WEBVTT - Lol Tolhurst 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:23.516 Pushkin. Lowll Tolhurst is the drummer and co founder of 0:00:23.596 --> 0:00:26.716 The Cure. He first met lead singer Robert Smith when 0:00:26.716 --> 0:00:29.396 they were just five years old. Together with their other 0:00:29.436 --> 0:00:32.836 Catholic school friend, Michael Dempsey, they went on to make dark, 0:00:32.876 --> 0:00:36.356 brooding music that reflected the isolation they felt as the 0:00:36.396 --> 0:00:40.036 only punks living in their small English town. As the 0:00:40.036 --> 0:00:42.876 Cures sound developed in the eighties, they released a string 0:00:42.996 --> 0:00:45.716 of three albums that Loll now defines as the band's 0:00:45.796 --> 0:00:49.436 quote unquote goth period. Today, we'll hear Loll talk in 0:00:49.516 --> 0:00:53.436 detail about the making of those records. He'll also discuss 0:00:53.516 --> 0:00:57.316 the book he just released last month called goth a History, 0:00:57.916 --> 0:01:01.036 which explores the architects of the post punk genre bands 0:01:01.036 --> 0:01:05.116 like Susie, The Banshees, Joy Division, and Bauhaus. In addition 0:01:05.156 --> 0:01:07.756 to the book, Lol is also releasing a new album 0:01:07.796 --> 0:01:10.636 with his old friend Budget, the drummer from the Banchees. 0:01:11.316 --> 0:01:13.956 The album's called Los Angeles and it features an all 0:01:13.996 --> 0:01:16.796 star list of guests including You Two's The Edge and 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:21.516 LCD Sound Systems James Murphy. On today's episode, Lea Rose 0:01:21.556 --> 0:01:24.036 talks to Little Tollhurst about growing up an outcast in 0:01:24.116 --> 0:01:26.796 post World War two England and how he and Robert 0:01:26.876 --> 0:01:30.756 Smith first bonded over a Hendrix record. Lowe also gives 0:01:30.796 --> 0:01:33.956 a window into the creation of the Cures three goth albums. 0:01:34.276 --> 0:01:41.876 That's seventeen seconds, Faith and Pornography. This is broken record 0:01:42.196 --> 0:01:45.996 liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Ritchman. Here's 0:01:46.076 --> 0:01:48.556 Lea Rose's interview with Lowell Tollhurst. 0:01:49.396 --> 0:01:51.996 Let's start talking a little bit about the books. So 0:01:52.036 --> 0:01:55.756 you've written two books. The first is a memoir called Cured, 0:01:56.036 --> 0:02:00.196 the Tale of Two Imaginary Boys. The newest book goth 0:02:00.356 --> 0:02:04.516 a History. And I found the writing. I've been listening 0:02:04.556 --> 0:02:10.036 to the audio book of Cured, which you read, and 0:02:10.276 --> 0:02:14.156 it's just excellent. And it's been my walking partner now. 0:02:14.196 --> 0:02:18.236 I go on long walks and listen and the writing 0:02:18.316 --> 0:02:22.636 is so simple and straightforward and feels very uncluttered, and 0:02:22.676 --> 0:02:25.996 there's not a lot of ornamentation, and it struck me 0:02:26.076 --> 0:02:28.476 that it's sort of similar to your style as a drummer. 0:02:29.276 --> 0:02:32.676 Yeah, well, yes, thank you. You're the first person that's 0:02:32.756 --> 0:02:35.876 noticed that. And it's and that's why you're right. It's 0:02:35.956 --> 0:02:39.516 like i'd like to be. I wouldn't say minimalistic, but 0:02:39.556 --> 0:02:43.716 I but I don't have. I don't have a desire 0:02:43.796 --> 0:02:47.556 to make things heavily, you know, ornamented. I suppose it 0:02:47.596 --> 0:02:50.196 is the word, you know, and that's true in writing. 0:02:50.236 --> 0:02:52.996 I mean, you know, if I think of the writers 0:02:53.036 --> 0:03:00.036 that I really admire, they pay great attention to the sentence. 0:03:00.116 --> 0:03:02.396 And that's that's how I do. I don't you know. 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:06.396 It's funny. I love notebooks, you know. I obsessively collect 0:03:06.516 --> 0:03:11.076 notebooks because I think they're beautiful. And I write stuff 0:03:11.116 --> 0:03:13.076 in it, and then you know, two weeks later, I 0:03:13.116 --> 0:03:15.556 look at it and I can't one of my right well, 0:03:15.996 --> 0:03:19.516 I can't read my own writing. So I type everything 0:03:19.636 --> 0:03:22.676 straight away. But what I do do is as I 0:03:22.716 --> 0:03:26.156 type it out, and I do it like music, I 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:29.076 just let it flow, get the idea out, and then 0:03:29.116 --> 0:03:30.956 maybe two weeks later, I come back and I have 0:03:30.996 --> 0:03:33.476 a look at it and go, oh, okay, take that out, 0:03:33.556 --> 0:03:36.356 put this in, and I edit it. In drumming, you know, 0:03:36.476 --> 0:03:39.716 I loved Jackie Libbitts from Can because he would say, 0:03:39.996 --> 0:03:44.556 you have to play monotonous. And I understand that because 0:03:44.556 --> 0:03:46.796 it's like the mantra, and that's what I wanted to get. 0:03:46.836 --> 0:03:48.556 That's what I wanted to do with the drums. I 0:03:48.556 --> 0:03:50.316 wanted to make you feel that you're part of the 0:03:50.316 --> 0:03:56.116 whole thing, and that required it to be precise and minimalistic. 0:03:56.716 --> 0:03:59.076 The same thing with the writing. So writers that I 0:03:59.076 --> 0:04:03.356 really liked were like for this current book, goth it 0:04:03.476 --> 0:04:07.876 was hard for me to find my initial voice because 0:04:08.316 --> 0:04:11.036 I'm writing about the people. I'm not just writing my 0:04:11.116 --> 0:04:12.956 own experiences. I mean, there's a lot of my own 0:04:12.996 --> 0:04:15.676 stuff in there, but I'm writing about other people. I 0:04:16.516 --> 0:04:20.156 wanted to project the other people's stories in a way 0:04:20.236 --> 0:04:23.716 that wasn't just purely journalistic. I didn't want to do 0:04:23.796 --> 0:04:27.796 that because I'm not a journalist, And the way I 0:04:27.876 --> 0:04:31.076 personalized it was I'd been reading a lot of California 0:04:31.076 --> 0:04:34.596 writers Joan Didion from the sixties and seventies, and I 0:04:34.636 --> 0:04:37.836 love the way that all of her sentences are crafted 0:04:38.036 --> 0:04:42.556 very precisely, you know. So I thought, Okay, there's my template, 0:04:42.636 --> 0:04:44.716 you know. So that's very cool. But I'm glad that 0:04:44.796 --> 0:04:48.476 you actually you're the first person I know that said 0:04:48.476 --> 0:04:48.836 that to me. 0:04:48.916 --> 0:04:52.676 So yeah, I've really been enjoying it, and I highly 0:04:52.716 --> 0:04:55.756 recommend the audio book. A lot of times with audiobooks, 0:04:55.756 --> 0:04:59.156 you get sort of like a narrator who has no 0:04:59.196 --> 0:05:03.156 connection to the story, and they can put on voices 0:05:03.316 --> 0:05:06.036 when they're reading dialogue and it can be very distracting. 0:05:06.556 --> 0:05:10.996 So I really enjoyed hearing your voice because your story. 0:05:11.596 --> 0:05:14.796 Yeah, it's funny because at the beginning when I did Cured, 0:05:15.036 --> 0:05:18.276 and I actually recorded both Curd and the current book 0:05:18.316 --> 0:05:21.396 Goth in the same studio because I loved the place 0:05:21.436 --> 0:05:23.956 that I recorded in and also it's very near my house. 0:05:24.316 --> 0:05:28.676 But I remember the recording engineer at the end of 0:05:28.676 --> 0:05:31.636 one day said to me, Oh, I said that, you know, 0:05:31.756 --> 0:05:34.516 normally I'm not really involved with what's going on, you know, 0:05:35.156 --> 0:05:38.196 just like listening for you know, pops and clicks and stuff. 0:05:38.236 --> 0:05:40.796 He said. But he said, is there lights at the 0:05:40.876 --> 0:05:42.916 end of the tunnel with this? I said, yes, don't worry. 0:05:44.516 --> 0:05:48.276 The next couple of days you'll hear that, you know. Okay, 0:05:48.356 --> 0:05:49.076 it was funny. 0:05:49.396 --> 0:05:52.476 Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. So I wanted to start off 0:05:52.516 --> 0:05:56.556 by talking about the Cures Goth period as you outline 0:05:56.596 --> 0:06:00.796 it in the book goth A History. So the Cures 0:06:00.796 --> 0:06:03.756 Goth period, as you lay it out, consists of three 0:06:03.836 --> 0:06:08.996 consecutive albums. The first is seventeen Seconds, released in nineteen eight, 0:06:09.916 --> 0:06:13.396 Faith released in nineteen eighty one, and Pornography in nineteen 0:06:13.396 --> 0:06:17.076 eighty two. And these are all albums that you said 0:06:17.076 --> 0:06:21.396 you were deeply involved with making. Right, So let's start 0:06:21.396 --> 0:06:24.716 with seventeen Seconds. It's a cure second album. Do you 0:06:24.796 --> 0:06:29.396 remember any of the conversations within the band that led 0:06:29.476 --> 0:06:32.436 up to developing the sound for that album, because it 0:06:32.436 --> 0:06:35.236 was quite different than the sound from the first album. 0:06:35.556 --> 0:06:38.076 Well, I don't want to make up a story, because 0:06:38.116 --> 0:06:41.516 I don't. I don't think, you know, It's like when 0:06:41.556 --> 0:06:44.276 you when you write conversations in a book. A lot 0:06:44.276 --> 0:06:46.876 of the time, you know, I challenge anybody in the 0:06:46.916 --> 0:06:51.196 world to remember conversations for Betam, even from like yesterday. 0:06:51.396 --> 0:06:54.836 You can't. It's impossible. You know. Most of the time 0:06:55.116 --> 0:06:57.756 I would know, okay, I know how these people speak 0:06:57.796 --> 0:07:01.276 about things. I know what we talked about roughly. So 0:07:01.356 --> 0:07:03.316 I'm going to you know, I'm going to construct a 0:07:03.356 --> 0:07:07.316 conversation from that which will be in their voice and 0:07:07.476 --> 0:07:11.436 will be correct. I think with seventeen Seconds, we had 0:07:12.196 --> 0:07:15.156 our first album was really a live set that we 0:07:15.196 --> 0:07:17.836 had played for you know, a couple of years, and 0:07:17.916 --> 0:07:20.316 so that seemed the most obvious thing we go and 0:07:20.356 --> 0:07:22.316 record that we can do it quickly, we know what 0:07:22.316 --> 0:07:27.436 we're playing, and it happened. But for the second album, 0:07:27.676 --> 0:07:31.436 we finally realized that we had you know, we weren't 0:07:31.476 --> 0:07:33.236 just going to record one album and that was it. 0:07:33.316 --> 0:07:35.596 We had a chance to another record. You know, most 0:07:35.636 --> 0:07:38.076 people will tell you in bands that they sort of 0:07:38.076 --> 0:07:40.396 put everything into the first album and then suddenly think 0:07:40.436 --> 0:07:42.956 what are we going to do next? Because we you know, 0:07:43.076 --> 0:07:45.716 and usually it's like, you know, you have your whole 0:07:45.716 --> 0:07:47.556 life to make your first album, like they say, and 0:07:48.036 --> 0:07:51.556 six to do your second album. And we were kind 0:07:51.636 --> 0:07:55.116 of not really in that position, but we thought, okay, 0:07:55.156 --> 0:07:59.316 we better do what we really want to get out 0:07:59.436 --> 0:08:03.236 now what we were feeling at that time, because you know, 0:08:03.396 --> 0:08:06.076 maybe number two is it and that's all, well, we'll 0:08:06.076 --> 0:08:08.276 have the chance to do you know. We felt lucky 0:08:08.316 --> 0:08:11.436 with the first one and people liked it enough to say, well, 0:08:11.556 --> 0:08:14.676 let's start thinking about the second one. And that was 0:08:14.796 --> 0:08:18.396 really a great idea that Robert had because he said 0:08:18.876 --> 0:08:21.596 to you know, our manager Chris Parry would come in 0:08:21.636 --> 0:08:23.996 the studio for the first album. And for the first album, 0:08:23.996 --> 0:08:25.796 you know, we were fairly young, we didn't really know 0:08:25.876 --> 0:08:27.996 what we were doing. We would look at things and 0:08:28.436 --> 0:08:29.996 you know, sort of let them get on with it. 0:08:30.076 --> 0:08:32.836 Him and Mike Hedge as the engineer. So for the 0:08:32.876 --> 0:08:34.716 second album we said, well, you know what, we've seen 0:08:34.836 --> 0:08:36.836 enough of what goes on and how to do it. 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:39.196 We'd like to do it ourselves. And Robert was very 0:08:39.196 --> 0:08:42.236 insistent about that, we'd like to do it ourselves. And 0:08:42.436 --> 0:08:46.276 you know, it's a credit to Parry that he went, yeah, okay, 0:08:46.476 --> 0:08:49.516 that's fine. You know, his offices were in the same 0:08:49.596 --> 0:08:53.516 complex as the studio, so you know, once a week 0:08:53.556 --> 0:08:55.956 he would come down and just have a little listen, 0:08:56.156 --> 0:08:58.116 you know, so he left us to our own devices, 0:08:58.316 --> 0:09:01.436 and as I say in goth you know, to me 0:09:02.356 --> 0:09:05.676 it was a very creative time because we were allowed 0:09:05.716 --> 0:09:08.756 to do it ourselves. You know, we were given the 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:10.996 key to the kingdom and like we can go in 0:09:11.076 --> 0:09:14.636 and do it. So that leaves you to be a 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:16.916 lot more experimental. In fact, I was. I was telling 0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:19.756 somebody the other week that a lot of bands, when 0:09:19.796 --> 0:09:23.116 they start making you know, the second, third, fourth albums, 0:09:23.116 --> 0:09:26.596 they get this idea in their head that they have 0:09:26.756 --> 0:09:29.036 they will have separate roles and they have you know, 0:09:29.276 --> 0:09:33.116 I do this, you do that, and you know, that's 0:09:33.116 --> 0:09:34.556 how we make it work because. 0:09:34.436 --> 0:09:36.476 Sort of like the roles in a household or in 0:09:36.516 --> 0:09:39.556 a marriage or yeah, yeah. 0:09:39.396 --> 0:09:44.356 It's any kind of partnership, because you know, and not unreasonably, 0:09:44.436 --> 0:09:47.356 the theory goes, well, if it worked once, this is 0:09:47.876 --> 0:09:49.756 this is a formula, this is how we do it. 0:09:50.396 --> 0:09:53.836 And I think that's kind of misguided for two reasons. 0:09:53.876 --> 0:09:57.316 Because one, music's really modern. Music is really the only 0:09:57.356 --> 0:10:00.396 sort of art form where people are required to reproduce 0:10:00.436 --> 0:10:03.756 what they did before in the same way but slightly different. 0:10:03.916 --> 0:10:06.356 You know, they're like, you know, it's like a painter. 0:10:06.396 --> 0:10:07.996 You wouldn't say to a painter, well, paint me that 0:10:08.076 --> 0:10:11.116 portraits again, but from this different angle, that's what I 0:10:11.156 --> 0:10:14.756 want to see. You know, you let them do whatever 0:10:14.756 --> 0:10:18.036 they want to do. So for seventeen seconds. There was 0:10:18.076 --> 0:10:20.996 one session where we said, hey, let's just swap instruments. 0:10:21.596 --> 0:10:24.476 So you know, I played guitar and Robert played drums, 0:10:24.756 --> 0:10:27.436 and we recorded a couple of things. Most of them 0:10:27.436 --> 0:10:29.916 were terrible, so we decided that we go back to 0:10:29.956 --> 0:10:32.876 what we will do, but we kept some little snippets 0:10:32.876 --> 0:10:35.316 of it, and they're actually on the album in a way, 0:10:35.516 --> 0:10:37.436 you know, you don't really know where they are, but 0:10:37.516 --> 0:10:41.756 they're there. So that's also freeing in your mind. You 0:10:41.836 --> 0:10:45.636 don't have this thought process that, oh, you know, I 0:10:45.756 --> 0:10:48.516 have to just do this. You can put input into 0:10:48.596 --> 0:10:52.556 different areas and that's you know, if you trust each other, 0:10:52.636 --> 0:10:54.596 that's a good good way to do it, because then 0:10:54.636 --> 0:10:57.636 you've not just got, you know, one mind on one thing, 0:10:57.676 --> 0:11:00.956 You've got everybody's mind on everything, and that works, you know. 0:11:01.916 --> 0:11:03.836 And then Garthie wrote that over the years, there have 0:11:03.876 --> 0:11:06.636 been a lot of assumptions that have been made about 0:11:06.676 --> 0:11:11.196 The Cure's creative process, and I took that to mean 0:11:11.556 --> 0:11:14.676 that people just assumed that a lot of the songwriting 0:11:14.756 --> 0:11:19.196 came from Robert. But now you're saying that, inspired in 0:11:19.276 --> 0:11:23.196 part by your sobriety, that that wasn't always the case. 0:11:24.076 --> 0:11:26.956 No, I mean, you know, as things got further on 0:11:27.316 --> 0:11:29.876 in the Cure, you know, and to the point where 0:11:29.916 --> 0:11:33.356 I wasn't well enough to contribute like I was used to, 0:11:34.116 --> 0:11:37.116 you know, at the beginning, especially for those first, the second, third, 0:11:37.116 --> 0:11:42.556 and fourth album, they were much more democratic in their approach. 0:11:42.996 --> 0:11:46.436 And it's funny. I was talking to Paul Thompson a 0:11:46.476 --> 0:11:49.716 little while back, and I said, Oh, it tells you 0:11:49.756 --> 0:11:51.996 how far it was back because I just finished could 0:11:52.036 --> 0:11:54.836 and I said, he said, well, you know, I've always 0:11:54.916 --> 0:11:56.796 known you were a writer. You were a writer when 0:11:56.796 --> 0:11:59.956 we were fifteen or sixteen. And so I thought about 0:11:59.996 --> 0:12:01.436 it and I thought, well, yeah, you know a lot 0:12:01.476 --> 0:12:04.836 of the times, well Rober's going to sing the words, right, 0:12:04.956 --> 0:12:06.556 so you know, he has the final say on what 0:12:06.636 --> 0:12:08.476 he's going to sing, because you can't sing stuff that 0:12:08.516 --> 0:12:11.636 you don't believe. But there was a lot more collaboration 0:12:12.196 --> 0:12:16.196 and just you know, general molding of things back then, 0:12:16.396 --> 0:12:19.076 and that you know, I would put some words in, 0:12:19.116 --> 0:12:23.396 Simon put some words in now and again it's really 0:12:23.476 --> 0:12:28.876 guarantees to make things stronger now as things progress and 0:12:28.916 --> 0:12:31.676 people start, you know, it also happens, you know, for 0:12:31.836 --> 0:12:34.476 people that manage bands and stuff. It's a lot easier 0:12:34.476 --> 0:12:36.356 if you don't have to deal with everybody in the band. 0:12:36.356 --> 0:12:38.556 You just have to deal with one person. So you know, 0:12:38.676 --> 0:12:42.476 things things become that way, and you know, all credit 0:12:42.516 --> 0:12:45.676 to Robert is a great songwriter, and he's got a 0:12:45.716 --> 0:12:49.236 lot of good ideas. Personally, I think for the Cure, 0:12:49.316 --> 0:12:53.076 the best version of the three piece band was for 0:12:53.116 --> 0:12:55.316 those those albums, I mean, the first one was a 0:12:55.356 --> 0:13:00.596 four piece, but it's like the most pure and condensed 0:13:00.636 --> 0:13:04.676 of that band, and that was much more collaborative, you know. 0:13:05.036 --> 0:13:08.076 So you know that's the thing. It's like, I don't 0:13:08.156 --> 0:13:11.236 want to turn around and oh no, he never wrote anything, 0:13:11.276 --> 0:13:15.316 because that's not true. He's obviously the songwriter, but that 0:13:15.356 --> 0:13:17.956 doesn't mean that anybody else didn't do it. I mean, 0:13:18.156 --> 0:13:20.316 and it went on. We tried different formats of that. 0:13:20.356 --> 0:13:23.436 You know, when we did kiss Me, we had so 0:13:23.516 --> 0:13:27.276 many songs because we'd all by this time. We didn't 0:13:27.276 --> 0:13:30.076 do stuff together. We did it separately, you know, so 0:13:30.116 --> 0:13:32.516 we will have little studios at home and go, okay, 0:13:33.316 --> 0:13:35.316 six months and then we'll come back together and we'll 0:13:35.316 --> 0:13:40.276 see what we've got. And that's the reason that you know, 0:13:40.436 --> 0:13:42.036 Kissed Me was like a double album. I mean, it 0:13:42.036 --> 0:13:44.796 could have been a triple album. We had one hundred 0:13:44.836 --> 0:13:48.076 bits of songs to start with, and then we whittled 0:13:48.076 --> 0:13:50.476 that down to like thirty five and then finally to 0:13:50.956 --> 0:13:55.636 seventeen or nineteen something like that. You know, So everybody 0:13:56.036 --> 0:13:59.196 had some creativity, you know, and that was what was 0:13:59.236 --> 0:14:02.116 pretty good about the curt because when you put that 0:14:02.116 --> 0:14:04.236 all together, it's unstoppable, you know. 0:14:04.836 --> 0:14:09.076 Yeah, I was curious about the song play for today. Yeah, 0:14:09.556 --> 0:14:12.556 so that's the second song on seventeen seconds, and it's 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:17.316 a pretty substantial mood shift from the intro. Do you 0:14:17.316 --> 0:14:18.876 remember how that song came together? 0:14:18.996 --> 0:14:21.756 And I seem to remember that we had a sort 0:14:21.756 --> 0:14:24.916 of rough version of that when Michael Dempsey was around. 0:14:25.156 --> 0:14:27.276 But anyway, but I know for the lyric, it was 0:14:27.356 --> 0:14:30.436 the first time that I'd felt like I could write 0:14:30.436 --> 0:14:35.436 a lyric that was accessible to my feelings, you know, 0:14:35.756 --> 0:14:41.676 because the previous things like Three Emery Boys and Fire 0:14:41.796 --> 0:14:45.476 in Cairo and Another Day, they were they were far 0:14:45.596 --> 0:14:49.836 more impressionistic, you know, in the way that I presented things. 0:14:50.716 --> 0:14:53.236 So that's it. That's why there's a difference, because it's 0:14:53.316 --> 0:14:59.036 much more to the point and less flowery, I suppose 0:14:59.196 --> 0:15:01.196 is the world And. 0:15:01.116 --> 0:15:02.836 That's a breakthrough I imagine as a writer. 0:15:03.716 --> 0:15:07.396 Well, yeah, I mean I don't think that at however 0:15:07.436 --> 0:15:11.836 old I was then twenty that I even thought about that. 0:15:11.876 --> 0:15:14.676 I didn't. I just sort of instinctively felt, oh, well, 0:15:14.716 --> 0:15:17.796 this this is a better kind of thing, This is 0:15:17.836 --> 0:15:21.236 a better this is more what I want to say. 0:15:21.676 --> 0:15:23.276 It's just the only way I knew how to deal 0:15:23.356 --> 0:15:28.276 with it, you know, write it down so Robert liked it, 0:15:28.396 --> 0:15:30.556 and so off if it went you know. 0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:33.236 So is that like you, you wrote the entire lyrics, 0:15:33.316 --> 0:15:35.796 gave it to him and then he interpreted it. 0:15:36.476 --> 0:15:40.876 As gave him sort of like the basis for it all, 0:15:41.076 --> 0:15:44.396 and probably chopped and changed a few things around, because 0:15:44.436 --> 0:15:48.396 you know, people forget, you know, like songs are not 0:15:49.356 --> 0:15:52.796 it's not poetry writing and it's not pros it's this 0:15:52.956 --> 0:15:57.756 weird hybrid in between lyrics and lyrics A lot of 0:15:57.756 --> 0:16:00.796 the time work better if they're on a matter pig 0:16:01.076 --> 0:16:05.276 and some lyrics work better sometimes if they're not quite 0:16:05.396 --> 0:16:08.876 grammatically correct or or you know, certain words, certain words 0:16:08.876 --> 0:16:11.276 you just can't sing or you could try. But you know, 0:16:12.716 --> 0:16:15.836 so that decision was always left, you know, obviously to 0:16:15.876 --> 0:16:17.596 the singer. So that's how that worked. 0:16:17.636 --> 0:16:21.996 Really, I imagine you must find it interesting to see 0:16:21.996 --> 0:16:25.996 what songs resonate with a really wide audience after you 0:16:26.036 --> 0:16:29.796 release album. And do you have these theories why a 0:16:29.836 --> 0:16:31.676 forest caught on the way it did. 0:16:32.596 --> 0:16:37.596 Yeah, it's like audiences don't buy and large. I mean, 0:16:37.596 --> 0:16:40.836 obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Audiences are not 0:16:40.996 --> 0:16:46.956 looking at you thinking or listening to you thinking, oh, 0:16:47.076 --> 0:16:49.716 that was good the way they played that, or that 0:16:49.836 --> 0:16:52.876 was good, the way that's put together. That it's much 0:16:52.916 --> 0:16:56.356 more visceral than that, you know. They it's like it's 0:16:56.396 --> 0:17:00.516 like it's like drums, right, Most people other than drummers 0:17:00.756 --> 0:17:04.196 don't really notice what's going on with the drummer. But 0:17:04.316 --> 0:17:07.956 if something's wrong, if something goes bad, they might not 0:17:07.996 --> 0:17:10.956 even know what it is. But oh no, something's not right, 0:17:11.876 --> 0:17:14.276 something's off. It doesn't feel right, and they don't know 0:17:14.316 --> 0:17:18.316 what it is. So the point where it works for 0:17:18.356 --> 0:17:25.596 an audience is when they understand completely that it's you 0:17:25.996 --> 0:17:29.916 and your expression. Right. It's not to do with how 0:17:29.956 --> 0:17:33.476 well you play or how bad you play. No, it's 0:17:33.756 --> 0:17:39.116 it's a terribly overused word lately, but it's authenticity, you know, 0:17:39.236 --> 0:17:40.316 and that's what they feel. 0:17:40.836 --> 0:17:43.476 Do you remember why you decided to bring the drums 0:17:43.516 --> 0:17:45.596 in when you did? In a forest? 0:17:46.716 --> 0:17:48.716 You know, we'd we had liked to a lot of 0:17:48.796 --> 0:17:51.476 like the early sort of crowd rock bands, you know, 0:17:51.676 --> 0:17:55.596 Can and NOI, And like what I always liked about 0:17:55.676 --> 0:17:59.236 them was was things feel like they're going forward with 0:17:59.316 --> 0:18:02.476 that motoric beat, but they also seem to stay in 0:18:02.516 --> 0:18:05.436 the same place as well. You know, it's like it's 0:18:05.436 --> 0:18:08.796 static but it's but it's moving, you know, and act 0:18:09.276 --> 0:18:12.076 seemed like the thing that we really wanted to express 0:18:12.116 --> 0:18:16.396 with the drums. So Mike Hedges was instrumental in getting 0:18:16.396 --> 0:18:18.276 that sound. You know. He used a lot of different 0:18:18.276 --> 0:18:20.956 techniques which we'd never seen before, and I don't think 0:18:20.996 --> 0:18:23.156 a lot of people used him at the time even so, 0:18:23.796 --> 0:18:25.956 and he was young like us as well, you know, 0:18:26.036 --> 0:18:29.476 so we had open minds about what you do. You know, 0:18:29.516 --> 0:18:31.516 he wasn't stuck with like, oh no, this is how 0:18:31.556 --> 0:18:34.756 you recall drums, you can't do anything anything else. We 0:18:34.756 --> 0:18:36.916 we were open to doing it a different way. I 0:18:36.956 --> 0:18:39.236 think also, like somebody said to me the other night, 0:18:39.516 --> 0:18:44.276 it's you know, the lyric. I thought the title, Robert 0:18:44.276 --> 0:18:46.756 did the lyric, but the actual lyric, if you think 0:18:46.756 --> 0:18:50.596 about it, is the sort of encapsulation of everything goth 0:18:50.676 --> 0:18:53.796 and romantic. If you think about it, it's like there's 0:18:53.876 --> 0:18:56.996 this sense of mystery, there's this sense of you know, 0:18:57.236 --> 0:18:59.396 loss at the same time, and it's all there in 0:18:59.396 --> 0:19:03.236 one very succinct lyric. So I think that's what we 0:19:03.956 --> 0:19:05.116 respond to. You know. 0:19:05.596 --> 0:19:10.596 Yeah, you described your drumming style on album. Is you 0:19:10.676 --> 0:19:13.196 play monotonous half Man, half Machine? 0:19:13.636 --> 0:19:17.876 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's Jackie Levi from Can that's his quote. 0:19:17.956 --> 0:19:21.556 Yeah, okay, yeah, I thought that it was a drum 0:19:21.556 --> 0:19:26.596 machine to Yeah, that seems sort of like it would 0:19:26.636 --> 0:19:28.836 be hard to keep up, especially playing live. 0:19:29.876 --> 0:19:33.756 Yes, very hard, But you know the thing is, it's 0:19:33.876 --> 0:19:37.476 it's like practicing. People think sometimes they watch drummers who 0:19:37.516 --> 0:19:39.596 are very flammby and they think, oh, that must be 0:19:39.716 --> 0:19:42.716 very hard, and sometimes it is, but most of the 0:19:42.796 --> 0:19:46.916 time that's a bit like a sort of a sideshow trick. 0:19:47.036 --> 0:19:49.836 You know. It's like I once sort of thing with 0:19:49.876 --> 0:19:53.076 Ginger Baker and he said, you know, people think I'm 0:19:53.076 --> 0:19:55.676 playing things really fast, but what I'm doing is I'm 0:19:55.676 --> 0:20:00.756 playing lots of quite simple things but on different limbs, 0:20:00.756 --> 0:20:03.996 slightly shifted from each other, and it gives the impression 0:20:04.036 --> 0:20:07.316 of going really fast. And you know, I know that's 0:20:07.436 --> 0:20:10.036 very difficult to do because you you've got to think 0:20:10.036 --> 0:20:14.716 about everything all at the same time. But in terms 0:20:14.796 --> 0:20:19.956 of physicality, you know, it sounds faster than your body 0:20:20.036 --> 0:20:22.276 is actually kind of doing. It's hard to explain, but 0:20:22.316 --> 0:20:25.196 it kind of it sounds like that in drumming. I 0:20:25.196 --> 0:20:30.316 always tell people. If you're doing it right, you could 0:20:30.316 --> 0:20:33.436 play for hours and you'll just feel elevated. You know, 0:20:33.476 --> 0:20:35.836 you can walk off stage three or four hours and 0:20:35.876 --> 0:20:39.276 you'll feel fine. If you're doing it wrong, it's like 0:20:39.396 --> 0:20:42.276 running the worst marathon. If you're like and you know 0:20:42.356 --> 0:20:45.436 at the end you're like, you can't sit up. It's 0:20:45.476 --> 0:20:48.956 really like dancing. You know, you just have to remember, okay, 0:20:48.996 --> 0:20:51.236 well that wasn't right, but it has to move to 0:20:51.316 --> 0:20:53.836 here now that has been there, and as long as 0:20:53.876 --> 0:20:58.156 you can get in that, yeah, you'll be fine. You know. 0:20:58.276 --> 0:21:01.356 But that's the trick. The trick is to learn how 0:21:01.396 --> 0:21:03.956 to do that. It's like, you know, I watched guitarists 0:21:03.996 --> 0:21:07.236 a lot, and I think to myself, how do they 0:21:07.316 --> 0:21:10.956 know just instinctively their fingers are going, They're not looking, 0:21:11.196 --> 0:21:13.596 and it's but it's just that, you know, you have to. 0:21:13.716 --> 0:21:17.396 It's like Malcolm Gladwell in his book out Outlet as 0:21:17.396 --> 0:21:20.876 he said, you know, some people think it's a bit dismissive, 0:21:20.876 --> 0:21:22.156 but I don't think it is said, like, you know, 0:21:22.196 --> 0:21:24.476 the difference between being good and being great is like 0:21:24.596 --> 0:21:28.036 ten thousand hours of practice. He's got a point, you know, 0:21:28.076 --> 0:21:29.916 because if I think about it, at the beginning when 0:21:29.916 --> 0:21:32.236 we started to kill. We spent the first three years 0:21:32.356 --> 0:21:35.556 at Robert's house just playing like three times a week. 0:21:35.596 --> 0:21:37.316 It was more of a social thing. We just meet 0:21:37.356 --> 0:21:39.956 their you know, play, go down the park, come back, 0:21:39.996 --> 0:21:42.236 play a bit more. But that's where we got a 0:21:42.316 --> 0:21:43.956 ten thousand hours. 0:21:43.556 --> 0:21:47.556 You know, before we move on from seventeen seconds. Is 0:21:47.556 --> 0:21:50.716 there any other stories you want to share anything from 0:21:50.756 --> 0:21:53.436 that period overall? That's important to know. 0:21:54.156 --> 0:21:56.036 I don't know. I think I think more than anything, 0:21:56.516 --> 0:22:00.676 like saying in goth it was for me, but I think, 0:22:00.916 --> 0:22:03.516 you know, I think I can say it for everybody else. 0:22:03.556 --> 0:22:07.356 It was it was a discovery of our own ethos. Really, 0:22:07.636 --> 0:22:09.836 you know, it was a discovery of who we really 0:22:09.876 --> 0:22:12.396 were and that we could be who we really were 0:22:12.516 --> 0:22:15.876 and do something with it, you know, whereas before we 0:22:15.956 --> 0:22:18.476 felt a bit more constrained. That's really why when I 0:22:19.116 --> 0:22:21.996 talked about it, when Robert, you know, it's a bit 0:22:22.036 --> 0:22:24.476 dismissive of the first album, it's because you know, it 0:22:24.516 --> 0:22:28.476 wasn't wholly our involvement. It was like, yes, it was us, 0:22:28.516 --> 0:22:31.636