlfriend will be very therapeutic, right. Oh gosh,

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Speaker 1: there's there's so much this movie's views on psychiatry. There's

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Speaker 1: so much yes, yes, yes, yes, Okay. So then Nick

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Speaker 1: and Gus go over more details of this case and

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Speaker 1: the victim, Johnny Boss, who was a former rock and

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Speaker 1: roll star. They also discussed Katherine Trammel as a suspect.

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Speaker 1: She is an author, and it turns out that she

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Speaker 1: published a book the year before under a pen name,

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Speaker 1: about a retired rock and all star who gets murdered

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Speaker 1: by his girlfriend when she ties up his hands with

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Speaker 1: a white silk scarf and stabs him with an ice pick. Amazing.

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Speaker 1: So Katherine is starting to seem extra suspicious. So then

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Speaker 1: Nick and Gus bring Catherine to the station to question

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Speaker 1: her on the way. She tells him about a new

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Speaker 1: book she's writing about a detective who falls for the

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Speaker 1: wrong woman and then she kills the detective. I think

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Speaker 1: that there's so many scenes in this movie that I

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Speaker 1: know that we um, what have we renamed the bush

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Speaker 1: Emmy test? But we could run the bush Emmy test

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Speaker 1: on Sharon stone several times in this movie and be like,

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Speaker 1: if this were a regular looking person saying these things,

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Speaker 1: she would be so in jail, Like it's wild how

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Speaker 1: in jail she would be? Yeah, absolutely so. Then at

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Speaker 1: the police station, the assistant district Attorney A. K Wayne

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Speaker 1: Knight questions her. Wayne Knight was like cranking out the

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Speaker 1: hits in this series of years. Oh yeah, because in

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Speaker 1: the next year he's in Jurassic Park and oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: he gets to see a vagina and a dinosaur in

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Speaker 1: a single calendar year. We should all be so lucky.

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Speaker 1: So he's questioning her, and this is when we get

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Speaker 1: the famous Sharon Stone on crosses her legs and flashes

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Speaker 1: her volva scene. There's plenty to talk about with this,

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Speaker 1: we'll get to it. Katherine says, do you think I

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Speaker 1: would be so foolish as to murder someone in the

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Speaker 1: exact way I described in my book? So she's basically

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Speaker 1: using her book as an alibi, which is what a

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Speaker 1: few psychologists had said she would do if she is

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Speaker 1: in fact the murderer right, and even though Catherine passes

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Speaker 1: a lie detector test, Nick still thinks that she's lying

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Speaker 1: and that she is probably guilty, especially because of some

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Speaker 1: deaths in the past that Catherine could be linked to,

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Speaker 1: such as her parents died in a voting accident, a

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Speaker 1: professor she had in college was murdered, and a boxer

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Speaker 1: boyfriend died while they were dating. To quote her, everyone

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Speaker 1: I love dies and she doesn't seem to be wrong there,

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Speaker 1: And Stephen Tobolski is there, which I think is fun. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I didn't see that coming. That's yet another thrilling basic

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Speaker 1: instinct twist. He's also having a good couple of years,

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Speaker 1: because he's in Groundhog Day right around this time, being

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Speaker 1: ed Ryerson. Well, I'm glad that the boys are thriving

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Speaker 1: in the early nineties. Good for them. The white men

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Speaker 1: are having a blast. I think that they're still doing

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Speaker 1: well to this day. Yeah, I think you may be right. Um, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So that night Nick goes home with Beth the counselor,

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Speaker 1: and then again trigger warning for rape, he rapes her.

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Speaker 1: Although the movie is as I'm concerned, treats this as

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Speaker 1: a consensual sex scene, I think that there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a well, let's we'll get to that conversation. We'll get

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Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, yeah, I felt a little bit differently,

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Speaker 1: but I see what you're saying. Then Nick tails Katherine

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Speaker 1: for a while. There's a scene where she's driving like

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Speaker 1: a bat out of hell and he's chasing her. He

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Speaker 1: pays her another visit. He discovers that she has all

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Speaker 1: these articles about him, and we find out why he

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Speaker 1: has been mandated to see a counselor. Apparently he had

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Speaker 1: shot a couple of tourists a while back, and Catherine

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Speaker 1: has been following this story for quite some time because,

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Speaker 1: according to her, she's using him as inspiration for the

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Speaker 1: detective in the book she's writing, he's a killer cop.

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Speaker 1: It's there's so much to talk about. She keeps calling

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Speaker 1: him shooter. She also fixes him a drink and then

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Speaker 1: breaks the ice with fishemy test. She's in jail again.

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Speaker 1: Right then Nick realizes she has access to his psychiatric file,

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Speaker 1: which she apparently got from this guy in internal affairs,

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Speaker 1: this guy Nielsen, who then ends up dead. He was

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Speaker 1: shot in the head and everyone thinks that Nick did it,

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Speaker 1: so he gets put on leave, but Nick thinks Catherine

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Speaker 1: Tremell did it. So then Catherine shows up at his place.

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Speaker 1: She's being all seductive and messing with his head. He

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Speaker 1: meets up with her a little later at a dance club.

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Speaker 1: Then they go back to her place and have sex.

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Speaker 1: She ties him up with a white silk scarf and

422
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,719
Speaker 1: we think maybe she's going to stab him with an

423
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: ice pick, but she doesn't. She just like collapses on

424
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: him in pleasure or something. Um. Then it's called ecstasy.

425
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: Caitlin ever heard of it? Yeah? Nick has had a

426
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 1: great time. He's like, Wow, that was the fun the century.

427
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: Katherine is like it was a good start. We also

428
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: have learned by this point that Katherine is in some

429
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: sort of romantic and or sexual relationship with that woman Roxy,

430
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: who we met at the beginning, although we don't really

431
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 1: well we can talk about this too, but we don't

432
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: know that much about their relationship. But Roxy does seem

433
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: to be very jealous of Nick. And then someone tries

434
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: to run over Nick in what looks like Katherine's car.

435
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: There's a high speed chase. The person chasing Nick crashes

436
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: and it turns out to be Roxy, who has died

437
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: in the crash. They kill their gays folks, and we're

438
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: may be meant to think, oh, so was it Roxy

439
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: who maybe killed Johnny Boss question Mark? But now it's

440
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: the person that you are told in the opening scene

441
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: did it right? So then Nick goes to see Katherine again.

442
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: She is upset about Roxy's death. She's all like, oh,

443
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: I have such bad luck dating women, and she tells

444
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: him about this woman that she met in college, Lisa Hoberman,

445
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: who she slept with once, and then this woman started

446
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: stalking Catherine. I immediately was like, oh, so Beth, But

447
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: the movie takes it like fifteen minutes to be like

448
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: and it was Beth. You're like, I think I could

449
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: I think you could tell because you're told, Like, why

450
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: else would you be told? They went to college to

451
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: get right? This movie kind of like skirt around Some

452
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: thinks nobody knows there are multiple nicknames for Elizabeth and

453
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: that this is a really bright quest right, Yes that too?

454
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: Especially yeah, because also Catherine originally was like her name

455
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: is Lisa Oberman and then he's like I couldn't find

456
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: anyone named Lisa Oberman and she's like, I said, that's

457
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: so goofy. I like, why what a waste of five minutes,

458
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: but it made me laugh. The two lines that made

459
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: me laugh the most in this movie where I said Hoberman,

460
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: which should be added to every movie at some point,

461
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: a very human misunderstanding that has no place in a thriller.

462
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: And then at the end when Beth says I love

463
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: you was dying, I was like, this damn movie makes

464
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: no sense. Have some dignity, Beth, I know, and she's

465
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: She's like the twist, I'm not a murderer, and I

466
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: love men so much, even when they're rapist murderers. Remember

467
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: my little Simpson's key Chane, I only loved you. Shout

468
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: out to bart Art high bart visibility. Truly, there's also

469
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,959
Speaker 1: some pizza Hut visibility. I just wanted to shut up

470
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: at um. My favorite line of dialogue in the movie,

471
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: towards the very beginning, one of the few people of

472
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: color in the movie. It's another cop named Sam. He

473
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: says there's cum stains all over the sheets. He sure does,

474
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: and that is a line of dialogue. And then that's

475
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: a sag card. Yeah, okay. So Nick looks into this

476
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: Lisa person who turns out to be Beth, the counselor

477
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: who works for the police department. Beth says, Katherine stalked

478
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: Beth in college. Katherine says Beth stok Katherine in college.

479
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: They're both claiming that the other one was like single

480
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: White Female NG the other which also comes out this

481
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: same year, right, So it's not even like they were

482
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: ripping it from there. They were just this was just

483
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: something that was on the brain. I wonder if there's

484
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: like a real life story that was like on people's mind,

485
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: because I was I was like, that's so bizarre. Why

486
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: were women all supposed to be murdering each other in

487
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: the early nineties right about? Yeah, which you've covered extensively there, Yeah,

488
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: not so much the idea that women were murdering other

489
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: women at this time though. That's really interesting. Yeah, I've

490
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: covered men's perpetual fear of being murdered by women, right, Yes,

491
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: so Single White Female really subverts some troll hopes. It's

492
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: like women can murder other women too, Like, hey, we

493
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: can murder each other too, don't forget it. And that's feminism. Yes,

494
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: third wave feminism is amazing. It makes so much sense. Okay,

495
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: so we're not sure who to trust, we're not sure

496
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: who's telling the truth, but now Nick thinks that Beth

497
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: is the prime suspect, and she's seeming more and more

498
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: suspicious because Beth's husband was mysteriously shot and killed a

499
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: few years back. Meanwhile, Katherine ends things with Nick because

500
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: she was just using him for her book, which she

501
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: has finished. Nick is all hurt, and then he goes

502
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: with Gus to meet up with another woman who knew

503
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: Catherine and Beth in college. But it's a setup. The

504
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: killer stabs and kills Gus with an ice pick. Nick

505
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: rushes in. Beth is right there and I again because

506
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: Nick thinks that she's the prime suspect, he shoots her

507
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: so abruptly, like yeah, I mean, really, is uh being

508
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: a cop about it? Right? And then the cops find

509
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: a bunch of incriminating evidence at the crime scene and

510
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: in Beth's apartment, so it seems like she was the

511
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: killer all along. Nick goes back to Catherine. She takes

512
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: him back. She's all like, I don't want to lose you.

513
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: They have sex. It seems like again maybe she's going

514
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: to stab him with an ice pick, but then she doesn't.

515
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: But but then we pan down to see that she

516
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: has an ice pick on the floor that she maybe

517
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: was or is going to kill him with. So now

518
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, she is the killer. She apparently just

519
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: framed Beth and that's the end of the movie. Every

520
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: Woman is a murderer. How how many times have we

521
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: talked about this on the show? Every Woman is a

522
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: stone cold killer. Yeah, so let's take another quick break

523
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: and we'll come back to discuss, and we're back. Uh,

524
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: where where should we start, gang, I mean, where where

525
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: makes sense? I mean, I guess what we can sort

526
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 1: of just state the obvious of Katherine Trammel being a

527
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: pretty classic fem fatale character. You know, she's seductive, she's cunning,

528
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: she uses her sexuality to lure men in and then

529
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: kill them. But she's also like a fum fatale dialed

530
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: up to an eleven because a lot of like fum

531
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: fatale characters were from movies of like the forties and fifties,

532
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: which were under the Hayes production Code restrictions, which meant

533
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: that there couldn't be sex, nudity, overt sexuality, any romance

534
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: or implied sex had to be heterosexual. There could be

535
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: no graphic violence, things like that. So Catherine is this

536
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: like post production code version of the film Fatale, which

537
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: means we see nudity, we see sex. She loves to

538
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: have sex, she loves fucking, she talks about it all

539
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: the time. And then she also seems to be able

540
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: to like very easily detach emotion from sex, which the

541
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: movie seems to be making a judgment call about because

542
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: of these are all the things that make Katherine Tramel

543
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: so sinister and so fatal. It's like she's probably a murderer.

544
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: She's having sex casually, right, Like that's repeatedly insinuate, you know,

545
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: all while and it's I guess part of what I

546
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: struggle with this movie is I can't parse out always

547
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: self aware it's being but yeah, like all all, well,

548
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: you know, Michael Douglas is having casual sex all the

549
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: time and including non consensual casual sex, and um, isn't

550
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: he's not a well actually he is a murderer, but

551
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 1: it's not as big a deal when he does it.

552
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: It's so confused, like he doesn't well, he's at work,

553
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: so it's better. It's very confusing. So something's been in

554
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: the air on the pod lately. We've been covering a

555
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: lot of different from Fatale characters. We did double indemnity.

556
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 1: We did a simple favor and now we're doing basic instinct,

557
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean it's I understand. I guess why

558
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: people have a hard time with this movie because a

559
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: lot of Catherine's dialogue and a lot of Sharon Stone's performance.

560
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: I think it's like very reclaimable because it's so matter

561
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: of fact and good where she you know, when she's

562
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: like I wasn't dating him, I was fucking him, You're like, yeah,

563
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: that's exciting, you know, or like are you sad he's dead? Yes,

564
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: because I liked fucking him. Like that's it's so like

565
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: can't be it funny and like you don't get to

566
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: see women talk like that very often. But also we're

567
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: supposed to think that she's a supervillain, right, so it's

568
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: a it's it's tricky. Right. On one hand, it's the

569
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: villainizing a sexually liberated woman, which is what the fem

570
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: fay towels whole thing is is like, well, a woman

571
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: who is sexy and and you're seduced by her and

572
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: she likes sex, Well, obviously she's evil because sexual liberation

573
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: and a woman is scary. But then, like you said, Jamie,

574
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: like there's an argument to be made that that's still

575
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: representation on screen of a sexually liberated woman, and you

576
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: don't often get to see a woman just like very

577
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 1: openly talk about how much she enjoys sex and how

578
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 1: she likes men who give her pleasure, and she seems

579
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: to be prioritizing her pleasure over giving a man pleasure.

580
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: And it's not a role model situation, but it is, like,

581
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: I don't know this movie is for adults, hopefully, I mean,

582
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: I guess what I saw, and it was, like it

583
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: is kind of cathartic to see whether this was intended

584
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: or not, which I don't really think it was. But like,

585
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: see a woman who is like, by far the smartest

586
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: person in the room, playing a bunch of cops and

587
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: doing whatever the funk she wants, like that is inherently exciting,

588
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: like and and fun to watch. I mean, she's she's cool,

589
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: she's she's like, what if I commit a bunch of

590
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: murders and don't try to hide it and then when

591
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: I'm questioned about it, I'll basically be like, yeah, I'm

592
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: a murderer, and then I'll just keep getting away with it.

593
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: Let's just do that again. That was fun last time.

594
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,439
Speaker 1: It's I mean, and it's like she got when they

595
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: quote unquote arrest her the first time to take her

596
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: down for the scene, like the questioning scene. I just

597
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: like it is the most like rich white lady arrest

598
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: ever where she's like, you're arresting me, Okay, we'll let

599
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: me change first, and you're just like she but like

600
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: the way that sheared Stone like owns every second of

601
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: it is so I mean, I really love watching her

602
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: in this movie. And and I'm not that's not even

603
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: really in defense of the movie as much as it

604
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: is of like watching this I get why this movie

605
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: has severe detractors, and I get why it has huge

606
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: camp fans, which is feel like it's true of a

607
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: lot of Verhoeven stuff. Um. And also it's like most

608
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: of the people that she kills seem like they sucked.

609
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: Well maybe not her parents. We don't know that they

610
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: were rich white people, so chances are so she and

611
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: she's awesome, So it's kind of hard anyways, and I

612
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: like that. Okay, so other elements of her character before

613
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: we get to the biphobia discussion, which we which needs

614
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: to be had, things I liked about Catherine. I like

615
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: that she everyone in this movie is doing a police corruption,

616
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: like literally everyone every main character is involved in, but

617
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: she's the She's the only one that's doing like police

618
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: corruption for sort of good, Like she's she's the only

619
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: person in the movie who I mean, and it's for

620
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: selfish means, she doesn't care, but she does almost expose

621
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: Michael Douglas as a murderous cop in a way that

622
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: most people wouldn't have been able to. She gets his records,

623
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: She's constantly like four shootings in five years, all accidents.

624
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: Doesn't sound legit to me, like which I again, it's

625
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: like Paul Verhoven didn't write this movie, but it sounds

626
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: like he demanded that it be rewritten a lot of times,

627
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: and he does have a preoccupation with like militarized police,

628
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: which I do think kind of comes out in this movie.

629
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: It's like, such as making the call to make your

630
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: protagonist a cop who is a rapist and a murderer,

631
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: which is not uncommon things for cops to be in

632
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: in the US in particular. So I thought that that

633
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: was like interesting that she was kind of using her

634
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: power and like intelligence to do a police corruption in

635
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 1: her own interest. Um. Meanwhile, everyone else's police corruptions are

636
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,240
Speaker 1: for the police, where it's like, we gotta protect Michael

637
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 1: Douglas and therefore they're fine. Yeah. I also love how

638
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: he's the protagonist, and I feel like this was made

639
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: with the expectation that he's like, like, I think he's

640
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: supposed to be kind of a noir antiher. But I

641
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: assume that the audience when this came out was supposed

642
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: to be like, oh no, that for rapist and murderer.

643
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: He's going straight into the path of that murderer, right,

644
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: I do think that was the intent, Yes, which just like, uh,

645
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: it's so. I I feel if I had watched this

646
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: movie when I was younger, it would have sucked me

647
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: up so bad. It's so it's like it scrambles your

648
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: brain how much you see Michael Douglas like you see

649
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: him do like basically nothing right, Like, at what point

650
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: does he do something that is good at his job

651
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: or good morally? Like you? I feel like usually with

652
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: anti heroes there at least like good at their job,

653
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: like Don Draper was good at advertising. There's a scene

654
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: where he pulls out his little like notebook where he's

655
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: allegedly keeping and all it just has like a few

656
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: different addresses written on it. There's no like, oh yeah,

657
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, is that all the Is that the extent

658
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 1: of the police work you're doing. You're just writing down

659
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: addresses that other people have told you like to go to.

660
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: And at this point he's been on the case for months,

661
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: he's like all right, I think he's just checked out

662
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: and he's using being detective is a way to find

663
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: girl friends. Now, that is what it seems like, because

664
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: he he has everything he does is either bad police

665
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: work where he's like recklessly driving and like putting everyone

666
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: in danger. He's having sexual relationships with both his counselor

667
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: and his primary suspect and his prime suspect, which is

668
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: like very noir. But if you're just like buddy, the

669
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:34,479
Speaker 1: conflict of interest in everything he does is staggering. Well,

670
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: I think that that's kind of like again just like

671
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: a I guess we're sort of like talking about his

672
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: character here as well, Like he's gullible to the point

673
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 1: where it's kind of like attributing like a magical power

674
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: to shared's done character, like it's giving her like I mean,

675
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: it is a combination. It's not just like it's her

676
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: like powers of manipulation and like sexual prowess is like,

677
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: I feel like the movie wants you to think it's

678
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: making him bad at his job, and you're like, he

679
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: might just be bad at his job. It sounds like

680
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: he's bad at his job at the beginning. He can't

681
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: stop murdering people and having sex with everyone he shouldn't like.

682
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: And there's no mention of him solving a crime previously,

683
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: like there's so you know, it sounds like maybe he

684
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,959
Speaker 1: just always wasn't very good at it. But I feel

685
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: like the movie wants you to think like she has

686
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: led him, so, you know, far off a cliff with

687
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: her her various college degrees and Bob, he has a

688
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: master's degree. Okay, she's capable of anything, Caitlin, can you

689
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: attest to that? Yes, I can confirm as someone who

690
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: has a master's degree in screen writing from Boston University,

691
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: which I don't like to mention, you can kill people,

692
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: can murder people and get away with it. To quote

693
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: Gus when he's talking to Nick about Catherine, quote she

694
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: got that magna kum laude pussy on her. That done

695
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: fried up your brain? Sorry, that is that is another

696
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: line I wrote down is one of the greatest things

697
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 1: I've ever heard. Honorary Oscar Worthy Oscar for Best Single

698
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 1: Line in a Screenplay for Esther hass I want someone

699
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: to say, I've got magnacum laud a pussy. That's who

700
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: I really, honestly do. That's the thing. What a compliment.

701
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: He meant it as an insult, but I'm like, yeah,

702
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: go go for it. I'd be like, thank you. I

703
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: also like how I read the screenplay to Basic in

704
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: sing this morning. That was really it was really fun.

705
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: And one thing I like is that Gus in the

706
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 1: screenplay is supposed to be like twenty years older than

707
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: Nick and Oliver Hopean was like, what if they were

708
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 1: the same age? Interesting, which is funny because in the beginning,

709
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 1: when Gus doesn't know who Johnny Boss is, Nick is like, oh,

710
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: he's before your time, and it's like, really, they seem

711
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: to be about the same age. So that's um. But Jamie,

712
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: to go back to what you were talking about. I

713
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 1: feel like that's part of like one of the characteristics

714
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: of the firm fatalel archetype, where she's like a witch

715
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 1: basically who will put you in a trance and make

716
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 1: you bad at your job and make you do things

717
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: that otherwise reasonable man wouldn't do. But because he's under

718
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: the spell of this fem fatalel, he's not himself anymore.

719
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: And to kind of complicate that, I mean, it's like,

720
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting the ways where this trope is

721
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: like updated for the nineties or just I mean, I

722
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: guess this run of Michael Douglas movies where it's like

723
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: in the forties, you know, your FM faytales, they were

724
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, mostly cunning wives because that is, you know,

725
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: majority what you could be as a middle class white

726
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: woman at that time. But when it leveled up, it's like,

727
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: I feel like they think they're doing a good thing

728
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: by like giving her a higher and higher level of

729
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: education and achievement, but it just kind of becomes messy

730
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: in a different way where I like it also is

731
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 1: like this, I don't know what did either of you

732
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 1: think of it. I just was like, obviously, Michael Douglas

733
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: doesn't believe in um mental health in this movie, Like,

734
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 1: but I also thought it was interesting that like both

735
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: of the women, that he's kind of like ping ponging

736
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: between our authorities in mental health, where like shared Stone

737
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: has a master's in psychology and Beth is a psychologist

738
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: or like a police therapy. I don't want's her job

739
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: title either way, Like they both work in that field.

740
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: And he is clearly unwell and also doesn't believe it,

741
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: And I'm like, does the movie believe in psychology? Like

742
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: it's so confusing. I couldn't tell. Does the movie believe

743
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: in psychology? I couldn't tell either, But I mean, when

744
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: you have a protagonist who has certain opinions and the

745
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: movie asks you to go on this journey with this

746
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: protagonist and like see the world through his eyes, I

747
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,720
Speaker 1: feel like, and that's not the case for every movie,

748
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 1: but it's tricky when it's of Noir. I don't know.

749
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: But because he's like, you're a psychologist, well, your job

750
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: is to manipulate people, and obviously your whole thing is

751
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: to play games with people's heads, and that's what psychology is.

752
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: It takes a very mid sectury of you of therapy.

753
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: But I feel like it's also very obvious in text

754
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: that he's unwell, and so I don't think that we're

755
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: necessarily supposed to take him at his word in that moment.

756
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: So it's confusing. Yeah, right, I feel like the script

757
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: is maybe like he doesn't need therapy, just belongs to

758
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: the Fraternity of killers or something. But like, I mean,

759
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: I feel like the noir has its roots and like

760
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:56,439
Speaker 1: the concept of confusing vulnerability with strength or I guess

761
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: because being like, well, I'm traumatized in this way and

762
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: I have to do it. I have to make use

763
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: of it somehow, I guess now. And I feel like

764
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 1: that's where the tradition of the detective partly comes from,

765
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: this idea that like the detective sort of has to

766
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 1: stand between society and the French here in whatever way necessary,

767
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 1: and he can't really like be a happy family man.

768
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: He has to be a loner right right, which lines

769
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: up with the anti heroo stuff as well. It's so

770
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: it's I mean, I like that, it's great for hope.

771
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: The movies are so challenging, like I and I like

772
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: that about them, but it's, um, it's tricky. I I

773
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: felt like my and again I think I was maybe

774
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 1: I had to too much brain when I was watching

775
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: this because I was like, oh, well, obviously he's very unwell.

776
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: So the movie is probably like he should probably believe

777
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: in psychology, he'd get something out of it. But that's

778
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 1: almost definitely not what people would have you believe in two,

779
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: I don't know the other thing for Hope and sometimes

780
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:07,280
Speaker 1: will go rogue and like doesn't have a high opinion

781
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: of cops, and so I'm sort of like maybe, but

782
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: I don't know. To whatever degree the movie wants you

783
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: to think that Nick is unwell, every woman you meet

784
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: the movie does want you to think is way more

785
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: unwell and scary. And because they're like you said, Jamie,

786
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 1: they're all murderers. Like every woman in the movie who

787
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: has more than a line of dialogue is either confirmed

788
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: murderer or for some chunk of the movie, the audience

789
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 1: is led to believe that she probably is a murderer. Well,

790
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: and they're also all some well actually I don't I

791
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: don't know about Roxy, but they're also all like the

792
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 1: depraved bisexual to some extent, Right, all the women that

793
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: we're supposed to believe are murderers. I believe I think

794
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: so or or you know, yes, except again, we don't

795
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: know if Roxy is bisexual or she's we don't know,

796
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 1: right right right, movie doesn't care. But between like Catherine

797
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: who you could argue that the ending is ambiguous, but

798
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: also pretty clear that yes, she was the killer all along. Beth,

799
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: because of the ambiguity of the ending, is also then

800
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 1: ambiguous as to whether or not she was a murderer

801
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: of any kind. But at least with my read of

802
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: the movie, Catherine framed Beth. But even so, Beth is

803
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: a character who seems to be withholding information and she

804
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: still seems to be like devious in some way, and

805
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: we can kind of we can get into that more

806
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: in a bit. But then there's Roxy, who we learned

807
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: killed her two young brothers when she was a teenager

808
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 1: because she just felt an impulse to kill and she

809
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: tried to kill Nick by running him over with a car,

810
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: So she's a confirmed murderer. Roxy is troped literally to

811
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: death in Safe. And then there's this woman Hazel, Hazel

812
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: Dobkins or something, who is a friend of Katherine's who

813
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: also might be in a romantic relationship with Katherine. I

814
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: thought that was so unclear to me, at least in

815
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: a kissing relationship. Yeah, they kiss, and then Catherine calls

816
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: her honey at some point, an implication for movie, right.

817
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: And then Hazel, we learned, killed her husband and three

818
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: small children by stabbing them with a knife, So that's

819
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: not good. I don't think that there's I don't think

820
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,919
Speaker 1: that there's very much like that's where the I mean,

821
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: it's with the depraved bisexual trope, which we just talked about,

822
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: which is a newer concept for us, but we talked

823
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: about it on the A Simple Favor episode. That really

824
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 1: doesn't work as much for me. But there's a bunch

825
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: of um, there's a bunch of Indians about this. Yeah,

826
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 1: should we get into it? Yeah, let's get I mean,

827
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: there's there's so much to talk about there. I had there.

828
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: There's been a lot written about this over the years,

829
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: but the context that you need that I didn't. I

830
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,399
Speaker 1: didn't know that it had escalated to this point. But

831
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: the queer community in San Francisco, of which there's obviously

832
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: like a huge historically queer community in San Francisco were

833
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: not happy when this movie was being made. When they

834
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: were filming in San Francisco, the production called in the

835
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: San Francisco Police Department riot police every day, which is

836
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: almost certainly a gigantic overreaction, but the queer community was

837
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: protesting significantly. They were holding signs that said honk if

838
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: you love the forty niners and honk if you love men,

839
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: which is very funny. Um, but they basically did everything

840
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: they could to stop the movie from being filmed cogently,

841
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: like they used lasers and whistles to interfere with the

842
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: filming of the movie. And one of the producers of

843
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: the movie, Alan Marshall, allegedly selected individual protesters and demand

844
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,720
Speaker 1: they'd be arrested, which is um fucked up. And then

845
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: the protesters did a citizen's arrest of the producer, which

846
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: came to nothing because the cops don't give a ship.

847
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: But all that to say, like this was at no

848
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: point was the issue with the depraved bisexual troops in

849
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: this movie not an issue like before it came out,

850
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 1: it was a very controversial thing. Verhoven I guess defended

851
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: the protesters right to protest, but disagreed because it's his movie.

852
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 1: Um So, how this kind of is played out is

853
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: as time passes, as time famously does. There's a lot

854
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: of people who are still you know, very for on

855
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: the like this is extremely biphobic in a way that

856
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: is not reclaimable. And then there are queer writers and

857
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: filmmakers who have found prose and reclaimable elements to it.

858
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: So yeah, so that's the context. So what's happening in

859
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 1: the in the movie itself is that it's playing into

860
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 1: stereotypes about bisexual people, such as that bisexual people are promiscuous,

861
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: they are untrustworthy, they are immoral cheaters, the cheaters, And

862
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: then the movie takes it a step further and says,

863
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: any queer woman is an evil murderer who will just

864
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 1: snap at the drop of a hat and murder without motive,

865
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: just because they had the impulse to do it. That

866
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: was so wow. They're like, yeah, she just saw a

867
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: razor and was like, let's do this. Baby. You're like, what,

868
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: I don't want it to go to waste. I have

869
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: to kill someone with a the sharp object that's near me.

870
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 1: And yet like, and Jamie, you're a girl boss expert.

871
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: This is why I'm asking you. Is there anything more

872
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: a girl boss than being a sexually motivated female murderer

873
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:20,240
Speaker 1: of men? Exactly, Ladies, I've been saying this, um, women's

874
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: empowerment means getting away with murder. I wish I was

875
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: my thora nosed T shirts and the male I don't

876
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: have it yet, but and making men fear for their

877
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: right to have sex. It is so like, it's so messy,

878
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 1: it's so many Like. I found a piece written by

879
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 1: a queer filmmaker named Adam Morrison who's kind of like

880
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: went to bat for this movie in and I thought, like,

881
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: and also while acknowledging the clear biphobic issues, because also contextually,

882
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: it's important to remember that Basic Instincts came out at

883
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 1: a time where queer representation in general was kind of

884
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 1: like an all time low, while the AIDS crisis was ongoing.

885
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: Um like the Silence of the Lambs had come out

886
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: the previous year, which the queer community was kind of

887
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 1: like rightfully on high alert about how they were being

888
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: represented in film because it was egregiously bad. So yeah,

889
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: he he writes a quote, if we're dying of a plague,

890
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: can't get married, can't adopt, can get fired or evicted.

891
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: If anyone finds out our sexual orientation, why on earth

892
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 1: will be supportive film that paints us as nothing more

893
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,439
Speaker 1: than He then would like to funk hard and then

894
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 1: stab each other unquote. But then he counterpoints that twenty

895
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 1: four years later by saying the following, which I thought was,

896
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:45,879
Speaker 1: I don't know, like I I don't I truly don't

897
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,720
Speaker 1: know where I fall here, but he says, uh, quote,

898
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: when was the last time you saw a movie where

899
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: a gay character was the wealthiest person in the room?

900
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 1: Katherine Trammels worth a hundred million? When was the last

901
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: time you saw a movie where a gay character was

902
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 1: the smartest person in the room? One was last time

903
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: you saw a gay character be the most successful? Catherine's

904
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 1: books are best sellers. When was the last time a

905
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 1: gay character was all three of those things that once?

906
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 1: Probably never? And then he sort of goes on to

907
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 1: like draw this comparison of like, she has these godlike qualities,

908
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: she's kind of like omnipotent, She's she can outwit literally anyone,

909
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: and in the end, for her purposes, she wins. She

910
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: gets away with it. Um, so she's not punished or

911
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: killed off, and so, which I think is like an

912
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 1: interesting read of the movie. I don't know. Yeah, I

913
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: mean that to me is just like, well, when representation

914
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: invisibility is low and bad, all you can do is

915
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: grasp at the crumbs. And that's what that feels like. Well,

916
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: that's yeah, I mean, I'm not suggesting that any of

917
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: that was intended in text, but I do understand that

918
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: argument also, sure, Sure, and then to break down the

919
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 1: various relationships even further, because I kept thinking we were

920
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: going to learn more about Catherine's relationship with Roxy. Yeah,

921
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 1: but you never really do you know that they lived together?

922
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: Question mark? I think so right? Or was that Cannon

923
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: and Esther has trying to write them having a quiet

924
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 1: night at home and Roxy being like is this chicken

925
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: from Thursday night? You know? And like that's another thing.

926
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: I kept thinking, like we never see them interact except

927
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: to kiss in a couple of scenes, but we don't.

928
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: There's no dialogue between them, and so this is a

929
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: movie where like if the movie passed the Bechtel test

930
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 1: between these two characters, that would be great because we

931
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: would know anything about their relationship. But that's where it's like,

932
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: it's so early nineties where I bet that the writer,

933
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: who what's the writer's name again, Joe Ester, has really

934
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 1: thought he was doing something by like making her well

935
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: educated and like giving us a lot of information about

936
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: her at the top, but we never yeah, like we

937
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: never get information about and I don't think that it

938
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: would have taken away from the non mystery of this movie,

939
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: which is that she did it and we see it

940
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: in the first scene to flesh out that relationship a

941
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: little bit more. I think it actually would have helped

942
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 1: the point later where it's like she's saying, like, I, I,

943
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: you know, really cared about Roxy. Like that's the first

944
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,479
Speaker 1: person we see her have a reaction to the depth

945
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 1: of it all. And so if we saw that that,

946
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it would have hurt anything, right, because

947
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 1: what that does. So when we see Catherine learned that

948
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: Johnny Boss is killed, she doesn't cry. She barely bats

949
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 1: an eyelash. She's just like, yeah, I guess I'm sad

950
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: because I liked fucking him. But when Roxy dies, she's sorry,

951
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: right iconic. When Roxy dies, she's noticeably upset, she's crying,

952
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: she's having what seems to be a genuine react. But

953
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: because we don't know anything about relationship with Roxy, and

954
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 1: because Catherine told thing is that she's very untrustworthy, we

955
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: don't know if these feelings she's displaying our genuine because

956
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: we don't have any information about Katherine and Roxy's relationship.

957
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: So it's which could be I mean, which I get

958
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: why that would be a noir writing, but I just

959
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: like I find it so ridiculous that you're supposed to

960
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: spend a lot of it's just like it's not just

961
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: like but you know how like the central quote unquote

962
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: mystery of the movie Doubt when it came out was

963
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 1: like do you think he did it? And you're like,

964
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 1: it's so obvious that the that the protagonist did the crime?

965
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 1: Why is that even the discussion like what about all

966
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: other ship going on? Right? So that's all confusing. And

967
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 1: then Beth is also revealed to be bisexual or by curious.

968
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: We learned that she had a sexual relationship with with

969
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: Katherine in college, and she's also similarly depicted as being untrustworthy.

970
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: And even though she might not have been the murderer

971
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: that we're led to believe she possibly was for a while,

972
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: she's still not forthcoming a lot about a lot of things.

973
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: She seems to be withholding a lot of information. You

974
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: could make the argument that, like, why would she divulge

975
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 1: her sexual orientation to her police colleagues. They're probably not

976
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 1: going to accept her if they learned that she is queer,

977
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: And she also seems to carry a lot of shame

978
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 1: about it too, because that and I feel like that

979
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 1: is almost like I guess maybe I talking this at

980
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 1: in real time. There's some kind of like gray area

981
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 1: where it felt like when the more she acknowledged that

982
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 1: she was ashamed of having any queer experience, the more

983
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 1: her kind of redemption arc started to swing back, or

984
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: it seemed like even but which is hard to say

985
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 1: because Catherine lives and Beth dies, so she is. I mean,

986
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: movies love to kill people named Beth. I'm just thinking

987
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: of little women. Um but but I so, I don't

988
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: know if that's that completely scance, but it does like

989
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:23,440
Speaker 1: she distances herself from any queer experience she's had as

990
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: much as possible, she tells. And I guess it's unclear

991
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,920
Speaker 1: because we only see her around Nick, who we can

992
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: tell wants her to do that, but she it does

993
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: seem like she's genuine when she tells him that whatever

994
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: that weird apartment they're always having sex at is her

995
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 1: apartment next to the aerobic studio. Of course it's just

996
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: like windows and you're like, yeah, sure, I'm sure a

997
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: police the officer makes this much money. But yeah, like

998
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: she she says that she's like embarrassed by it at

999
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: some point, and then her literal dying words I feel

1000
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: like she might as well be saying I was right,

1001
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: and then she dies, Like that was what I was

1002
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: getting from, because her dying words are looking Michael Douglas

1003
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 1: in the eye and saying I love you. Here's let

1004
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 1: me tell you my theory, because I've watched this movie

1005
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 1: maybe ten times in the past five years, and I

1006
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: I think that Catherine was obsessed with Beth and was

1007
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 1: playing the long game to like manipulate her ex boyfriend

1008
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: into killing her. And what that means is that Nick

1009
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: is sort of meaninglessly caught up in the crossfire of

1010
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 1: Catherine's obsession with Beth, and she's just going to like

1011
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 1: keep him alive a little while longer because he amuses

1012
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: her someone or something like that interesting. And now I

1013
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: mean he's and he's killed Beth now, so it's like, yeah,

1014
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 1: so why bother? I mean, she's got to do something

1015
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 1: with her time. There's that's interesting. Like I I didn't

1016
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: know what to make of that. I'm glad that you

1017
01:03:57,680 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 1: have a theory about it, because I didn't know what

1018
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: to make of at like, who's single white female? Who? Like?

1019
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 1: Because even in that is an implication that like, in

1020
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 1: order for two women to be interested in each other.

1021
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 1: They have to also be like stealing each other's identity,

1022
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: which is just so right, yes, of course, Like it's like, oh,

1023
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 1: you can't just be attracted to someone, you have to

1024
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 1: also want to wear their skin and like have their

1025
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: social Security number, which apparently was a very like potent idea. Ino.

1026
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: There's two movies where that's a major plot point. But

1027
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: even even when um Nick kills Beth, he like the

1028
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 1: last thing he says to her is inherently tied to

1029
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: his insecurities about her having had a queer experience, where

1030
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 1: he's like, I know about your husband, you still like girls, Beth,

1031
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 1: And then he kills her, like, and then she says

1032
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 1: I was straight, And then the movie is over. He's

1033
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: advancing on her with a gun and he's saying it

1034
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 1: as if it's evidence again that like he's going to

1035
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 1: have to shoot her, right, because maybe she's still likes girls. Right.

1036
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 1: It's like very overt, yeah, and so it's like it's

1037
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 1: only tragic that she dies because maybe she was straight. Like,

1038
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: it's just it's confused because she loved this horrible rapist

1039
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: who represents the shriveled ass of compulsory heterosexuality. Yeah, I

1040
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: mean it's like that is, well, let's did anyone have

1041
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: anyone else anything else to say about the depraved bisexual

1042
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 1: trope before we move into the next horror show that

1043
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 1: come right, I'll just add that and let me know

1044
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 1: if you think this has any merit. But I feel

1045
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: like this movie also villainizes ethical nonmonogamy in a in

1046
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: a way that like stereotypes about polyamory are on display

1047
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: and demonized in this movie because it seems to be that,

1048
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:03,960
Speaker 1: for example, Catherine and Roxy's relationship is ethically non monogamous

1049
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: because they are together, but Roxy knows about the various

1050
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 1: other people that Catherine is involved with, so they are

1051
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 1: in this ethically non monogamous relationship. But because they both

1052
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 1: end up being murderers, that's just another way in which

1053
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 1: polyamory is demonized. Right. It's the only relationship that I

1054
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 1: can exist between two murderers. Right. So I just wanted

1055
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 1: to point that out because I that's something I'd be

1056
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 1: interested in keeping my eye on more, because I feel

1057
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 1: like it's equating ethical non monogamy with with sexual deviant,

1058
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: non ethical promiscuity. Yeah, exactly right, Yeah, that's that is

1059
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 1: something that and it's like I feel like, I mean,

1060
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know when that term came into

1061
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 1: the zeite guys, but I would guess it was not right. Yeah,

1062
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 1: so I guess. I mean the last thing with Roxy,

1063
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,920
Speaker 1: we mentioned this, but like she's very much subject to

1064
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 1: the barrier gaze trope where, yeah, we don't know exactly

1065
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 1: like how she identified before they attribute a fit of

1066
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:14,040
Speaker 1: murderous rage and they kill her, but you know, there

1067
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 1: it is, which also doesn't make sense because like, if

1068
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 1: she wasn't the murderer who killed like Johnny bos, why

1069
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 1: is she? So I love the name Johnny. There are

1070
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:29,120
Speaker 1: some good fake nuts in this movie. Joe Astrohouse is

1071
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 1: a good bad screenwriter. Yeah, but according to Catherine, Roxy

1072
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 1: liked to watch Katherine have sex with men, right, And

1073
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 1: it didn't seem as though Roxy was harboring jealousy until

1074
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: Nick comes along, and then, for reasons that go unexplored,

1075
01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: Roxy's like, well, I'm jealous of Nick and I have

1076
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 1: to kill him by running him over with a car,

1077
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: But did you get the feeling? And then we, I know,

1078
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 1: we've got to move on, but like, but did you

1079
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: get the feeling? In bathroom confrontation between Roxy and Nick.

1080
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: It sort of sounded like maybe she didn't like watching

1081
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:10,120
Speaker 1: because she's she's just like I watched because like Catherine

1082
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,440
Speaker 1: tells me too. So it sort of sounded like maybe

1083
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 1: Roxy is getting kind of manipulated by Catherine as well.

1084
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 1: That's fair. I don't know. That was like a fleeting

1085
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:20,760
Speaker 1: moment that goes completely unexamined by the movie, So it's

1086
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 1: kind of a wash. But I sort of was like

1087
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 1: I felt for Roxy in that moment. If I was

1088
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:28,719
Speaker 1: like reading it correctly, I was like, Oh, that sucks,

1089
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 1: Like maybe she doesn't like even which would complicate things

1090
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 1: even more. But I wasn't. I wasn't sure. God boggles

1091
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:42,679
Speaker 1: the mind. Okay, there's still let's let's get the other

1092
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 1: difficult conversation out of the of the way here and

1093
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 1: talk about trigger warning again, talk about the way that

1094
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 1: sexual assault is portrayed in this movie. Again. I don't

1095
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:01,640
Speaker 1: know if I'm bring too much to it, but I

1096
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 1: was very conflicted about it. Same. So basically what happens

1097
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:12,120
Speaker 1: is there's a scene in which Nick goes home with Beth.

1098
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 1: They start to kiss. It seems to be consensual at first,

1099
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:23,960
Speaker 1: he gets more and more aggressive. She is saying no, repeatedly,

1100
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 1: he does not stop and proceeds to rape her, which

1101
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 1: we see on screen for several seconds, which apparently is

1102
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 1: in the director's cut but not the theatrical cut, which

1103
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 1: makes sense, And I'm glad. I'm kind of glad. I

1104
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 1: I I don't know because if I saw this movie,

1105
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:47,640
Speaker 1: in which I couldn't have, but if I did, like

1106
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 1: I know that, like the basic idea of being raped

1107
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 1: by someone you know and had already been intimate with

1108
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 1: was not like a common thing to be portrayed in movies.

1109
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 1: And I feel like even having that because we've talked

1110
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 1: about this on the show a bit jillion times where

1111
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:06,800
Speaker 1: it's like there's many many movies where the concept of

1112
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 1: rape and a rapist is like a stranger lurking in

1113
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,680
Speaker 1: the corner. It's like you don't know who it is.

1114
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 1: It's deeply traumatic, and then they're often too the night

1115
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:17,720
Speaker 1: and it's all very you know, night's dockery. Not to

1116
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 1: say that that doesn't happen, but it is overwhelmingly somebody

1117
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: that you already know and very possibly somebody you've already

1118
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:27,599
Speaker 1: been intimate with, And so I thought that that was

1119
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very very upsetting scene, and it

1120
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: feels so obviously like textbook rape. She says no, over

1121
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 1: and over and over. And then my read of this

1122
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: scene was that she had to protect her like she

1123
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: wasn't really able to fight back for her own safety.

1124
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 1: But then the way that that plays out throughout the

1125
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:53,080
Speaker 1: rest of the movie, I thought, like undercut very like

1126
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 1: common thing that happens to mostly women. So in in

1127
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 1: the aftermath, the immediate aftermath of that scene, Lucy Nick

1128
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 1: and Beth talking, she asks about Catherine. She mentions that

1129
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 1: she knew Catherine in college. Then she refers to the

1130
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:16,679
Speaker 1: encounter they just had, saying, you've never been like that before.

1131
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 1: Why and and he says, you know you're the shrink

1132
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 1: you tell me, and she says, you weren't making love.

1133
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 1: It's kind of open to interpretation what she means, Like,

1134
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: is she calling him out for forcing himself on her

1135
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,839
Speaker 1: and raping her? Or is the movie just not aware

1136
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 1: of what rape is like? It's to me, it's hard,

1137
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell Sarah, what's what's your take? I

1138
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 1: think that she's calling him out in the mildest possible way,

1139
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: as if he's like put his feet up on her

1140
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:51,320
Speaker 1: coffee table. So you know, it's it's I mean, you

1141
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:53,599
Speaker 1: can interpret that as her saying like that was rough.

1142
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:55,640
Speaker 1: I didn't like it. That was too rough for me,

1143
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 1: and that being all the understanding the filmmakers had of this,

1144
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 1: and I would totally buy that and like and then

1145
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:04,679
Speaker 1: maybe they do have more knowledge than that, but it's

1146
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:09,880
Speaker 1: not on display, right, Yeah, and then you know, she

1147
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:12,800
Speaker 1: continues trying to mother him for the rest of the movie,

1148
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:18,640
Speaker 1: and it's never discussed. I also think it's fascinating that

1149
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 1: this movie is taking so many cues from Vertigo, that

1150
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,920
Speaker 1: she's totally in the Barbara Bell Getties role and there's

1151
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 1: the same glasses. It's really Yeah, this movie didn't Dare

1152
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:35,599
Speaker 1: have two blonds. Yeah, she's very much Katherine is so

1153
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 1: stylized the way that and I haven't seen that movie

1154
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 1: in a long time, but yeah, there's there's a lot

1155
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:45,479
Speaker 1: of visual symmetry. Yeah, there's a movie that earned its

1156
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 1: overbearing score, right, a score that's really turning your head

1157
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 1: to what you're supposed to be thinking. I had a

1158
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 1: I had a So I was very mixed up on

1159
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: this subject, and so I wanted to know more about

1160
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 1: what the filmmakers. I was like, I assumed that they've

1161
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 1: been asked about this. I didn't get. I mean, I

1162
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 1: can't speak to the writer's intent, which I have like

1163
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:14,000
Speaker 1: a quick thing on him. And but just because like

1164
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 1: he's just a weird guy. But Verhoeven specifically has whatever

1165
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:23,120
Speaker 1: themes and things that he returns to in there's movies

1166
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 1: all the time, one of which is women being brutalized

1167
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 1: and sexually assaulted. So there was one press cycle and

1168
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:33,080
Speaker 1: again I'm like, I don't know what to feel about

1169
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 1: any of this. There's a press cycle from a movie

1170
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:40,080
Speaker 1: he did inten called l which I have not seen.

1171
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 1: I guess it's in French, where he was asked kind

1172
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:47,839
Speaker 1: of repeatedly about why this comes up in his movies

1173
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:52,120
Speaker 1: so frequently, and like what is it about this that

1174
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:55,519
Speaker 1: keeps coming up for him? And so this is from

1175
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 1: an interview in Slate from where he's basically just asked, like,

1176
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 1: wire women raped and brutalized in your movie so much?

1177
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 1: He says yeah, because of course, let's say, especially with

1178
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 1: the element of rape, if you look at the statistics,

1179
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,639
Speaker 1: they say someone is raped about eighteen hundred or nineteen

1180
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:14,479
Speaker 1: hundred times a day in the United States, So that

1181
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 1: means a rape a minute. If you express that violence,

1182
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:19,439
Speaker 1: then you can only express it in what it is.

1183
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 1: If you aren't honest about that, then I think that's

1184
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,880
Speaker 1: very dangerous because then it becomes banal. It makes it

1185
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 1: smaller than it is. It's really something where people are

1186
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 1: traumatized for the rest of their lives. Even the word

1187
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 1: sexual assault is already making it less than it is.

1188
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 1: I think the word rape expresses exactly what it is.

1189
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:38,719
Speaker 1: If you hear rape, you know you're talking about brutal

1190
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:41,640
Speaker 1: violence against women also men, of course, But if you

1191
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:45,080
Speaker 1: use sexual assault, that makes it softer. And so there

1192
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 1: is in general a feeling that I get in the

1193
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,800
Speaker 1: United States that it's very dangerous or very not done

1194
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 1: to use the word rape, which is replaced by sexual assault,

1195
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,560
Speaker 1: which I think I did, um five minutes ago. Um.

1196
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 1: But I'll have to say, I see what he's saying,

1197
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 1: but I like it's a matter of execution and making

1198
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:05,679
Speaker 1: sure that that is clearly telegraphed in the plot, which

1199
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 1: I think this movie fails at. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I

1200
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:11,599
Speaker 1: think that Show Girls actually does a much better job

1201
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:15,040
Speaker 1: of doing what he's saying here. In jest. I still

1202
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 1: I still haven't seen show girls. It's been a request

1203
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 1: for a million years. Yeah, we got it. We'll get

1204
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 1: to it. But it's tricky because I fundamentally agree with

1205
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 1: what he's saying. I just don't think that the execution

1206
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 1: is there in this movie. It's just hard to know

1207
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:31,679
Speaker 1: what the purpose of the scene is. It even has one.

1208
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 1: I don't think it does, like I I know, like

1209
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 1: what function. My My best guess is that because this

1210
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:45,719
Speaker 1: scene takes place right after Nick has gone to see

1211
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 1: Katherine in her home and she was being again very

1212
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 1: fem fatally. She was being very sultry and seductive, and

1213
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:56,640
Speaker 1: I think the movie is suggesting that he's starting to

1214
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 1: fall under her spell and he's getting really horny, and

1215
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 1: he goes and he takes out that horny nows on

1216
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 1: Beth because she's right there, and then it's doing the

1217
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:08,880
Speaker 1: thing where it's conflating her, who's like, as far as

1218
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:12,560
Speaker 1: we know, having lots of sexual adventures with people consensually.

1219
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 1: And he's like, I'm emulating you, Catherine, I'm raping my

1220
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 1: ex girlfriend. And it's like what, no, right, it's yeah,

1221
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 1: And it's like there there is this element yeah, of

1222
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: like all of Nick's bad behavior is like the subtext

1223
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 1: of it is like, and it's somehow Catherine's fault that

1224
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 1: he's doing all of this because she's infuriating him. She's

1225
01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:37,360
Speaker 1: frustrating him, she's like fucking with his head. She's making

1226
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 1: him drink again, she's making him smoke again, like right,

1227
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: Like it's it's somehow all of his behavior that we know,

1228
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:48,280
Speaker 1: that's the thing that blows my minys like that we

1229
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:53,479
Speaker 1: know predates his knowing her by a lot, Like so,

1230
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 1: but now he has the perfect person to blame everything on. Yeah, exactly.

1231
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 1: I also love how she's like superpowered for a woman.

1232
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,760
Speaker 1: Like they have a part where Nick is listing all

1233
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: of her assets basically, and he's like, she fox rock

1234
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:15,599
Speaker 1: stars and boxers, she has a hundred million dollars, she

1235
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 1: writes books, and she has a degree and messing with

1236
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 1: people's heads. And it's like, yeah, it seems like he

1237
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 1: finally found a worthy adversary, a woman who's got enough

1238
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: expansion packs to scare you. That's the Michael Douglas plot point.

1239
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 1: I guess, like it's so. And then there's other elements

1240
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 1: of Beth where it's like I just think that Beth

1241
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:47,080
Speaker 1: is such a like poorly developed character because really like

1242
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,760
Speaker 1: everything about her hinges on us, assuming that she still

1243
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 1: loves Nick no matter how awful he is in avoid

1244
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:58,400
Speaker 1: also like we don't get any insight into what from

1245
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:01,679
Speaker 1: her past might make her acted to someone so deeply talkic,

1246
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:04,320
Speaker 1: like what there's no attempt because it's like, you see,

1247
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 1: she's she's nagged for her profession in her first moments

1248
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:12,000
Speaker 1: on screen, and then she agrees with him where he's like,

1249
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:13,920
Speaker 1: this is bullshit and you know it. She's like, yeah,

1250
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 1: it's bullshit, but have a seat. You're like, that is

1251
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:21,760
Speaker 1: a funny way to start a therapy session, but we

1252
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 1: got to do it because you're being mandated to do this,

1253
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 1: not because you clearly need counseling. I hope her. I

1254
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 1: hope my therapist says that to me someday. I'm like,

1255
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 1: this is bullshit. She's like, yeah, but I sure I

1256
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 1: sure hoodwinked you out of a lot of money, didn't

1257
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 1: I also, do you guys love the moment where we

1258
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:42,960
Speaker 1: find out that Beth is supposed to have met, potentially

1259
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:46,759
Speaker 1: met Johnny Boss at a Christmas party that her office

1260
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 1: made his therapist through and it's like, of course, we're

1261
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 1: living in a world where therapists invite their patients to

1262
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:59,679
Speaker 1: their Christmas parties. There's no there's no ethical connection between

1263
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:02,680
Speaker 1: people bowl in in this movie. I also, I mean

1264
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,920
Speaker 1: that is always an element of like any Norrish movie

1265
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:08,200
Speaker 1: that I have fun with, where it's just like, even

1266
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:11,719
Speaker 1: when it's not necessary, everyone needs to have known each

1267
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:14,040
Speaker 1: other and met each other at some point, and sometimes

1268
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:17,560
Speaker 1: it's just like a weird stretch like that's not even necessary,

1269
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:20,760
Speaker 1: but just to establish as much suspicion as possible. It's

1270
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:23,680
Speaker 1: like maybe she a friend of a friend of a

1271
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:26,639
Speaker 1: friend of a friend in a Christmas party from could

1272
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 1: be you know, like it's just wild. It is so wild. Yeah.

1273
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:36,880
Speaker 1: Bottom line is the way I mean everything in this

1274
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 1: movie is executed is at best mind boggling, at worst

1275
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: extremely harmful. Because again with the rape scene, I think

1276
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 1: you can make the argument that the movie treats this

1277
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 1: as a consensual but you know, maybe more rough than

1278
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:56,960
Speaker 1: best is used to sex scene when in fact is

1279
01:19:57,080 --> 01:20:01,720
Speaker 1: rape because she is repeatedly saying and he ignores her,

1280
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 1: and then and then like you're saying, Sarah, she continues

1281
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:09,000
Speaker 1: to look after him and do anything that will support him.

1282
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:11,439
Speaker 1: For the remainder of the movie, and then he kills

1283
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:16,080
Speaker 1: her for having sex with a woman once twenty years ago. Yeah,

1284
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:20,760
Speaker 1: that that is I guess the legally prescribed penalty for that,

1285
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:27,120
Speaker 1: but you so rarely see it carried out. It is brutal.

1286
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: Like it's just brutal. Um. We must also talk about

1287
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:35,839
Speaker 1: the scene. The scene. The scene scene in which Sharon

1288
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:41,439
Speaker 1: Stone's volva is exposed, because Sharon Stone has spoken about

1289
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:46,280
Speaker 1: how she was misled by the director who told her

1290
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:52,320
Speaker 1: that it would not be visible on camera. There's an

1291
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:56,479
Speaker 1: article in Vanity Fair by Sharon Stone. It's an excerpt

1292
01:20:56,560 --> 01:21:00,240
Speaker 1: from her memoir The Beauty of Living Twice. The article

1293
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:02,680
Speaker 1: is called you Can't Shame Me Sharon Stone on how

1294
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 1: Basic Instinct nearly broke her before making her a star.

1295
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:11,880
Speaker 1: So she talks about this, and I'll just quote this article.

1296
01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 1: She says, quote after we shot Basic Instinct, I got

1297
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 1: called in to see it, not on my own with

1298
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 1: the director, as one would anticipate, but with a room

1299
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:24,759
Speaker 1: full of agents and lawyers, most of whom had nothing

1300
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 1: to do with the project. That was how I saw

1301
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:30,800
Speaker 1: my vagina shop for the first time, long after I've

1302
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 1: been told we can't see anything. I just need you

1303
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:37,559
Speaker 1: to remove your panties, as the white is reflecting the light,

1304
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:40,840
Speaker 1: so we know you have panties on. Yes, there have

1305
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 1: been many points of view on this topic, but since

1306
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,120
Speaker 1: I'm the one with the vagina in question, let me

1307
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:52,200
Speaker 1: say the other points of you are bullshit, Sharon. She says,

1308
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:56,000
Speaker 1: now here's the issue. It didn't now here's the issue.

1309
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:58,719
Speaker 1: It didn't matter anymore. It was me and my parts

1310
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 1: up there. I had to decisions to make. I went

1311
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:04,920
Speaker 1: to the projection booth, slapped Paul across the face, left,

1312
01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:07,400
Speaker 1: went to my car and called my lawyer, Marty Singer.

1313
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:10,160
Speaker 1: Marty told me they could not release the film as

1314
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:13,640
Speaker 1: it was, that I could get an injunction first. At

1315
01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:15,719
Speaker 1: that time, this would give the film an X rating.

1316
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 1: And Marty said, per the Screen Actors Guild, my union,

1317
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:22,679
Speaker 1: it wasn't legal to shoot up my dress in this fashion.

1318
01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:26,519
Speaker 1: Who I thought? Then Sharon goes on to say that

1319
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:30,240
Speaker 1: she gave it more consideration and tried to be objective

1320
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:34,120
Speaker 1: about it. And then I'm quoting again. After the screening,

1321
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:36,679
Speaker 1: I let Paul know of the options Marty had laid

1322
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:39,600
Speaker 1: out for me. Of course, he vehemently denied that I

1323
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,799
Speaker 1: had any choices at all, I was just an actress,

1324
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:46,000
Speaker 1: just a woman. What choices could I have? But I

1325
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,600
Speaker 1: did have choices, So I thought and thought, and I

1326
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: chose to allow this scene in the film. Why because

1327
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:54,120
Speaker 1: it was correct for the film and for the character,

1328
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:58,719
Speaker 1: and because after all, I did it unquote. So that's

1329
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:05,040
Speaker 1: and and I mean, Sharon Rocks, I like that is horrifying.

1330
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: Verhoven responded in denial that this had happened. But it's like,

1331
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 1: I very much believe Sharon, not just because I believe Sharon,

1332
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:17,920
Speaker 1: but also because she was already so disempowered in this

1333
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:21,160
Speaker 1: creative process and that was already so well established. Was

1334
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:24,720
Speaker 1: like that she was not being paid well, like she

1335
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:27,680
Speaker 1: was not being treated like an equal collaborator on the

1336
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 1: scale that you know certainly Michael Douglas was, or that

1337
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 1: a lot of people involved in this movie was were

1338
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:37,519
Speaker 1: So that totally scams for me. That it's like she

1339
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:43,120
Speaker 1: would be mistreated and her desire to not have to

1340
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:45,960
Speaker 1: flash her vagina on screen and also be like duped

1341
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:48,960
Speaker 1: into doing it would be something that they would try

1342
01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:51,040
Speaker 1: to get away with because they already got away with

1343
01:23:51,080 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 1: so much. And I think that there's that's that kind

1344
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:57,280
Speaker 1: of assumption from especially like in acting, but in a

1345
01:23:57,280 --> 01:24:00,320
Speaker 1: lot of industries where you're like quote unquote pay your

1346
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:03,519
Speaker 1: dues by being abused by someone who has more power

1347
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:06,880
Speaker 1: than you. Because in that same section, Sharon talks about

1348
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 1: how she felt like a lot a lot of the

1349
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:11,120
Speaker 1: odds were against her. She was not she was like

1350
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:14,760
Speaker 1: the twelve choice for this role. Michael Douglas didn't want

1351
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:16,719
Speaker 1: to work with her, Like there were all of these

1352
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:21,800
Speaker 1: things stacked against her, and then to be manipulated into like,

1353
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:26,000
Speaker 1: it's just it's so fucking bleak. I'm glad that she

1354
01:24:26,160 --> 01:24:31,280
Speaker 1: like got the last word on it, because yeah, it

1355
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 1: just it sucks that she just felt so disempowered to

1356
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:37,200
Speaker 1: the point where she's like, well, what choice do I

1357
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:39,519
Speaker 1: have but to just let this be in the movie,

1358
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:44,400
Speaker 1: because yeah, she She also describes in this article various

1359
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:50,920
Speaker 1: Hollywood horror stories producers and directors condescending to her, harassing her.

1360
01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:54,839
Speaker 1: Her manager at the time told her that she wouldn't

1361
01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:58,720
Speaker 1: get hired for a part like Basic Instinct because she

1362
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:03,680
Speaker 1: was not sexy or quote fukable. Um, she was she

1363
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:07,439
Speaker 1: always like. She also talks about how she was considered

1364
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:11,040
Speaker 1: to be difficult because she would speak out against being

1365
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:13,960
Speaker 1: mistreated and that she would like refuse to have sex

1366
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:16,960
Speaker 1: with her co star of a movie after a producer

1367
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:19,280
Speaker 1: suggested they have sex because it would give them better

1368
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:21,639
Speaker 1: on screen chemistry, and she said, no, I'm not going

1369
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:24,560
Speaker 1: to do that, and then she was labeled difficult by

1370
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:28,960
Speaker 1: people and all this kind of stuff. Um, but yeah,

1371
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:32,760
Speaker 1: I I completely believe Sharon. And there are just all

1372
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 1: these other examples of movies where the director misleads the actors,

1373
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:43,519
Speaker 1: often women, to get a particular shot or to get

1374
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:47,080
Speaker 1: a reaction that seems more genuine. There there I remember

1375
01:25:47,160 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 1: Kubrick and Shelley Duval. I feel like it's the most famous.

1376
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:54,559
Speaker 1: There was also, um a scene from them that movie

1377
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:57,760
Speaker 1: Last Tango in Paris. A story broke about that a

1378
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:01,640
Speaker 1: few years ago that really I forget specifically what it

1379
01:26:01,720 --> 01:26:03,400
Speaker 1: is and I'd have to go back and read it.

1380
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:07,240
Speaker 1: But a woman was assaulted as the camera was rolling

1381
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:10,720
Speaker 1: and was not told what was going to be happening

1382
01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:13,519
Speaker 1: in the middle of the scene so that the director

1383
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 1: could get like a genuine reaction out of her. It

1384
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:18,200
Speaker 1: was something I might have some details a little bit,

1385
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, I'd have to double check on some details,

1386
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:23,120
Speaker 1: but it was something along those lines, and so there's

1387
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:27,679
Speaker 1: there's various examples of actors and again especially women being

1388
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:32,320
Speaker 1: mistreated as cameras are rolling, being assaulted as cameras are rolling,

1389
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:35,880
Speaker 1: all this stuff happening without their knowledge or consent, just

1390
01:26:36,080 --> 01:26:40,840
Speaker 1: so this aw tour can like see his vision come

1391
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:44,200
Speaker 1: to life or whatever, you know, some bullshit excuse which

1392
01:26:44,240 --> 01:26:49,000
Speaker 1: is like not just abusive, it's like Sharon Stone is

1393
01:26:49,120 --> 01:26:52,759
Speaker 1: right there, like she collaborate with her. You've got fucking

1394
01:26:53,040 --> 01:27:00,599
Speaker 1: Sharon White. I hate it. It's awful. So justice for Sharon.

1395
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm very, very excited to read Sharon's book too. One

1396
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:07,519
Speaker 1: of the last things I have here in my notes

1397
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:10,479
Speaker 1: that again I feel like I'm only scratching the surface

1398
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:14,920
Speaker 1: of But um, you'll never believe it. But this is

1399
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:19,160
Speaker 1: another movie with mostly white people in the cast, which

1400
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:22,559
Speaker 1: is predictable. But like, also, this is San Francisco in

1401
01:27:22,600 --> 01:27:25,040
Speaker 1: the nineties, This is not like this is a very

1402
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:28,720
Speaker 1: diverse area. Yes, for fox sake, the few people of

1403
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:33,639
Speaker 1: color in the movie are minor characters with very few

1404
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:38,519
Speaker 1: lines of dialogue, no real narrative impact. They're relegated to

1405
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:43,719
Speaker 1: the sidelines, and all the major players are white people. Yeah,

1406
01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:47,320
Speaker 1: I feel like, ultimately, like this movie has got a

1407
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:52,959
Speaker 1: very weird legacy where there's plenty to talk about inside

1408
01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:54,920
Speaker 1: of it, but mostly it's the kind of movie where

1409
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:59,679
Speaker 1: people mostly take away uh single shot versus at any

1410
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:01,800
Speaker 1: sort of like it doesn't seem like this movie, even

1411
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:05,320
Speaker 1: though there's like all of this like very era specific

1412
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:09,959
Speaker 1: history involved. People mostly just remember a scene where Sharon

1413
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 1: Stone was being coerced into doing something she didn't want

1414
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:17,439
Speaker 1: to do and it was hailed as the sexiest thing

1415
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:20,639
Speaker 1: ever committed to film. There's also a there's a good

1416
01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:24,120
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair piece about sort of how that shot and

1417
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:29,200
Speaker 1: like the scene had a an impact on um porn

1418
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 1: for decades after that, and like the ripple effect of

1419
01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:36,839
Speaker 1: that scene alone is significant. I think the ripple effect

1420
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:40,519
Speaker 1: of like the unexamined biphobia in this movie. Uh, this

1421
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:43,200
Speaker 1: is a very influential movie. Like the stuff that they

1422
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:47,559
Speaker 1: got wrong here did carry on for for some time.

1423
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:52,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a tricky one. Do you guys want

1424
01:28:52,200 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 1: to know all the actresses that turned down the role

1425
01:28:54,520 --> 01:28:57,840
Speaker 1: of Catherine? Do I? Ever? Yeah? I I also have

1426
01:28:57,920 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 1: this list. So I'm gonna put forward two guesses, And

1427
01:29:01,400 --> 01:29:03,759
Speaker 1: by guesses, I mean I think I kind of remember

1428
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:07,559
Speaker 1: this list. Okay, wait, let me guess a few. Jodie Foster,

1429
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:13,679
Speaker 1: Michelle Phiffer, Kelly McGillis, Michelle Phiffers, one, Meg Ryan, Meg

1430
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:23,640
Speaker 1: Ryan one, Wow, Killia Roberts, Yes, whoa Okay, Kim Basinger

1431
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:29,720
Speaker 1: was Michael Douglas's pick. She said no, Gretta Scotchy who that.

1432
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:31,200
Speaker 1: I'm not sure who that is. That was like the

1433
01:29:31,240 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 1: one day Miles my British. I think Gina Davis said

1434
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:39,920
Speaker 1: no fucking way. Kathleen Turner said no way, Kelly Lynch,

1435
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:42,559
Speaker 1: I don't know who that is. Ellen Barkin said no,

1436
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:47,800
Speaker 1: maryel Hemingway said no. And I guess Demi Moore was considered,

1437
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 1: but I don't know if she was ever asked. And

1438
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 1: as you alluded to, Jamie, Michael Douglas was really reluctant

1439
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:58,400
Speaker 1: to work with Sharon Stone because she didn't have any

1440
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:00,280
Speaker 1: star power at the time. This was before where she

1441
01:30:00,439 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 1: this movie made her a star. And also she was like,

1442
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:07,639
Speaker 1: this is my star power, bitch, right, So Michael Douglas

1443
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:11,200
Speaker 1: didn't want to work with her because she wasn't in

1444
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:15,040
Speaker 1: a list celebrity at that point, and he was like, well,

1445
01:30:15,080 --> 01:30:18,840
Speaker 1: I'm an A list or, and if this movie is

1446
01:30:18,880 --> 01:30:21,720
Speaker 1: received poorly, I need to have another A list or

1447
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 1: to take the fall so that all the blame doesn't

1448
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:26,519
Speaker 1: get on me. Like I'm not taking the only l

1449
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:29,559
Speaker 1: on this movie that might suck, which I get, but

1450
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:34,880
Speaker 1: it's like, come on, Sharon, Sharon, Sharon, get a grip.

1451
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:40,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's really about all I had

1452
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:46,280
Speaker 1: written down. Lease, does anyone have any other thoughts about

1453
01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:49,519
Speaker 1: the film? I mean, I'm gonna go on this movie forever,

1454
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:53,639
Speaker 1: but I'm going to say no. I guess I will

1455
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:57,920
Speaker 1: say that ultimately, I am pro Sharon Stone, and I'm

1456
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:00,639
Speaker 1: happy that this movie created a launch add for her

1457
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:04,360
Speaker 1: to do more of what she wanted to in the world.

1458
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:09,040
Speaker 1: And I think it belongs to a museum. I mean,

1459
01:31:09,080 --> 01:31:11,760
Speaker 1: it has that going for it. It really expresses like

1460
01:31:11,800 --> 01:31:15,720
Speaker 1: a lot of the fear around gender roles in the

1461
01:31:15,760 --> 01:31:20,519
Speaker 1: early nineties and sort of the way that heteronormativity was

1462
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:25,160
Speaker 1: responding to the lightest prodding. Yeah, I'm happy that we're

1463
01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:32,920
Speaker 1: all equally speachless about it. Yeah, I'm ultimately, like, I

1464
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:39,400
Speaker 1: don't know a lot of bad stuff going on. I Yeah,

1465
01:31:39,439 --> 01:31:42,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like the legacy of this movie

1466
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:45,400
Speaker 1: is kind of like net in terms of like the

1467
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:49,840
Speaker 1: tropes that like really really continued or popularized. It's got

1468
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 1: kind of a net negative effect. But how much of

1469
01:31:52,960 --> 01:31:56,000
Speaker 1: that isn't It's just all very messy. We've spent two

1470
01:31:56,040 --> 01:31:58,519
Speaker 1: hours talking about it and I still have no fucking

1471
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 1: clue how I feel. Um. But does it pass the fact?

1472
01:32:05,200 --> 01:32:09,599
Speaker 1: I don't think so. The two women do interact when

1473
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:12,839
Speaker 1: Roxy and Katherine kiss each other a couple of times,

1474
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:16,400
Speaker 1: and it's implied they were having a conversation that Michael

1475
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:18,920
Speaker 1: Douglas walks into, but we don't actually hear any of

1476
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:21,840
Speaker 1: their dialogue, and then Roxy walks away, so we never

1477
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,200
Speaker 1: see them actually speak on screen. And I think those

1478
01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:28,679
Speaker 1: are the only two women who interact in the whole movie.

1479
01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:32,719
Speaker 1: There's Hazel Dopkins and Katherine, but I don't see them

1480
01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:35,680
Speaker 1: talking to each other either. No, there's a lot of

1481
01:32:35,720 --> 01:32:38,320
Speaker 1: scenes where there's a kiss and no dialogue, or a

1482
01:32:38,360 --> 01:32:41,840
Speaker 1: boob squish and no dialogue, or I think there might

1483
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:46,599
Speaker 1: be one part where Katherine says something to uh, wait,

1484
01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:50,479
Speaker 1: what's her name, Hazel, and she calls her honey. She says, honey,

1485
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:53,400
Speaker 1: I'll be right with you, or something, but then Hazel

1486
01:32:53,439 --> 01:32:56,559
Speaker 1: doesn't respond, you know, things like that. So there afore

1487
01:32:56,680 --> 01:33:00,000
Speaker 1: women in this movie, and they're all convicted or potential murderers.

1488
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:04,000
Speaker 1: I mean I do honestly, I like that. I think

1489
01:33:04,040 --> 01:33:09,479
Speaker 1: that's absolutely ridiculous. And yes, this movie is a net negative.

1490
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:12,479
Speaker 1: And yet the fact that all of the female characters

1491
01:33:12,479 --> 01:33:14,599
Speaker 1: in this movie who have any kind of impact are

1492
01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 1: actual or probable murderers is kind of amazing. You don't

1493
01:33:20,000 --> 01:33:22,320
Speaker 1: kept that a lot. I do it Like it's like

1494
01:33:22,120 --> 01:33:25,639
Speaker 1: the camp element is hard to deny with this movie.

1495
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:28,519
Speaker 1: It's like it's hard to there. I wanted to give

1496
01:33:28,520 --> 01:33:31,000
Speaker 1: a quick shout out to the women who plays Hazel,

1497
01:33:31,720 --> 01:33:36,360
Speaker 1: who's an oscar winning actress, Dorothy Malone. Hello Dorothy. Yeah,

1498
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 1: this basic Instinct was her last on screen appearance before

1499
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:43,240
Speaker 1: she died. But she she before she retired, Sorry because

1500
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:45,439
Speaker 1: she she just died a couple of years ago. But

1501
01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:49,920
Speaker 1: she's in the big sleep. She won an oscar in

1502
01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 1: ninety six for a movie called Written on the Wind,

1503
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:55,680
Speaker 1: which I've never heard of, but she she won an

1504
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:59,479
Speaker 1: oscar the Hudson Fantastic and then she was a big

1505
01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:02,520
Speaker 1: success on TV. She was on Peyton Place in the sixties.

1506
01:34:02,640 --> 01:34:07,040
Speaker 1: So it turns out she was a terrifically successful actor

1507
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,920
Speaker 1: and this was her last movie, So shout out Dorothy Malone.

1508
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:13,320
Speaker 1: Sorry you didn't get I don't think a single line

1509
01:34:13,360 --> 01:34:17,320
Speaker 1: of dialogue. Really. I think she called him a shooter once,

1510
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:19,800
Speaker 1: so yeah, she's like, oh, you're the shooter, aren't you.

1511
01:34:20,080 --> 01:34:22,679
Speaker 1: And then but sorry, you didn't get a whole scene.

1512
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 1: Like imagine being an Oscar winning actress and they're like, um,

1513
01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:31,040
Speaker 1: you're essentially a glorified extra. Yeah, so have fun with

1514
01:34:31,080 --> 01:34:34,320
Speaker 1: that and uh, you know, make your own movie. I

1515
01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:40,639
Speaker 1: guess there, which which brings us to our rating system,

1516
01:34:41,040 --> 01:34:46,160
Speaker 1: the nipple scale zero to five nipples, based on how

1517
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:53,160
Speaker 1: the movie fares looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens. Well,

1518
01:34:54,040 --> 01:35:01,680
Speaker 1: even though there are things that are arguably reclaimable about specifically,

1519
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:06,360
Speaker 1: I would say Sharon Stone's character, I'm just not in

1520
01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:10,519
Speaker 1: a place where I feel fully comfortable doing that, although

1521
01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:14,160
Speaker 1: isolating a few lines of her monologues where she's like,

1522
01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 1: I like fucking, I like men who give me pleasure.

1523
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:24,040
Speaker 1: I like fingers and hands. I want to just like

1524
01:35:24,280 --> 01:35:29,280
Speaker 1: tweet that out is like red classic sex fingers in hand.

1525
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:32,400
Speaker 1: I want her to get together with Wayne Knight. I

1526
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:35,880
Speaker 1: like it when she tells the cops she says something

1527
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:39,439
Speaker 1: like I don't feel like talking anymore, so unless you're

1528
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:42,000
Speaker 1: going to arrest me, you can get the funk out

1529
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:46,400
Speaker 1: of here, and they're like, I can't argue with that, okay,

1530
01:35:46,520 --> 01:35:48,320
Speaker 1: so we got to get the funk out of here.

1531
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:50,760
Speaker 1: I love it when she's like, what are you gonna do?

1532
01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:54,880
Speaker 1: Was smoking and they're like, well, dog got it. She's

1533
01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:57,400
Speaker 1: because stopped us right in our tracks. We don't know

1534
01:35:57,439 --> 01:36:00,160
Speaker 1: what to say to that. Another another thing that is

1535
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:05,519
Speaker 1: spoofed in Hotshots part do so I gotta And I

1536
01:36:05,560 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 1: also like the moment, like there's just certain moments where

1537
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:11,920
Speaker 1: it's like she's being villainized, but also her reaction to

1538
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:17,200
Speaker 1: anything that is like a suggestion of typical heterosexual domesticity

1539
01:36:17,320 --> 01:36:21,559
Speaker 1: results in her getting angry or violent, which I kind

1540
01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:23,800
Speaker 1: of do. Like that scene at the end where he's like,

1541
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:26,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, we're gonna fucking pop out a couple

1542
01:36:26,240 --> 01:36:28,280
Speaker 1: of kids and get married, and her response is to

1543
01:36:28,479 --> 01:36:31,880
Speaker 1: like clutch an ice pick, like that's kind of cool,

1544
01:36:32,080 --> 01:36:34,920
Speaker 1: Like there he goes, we can fuck like minx, have

1545
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:37,960
Speaker 1: a few rug rats and live happily ever after. And

1546
01:36:37,960 --> 01:36:40,600
Speaker 1: then she's like, she's like, I hate rug Rats and

1547
01:36:40,600 --> 01:36:43,320
Speaker 1: then she's like clearly fondling her ice pick, ready to

1548
01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:46,519
Speaker 1: like stab him. And then he's like, forget the rug Rats,

1549
01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:49,120
Speaker 1: we can just funck like Minx and live happily ever after.

1550
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:51,519
Speaker 1: And then she takes her hands off the ice pick

1551
01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:54,000
Speaker 1: because apparently she was going to kill him if he

1552
01:36:54,080 --> 01:36:57,439
Speaker 1: wanted to have children with her, which is kind of

1553
01:36:58,040 --> 01:37:00,519
Speaker 1: who wants kids? But that like that's a cool moment.

1554
01:37:00,560 --> 01:37:02,400
Speaker 1: I don't know how boy, he would not be a

1555
01:37:02,400 --> 01:37:04,800
Speaker 1: good dad. I bet she's going to kill him like

1556
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:07,000
Speaker 1: four days later, right, because do you feel like he's

1557
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:11,040
Speaker 1: on condition of not making her board right his day?

1558
01:37:11,120 --> 01:37:14,920
Speaker 1: His days are extremely numbered. I feel like it's very clear.

1559
01:37:15,720 --> 01:37:19,599
Speaker 1: But inter Caitlin was he'sier, what is your rating for? Okay?

1560
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:23,000
Speaker 1: So even though there are things, they're very isolated things

1561
01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:27,240
Speaker 1: I like about the character of Catherine Trammel and Sharon

1562
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:31,479
Speaker 1: Stone's performance, I would say, overall, like you said, Sarah,

1563
01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:37,080
Speaker 1: this is a net negative movie between the villainizing of

1564
01:37:37,479 --> 01:37:44,760
Speaker 1: a woman's sexuality being open and liberated between the depraved

1565
01:37:44,840 --> 01:37:51,800
Speaker 1: bisexual trope. Because like gosh By, Visibility was extremely low

1566
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:55,880
Speaker 1: and still is. But in the early nineties it was

1567
01:37:56,200 --> 01:37:59,120
Speaker 1: basically absent, and if it was there, it was being

1568
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:03,720
Speaker 1: villainized in very harmful ways, much like what Basic Instinct does.

1569
01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:09,200
Speaker 1: So there's all these harmful things that the movie does. Um.

1570
01:38:09,280 --> 01:38:14,160
Speaker 1: And it is too long. Um. But the score is

1571
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:24,600
Speaker 1: memorable and the plot is convoluted and um. According to

1572
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:29,040
Speaker 1: this movie, all women are murderers and they will have

1573
01:38:29,080 --> 01:38:31,920
Speaker 1: no motive. They will just decide to murder, I mean,

1574
01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 1: for no reason. Okay, UM, So I'm going to give

1575
01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:40,400
Speaker 1: the movie with all that in mind, I'll give it

1576
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:48,960
Speaker 1: one nipple, and I'll give it to Sharon Stones nipple

1577
01:38:49,400 --> 01:38:53,599
Speaker 1: which we see many times. And it's a great one too.

1578
01:38:54,200 --> 01:38:57,320
Speaker 1: There's two. There's two of them. There's two of them. Uh,

1579
01:38:57,800 --> 01:38:59,679
Speaker 1: I guess I'll match you there. I feel like ice.

1580
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:04,400
Speaker 1: I see why some of the camp here, isolated moments

1581
01:39:04,400 --> 01:39:06,840
Speaker 1: are reclaimed. And I also had a lot of fun

1582
01:39:06,880 --> 01:39:12,360
Speaker 1: and really appreciated that. Also, you know, there's I don't

1583
01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:14,400
Speaker 1: think I have anything new to new to add. I

1584
01:39:14,640 --> 01:39:17,800
Speaker 1: think that I'm gonna meet you at one and I'm

1585
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:23,479
Speaker 1: going to give my nipple to um Hazel because she

1586
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:28,880
Speaker 1: should have had more lines or lines true, Sarah, I

1587
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:31,160
Speaker 1: am also going to give it one nipple, and I'm

1588
01:39:31,160 --> 01:39:33,320
Speaker 1: going to give it to Sharon Stone, so now she

1589
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:39,000
Speaker 1: has three nipples. And yeah, because I think she's just great.

1590
01:39:39,160 --> 01:39:41,559
Speaker 1: And at this point, I've seen this movie enough times

1591
01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:43,720
Speaker 1: that I can guess kind of enjoy the idea of

1592
01:39:43,760 --> 01:39:48,840
Speaker 1: this like freewheeling murderer who likes to go around announcing

1593
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:52,840
Speaker 1: herself as a murderer to men who just continually are like, what, no,

1594
01:39:53,160 --> 01:39:57,000
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I'll be fine. I'm different. And

1595
01:39:57,320 --> 01:39:59,879
Speaker 1: how that just is what she does for a hobby apparent.

1596
01:40:00,280 --> 01:40:04,720
Speaker 1: I think that's interesting. I love that for her. I know,

1597
01:40:04,800 --> 01:40:07,679
Speaker 1: I'm like, you have a hundred ten million dollars, We've

1598
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:11,080
Speaker 1: got to find another place for you to put this energy. Girl,

1599
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:15,080
Speaker 1: Like there's she could be doing so much like a magazine.

1600
01:40:15,479 --> 01:40:17,439
Speaker 1: I was kind of hoping I wasn't able to find one,

1601
01:40:17,479 --> 01:40:19,600
Speaker 1: but you know how like sometimes when there's like a

1602
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:22,920
Speaker 1: famous writer in a like oh, Gone Girl is a

1603
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:25,800
Speaker 1: good example, the fake book and Gone Girl was a

1604
01:40:25,840 --> 01:40:28,840
Speaker 1: real book that was sold like amazing amy, And I

1605
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 1: was hoping that Catherine's books, like the fake novelizations of

1606
01:40:33,120 --> 01:40:35,599
Speaker 1: the Katherine Trammel books were somewhere, but I wasn't able

1607
01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:38,000
Speaker 1: to find them. That would have been amazing. It's not

1608
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:41,280
Speaker 1: too late to hire one of us two ghost right then? Well, yeah,

1609
01:40:41,479 --> 01:40:46,120
Speaker 1: I know my next project. Well, Sarah, thank you so

1610
01:40:46,200 --> 01:40:49,600
Speaker 1: much for joining us, Thank you so much, Thank you

1611
01:40:49,680 --> 01:40:56,639
Speaker 1: for exploring this. This is strange, beast, this is really fun.

1612
01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:00,680
Speaker 1: Thank you for bringing us this movie. I'm glad that

1613
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:04,320
Speaker 1: we talked about it. And you know, hopefully if you

1614
01:41:04,479 --> 01:41:08,200
Speaker 1: are a listener watching this movie, you're just as confused

1615
01:41:08,240 --> 01:41:13,280
Speaker 1: as we are. Uh, Sarah, Where can people check out

1616
01:41:13,280 --> 01:41:17,800
Speaker 1: your stuff? Follow you on social media? Plug away, you

1617
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:20,080
Speaker 1: can hear me and You're wrong about and you can

1618
01:41:20,200 --> 01:41:25,160
Speaker 1: also hear me on You Are Good and other podcasts

1619
01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:29,720
Speaker 1: from time to time. And I'm trying to not use

1620
01:41:30,160 --> 01:41:34,000
Speaker 1: social media so much, so I find me there if

1621
01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:40,559
Speaker 1: you must, but I shan't encourage you. Perfect. You can

1622
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:45,719
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter and Instagram, which you know what,

1623
01:41:46,160 --> 01:41:49,160
Speaker 1: I'd encourage it, but you don't have to do whatever

1624
01:41:49,200 --> 01:41:51,240
Speaker 1: you want. Sometimes we get stressed out and we don't

1625
01:41:51,320 --> 01:41:53,000
Speaker 1: check it, so I don't get mad if we don't

1626
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:57,120
Speaker 1: reply right away, right, But yeah, you can follow us

1627
01:41:57,160 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 1: there at Bechtel cast. You can also subscribe to our

1628
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:06,240
Speaker 1: We would definitely encourage this. Subscribing to our Matreon at

1629
01:42:06,360 --> 01:42:09,559
Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash backtel Cast. It gets you too

1630
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 1: bonus episodes every month plus access to the whole back

1631
01:42:13,160 --> 01:42:17,240
Speaker 1: catalog of bonuses, and it is five dollars per month.

1632
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:20,120
Speaker 1: And you can also get merch at t public dot

1633
01:42:20,120 --> 01:42:22,680
Speaker 1: com slash the PacTel Cast if that's something that you

1634
01:42:23,200 --> 01:42:30,120
Speaker 1: are in the mood to do. And with that, I

1635
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:32,240
Speaker 1: want to say, wait, what is that line again? I

1636
01:42:33,120 --> 01:42:37,439
Speaker 1: the my favorite line in the movie that Magnicum Laude pussy, Yes,

1637
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:42,720
Speaker 1: Friday up your brain. Let's um, let's take our Magnicum

1638
01:42:42,760 --> 01:42:49,840
Speaker 1: Laude Pussy's out of Bye bye bye