WEBVTT - Mike Rogers Talks Cybersecurity, Politics, Trump

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<v Speaker 1>We are here at the UBS Australasia Conference is Sydney

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<v Speaker 1>on day one and really excited about this conversation. Coming up.

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<v Speaker 1>Joining me now is Michael Rogers, who's a senior advisor

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<v Speaker 1>at Bondi Partners. He's also the former commander of the

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<v Speaker 1>US Harber Command and the National Security Agency Director. And

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<v Speaker 1>as we were just chatting about in the break, nothing

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<v Speaker 1>going on, nothing pertinent to your wealth of experience out

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<v Speaker 1>all the image we jest, but if we get your

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<v Speaker 1>reaction to the election results, and what do you think,

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<v Speaker 1>having worked under both Presidents Obama and President Trump, what

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<v Speaker 1>do you think Trump two point zero is going to

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<v Speaker 1>look like in terms of his approach to security and cybersecurity.

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<v Speaker 2>So clearly President Trump won by a clear majority, not

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<v Speaker 2>a landslibe, but still a clear majority fifty one percent

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<v Speaker 2>or so of the popular vote. I think what the

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<v Speaker 2>election shows, particularly in his mind, is he now has

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<v Speaker 2>a mandate for change. That his election as a result

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<v Speaker 2>of broad dissatisfaction, that universal, but broad dissatisfaction with the

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<v Speaker 2>policy of the Biden administration. And I suspect President Trump's

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<v Speaker 2>view is I now a man need to change and

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<v Speaker 2>I will do that. He'll probably focus, as he's indicated

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<v Speaker 2>so far economic lines. He clearly has a different vision

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<v Speaker 2>trade tariff policy, his view as prices have gotten out

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<v Speaker 2>of control in the US, he wants to change that.

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<v Speaker 2>He clearly articulated concerns about, Hey, we've got to get

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<v Speaker 2>tougher on the border, We've got to control the flow

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<v Speaker 2>of illegal immigration. I suspect that's going to be a priority.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he has also said, Hey, the world more

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<v Speaker 2>broadly outside the United States, it's in a worse situation

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<v Speaker 2>than it was when I left, and I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>try what I can do to address those issues, whether

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<v Speaker 2>it's Ukraine, China, Israel, and the Middle East. So no

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<v Speaker 2>small amount of challenges at all.

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<v Speaker 1>And he's he's been quite hawkish in terms of indicating

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<v Speaker 1>that would he take a heart line on Iran and

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<v Speaker 1>China for example, And the security risks are so complex.

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<v Speaker 1>In his last term, there were worries about President Trump

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<v Speaker 1>at that point wanting to put in place his supporters

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<v Speaker 1>at the top of the CIA, for example, and other

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<v Speaker 1>intelligence agencies. Do you want worry about the politicization over

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<v Speaker 1>components perhaps for these agents.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I was one of those individuals. I'm in the

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<v Speaker 2>Mueller report because twice he asked me to do something

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<v Speaker 2>and I told him I wasn't going to do that

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<v Speaker 2>because I didn't think it was appropriate. I told him why,

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<v Speaker 2>and to his credit, he said, Okay, Mike, I understand.

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<v Speaker 2>So my view is if everyone does their job, we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to be fine. We have a series of protections,

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<v Speaker 2>checks and balances in the US system, and trying to

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<v Speaker 2>make fundamental change is not impossible, but it's really difficult.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>Clearly, I think when President Biden or President Trump che's

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<v Speaker 2>we starts this term on the twentieth of January twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five. Number one, H'll have already been the president

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<v Speaker 2>for four years, so he's got a steep learning curve

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<v Speaker 2>behind him. He'd be very focused on I've got experience here.

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<v Speaker 2>I know exactly what I want to do. Secondly, he

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<v Speaker 2>truly believes this in his mind, this idea that parts

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<v Speaker 2>of the government are resisting him, that don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>follow his direction. I always tried to tell him, sir,

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<v Speaker 2>they're all you know, we're all professionals. We take an

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<v Speaker 2>oath to the Constitution, and we serve professionally. Whoever is

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<v Speaker 2>a duly elected leader of the United States. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think he'll be inclined to make sure that his supporters

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<v Speaker 2>are spread across a much greater spectrum of leadership within

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<v Speaker 2>the government, not just at the cabinet level, but below

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<v Speaker 2>that as well. That will be a difference, I think

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<v Speaker 2>from the first time, where he just didn't have the

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<v Speaker 2>time really to do that as much. I think he'll

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<v Speaker 2>start out that'll be important to him this time around.

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<v Speaker 1>What was it like working for him, Because you've spoken

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<v Speaker 1>about in the past this idea of access and that

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<v Speaker 1>being a bit of a risk to President Trump in

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<v Speaker 1>the sense that you know, he wasn't a man for

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<v Speaker 1>consensus or necessarily sort of research. But he liked to

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<v Speaker 1>have these conversations I know, and it often dependent on

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<v Speaker 1>the last person that had access to him.

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<v Speaker 2>So to his credit, he would often say to you, look,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a business individual, I'm not a politician, so I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not interested in the twenty five years of history on

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<v Speaker 2>this issue. What I want to understand is what's the problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Why are we here today, and what do you want

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<v Speaker 2>from me? What is the recommendation you're making now. Part

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<v Speaker 2>of the challenge with him began He tended to be

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<v Speaker 2>a person who tended a great store by the last

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<v Speaker 2>person he spoke to. So it's interesting to watch the

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<v Speaker 2>people around him try to make sure they were the

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<v Speaker 2>last person that he spoke to. Others have comment on this,

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<v Speaker 2>It's not unique to Mike Rodgers and my impression having

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<v Speaker 2>worked with him for two and a half years. On

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<v Speaker 2>the other hand, I do believe that, you know, there'll

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<v Speaker 2>be a system in place around him that he'll be

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<v Speaker 2>able to hear a broad range of views now which

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<v Speaker 2>he decides he wants to pay the most attention to

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<v Speaker 2>look as in any president, that's going to be up

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<v Speaker 2>to him. So you know, the other thing I think

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<v Speaker 2>we need to remember is number one, he thought being

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<v Speaker 2>unpredictable was a great strength, was an advantage. He actually

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<v Speaker 2>liked being perceived as unpredictable, so we got to remember that.

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<v Speaker 2>And secondly, he's an individual who liked generating a response.

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<v Speaker 2>Many politicians in my experience, I'm not a political individual,

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<v Speaker 2>but having worked with many of the leaders in my government,

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<v Speaker 2>their view is, hey, look, let's not do things that

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<v Speaker 2>say things that are going to spark turbulence. They're going

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<v Speaker 2>to generate a lot of banks. He's very different in

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<v Speaker 2>that regard. His view is, hey, I like generating a response.

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<v Speaker 2>He almost enjoyed it.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought my.

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<v Speaker 2>Perception was, And so I tell people, look, you're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>have to get used to the idea that what he

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<v Speaker 2>says and what he ultimately chooses to do may not

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<v Speaker 2>be the same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Which would be comforting to some people. Right. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>see the risks to national security as being the same,

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps exacerbated than they were four years ago. You've spoken,

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<v Speaker 1>of course about misinformation and what's happening online. What is

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest sort of risks for you?

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<v Speaker 2>The security environment clearly has gotten worse or tougher on

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<v Speaker 2>a global basis. I mean, we're now dealing with conflict

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<v Speaker 2>in the Middle East in multiple dimensions, both activity directed

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<v Speaker 2>against economic things like shipping in the Red Sea from

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<v Speaker 2>Iran in Israel to directly exchanging attacks against each other,

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<v Speaker 2>as well as the ongoing conflicts in Gaza and Lebanon,

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<v Speaker 2>none of which to me appear as if going to

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<v Speaker 2>end any time in the immediate like the next few

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<v Speaker 2>weeks or months. So the world's got a lot more contentious,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more complicated. Technology and information playing in ever

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<v Speaker 2>greater role, and you're watching how more and more nations

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<v Speaker 2>China Russia around are using the power of disinformation, of misinformation,

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<v Speaker 2>deep fakes, the role of technology to make us believe

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<v Speaker 2>that what we are seeing, what we are reading is

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<v Speaker 2>real or accurate, when in fact it's not. It is

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<v Speaker 2>created out of you know, it's not real. It's some

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<v Speaker 2>person's attempt to technically try to convince us it's real

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<v Speaker 2>that The information dynamic, I think is one of our

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<v Speaker 2>biggest challenges, particularly in free democratic societies, where the ability

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<v Speaker 2>to express our opinion is so foundational, and the idea

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<v Speaker 2>that well, the government doesn't censor, we allow people to read, view,

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<v Speaker 2>consider and they will make their choice. That becomes increasingly

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<v Speaker 2>difficult when we've got nation states and individuals, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to use those technologies and those freedoms against us.

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<v Speaker 1>As it worked is deregulation, which is what we're looking

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<v Speaker 1>at with a second Trump administration going to potentially make

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<v Speaker 1>that worse. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it varies by the specific situation we're dealing with.

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<v Speaker 2>And I also, before we start making blanking assumptions about

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<v Speaker 2>he's going to do this, he's going to do that,

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<v Speaker 2>let's wait and see. I'm the first of that. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know what the answer is, but I just caution

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<v Speaker 2>us against making a lot of blanket assumptions this early.

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<v Speaker 1>You're here in Sydney, and I do wonder to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of end this conversation, what do you see the risks

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<v Speaker 1>the challenges are for middle nations like Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first of all, we all, regardless of size, we

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<v Speaker 2>all live in this hyper connected world. Our economies are

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<v Speaker 2>all intertwined. Our relationships, our friendships. You look at aucust,

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<v Speaker 2>you look at the great history. Are two nations the

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<v Speaker 2>United States and Australia have together.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So the thing I always would say to my Australian

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<v Speaker 2>teammates is, look, you're a great nation with a great history.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things that makes you great, you're a

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<v Speaker 2>democratic society that is willing to do hard things. I

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<v Speaker 2>just I have great respect for countries like that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the selfish image of Americas.

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<v Speaker 1>We're like that.

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<v Speaker 2>We're willing to do hard things. We're willing to do

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<v Speaker 2>the things that we think are right.