Speaker 1: And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 1: What's up everyone?
Speaker 2: I am Bucky Brooks and this is Moved the Sticks
Speaker 2: and I'm joined by my guy Lance Zeroline, the man
Speaker 2: who does everything for the website as related to providing
Speaker 2: all the profiles, breaking it all down. How many profiles
Speaker 2: do we knock out this year?
Speaker 1: We only got to like four forty five? My editor
Speaker 1: said he did. He said, don't write guys that can't
Speaker 1: get drafted. I don't want to have to edit them.
Speaker 1: I said, I don't want to have to write them,
Speaker 1: so bet, and we're on the same page.
Speaker 2: I mean, you gotta love that. I appreciate all the
Speaker 2: work because that is man laborious. When it comes to
Speaker 2: like forging and something profiles, that's you know what I'm.
Speaker 1: Gonna tell you. The sneaky tough part is I'm watching
Speaker 1: tape and uh late October for some of these prospects,
Speaker 1: and then early November, and there's two things that are
Speaker 1: really tough. I'm gonna start with the easiest one, where
Speaker 1: you think you have a player based on tape, you
Speaker 1: know his speed or this or that or length or whatever,
Speaker 1: and then you get the measurements or you get that.
Speaker 1: Now we're half to wait til Pro Day for some
Speaker 1: of these guys to run. Xavier's Restrepbo ran a four
Speaker 1: eight forty. I gotta go back and change part of
Speaker 1: my my scotter report to reference his speed, Like you
Speaker 1: have to put that in there, And truth be told, Bucky,
Speaker 1: I don't. He probably doesn't get drafted with a four
Speaker 1: eight forty. That's not say he can't make a team,
Speaker 1: but it's real hard for teams to, you know, get
Speaker 1: on board with drafting a shorter slot receiver with a
Speaker 1: four eight forties all he has to his name. And
Speaker 1: so going back and you know, re relooking at and
Speaker 1: retouching up some of the some of the scouting reports,
Speaker 1: some of the strengths and weaknesses I wrote up after
Speaker 1: Pro Day's one thing. But I'll tell you what else
Speaker 1: is tough. I wrote Josh Simmons and he was out
Speaker 1: for the year. So I wrote him in late thirty
Speaker 1: late November, early December, and I run him up. Man,
Speaker 1: this guy is athletic. I like him. I'm gonna give
Speaker 1: him a sixty two that means kind of an average
Speaker 1: starter grade, kind of a two basically. And then you
Speaker 1: finish up the whole class. By the time I'm done
Speaker 1: with the whole class, and you go back and watch
Speaker 1: Josh Shimmons and you get your bearings under you about
Speaker 1: what it all looks like, and you read, you know,
Speaker 1: you get recentered. I went and watch him the other day.
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, this guy is easily a high sixty four.
Speaker 1: Like he's easily the most he's the most talented tackle
Speaker 1: in the draft, easily the most talented tackle. But it's
Speaker 1: different when you watch a guy, you know, in November
Speaker 1: before you've really got a good feel of the whole class.
Speaker 1: And remember, I'm hitting start again basically in October November,
Speaker 1: I'm not. I don't really look in June or July
Speaker 1: like I used to because I just found that it
Speaker 1: kind of was a waste of time. I get an idea,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to. I don't want to cloud
Speaker 1: my process with bias. You know, just looking back at
Speaker 1: some of these guys that like Josh Simmons, that guy
Speaker 1: should be a top six pick realistically, but he's not
Speaker 1: gonna be. You know, Walter Nolan's got some maturity issues.
Speaker 1: That guy's a top ten pick realistically.
Speaker 2: You took me to where I want to go. It's
Speaker 2: time for the winning combination, brought to you by Low's
Speaker 2: and Lance. Like, I kind of wanted to have that
Speaker 2: conversation because what I like to do to kind of
Speaker 2: keep myself honest is like I read a lot of
Speaker 2: the stuff that is on the internet, and someone that
Speaker 2: recently posted kind of like a composite of like they
Speaker 2: talked to a bunch of different scouts and coaches about
Speaker 2: the guys and the names that you know, they made
Speaker 2: a top one hundred and so I always kind of
Speaker 2: like to look at my list compared to somebody else's
Speaker 2: list to see if I had did I have any
Speaker 2: egregious errors? Am I missing somebody? And on this list
Speaker 2: they had Walter Nolan at six And at the end
Speaker 2: of last week I brought walteron Nolan up on path
Speaker 2: to the draft because I kind of dug into his
Speaker 2: background and excuse me for not knowing this, but he
Speaker 2: was the number one recruit in the class when he
Speaker 2: came out, like the same class as Travis Hunter. Walter
Speaker 2: Nolan was number one. So then I was like, well,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, Like I saw the talent. I looked
Speaker 2: at my notes. I liked what I wrote, I had
Speaker 2: him in my like top fifteen. But I'm looking. I'm like,
Speaker 2: let me go back and look at Texas A and M.
Speaker 2: And you're like, oh, whoa, Walter Dolan kind of got
Speaker 2: that that get down. And then you go and you
Speaker 2: look at him play at Ole Miss and you see
Speaker 2: first step quickness, hand you said, you see the penetration.
Speaker 2: You see him flash dominance where he has some takeover
Speaker 2: the game ability. And unfortunately, I would say for us
Speaker 2: in the TV world, man, sometimes we get roped into
Speaker 2: having the same conversations about the same guys, and we
Speaker 2: neglect guys that should have more conversation. And my goal
Speaker 2: this week on Path was, hey, man, we need to
Speaker 2: have this conversation about Walter Nolan being a legitimate guy
Speaker 2: where everyone is kind of pencils in. Mason Graham is like, oh,
Speaker 2: Jackson Milla six, Jackson Milla five, Mason Graham firsty tackle boom.
Speaker 2: Walterton Nolan's gonna go a lot higher than people think.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing I've got him regardless of you know,
Speaker 1: there's like people I talk to at A and M
Speaker 1: said high high maintenance, got some high maintenance stuff to him,
Speaker 1: and look I've been told he is gonna fall. Realistically,
Speaker 1: he's ahead of Coaston Loveland. I've got him fifth in
Speaker 1: this class. You just turn on the tape and watch tape.
Speaker 1: You can't go in any other direction other than Walter
Speaker 1: Nolan is a top defensive tackle on the draft, you
Speaker 1: really can't. I like Mason Graham. He plays hard, but
Speaker 1: I think that he's, you know, kind of a standard
Speaker 1: hard playing defensive tackle that some shorter arms can't really
Speaker 1: long limb his way around guys. As a rusher, Walter
Speaker 1: Nolan is explosive on all three downs. Walter Nolan is
Speaker 1: a guy that can disrupt on first, second, or third down.
Speaker 1: He's you know, he's long, he's quick, he's he's he's
Speaker 1: very physical and aggressive. If we just work off the tape,
Speaker 1: You're right, he does deserve a lot more conversation. I
Speaker 1: don't think I think some of the I think some
Speaker 1: of it is driven by the fact that he may
Speaker 1: not be a top you know, a top ten, top
Speaker 1: fifteen pick, even though his play warrants it. But we
Speaker 1: had this conversation with Jalen Carter. You know, Jalen Carter,
Speaker 1: we had plenty of conversation about Jalen Carter and he
Speaker 1: ended up going tenth. Like Walter Nolan, You're right, we haven't.
Speaker 1: I mean, truth be told Walter Nolan, James Pierce, James
Speaker 1: Pearce yep, and uh, you know Will Johnson because he
Speaker 1: didn't he never ran, so there's gonna be a question
Speaker 1: about his speed. And I'm missing I'm missing one more,
Speaker 1: but there's Josh Simmons. Man, these guys right here you
Speaker 1: could be looking at you know, I don't know what's
Speaker 1: gonna happen Will Johnson, but the other three there's maturity issues,
Speaker 1: some character concerns, whatever the case may be. I mean, realistically,
Speaker 1: those are top I mean we're talking about tops six, eight, twelve.
Speaker 1: And so I ask you this, Bucky, let me flip
Speaker 1: it on you. When as a team do you say,
Speaker 1: are you comfortable enough with my room is strong enough?
Speaker 1: Even if this guy's mature or whatever. Like everyone has
Speaker 1: a different standard or a different breaking point. But I'm
Speaker 1: really curious when somebody says, man, I'm I'm drafting the
Speaker 1: talent and we will, we will work on getting a
Speaker 1: good mentor with this guy. We're going to get a
Speaker 1: plan for him. Because those three guys, I just mentioned
Speaker 1: and Will Johnson is a speed thing, so that that's
Speaker 1: a little different. That's real, real first round, high end
Speaker 1: talent that may slip to the you know, the back
Speaker 1: half of the first round, which is crazy to me.
Speaker 2: Okay, So here's the thing, and here's the challenge on
Speaker 2: our side, right, So a lot of times we're tasked
Speaker 2: with lisk and I just realized that I got to
Speaker 2: do a mock draft today, so I flow through that
Speaker 2: pretty quickly and get that done. So but lance is
Speaker 2: one of the things that I'm always pretty resolute that
Speaker 2: I want to be able to look back at my
Speaker 2: list in three or four years and be able to
Speaker 2: own whatever I put out there in terms of top fives,
Speaker 2: how I got them ranked or whatever, and ignore because
Speaker 2: it's easy on our side to get caught up in well,
Speaker 2: I want the list to reflect what the draft looks
Speaker 2: like in terms of win guys come off the board.
Speaker 2: But that's not the way that it should be done.
Speaker 2: That all of this should be done is in three years,
Speaker 2: how do we expect this guy to impact the league?
Speaker 2: Because that's the line of demarcation when we're great thing,
Speaker 2: the guy is our expansion expectation for how the player
Speaker 2: is going to play by the end of his third
Speaker 2: season in the league. And those guys that you believe
Speaker 2: are going to be stars lack of Jalen Carter. We
Speaker 2: always sit here and talk about, Man, Jalen Carter should
Speaker 2: be the first player in the draft. All the other
Speaker 2: stuff clouded us. And so what has happened for Jalen
Speaker 2: Carter since he's shown up at Philadelphia. He looks like
Speaker 2: the best defensive tackle in ball and that's what the
Speaker 2: grades should have been. It's not really our job to
Speaker 2: deem people for the character stuff, right team's job. My
Speaker 2: job was talking about, well, look, he may fall because
Speaker 2: of his character, but this is the player. The player
Speaker 2: is this and everyone has a different level of tolerance
Speaker 2: for character issues and those things. But as you talked
Speaker 2: about the guys that you name, Nolan, Pierce, Simmons, Johnson,
Speaker 2: all the excellent players, all the worthy of being top
Speaker 2: twelve players based on what they put on tape. Now,
Speaker 2: the other stuff someone else can unpack that. But the
Speaker 2: talent is certainly there. And I feel like for some
Speaker 2: of the guys, man, look, James Pears has become almost
Speaker 2: like a bad word on TV, even though on our
Speaker 2: side we don't have anything to document why he's falling.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And I you know, I keep my grades
Speaker 1: separate from the character stuff. Now I will change round
Speaker 1: projections because that's supposed to be where I think you'll
Speaker 1: go based on league intel. But I mean, i've got
Speaker 1: James Pearce, a is a sixty four, which is a
Speaker 1: true first round player. I've got Josh Shit, you know, Simmons.
Speaker 1: I was just kind of late. Like I said, I
Speaker 1: wrote him too early. Frankly, his grade should be higher,
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to change it. But I got
Speaker 1: him at a borderline first. But I mean, frankly it should.
Speaker 1: You know, my grade should probably be a six four eight,
Speaker 1: which would put him in the neighborhood maybe even higher.
Speaker 1: A sixty five, which is a boombus number because of
Speaker 1: you know, some character or whatever. But I've got Walter
Speaker 1: Nolan up there, I've got James pears like I don't
Speaker 1: mess with I typically don't mess with that stuff because,
Speaker 1: like you said, I've got to just watch the tape
Speaker 1: and put the information that's out there on the tape
Speaker 1: because I know everyone's going to be reading it. And
Speaker 1: what do you say? I got to say strengths and weaknesses.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can put something about character concern and
Speaker 1: maybe my grade, maybe it could be altered a little bit,
Speaker 1: but typically I don't like whatever I see on tape
Speaker 1: is what I see on tape. And you're right, TV mainstream,
Speaker 1: big TV shows, it's a lot of Shador Sanders talk.
Speaker 1: But the reality is Shoudre Sanders is probably not one
Speaker 1: of the you know, I don't know if any of
Speaker 1: the quarterbacks are a top ten player in this draft,
Speaker 1: but guys, we're talking about our guys who are top
Speaker 1: ten talents in this draft though, and they're not talked
Speaker 1: about much.
Speaker 2: And that's the thing that is irritating. The other thing
Speaker 2: that has been irritating about the process. And this isn't
Speaker 2: supposed to be like a thing where we're airing out grievances.
Speaker 2: But let's be real. Like we've talked about Camboard and
Speaker 2: the way that we've talked about him, the way we've
Speaker 2: put him up there, he's gonna go number one. But
Speaker 2: I think everyone should understand cam Ward is not the
Speaker 2: best player in this draft. Like whether you talk about
Speaker 2: Travis Son, Abdua Card or whatever, Ashton Gitty, whatever, but
Speaker 2: like they are multiple guys that are better players, better
Speaker 2: prospects than cam Ward. He may be the first quarterback
Speaker 2: to go and we're going to celebrate him and give
Speaker 2: him his flowers as that. But when we're grading the
Speaker 2: player for the player, there are other players that are
Speaker 2: look at the front of the line when it comes
Speaker 2: to cam Ward. And let's also talk about this because
Speaker 2: of the Shudur Sanders thing or whatever. And even though
Speaker 2: I had him rank like him and cam Ward, to me,
Speaker 2: I get the same grade. I just have a preference
Speaker 2: for Chadur over cam Ward. But let me be honest
Speaker 2: about my grade when it comes to Schaduur in camp
Speaker 2: both of them, I gave bottom of the first round
Speaker 2: grades And the reason why bottom of the first round
Speaker 2: because it's hard to talk about like on TV life
Speaker 2: bottom of the first round. That means you don't like him. No,
Speaker 2: it means what I'm saying is solid starter. That's what
Speaker 2: it means. It doesn't mean that I believe that he
Speaker 2: is going to be an All Pro, superstar, Hall of
Speaker 2: Famer or whatever. It's a solid starter grade. And you're
Speaker 2: a conversation with Ballard or Ryan Poles or anybody in
Speaker 2: the league would tell you, look, man, your great is
Speaker 2: to reflect how you expect them to play, and if
Speaker 2: we're being true to the process. Look, if you told
Speaker 2: me that Shadur Sanders were drafted twenty six by the Rams,
Speaker 2: I was like, that's actually perfect because that's where he
Speaker 2: would be graded at. In most years, he's graded bottom
Speaker 2: of the first round. The Rams are picking there he
Speaker 2: would go. If he was twenty one to the Pittsburgh Steelers,
Speaker 2: That's perfect because I would say the great reflects where
Speaker 2: he goes. Where teams mess up when they draft people
Speaker 2: much higher than the value or the talent that the
Speaker 2: player brings out. And I know on TV we mess
Speaker 2: up and we cloud the minds of fans by saying, oh,
Speaker 2: people get pushed up. No, they shouldn't get pushed up.
Speaker 2: If a player is not a blue chip player, you
Speaker 2: cannot take him in a blue chip position because it
Speaker 2: throws off everything when you get down the line and
Speaker 2: you start talking about expectations and those things. If you
Speaker 2: take an average player in a blue chip spot in
Speaker 2: three years, you're like, man, we mean we took him
Speaker 2: third overall. He's not giving us because he never was
Speaker 2: that player.
Speaker 1: Never was that. Yeah, I took a lot of bullets
Speaker 1: in my starting a round in the second Monk. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've watched all these guys and I'm like, man, NFL team,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go with what I see because I
Speaker 1: trust what I see. And I put Shador once. I
Speaker 1: had him falling in the mock past a couple spots,
Speaker 1: and at that time Raiders were a potential and Jets.
Speaker 1: But I you know, the second Monck is before free agency,
Speaker 1: and so I was like, man, if these teams tighten
Speaker 1: it up with free agent quarterbacks, he's gonna fall because
Speaker 1: the great the tape doesn't say you draft him this high.
Speaker 1: And so I had him slide down. I had the
Speaker 1: Browns jump up and grab him at twenty nine. Woh woh.
Speaker 1: The Internet was not happy with me for doing that,
Speaker 1: but I just had to be real because that happens
Speaker 1: a lot. Sometimes guys get drafted earlier. The next one,
Speaker 1: I put him at twenty four. This last one, I'm
Speaker 1: probably putting them at twenty one with the Steelers, and
Speaker 1: I think it's because you know, you have to find
Speaker 1: you're right. There's a long history of passing, Like can
Speaker 1: you imagine passing on Abdull Carter and someone are going
Speaker 1: to argue the Titans are doing this. You know, you
Speaker 1: could make this argument. You're passing on Abdul Carter, You're
Speaker 1: passing on Travis Hunter, Yeah, Cambell, you know, or Shador
Speaker 1: or any other court Jackson Dart, any other quarterback. And
Speaker 1: I think with the NFL, Brian Billick, I've said this
Speaker 1: story before. He's made the comment before. When I was
Speaker 1: in the room and he was talking, he said, as
Speaker 1: soon as you draft the first round quarterback, the hour
Speaker 1: glasses turned over on your job, and if you don't
Speaker 1: develop that quarterback, you and your general manager get fired.
Speaker 1: Usually the head coach for sure, will get fired. Sometimes
Speaker 1: at GM. And he said, you know, Kyle Bohler got
Speaker 1: in you knowing nothing against Kyle Bowler, but he said,
Speaker 1: we drafted Colin the first. And his whole point was,
Speaker 1: you know, if you're comfortable taking a player with the
Speaker 1: nineteenth pick, you should be comfortable take a quarterback. That is,
Speaker 1: you should be comfortable taking them with the fifth pick,
Speaker 1: because either way, you're gonna get fired if you don't
Speaker 1: develop them. And I thought that was interesting. However, I
Speaker 1: would also say, now, wait a minute, who are the
Speaker 1: guys were passing on in the draft. If we were
Speaker 1: to take a guy number five. So I just think
Speaker 1: that this draft, very very rarely have I had quarterbacks.
Speaker 1: Trevor Lawrence would be the one time, and you know,
Speaker 1: and he's been I think, kind of average so far.
Speaker 1: Very rarely have I had quarterbacks as the very best
Speaker 1: player in the draft to be hot Garrett Tekwon Barkley.
Speaker 1: But it's rare to have quarterbacks who are actually on
Speaker 1: film the best players.
Speaker 2: It is rare. And we talk about the value of
Speaker 2: the position, and that is the other thing when it
Speaker 2: comes to it. Lance we talked about first round quarterbacks
Speaker 2: versus not. We did all the research and what was
Speaker 2: crazy to me, like since twenty fifteen, over the last decade,
Speaker 2: we talked about Pro bowlers. Nineteen Pro Bowl quarterbacks were
Speaker 2: first round picks from twenty fifteen to whatever. Nineteen Pro
Speaker 2: Bowls are taken in the first round in rounds two
Speaker 2: through seven. Four quarterbacks pick two through seven have only
Speaker 2: made four Pro Bowls. Second round pick was Jalen Millroe.
Speaker 2: Seventh round I think was Brock pretty Garnermentshew, No, not
Speaker 2: Jaylen Melville, Jaylen Hurts, yeah, Jalen Hurts, sorry, Yeah. Garna
Speaker 2: Minshew was a Pro Bowl, he counts in that. Brock
Speaker 2: Perty would count that. But that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2: So when we start to have these conversations and we
Speaker 2: always get to it right Like on TV, we talked about, like,
Speaker 2: hey man, who's the second round guy that you can
Speaker 2: get nobody like because the odds suggests that it's not
Speaker 2: going to happen if they're not graded as a first
Speaker 2: round talent. The odd suggested they're not going to be
Speaker 2: a player that really makes a dent in the league.
Speaker 2: And this year reminds me of the twenty the Kenny
Speaker 2: Pickett year where we talked about these guys Kenny Pickett,
Speaker 2: Desmond Rhader, Malik Willison, whoever else was in that class.
Speaker 2: Oh man, somebody's going, oh, somebody's going no crowd. No, yeah,
Speaker 2: Matt Crown was the one. And so I say this
Speaker 2: to you to remind me, hey man, grade the player
Speaker 2: for the player and live with the grade. It is
Speaker 2: un likely that if there's someone that doesn't pop for
Speaker 2: us when we're looking at quarterback, it's unlikely they're gonna
Speaker 2: pop in the league like that.
Speaker 1: So, Bucky, I had done this a ten year study,
Speaker 1: and you're talking a lot about kind of a lot
Speaker 1: of the stuff that I did. So here's the number.
Speaker 2: Buck.
Speaker 1: You either think they're a starter, and if they're a starter,
Speaker 1: you're really risk your job you put them in a
Speaker 1: first That's what it is. Over the last ten our
Speaker 1: last ten drafts, thirty five first round quarterbacks, fourteen third rounders,
Speaker 1: six second rounders, and the second rounders. As you mentioned
Speaker 1: Jalen Hurts, but you got Christian Hackenberg, Kyle Trask in
Speaker 1: the second round. Will Levis like, it's it's a dead zone. Now,
Speaker 1: there was a time in the what was it the
Speaker 1: fourteen draft. I think it was where you had Jimmy Garoppolo,
Speaker 1: you had Derek Carr. That was a little different time.
Speaker 1: But now when you look at it, it's really teams
Speaker 1: are saying, look, if we think a quarterback is a
Speaker 1: first and this is why Jackson Dark, Tyler Shuck uh
Speaker 1: Shador Sanders, this could swing either way for him. But
Speaker 1: what you're not gonna what you rarely see as many
Speaker 1: second round picks. Only six players in the last ten
Speaker 1: drafts have been picked in the second round as a quarterback.
Speaker 1: And the reason simple, if we think you're a quarterback,
Speaker 1: we're pushing you into the first that's we're gonna get
Speaker 1: the extra year on you because it's too expensive a quarterback,
Speaker 1: especially now, we're gonna get the extra year, we'll get
Speaker 1: the franchise year, we got the developmental time. And if
Speaker 1: we don't think you're for if we don't think you're
Speaker 1: a starting quarterback, why are we gonna take you in
Speaker 1: a second when there are much better cornerbacks you're this
Speaker 1: is a picked over Your position group's already picked over.
Speaker 1: I got real cornerbacks. I got real linebackers who are
Speaker 1: gonna start this year and could and his history tells
Speaker 1: us could make Pro Bowls. Why am I gonna put
Speaker 1: You're gonna go to the third round. So it's almost
Speaker 1: like you're either in the first or you're in the third. Historically,
Speaker 1: this year could break the moll because I think Milree
Speaker 1: goes in a second. I think Tyler Shuck probably goes
Speaker 1: in a second.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of conversation. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of conversation on h Like I said, Bruce Feldman talked
Speaker 2: about don't expect to see Tyler shop going to the
Speaker 2: top forty. You had Tom Tayler Server put a reporter
Speaker 2: out saying NFL coaches and scouts have told him they
Speaker 2: believe Jalen Murlroe is a better running quarterback than Lamar
Speaker 2: Jackson was in college, which I was like, hold on,
Speaker 2: like you probably won't check check the facts, oh jack
Speaker 2: Lamar Jackson had four thousand rushing yards in three years.
Speaker 2: He had back to back rushing seasons with fifteen one
Speaker 2: hundred yards. He scored fifty rushing touchdowns. I love Jalen Murro.
Speaker 2: I love his superpowers. Jaalen Murran get close to doing
Speaker 2: what Lamar Jackson did as a collegiate player. So it's
Speaker 2: compair to even make that comparison.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not even doesn't make sense because you're telling
Speaker 1: me a running quarterback, Well, you have to be able
Speaker 1: to throw something. Jalen frankly cannot throw like Lamar Jackson
Speaker 1: did in college. Jalen's decision making his accuracy. It's not
Speaker 1: good passing tape. Honestly, Jalen Milroe's tape is not very
Speaker 1: good this year as a pastor. That's why some of
Speaker 1: the late him. I mean, he's an incredible athlete, don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong, but I think a lot of the
Speaker 1: Lamar Jackson Jalen hurts He's not Jalen Hurts either. Jalen
Speaker 1: was a better thrower of the football coming out. Jalen
Speaker 1: was just a little tardy from a timing standpoint. But
Speaker 1: he can spin it. He's got an arm, he's got
Speaker 1: a really tight spiral. He's got rare leadership stuff to him.
Speaker 1: He's got you know, Jalen Hurts is a guy that
Speaker 1: I really learned from because I just didn't think that
Speaker 1: guy could be a full time starting quarterback and be
Speaker 1: a good one. But when you have, you know, and
Speaker 1: I do think the Eagles have done a nice job
Speaker 1: of putting him in position to succeed, like they're asking
Speaker 1: him to do things he does well, which is the
Speaker 1: key for all quarterbacks really when you get right down
Speaker 1: to it, don't ask a quarterback to do something he
Speaker 1: doesn't do well, but maximize his strengths. And so if
Speaker 1: you draft Jalen Milroe knowing that you know it's gonna
Speaker 1: be somebody has to really have a plan for him.
Speaker 1: And you know, I do wonder Bucky. In this day
Speaker 1: and age, people get a little sensitive. You and I
Speaker 1: know each other, so I you know, we can talk
Speaker 1: about whatever. You know, some quarterback, you know some teams
Speaker 1: are having a conversation. I talked to teams who already
Speaker 1: aren't having a conversation about Hey, if it doesn't work
Speaker 1: at quarterback, we.
Speaker 2: Put him a running back.
Speaker 1: We're gonna make the shift. We'll make the switch. Now. Look,
Speaker 1: listen to a lot of those guys who I don't
Speaker 1: know the last time that was successful where you came
Speaker 1: in starting as a quarterback.
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that it reminds me a lot
Speaker 2: of our colleague Michael Robinson when Mike Robb was coming
Speaker 2: out of Penn State. And this is a long time Mike,
Speaker 2: Mike rob made a man. He made a transition that
Speaker 2: you never would think you go, You go from quarterback
Speaker 2: to being a slobbery knocker at fullback. That is crazy.
Speaker 2: But that speaks to the type of athleticism that he had.
Speaker 2: But like, you can't tell me that Jalen Milroe couldn't
Speaker 2: be an offensive weapon if it didn't work out. He
Speaker 2: couldn't be someone that you line up in the dot
Speaker 2: and do that. He would have to learn how to
Speaker 2: do pass protection whatever. But I mean he's four three nine,
Speaker 2: he's two hundred and twenty five pounds, four three nine.
Speaker 2: You see the body is ripped up like yeah, but
Speaker 2: you give him every opportunity to make it as a quarterback.
Speaker 2: I mean, no different than Taysom Hill, you know what
Speaker 2: I'm saying, Like he's a much better player than taste,
Speaker 2: but similarity, do you try and find ways to put
Speaker 2: those athletes on the field. And sorry to lead the
Speaker 2: listeners on this this dialogue and this dissertation on quarterback play,
Speaker 2: but it's funny how the conversation and how we spend
Speaker 2: so much of our time talking about it on TV
Speaker 2: that it prevents us from talking about some of the
Speaker 2: other guys. I'm glad you brought up Josh Simmons because
Speaker 2: that was a conversation that I wanted to have. But also,
Speaker 2: what's your take on Will Campbell Because there's a lot
Speaker 2: of like he kind of bores people in terms of like,
Speaker 2: oh the arm length and he's not this and not that.
Speaker 2: But I don't know. I saw him at LSU start
Speaker 2: right away, have a lot of success in what we
Speaker 2: all view as the toughest conference in football. I guess
Speaker 2: a lot of big time past rushers. What's your take
Speaker 2: on what would you dassy about?
Speaker 1: Well, so, my dad as a as a former NFL
Speaker 1: on line coach. He always said anyone who says arm
Speaker 1: length isn't important doesn't coach on line, because that's it
Speaker 1: is important because if you don't have it, you have
Speaker 1: to be really you have a small margin for error
Speaker 1: when it comes to pass pro and really beyond pass pro,
Speaker 1: just run blocking anything. Because offensive line play is about
Speaker 1: first in right, you want to be first in usually
Speaker 1: typically that is with hands, and so if you are
Speaker 1: going to be a shorter arm tackle, and to be sure,
Speaker 1: shorter arm tackles are considered anything under thirty four inches.
Speaker 1: Will Campbell's under thirty three inches. That's like Jonah Williams
Speaker 1: when he came out. I like Joonah Williams, but Joonah
Speaker 1: Williams has not been as big a factor as I
Speaker 1: was expecting him to be coming out. They tried to
Speaker 1: playhim a tackle and it's you know, it's been pretty
Speaker 1: average over there. I think Will Campbell has really heavy hands.
Speaker 1: I think that right now. There are some inconsistencies with
Speaker 1: his timing of his hands, so the link does come
Speaker 1: into play from time to time. I just think he
Speaker 1: gets sloppy with the footwork sometimes, and I do think
Speaker 1: that's correct. But when the bullets are flying. All the
Speaker 1: work you did in practice, like it's got to you
Speaker 1: got to turn it into muscle memory. But what he's
Speaker 1: really special at is he has incredible recovery. Even when
Speaker 1: he gets beaten, he recovers and gets people blocked. And
Speaker 1: that that is a skill, that's a talent, that's an
Speaker 1: athletic ability that you have to acknowledge for being a
Speaker 1: guy that stands kind of straight up. And I ask
Speaker 1: his trainer, Duke Mannyweather, about us, So what does he
Speaker 1: say about playing? You know, he plays so high up
Speaker 1: and he said, well, he said, when he comes out
Speaker 1: of his stance, he kind of pops up anyway. So
Speaker 1: why not start there? So he you know, there's no delay.
Speaker 1: He starts there and then he takes off. Because he's
Speaker 1: actually a good run blocker. Even though you know he's
Speaker 1: not a he can bend. He just doesn't look like
Speaker 1: he's a bender. But when you see him play, you
Speaker 1: see the bending, you see the athleticism. I think he's
Speaker 1: a tough ass guy. I think he's somebody will hit
Speaker 1: you in the mouth. I think he is a mentality player.
Speaker 1: And I think he's a patriot. You really want to
Speaker 1: know that, I sink. Mike Rabel's gonna say, Man, that's
Speaker 1: a Patriot. I'm gonna get Patriots in here, and we're
Speaker 1: gonna start with this guy. We don't have a left
Speaker 1: tackle and we need more Patriots. And I think that's
Speaker 1: I think it's that simple. I like Will Campbell. I
Speaker 1: think there's some holes in his game. I think there's
Speaker 1: some holes in Kelvin Banks's game. This is not a
Speaker 1: real clean tackle draft, to be honest with you, not
Speaker 1: at the top.
Speaker 2: Glad you brought up Kevin Banks, because Kevin Banks is
Speaker 2: a guy that I feel like people haven't talked enough about.
Speaker 2: He's kind of kind of flown, not under the radar
Speaker 2: on the process. But man, this conversation about him being
Speaker 2: a top ten pick, that your buddy Ryan Poles could
Speaker 2: take a look at him, maybe at ten for the
Speaker 2: Bears if they just need another body, if you want
Speaker 2: to kind of continue to fortify the offensive line. He's interesting,
Speaker 2: But I want to go to another guy. They talked
Speaker 2: about Tyler.
Speaker 1: Book putt Ryan Poles on me. I'm not like that
Speaker 1: with Ryan Poles anymore.
Speaker 2: He's a GM now, he's a big time I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Okay, Like your former friend.
Speaker 1: The artist report Buck. I just write reports. I'm just
Speaker 1: trying to write reports. That's all I'm trying to do.
Speaker 2: So Tyler Booker like this, I think I think he
Speaker 2: did good.
Speaker 1: I think I think he couldn't be a good bear, though,
Speaker 1: I think he could be a good bear. You're right,
Speaker 1: because they.
Speaker 2: Kevin Banks. Yeah, Now what do you think about? What
Speaker 2: do you think about Tyler Booker? Like people are making
Speaker 2: out like the one thing that I love and appreciate
Speaker 2: about him, he strikes me as the bodyguard. He's the
Speaker 2: bully on the block. He's going to do it. It
Speaker 2: may not always be pretty whatever, but he is going
Speaker 2: to give you the attitude. He's going to move people.
Speaker 2: But there's always in his game, Like people would tell
Speaker 2: me that, hey he's a gap scheme only player. You
Speaker 2: don't want to see his big, lumbering self in his
Speaker 2: own scheme. But what did you take? You know a
Speaker 2: lot of group.
Speaker 1: I went and watched him, So I watched him for
Speaker 1: the Joe More Awards too, which is the top offensive
Speaker 1: line in college football. So I've spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time on a lot of these guys. I think he
Speaker 1: nailed it. Everything you said is accurate. It's exactly how
Speaker 1: I see it. And and he's not, you know, the
Speaker 1: best athlete. He didn't test very well from an athletic standpoint.
Speaker 1: But when I watch him on tape, and I went
Speaker 1: and specifically search for lead pools and outside zone blocks
Speaker 1: because that's going to be on the move. I want
Speaker 1: to see him on the move. He's okay, he can do.
Speaker 1: He can get some lead polls. Now you don't want
Speaker 1: to weigh way out in space, but he can. He
Speaker 1: can pull a little bit. He can come from opposite
Speaker 1: the opposite guard spot and come around the corner for
Speaker 1: you if you need. It's a little better coming from
Speaker 1: playside guard to pull over the outside of the tackle.
Speaker 1: But I think what you said is important. He is
Speaker 1: a grimy, tough guy who you want to add. The
Speaker 1: teams who are most excited about adding him they want
Speaker 1: somebody who is a bully in their building. They want
Speaker 1: a leader, and they want a guy that's going to
Speaker 1: take charge in the offensive line, and they want somebody
Speaker 1: who's gonna get chippy if you mess with the quarterback.
Speaker 1: You know, he's not the player that Quenton Nelson is
Speaker 1: from in terms of the entire package, But He's got
Speaker 1: that same type of mentality that Q Nelson had coming
Speaker 1: out of Notre Dame, which is kind of a rare mentality,
Speaker 1: and books that.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I think there's some limitations in most drafts. I think
Speaker 1: he's a second round pick in this draft. My own
Speaker 1: hometown team to Houston Texans. Man, they need somebody in
Speaker 1: the locker room that can they can they can get
Speaker 1: rally the troops and turn it into you know, turn
Speaker 1: it into a bodyguard squad for the quarterback c J.
Speaker 1: Stroud And and he strikes me as someone that Demico
Speaker 1: Ryans would love. Demico talks about swarm and I can't
Speaker 1: remember what it stands for, but it's a mentality, it's
Speaker 1: a work ethic. And I think Booker, to me, he
Speaker 1: won't fall past twenty five. I couldn't see that mentality
Speaker 1: falling past a team that wants a mentality in their
Speaker 1: locker room. Now, he could go as early as twelve
Speaker 1: to Dallas to replace Zach Martin, but he's you know,
Speaker 1: I think Donovan Jackson from Ohio State is more talented.
Speaker 1: He's a better athlete. But Booker, people who like Booker
Speaker 1: are going to like him for everything you talked about
Speaker 1: at the beginning.
Speaker 2: Of what you said, Yeah, the bully. Yeah, it's funny
Speaker 2: you talk about Donovan Jackson because to me, he is
Speaker 2: really solid, he's really kind of clean. When you look
Speaker 2: at him, there's a lot of things really really well.
Speaker 2: I can't say that he's exceptional in any area, but
Speaker 2: we've seen those guys play ten twelve years Lance in
Speaker 2: the league, like just solid Kevin Zeitler types that just
Speaker 2: play and play and play and just have a lot
Speaker 2: of success. Let's talk to a break very quick, and
Speaker 2: then we'll come back and we'll talk some more offense,
Speaker 2: but really we'll start moving to the defense. All right, Lance,
Speaker 2: So I want to clean up the offense, though. I
Speaker 2: want to ask you a couple of questions. Who is
Speaker 2: the wide receiver that we've slept on throughout this process
Speaker 2: in terms of a guy that we just haven't talked
Speaker 2: enough about. I feel like the conversation has been about
Speaker 2: really three guys. Ted McMillan has been on, Matthew Golden,
Speaker 2: and then the conversation about of late A Mecca Abuka.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I thinka goes into first. I think Luther
Speaker 1: Burden is one hundred, that guy from the very outset.
Speaker 1: I couldn't get people on board with me on the
Speaker 1: LU on the Luther Burden train this guy. So you
Speaker 1: have to go and specifically target his intermediate and deep throws.
Speaker 1: There's a lot in that offense, a lot of quick
Speaker 1: game built in. Let's just get the ball in his hands.
Speaker 1: Throw slants, throw wide receiver, you know, screens, throw hitches.
Speaker 1: And when people talk about his productivity, I hear people say, well,
Speaker 1: his productivity this year. Did you watch Tate? Did you
Speaker 1: see his quarterback? You ain't going to be quarterback. Brady
Speaker 1: Cook had a good year, a pretty good year last
Speaker 1: year on tape, I thought he was like a fourth
Speaker 1: round type, third or fourth round type player. This year
Speaker 1: looks undraftable, and he's big, he's got a good arm.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of traits. He was really bad this year.
Speaker 1: So how are you going to put production on Luther
Speaker 1: Burden when he's asked to catch a lot of short
Speaker 1: stuff and his quarterback just had a really rough year.
Speaker 1: For me, he he's got good play speed. He plays
Speaker 1: faster maybe than the time speed. When the ball is
Speaker 1: in the air. He is a terrific ball winner. He
Speaker 1: is really competitive. It reminded me of Garrett Wilson when
Speaker 1: I watched him. I think Luther Burden in my personal grades,
Speaker 1: is my top wide receiver in this draft. I've got
Speaker 1: him over Milling Golden and Egbuka. I think people are
Speaker 1: sleeping on them way too much. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if there's something else to play here, but Luther Burden
Speaker 1: if he gets to I don't even think he needs
Speaker 1: the right spot. I think Luther's just going to show
Speaker 1: out as a pro. He's going to get out of
Speaker 1: that Missouri offense and where he had some limitations, and
Speaker 1: I think you're going to see a different wide receiver.
Speaker 1: I think people need to remember what they thought of
Speaker 1: him before the year started.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny, man, because when I look at him,
Speaker 2: I just love everything about his game. He's a catching
Speaker 2: around specialist. He's tough, he's physical. I've made the comparison
Speaker 2: to Deebo Samuel just in terms of like what he
Speaker 2: does with the ball in his hands, and he's underrated
Speaker 2: in that regard. Let's talk about some other guys. You
Speaker 2: got the Iowa State guys, uh, the Jays as I
Speaker 2: call them. You got the big guy. I think it's Higgins,
Speaker 2: and then you have Yoel, who's like the shorter, quicker,
Speaker 2: move around guy. You also have some other guys. I
Speaker 2: just feel like like we have an empty the clip
Speaker 2: in terms of like wide receivers that can play, guys
Speaker 2: that we like other guys, because it seems like there's
Speaker 2: so many guys. Jadi Broyles from Utah State is one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you weren't. You weren't a senior bow where you go.
Speaker 2: I wasn't a scene. I was the East West, Okay.
Speaker 1: So Jalen Royals look like. I love Jalen Royals. My
Speaker 1: grade on him is I got a second round grade
Speaker 1: on him. I think he goes in the third is
Speaker 1: my guess, but some people think fourth. I'm just telling you.
Speaker 1: He's got great size, he's physical from the slot. He
Speaker 1: catches everything, great hands. I think he's one of the
Speaker 1: safest wide receivers in this draft. You're not gonna line
Speaker 1: him up outside and stretch the field, but he could
Speaker 1: end up being a high volume target. He deserves more
Speaker 1: conversation than he gets. I think Trey Harris, you know,
Speaker 1: I came into last year. I watched Trey Harris last year.
Speaker 1: I thought he was coming out and I was like
Speaker 1: four to fifth. I watched him this year and I
Speaker 1: thought he was a second. I think he goes into third.
Speaker 1: He didn't run as fast. He's in the low four fives.
Speaker 1: But man on tape, he can win deep. And then
Speaker 1: when you throw on the ball underneath, so they do
Speaker 1: a lot of and you know, all miss kind of
Speaker 1: simplifies sometimes, so you got a lot of vertical it's
Speaker 1: kind of that you're on that linear plane. So you
Speaker 1: got verticals, and then you got stop routes, and then
Speaker 1: you got hitch routes. And they don't ask him to
Speaker 1: do a lot of you know, sink and break and
Speaker 1: run more complicated routes. You want to give him the
Speaker 1: ball on a three yard hitch. He is going to
Speaker 1: be a bull in a china shop after the catch.
Speaker 1: Like he is a really physical runner after the catch.
Speaker 1: He does have that ability to get down the field
Speaker 1: and create explosive plays. I don't care that he doesn't
Speaker 1: run a five. I don't care that he doesn't run
Speaker 1: a four to four because unless you have safety hop
Speaker 1: it's going to be him versus the other guy, and
Speaker 1: he's a bully when the ball is in the air.
Speaker 1: So I think Trey Harris should have a little bit
Speaker 1: more conversation. I think he's going to be a good
Speaker 1: wide receiver number two in the league. And then another
Speaker 1: guy who you know, battled some injury last year and
Speaker 1: came back or was it this year that he got injured?
Speaker 2: It was this year?
Speaker 1: Tory Horton from Colorado State. He's a good football Tory
Speaker 1: is a good football player. And once again we get
Speaker 1: so caught up and talking to the same names over
Speaker 1: and over. But Tory Horton is a good football player
Speaker 1: who I think could end up going in the third
Speaker 1: round and in becoming a quick contributor in the NFL.
Speaker 2: Okay, So back to the Harris conversation. It's funny because
Speaker 2: there was one conversation about Trey Harris before the combine
Speaker 2: and then it was like he went to the ether,
Speaker 2: like he just disappeared because he didn't run a four
Speaker 2: to four time, even though on tape we see him
Speaker 2: run by guys time and time again in that old
Speaker 2: miss offense. And is one of the dangers of being
Speaker 2: so caught up in the combine and the numbers, is
Speaker 2: that guys that we liked on tape, we kind of
Speaker 2: pushed him to the side in lieu of guys who
Speaker 2: were the super athletes at the combine. Look Man Harris
Speaker 2: was a guy that was a big play specialist. Like
Speaker 2: think about a number of deep balls we saw Jackson
Speaker 2: Dark throw to him, and all of them were not
Speaker 2: schemed up a he's wide open. Because Lane Kiffin was
Speaker 2: a master of the pen. He ran by some legitimate guys.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that I learned from Mike
Speaker 2: Holgerman and your caskal, they said, like, when you have
Speaker 2: a big guy that is over six y two who
Speaker 2: runs four or five to four or five five, that's
Speaker 2: moving for a bigger guy, and that you want to
Speaker 2: give them credit for being able to do that. So
Speaker 2: it's just funny how forgotten he has become in this process.
Speaker 2: When we talked about him, like leading up to the combat,
Speaker 2: we talked about him potentially being a look a bottom
Speaker 2: of the first round guy. That's what the conversation was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know his ten yard split is a
Speaker 1: one five six, which is pretty good. It shows you
Speaker 1: how quick he can accelerate vertical leap of thirty eight
Speaker 1: and a half and a broad a ten five. So
Speaker 1: he's got some explosions. Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I
Speaker 1: don't I don't really get it personally on him. I
Speaker 1: do wonder sometime if there's a natural tendency in the
Speaker 1: even in the league. He started off at LA Tech
Speaker 1: and then he came, you know, he came and had
Speaker 1: two years at old mess started off at LA Tech.
Speaker 1: I do wonder sometime if there is a little bit
Speaker 1: of a subconscious bias against guys who started smaller programs
Speaker 1: and then portal to larger ones, and maybe that will
Speaker 1: go away now that the portal is a mainstream.
Speaker 2: I wonder, yeah, like, there may be something to it,
Speaker 2: because even the Matthew Golden conversation, there's that conversation. I
Speaker 2: mean there there is that stigma. A little bit goes
Speaker 2: from h Town to then being at UT, like and
Speaker 2: then at UT you're trying to figure out what if
Speaker 2: he's so good, why wasn't he featured? And then people say, well,
Speaker 2: because you paid as the bond the money, so you
Speaker 2: had to feature him. Maybe, but coaches are coaches. They
Speaker 2: see everything every day. They didn't feature him like a
Speaker 2: number one all the time, but it showed up on occasion. Uh,
Speaker 2: anybody else on office? Oh running back, I gotta go
Speaker 2: to this running back thing because hey, man, there's some
Speaker 2: love on the street for Dylan Sampson from Tennessee.
Speaker 1: Good. I was hoping you were gonna say, Dylan Sampson,
Speaker 1: you can't watch to Bucky had twenty two rushing touchdowns
Speaker 1: in the SEC. Twenty two rushing touchdowns, and he gets
Speaker 1: tough yards. He gets fifteen yard running touchdowns. He has
Speaker 1: really really impressive instincts in short yardage, like he's only
Speaker 1: two hundred pounds in that neighborhood, but when he gets
Speaker 1: the ball in tight quarters, he's got that Emmett Smith quality.
Speaker 1: You know how emmittt could find just the smallest crease
Speaker 1: and work his way through. I think he has some
Speaker 1: of that. I think when it's all said and done,
Speaker 1: he is one of the Dylan Samson for me is
Speaker 1: my let's see, I got an Ashton genty, then O'maron Hampton,
Speaker 1: and then Dylan ham and then I got Dylan Sampson
Speaker 1: three ahead of quin Shawn Judkins, ahead of Caleb Johns.
Speaker 1: And who I think is I didn't love him on
Speaker 1: tape as much as maybe some other people did. And no,
Speaker 1: I think Dylan Samson is a good running back if
Speaker 1: he were two hundred and ten pounds no one blinks,
Speaker 1: and he goes in a second and no one says
Speaker 1: a word. He's about two hundred pounds, and now all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you know, we got question marks about him.
Speaker 1: I don't have any questions.
Speaker 2: It's funny because of my last top five, I put
Speaker 2: cam Scatterboo over top of him, and some of it, yeah,
Speaker 2: but some of it is like Lancelike sometimes you just
Speaker 2: want to give guys visibility, and so I had given
Speaker 2: Dylan Sampson some visibility. But look, I really loved camp
Speaker 2: schtabul And at the same time, I really like what
Speaker 2: Dylan Sampson brings to the table. When I watched him
Speaker 2: at Tennessee, man, speed, quickness, balance, burst, all that stuff
Speaker 2: he puts it in. And the fact that you talked about, man,
Speaker 2: you just don't score twenty plus touchdowns in the sec
Speaker 2: like you put the ball in the paint. People can
Speaker 2: talk about that offense and how they spread it out
Speaker 2: or whatever, but I saw him carve up some big
Speaker 2: time defenses like scooting and scoring around the corner.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I got an argument with a personnel director about him,
Speaker 1: and they were trying to send me videos of him
Speaker 1: with big lanes to run through I'm like, yeah, we
Speaker 1: can all do that. I can show you Caleb Johnson
Speaker 1: if you want, Like, we can all go to a
Speaker 1: play and screenshot. This isn't hard. But I watched that
Speaker 1: joker on every carry and he is really like he's
Speaker 1: a talented, instinctive runner. I think, the same thing you
Speaker 1: know in Cam Scattabull. It's it's really interesting talking to
Speaker 1: teams who are there's internal fights in buildings right now
Speaker 1: about him because you have some you have one section
Speaker 1: which will fight for him, and then you'll have other
Speaker 1: scouts or coaches or whatever. Well, typically coaches are on
Speaker 1: his side, to be honest with That's kind of what
Speaker 1: I'm finding, and it's because they don't like there is
Speaker 1: no preconceived notion he's a guy that looks like, you know,
Speaker 1: a mini version of Mike Alstad or whatever. All I
Speaker 1: know is when you watch him play, he's really hard
Speaker 1: to tackle and he can catch the ball out of
Speaker 1: the backfield. He scores a lot of touchdowns. He's rarely
Speaker 1: stopped on first impact, rarely. He creates for himself with
Speaker 1: tremendous power and the bursts average. The speed is gonna
Speaker 1: be below average in terms of top end speed, but
Speaker 1: when you're trying to the way I see him Bucket
Speaker 1: is I want to have a number one back, a
Speaker 1: good number one, And then scatter Boy is my closer.
Speaker 1: We're gonna come. We're going to beat the hell out
Speaker 1: of you with these two guys, And like, can you
Speaker 1: imagine if Jim, you know, Hardball, got his hands on him.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's gonna want to We're just gonna play
Speaker 1: bully ball. He's gonna get a couple and all he's
Speaker 1: gonna want to do is get downhill and break people off.
Speaker 1: So you know, for me, Scatterball is that perfect second
Speaker 1: back for a team that wants to play power running
Speaker 1: down the downhill.
Speaker 2: This look quickly to defense. We talked about the defensive
Speaker 2: tacles and those guys. Anybody else that we need to
Speaker 2: touch on who haven't we haven't kind of put enough
Speaker 2: light on. I've talked about before coming from Michigan State
Speaker 2: and those guys. But someone who we have about is TJ. Sanders.
Speaker 2: Did you like him from South Carolina?
Speaker 1: I did? I did, And you know, he's it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I thought he's a little small on tape and then
Speaker 1: I saw him at the combine. He's not the biggest guy,
Speaker 1: but he's built really well. You know, sometimes you just
Speaker 1: got to get eyeballs on somebody. It's hard to tell
Speaker 1: on tape. You get eyeballs and you see guys who
Speaker 1: have the body type and who don't. And he's got
Speaker 1: the body type. Like I said, he's not the biggest guy,
Speaker 1: but he's got a real NFL body type. And I
Speaker 1: think I think he needs to be talked about. I
Speaker 1: think Shamar Turner out of Texas A and M some
Speaker 1: questions about the medicals on him. He had a leg injury,
Speaker 1: so he hasn't been available for this process. His agent
Speaker 1: says he's been medically cleared. You know, you got to
Speaker 1: check in with teams to find out if they have
Speaker 1: him on the border or not. Shamart Turner justin mattaweek eight.
Speaker 1: That's the kind of player. Shamart Turner is the undersized
Speaker 1: interior lineman who is really explosive and really really fierce.
Speaker 1: He doesn't give you any quarter at all. Every snap
Speaker 1: is you're in a fistfight. And his problem is buck
Speaker 1: he has like five to fifteen yard penalties. He can't
Speaker 1: stop himself.
Speaker 2: He's like a hockey gooon.
Speaker 1: If you mess with one of his teammates. He's running
Speaker 1: over and cleaning you up. And it's not even like
Speaker 1: can't you do it inside a play where they can't
Speaker 1: catch you, like you can't do it after the tackle
Speaker 1: and they're resetting the football like it's it's late late.
Speaker 1: But he has a joy for football. Talking to people
Speaker 1: at A and M. They love him. I mean, they
Speaker 1: absolutely love him. And I thought the fifteen yard pill leasion,
Speaker 1: I wanted to find out, is this a guy that
Speaker 1: has anger issues? Is he out of control? Is he
Speaker 1: an issue in practice in the locker room? Not at all.
Speaker 1: They love Shamar Turner and they said he just goes
Speaker 1: to war for his teammates. He just has to reel
Speaker 1: it in a little bit. But Shamar Turner is somebody
Speaker 1: who you need to talk about. Shamar Turner. And as
Speaker 1: I mentioned, the other defensive tackle was as you said, TJ. Sanders,
Speaker 1: those are two guys who can make plays on the here.
Speaker 1: They're not just drain cloggers like they're guys who make plays.
Speaker 1: And Jamary Caldwell from Oregon is another one of those guys,
Speaker 1: kind of a sloppy body type and you think, eh,
Speaker 1: but then when you will put the tape on him
Speaker 1: and Vernon Broughton have these weird body types. Vernnon Broughton
Speaker 1: from Texas. I think both of them get drafted in
Speaker 1: the fourth. These jokers just make a ton of plays.
Speaker 1: They're all over the place. But you know, I know
Speaker 1: enough to know that NFL teams like guys that look
Speaker 1: a certain way and have certain traits. But then once
Speaker 1: you get past the third round, it's like, let's go
Speaker 1: get the best for one we don't care who are
Speaker 1: the best guys. Who are the best, most talented football
Speaker 1: players we can get? And I think that's when Jamari
Speaker 1: Caldwell and Vernon Broughton, two defensive tackles in this draft,
Speaker 1: are gonna pop up. I like both of those guys.
Speaker 1: They make a lot of plays.
Speaker 2: Let's go linebacker situation. Everyone is all we talked to
Speaker 2: nausea about Jalen Walker, Joha Campbell. There's love for especially
Speaker 2: the guy kid from UCLA Sweat Julia's love for him.
Speaker 2: But Dennis Stetsman from Oklahoma and someone that kind of
Speaker 2: called my I love the playmaking. He ran faster than
Speaker 2: people anticipated at the combine. Uh when you look at
Speaker 2: him and wrote his profile, anything to you about him.
Speaker 2: What about him and Barrett Carter, Because I feel like
Speaker 2: Barret Carter is just well, he got rocks in his
Speaker 2: in his in his pants, and they have just dropped
Speaker 2: him to the bottom of the ocean when it comes
Speaker 2: to the draft. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Barret Carter. I had a second round grade on
Speaker 1: him last year when I wrote him up. Now lots changed.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think he's going to go into fourth probably.
Speaker 1: I think the one thing is I thought he was
Speaker 1: a four to four low four five four four forty
Speaker 1: guy and he came out at his pro day. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna pull it up for you right now. And this
Speaker 1: is what I think it really hurt him is he
Speaker 1: was supposed to be one of the things that stood
Speaker 1: out with him was going to be his uh, his speed,
Speaker 1: and then he ran a hold on a second up
Speaker 1: right here. He ran a four to sixty three. That's
Speaker 1: not slow, It's fine. His ten yard split was one
Speaker 1: five to nine. But when you think a guy's going
Speaker 1: to run a four to five to two, and then
Speaker 1: he has a thirty three inch vertical jump, which is
Speaker 1: not the most explosive vertical jump. He weighed in at
Speaker 1: two thirty two. I think that's one of the things
Speaker 1: that hurts a little bit. I know on tape, I
Speaker 1: like him on tape. I mean, you know, the testing
Speaker 1: and that's all part of it. But on tape, I
Speaker 1: think he's a pretty good player. I like Barrett Carter.
Speaker 1: I think he's worthy of going on day two. From
Speaker 1: the tape, I think because of his testing, he probably
Speaker 1: goes on day three. Schwessinger has some of the best
Speaker 1: instincts I've seen on tape the last several years. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like he's moving with the play. It's like he
Speaker 1: knows where the play is. And he's not the biggest,
Speaker 1: strongest guy, but because he's ahead of the blocking scheme,
Speaker 1: he doesn't get touched up the way some linebackers do.
Speaker 1: He's able to slip blocks because he's running the play
Speaker 1: for you and he's running the track for the running.
Speaker 1: So he went from he's a one one year starter
Speaker 1: with like a billion tackles and I guess the word
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you heard this was I heard from
Speaker 1: somebody who knew people inside the UCLA program that said
Speaker 1: he was just wrecking show Kelly's offense when he was
Speaker 1: on Scout team defense, and for some reason, all the
Speaker 1: players thought he should be, you know, he should be
Speaker 1: a starter, and he didn't start until his last year,
Speaker 1: and then he was a killer this year. Now he's
Speaker 1: been a special team's ace the entire time of he
Speaker 1: was are he's a former walk on, but he's got
Speaker 1: good speed. He's an explosive. I think he's got like
Speaker 1: a forty inch vertical. He's got explosiveness to him. The
Speaker 1: one guy it's not a great it's it's considered a
Speaker 1: down year for linebackers. The one guy that Danny Stutsman
Speaker 1: is a good player. He ran well. Danny Stutsman's going
Speaker 1: to be a starting linebacker in the league. I think
Speaker 1: he goes in the third round. Another guy that deserves
Speaker 1: more attention is Demetrius Knight from South Carolina. Kind of
Speaker 1: a throwback in terms of body type, about two hundred
Speaker 1: and forty eight pounds. He's big, he's physical, he can
Speaker 1: run a little bit. He runs pretty well for being
Speaker 1: his size. They say he is a phenomenal leader in
Speaker 1: the locker room and on the field. A phenomenal leader,
Speaker 1: very upbeat, a guy who brings good, positive, high energy
Speaker 1: to the field and to the locker room. But he
Speaker 1: also is gonna split your wig for you if you
Speaker 1: try to get down hell on him. So you know
Speaker 1: he's got that physicality between the tackles, and he's got
Speaker 1: the demeanor that you want setting the tone on defense.
Speaker 1: But once you get past Stutsman, Knight, Schwesssinger, Campbell Walker,
Speaker 1: you start running into you start running into some ifs
Speaker 1: and butts. I think from there and you better have
Speaker 1: good special teams play. Even though I like Barry Carter too,
Speaker 1: I give him a sixty two, which is a third,
Speaker 1: But I just I don't think. I just I don't
Speaker 1: think he goes in there. But Jeffrey Bossa from Oregon,
Speaker 1: I think he'll be a solid player. Smell Munden has
Speaker 1: had some foot injury issues. I think he'll be a
Speaker 1: solid player. Uh, he gets it gets a little trickier
Speaker 1: after that. So if you want linebackers, you probably need
Speaker 1: to get him inside the first.
Speaker 2: Ninety picks, last position group to cover. Just be the DB's.
Speaker 2: We'll lump them all together. We've talked about all the
Speaker 2: usual suspects at corner. Everyone has. We talked at nausea
Speaker 2: about jadefe Aaron, We talked about Will Johnson. Uh, we
Speaker 2: got the injured guys Shavonne Ravel and those guys Benjamin Morrison,
Speaker 2: Maxwell Harrison has gotten love, caught fire of late. Let's
Speaker 2: move beyond that. Who are the other guys? The other
Speaker 2: guys that we need to talk about? That may not
Speaker 2: be first round guys, but when we get into that
Speaker 2: run and the second and third one, we're gonna be
Speaker 2: on the live show, Like, who are her names that
Speaker 2: we need to talk about? We need to at least
Speaker 2: flush out.
Speaker 1: Jacob Parish, Kansas state cornerback. Tremendous, short, area of quickness,
Speaker 1: very very sticky. There's sometimes he reminds me of Gyr
Speaker 1: Alexander when he was coming out. He is a really
Speaker 1: sticky corner with sticky feet and is a natural fleet,
Speaker 1: free flowing athlete. He's got that basketball athleticism. I like
Speaker 1: Jacob Parrish a lot, and I think he ran like
Speaker 1: really really well if I remember correctly too, so I
Speaker 1: keep getting third on him. But I'm telling you, I
Speaker 1: think he's I think he's definitely gonna outplay outplay that.
Speaker 1: From a trade standpoint, he weighed in at the combine.
Speaker 1: I'll give you his combine numbers here in a second.
Speaker 1: But Jacob Parris is the guy that I'm gonna get
Speaker 1: hyped on when we are on the broadcast. He ran
Speaker 1: a four three five, he's got thirty seven and a
Speaker 1: half ins vertical, a ten to nine broad He is
Speaker 1: five foot ten, one ninety one. I mean, you know
Speaker 1: the problem we have right now, Bucky, that you've probably
Speaker 1: seen too. Is it used to be oh good, we'll
Speaker 1: just throw him in a slot. Well, a lot of
Speaker 1: teams now want bigger, They want those hybrids now in
Speaker 1: the slot. So if this guy were five eleven and
Speaker 1: a half six foot, we may be talking about him
Speaker 1: in the first round. But it's strange because it's not
Speaker 1: like he's one hundred and seventy five pounds. He's one
Speaker 1: ninety one ninety one running in the four threes, and
Speaker 1: he's five to ten. That's kind of average size. But
Speaker 1: there are some teams that say, we just don't unless
Speaker 1: you're an absolute doll, we're not going to play you
Speaker 1: at slot because it's too valuable for us to have,
Speaker 1: you know, a run defender in the slot. So I
Speaker 1: don't know where he goes. I think he's a really
Speaker 1: really good cornerback. He's somebody that I think is is
Speaker 1: going to be a good NFL player. I also think
Speaker 1: Jonah Sanker the safety out of Virginia. He is a
Speaker 1: heat seeking missile downhill. He's he's got real NFL size,
Speaker 1: six foot by two hundred and sixteen pounds, runs pretty well,
Speaker 1: can run and hit you. He's got some instincts underneath.
Speaker 1: But he's one of those guys that as soon as
Speaker 1: the play gets started. You know how there's some guys
Speaker 1: that are defensive players, and there's others who are running
Speaker 1: into the fire. You know, they say, like firefighters, you
Speaker 1: gotta have a different mentality when that cage door locks
Speaker 1: in the UFC, right, we've got to have a different mentality.
Speaker 1: Jonah Sanker is one of those guys that where's the
Speaker 1: fire and he's flying in there trying to trying to
Speaker 1: go hit and be hit. So I like that. I
Speaker 1: like that, and it's funny because I'm finding the teams
Speaker 1: like him too. He doesn't get a lot of talk
Speaker 1: from the general public, but I think he's one of
Speaker 1: those guys that every team secretly hopes, Yeah, that's our
Speaker 1: guy in the third round. That's our guy in the
Speaker 1: third round. Well we'll see which one of y'all win
Speaker 1: the race.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be so interesting to see what that looks like,
Speaker 2: how that looks in terms of the guys who like
Speaker 2: those type players, who want to put those players in
Speaker 2: the back end. It's great that you brought up the
Speaker 2: different the shift that we're seeing in the slot players
Speaker 2: because so many colleges are playing with the quote unquote
Speaker 2: star position, that hybrid nickel. You have a lot of
Speaker 2: different options that if you want as a slot defender,
Speaker 2: do you want a safety type, do you want a
Speaker 2: corner type, and those things the other things that's shifting.
Speaker 2: Kyli Gordon getting paid from the Chicago Bears moving that
Speaker 2: up into the twenty million dollar category. The nickel position lance,
Speaker 2: Now we're really looking for guys that have a specific
Speaker 2: skill set for the slot. The nickel used to be
Speaker 2: the throwaway. Ay, anybody that's little, we're gonna make them
Speaker 2: a nickel. Anybody that's five eight, five nine, we're just
Speaker 2: gonna put them and make them a nickel corner. We'll
Speaker 2: put them on board and kind of that's where they go.
Speaker 2: Now it's a legitimate position, and it's interesting because you
Speaker 2: have to grade twelve positions on defense for starters, and
Speaker 2: a nickel position is one of those.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's why john Dy Barron. You know, some people
Speaker 1: are gonna look at Johnny barn from Texas. They're gonna say, well,
Speaker 1: where do we put him? Like we can't define his value.
Speaker 1: Another I talk to another defensive coach who told.
Speaker 2: Me, oh, I love it.
Speaker 1: He's he's Brian branch all over again. I got a
Speaker 1: nickel who can play out in the slot if I want.
Speaker 1: And so when you look at a guy like Johnny Barron,
Speaker 1: he's got the versatility to play over a pass catching
Speaker 1: tight end in the slot. He can play true slot,
Speaker 1: he can play the overhang nickel that star where he
Speaker 1: can get after it as a run defender, and he
Speaker 1: can step outside and play outside. So I think it's
Speaker 1: his versatility that may have him as the first. Almost
Speaker 1: Travis Hunter, I almost don't count him. He's like when
Speaker 1: Tiger Woods used to talk about, well, who's gonna finish second, Well, Travis.
Speaker 2: Is going to be the best.
Speaker 1: He's my first receiver in the draft. He's my first
Speaker 1: cornerback in the draft. So who's after him? I think
Speaker 1: Bearing goes first because ahead of the other corners, because
Speaker 1: he tested well. He had a great year this year,
Speaker 1: a lot of ball production, but versatility you just referenced it. Man,
Speaker 1: the ability to play in and that nickel role and outside,
Speaker 1: to play inside and outside comfortably and successfully, that's kind
Speaker 1: of rare. So I think that it has made grading
Speaker 1: these guys a lot more difficult. Brian Branch really showed
Speaker 1: you just go get a good football player, and a
Speaker 1: defensive coordinator is going to figure out how to play.
Speaker 1: He'll figure out how to play the safety, he'll figure
Speaker 1: out how to play the corner. But you know, it
Speaker 1: is it is tricky. They played Malachi Starks there this year.
Speaker 1: Georgia did, but he got beat on a lot of routes.
Speaker 1: Not bad, he just you know, he just wasn't like
Speaker 1: he's playing n He's playing cover nickel basically. So when
Speaker 1: I'm watching him in coverage stuff, he's going up against
Speaker 1: some pretty good sec wide receivers. They want to dial
Speaker 1: the tape back to twenty twenty three, and he's playing
Speaker 1: more of a split safety role. He's a lot better.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's coming downhill making plays, and so it
Speaker 1: really it really makes it more challenging to look at
Speaker 1: those players. But at the same time, for some NFL coaches,
Speaker 1: they see, oh man, we love it. We love it
Speaker 1: because now we can be varied in our defensive approaches
Speaker 1: and our personnel groups, and you can't really out scheme us.
Speaker 1: I mean, isn't that really what it gets down to,
Speaker 1: Bucky right now is we don't want you to be
Speaker 1: able to mismatch us. We want to mismatch you up front,
Speaker 1: but which happens a lot with D line and O line.
Speaker 1: We don't want you to mismatch us on the perimeter
Speaker 1: with skill.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a compelling thing. Last man, we made it.
Speaker 2: Now we stressed it out an hour. We stressing out
Speaker 2: an hour talking about all this stuff and look bad.
Speaker 2: It's on me. Let me finish it because that was
Speaker 2: a winning combination brought to you by Lows. We help
Speaker 2: you save. But no, like we stressed out, and there's
Speaker 2: so many things to talk about. I think we have
Speaker 2: another podcast before we go to the draft. I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe Wednesday or something. We'll come back and kind of
Speaker 2: talk about that. I know, we got the post stuff
Speaker 2: I got you on one of the days, and then
Speaker 2: we'll pull some other guys in.
Speaker 1: But we got the mock. We got Buckie. We got
Speaker 1: Buckie Brooks's mock four point zero.
Speaker 2: I guess something. I'm sitting here working on that right
Speaker 2: now as we go through it, because I'm a little
Speaker 2: late to the party. But we will get it. We're
Speaker 2: gonna get it done. But look, that's today's a podcast.
Speaker 2: Moves to stakes me, Lancey. We'll be back later in
Speaker 2: the week to discuss all things the draft as we
Speaker 2: get ready for a huge event, maybe the biggest event
Speaker 2: on the scouting Community's counting until next time, I'm Bucky.
Speaker 2: That's lance We'll talk to you