WEBVTT - Revisionist History Presents: The Limits of Power 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.116 Pushkin. Hey everyone, this is justin Richmond. We were all 0:00:23.156 --> 0:00:25.636 set to bring you a conversation between Rick Rubin and 0:00:25.716 --> 0:00:27.916 Rizzard today that we tapped a couple of weeks ago, 0:00:29.116 --> 0:00:32.996 but in light of the heaviness of the last week 0:00:33.516 --> 0:00:36.636 and what's going on this week, we figured it'd be 0:00:36.636 --> 0:00:40.436 best to hold that at least until next week. The 0:00:40.556 --> 0:00:44.516 music industry is doing something called blackout Tuesday, where a 0:00:44.516 --> 0:00:47.116 lot of people are refusing to do business as a 0:00:47.196 --> 0:00:50.876 symbol of not wanting to go on with business as usual. 0:00:51.276 --> 0:00:55.876 And even though it's a podcast, we're only really music adjacent. 0:00:56.396 --> 0:00:58.436 Ricks involved in the music industry of course, and the 0:00:58.516 --> 0:01:01.476 artists we have on or involved, and we just figured 0:01:02.156 --> 0:01:04.276 it'd be best to take a week off and do 0:01:04.436 --> 0:01:09.236 some deeper thinking. We did think instead of just not 0:01:09.356 --> 0:01:13.676 running something, we would bring you something from our other host, 0:01:13.796 --> 0:01:17.876 Malcolm Gladwell, who's written about policing a lot throughout his career, 0:01:18.156 --> 0:01:21.756 and he had a chapter in his book, David and 0:01:21.796 --> 0:01:24.716 Goliath that he really wanted to share with you guys, 0:01:25.036 --> 0:01:28.356 and we hope that you get a chance to listen 0:01:28.596 --> 0:01:33.196 and makes you think whatever you think you know that 0:01:33.276 --> 0:01:37.516 it just maybe adds to the dialogue that's going on 0:01:37.596 --> 0:01:41.236 right now, and we'll be back with the Rizzard from 0:01:41.276 --> 0:01:44.436 Mutang next week talking to Rick and we hope you 0:01:44.476 --> 0:01:46.836 guys all stay safe in the meantime, and we appreciate 0:01:46.876 --> 0:01:51.676 you guys, and yeah, we'll be back next week. Enjoy 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:56.236 this chapter from Malcolm's book, David and Goliath. Here's Malcolm. 0:01:56.716 --> 0:02:00.636 Hello there, Malcolm Gladwell here. Many people have spoken up 0:02:00.676 --> 0:02:03.956 over the last few days, very eloquently about the tragic 0:02:03.996 --> 0:02:06.196 death of George Floyd at the hands of a police 0:02:06.196 --> 0:02:09.996 officer in Minneapolis. It says something about the country we 0:02:10.036 --> 0:02:12.436 live in with the most powerful things I've heard of 0:02:12.476 --> 0:02:15.436 come from mayors and preachers and rappers and talk show 0:02:15.476 --> 0:02:19.316 hosts and countless ordinary people on Twitter while the White 0:02:19.316 --> 0:02:22.196 House turned off its lights and the President hid in 0:02:22.236 --> 0:02:27.996 an underground bunker. Sometimes words fail me. As those of 0:02:28.036 --> 0:02:30.236 you who have followed my career now, I've been writing 0:02:30.236 --> 0:02:32.916 and thinking about race and policing for a very long time. 0:02:33.316 --> 0:02:36.156 The final chapter of my second book, Blink, was about 0:02:36.156 --> 0:02:38.956 the forty one shots fired at a young African immigrant 0:02:39.276 --> 0:02:42.636 named Amadu Diallo by New York City police officers in 0:02:42.716 --> 0:02:46.116 nineteen ninety nine. As he stood on his front porch 0:02:46.836 --> 0:02:48.956 and reached for his wallet to show them his ID. 0:02:50.316 --> 0:02:53.156 My latest book, Talking to Strangers, starts and ends with 0:02:53.196 --> 0:02:57.036 the tragic encounter between a young African American woman, Sandra Bland, 0:02:57.436 --> 0:03:00.836 and a highway patrolman on the streets of Prairie View, Texas. 0:03:01.676 --> 0:03:03.596 So I wanted to add my voice to the chorus 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:06.796 and share some of that work. And what I decided 0:03:06.796 --> 0:03:09.196 on is a portion of the audiobook version of I 0:03:09.196 --> 0:03:12.796 booked David and Goliath. It was published in twenty thirteen, 0:03:13.556 --> 0:03:15.716 and this chapter is about a riot that took place 0:03:15.756 --> 0:03:19.836 in Belfast, in Northern Ireland. It's about a situation from 0:03:20.036 --> 0:03:23.436 miles away and many years ago, and about the divisions 0:03:23.476 --> 0:03:26.396 of religion and class, and not the divisions of race. 0:03:27.316 --> 0:03:29.516 But sometimes I think it's useful to take a step 0:03:29.556 --> 0:03:34.116 back and consider policing in a broader context. What happened 0:03:34.276 --> 0:03:36.996 in Northern Ireland fifty years ago and what is happening 0:03:37.036 --> 0:03:39.196 now on the streets of the United States are not 0:03:39.276 --> 0:03:43.276 all that different. The core question in both is if 0:03:43.356 --> 0:03:46.436 you have power, what does it mean to use it wisely? 0:03:47.316 --> 0:03:51.196 And what are the consequences if you don't. So here 0:03:51.276 --> 0:03:55.196 we go from David and Goliathe Chapter seven, Rosemary Lawler. 0:03:56.396 --> 0:03:59.996 When the troubles began in Northern Ireland. Rosemary Lawler was 0:03:59.996 --> 0:04:03.036 a newly wed. She and her husband had just bought 0:04:03.076 --> 0:04:06.676 a house in Belfast. They had a baby. It was 0:04:06.716 --> 0:04:11.036 a summer of nineteen sixty nine. Catholics and Protestants, the 0:04:11.116 --> 0:04:14.276 two religious communities that have lived uneasily alongside each other 0:04:14.356 --> 0:04:18.076 throughout the country's history, or at each other's throat. They 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:23.036 were bombings and riots. Gangs of Protestant militants, loyalists, as 0:04:23.076 --> 0:04:27.316 they were called, roam the streets, burning down houses. The 0:04:27.396 --> 0:04:30.676 Lawlers were Catholic, and Catholics have always been a minority 0:04:30.676 --> 0:04:35.316 in Northern Ireland. Every day they grew more frightened. I'd 0:04:35.316 --> 0:04:37.716 come home at night, Lawlers said, and they would be 0:04:37.836 --> 0:04:41.596 riding on the door tags out. Tags is a derogatory 0:04:41.676 --> 0:04:46.116 word for an Irish Catholic, or no pope here. Another 0:04:46.236 --> 0:04:48.676 night we were there. We were very lucky. A bomb 0:04:48.716 --> 0:04:51.796 came into the back yard and didn't explode. One day 0:04:51.796 --> 0:04:53.756 I went to knock on my neighbor's door and I 0:04:53.796 --> 0:04:56.436 realized she was gone. I found out that day that 0:04:56.556 --> 0:04:59.156 a lot of people had gone So when my husband, 0:04:59.236 --> 0:05:01.436 Terry came home from work, I said, Terry, what's going 0:05:01.476 --> 0:05:05.516 on here? And he said, we're in danger. We left 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:08.636 the home that night. We had no phone. You remember 0:05:08.796 --> 0:05:12.196 this in the days before mobiles. We walked out. The 0:05:12.316 --> 0:05:15.276 fear was in me. I put my son in his pram. 0:05:15.556 --> 0:05:17.956 I guided up best we could pieces of clothes for 0:05:18.036 --> 0:05:20.436 him and ourselves. There was a tray at the bottom 0:05:20.436 --> 0:05:22.196 of the pram and we stuffed them all in the tray. 0:05:22.516 --> 0:05:25.476 And Terry says to me, right, Rosy, We're going to 0:05:25.556 --> 0:05:28.716 walk straight out of here, I'm going to smile at everybody. 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:32.796 I was trembling. I was a teenage mom, a teenage 0:05:32.836 --> 0:05:35.756 girl who got married, nineteen married, new baby, new world, 0:05:35.796 --> 0:05:38.396 new life taken away from me like that, do you know? 0:05:38.996 --> 0:05:41.556 And I have no power to stop it. Fear is 0:05:41.596 --> 0:05:45.716 an awful thing, and I remember being really, really scared. 0:05:47.036 --> 0:05:50.356 The safest place they knew was the all Catholic neighborhood 0:05:50.356 --> 0:05:54.356 of Bala Murphy in West Belfast, where Lawlor's parents lived. 0:05:54.876 --> 0:05:57.876 But they had no car, and with Belfast and turmoil, 0:05:58.196 --> 0:06:01.836 no taxi wanted to venture into a Catholic neighborhood. Finally, 0:06:01.876 --> 0:06:04.596 they tricked a cabin to stopping by, saying their baby 0:06:04.636 --> 0:06:07.636 was sick and needed to get to a hospital. They 0:06:07.636 --> 0:06:10.476 shut the car door and Terry told the driver, I 0:06:10.596 --> 0:06:13.916 want you to take us to Balamurphy. The driver said, 0:06:13.956 --> 0:06:16.316 oh no, I'm not doing that. But Terry had a 0:06:16.356 --> 0:06:18.636 poker and he took it out and he placed the 0:06:18.676 --> 0:06:21.436 point against the back of the driver's neck and said, 0:06:21.796 --> 0:06:24.836 you're going to take us. The cab driver drove them 0:06:24.836 --> 0:06:27.716 to the edge of Balamurphy and stopped. I don't care 0:06:27.756 --> 0:06:29.636 if you stick that in me. He said, I'm not 0:06:29.716 --> 0:06:33.436 going any further. The Lawlers gathered up their baby and 0:06:33.556 --> 0:06:38.516 their worldly possessions and ran for their lives. At the 0:06:38.556 --> 0:06:43.076 beginning of nineteen seventy, things got worse. That Easter, there 0:06:43.116 --> 0:06:46.396 was a ride in Balamurphy. The British Army was called in. 0:06:46.596 --> 0:06:49.196 A fleet of armored cars with barbed wire on their 0:06:49.196 --> 0:06:53.116 bumpers patrolled the streets. Lawler would push her pram pass 0:06:53.196 --> 0:06:57.716 soldiers with automatic rifles and tear gas grenades. One weekend 0:06:57.756 --> 0:07:00.716 in June, there was a gun battle in the Boordering neighborhood. 0:07:01.076 --> 0:07:03.396 A group of Catholic gunmen stepped into the middle of 0:07:03.396 --> 0:07:06.876 the road and opened fire on a group of Protestant bystanders. 0:07:07.516 --> 0:07:10.276 In response, Protestant law whilst tried to burn down a 0:07:10.316 --> 0:07:13.796 Catholic church near the docks. For five hours, the two 0:07:13.836 --> 0:07:17.796 sides fought locked in deadly gun battle. Hundreds of fires 0:07:17.876 --> 0:07:20.756 burned across the city. By the end of the weekend, 0:07:21.036 --> 0:07:23.836 six people were dead and more than two hundred injured. 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:28.036 The British Home Secretary responsible for Northern Ireland flew up 0:07:28.076 --> 0:07:32.116 from London, surveyed the chaos and ran back to his plane. 0:07:32.756 --> 0:07:35.876 For God's sake, bring me a large scotch, he said, 0:07:36.436 --> 0:07:41.516 burying his head in his hands. What a bloody, awful country. 0:07:41.836 --> 0:07:45.356 A week later, a woman came through Ballymurphy. Her name 0:07:45.396 --> 0:07:49.116 was Harriet Carson. She was famous for hitting Maggie Thatcher 0:07:49.116 --> 0:07:52.516 over the head with a handbag at city Hall. Lawlor said, 0:07:52.916 --> 0:07:55.756 I knew her growing up. Harriet was coming around with 0:07:55.876 --> 0:07:58.676 two lids of pots and she was banging him together 0:07:58.716 --> 0:08:01.956 and she was shouting, come on, come out, come out. 0:08:02.076 --> 0:08:04.716 The people in the lower falls were getting murdered. She 0:08:04.876 --> 0:08:06.716 was shouting it up and I went out to the door. 0:08:07.116 --> 0:08:09.516 My family was all there and she was shouting, they're 0:08:09.556 --> 0:08:12.796 locked in their houses. Their children can't get milk, and 0:08:12.876 --> 0:08:14.836 they haven't got anything for a cup of tea, and 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:17.236 there's no bread, and come out, come out. We need 0:08:17.276 --> 0:08:21.316 to do something. The Lower Falls is in all Catholic neighborhood, 0:08:21.356 --> 0:08:24.396 just down the hill from Balamurfy. Lawler had gone to 0:08:24.436 --> 0:08:27.116 school in the Lower Falls. Her uncle lived there, as 0:08:27.156 --> 0:08:30.156 did countless cousins. She knew as many people in the 0:08:30.196 --> 0:08:33.436 Lower Falls as she did in Balamurphy. The British Army 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:36.596 had put the entire neighborhood under curfew while they searched 0:08:36.636 --> 0:08:40.956 for illegal weapons. I didn't know what curfew meant, Lawler said, 0:08:41.356 --> 0:08:44.196 hadn't a clue. I had to say to somebody, what 0:08:44.276 --> 0:08:46.916 does that mean? She said, they're not allowed out of 0:08:46.916 --> 0:08:49.596 their houses. I said, how can they do that? I 0:08:49.716 --> 0:08:53.516 was totally stunned. Stunned, what do you mean? The people 0:08:53.516 --> 0:08:55.676 are locked in their houses, they can't get out for 0:08:55.716 --> 0:08:58.436 bread or milk. While the Brits, the British Army were 0:08:58.516 --> 0:09:01.596 kicking indoors and racking and ruining and searching. I was 0:09:01.836 --> 0:09:05.476 what the biggest thought in everybody's mind was there are 0:09:05.556 --> 0:09:08.756 people locked in their houses. And as children, you have 0:09:08.756 --> 0:09:12.356 to remember some houses had twelve fifteen kids in them. 0:09:12.676 --> 0:09:15.036 Do you know that's the way it was? What do 0:09:15.076 --> 0:09:17.676 you mean they can't get out of their houses? They 0:09:17.716 --> 0:09:22.556 were angry. Rosemey Lawler is now in her sixties, a 0:09:22.636 --> 0:09:25.716 sturdily built woman with ruddy cheeks and short, white blonde 0:09:25.756 --> 0:09:29.276 hair swept to the side. She was a seamstress by trade, 0:09:29.436 --> 0:09:32.956 and she was dressed with flair, a bright floral blouse 0:09:32.996 --> 0:09:36.356 and white cropped pants. She was talking about things that 0:09:36.436 --> 0:09:39.956 had happened half a lifetime ago, but she remembered every moment. 0:09:41.036 --> 0:09:45.156 My father said, the Brits they'll turn on us. They'll 0:09:45.196 --> 0:09:47.836 say they're in here to protect us. They'll turn on us. 0:09:47.836 --> 0:09:51.316 You wait and see. And he was one hundred percent right. 0:09:52.036 --> 0:09:54.716 They turned on us and the curfew was the start 0:09:54.716 --> 0:09:58.716 of it. The same year that Northern Ireland descended into chaos, 0:09:59.196 --> 0:10:03.196 two economists, Nathan Ladies and Charles Wolf Junior wrote a 0:10:03.236 --> 0:10:07.596 report about how to deal with insurgencies. Ladies and Wolf 0:10:07.756 --> 0:10:11.316 worked for the Rand Corporation, the prestigious think tank started 0:10:11.356 --> 0:10:14.636 after the Second World War by the Pentagon. Their report 0:10:14.716 --> 0:10:18.876 was called Rebellion and Authority. In those years when the 0:10:18.916 --> 0:10:22.556 world was exploding in violence, everyone read Ladies in Wolf. 0:10:23.236 --> 0:10:27.036 Rebellion and Authority became the blueprint for the war in Vietnam, 0:10:27.316 --> 0:10:30.236 and for how police departments dealt with civil unrest and 0:10:30.316 --> 0:10:35.156 for how governments cope with terrorism. Its conclusion was simple. 0:10:36.276 --> 0:10:40.156 Fundamental to our analysis is the assumption that the population, 0:10:40.716 --> 0:10:46.276 as individuals or groups behaves rationally, that it calculates costs 0:10:46.276 --> 0:10:48.596 and benefits to the extent that they can be related 0:10:48.596 --> 0:10:54.156 to different courses of action, and makes choices accordingly. Consequently, 0:10:54.636 --> 0:11:00.476 influencing popular behavior requires neither sympathy nor mysticism, but rather 0:11:00.716 --> 0:11:04.636 a better understanding of what costs and benefits the individual 0:11:04.796 --> 0:11:08.276 or the group is concerned with and how they are calculated. 0:11:09.356 --> 0:11:12.916 In other words, getting insurgents to behave is fundamentally a 0:11:12.956 --> 0:11:16.756 math problem. If there are riots in the streets of Belfast, 0:11:17.076 --> 0:11:20.276 it's because the costs to rioters of burning houses and 0:11:20.436 --> 0:11:24.756 smashing windows aren't high enough. And when Ladies and Wolf 0:11:25.036 --> 0:11:29.996 said that influencing popular behavior requires neither sympathy nor mysticism, 0:11:30.276 --> 0:11:33.716 what they meant was that nothing mattered but that calculation. 0:11:34.756 --> 0:11:37.476 If you were in a position of power, you didn't 0:11:37.476 --> 0:11:40.436 have to worry about how lawbreakers felt about what you 0:11:40.476 --> 0:11:43.756 were doing You just had to be tough enough to 0:11:43.796 --> 0:11:47.076 make them think twice. The general in charge of the 0:11:47.116 --> 0:11:50.276 British forces in Northern Ireland was a man straight out 0:11:50.276 --> 0:11:53.356 of the pages of rebellion and authority. His name was 0:11:53.436 --> 0:11:57.396 Ian Freeland. He had served with distinction in Normandy during 0:11:57.436 --> 0:12:01.156 the Second World War and later fought insurgencies in Cyprus 0:12:01.196 --> 0:12:05.516 and Zanzibar. He was trim and forthright, with a straight 0:12:05.596 --> 0:12:08.836 back and a square jaw and a firm hand. He 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:12.676 conveyed the correct impression of a man who knew what 0:12:12.876 --> 0:12:15.996 needed to be done and would do it. When he 0:12:16.116 --> 0:12:18.516 arrived in Northern Ireland, he made it plain that his 0:12:18.596 --> 0:12:22.236 patience was limited. He was not afraid to use force. 0:12:22.756 --> 0:12:25.836 He had his orders from the Prime Minister. The British 0:12:25.916 --> 0:12:29.636 Army should deal toughly and be seen to deal toughly 0:12:29.996 --> 0:12:34.956 with thugs and gunmen. On June thirtieth, nineteen seventy, the 0:12:35.076 --> 0:12:39.116 British Army received a tip there were explosives and weapons 0:12:39.196 --> 0:12:42.076 hidden in a house at twenty four Balkan Street in 0:12:42.116 --> 0:12:46.916 the Lower Falls. They were told. Freeland immediately dispatched five 0:12:47.116 --> 0:12:50.916 armored cars filled with soldiers and police officers a search 0:12:50.956 --> 0:12:54.756 of the house turned up a cache of guns and ammunition. Outside, 0:12:54.756 --> 0:12:59.196 a crowd gathered. Someone started throwing stones. Stones turned into 0:12:59.276 --> 0:13:03.116 petrol bombs. A riot started. By ten pm, the British 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:07.236 had had enough. An army helicopter armed with a loudspeaker 0:13:07.316 --> 0:13:10.676 circled the Lower Falls to ending that all residents stay 0:13:10.716 --> 0:13:14.916 inside their homes or face arrest. As the streets cleared, 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:19.316 the army launched a massive house to house search. Disobedience 0:13:19.556 --> 0:13:24.116 was met with firm and immediate punishment. The next morning, 0:13:24.316 --> 0:13:28.436 a triumphant Freeland took two Protestant government officials and a 0:13:28.476 --> 0:13:30.876 pack of journalists on a two of the neighborhood and 0:13:30.916 --> 0:13:35.156 the back of an open flatbed truck, surveying the deserted streets, like, 0:13:35.516 --> 0:13:39.036 as one soldier later put it, the British raj on 0:13:39.116 --> 0:13:42.996 a tiger hunt. The British Army went to Northern Ireland 0:13:43.116 --> 0:13:47.436 with the best of intentions. The local police force was overwhelmed, 0:13:47.596 --> 0:13:50.836 and they were there simply to help to serve as 0:13:50.836 --> 0:13:55.716 a peacekeeper between Northern Ireland's two warring populations. This was 0:13:55.836 --> 0:13:58.836 not some distant and foreign land. They were dealing with 0:13:58.876 --> 0:14:02.276 their own country, their own language, and their own culture. 0:14:02.836 --> 0:14:07.156 They had resources and weapons, and soldiers and experience that 0:14:07.396 --> 0:14:10.956 dwarfed those of the insert elements they were trying to contain. 0:14:11.916 --> 0:14:14.436 When Freeland toured the empty streets of the Lower Falls 0:14:14.516 --> 0:14:17.116 that morning, he believed that he and his men would 0:14:17.156 --> 0:14:19.156 be back home in England by the end of the summer. 0:14:20.156 --> 0:14:23.636 But that's not what happened. Instead, what should have been 0:14:23.676 --> 0:14:28.196 a difficult few months turned into thirty years of bloodshed 0:14:28.516 --> 0:14:32.916 and mayhem in Northern Ireland. The British made a simple mistake. 0:14:33.756 --> 0:14:37.116 They fell into the trap of believing that because they 0:14:37.156 --> 0:14:42.476 had resources, weapons, soldiers and experience that dwarfed those of 0:14:42.516 --> 0:14:45.596 the insurgent elements they were trying to contain, it did 0:14:45.636 --> 0:14:48.916 not matter what the people of Northern Ireland thought of them. 0:14:49.836 --> 0:14:53.276 General Freeland believed Ladies and Wolf when they said that 0:14:53.556 --> 0:15:00.036 influencing popular behavior requires neither sympathy nor mysticism, and Ladies 0:15:00.076 --> 0:15:04.396 and Wolf were wrong. It has been said that most 0:15:04.476 --> 0:15:07.716 revolutions are not caused by revolutionaries in the first place, 0:15:07.996 --> 0:15:12.556 but by the stupid and brutality of governments. Sean mcstephen, 0:15:12.716 --> 0:15:16.236 the Provisional IRA's first chief of staff, once said, looking 0:15:16.276 --> 0:15:19.676 back on those early years, well, you had that to 0:15:19.756 --> 0:15:23.476 start with in Northern Ireland, all right. The simplest way 0:15:23.476 --> 0:15:26.356 to understand the British mistake in Northern Ireland is to 0:15:26.436 --> 0:15:30.756 picture a classroom. It's a kindergarten class, a room with 0:15:30.836 --> 0:15:34.796 brightly colored walls covered in children's drawings. Let's call the 0:15:34.836 --> 0:15:39.316 teacher Stella. The classroom was videotaped as part of a 0:15:39.396 --> 0:15:42.876 project at the Curry School of Education at the University 0:15:42.876 --> 0:15:45.636 of Virginia, and there is more than enough footage to 0:15:45.676 --> 0:15:48.036 provide a good sense of the kind of teacher Stella 0:15:48.236 --> 0:15:51.956 is and the kind of classroom she has. Even after 0:15:52.036 --> 0:15:55.356 a few minutes, it is abundantly clear that things aren't 0:15:55.436 --> 0:15:58.876 going well. Stella is sitting in a chair at the 0:15:58.916 --> 0:16:01.316 front of the room. She's reading out loud from a 0:16:01.356 --> 0:16:04.796 book that she's holding up to one side. Seven slices 0:16:04.836 --> 0:16:09.876 of tomatoes, eight juicy olives, nine chunks of chief. A 0:16:09.996 --> 0:16:12.876 girl is standing in front of her, reading along, and 0:16:12.956 --> 0:16:16.156 all around her, the class is in chaos, a mini 0:16:16.236 --> 0:16:19.516 version of Belfast in the summer of nineteen seventy. A 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:22.916 little girl is doing cartwheels across the room. A little 0:16:22.916 --> 0:16:25.596 boy is making faces much as a class seems to 0:16:25.596 --> 0:16:28.076 be paying no attention at all. Some of the students 0:16:28.196 --> 0:16:31.516 have actually turned themselves entirely around so that they have 0:16:31.636 --> 0:16:34.956 their backs to Stella. If you were to walk in 0:16:34.996 --> 0:16:39.156 on Stella's class, what would you think. I'm guessing your 0:16:39.196 --> 0:16:41.316 first reaction would be that she has a group of 0:16:41.396 --> 0:16:45.276 unruly children. Maybe she teaches in a school in a 0:16:45.316 --> 0:16:49.476 poor neighborhood and her students come from troubled families. Maybe 0:16:49.516 --> 0:16:52.236 her students come to school without any real respect for 0:16:52.276 --> 0:16:56.156 authority or learning. Ladies and Wolf would say that she 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:59.636 really needs to use some discipline. Children like that need 0:16:59.676 --> 0:17:03.076 a firm hand, they need rules. If there is no 0:17:03.276 --> 0:17:06.196 order in the classroom, how can any learning take place. 0:17:07.276 --> 0:17:10.516 The truth is, though, that Stella's school isn't in some 0:17:10.756 --> 0:17:16.196 terrible neighborhood. Her students aren't particularly or unusually unruly. When 0:17:16.196 --> 0:17:19.676 the class begins, they are perfectly well behaved and attentive, 0:17:20.036 --> 0:17:23.156 eager and ready to learn. They don't seem like bad 0:17:23.196 --> 0:17:26.876 apples at all. They only start to misbehave well into 0:17:26.876 --> 0:17:29.956 the lesson, and only in response to the way Stella 0:17:30.156 --> 0:17:35.476 is behaving. Stella causes the crisis. How So, by doing 0:17:35.516 --> 0:17:39.196 an appalling job of teaching the lesson, Stella had the 0:17:39.196 --> 0:17:41.876 girl from the class reading alongside her as a way 0:17:41.916 --> 0:17:44.676 of engaging the rest of the students, but the pacing 0:17:44.676 --> 0:17:46.316 of the back and forth between the two of them 0:17:46.676 --> 0:17:50.956 was excruciatingly slow and wooden. Look at her body language. 0:17:51.116 --> 0:17:53.956 One of the Virginia researchers, Bridget Hamry said, as we 0:17:53.996 --> 0:17:57.236 watched Stella right now, she's just talking to this one kid, 0:17:57.396 --> 0:18:00.556 and no one else is getting in. Her colleague, Robert 0:18:00.556 --> 0:18:04.516 Pianta added, there's no rhythm, no pace. This is going nowhere. 0:18:04.756 --> 0:18:08.156 There's no value in what she's doing. Only then did 0:18:08.156 --> 0:18:12.236 the class begin to deteriorate. The little boys started making faces. 0:18:12.716 --> 0:18:16.356 When the child started doing cartwheels, Stella missed it entirely. 0:18:16.836 --> 0:18:18.676 Three or four students to the immediate right of the 0:18:18.716 --> 0:18:22.076 teacher were still gamely trying to follow along, but Stella 0:18:22.196 --> 0:18:24.796 was so locked onto the book that she wasn't giving 0:18:24.796 --> 0:18:29.036 them any encouragement. Meanwhile, to Stella's left, five or six 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:32.476 children had turned themselves around, but that was because they 0:18:32.476 --> 0:18:36.396 were bewildered, not because they were disobedient. Their view of 0:18:36.396 --> 0:18:39.076 the book was completely blocked by the little girl standing 0:18:39.116 --> 0:18:41.396 in front of Stella. They had no way of following 0:18:41.436 --> 0:18:46.196 along we often think of authority as a response to disobedience. 0:18:46.556 --> 0:18:51.996 A child acts up, so a teacher cracks down. Stella's classroom, however, 0:18:52.196 --> 0:18:56.516 suggests something quite different. Disobedience can also be a response 0:18:56.556 --> 0:19:00.036 to authority. If the teacher doesn't do her job properly, 0:19:00.436 --> 0:19:05.396 then the child will become disobedient. With classrooms like this one, 0:19:05.596 --> 0:19:09.636 people will call what is happening a behavioral issue. Said 0:19:10.116 --> 0:19:13.356 we were watching one of Stella's kids wiggling and squirming 0:19:13.356 --> 0:19:16.596 and contorting her face and altogether doing whatever she could 0:19:16.676 --> 0:19:19.676 to avoid her teacher. But one of the things we 0:19:19.756 --> 0:19:22.436 find is that this sort of thing is more often 0:19:22.476 --> 0:19:26.716 an engagement problem than a behavioral problem. If a teacher 0:19:26.796 --> 0:19:30.796 is actually doing something interesting, these kids are quite capable 0:19:31.036 --> 0:19:34.716 of being engaged. Instead of responding in a let me 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:38.196 control your behavior way, the teacher needs to think, how 0:19:38.236 --> 0:19:41.436 can I do something interesting that will prevent you from 0:19:41.436 --> 0:19:45.796 misbehaving in the first place. The next video Pianta and 0:19:45.876 --> 0:19:48.956 Hamrey played was of a third grade teacher giving homework 0:19:48.996 --> 0:19:52.516 to her students. Each student was given a copy of 0:19:52.516 --> 0:19:55.596 the assignment, and the teacher in the class read the 0:19:55.676 --> 0:20:01.116 instructions aloud together. Pianta was aghast. Just the idea that 0:20:01.196 --> 0:20:03.676 you would be choral reading a set of instructions to 0:20:03.716 --> 0:20:06.996 a bunch of eight year olds is almost disrespectful, he said, 0:20:07.156 --> 0:20:11.476 I mean, why is there any instructional purpose they know 0:20:11.556 --> 0:20:14.036 how to read. It's like a waiter in a restaurant 0:20:14.116 --> 0:20:17.276 giving the menu and then proceeding to read every item 0:20:17.356 --> 0:20:20.596 to you just as it appears on the page. A 0:20:20.716 --> 0:20:23.316 boy sitting next to the teacher raises his hand midway 0:20:23.316 --> 0:20:26.076 through the reading, and without looking at him, the teacher 0:20:26.116 --> 0:20:30.116 reaches out, grabs his wrists and pushes his hand down. 0:20:30.876 --> 0:20:34.796 Another child starts to actually do the assignment, an entirely 0:20:34.876 --> 0:20:38.316 logical action given the pointlessness of what the teacher is doing. 0:20:38.796 --> 0:20:44.236 The teacher addresses him sharply, sweetie, this is homework. It 0:20:44.316 --> 0:20:47.756 was a moment of discipline. The child had broken the rules. 0:20:48.076 --> 0:20:51.756 The teacher had responded firmly and immediately. If you were 0:20:51.796 --> 0:20:54.276 to watch that moment with a sound turned off, you 0:20:54.276 --> 0:20:57.116 would think of it as Ladies and Wolf perfectly applied. 0:20:58.036 --> 0:21:00.196 But if you were to listen to what the teacher 0:21:00.276 --> 0:21:03.836 was saying and think about the incident from the child's perspective, 0:21:04.116 --> 0:21:07.236 it would become clear that it is having anything but 0:21:07.356 --> 0:21:10.796 its intended effect. The little boy isn't going to come 0:21:10.836 --> 0:21:14.396 away with the renewed appreciation of the importance of following 0:21:14.396 --> 0:21:17.916 the rules. He's going to come away angry and disillusioned. 0:21:18.756 --> 0:21:23.356 Why because the punishment is completely arbitrary. He can't speak 0:21:23.436 --> 0:21:25.556 up and give his own side of the story, and 0:21:25.676 --> 0:21:29.316 he wants to learn. If that little boy became defiant, 0:21:29.516 --> 0:21:32.836 it was because his teacher made him that way, just 0:21:32.956 --> 0:21:36.436 as Stella turned an eager and attentive student into someone 0:21:36.516 --> 0:21:40.676 who did cartwheels across the floor. When people in authority 0:21:40.716 --> 0:21:43.636 want the rest of us to behave, it matters first 0:21:43.676 --> 0:21:47.956 and foremost how they behave. This is called the principle 0:21:48.036 --> 0:21:52.396 of legitimacy, and legitimacy is based on three things. First 0:21:52.396 --> 0:21:54.876 of all, the people who are asked to obey authority 0:21:55.116 --> 0:21:57.636 have to feel like they have a voice, that if 0:21:57.636 --> 0:22:01.036 they speak up, they will be heard. Second, the law 0:22:01.076 --> 0:22:04.236 has to be predictable. There has to be a reasonable 0:22:04.276 --> 0:22:07.996 expectation that the rules tomorrow are going to be roughly 0:22:07.996 --> 0:22:12.276 the same as the rule today. And third, the authority 0:22:12.316 --> 0:22:15.956 has to be fair. It can't treat one group differently 0:22:16.236 --> 0:22:21.276 from another. All good parents understand these three principles Implicitly, 0:22:21.876 --> 0:22:24.356 if you want to stop little Johnny from hitting his sister, 0:22:24.716 --> 0:22:27.556 you can't look away one time and scream at him another. 0:22:27.876 --> 0:22:30.716 You can't treat his sister differently when she hits him, 0:22:31.076 --> 0:22:33.156 And if he says he really didn't hit his sister, 0:22:33.436 --> 0:22:35.796 you have to give him a chance to explain himself. 0:22:36.716 --> 0:22:39.716 How you punish is as important as the act of 0:22:39.796 --> 0:22:44.436 punishing itself. Nor is the story of Stella all that surprising. 0:22:44.916 --> 0:22:47.596 Anyone who has ever sat in a classroom knows that 0:22:47.636 --> 0:22:50.436 it is important for teachers to earn the respect of 0:22:50.476 --> 0:22:54.676 their students. What is harder to understand, however, is the 0:22:54.716 --> 0:22:57.476 importance of these same principles when it comes to law 0:22:57.476 --> 0:23:00.876 and order. We know our parents and our teachers, so 0:23:00.956 --> 0:23:03.916 it makes sense that legitimacy should matter a lot inside 0:23:03.916 --> 0:23:07.196 the home or the school. But the decision about whether 0:23:07.236 --> 0:23:10.316 to rob a bank or shoots one seems like it 0:23:10.356 --> 0:23:13.716 belongs to a very different category, doesn't it. That's what 0:23:13.796 --> 0:23:16.436 Ladies and Wolf meant when they said that fighting criminals 0:23:16.436 --> 0:23:21.956 and insurgents requires neither sympathy nor mysticism. They were saying 0:23:21.996 --> 0:23:24.716 that at that level, the decision to obey the law 0:23:25.036 --> 0:23:29.276 is a function of a rational calculation of risks and benefits. 0:23:29.316 --> 0:23:33.436 It isn't personal. But that's precisely where they went wrong, 0:23:33.716 --> 0:23:37.276 because getting criminals and insurgents to behave turns out to 0:23:37.316 --> 0:23:41.196 be as dependent on legitimacy as getting children to behave 0:23:41.556 --> 0:23:43.956 in the classroom. We'll be right back with more of 0:23:43.996 --> 0:23:51.076 Malcolm's reading from his book David and Glithe. We're back 0:23:51.076 --> 0:23:55.076 with more of Malcolm's reading of David and Glythe When 0:23:55.196 --> 0:23:59.316 Ladies and Wolf wrote that influencing popular behavior requires neither 0:23:59.396 --> 0:24:02.596 sympathy nor mysticism, they meant that the power of the 0:24:02.676 --> 0:24:06.796 state was without limits. If you wanted to impose order, 0:24:07.076 --> 0:24:09.476 you didn't have to worry about what those whom you 0:24:09.476 --> 0:24:12.356 were ordering about thought of you. You were above that. 0:24:13.116 --> 0:24:16.276 But Ladies and Wolf had it backwards. That was the 0:24:16.356 --> 0:24:20.236 mistake General Freeland made in the Lower Falls. He didn't 0:24:20.236 --> 0:24:22.156 look at what was happening through the eyes of people 0:24:22.196 --> 0:24:26.356