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Speaker 1: Welcome back to our mini series Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 1: In the time of COVID, you know, social distancing orders

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Speaker 1: were put in place well over a month ago, and

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Speaker 1: on top of the tragic loss of life, we're starting

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Speaker 1: to see the effects of isolation and restricted movement as

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Speaker 1: they make their impact. For many, there's the specter going

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Speaker 1: without basic necessities when their businesses can't bear the idle time,

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Speaker 1: or when stimulus money runs dry when they can't get unemployment.

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Speaker 1: But for those incarcerated, a potential death sentence looms as

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Speaker 1: a very real possibility as they have no way of

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Speaker 1: social distancing in our overcrowded prisons. And yet some people

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Speaker 1: on the outside are ignoring the necessary precautions and even

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Speaker 1: going so far as to demand an ill advised and

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Speaker 1: straight crazy returned to business as usual. Clearly the advice

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Speaker 1: of our experts, it's from the wrongfully convicted community as

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Speaker 1: now more necessary, even essential than ever previously. We spoke

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Speaker 1: to Damien Echols and Amanda Knox about the importance of

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Speaker 1: structuring your time, keeping an exercise regimen, cleanliness, focusing the

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Speaker 1: mind inward, and they gave us tips on combating the

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Speaker 1: absence of physical touch, and this is really important holding

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Speaker 1: on to our senses of humor. This week we will

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Speaker 1: talk to a man who was not only sentenced to

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Speaker 1: death for a crime he didn't commit, but who also

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Speaker 1: unintentionally do you not going to leave this escape from

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Speaker 1: death Row only to return to some new, fresh version

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Speaker 1: of hell now? He tells us about how the current

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Speaker 1: state of affairs reminds him of his experiences on death Row,

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Speaker 1: how he overcame his anger, escaped into literature, and about

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Speaker 1: the detrimental role that the ego plays on our respective

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Speaker 1: abilities to deal with being in our own versions of Lockdown.

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Speaker 1: You can hear his entire story of triumph over tragedy

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Speaker 1: in an episode so insane that we had to break

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Speaker 1: it into two parts for episode five of season nine.

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Speaker 1: He's the author of Monsters and Madmen, the star of

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Speaker 1: the documentary film The Fear of Thirteen. But mostly he's

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Speaker 1: our friend, nick Yarris on Coping in the time of COVID.

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Speaker 1: Nick Yaris is here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me back on. It's a real

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Speaker 2: honor to do this at a time that we're all

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Speaker 2: struggling to handle Lockdown.

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Speaker 1: You're up in Oregon, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm in a small town on the coast of Oregon,

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Speaker 2: just above California, and we're blessed by having only six

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Speaker 2: thousand people in the population.

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Speaker 1: Well, Nick, you survived death row in Pennsylvania at a

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Speaker 1: time when it was so brutal. So you've been to

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Speaker 1: hell and back and now here you are in the

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Speaker 1: free world and experiencing a much milder, shall we say,

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Speaker 1: sort of lockdown. But is it triggering for you to

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Speaker 1: have to be sort of, you know, stationary and not

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Speaker 1: have the freedom of movement that you've enjoyed now for

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Speaker 1: so many years.

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Speaker 2: It's actually reinvigorating all of my lessons learned from it.

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Speaker 2: I had to replace the structure in my life when

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Speaker 2: my life hit a brick wall. When I was getting

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Speaker 2: no new sensory input in my daily life to have

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Speaker 2: memories of interactions with others, it was killing me. Initially

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Speaker 2: I had no structure, and I realized that that learning

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Speaker 2: process of giving myself structure every day while being locked

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Speaker 2: in a six x nine cell has come back and

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Speaker 2: rebounded again now to point towards Oh, okay, I'm okay

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Speaker 2: with this. So I used it to set up the

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Speaker 2: structure for the children in the house to have their school.

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Speaker 2: We built them a little classroom. We're trying to have

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Speaker 2: everything regimented because structure keeps the mind healthy.

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Speaker 1: And how are you doing now?

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Speaker 2: Right now? The worst thing that I'm facing, I guess

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Speaker 2: is the same thing we're all facing. We have worry

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Speaker 2: in our heart, our loves ones. We consider it aside

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Speaker 2: for ourselves, but we struggle with worryment for everyone. From

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Speaker 2: a farm. My dad is eighty five years old. He

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Speaker 2: goes over and he picks up the newspaper every day,

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Speaker 2: and he refuses to stop living his life, and he

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Speaker 2: won't put on a mask. He said, I've lived through

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Speaker 2: war and terrorism. I lived through all the worst things

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Speaker 2: in life. If God wanted me, he would have gotten

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Speaker 2: me sooner. I'm not going to stop living my life.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not going to be a fool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think a lot of people are experiencing right now.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're all having a tough time with the isolation,

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Speaker 1: but some of the people in our lives are not

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Speaker 1: taking all of the precautions. For some, the issue is

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Speaker 1: economic desperation, but for others, they feel like their rights

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Speaker 1: are being infringed, rather than that this is temporary and

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Speaker 1: for the common good, And I mean you actually had

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Speaker 1: your freedom stolen without cause? So how did you persevere?

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Speaker 1: What was the key for you that allowed you to,

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Speaker 1: you know, transcend? It's probably the right word. This unbelievably

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Speaker 1: terrible environment. And how can those lessons be applied for

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Speaker 1: people who now are at home frustrated, no work, no

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Speaker 1: recreation activities, stuck in the walls, closing in, money tight

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Speaker 1: all the other pressures that people are experiencing. How can

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Speaker 1: your experience help them?

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Speaker 2: In real time? I'm doing it with everyone in that

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Speaker 2: same feeling that I had on death Row, And it

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Speaker 2: goes back to a very terrible night in November of

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine when Huntington Prison was set on fire

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Speaker 2: during a riot and I was locked up in the

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Speaker 2: death row housing unit two hundred and twenty five of

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Speaker 2: us all went quiet as we watched the prisoners across

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Speaker 2: the courtyard burn the block across from us, knowing that

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Speaker 2: the building structure was connected and it was going to

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Speaker 2: set us on fire, and the guards had already left us.

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Speaker 2: So you sit there in those moments with this fear

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Speaker 2: in your chest, like is this real? Is this how

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Speaker 2: it ends? And my next what will happen? How can

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Speaker 2: I have control over these feelings? And right now our

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Speaker 2: whole world is feeling this way. We didn't do anything

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Speaker 2: to be put in lockdown. Why are we here enduring

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Speaker 2: these fears when this had nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 2: We didn't cause this mayhem around us, but we're suffering

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Speaker 2: through it? How do we deal with it? And the

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Speaker 2: one thing that kept me going through it all was

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Speaker 2: I refuse to give up my humanity. My kindness was

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Speaker 2: so important to me that I refused to feed the

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Speaker 2: negative cycle, just like feeding into the negative news cycles

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Speaker 2: now in today's social media, I refuse to feed into

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Speaker 2: the negative, believing that good was the only way going forward.

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Speaker 2: And if I believed in that, then I could wake

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Speaker 2: this out, see how it plays out, and remember that

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Speaker 2: it's a humbling for me. And I swear to God

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Speaker 2: that death row experience is playing out right now in

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Speaker 2: my life with me.

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Speaker 1: There must have been times, Dick, I mean, you were

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Speaker 1: Franks for a crime that they knew you didn't commit.

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Speaker 1: Your life is in danger every day, not just from

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Speaker 1: being executed, but from being beaten to death by guards,

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Speaker 1: other inmates, all the other deprivations. There must have been

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Speaker 1: moments when you felt bitter.

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Speaker 2: No oh yeah, oh, Jason, I don't want to misplace

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Speaker 2: this truth. But in my early days I was so

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Speaker 2: bitter about having nothing that I would beat my head

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Speaker 2: on the wall so hard by slamming it backwards into

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Speaker 2: the wall. It was the only way I felt like

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Speaker 2: I could keep going if I stayed angry. In first,

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Speaker 2: I was consumed by the insult done to me and

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Speaker 2: my family to be sentenced to death for a crime,

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Speaker 2: for a murder of a woman I never met in

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Speaker 2: my life. To have my parents cry and humiliation in

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Speaker 2: the courtroom while the people taunted them and laughed in

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Speaker 2: their face. I was so angry that I thought the

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Speaker 2: only way I'm gould get through this is if I

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Speaker 2: stay angry. And it consumed me, and I was so

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Speaker 2: ashamed of that that it was only because of a

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Speaker 2: miracle chance encounter. A man hung himself on my prison block.

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Speaker 2: His cell was empty. The guards took me out of

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Speaker 2: my cell to take me to the nurses station to

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Speaker 2: patch my head up again. I'm walking back and the

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Speaker 2: guard says to me, go in that cell and get

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Speaker 2: them books. He said, I'll keep you from being angry

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Speaker 2: from somehow that moment, that chance encounter, I decided to

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Speaker 2: try to stop being angry. And it was really hard

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Speaker 2: to stop being angry. How embarrassing that I was so

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Speaker 2: consumed by anger that I couldn't read more than a

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Speaker 2: few pages. I started to pray for or a way

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Speaker 2: to figure out how to become strong enough to handle

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Speaker 2: this without anger and bitterness, and I couldn't articulate much.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have the fluidity of a beautiful vernacular that

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Speaker 2: would come later. So I stripped all the photographs off

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Speaker 2: the wall, and I put a photograph of myself up,

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Speaker 2: and I began to politely speak to the image before

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Speaker 2: me of myself, hoping to give myself enough respect, love

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Speaker 2: and encouragement, because that was the person that had to

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Speaker 2: get me through this life. And in this transition, I

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Speaker 2: found this wonderful sense that maybe if I stopped and

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Speaker 2: looked at who I was for one minute, maybe I

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Speaker 2: could possibly just hopefully love myself. That's all I was

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Speaker 2: looking for.

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Speaker 1: Had it worked, I mean, had you not had that epiphany,

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Speaker 1: there's no way you would be here today. You would

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Speaker 1: have almost certainly died in prison, Like I said, either

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Speaker 1: at the hands of the state or at the hands

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Speaker 1: of one of the many people who were trying to

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Speaker 1: kill you, and I know those stories. Well.

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Speaker 2: The thing I found out, Jason, that really is true.

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Speaker 2: I watched I don't know four hundred guys entered the

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Speaker 2: prison system on death row, particularly on death row from

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Speaker 2: a member of the DuPont family. On down. You know,

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Speaker 2: people of high ilk suffer the worse when they go

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Speaker 2: into lockdown. So the analogy is, the bigger the ego,

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Speaker 2: the harder it is to be in lockdown. How much

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Speaker 2: of an affront is all of this to you? Is

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Speaker 2: a measure of your ego, and it will attack your health.

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Speaker 2: It will cause you to undo every good bond in

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Speaker 2: your life. Some people can't really handle this because they're

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Speaker 2: fucking egos so out of control that they really are

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Speaker 2: affronted by this. How dare I, as an American have

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Speaker 2: to sit in my house for four weeks because some

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Speaker 2: Chinese person ate a bat like this is real? People

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Speaker 2: are walking around in this country with the notion that

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Speaker 2: this is an affront to them in their lives, when

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Speaker 2: in fact they're being taught how to be more polite,

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Speaker 2: how to be less germ spreading, how in the future

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Speaker 2: to be more consistently conscientious of your own public health,

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Speaker 2: and yet it's such an angry moment for so many people.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned Nick about serving time with one of the

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Speaker 1: DuPont heirs. Can you talk about how did he adapt it?

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Speaker 1: Was he able to somehow or other turn a corner

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Speaker 1: like you did.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing how it has to have the humbling first.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people who do well in society, when

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Speaker 2: they hit prison, they just break down. And it happened

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Speaker 2: with John DuPont, it happened with others who were very

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Speaker 2: well to do in society because their ego is inflated

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Speaker 2: in life to the stature of how they live. Imagine

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Speaker 2: one of these super wealthy people going from a yacht

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Speaker 2: to the prison house. Man. It is such a demoralizing

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Speaker 2: downfall that they can't handle that. Jason. The one answer

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Speaker 2: to the trouble people have when they acknowledge their ego,

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Speaker 2: if they can acknowledge their ego, is what is your outlet.

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Speaker 2: You can't mindlessly look at screens, you can't endlessly go

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Speaker 2: on social media. That's going to burn you out really quick.

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Speaker 2: This is why I'm so grateful I can go back

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Speaker 2: to my first love of reading. I love books for

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Speaker 2: one thing, each one taught me a different aspect of myself.

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Speaker 2: And if I go back and read one now, I

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Speaker 2: realized the changes of who I was at the time

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Speaker 2: that I read it the first time to now.

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Speaker 1: Is there a particular book or was there a particular

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Speaker 1: book that meant the most to you that others may

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Speaker 1: be able to benefit from?

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Speaker 2: Great question, because one of the things that I recently

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Speaker 2: did was I picked up The Prophet by Khalil Gebraun

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Speaker 2: and this is my touchstone book. This book was my

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Speaker 2: present at Christmas. I rewarded myself by rereading this one

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Speaker 2: work because I felt so akin to its main character,

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Speaker 2: al Mustafa, the Chosen who spent twelve years within a waltz,

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Speaker 2: and on the day of his leaving, he was asked

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Speaker 2: by everyone to give them parting wisdom knowledge of what

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Speaker 2: he experienced. And the reason I did this is because

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Speaker 2: I was so angry. At first. I thought it was flimsy, flamsley,

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Speaker 2: flusy bullshit, and I didn't like it, and I threw

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Speaker 2: it against the wall. My mind was so scrambled, I

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Speaker 2: thought this was crazy. Why would I bother reading this crap.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't until about two years later when I had

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Speaker 2: the fluidity in my mind to really absorb that. I

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Speaker 2: found Gabron's work so uplifting. So I sat down and

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Speaker 2: I opened up the book, and I was so rewarded

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Speaker 2: with this beauty of this writing. You see, Gabron suffered

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Speaker 2: through the tragedy of losing all of his family members

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Speaker 2: to another plague. It was called tuberculosis, and his family

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Speaker 2: moved to the Boston area from leban On, and he

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Speaker 2: was enraptured with trying to hold down the family farm

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Speaker 2: in Lebanon while migrating back and forth to Boston on

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Speaker 2: these ships, and his whole family perished during a three

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Speaker 2: year period of his life while he wrote The Prophet.

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Speaker 2: That's why I loved him. He took the worst tragedies

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Speaker 2: of his life and turned it into the most beautiful

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Speaker 2: book he could think of and gave that to the world.

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Speaker 2: That is what I make the analogy today of today's

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Speaker 2: COVD hero was my personal hero. Khalil Gebraun. Picking up

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Speaker 2: that book the other day meant so much to me

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Speaker 2: because it reinvigorated that touch, that field, that smell of art.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing like it. Man. The other thing I wanted

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Speaker 2: to touch on about reading is this right now, studies have

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Speaker 2: shown that we read on average about two hundred books

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Speaker 2: a year in social media messaging of reading other people's words,

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Speaker 2: we read them in snippets and you know, five and

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Speaker 2: ten minute bounds. But we're not really reading the books

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Speaker 2: that we should be reading. And this is where a

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Speaker 2: lot of times we have to recognize we have to

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Speaker 2: implement actual time away from a screen and into enjoying

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Speaker 2: art and literature the way it's meant to be. We're

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Speaker 2: doing it anyway, and it's a loss to us because

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Speaker 2: we would rather sit there and watch the left and

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Speaker 2: right argue about what's right or people's opinions, than to

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Speaker 2: absorb some really cool literature and feel good about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Like I couldn't imagine sitting there day after day on

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Speaker 2: a retort to someone else's reply to someone else's words

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Speaker 2: and an argument about a conspiracy in all this crap,

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Speaker 2: when I could be enjoying something truly invigorating from my brain.

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Speaker 2: That's how we do this. My prison guards would walk

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Speaker 2: past me and I would be so happy, so uplifted,

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Speaker 2: so alive. They thought I was mentally off. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: just that I read, and therefore I was absorbing things

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Speaker 2: I left prison behind.

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Speaker 1: So I want to talk to you about another innocent

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Speaker 1: man that you met on death row in Pennsylvania way

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety nine. And of course you know

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Speaker 1: I'm referring to Walter Ogrid. Just before this lockdown started,

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Speaker 1: you were on your way to Philadelphia to fight for him, right.

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Speaker 2: I started out trying to drive across this country in

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Speaker 2: a pickup truck to go get my friend Walter Ogrod

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Speaker 2: out of death row after twenty eight years of being

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Speaker 2: on death row wrongly, having the mother of the victim

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Speaker 2: begging for his release, and all this only to be

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Speaker 2: stopped cold by the judge. And I would have been

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Speaker 2: still in Philadelphia begging for his release had I not

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Speaker 2: listened to wisdom better than my own. Honestly, lately, I'm

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Speaker 2: just I keep thinking about my friend Gregory Ogrid, Walter's brother.

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Speaker 2: Now that Anne Marie Fahey, the mother of the victim,

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Speaker 2: the little girl who my friend Walter Ogrod was falsely

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Speaker 2: convicted of murdering, is begging for Walter's release. He kept saying, Man,

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Speaker 2: she's such a huge Bruce Springsteen fan. Can I do

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Speaker 2: anything to try and get her? A signed CD from

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Speaker 2: Bruce that's all he wants to do. This is a

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Speaker 2: man who suffers from his brother being on death row

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Speaker 2: right now for a crime that he didn't commit for

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Speaker 2: the last twenty eight years, and his main concern is

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Speaker 2: trying to show grace to the mother of the victim

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Speaker 2: for her efforts to show grace to his brother. That's

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Speaker 2: why I keep thinking about Jason. Isn't it wonderful that

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Speaker 2: in the height of this horrible thing that we're going through,

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Speaker 2: so many good things are shining. Like Greg gives me

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Speaker 2: so much hope because he's not allowing all of this

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Speaker 2: negativity of his brother being cheated from being released to

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Speaker 2: affect him from finding a way to go forward with

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Speaker 2: good for his brother. And you know, I'm so inspired

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Speaker 2: by you. And it's another thing I have to tell

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Speaker 2: you this man I struggled before I met you. No

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Speaker 2: one with your stature has given me any respect. I've

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Speaker 2: done podcast around the world, but that's a moment for

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Speaker 2: that person. Sir. You're the only sincere friend that has

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Speaker 2: stayed true throughout this process, and it's because of you

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Speaker 2: I'm going to keep standing up strong and making these

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Speaker 2: efforts for people to see. This is the message right

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Speaker 2: here Jason, you and me man, showing people that you

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Speaker 2: might be in New York and I might be in Oregon,

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Speaker 2: but I fucking love you, man, and I love the

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Speaker 2: effort you make for other people. And good is going

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Speaker 2: to win, and you believe it and I believe it,

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Speaker 2: and that's why we're here today, so that all of

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Speaker 2: us right now, if you hear my voice and you're

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Speaker 2: struggling to handle this, we get it, man, and we

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Speaker 2: love you for it. And reach out to someone. Do

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Speaker 2: the nice thing, man, don't reach out and tell your woes.

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Speaker 2: Reach out and be someone else's answered prayer. Be the

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Speaker 2: uplifting moment they need, and you'll feel so much much

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Speaker 2: better for yourself.

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Speaker 1: And Nick, I'm really touched. And you know you're someone

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Speaker 1: who I look up to and I draw a tremendous

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Speaker 1: amount of inspiration from. So I love YouTube brother, and

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Speaker 1: we will continue to fight this fight together. We will

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Speaker 1: bring Walter home and we're going to go get Bruce

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Speaker 1: Springsteen's autograph for that wonderful woman who has been through

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Speaker 1: such hardship and tragedy and is now showing such grace.

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Speaker 1: As you said, so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I like the one thing that you continue

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Speaker 2: to do on the social media, you continue to share

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Speaker 2: positive messaging that uplifts people or relieves them of the

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Speaker 2: stress with good neuroplasticity posts. I love it that you

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Speaker 2: always started the same way. I didn't know how much

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Speaker 2: I needed to see a giraffe hug a donky, but

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Speaker 2: there it is, you know what I mean, and that

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Speaker 2: really matters to someone. Jason. You're doing your part and

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Speaker 2: that's what people need to hear. Those little things mean

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Speaker 2: something to someone somewhere, even if you didn't notice it,

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Speaker 2: and that's what we got to keep alive. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Amen, brother. So again, Nick, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

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Speaker 1: You never cease to amaze me, and I appreciate our

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Speaker 1: friendship more than words can say. You know, I feel

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Speaker 1: like you've already shared your words of wisdom with us,

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Speaker 1: So I'm just going to say stay safe and I'll

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Speaker 1: be looking forward to seeing and working with you as

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Speaker 1: soon as we're allowed to travel.

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Speaker 2: Again. Thank you for having me on and I'm really

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Speaker 2: grateful to you.

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Speaker 1: It never fails whenever I speak to Nick. I learned

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Speaker 1: so much and one of the most interesting things I

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Speaker 1: just learned. I mean, we all know the importance of literature,

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Speaker 1: but we tend to, you know, neglect it or take

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Speaker 1: it for granted sometimes. But from Nick, I learned that

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Speaker 1: we read the equivalent of two hundred books a year

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Speaker 1: in terms of the total number of words that we consume,

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Speaker 1: but we consume them in such sort of trite ways,

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Speaker 1: right on social media and little bites. But reading real art,

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Speaker 1: reading some of the classics is something that so many

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Speaker 1: people who were wrongfully convicted, so many of our x

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Speaker 1: hoonerary community have told me that's one of the things

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Speaker 1: that got them through as Nick did, that lifted their spirits,

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Speaker 1: even turned their whole you know, mojo around was reading

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Speaker 1: Victor frankel Man Search for Meaning or some of the

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Speaker 1: other classics the Prophet. Do you hear these things come

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Speaker 1: up over and over again. You know, if I learned

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Speaker 1: anything talking to Nick, it's stay positive and always be kind.

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Speaker 1: Nick practice is radical kindness, and I think we can

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Speaker 1: all take something from that. I mean, right now, more

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Speaker 1: than ever, I think it's a time when we can

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Speaker 1: help each other. You could be someone else's you know, lifeline.

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Speaker 1: Before we go any further, I want to thank all

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Speaker 1: our heroes. They've always been heroes, but now they're finally

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Speaker 1: being recognized as such. And by that I mean, of course,

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Speaker 1: our healthcare providers, all the essential workers, the grocery store people,

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Speaker 1: that delivery people, everybody who is helping us to keep going,

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Speaker 1: risking their own safety to keep society from coming apart.

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Speaker 1: So in the meantime, I hope you've been listening and

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Speaker 1: hearing Laura and I Writer and Steve Drissen as they

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Speaker 1: shed light on why someone would ever admit to a

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Speaker 1: crime they didn't commit in Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'll

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Speaker 1: be returning with the new season of Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 1: Jason Floman May and next week we're going to have

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Speaker 1: a very special guest. I'm going to leave it a mystery,

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Speaker 1: but you're going to want to hear this one. So

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Speaker 1: come back next week from more alternative perspective on life

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Speaker 1: and living in the time of COVID. Don't forget to

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Speaker 1: give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 1: it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

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Speaker 1: Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join me in

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Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

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Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org. To learn how

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Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

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Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in

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Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominatede composer Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 2: Be sure to.

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Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook

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Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is

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Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with

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Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one