WEBVTT - #128 Jason Flom with Nick Yarris in Times of COVID 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:07.160 Welcome back to our mini series Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:10.879 In the time of COVID, you know, social distancing orders 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:13.119 were put in place well over a month ago, and 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:15.960 on top of the tragic loss of life, we're starting 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.160 to see the effects of isolation and restricted movement as 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:22.959 they make their impact. For many, there's the specter going 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:27.280 without basic necessities when their businesses can't bear the idle time, 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:30.800 or when stimulus money runs dry when they can't get unemployment. 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:37.640 But for those incarcerated, a potential death sentence looms as 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:41.199 a very real possibility as they have no way of 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:46.280 social distancing in our overcrowded prisons. And yet some people 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:50.640 on the outside are ignoring the necessary precautions and even 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.240 going so far as to demand an ill advised and 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:59.360 straight crazy returned to business as usual. Clearly the advice 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:02.000 of our experts, it's from the wrongfully convicted community as 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:06.440 now more necessary, even essential than ever previously. We spoke 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.039 to Damien Echols and Amanda Knox about the importance of 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.679 structuring your time, keeping an exercise regimen, cleanliness, focusing the 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.959 mind inward, and they gave us tips on combating the 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.520 absence of physical touch, and this is really important holding 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:25.080 on to our senses of humor. This week we will 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.760 talk to a man who was not only sentenced to 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.960 death for a crime he didn't commit, but who also 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.040 unintentionally do you not going to leave this escape from 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:38.640 death Row only to return to some new, fresh version 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.880 of hell now? He tells us about how the current 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.200 state of affairs reminds him of his experiences on death Row, 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:51.600 how he overcame his anger, escaped into literature, and about 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.680 the detrimental role that the ego plays on our respective 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.240 abilities to deal with being in our own versions of Lockdown. 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.400 You can hear his entire story of triumph over tragedy 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.520 in an episode so insane that we had to break 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.680 it into two parts for episode five of season nine. 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.880 He's the author of Monsters and Madmen, the star of 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.400 the documentary film The Fear of Thirteen. But mostly he's 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:21.240 our friend, nick Yarris on Coping in the time of COVID. 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:29.440 Nick Yaris is here. 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:31.760 Thank you for having me back on. It's a real 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:33.919 honor to do this at a time that we're all 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.400 struggling to handle Lockdown. 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:38.079 You're up in Oregon, right. 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:42.000 Yeah, I'm in a small town on the coast of Oregon, 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.200 just above California, and we're blessed by having only six 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:47.799 thousand people in the population. 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:54.000 Well, Nick, you survived death row in Pennsylvania at a 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:58.120 time when it was so brutal. So you've been to 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:02.200 hell and back and now here you are in the 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:07.280 free world and experiencing a much milder, shall we say, 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.000 sort of lockdown. But is it triggering for you to 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.920 have to be sort of, you know, stationary and not 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.000 have the freedom of movement that you've enjoyed now for 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:16.000 so many years. 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:22.120 It's actually reinvigorating all of my lessons learned from it. 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.720 I had to replace the structure in my life when 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:30.040 my life hit a brick wall. When I was getting 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.560 no new sensory input in my daily life to have 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.720 memories of interactions with others, it was killing me. Initially 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:44.360 I had no structure, and I realized that that learning 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:48.480 process of giving myself structure every day while being locked 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.680 in a six x nine cell has come back and 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:56.400 rebounded again now to point towards Oh, okay, I'm okay 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.160 with this. So I used it to set up the 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.040 structure for the children in the house to have their school. 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.800 We built them a little classroom. We're trying to have 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:11.360 everything regimented because structure keeps the mind healthy. 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.160 And how are you doing now? 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:19.840 Right now? The worst thing that I'm facing, I guess 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.920 is the same thing we're all facing. We have worry 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.240 in our heart, our loves ones. We consider it aside 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.159 for ourselves, but we struggle with worryment for everyone. From 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.520 a farm. My dad is eighty five years old. He 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:39.040 goes over and he picks up the newspaper every day, 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:42.159 and he refuses to stop living his life, and he 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.040 won't put on a mask. He said, I've lived through 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:49.400 war and terrorism. I lived through all the worst things 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.599 in life. If God wanted me, he would have gotten 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.640 me sooner. I'm not going to stop living my life. 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:57.200 But I'm not going to be a fool. 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.800 Yeah. I think a lot of people are experiencing right now. 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.960 You know, we're all having a tough time with the isolation, 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.279 but some of the people in our lives are not 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.839 taking all of the precautions. For some, the issue is 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.839 economic desperation, but for others, they feel like their rights 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.200 are being infringed, rather than that this is temporary and 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.760 for the common good, And I mean you actually had 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:27.600 your freedom stolen without cause? So how did you persevere? 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:32.640 What was the key for you that allowed you to, 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:39.120 you know, transcend? It's probably the right word. This unbelievably 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.280 terrible environment. And how can those lessons be applied for 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:46.039 people who now are at home frustrated, no work, no 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:53.000 recreation activities, stuck in the walls, closing in, money tight 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.080 all the other pressures that people are experiencing. How can 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.880 your experience help them? 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:04.039 In real time? I'm doing it with everyone in that 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.880 same feeling that I had on death Row, And it 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.320 goes back to a very terrible night in November of 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.920 nineteen eighty nine when Huntington Prison was set on fire 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.279 during a riot and I was locked up in the 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.599 death row housing unit two hundred and twenty five of 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.480 us all went quiet as we watched the prisoners across 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.760 the courtyard burn the block across from us, knowing that 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.520 the building structure was connected and it was going to 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.840 set us on fire, and the guards had already left us. 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.560 So you sit there in those moments with this fear 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:49.080 in your chest, like is this real? Is this how 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.040 it ends? And my next what will happen? How can 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:57.240 I have control over these feelings? And right now our 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:01.359 whole world is feeling this way. We didn't do anything 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:05.960 to be put in lockdown. Why are we here enduring 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.120 these fears when this had nothing to do with it. 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:14.080 We didn't cause this mayhem around us, but we're suffering 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.920 through it? How do we deal with it? And the 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.480 one thing that kept me going through it all was 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:25.360 I refuse to give up my humanity. My kindness was 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.360 so important to me that I refused to feed the 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.160 negative cycle, just like feeding into the negative news cycles 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:38.600 now in today's social media, I refuse to feed into 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:43.080 the negative, believing that good was the only way going forward. 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.000 And if I believed in that, then I could wake 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.800 this out, see how it plays out, and remember that 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.880 it's a humbling for me. And I swear to God 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.280 that death row experience is playing out right now in 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:56.040 my life with me. 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.600 There must have been times, Dick, I mean, you were 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.760 Franks for a crime that they knew you didn't commit. 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.680 Your life is in danger every day, not just from 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.840 being executed, but from being beaten to death by guards, 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:14.080 other inmates, all the other deprivations. There must have been 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:15.360 moments when you felt bitter. 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:21.240 No oh yeah, oh, Jason, I don't want to misplace 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:25.320 this truth. But in my early days I was so 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.400 bitter about having nothing that I would beat my head 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:34.080 on the wall so hard by slamming it backwards into 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:38.120 the wall. It was the only way I felt like 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:42.160 I could keep going if I stayed angry. In first, 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.240 I was consumed by the insult done to me and 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.760 my family to be sentenced to death for a crime, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.720 for a murder of a woman I never met in 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.960 my life. To have my parents cry and humiliation in 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.520 the courtroom while the people taunted them and laughed in 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:05.320 their face. I was so angry that I thought the 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.160 only way I'm gould get through this is if I 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:12.000 stay angry. And it consumed me, and I was so 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.960 ashamed of that that it was only because of a 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:21.480 miracle chance encounter. A man hung himself on my prison block. 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.120 His cell was empty. The guards took me out of 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.400 my cell to take me to the nurses station to 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:33.080 patch my head up again. I'm walking back and the 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.960 guard says to me, go in that cell and get 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:40.160 them books. He said, I'll keep you from being angry 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:46.440 from somehow that moment, that chance encounter, I decided to 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.320 try to stop being angry. And it was really hard 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.880 to stop being angry. How embarrassing that I was so 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:57.080 consumed by anger that I couldn't read more than a 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.600 few pages. I started to pray for or a way 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:05.160 to figure out how to become strong enough to handle 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:11.240 this without anger and bitterness, and I couldn't articulate much. 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.080 I didn't have the fluidity of a beautiful vernacular that 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:20.120 would come later. So I stripped all the photographs off 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.000 the wall, and I put a photograph of myself up, 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.640 and I began to politely speak to the image before 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:32.800 me of myself, hoping to give myself enough respect, love 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.720 and encouragement, because that was the person that had to 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:44.000 get me through this life. And in this transition, I 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:48.840 found this wonderful sense that maybe if I stopped and 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.320 looked at who I was for one minute, maybe I 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:57.800 could possibly just hopefully love myself. That's all I was 0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:58.319 looking for. 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:04.280 Had it worked, I mean, had you not had that epiphany, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.920 there's no way you would be here today. You would 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.360 have almost certainly died in prison, Like I said, either 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.160 at the hands of the state or at the hands 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.480 of one of the many people who were trying to 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.559 kill you, and I know those stories. Well. 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.000 The thing I found out, Jason, that really is true. 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.240 I watched I don't know four hundred guys entered the 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.600 prison system on death row, particularly on death row from 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.880 a member of the DuPont family. On down. You know, 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.199 people of high ilk suffer the worse when they go 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:43.120 into lockdown. So the analogy is, the bigger the ego, 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.680 the harder it is to be in lockdown. How much 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.520 of an affront is all of this to you? Is 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.640 a measure of your ego, and it will attack your health. 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:59.040 It will cause you to undo every good bond in 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:03.800 your life. Some people can't really handle this because they're 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.280 fucking egos so out of control that they really are 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:11.280 affronted by this. How dare I, as an American have 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.720 to sit in my house for four weeks because some 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:18.640 Chinese person ate a bat like this is real? People 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:22.319 are walking around in this country with the notion that 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.920 this is an affront to them in their lives, when 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.679 in fact they're being taught how to be more polite, 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.920 how to be less germ spreading, how in the future 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:39.240 to be more consistently conscientious of your own public health, 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.000 and yet it's such an angry moment for so many people. 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.240 You mentioned Nick about serving time with one of the 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.199 DuPont heirs. Can you talk about how did he adapt it? 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.600 Was he able to somehow or other turn a corner 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:02.400 like you did. 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.400 It's amazing how it has to have the humbling first. 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.480 A lot of people who do well in society, when 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:15.040 they hit prison, they just break down. And it happened 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:18.680 with John DuPont, it happened with others who were very 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.679 well to do in society because their ego is inflated 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:27.239 in life to the stature of how they live. Imagine 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.079 one of these super wealthy people going from a yacht 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:36.160 to the prison house. Man. It is such a demoralizing 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:41.400 downfall that they can't handle that. Jason. The one answer 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:46.120 to the trouble people have when they acknowledge their ego, 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:51.240 if they can acknowledge their ego, is what is your outlet. 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:57.760 You can't mindlessly look at screens, you can't endlessly go 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.600 on social media. That's going to burn you out really quick. 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.200 This is why I'm so grateful I can go back 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:08.440 to my first love of reading. I love books for 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:13.079 one thing, each one taught me a different aspect of myself. 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.840 And if I go back and read one now, I 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.600 realized the changes of who I was at the time 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:21.960 that I read it the first time to now. 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.920 Is there a particular book or was there a particular 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:30.320 book that meant the most to you that others may 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:31.600 be able to benefit from? 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.400 Great question, because one of the things that I recently 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:39.640 did was I picked up The Prophet by Khalil Gebraun 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:44.600 and this is my touchstone book. This book was my 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:50.000 present at Christmas. I rewarded myself by rereading this one 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:55.400 work because I felt so akin to its main character, 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.800 al Mustafa, the Chosen who spent twelve years within a waltz, 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.920 and on the day of his leaving, he was asked 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:07.920 by everyone to give them parting wisdom knowledge of what 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:13.000 he experienced. And the reason I did this is because 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.400 I was so angry. At first. I thought it was flimsy, flamsley, 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.920 flusy bullshit, and I didn't like it, and I threw 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.440 it against the wall. My mind was so scrambled, I 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.320 thought this was crazy. Why would I bother reading this crap. 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.840 It wasn't until about two years later when I had 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.840 the fluidity in my mind to really absorb that. I 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:38.880 found Gabron's work so uplifting. So I sat down and 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.280 I opened up the book, and I was so rewarded 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:47.760 with this beauty of this writing. You see, Gabron suffered 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:52.120 through the tragedy of losing all of his family members 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:57.520 to another plague. It was called tuberculosis, and his family 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.360 moved to the Boston area from leban On, and he 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.480 was enraptured with trying to hold down the family farm 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:10.360 in Lebanon while migrating back and forth to Boston on 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:15.520 these ships, and his whole family perished during a three 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.240 year period of his life while he wrote The Prophet. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:25.320 That's why I loved him. He took the worst tragedies 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.359 of his life and turned it into the most beautiful 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.680 book he could think of and gave that to the world. 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:36.840 That is what I make the analogy today of today's 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:44.760 COVD hero was my personal hero. Khalil Gebraun. Picking up 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.600 that book the other day meant so much to me 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.920 because it reinvigorated that touch, that field, that smell of art. 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.400 There's nothing like it. Man. The other thing I wanted 0:16:55.440 --> 0:17:00.080 to touch on about reading is this right now, studies have 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.840 shown that we read on average about two hundred books 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:09.960 a year in social media messaging of reading other people's words, 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.639 we read them in snippets and you know, five and 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:17.840 ten minute bounds. But we're not really reading the books 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.879 that we should be reading. And this is where a 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.840 lot of times we have to recognize we have to 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:30.520 implement actual time away from a screen and into enjoying 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:34.480 art and literature the way it's meant to be. We're 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.680 doing it anyway, and it's a loss to us because 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.960 we would rather sit there and watch the left and 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.840 right argue about what's right or people's opinions, than to 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.200 absorb some really cool literature and feel good about yourself. 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:54.640 Like I couldn't imagine sitting there day after day on 0:17:55.880 --> 0:18:00.640 a retort to someone else's reply to someone else's words 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.720 and an argument about a conspiracy in all this crap, 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:08.080 when I could be enjoying something truly invigorating from my brain. 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.000 That's how we do this. My prison guards would walk 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:17.040 past me and I would be so happy, so uplifted, 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:22.960 so alive. They thought I was mentally off. It wasn't 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.639 just that I read, and therefore I was absorbing things 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.680 I left prison behind. 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:42.880 So I want to talk to you about another innocent 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.440 man that you met on death row in Pennsylvania way 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:47.720 back in nineteen ninety nine. And of course you know 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:52.520 I'm referring to Walter Ogrid. Just before this lockdown started, 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.240 you were on your way to Philadelphia to fight for him, right. 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:01.720 I started out trying to drive across this country in 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.200 a pickup truck to go get my friend Walter Ogrod 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.320 out of death row after twenty eight years of being 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:12.200 on death row wrongly, having the mother of the victim 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.280 begging for his release, and all this only to be 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.600 stopped cold by the judge. And I would have been 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.840 still in Philadelphia begging for his release had I not 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:27.320 listened to wisdom better than my own. Honestly, lately, I'm 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:32.320 just I keep thinking about my friend Gregory Ogrid, Walter's brother. 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.880 Now that Anne Marie Fahey, the mother of the victim, 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.680 the little girl who my friend Walter Ogrod was falsely 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:47.960 convicted of murdering, is begging for Walter's release. He kept saying, Man, 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.960 she's such a huge Bruce Springsteen fan. Can I do 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:55.240 anything to try and get her? A signed CD from 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.879 Bruce that's all he wants to do. This is a 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.959 man who suffers from his brother being on death row 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.560 right now for a crime that he didn't commit for 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:10.439 the last twenty eight years, and his main concern is 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.520 trying to show grace to the mother of the victim 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:18.240 for her efforts to show grace to his brother. That's 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.480 why I keep thinking about Jason. Isn't it wonderful that 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.920 in the height of this horrible thing that we're going through, 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:30.280 so many good things are shining. Like Greg gives me 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.879 so much hope because he's not allowing all of this 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:38.520 negativity of his brother being cheated from being released to 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:43.000 affect him from finding a way to go forward with 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:47.760 good for his brother. And you know, I'm so inspired 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:51.560 by you. And it's another thing I have to tell 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:56.240 you this man I struggled before I met you. No 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:01.880 one with your stature has given me any respect. I've 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.879 done podcast around the world, but that's a moment for 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:12.080 that person. Sir. You're the only sincere friend that has 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.679 stayed true throughout this process, and it's because of you 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:19.800 I'm going to keep standing up strong and making these 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.480 efforts for people to see. This is the message right 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:27.359 here Jason, you and me man, showing people that you 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:29.640 might be in New York and I might be in Oregon, 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:31.679 but I fucking love you, man, and I love the 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.199 effort you make for other people. And good is going 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.280 to win, and you believe it and I believe it, 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.919 and that's why we're here today, so that all of 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.400 us right now, if you hear my voice and you're 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:46.720 struggling to handle this, we get it, man, and we 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.240 love you for it. And reach out to someone. Do 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:53.040 the nice thing, man, don't reach out and tell your woes. 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.520 Reach out and be someone else's answered prayer. Be the 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.240 uplifting moment they need, and you'll feel so much much 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:01.160 better for yourself. 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:06.879 And Nick, I'm really touched. And you know you're someone 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.400 who I look up to and I draw a tremendous 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:14.120 amount of inspiration from. So I love YouTube brother, and 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:18.240 we will continue to fight this fight together. We will 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.320 bring Walter home and we're going to go get Bruce 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.440 Springsteen's autograph for that wonderful woman who has been through 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.840 such hardship and tragedy and is now showing such grace. 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:30.840 As you said, so. 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.520 Yeah, and I like the one thing that you continue 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:37.280 to do on the social media, you continue to share 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:42.520 positive messaging that uplifts people or relieves them of the 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:47.439 stress with good neuroplasticity posts. I love it that you 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:50.280 always started the same way. I didn't know how much 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:53.000 I needed to see a giraffe hug a donky, but 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.520 there it is, you know what I mean, and that 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:00.240 really matters to someone. Jason. You're doing your part and 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:03.680 that's what people need to hear. Those little things mean 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.560 something to someone somewhere, even if you didn't notice it, 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:10.880 and that's what we got to keep alive. Yeah. 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:15.760 Amen, brother. So again, Nick, thank you for sharing your thoughts. 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:20.119 You never cease to amaze me, and I appreciate our 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:24.000 friendship more than words can say. You know, I feel 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:26.240 like you've already shared your words of wisdom with us, 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:29.760 So I'm just going to say stay safe and I'll 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:32.439 be looking forward to seeing and working with you as 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:34.000 soon as we're allowed to travel. 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.040 Again. Thank you for having me on and I'm really 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:37.760 grateful to you. 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:44.879 It never fails whenever I speak to Nick. I learned 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:48.280 so much and one of the most interesting things I 0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:51.120 just learned. I mean, we all know the importance of literature, 0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:54.400 but we tend to, you know, neglect it or take 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:58.600 it for granted sometimes. But from Nick, I learned that 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:02.320 we read the equivalent of two hundred books a year 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:05.040 in terms of the total number of words that we consume, 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:09.919 but we consume them in such sort of trite ways, 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:15.120 right on social media and little bites. But reading real art, 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.760 reading some of the classics is something that so many 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:20.320 people who were wrongfully convicted, so many of our x 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:23.160 hoonerary community have told me that's one of the things 0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:26.720 that got them through as Nick did, that lifted their spirits, 0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:32.400 even turned their whole you know, mojo around was reading 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:35.240 Victor frankel Man Search for Meaning or some of the 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:37.880 other classics the Prophet. Do you hear these things come 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:40.760 up over and over again. You know, if I learned 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:46.120 anything talking to Nick, it's stay positive and always be kind. 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:49.600 Nick practice is radical kindness, and I think we can 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:52.720 all take something from that. I mean, right now, more 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:54.560 than ever, I think it's a time when we can 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:59.160 help each other. You could be someone else's you know, lifeline. 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:03.320 Before we go any further, I want to thank all 0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:07.639 our heroes. They've always been heroes, but now they're finally 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:11.480 being recognized as such. And by that I mean, of course, 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:15.760 our healthcare providers, all the essential workers, the grocery store people, 0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:21.639 that delivery people, everybody who is helping us to keep going, 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:25.840 risking their own safety to keep society from coming apart. 0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:30.280 So in the meantime, I hope you've been listening and 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:32.800 hearing Laura and I Writer and Steve Drissen as they 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:35.720 shed light on why someone would ever admit to a 0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:40.560 crime they didn't commit in Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'll 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:42.879 be returning with the new season of Wrongful Conviction with 0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:45.800 Jason Floman May and next week we're going to have 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:48.440 a very special guest. I'm going to leave it a mystery, 0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:50.920 but you're going to want to hear this one. So 0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:55.639 come back next week from more alternative perspective on life 0:25:55.960 --> 0:26:01.040 and living in the time of COVID. Don't forget to 0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:04.120 give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, 0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:07.399 it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the 0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:09.960 Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join me in 0:26:10.000 --> 0:26:13.879 supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:17.560 wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org. To learn how 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:20.280