1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. A few years ago, I 2 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: got a phone call from a friend of mine who 3 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,159 Speaker 1: runs a production company out in LA She asked me 4 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: if I'd like to take on the task of being 5 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: a forensic expert on a podcast that actually had already started, 6 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: but she really needed the voice and maybe the lens 7 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: of a forensics person on this because arguably, as you'll 8 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: find out soon, the deaths that we're talking about are 9 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: some of the most complex that you can imagine when 10 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: it comes to death investigation in my area of specialty 11 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: medical legal death investigation. And without batting an eye, of course, 12 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: I said, certainly, I'll be glad to It's one of 13 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: those moments in time where be careful what you ask for, 14 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: because I really didn't know what I was getting involved 15 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: with at the time. Because when friends I ask you 16 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: to do stuff for them, you generally say sure, I'll 17 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: help you any way I can. And in this case, 18 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: I became so involved in the investigation and coverage of 19 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: these deaths that I found myself many evenings after doing 20 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: a taping session crying. I'm not ashamed to admit that, 21 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: because this goes to the heart of everything that I 22 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: place value on in my life, namely family. We're going 23 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: to have a discussion today about what has infamously become 24 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: known as the Pike Count murders, or maybe better known 25 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: to some of you as the piked And Massacre. I'm 26 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs. First off, 27 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: Dave Max, thank you so much for agreeing to discuss 28 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: just how complex telling this tale is from a forensic 29 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: standpoint of the deaths of eight people who. 30 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: Eight people were at night. 31 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, at night, And let me go ahead and throw 32 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: the tagline in here. It goes something like one night, 33 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: four scenes, eight murders, and I think that any one 34 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: of those points one night, that's that's significant. When you 35 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: couple that with eight homicides that were all committed on 36 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: that one night, and then you throw in I think 37 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: the logistics of four separate scenes, and it literally it 38 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: makes my hit swim even now to this day when 39 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: I began to think about it. 40 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 3: It did happen, and it happened. It's the story of 41 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 3: two families, actually two families that had been friends for 42 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: a long time, the Wagners and the Rodents. Jake Wagner 43 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 3: and Hannah Roden began dating when Hannah Roden was thirteen 44 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 3: and Jake Wagner was eighteen. Hannah Roden became pregnant with 45 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 3: Jake Wagner's baby when she was fifteen, Baby Sophia was born. 46 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 3: Both families loved her. Those who knew Jake Wagner and 47 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 3: Hannah Rodin said that Jake Wagner was very controlling, had 48 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 3: been verbally and physically abusive to Hannah, and Hannah Roden 49 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 3: eventually broke up with Jake Wagner. That's when the problems began. 50 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 3: As Hannah Roden moved on with her life and started 51 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 3: dating other men, she became pregnant with another man's child. 52 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: Jake Wagner tried to force Hannah Roden to put his 53 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 3: name on the birth certificate for the baby of another man. 54 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 3: Hannah Roden wouldn't do it. The Wagners tried to force 55 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: Hannah Roden to sign papers to turn Cuss City of 56 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: Sofia over to Jake Wagner. She refused, and she posted 57 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 3: a message on Facebook that she would quote never sign 58 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 3: papers ever. They will have to kill me first unquote 59 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: that that message on Facebook. That is when the Wagner 60 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: family decided to kill Hannah Rodin, and they knew in 61 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 3: order to get custody of Sophia they would have to 62 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: kill her, Hannah Rodin's other relatives so that custody would 63 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 3: fall to Jake Wagner and his family. That is where 64 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 3: all of this began. 65 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: The Wagners, when they went about this attempt to wipe 66 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 1: them out, I think that they determined to order by 67 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: who is the biggest threat, and of course, in this case, 68 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, Chris Rohadin Senr. Is the biggest threat here 69 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: just from a physical violence standpoint. He was not a 70 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: type of person that would shy away from defending his family. 71 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: He had to be eradicated. So that night his remains 72 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: were discovered along with his cousin, Gary, who was actually visiting. 73 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: Okay, that's what I wanted to get to you. 74 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 3: So we've got in this first location, we have Chris 75 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 3: Roden Senior, the patriarch of the Rodent family, and his 76 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 3: cousin Gary Rodin. Yes they're in the same facility. 77 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're literally in a single white trailer. And I 78 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: don't know at that point in time if the perpetrators 79 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: expected Gary to physically be there. I think that maybe 80 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: they thought that Chris was going to be there alone, perhaps, 81 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: but you know, you can tell you know, we've talked 82 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: about overkill a lot, you know, on body bags. That's 83 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: what we should It's a big element when you begin 84 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: to think about, you know, who targets are and all 85 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But with Chris, he was actually 86 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: shot nine times. Dave, you've got multiple weapons, and probably 87 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: the most devastating weapon that was brought to bear in 88 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: this case, Dave was was this SKS, which is roughly 89 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 1: just so that folks understand, it's roughly a thirty caliber 90 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: high powered rifle and it's a military grade weapon that 91 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: has original Soviet Soviet origins. There's a lot of them 92 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: on the market. You can go out and you can 93 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: find an SKS just about anywhere. They're cheaper than even 94 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: in AK forty seven or AK forty seven knockoff. And 95 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: so this weapon was brought to bear. You've got multiple 96 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: rounds that have passed through the walls. It gives you 97 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: an indication, you know, kind of Jake talked about how 98 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: this all went down and the door was closed. You know, 99 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: Chris knew that something was up, and they're fired through 100 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: the walls to begin with, and then they made entry 101 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: into the home. And so you've got Chris who is 102 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: shot nine times. He's hit let me see, let me 103 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: get this right. He's hit in the head, the torso, 104 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: and the arm. As a matter of fact, the injury 105 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: that Chris sustained in the arm was so horrific that 106 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: it has been described as almost a traumatic amputation, you know, 107 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: with the skeletal features of the arm actually exposed. This 108 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: round passed through, this high velocity round. And so after 109 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: Chris is killed, Gary his cousin who's there as well, 110 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: and he's thirty eight years old, lives in Kentucky, and 111 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: he shot. He's hit multiple times in the head. So 112 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea that he was you know, 113 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: you can kind of imply that this was like perhaps 114 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: an execution. It's hard to score a headshot from a 115 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: great distance. Contrary to what people see on television, this 116 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: is something that has to be purposed. You come up 117 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: on a person and it's total chaos in this environment. 118 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: And when the from a forensic standpoint, when you think 119 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: about the nine when one call that came in, things 120 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: that was observed at the scene day that really I 121 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: think brought everything home was the fact that there were 122 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: bloody drag marks leading from the living room area all 123 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: the way back to the bedroom. If people can't envision 124 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: what that looks like, you think about a bloodsoak towel 125 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: perhaps or something stained where you've drug it across the 126 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: floor and it's got these kind of curvelinear patterns to it, 127 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: where this is like almost like a dirty mop kind 128 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: of thing being drug across the floor, and it gives 129 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: you an idea first off of directionality. How chilling is that? 130 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: Because if you see the beginning of that as just 131 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: a civilian that walks onto the scene, you see that 132 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: there is blood on the floor, which you think is blood, 133 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: and then it's leading away. Oh my gosh, what is 134 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: this leading to? Can you imagine the chill that's associated 135 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: with that. There's like debris, you know, piled up sheets, 136 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. When this is pulled back, 137 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: they discover Chris Senior and Jerry in there covered up 138 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 1: and they're just super saturated in blood. Something bad has 139 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: happened here. 140 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: Joe to back up for just a minute, mentioning the 141 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: weapons and the nine bullet wounds to Chris rodin correct, Yeah, yeah, 142 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 3: all right, you talked about the arm and how damaging 143 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 3: that shot was. Where were the other shots? What kind 144 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 3: of injuries did he sustain from those nine shots? 145 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: Well, you've got multiple shots that involve the torso. And 146 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: when I say torso, we have to differentiate, you know, 147 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: so that people understand that's head, head, and abdomen generally 148 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: when we talk about. 149 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,239 Speaker 2: Waste of Yeah, the torso itself without the extremities. 150 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, without the extremities, We've got the one round that's 151 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: passing through the arm. And if people will essentially find 152 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: the base of your wrist, where your wrist goes into 153 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: the heel of your hand, moving all the way back 154 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: to your full arm, that's the area he was shot in. 155 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: So that's where you're you're radius, and you're all in 156 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: the are those bilateral bones in there that provide structural 157 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: integrity to the arm, and so those are are literally 158 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: kind of transsected by the bullet or the projectile and 159 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: when they went to move his arm, these bones are protruding. 160 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: And that's that's something that is generally associated with a 161 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: high velocity round like a thirty thirty caliber rifle round, 162 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: which is what the SKS fires, and and so that 163 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: demonstrates that that may have been an early shot. So 164 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: he's having to fight or protect himself and his cousin 165 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: with an awareness that he can't he can't use one 166 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: of his hands. How defenseless that is. And then the 167 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: head shots are that they're the coup de gras, that's 168 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: that is, those are finishing shots where you're going in 169 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, what do we think about the most lethal 170 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: area in the body? You're gonna shoot somebody, You're gonna 171 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: pop them in the head. And then that was kind 172 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: of the finishing at that point. 173 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 3: Now was that in the living room? Is did all 174 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 3: the shots take place? Because there was a bit of 175 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 3: a struggle. 176 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: Here, Yeah, there was. And again back to the awareness, 177 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: it's almost like a close close quarters combat event at 178 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: that point in time where there's this, uh, this herculean 179 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: struggle that's going on. You know, you got adrenaline pumping. 180 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: Which Wagner's were in there doing this. 181 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: Well, you've you've got Jake that has entered in to 182 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: this environment along with along with his dad and and 183 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: so they're they're perpetrating this event. The older brother, George 184 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: had remained outside, but Jake had left the trailer to 185 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: go disable the CCTV out in the adjacent structure, and 186 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: Jake says that when he came back in there that 187 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: he knows the bodies were gone, and he actually visualized 188 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: the bodies back in the back of the trailer and 189 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: they were covered up at that point in time. He said, 190 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: I don't know who exactly moved them. It wasn't me, 191 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: but they were moved. He did admit and stated plainly 192 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: that his father said straight up and paraphrasing, I've just 193 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: killed my best friend. So he's got that, you know, 194 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: in his mind. And there's an attempt and it's hard 195 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: to figure these things out day. What do you think 196 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: you're going to do from a physical evidence standpoint, a 197 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: forensic standpoint, where you're going to actually cover this up? 198 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: So this is some kind of half hearted attempt where 199 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: you're going to drag the bodies back into the back 200 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 1: of the house, the trailer house, and then cover them 201 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: up with a sheet, and you're leaving drag marks behind. 202 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: What What are you trying to accomplish here? I don't 203 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: I don't think it's so much an attempt to eradicate evidence. 204 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you're creating more evidence because 205 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: it's a dynamic event. You're actually for the investigators. When 206 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: you show up at the scene, you see drag marks 207 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: and blood that that gives you an idea of postmarum activity, 208 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: like you're meddling with the body, you know, postmortem after 209 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 1: they're dead. So and there was no attempt to clean 210 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: that up. You know that that's left behind. So it's 211 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: almost like a marker there that they're leaving behind. So 212 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: you know, you begin to think about these things. Why 213 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: would it be that you're going to go in and 214 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: and shoot these people and then try to cover them up. 215 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: It almost gives you a sense that this is driven 216 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: by you know, passion, or it's driven by an adrenaline burst, 217 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: you know, where you're in control. You're not in control 218 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: of logical thought at this point in time, and so 219 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: that you know, that's that's just my assessment of it. 220 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 2: Now. 221 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 3: Jake was outside when this was going on, and he 222 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 3: returns Jake Wagner was outside when the bodies were drugging. 223 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 2: To be very clear here, yes, we're starting. 224 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: With this one because the nine to one one call 225 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 3: the next morning that began the reporting on this was 226 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 3: from this house and it was the first murders we 227 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 3: heard about not the order in which they were killed, 228 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 3: which actually does kind of come into play here because 229 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: the way I just assumed wrongly that this was the 230 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 3: first murder. And yet what was this the first murder? 231 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: Was Jake? 232 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 3: I mean, was Chris Roaden Sr. The first one they murdered? 233 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, in my opinion, he was. Yeah, him, and 234 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: then Gary and again. 235 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 2: And that's because they saw him as the biggest I. 236 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: Saw him as the biggest threat. Yeah, and that he 237 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: could bring, he could bring the most forced to bear 238 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: if anybody was going to try to put them off 239 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: of doing what they had all sat around in that 240 00:14:54,760 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: house at the Wagner Homestead and planned sitting around the 241 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: kitchen table that it was at this moment in time 242 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: they knew that he had to be neutralized. 243 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 3: And they lured him there to this spot at that 244 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 3: time with the prospect of a drug deal. 245 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: Yeah they did. And yeah, the luring took place with Chris, 246 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: Chris Senior. You know, Chris approached the door under the 247 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: guise of attempting to buy dope or to set up 248 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: a buy with somebody else or something. You know, this 249 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: is what they had in their mind in order to 250 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: facilitate this it's not like it was necessarily well scripted 251 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: out and vetted and all those sort of things. But 252 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: this is the loose scenario that they had in their mind. 253 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: Either way, they knew they could get him to the door, 254 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: and they knew that with the appearance of you know, 255 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: his best friend at the door, that his guard would 256 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: be done. You know, you show up, your buddy knocks 257 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: at your door in the middle of the night or 258 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: late evening, they show up, you're not going to step 259 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: out on the une talk to him. I mean, if 260 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: it had been some unknown person all dressed out, decked 261 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: out in black and all that sort of stuff, you know, 262 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: you might peek out the wind and say, what do 263 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: you want? You know, no, no, no, You're going to 264 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: open the door and you're going to have conversation. That's 265 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: the way it wanted to do. 266 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 3: And so that's the first crime scene that was called 267 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 3: into nine to one one the next morning. And this 268 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 3: is where the case begins with the elimination of Chris 269 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 3: Rodin Senior, who was awake, was lured to this place 270 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 3: at this time by somebody he saw as a friend, 271 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 3: the senior Wagner. You mentioned earlier that the Wagners did 272 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 3: not know Gary was going to be there, or if 273 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 3: they did that it was the last minute thing. They 274 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 3: thought they were going to go in and just have 275 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: Chris to deal with. Chris Rohaden Senior. Was Gary Roden 276 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: riddled with bullets the same way that Chris Roden Senior was. 277 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: No, No, not to this degree. No, Chris was taught 278 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: target and uh, you know Gary was shot multiple times, 279 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: but all of his gunshot ones were head shots. These 280 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: weapons were actually equipped with homemade silencers that were essentially 281 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: made at home by the Wagoners, and there was even 282 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: a digital evidence that this had been searched out. You know, 283 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: how to make a homemade silencer, and there were several 284 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: iterations of this. One was I think originated with a 285 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: mag light flashlight where you could actually place this on 286 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: the end of the barrel and create it. I'm not 287 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: going to go into great detail about how a suppressor 288 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: is created, but everything from that to oil filters to 289 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: all kinds of other stuff. And here's here's another kind 290 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: of chilling thing that occurred from a forensic standpoint, I 291 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: think looking at it from an investigation, they'd actually purchased 292 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: what it referred to as brass Catcher's day and brass 293 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: catchers means that it's a it's an add on to 294 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: a weapon, where when with a semi automatic weapon, when 295 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: as these empty brass casings are empty casings, they don't, 296 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: Brass catchers just kind of a it's like saying kleenex. 297 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's going to catch the spent holes of 298 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: the shells so that you're not going to leave it behind. Again, 299 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 1: that goes to purpose, does mean, you know, I'm going 300 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: to try to do everything I can to mitigate evidence 301 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: that might be left behind. And that actually comes into 302 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: play as they leave Chris Seniors home and go next 303 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: door to Frankie Rodents trailer. 304 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 3: This is why there was a need for the silencers 305 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: because the proximity of the homes of the scenes, the 306 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 3: crime scenes were very close, and firing these weapons inside 307 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 3: of a trailer would have woken up the neighborhood. 308 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that that's probably the case. 309 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 3: Neighborhood being the wrong term to use. It was a 310 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 3: rural area, but the road and family all lived right here. 311 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're kind of heavily concentrated in this area. And 312 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you know, Frankie who's twenty years old. 313 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: He lives in a trailer, and I've physically been here. 314 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: I could as bad as my old shoulders are at 315 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: this point in my life, I could pick up a 316 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: rock and probably have thrown it from Chris Senior's home 317 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: to Frankie's home and hit the roof of that trailer. 318 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: And that's how close in proximity. Of course you've got. 319 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: You've got buildings that are kind of in between, all right, 320 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: you've got a barn structure of this sort of thing. 321 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: And of course Chris famously had the large grow area, 322 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,239 Speaker 1: which was a huge facility behind his house and they 323 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: would use it for a real Was it covered, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 324 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: it was covered. 325 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 3: So as the investigation into these murders took place, you 326 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 3: mentioned the grow operation, all of the Rodents at one 327 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 3: point in time or other were involved in growing marijuana, small, big, 328 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 3: what have you, or at least Chris was. 329 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: By extension, you know, the peripherals were there's an awareness 330 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: you can't you can't live in this close proximity and 331 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, and not have an awareness of what's going on. 332 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: And of course this is a straight up you know, 333 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: obviously cash business, and so that from that perspective, it 334 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: could be hidden, you know, if you're changing dollars and 335 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: handing things over and that sort of thing. And who 336 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: knows how how extensive the so called network is. This 337 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: is not you know, the nineteen eighties and southern Florida, 338 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: where you've got a huge you know, people flying stuff in. 339 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: It's not like that. You're talking about people that live 340 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: in isolation. One person I've heard said, it's it's the area, 341 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: you know, you have to pipe in sunshine, and that's 342 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: a that's a good thing because it's beautiful. I mean, 343 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: it's absolutely gorgeous, but it is in isolation. You're not 344 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: near a major you know, interstate highway where there's gonna 345 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: be drug trafficking per se. So you have to think 346 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: about that from the sense that this is kind of 347 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: a limited operation and probably you're dealing with locals. 348 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 3: All right, So Gres Rodin, he is now eliminated. The 349 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 3: forty year old patriarch at the family. He was awake 350 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 3: when it began. He was shot nine times. His face 351 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 3: was obliterated. The nine one calls did they beat him? 352 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? 353 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,479 Speaker 3: So when the Wagners arrived at the Rodent premises, they 354 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 3: were barefoot, and did they not put shoes on when 355 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 3: they were in Rodent's house. 356 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: Yes they did. And the reason we know that is 357 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: that there was actually a recovered print in blood. You know, 358 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: that they had foot protection while they were on in there, 359 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: and that was one of the things that kind of 360 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: sealed the deal because you could look back at the 361 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: nature of that print that was left behind on the 362 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: floor and getting an idea of the structure of the 363 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: of the shoe. Interesting little aside about this is that 364 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: it wasn't coming up on any of the reference material 365 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: for the people at State Crime Lab and this this 366 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: technician and this is one of the odd things about 367 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: this case, among many others, but one of the I 368 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: guess from an investigative standpoint, a really cool cool point. 369 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: She she took it upon herself to go out and 370 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: go shopping. I'll be dog one. She didn't discover these 371 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: the shoes that had been purchased at Walmart and it 372 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: was it was bott on, Matt. That's just too we 373 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, I know, you know, what are the chances 374 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: and you talk about just kind of good old fashioned 375 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: investigative literal what they used to call shoe leather, investigative 376 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: shoe leather where you're and that's kind of an interesting 377 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: statement where you're going where you're going to go out 378 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: and you're going to seek this thing out. 379 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 3: Well, you think about it in this case, Joe forensically, 380 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 3: because these families had been involved with one another for many, 381 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 3: many years, there was a reasonable expectation that hairfy and 382 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 3: fibers and things like that from the Wagoners would be 383 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 3: in the road and home. 384 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 2: Is just an expectation based on their relationship. 385 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're right. And that's a great point because 386 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: you know, I have a lot of people, you know 387 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: that will say, well, just look at the DNA, you know, 388 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: and you know this and that, and there really wasn't 389 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: any DNA because people always want that. But that one 390 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: piece of evidence, when you think about it, that shoeprint. 391 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: And it was actually contentious in court because you know, 392 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: there there were questions about the experts that were brought 393 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: in to do the examination. There was by the state 394 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: they had reached out to an individual that is highly trained, 395 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: highly competent, highly respected that was brought in to examine 396 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: examine the shoes. And they try to make a big 397 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: deal out of how shoe print evidence is is not. 398 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: They'll try to use terms like pseudoscience, you know, to 399 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: say that you know, these markers can't be positively and 400 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: numerically identified, you know, like you would with tox college 401 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: or DNA. 402 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 3: A twenty eight years earlier, they were able to figure 403 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 3: out Bruno ma Alli's shoes on No. J. Simpson's feet. 404 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, and so all of a sudden, we're 405 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: in this new paradigm where you know, the gold standard 406 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: is DNA and it's really hard to live up to 407 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: right to those numbers, you know, and everybody wants it. 408 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,479 Speaker 1: But that shoe print is something I think that you know, 409 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: when we go back in time we study these cases, 410 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: that's going to be a seminal moment in time where 411 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: you know, you talk about what were the biggest damning 412 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: pieces of evidence, and it's it's going to be in 413 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 1: the top five in in this in this massacre. 414 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 3: Okay, now, Chris Roden, Gary Roden, his cousin both dad. 415 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 3: So they leave Chris Roden's trailer and walk several hundred 416 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 3: feet to the next victim home, which is Frankie Rodin. Yes, 417 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 3: all right, now inside this home is Frankie Roden, who's 418 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: twenty years old, Hannah Hazel Gilly is twenty years old, 419 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 3: and there are two children. Now, are these the children 420 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 3: of Frankie and Hannah or their Hannah's children? 421 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: Correct? 422 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: Well, one of these children is the older child who 423 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: eventually comes to the door, you know, and infamously says's 424 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: daddy's playing zombie. That child is in Frankie's custody, and 425 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: that's from a previous relationship. They have a young child 426 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,239 Speaker 1: who is actually sleeping in bed with them, Dave, and 427 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: this is a child that is like super saturated in 428 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: the blood of the parents. 429 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 3: Backup, they leave the Chris Roden Senior they being the 430 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 3: group of Wagners. Now what group of Wagners are doing this? 431 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 3: I mean we all know Jake Wagner is the is 432 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 3: there his dad and his brother? Correct Yese Wagers. Yes, 433 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 3: So the three Wagoners now leave Chris Rodents. They walk 434 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 3: to Frankie Roden's house at twenty years old, Hannah at 435 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 3: twenty years old, and their two children. Now it's in 436 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 3: the middle of the night and they are in better sleep. 437 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 2: Correct, yes, they are. 438 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: And they tried to use use the method of getting 439 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: them to come to the door by knocking on the door, 440 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: and they couldn't. They couldn't rouse them. So what happens next, Well, 441 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: Jake actually enters through a window on the back of 442 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: the on the back of their trailer, comes in through 443 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: that window, opens the door so that the others can 444 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: get in. This child that we're not going to mention 445 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: the children's names, but this child, the older child, is 446 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: actually sleeping on sofa and Jake enters the bedroom of 447 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: Frankie and Hannah. They're in bed, sleeping and this baby 448 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: is sleeping between them. That's when he he opens up. 449 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: He shoots Frankie, the twenty year old who is Jake, Yeah, 450 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: shoots Frankie who is Chris, and your son shoots him 451 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: in the head. He's deceased, and then just opens up 452 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: on Hannah. And I find this is one of the 453 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: things that kind of left us cratching our heads about 454 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: that why why would why would Hannah? Hazel Gilly is 455 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: actually her name. She's twenty years old as well. Her 456 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: and Frankie are not married, but they are referred to 457 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: as fiancees. And he shot her five times in the head. Dave, 458 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: you know what what would be the need to do that? 459 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: You know, you think, well, at one wasn't sufficient, So 460 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to do it again, just to make sure 461 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: she's down. 462 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 2: But why five, Is there any something that they got 463 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: up and tried to faint? 464 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: No, No, they were dead. They were dead in the 465 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: bed where they were laying, and that that little precious 466 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: baby was laying in between them. 467 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 3: We know they had multiple guns. Was it were multiple 468 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 3: guns used in the head shots? Throw as at one? 469 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: No, this is going to be a one shot, no 470 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: one weapon deal. And they're left there. And here's here's 471 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: one other thing that Jake had admitted to there was 472 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: there were apparently like piles of clothes and this sort 473 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: of thing occupying the space. So Jay had attempted Remember 474 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: we talked about brass catchers earlier. Apparently the weapon that 475 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: he's using at this moment, Tim does not have a 476 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: brass catcher because he's expending brass. And his big concern 477 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: was to be able to try to retrieve that brass. 478 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: He couldn't find it all and they actually found a 479 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: spent casing in there, and again that's another forensic tie 480 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: back in this particular case, and so he just he 481 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: couldn't recover everything there physically at the scene. So they 482 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: actually X fil from this scene and they're going to 483 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: go and go to Dana Roden's house. 484 00:29:39,600 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 3: Now Chris Rodin and his cousin Gary in the first trailer. 485 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: Now Dad. 486 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 3: Now we go to Frankie Frankie Road and Hannah Gilly 487 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 3: in bed with a baby between them. The baby's left alive. 488 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 3: The perpetrators now leave the premises. How far do they 489 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 3: have to now go to get to the next location 490 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 3: where Dana Roading is. 491 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: It would be a very easy trip for them. You 492 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: can't see Dana's house. And just so I can set 493 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: the scene for you having been there. Where Chris Senior's 494 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: home and Frankie's home which are they would be what 495 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: we refer to as next door neighbors. They're on the 496 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: north side of the road. And then if you go 497 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: back up the road toward what would be referred to 498 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: as town town is still almost away. Dana's house would 499 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: be on south side of the road. Okay, And so 500 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: it again sits back from the road. She doesn't really 501 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: have a lot of neighbors that are near her, and 502 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: it's set back and her home. Dana's home is a 503 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: bit more robust. It is in fact a mobile home, 504 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: but it is one of these mobile homes where it 505 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: has been in place. It's got a built out porch 506 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: on the front of it, and then there are adjacent 507 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: add ons to it to kind of expand it out 508 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: a bit. And then there is a large garage that's 509 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: immediately adjacent to her home on a paved on a 510 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: paved drive. It looks nothing like the other two homes, 511 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: Chris Senior's home, just so you know, they're old cars everywhere. Dave, 512 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: you know, and you take a look at the aerial 513 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: shots of his place, it looks like total chaos, and 514 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: it's total chaos to us, but you know he would 515 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: work on old cars and all that sort of thing. 516 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: It's not chaotic to him. It's the way he had 517 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: things ordered. And not to mention, you know, the grow 518 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: house and all those sorts of things. But taking a 519 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: look at this, you think, well, how in the world 520 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: are you going to negotiate all of this. Dana's home 521 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: is something completely different. It is absolutely completely different. When 522 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: they make entry, you know, into her home, which there 523 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: was no attempt to rouse her out of the bed. 524 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: The door was unlocked, that came in through the house, 525 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: and you've got again you've got Jake going back to 526 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: her bedroom in one chilling account. He talks about how 527 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: Dana when he opened the door to her bedroom, when 528 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: he made entry into her bedroom, her face was illuminated 529 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: by her phone. She was laying in bed on the 530 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: phone looking at things, and for that moment time they 531 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: made eye contact. And that's that's when you know he 532 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: went to work and he shot her laying in her bed. 533 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 3: Jake Wagner admitted to shooting five people, killing five. Was 534 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 3: Dana one of them? 535 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: Yes? 536 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 2: Did Jake Wagner kill Dana? Yes? He did. 537 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 3: Now there are still in Dana's home. Hannah may Rodin, Yes, nineteen. Now, 538 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 3: this Hannah may Rodin is the genesis of this entire story, 539 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 3: the entire thing. She's nineteen years old, and she is 540 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 3: in this home with her with Dana, and Chris Rodin 541 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 3: Junior is in the home. He's sixteen years old. 542 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: A high school student. 543 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 2: Yes. 544 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 3: And then Hannah may Rodin had given birth to a 545 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 3: child four days earlier. 546 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's in a postpartum state at this moment in 547 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: time and taking care of her baby. Hannah may who 548 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: is Jake's former lover and had had a child who 549 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: by the way, that child that night was in the 550 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: possession of the Wagner's day, Jake had openly admitted that 551 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: he did not want the baby to starve because, you know, 552 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: I guess in his mind he didn't know how long 553 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: it would take for this to be discovered, these homicides 554 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: to be discovered, So he placed the child adjacent to 555 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: Hannah's breast so that the child could suckle during the night, 556 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: you know, and she's in a postwartm state. He's murdered. 557 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: Just let that sink in. He's murdered this young mother. 558 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: And he paused long enough to think that when well, 559 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: it would be best if I could place the baby 560 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,439 Speaker 1: adjacent to the breast of the chock, could feed during 561 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: the night, feeding off the dead, dead mother. And I, 562 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: you know, for a long time, as I've covered this case, 563 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: I've thought about you know, I didn't know what to 564 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: think about that, because there there's there's part of it 565 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: that's very human. I guess some people might even say 566 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: that in a twisted kind of way. It's it's compassionate, 567 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. But on the on the other hand, 568 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: it's one of the more sickening aspects to this because 569 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: that's this child, you know, keep in mind, Hannah's body 570 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 1: has been greatly traumatized. That's that is probably one of 571 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: the biggest understatements I could possibly make about this, because 572 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: she's been shot again five times in the head. And 573 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: I'm still fascinated by that that we've gotten both of 574 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: these young lady, both the Hannahs that are shot five 575 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: times in bed. 576 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 3: Joe with five gunshot wounds to the head for Hannah 577 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 3: may Rodin. There's still a sixteen year old boy in 578 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 3: the house, Chris Jr. How did they kill him? Was 579 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 3: he awake? 580 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 2: No? 581 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: A single gunshot wound to the head. He was actually 582 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: killed in his bedroom. Now I think he came off 583 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: the bed perhaps and was wedged between the wall. 584 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 3: So now we've got the first three locations. The fourth location, 585 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 3: Joe is not there. These three are on the same area. 586 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 3: The fourth location is not it's miles away, seven and 587 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 3: a half miles away, and it's a camper trailer. 588 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, yes it is. You know, when I was 589 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: standing out there, I thought these other locations were truly 590 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: in isolation. But you know, buddy, when you get out 591 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: there to where Kenneth lived, this is it's not an 592 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: unimproved road has been graded. You know, there's gravel on 593 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: either side. But and the way we measure things nowadays, 594 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: I think relative to isolation, that sort of thing is 595 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: do we have cell coverage? It was hit or miss 596 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: at best out there, So it's not it's not like 597 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: you're gonna, you know, hop on the phone and have 598 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: an extended, extended conversation with somebody. You know, You've got 599 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: to get to a spot, you know where where you 600 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: can actually utilize your phone. 601 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 2: Right. 602 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 3: Well, now, how was Kenneth Rodin related to Chris Rodin seeing? 603 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so Kenneth, you know, keep in mind Chris 604 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: Chris senior. And this is a bit confusing, I think 605 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: for some folks. Chris Senior, even though he's the patriarch 606 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: of the family, he's the younger brother of Kenneth. And 607 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: so Kenneth, you know, he had he had his own family, 608 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: he had, he had children. But he lived in this 609 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: little caravan, if you will, little little travel trailer that 610 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: was pulled out onto this piece of property. 611 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 3: Seven and a half miles away from the other three scenes. 612 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 3: How many times was he shot? And by what gun? 613 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 2: Do you know? 614 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: He's only shot a single Tom, Dave, He's only shot 615 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: a single Tom. And when he shot he shot with 616 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 1: a forty caliber glock, which is one of the other 617 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: weapons that they had. They had this twenty two handgun, 618 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber handgun that looked like an old fashioned 619 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: Colt forty five nineteen eleven Colt forty five. 620 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: Was he asleep and he was shot? 621 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and it was it was stated that, you know, 622 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: his door was simply kicked in and he was shot 623 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: in the head and that was it. And then you know, 624 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: the perpetrators turned and left. One interesting little aside is 625 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: that Kenneth who lived in the trailer, in the travel 626 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: trailer that was roughly seven miles away, he even had 627 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: his own tiny little grow operation at his house. And 628 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: so again you come back to thematically, you come back 629 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: to the drugs, and look, I'm not I'm saying the 630 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 1: universal you. You cannot fault the police for exploring that 631 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: because you know, first off, you're saying, what in the 632 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: heck we've got eight dead bodies, what's the common denominator here? Well, 633 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: at Chris's house, he's got a literal grow house. He's 634 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,479 Speaker 1: growing weed there. And then his brother that lives at 635 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: a great distance away, he's got a small grow operation, 636 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: maybe for personal consumption. Maybe he could sell a dime bag, 637 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, out of what he's producing. But that's one 638 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: of the common denominators that you have to look at investigatively. 639 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 1: It's really easy, I think, for us to Monday morning 640 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: quarterback a situation like this, but it's it is and 641 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: this goes back to what I've taught investigators in the past. 642 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: You truly have to be that quiet in the center 643 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: of the storm because when you think about this community, 644 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: talk about eight, eight victims all at one time. If 645 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: you and I are in a basic college statistics class together, 646 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: that number is statistically significant. This is not something you 647 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: just like from you know, from the overall population of 648 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: this little county. Eight people dead in one night. That's 649 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: a statistically significant number. So everybody there, chins are going 650 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: to be wagging about this. They're going to want to know, 651 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: and you know, nothing will get population and more of 652 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: a stir than a multiple homicide because they you know, 653 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: people go home, they load their weapons, and they lock 654 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: their doors because they don't know who's out there. And 655 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: Dave this case, these cases took so long to affect 656 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: an arrest on and that's what's really striking about it. 657 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 1: It took that long to formulate everything. Even after you 658 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: have all of this forensic data that you've collected, how 659 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: are you going to take all of that data and 660 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,919 Speaker 1: tie it back? Even Jake said, you know, they wore 661 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: the shoes they particularly wore. They put on masks. They're 662 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,919 Speaker 1: not going to shed hair. They thought about that. They've 663 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: got gloves on. 664 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 3: Even dyed their hair. Jake and their brother a hit. 665 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 3: They both dyed their hair. 666 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean they're taking steps to avoid leaving 667 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: behind some element of their person. They wore gloves the 668 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: entire time. Even after these deeds were done, Jake went 669 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: and his brother went to great Links to begin to 670 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: tear apart these weapons. They actually took these particulate weapons 671 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: and placed them into buckets, filled them with cement, and 672 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: then use them to weight down what's referred to as 673 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: a goose house, which I found absolutely fascinating. I never 674 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: heard of a goose house but in a pond where 675 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: they couldn't be found. So they're making they're taking steps 676 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: to put as much distance between themselves and the physical 677 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: evidence that they've created, which there by the way, there 678 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 1: is a lot. But they tried to do everything they 679 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: can to separate themselves from it. 680 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,720 Speaker 3: But because of the personal relationships they all had their DNA, 681 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 3: they're here. Things like that would be realistically expected to 682 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 3: be found in these locations. Number one, number two, the 683 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 3: Wagoners carried on as grieving friends. They went to the 684 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 3: funerals and cried at the funerals and lived that life 685 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 3: for a while. They actually it took years of developing 686 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 3: the story. We now know it, as you say, the 687 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 3: Monday morning quarterback or hindsight, now that we know what 688 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 3: actually transpired, because Jake told us, I don't know how 689 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 3: much was really put together in the initials beginning of 690 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 3: this investigation based on drugs, cockfighting, surveillance, cameras set up everywhere, 691 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 3: multiple grow locations, and you have to wind through all 692 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 3: of this to get down to wait a minute, it 693 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 3: really comes down to two teenagers that have a child. 694 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 3: They break up, and as they're moving on to different relationships, 695 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 3: the boy doesn't like the girl dating some of the 696 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 3: guys and he uses his daughter to say she's going 697 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,359 Speaker 3: to put my daughter in harm's way, and that escalates 698 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 3: into the only way I'm going to get my daughter 699 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 3: out of out of harm's way is by killing the 700 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,919 Speaker 3: mother and by the way, anybody else that can tie 701 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 3: me and my family to this crime, which is exactly 702 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 3: what they proved happened. 703 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's the thing, isn't it. It's as these 704 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: individuals are traveling through that dark night where maybe they're 705 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: all together in a vehicle, and they're traveling out to 706 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: kill these individuals, and they've killed maybe the first group 707 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:40,320 Speaker 1: of people, maybe they've killed Chris. Their adrenaline is pumping. 708 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: Now they've got to go to the next one, and 709 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: then the next one. What do you say to one 710 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: another in those quiet moments. Maybe you've got a bit 711 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: of blood on your clothes, Maybe you can still smell 712 00:43:55,239 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 1: the burned gunpowder on yourself. Maybe maybe just for a second, 713 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: you can hear a scream that still echoes in your ear. 714 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: Or here's someone begging for their life. I don't know. Again, 715 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: words fail me. The only way I can really say is, 716 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 1: I don't know how you take the measure of such evil. 717 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: I have no idea. I hope that you'll please join 718 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: me on the Oxygen Channel on the twenty fourth of 719 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: November at eight pm Eastern, seven pm Central for the 720 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:42,360 Speaker 1: Pike County Murders, A family massacre I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 721 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks.