1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:23,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Lowll Tolhurst is the drummer and co founder of 2 00:00:23,596 --> 00:00:26,716 Speaker 1: The Cure. He first met lead singer Robert Smith when 3 00:00:26,716 --> 00:00:29,396 Speaker 1: they were just five years old. Together with their other 4 00:00:29,436 --> 00:00:32,836 Speaker 1: Catholic school friend, Michael Dempsey, they went on to make dark, 5 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:36,356 Speaker 1: brooding music that reflected the isolation they felt as the 6 00:00:36,396 --> 00:00:40,036 Speaker 1: only punks living in their small English town. As the 7 00:00:40,036 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 1: Cures sound developed in the eighties, they released a string 8 00:00:42,996 --> 00:00:45,716 Speaker 1: of three albums that Loll now defines as the band's 9 00:00:45,796 --> 00:00:49,436 Speaker 1: quote unquote goth period. Today, we'll hear Loll talk in 10 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:53,436 Speaker 1: detail about the making of those records. He'll also discuss 11 00:00:53,516 --> 00:00:57,316 Speaker 1: the book he just released last month called goth a History, 12 00:00:57,916 --> 00:01:01,036 Speaker 1: which explores the architects of the post punk genre bands 13 00:01:01,036 --> 00:01:05,116 Speaker 1: like Susie, The Banshees, Joy Division, and Bauhaus. In addition 14 00:01:05,156 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: to the book, Lol is also releasing a new album 15 00:01:07,796 --> 00:01:10,636 Speaker 1: with his old friend Budget, the drummer from the Banchees. 16 00:01:11,316 --> 00:01:13,956 Speaker 1: The album's called Los Angeles and it features an all 17 00:01:13,996 --> 00:01:16,796 Speaker 1: star list of guests including You Two's The Edge and 18 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:21,516 Speaker 1: LCD Sound Systems James Murphy. On today's episode, Lea Rose 19 00:01:21,556 --> 00:01:24,036 Speaker 1: talks to Little Tollhurst about growing up an outcast in 20 00:01:24,116 --> 00:01:26,796 Speaker 1: post World War two England and how he and Robert 21 00:01:26,876 --> 00:01:30,756 Speaker 1: Smith first bonded over a Hendrix record. Lowe also gives 22 00:01:30,796 --> 00:01:33,956 Speaker 1: a window into the creation of the Cures three goth albums. 23 00:01:34,276 --> 00:01:41,876 Speaker 1: That's seventeen seconds, Faith and Pornography. This is broken record 24 00:01:42,196 --> 00:01:45,996 Speaker 1: liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Ritchman. Here's 25 00:01:46,076 --> 00:01:48,556 Speaker 1: Lea Rose's interview with Lowell Tollhurst. 26 00:01:49,396 --> 00:01:51,996 Speaker 2: Let's start talking a little bit about the books. So 27 00:01:52,036 --> 00:01:55,756 Speaker 2: you've written two books. The first is a memoir called Cured, 28 00:01:56,036 --> 00:02:00,196 Speaker 2: the Tale of Two Imaginary Boys. The newest book goth 29 00:02:00,356 --> 00:02:04,516 Speaker 2: a History. And I found the writing. I've been listening 30 00:02:04,556 --> 00:02:10,036 Speaker 2: to the audio book of Cured, which you read, and 31 00:02:10,276 --> 00:02:14,156 Speaker 2: it's just excellent. And it's been my walking partner now. 32 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:18,236 Speaker 2: I go on long walks and listen and the writing 33 00:02:18,316 --> 00:02:22,636 Speaker 2: is so simple and straightforward and feels very uncluttered, and 34 00:02:22,676 --> 00:02:25,996 Speaker 2: there's not a lot of ornamentation, and it struck me 35 00:02:26,076 --> 00:02:28,476 Speaker 2: that it's sort of similar to your style as a drummer. 36 00:02:29,276 --> 00:02:32,676 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yes, thank you. You're the first person that's 37 00:02:32,756 --> 00:02:35,876 Speaker 3: noticed that. And it's and that's why you're right. It's 38 00:02:35,956 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 3: like i'd like to be. I wouldn't say minimalistic, but 39 00:02:39,556 --> 00:02:43,716 Speaker 3: I but I don't have. I don't have a desire 40 00:02:43,796 --> 00:02:47,556 Speaker 3: to make things heavily, you know, ornamented. I suppose it 41 00:02:47,596 --> 00:02:50,196 Speaker 3: is the word, you know, and that's true in writing. 42 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:52,996 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, if I think of the writers 43 00:02:53,036 --> 00:03:00,036 Speaker 3: that I really admire, they pay great attention to the sentence. 44 00:03:00,116 --> 00:03:02,396 Speaker 3: And that's that's how I do. I don't you know. 45 00:03:02,676 --> 00:03:06,396 Speaker 3: It's funny. I love notebooks, you know. I obsessively collect 46 00:03:06,516 --> 00:03:11,076 Speaker 3: notebooks because I think they're beautiful. And I write stuff 47 00:03:11,116 --> 00:03:13,076 Speaker 3: in it, and then you know, two weeks later, I 48 00:03:13,116 --> 00:03:15,556 Speaker 3: look at it and I can't one of my right well, 49 00:03:15,996 --> 00:03:19,516 Speaker 3: I can't read my own writing. So I type everything 50 00:03:19,636 --> 00:03:22,676 Speaker 3: straight away. But what I do do is as I 51 00:03:22,716 --> 00:03:26,156 Speaker 3: type it out, and I do it like music, I 52 00:03:26,316 --> 00:03:29,076 Speaker 3: just let it flow, get the idea out, and then 53 00:03:29,116 --> 00:03:30,956 Speaker 3: maybe two weeks later, I come back and I have 54 00:03:30,996 --> 00:03:33,476 Speaker 3: a look at it and go, oh, okay, take that out, 55 00:03:33,556 --> 00:03:36,356 Speaker 3: put this in, and I edit it. In drumming, you know, 56 00:03:36,476 --> 00:03:39,716 Speaker 3: I loved Jackie Libbitts from Can because he would say, 57 00:03:39,996 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 3: you have to play monotonous. And I understand that because 58 00:03:44,556 --> 00:03:46,796 Speaker 3: it's like the mantra, and that's what I wanted to get. 59 00:03:46,836 --> 00:03:48,556 Speaker 3: That's what I wanted to do with the drums. I 60 00:03:48,556 --> 00:03:50,316 Speaker 3: wanted to make you feel that you're part of the 61 00:03:50,316 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 3: whole thing, and that required it to be precise and minimalistic. 62 00:03:56,716 --> 00:03:59,076 Speaker 3: The same thing with the writing. So writers that I 63 00:03:59,076 --> 00:04:03,356 Speaker 3: really liked were like for this current book, goth it 64 00:04:03,476 --> 00:04:07,876 Speaker 3: was hard for me to find my initial voice because 65 00:04:08,316 --> 00:04:11,036 Speaker 3: I'm writing about the people. I'm not just writing my 66 00:04:11,116 --> 00:04:12,956 Speaker 3: own experiences. I mean, there's a lot of my own 67 00:04:12,996 --> 00:04:15,676 Speaker 3: stuff in there, but I'm writing about other people. I 68 00:04:16,516 --> 00:04:20,156 Speaker 3: wanted to project the other people's stories in a way 69 00:04:20,236 --> 00:04:23,716 Speaker 3: that wasn't just purely journalistic. I didn't want to do 70 00:04:23,796 --> 00:04:27,796 Speaker 3: that because I'm not a journalist, And the way I 71 00:04:27,876 --> 00:04:31,076 Speaker 3: personalized it was I'd been reading a lot of California 72 00:04:31,076 --> 00:04:34,596 Speaker 3: writers Joan Didion from the sixties and seventies, and I 73 00:04:34,636 --> 00:04:37,836 Speaker 3: love the way that all of her sentences are crafted 74 00:04:38,036 --> 00:04:42,556 Speaker 3: very precisely, you know. So I thought, Okay, there's my template, 75 00:04:42,636 --> 00:04:44,716 Speaker 3: you know. So that's very cool. But I'm glad that 76 00:04:44,796 --> 00:04:48,476 Speaker 3: you actually you're the first person I know that said 77 00:04:48,476 --> 00:04:48,836 Speaker 3: that to me. 78 00:04:48,916 --> 00:04:52,676 Speaker 2: So yeah, I've really been enjoying it, and I highly 79 00:04:52,716 --> 00:04:55,756 Speaker 2: recommend the audio book. A lot of times with audiobooks, 80 00:04:55,756 --> 00:04:59,156 Speaker 2: you get sort of like a narrator who has no 81 00:04:59,196 --> 00:05:03,156 Speaker 2: connection to the story, and they can put on voices 82 00:05:03,316 --> 00:05:06,036 Speaker 2: when they're reading dialogue and it can be very distracting. 83 00:05:06,556 --> 00:05:10,996 Speaker 2: So I really enjoyed hearing your voice because your story. 84 00:05:11,596 --> 00:05:14,796 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny because at the beginning when I did Cured, 85 00:05:15,036 --> 00:05:18,276 Speaker 3: and I actually recorded both Curd and the current book 86 00:05:18,316 --> 00:05:21,396 Speaker 3: Goth in the same studio because I loved the place 87 00:05:21,436 --> 00:05:23,956 Speaker 3: that I recorded in and also it's very near my house. 88 00:05:24,316 --> 00:05:28,676 Speaker 3: But I remember the recording engineer at the end of 89 00:05:28,676 --> 00:05:31,636 Speaker 3: one day said to me, Oh, I said that, you know, 90 00:05:31,756 --> 00:05:34,516 Speaker 3: normally I'm not really involved with what's going on, you know, 91 00:05:35,156 --> 00:05:38,196 Speaker 3: just like listening for you know, pops and clicks and stuff. 92 00:05:38,236 --> 00:05:40,796 Speaker 3: He said. But he said, is there lights at the 93 00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:42,916 Speaker 3: end of the tunnel with this? I said, yes, don't worry. 94 00:05:44,516 --> 00:05:48,276 Speaker 3: The next couple of days you'll hear that, you know. Okay, 95 00:05:48,356 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 3: it was funny. 96 00:05:49,396 --> 00:05:52,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. So I wanted to start off 97 00:05:52,516 --> 00:05:56,556 Speaker 2: by talking about the Cures Goth period as you outline 98 00:05:56,596 --> 00:06:00,796 Speaker 2: it in the book goth A History. So the Cures 99 00:06:00,796 --> 00:06:03,756 Speaker 2: Goth period, as you lay it out, consists of three 100 00:06:03,836 --> 00:06:08,996 Speaker 2: consecutive albums. The first is seventeen Seconds, released in nineteen eight, 101 00:06:09,916 --> 00:06:13,396 Speaker 2: Faith released in nineteen eighty one, and Pornography in nineteen 102 00:06:13,396 --> 00:06:17,076 Speaker 2: eighty two. And these are all albums that you said 103 00:06:17,076 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 2: you were deeply involved with making. Right, So let's start 104 00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:24,716 Speaker 2: with seventeen Seconds. It's a cure second album. Do you 105 00:06:24,796 --> 00:06:29,396 Speaker 2: remember any of the conversations within the band that led 106 00:06:29,476 --> 00:06:32,436 Speaker 2: up to developing the sound for that album, because it 107 00:06:32,436 --> 00:06:35,236 Speaker 2: was quite different than the sound from the first album. 108 00:06:35,556 --> 00:06:38,076 Speaker 3: Well, I don't want to make up a story, because 109 00:06:38,116 --> 00:06:41,516 Speaker 3: I don't. I don't think, you know, It's like when 110 00:06:41,556 --> 00:06:44,276 Speaker 3: you when you write conversations in a book. A lot 111 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:46,876 Speaker 3: of the time, you know, I challenge anybody in the 112 00:06:46,916 --> 00:06:51,196 Speaker 3: world to remember conversations for Betam, even from like yesterday. 113 00:06:51,396 --> 00:06:54,836 Speaker 3: You can't. It's impossible. You know. Most of the time 114 00:06:55,116 --> 00:06:57,756 Speaker 3: I would know, okay, I know how these people speak 115 00:06:57,796 --> 00:07:01,276 Speaker 3: about things. I know what we talked about roughly. So 116 00:07:01,356 --> 00:07:03,316 Speaker 3: I'm going to you know, I'm going to construct a 117 00:07:03,356 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 3: conversation from that which will be in their voice and 118 00:07:07,476 --> 00:07:11,436 Speaker 3: will be correct. I think with seventeen Seconds, we had 119 00:07:12,196 --> 00:07:15,156 Speaker 3: our first album was really a live set that we 120 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:17,836 Speaker 3: had played for you know, a couple of years, and 121 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:20,316 Speaker 3: so that seemed the most obvious thing we go and 122 00:07:20,356 --> 00:07:22,316 Speaker 3: record that we can do it quickly, we know what 123 00:07:22,316 --> 00:07:27,436 Speaker 3: we're playing, and it happened. But for the second album, 124 00:07:27,676 --> 00:07:31,436 Speaker 3: we finally realized that we had you know, we weren't 125 00:07:31,476 --> 00:07:33,236 Speaker 3: just going to record one album and that was it. 126 00:07:33,316 --> 00:07:35,596 Speaker 3: We had a chance to another record. You know, most 127 00:07:35,636 --> 00:07:38,076 Speaker 3: people will tell you in bands that they sort of 128 00:07:38,076 --> 00:07:40,396 Speaker 3: put everything into the first album and then suddenly think 129 00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:42,956 Speaker 3: what are we going to do next? Because we you know, 130 00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:45,716 Speaker 3: and usually it's like, you know, you have your whole 131 00:07:45,716 --> 00:07:47,556 Speaker 3: life to make your first album, like they say, and 132 00:07:48,036 --> 00:07:51,556 Speaker 3: six to do your second album. And we were kind 133 00:07:51,636 --> 00:07:55,116 Speaker 3: of not really in that position, but we thought, okay, 134 00:07:55,156 --> 00:07:59,316 Speaker 3: we better do what we really want to get out 135 00:07:59,436 --> 00:08:03,236 Speaker 3: now what we were feeling at that time, because you know, 136 00:08:03,396 --> 00:08:06,076 Speaker 3: maybe number two is it and that's all, well, we'll 137 00:08:06,076 --> 00:08:08,276 Speaker 3: have the chance to do you know. We felt lucky 138 00:08:08,316 --> 00:08:11,436 Speaker 3: with the first one and people liked it enough to say, well, 139 00:08:11,556 --> 00:08:14,676 Speaker 3: let's start thinking about the second one. And that was 140 00:08:14,796 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 3: really a great idea that Robert had because he said 141 00:08:18,876 --> 00:08:21,596 Speaker 3: to you know, our manager Chris Parry would come in 142 00:08:21,636 --> 00:08:23,996 Speaker 3: the studio for the first album. And for the first album, 143 00:08:23,996 --> 00:08:25,796 Speaker 3: you know, we were fairly young, we didn't really know 144 00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:27,996 Speaker 3: what we were doing. We would look at things and 145 00:08:28,436 --> 00:08:29,996 Speaker 3: you know, sort of let them get on with it. 146 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:32,836 Speaker 3: Him and Mike Hedge as the engineer. So for the 147 00:08:32,876 --> 00:08:34,716 Speaker 3: second album we said, well, you know what, we've seen 148 00:08:34,836 --> 00:08:36,836 Speaker 3: enough of what goes on and how to do it. 149 00:08:36,876 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 3: We'd like to do it ourselves. And Robert was very 150 00:08:39,196 --> 00:08:42,236 Speaker 3: insistent about that, we'd like to do it ourselves. And 151 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:46,276 Speaker 3: you know, it's a credit to Parry that he went, yeah, okay, 152 00:08:46,476 --> 00:08:49,516 Speaker 3: that's fine. You know, his offices were in the same 153 00:08:49,596 --> 00:08:53,516 Speaker 3: complex as the studio, so you know, once a week 154 00:08:53,556 --> 00:08:55,956 Speaker 3: he would come down and just have a little listen, 155 00:08:56,156 --> 00:08:58,116 Speaker 3: you know, so he left us to our own devices, 156 00:08:58,316 --> 00:09:01,436 Speaker 3: and as I say in goth you know, to me 157 00:09:02,356 --> 00:09:05,676 Speaker 3: it was a very creative time because we were allowed 158 00:09:05,716 --> 00:09:08,756 Speaker 3: to do it ourselves. You know, we were given the 159 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:10,996 Speaker 3: key to the kingdom and like we can go in 160 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 3: and do it. So that leaves you to be a 161 00:09:14,676 --> 00:09:16,916 Speaker 3: lot more experimental. In fact, I was. I was telling 162 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:19,756 Speaker 3: somebody the other week that a lot of bands, when 163 00:09:19,796 --> 00:09:23,116 Speaker 3: they start making you know, the second, third, fourth albums, 164 00:09:23,116 --> 00:09:26,596 Speaker 3: they get this idea in their head that they have 165 00:09:26,756 --> 00:09:29,036 Speaker 3: they will have separate roles and they have you know, 166 00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:33,116 Speaker 3: I do this, you do that, and you know, that's 167 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:34,556 Speaker 3: how we make it work because. 168 00:09:34,436 --> 00:09:36,476 Speaker 2: Sort of like the roles in a household or in 169 00:09:36,516 --> 00:09:39,556 Speaker 2: a marriage or yeah, yeah. 170 00:09:39,396 --> 00:09:44,356 Speaker 3: It's any kind of partnership, because you know, and not unreasonably, 171 00:09:44,436 --> 00:09:47,356 Speaker 3: the theory goes, well, if it worked once, this is 172 00:09:47,876 --> 00:09:49,756 Speaker 3: this is a formula, this is how we do it. 173 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:53,836 Speaker 3: And I think that's kind of misguided for two reasons. 174 00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:57,316 Speaker 3: Because one, music's really modern. Music is really the only 175 00:09:57,356 --> 00:10:00,396 Speaker 3: sort of art form where people are required to reproduce 176 00:10:00,436 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 3: what they did before in the same way but slightly different. 177 00:10:03,916 --> 00:10:06,356 Speaker 3: You know, they're like, you know, it's like a painter. 178 00:10:06,396 --> 00:10:07,996 Speaker 3: You wouldn't say to a painter, well, paint me that 179 00:10:08,076 --> 00:10:11,116 Speaker 3: portraits again, but from this different angle, that's what I 180 00:10:11,156 --> 00:10:14,756 Speaker 3: want to see. You know, you let them do whatever 181 00:10:14,756 --> 00:10:18,036 Speaker 3: they want to do. So for seventeen seconds. There was 182 00:10:18,076 --> 00:10:20,996 Speaker 3: one session where we said, hey, let's just swap instruments. 183 00:10:21,596 --> 00:10:24,476 Speaker 3: So you know, I played guitar and Robert played drums, 184 00:10:24,756 --> 00:10:27,436 Speaker 3: and we recorded a couple of things. Most of them 185 00:10:27,436 --> 00:10:29,916 Speaker 3: were terrible, so we decided that we go back to 186 00:10:29,956 --> 00:10:32,876 Speaker 3: what we will do, but we kept some little snippets 187 00:10:32,876 --> 00:10:35,316 Speaker 3: of it, and they're actually on the album in a way, 188 00:10:35,516 --> 00:10:37,436 Speaker 3: you know, you don't really know where they are, but 189 00:10:37,516 --> 00:10:41,756 Speaker 3: they're there. So that's also freeing in your mind. You 190 00:10:41,836 --> 00:10:45,636 Speaker 3: don't have this thought process that, oh, you know, I 191 00:10:45,756 --> 00:10:48,516 Speaker 3: have to just do this. You can put input into 192 00:10:48,596 --> 00:10:52,556 Speaker 3: different areas and that's you know, if you trust each other, 193 00:10:52,636 --> 00:10:54,596 Speaker 3: that's a good good way to do it, because then 194 00:10:54,636 --> 00:10:57,636 Speaker 3: you've not just got, you know, one mind on one thing, 195 00:10:57,676 --> 00:11:00,956 Speaker 3: You've got everybody's mind on everything, and that works, you know. 196 00:11:01,916 --> 00:11:03,836 Speaker 2: And then Garthie wrote that over the years, there have 197 00:11:03,876 --> 00:11:06,636 Speaker 2: been a lot of assumptions that have been made about 198 00:11:06,676 --> 00:11:11,196 Speaker 2: The Cure's creative process, and I took that to mean 199 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:14,676 Speaker 2: that people just assumed that a lot of the songwriting 200 00:11:14,756 --> 00:11:19,196 Speaker 2: came from Robert. But now you're saying that, inspired in 201 00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:23,196 Speaker 2: part by your sobriety, that that wasn't always the case. 202 00:11:24,076 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 3: No, I mean, you know, as things got further on 203 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 3: in the Cure, you know, and to the point where 204 00:11:29,916 --> 00:11:33,356 Speaker 3: I wasn't well enough to contribute like I was used to, 205 00:11:34,116 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 3: you know, at the beginning, especially for those first, the second, third, 206 00:11:37,116 --> 00:11:42,556 Speaker 3: and fourth album, they were much more democratic in their approach. 207 00:11:42,996 --> 00:11:46,436 Speaker 3: And it's funny. I was talking to Paul Thompson a 208 00:11:46,476 --> 00:11:49,716 Speaker 3: little while back, and I said, Oh, it tells you 209 00:11:49,756 --> 00:11:51,996 Speaker 3: how far it was back because I just finished could 210 00:11:52,036 --> 00:11:54,836 Speaker 3: and I said, he said, well, you know, I've always 211 00:11:54,916 --> 00:11:56,796 Speaker 3: known you were a writer. You were a writer when 212 00:11:56,796 --> 00:11:59,956 Speaker 3: we were fifteen or sixteen. And so I thought about 213 00:11:59,996 --> 00:12:01,436 Speaker 3: it and I thought, well, yeah, you know a lot 214 00:12:01,476 --> 00:12:04,836 Speaker 3: of the times, well Rober's going to sing the words, right, 215 00:12:04,956 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 3: so you know, he has the final say on what 216 00:12:06,636 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 3: he's going to sing, because you can't sing stuff that 217 00:12:08,516 --> 00:12:11,636 Speaker 3: you don't believe. But there was a lot more collaboration 218 00:12:12,196 --> 00:12:16,196 Speaker 3: and just you know, general molding of things back then, 219 00:12:16,396 --> 00:12:19,076 Speaker 3: and that you know, I would put some words in, 220 00:12:19,116 --> 00:12:23,396 Speaker 3: Simon put some words in now and again it's really 221 00:12:23,476 --> 00:12:28,876 Speaker 3: guarantees to make things stronger now as things progress and 222 00:12:28,916 --> 00:12:31,676 Speaker 3: people start, you know, it also happens, you know, for 223 00:12:31,836 --> 00:12:34,476 Speaker 3: people that manage bands and stuff. It's a lot easier 224 00:12:34,476 --> 00:12:36,356 Speaker 3: if you don't have to deal with everybody in the band. 225 00:12:36,356 --> 00:12:38,556 Speaker 3: You just have to deal with one person. So you know, 226 00:12:38,676 --> 00:12:42,476 Speaker 3: things things become that way, and you know, all credit 227 00:12:42,516 --> 00:12:45,676 Speaker 3: to Robert is a great songwriter, and he's got a 228 00:12:45,716 --> 00:12:49,236 Speaker 3: lot of good ideas. Personally, I think for the Cure, 229 00:12:49,316 --> 00:12:53,076 Speaker 3: the best version of the three piece band was for 230 00:12:53,116 --> 00:12:55,316 Speaker 3: those those albums, I mean, the first one was a 231 00:12:55,356 --> 00:13:00,596 Speaker 3: four piece, but it's like the most pure and condensed 232 00:13:00,636 --> 00:13:04,676 Speaker 3: of that band, and that was much more collaborative, you know. 233 00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:08,076 Speaker 3: So you know that's the thing. It's like, I don't 234 00:13:08,156 --> 00:13:11,236 Speaker 3: want to turn around and oh no, he never wrote anything, 235 00:13:11,276 --> 00:13:15,316 Speaker 3: because that's not true. He's obviously the songwriter, but that 236 00:13:15,356 --> 00:13:17,956 Speaker 3: doesn't mean that anybody else didn't do it. I mean, 237 00:13:18,156 --> 00:13:20,316 Speaker 3: and it went on. We tried different formats of that. 238 00:13:20,356 --> 00:13:23,436 Speaker 3: You know, when we did kiss Me, we had so 239 00:13:23,516 --> 00:13:27,276 Speaker 3: many songs because we'd all by this time. We didn't 240 00:13:27,276 --> 00:13:30,076 Speaker 3: do stuff together. We did it separately, you know, so 241 00:13:30,116 --> 00:13:32,516 Speaker 3: we will have little studios at home and go, okay, 242 00:13:33,316 --> 00:13:35,316 Speaker 3: six months and then we'll come back together and we'll 243 00:13:35,316 --> 00:13:40,276 Speaker 3: see what we've got. And that's the reason that you know, 244 00:13:40,436 --> 00:13:42,036 Speaker 3: Kissed Me was like a double album. I mean, it 245 00:13:42,036 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 3: could have been a triple album. We had one hundred 246 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:48,076 Speaker 3: bits of songs to start with, and then we whittled 247 00:13:48,076 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 3: that down to like thirty five and then finally to 248 00:13:50,956 --> 00:13:55,636 Speaker 3: seventeen or nineteen something like that. You know, So everybody 249 00:13:56,036 --> 00:13:59,196 Speaker 3: had some creativity, you know, and that was what was 250 00:13:59,236 --> 00:14:02,116 Speaker 3: pretty good about the curt because when you put that 251 00:14:02,116 --> 00:14:04,236 Speaker 3: all together, it's unstoppable, you know. 252 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:09,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was curious about the song play for today. Yeah, 253 00:14:09,556 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 2: so that's the second song on seventeen seconds, and it's 254 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:17,316 Speaker 2: a pretty substantial mood shift from the intro. Do you 255 00:14:17,316 --> 00:14:18,876 Speaker 2: remember how that song came together? 256 00:14:18,996 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 3: And I seem to remember that we had a sort 257 00:14:21,756 --> 00:14:24,916 Speaker 3: of rough version of that when Michael Dempsey was around. 258 00:14:25,156 --> 00:14:27,276 Speaker 3: But anyway, but I know for the lyric, it was 259 00:14:27,356 --> 00:14:30,436 Speaker 3: the first time that I'd felt like I could write 260 00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:35,436 Speaker 3: a lyric that was accessible to my feelings, you know, 261 00:14:35,756 --> 00:14:41,676 Speaker 3: because the previous things like Three Emery Boys and Fire 262 00:14:41,796 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 3: in Cairo and Another Day, they were they were far 263 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:49,836 Speaker 3: more impressionistic, you know, in the way that I presented things. 264 00:14:50,716 --> 00:14:53,236 Speaker 3: So that's it. That's why there's a difference, because it's 265 00:14:53,316 --> 00:14:59,036 Speaker 3: much more to the point and less flowery, I suppose 266 00:14:59,196 --> 00:15:01,196 Speaker 3: is the world And. 267 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:02,836 Speaker 2: That's a breakthrough I imagine as a writer. 268 00:15:03,716 --> 00:15:07,396 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean I don't think that at however 269 00:15:07,436 --> 00:15:11,836 Speaker 3: old I was then twenty that I even thought about that. 270 00:15:11,876 --> 00:15:14,676 Speaker 3: I didn't. I just sort of instinctively felt, oh, well, 271 00:15:14,716 --> 00:15:17,796 Speaker 3: this this is a better kind of thing, This is 272 00:15:17,836 --> 00:15:21,236 Speaker 3: a better this is more what I want to say. 273 00:15:21,676 --> 00:15:23,276 Speaker 3: It's just the only way I knew how to deal 274 00:15:23,356 --> 00:15:28,276 Speaker 3: with it, you know, write it down so Robert liked it, 275 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:30,556 Speaker 3: and so off if it went you know. 276 00:15:30,916 --> 00:15:33,236 Speaker 2: So is that like you, you wrote the entire lyrics, 277 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:35,796 Speaker 2: gave it to him and then he interpreted it. 278 00:15:36,476 --> 00:15:40,876 Speaker 3: As gave him sort of like the basis for it all, 279 00:15:41,076 --> 00:15:44,396 Speaker 3: and probably chopped and changed a few things around, because 280 00:15:44,436 --> 00:15:48,396 Speaker 3: you know, people forget, you know, like songs are not 281 00:15:49,356 --> 00:15:52,796 Speaker 3: it's not poetry writing and it's not pros it's this 282 00:15:52,956 --> 00:15:57,756 Speaker 3: weird hybrid in between lyrics and lyrics A lot of 283 00:15:57,756 --> 00:16:00,796 Speaker 3: the time work better if they're on a matter pig 284 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:05,276 Speaker 3: and some lyrics work better sometimes if they're not quite 285 00:16:05,396 --> 00:16:08,876 Speaker 3: grammatically correct or or you know, certain words, certain words 286 00:16:08,876 --> 00:16:11,276 Speaker 3: you just can't sing or you could try. But you know, 287 00:16:12,716 --> 00:16:15,836 Speaker 3: so that decision was always left, you know, obviously to 288 00:16:15,876 --> 00:16:17,596 Speaker 3: the singer. So that's how that worked. 289 00:16:17,636 --> 00:16:21,996 Speaker 2: Really, I imagine you must find it interesting to see 290 00:16:21,996 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 2: what songs resonate with a really wide audience after you 291 00:16:26,036 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 2: release album. And do you have these theories why a 292 00:16:29,836 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 2: forest caught on the way it did. 293 00:16:32,596 --> 00:16:37,596 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like audiences don't buy and large. I mean, 294 00:16:37,596 --> 00:16:40,836 Speaker 3: obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Audiences are not 295 00:16:40,996 --> 00:16:46,956 Speaker 3: looking at you thinking or listening to you thinking, oh, 296 00:16:47,076 --> 00:16:49,716 Speaker 3: that was good the way they played that, or that 297 00:16:49,836 --> 00:16:52,876 Speaker 3: was good, the way that's put together. That it's much 298 00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:56,356 Speaker 3: more visceral than that, you know. They it's like it's 299 00:16:56,396 --> 00:17:00,516 Speaker 3: like it's like drums, right, Most people other than drummers 300 00:17:00,756 --> 00:17:04,196 Speaker 3: don't really notice what's going on with the drummer. But 301 00:17:04,316 --> 00:17:07,956 Speaker 3: if something's wrong, if something goes bad, they might not 302 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 3: even know what it is. But oh no, something's not right, 303 00:17:11,876 --> 00:17:14,276 Speaker 3: something's off. It doesn't feel right, and they don't know 304 00:17:14,316 --> 00:17:18,316 Speaker 3: what it is. So the point where it works for 305 00:17:18,356 --> 00:17:25,596 Speaker 3: an audience is when they understand completely that it's you 306 00:17:25,996 --> 00:17:29,916 Speaker 3: and your expression. Right. It's not to do with how 307 00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:33,476 Speaker 3: well you play or how bad you play. No, it's 308 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:39,116 Speaker 3: it's a terribly overused word lately, but it's authenticity, you know, 309 00:17:39,236 --> 00:17:40,316 Speaker 3: and that's what they feel. 310 00:17:40,836 --> 00:17:43,476 Speaker 2: Do you remember why you decided to bring the drums 311 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:45,596 Speaker 2: in when you did? In a forest? 312 00:17:46,716 --> 00:17:48,716 Speaker 3: You know, we'd we had liked to a lot of 313 00:17:48,796 --> 00:17:51,476 Speaker 3: like the early sort of crowd rock bands, you know, 314 00:17:51,676 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 3: Can and NOI, And like what I always liked about 315 00:17:55,676 --> 00:17:59,236 Speaker 3: them was was things feel like they're going forward with 316 00:17:59,316 --> 00:18:02,476 Speaker 3: that motoric beat, but they also seem to stay in 317 00:18:02,516 --> 00:18:05,436 Speaker 3: the same place as well. You know, it's like it's 318 00:18:05,436 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 3: static but it's but it's moving, you know, and act 319 00:18:09,276 --> 00:18:12,076 Speaker 3: seemed like the thing that we really wanted to express 320 00:18:12,116 --> 00:18:16,396 Speaker 3: with the drums. So Mike Hedges was instrumental in getting 321 00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:18,276 Speaker 3: that sound. You know. He used a lot of different 322 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:20,956 Speaker 3: techniques which we'd never seen before, and I don't think 323 00:18:20,996 --> 00:18:23,156 Speaker 3: a lot of people used him at the time even so, 324 00:18:23,796 --> 00:18:25,956 Speaker 3: and he was young like us as well, you know, 325 00:18:26,036 --> 00:18:29,476 Speaker 3: so we had open minds about what you do. You know, 326 00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:31,516 Speaker 3: he wasn't stuck with like, oh no, this is how 327 00:18:31,556 --> 00:18:34,756 Speaker 3: you recall drums, you can't do anything anything else. We 328 00:18:34,756 --> 00:18:36,916 Speaker 3: we were open to doing it a different way. I 329 00:18:36,956 --> 00:18:39,236 Speaker 3: think also, like somebody said to me the other night, 330 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:44,276 Speaker 3: it's you know, the lyric. I thought the title, Robert 331 00:18:44,276 --> 00:18:46,756 Speaker 3: did the lyric, but the actual lyric, if you think 332 00:18:46,756 --> 00:18:50,596 Speaker 3: about it, is the sort of encapsulation of everything goth 333 00:18:50,676 --> 00:18:53,796 Speaker 3: and romantic. If you think about it, it's like there's 334 00:18:53,876 --> 00:18:56,996 Speaker 3: this sense of mystery, there's this sense of you know, 335 00:18:57,236 --> 00:18:59,396 Speaker 3: loss at the same time, and it's all there in 336 00:18:59,396 --> 00:19:03,236 Speaker 3: one very succinct lyric. So I think that's what we 337 00:19:03,956 --> 00:19:05,116 Speaker 3: respond to. You know. 338 00:19:05,596 --> 00:19:10,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, you described your drumming style on album. Is you 339 00:19:10,676 --> 00:19:13,196 Speaker 2: play monotonous half Man, half Machine? 340 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's Jackie Levi from Can that's his quote. 341 00:19:17,956 --> 00:19:21,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, I thought that it was a drum 342 00:19:21,556 --> 00:19:26,596 Speaker 2: machine to Yeah, that seems sort of like it would 343 00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:28,836 Speaker 2: be hard to keep up, especially playing live. 344 00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:33,756 Speaker 3: Yes, very hard, But you know the thing is, it's 345 00:19:33,876 --> 00:19:37,476 Speaker 3: it's like practicing. People think sometimes they watch drummers who 346 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:39,596 Speaker 3: are very flammby and they think, oh, that must be 347 00:19:39,716 --> 00:19:42,716 Speaker 3: very hard, and sometimes it is, but most of the 348 00:19:42,796 --> 00:19:46,916 Speaker 3: time that's a bit like a sort of a sideshow trick. 349 00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:49,836 Speaker 3: You know. It's like I once sort of thing with 350 00:19:49,876 --> 00:19:53,076 Speaker 3: Ginger Baker and he said, you know, people think I'm 351 00:19:53,076 --> 00:19:55,676 Speaker 3: playing things really fast, but what I'm doing is I'm 352 00:19:55,676 --> 00:20:00,756 Speaker 3: playing lots of quite simple things but on different limbs, 353 00:20:00,756 --> 00:20:03,996 Speaker 3: slightly shifted from each other, and it gives the impression 354 00:20:04,036 --> 00:20:07,316 Speaker 3: of going really fast. And you know, I know that's 355 00:20:07,436 --> 00:20:10,036 Speaker 3: very difficult to do because you you've got to think 356 00:20:10,036 --> 00:20:14,716 Speaker 3: about everything all at the same time. But in terms 357 00:20:14,796 --> 00:20:19,956 Speaker 3: of physicality, you know, it sounds faster than your body 358 00:20:20,036 --> 00:20:22,276 Speaker 3: is actually kind of doing. It's hard to explain, but 359 00:20:22,316 --> 00:20:25,196 Speaker 3: it kind of it sounds like that in drumming. I 360 00:20:25,196 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 3: always tell people. If you're doing it right, you could 361 00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:33,436 Speaker 3: play for hours and you'll just feel elevated. You know, 362 00:20:33,476 --> 00:20:35,836 Speaker 3: you can walk off stage three or four hours and 363 00:20:35,876 --> 00:20:39,276 Speaker 3: you'll feel fine. If you're doing it wrong, it's like 364 00:20:39,396 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 3: running the worst marathon. If you're like and you know 365 00:20:42,356 --> 00:20:45,436 Speaker 3: at the end you're like, you can't sit up. It's 366 00:20:45,476 --> 00:20:48,956 Speaker 3: really like dancing. You know, you just have to remember, okay, 367 00:20:48,996 --> 00:20:51,236 Speaker 3: well that wasn't right, but it has to move to 368 00:20:51,316 --> 00:20:53,836 Speaker 3: here now that has been there, and as long as 369 00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:58,156 Speaker 3: you can get in that, yeah, you'll be fine. You know. 370 00:20:58,276 --> 00:21:01,356 Speaker 3: But that's the trick. The trick is to learn how 371 00:21:01,396 --> 00:21:03,956 Speaker 3: to do that. It's like, you know, I watched guitarists 372 00:21:03,996 --> 00:21:07,236 Speaker 3: a lot, and I think to myself, how do they 373 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:10,956 Speaker 3: know just instinctively their fingers are going, They're not looking, 374 00:21:11,196 --> 00:21:13,596 Speaker 3: and it's but it's just that, you know, you have to. 375 00:21:13,716 --> 00:21:17,396 Speaker 3: It's like Malcolm Gladwell in his book out Outlet as 376 00:21:17,396 --> 00:21:20,876 Speaker 3: he said, you know, some people think it's a bit dismissive, 377 00:21:20,876 --> 00:21:22,156 Speaker 3: but I don't think it is said, like, you know, 378 00:21:22,196 --> 00:21:24,476 Speaker 3: the difference between being good and being great is like 379 00:21:24,596 --> 00:21:28,036 Speaker 3: ten thousand hours of practice. He's got a point, you know, 380 00:21:28,076 --> 00:21:29,916 Speaker 3: because if I think about it, at the beginning when 381 00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:32,236 Speaker 3: we started to kill. We spent the first three years 382 00:21:32,356 --> 00:21:35,556 Speaker 3: at Robert's house just playing like three times a week. 383 00:21:35,596 --> 00:21:37,316 Speaker 3: It was more of a social thing. We just meet 384 00:21:37,356 --> 00:21:39,956 Speaker 3: their you know, play, go down the park, come back, 385 00:21:39,996 --> 00:21:42,236 Speaker 3: play a bit more. But that's where we got a 386 00:21:42,316 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 3: ten thousand hours. 387 00:21:43,556 --> 00:21:47,556 Speaker 2: You know, before we move on from seventeen seconds. Is 388 00:21:47,556 --> 00:21:50,716 Speaker 2: there any other stories you want to share anything from 389 00:21:50,756 --> 00:21:53,436 Speaker 2: that period overall? That's important to know. 390 00:21:54,156 --> 00:21:56,036 Speaker 3: I don't know. I think I think more than anything, 391 00:21:56,516 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 3: like saying in goth it was for me, but I think, 392 00:22:00,916 --> 00:22:03,516 Speaker 3: you know, I think I can say it for everybody else. 393 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:07,356 Speaker 3: It was it was a discovery of our own ethos. Really, 394 00:22:07,636 --> 00:22:09,836 Speaker 3: you know, it was a discovery of who we really 395 00:22:09,876 --> 00:22:12,396 Speaker 3: were and that we could be who we really were 396 00:22:12,516 --> 00:22:15,876 Speaker 3: and do something with it, you know, whereas before we 397 00:22:15,956 --> 00:22:18,476 Speaker 3: felt a bit more constrained. That's really why when I 398 00:22:19,116 --> 00:22:21,996 Speaker 3: talked about it, when Robert, you know, it's a bit 399 00:22:22,036 --> 00:22:24,476 Speaker 3: dismissive of the first album, it's because you know, it 400 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:28,476 Speaker 3: wasn't wholly our involvement. It was like, yes, it was us, 401 00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:31,636 Speaker 3: but it was us put through this filter of you know, 402 00:22:32,116 --> 00:22:37,236 Speaker 3: a different different things, mainly through the manager. So yeah, 403 00:22:37,276 --> 00:22:40,076 Speaker 3: and he had just signed like the Jam, you know, 404 00:22:40,276 --> 00:22:43,396 Speaker 3: to PolyGram, so he was like that was in his mind, 405 00:22:43,436 --> 00:22:45,796 Speaker 3: I'm going to do another version of this three piece 406 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:47,876 Speaker 3: band and it's going to be a pop band. And 407 00:22:48,556 --> 00:22:53,076 Speaker 3: yeah it's kind of different. But you know, I think 408 00:22:53,156 --> 00:22:55,956 Speaker 3: the other good thing is it was a time where 409 00:22:56,276 --> 00:22:59,756 Speaker 3: there was you know, I don't discount the fact of 410 00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:02,036 Speaker 3: being in the right place at the right time either. 411 00:23:02,356 --> 00:23:07,356 Speaker 3: You know, there there was much more of an openness 412 00:23:07,436 --> 00:23:11,516 Speaker 3: to to letting things it evolved, rather than like, Okay, 413 00:23:11,516 --> 00:23:14,036 Speaker 3: we've got to do that this year and then work 414 00:23:14,116 --> 00:23:16,356 Speaker 3: then we have to try something completely different. You know, 415 00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:19,516 Speaker 3: there was there was more time to do things. I 416 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:21,316 Speaker 3: feel we. 417 00:23:21,276 --> 00:23:22,996 Speaker 1: Have to pause for a quick break and then we'll 418 00:23:23,036 --> 00:23:25,716 Speaker 1: come back with more from Lea Rose than Lowl Tallhurst. 419 00:23:30,116 --> 00:23:33,756 Speaker 1: We're back with more from Lea Rose and low Tollhurst. 420 00:23:34,196 --> 00:23:36,716 Speaker 2: Speaking of evolution, when you were going into Faith the 421 00:23:36,756 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 2: next album, Yeah, what was the thought on how the 422 00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:41,636 Speaker 2: sound would build or change? 423 00:23:42,836 --> 00:23:45,516 Speaker 3: I think for Faith, we wanted it to be you know, 424 00:23:45,556 --> 00:23:48,396 Speaker 3: at first, it just we wanted it to sound a 425 00:23:48,436 --> 00:23:51,636 Speaker 3: bit more well like. It ended up sounding a bit 426 00:23:51,796 --> 00:23:55,636 Speaker 3: a bit more not dramatic, but a bit more glacial. 427 00:23:55,756 --> 00:23:59,676 Speaker 3: I suppose really, And it didn't really do that at first. 428 00:23:59,796 --> 00:24:01,596 Speaker 3: You know, we'd have some sessions and it was like, 429 00:24:03,276 --> 00:24:04,796 Speaker 3: you know, we've been on the road a lot. And 430 00:24:04,836 --> 00:24:07,316 Speaker 3: that was the problem for a lot of bands, you know, 431 00:24:07,436 --> 00:24:09,516 Speaker 3: like you have a successful album and then you have 432 00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:12,196 Speaker 3: a successful second album. Then you're on the road ever 433 00:24:12,236 --> 00:24:15,716 Speaker 3: and ever, and then you're committed to do another album, like, okay, 434 00:24:15,716 --> 00:24:17,636 Speaker 3: we're better do another album. Now, well, how are we 435 00:24:17,676 --> 00:24:19,116 Speaker 3: going to you know, where are we going to find 436 00:24:19,116 --> 00:24:22,276 Speaker 3: the time to do it? I don't know. People say, oh, 437 00:24:22,316 --> 00:24:26,116 Speaker 3: they write on the road. I never found the time 438 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:27,396 Speaker 3: to write on the road. 439 00:24:27,436 --> 00:24:28,876 Speaker 2: You know, you're probably exhausted. 440 00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:33,396 Speaker 3: Well, you know, road time is a whole different world, right, 441 00:24:33,476 --> 00:24:35,956 Speaker 3: you know, like people would say to me, oh, I'll 442 00:24:35,956 --> 00:24:38,116 Speaker 3: call you next Wednesday, and I'd say, yeah, I'm going 443 00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:40,516 Speaker 3: to be on the road then. So it may happen 444 00:24:40,636 --> 00:24:44,596 Speaker 3: or it may not. You can't really organize that that 445 00:24:45,036 --> 00:24:47,916 Speaker 3: kind of thing. So, if you know, for Faith, Faith 446 00:24:48,076 --> 00:24:51,436 Speaker 3: started off being a bit rushed, and then some things happened. 447 00:24:51,436 --> 00:24:53,556 Speaker 3: You know, my mother got very sick and it was 448 00:24:53,996 --> 00:24:57,956 Speaker 3: she was going to pass away. Robert's grandmother as well, 449 00:24:58,276 --> 00:25:01,756 Speaker 3: and so that focused on our mind a bit more on 450 00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:04,196 Speaker 3: what ended up to be the main sort of topic 451 00:25:04,196 --> 00:25:05,756 Speaker 3: about it, you know, and you have to think that 452 00:25:07,236 --> 00:25:09,956 Speaker 3: me and Robert and my I don't see but you know, 453 00:25:09,996 --> 00:25:12,076 Speaker 3: by that time he wasn't there. Me and Robert grew 454 00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:16,116 Speaker 3: up Catholic, you know, which is kind of a different 455 00:25:16,116 --> 00:25:19,636 Speaker 3: proposition in England because you have to remember that Henry 456 00:25:19,716 --> 00:25:22,516 Speaker 3: D eighth dissolved all the churches because you know, the 457 00:25:22,516 --> 00:25:25,476 Speaker 3: Pope wouldn't let him get divorced for his sixth wife 458 00:25:25,596 --> 00:25:28,196 Speaker 3: or whatever. So he decided, well, I'll come out, I'll 459 00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:30,356 Speaker 3: just form my own church, you know, which sounds kind 460 00:25:30,396 --> 00:25:32,556 Speaker 3: of familiar about things that are happening, you know, in 461 00:25:32,596 --> 00:25:36,436 Speaker 3: the world now. But anyway, that's what he did. So consequently, 462 00:25:36,476 --> 00:25:40,116 Speaker 3: all the Catholic churches in England was sort of taken 463 00:25:40,196 --> 00:25:44,596 Speaker 3: over at that point, and it was it was sidelined, 464 00:25:44,716 --> 00:25:48,636 Speaker 3: really Catholicism in England. So one of the reasons that 465 00:25:48,676 --> 00:25:52,036 Speaker 3: the cure even started was, you know, I met Robert 466 00:25:52,156 --> 00:25:54,676 Speaker 3: at school, but I didn't go to school in the 467 00:25:54,676 --> 00:25:56,556 Speaker 3: town I grew up in because I had to go 468 00:25:56,676 --> 00:25:58,836 Speaker 3: to the next town because I wasn't a Catholic school 469 00:25:58,876 --> 00:26:00,836 Speaker 3: in the town I grew up in. So, you know, 470 00:26:00,956 --> 00:26:02,796 Speaker 3: I kind of knew Robert because he used to live 471 00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:06,396 Speaker 3: next door to my grandmother at first, but then him 472 00:26:06,396 --> 00:26:10,396 Speaker 3: and his dad and his family moved like one town on, 473 00:26:10,956 --> 00:26:14,156 Speaker 3: so I went to the same school, and that's how, 474 00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:17,476 Speaker 3: you know, we started everything. But you know, I think, 475 00:26:17,516 --> 00:26:19,676 Speaker 3: like I'm saying, God, not only did I feel an 476 00:26:19,716 --> 00:26:24,596 Speaker 3: outsider because of the things I was thinking about and 477 00:26:24,636 --> 00:26:27,356 Speaker 3: the way, you know, I think most teens feel a 478 00:26:27,396 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 3: little outside of stuff, it was exacerbated by the fact 479 00:26:30,636 --> 00:26:33,916 Speaker 3: that I was already an outside and to most English people, 480 00:26:33,996 --> 00:26:37,196 Speaker 3: you know, because I didn't go to Church of England 481 00:26:37,236 --> 00:26:41,116 Speaker 3: in the town. You know, So in summer vacation from school, 482 00:26:42,196 --> 00:26:44,516 Speaker 3: you know, when I was fourteen, I didn't know any 483 00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:46,876 Speaker 3: of the kids in my town because I didn't go 484 00:26:46,916 --> 00:26:50,076 Speaker 3: to school with them, and I wasn't old enough to drive, 485 00:26:50,156 --> 00:26:52,196 Speaker 3: and I wasn't old enough to really take you know, 486 00:26:52,276 --> 00:26:56,196 Speaker 3: the public transport myself and get around and stuff, and 487 00:26:56,276 --> 00:26:58,436 Speaker 3: it was too far to ride on my bicycle. So 488 00:26:58,476 --> 00:27:02,316 Speaker 3: I'm stuck in my town for the whole summer with nobody. 489 00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:07,316 Speaker 3: The library was my friend because in England back then, 490 00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:09,716 Speaker 3: you had you got one ticket for the and you 491 00:27:09,716 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 3: could take three things out on that ticket. Well, I 492 00:27:11,996 --> 00:27:15,636 Speaker 3: had somehow I for enabled three tickets, so I I 493 00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:18,756 Speaker 3: got nine items every week, you know, and I would 494 00:27:18,916 --> 00:27:21,196 Speaker 3: get like a bunch of books. And they also did 495 00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:25,116 Speaker 3: records records, so I got records and I listened to 496 00:27:25,156 --> 00:27:26,956 Speaker 3: every I didn't care what record it was. I just 497 00:27:26,996 --> 00:27:29,756 Speaker 3: take an X three records and ex three records. I 498 00:27:29,876 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 3: just listened to everything that summer while reading. So summer 499 00:27:34,196 --> 00:27:38,316 Speaker 3: vacation in English schools at the time was nearly three months. 500 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:40,596 Speaker 3: You know. It was like, you know, that's really what 501 00:27:40,716 --> 00:27:43,196 Speaker 3: started me on the whole road to everything because I 502 00:27:43,196 --> 00:27:48,076 Speaker 3: had this intensive self imposed course because I had nothing 503 00:27:48,116 --> 00:27:48,676 Speaker 3: else to do. 504 00:27:48,956 --> 00:27:51,716 Speaker 2: You know, I remember you talking about and cured that 505 00:27:51,996 --> 00:27:55,396 Speaker 2: early on you and Robert bonded over Jimmy Hendricks record 506 00:27:56,076 --> 00:27:58,476 Speaker 2: I both heard. So was he the first person that 507 00:27:58,476 --> 00:28:00,876 Speaker 2: you were really able to talk about music too? 508 00:28:01,716 --> 00:28:06,196 Speaker 3: Absolutely? I mean, you know, the good thing like a 509 00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:09,716 Speaker 3: middle school, which I think in England was like from 510 00:28:09,756 --> 00:28:13,596 Speaker 3: eleven till thirteen, right, so it was a little experimental 511 00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:15,596 Speaker 3: instead of instead of keeping like you know, go to 512 00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 3: one class and then the bell rings and you go 513 00:28:17,716 --> 00:28:20,116 Speaker 3: to the next class, they had to thing. Okay, well, 514 00:28:20,276 --> 00:28:22,676 Speaker 3: you know certain guys, certain pupils. If you were at 515 00:28:22,756 --> 00:28:25,956 Speaker 3: the top end of the class or whatever, you could 516 00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:29,836 Speaker 3: go and do your own project in the library, which 517 00:28:29,876 --> 00:28:35,596 Speaker 3: would be you know, sort of compilation of history, geography, English, 518 00:28:36,036 --> 00:28:39,836 Speaker 3: and of course religion because it's a Catholic school so 519 00:28:40,436 --> 00:28:42,156 Speaker 3: draw all those things together. We did the project, so 520 00:28:42,236 --> 00:28:45,276 Speaker 3: me and Robert were in that and a few other people. 521 00:28:45,276 --> 00:28:47,716 Speaker 3: I think Michael Dempsey was in it as well, and 522 00:28:47,796 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 3: you know, we'd sit in the library and we'd do 523 00:28:49,236 --> 00:28:51,396 Speaker 3: our work, but we'd also talk about stuff. And he 524 00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:55,036 Speaker 3: was the first person I knew other than myself that 525 00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:57,916 Speaker 3: had heard that record. So so I'm like, oh, you 526 00:28:58,116 --> 00:29:01,316 Speaker 3: like Hendrix, right, So yeah, so we we sort of 527 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:05,556 Speaker 3: bonded over that, you know, and then then I was like, yeah, 528 00:29:06,116 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 3: go back with some forward swapping records, back with some forwards, 529 00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:12,316 Speaker 3: and just ideas from that. So that's really how that's 530 00:29:12,356 --> 00:29:15,196 Speaker 3: how most bands start. I mean, I talked to a 531 00:29:15,236 --> 00:29:18,916 Speaker 3: friend of mine, James Murphy from LCD sound System, and 532 00:29:18,916 --> 00:29:22,796 Speaker 3: he said to me, when you start playing music, you'd 533 00:29:23,076 --> 00:29:25,396 Speaker 3: try to make songs like the people you like. You know, 534 00:29:25,516 --> 00:29:27,036 Speaker 3: like you like them. You're trying to make a song 535 00:29:27,196 --> 00:29:30,236 Speaker 3: like that. And the way you get it wrong, because 536 00:29:30,276 --> 00:29:32,316 Speaker 3: you'll always get it wrong because you don't have the 537 00:29:32,356 --> 00:29:35,796 Speaker 3: same technique or the same influences or even the same 538 00:29:36,356 --> 00:29:39,196 Speaker 3: understanding of how to play it. The way you get 539 00:29:39,236 --> 00:29:42,676 Speaker 3: it wrong is what becomes your sound. You know. That's 540 00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:45,836 Speaker 3: kind of how the Cure started. We would do songs 541 00:29:45,836 --> 00:29:48,036 Speaker 3: that were like in the beginning, we did these like 542 00:29:48,156 --> 00:29:51,796 Speaker 3: triptich songs, which were like ten minutes long, three different 543 00:29:51,836 --> 00:29:56,276 Speaker 3: sort of intervals of stuff, and they were like really 544 00:29:56,316 --> 00:29:59,556 Speaker 3: bad versions of stuff that we listened to. There was 545 00:29:59,756 --> 00:30:03,436 Speaker 3: some like psychedelic stuff in there, and then bands like 546 00:30:03,476 --> 00:30:06,436 Speaker 3: the Buzzcocks came along. There was some stuff that was 547 00:30:06,476 --> 00:30:10,156 Speaker 3: a bit more, a bit simpler and things, but there 548 00:30:10,196 --> 00:30:12,476 Speaker 3: was all kinds of things that we sort of threw 549 00:30:12,556 --> 00:30:16,716 Speaker 3: in and that's really what influenced us. And we would 550 00:30:16,756 --> 00:30:19,356 Speaker 3: write these songs. And then I think the change came 551 00:30:19,396 --> 00:30:21,596 Speaker 3: when we thought about doing something like Boys Don't Cry. 552 00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:24,836 Speaker 3: We're like, well, we can't do these minute epics anymore. 553 00:30:24,876 --> 00:30:27,236 Speaker 3: We're going to do like try and write a three 554 00:30:27,236 --> 00:30:29,876 Speaker 3: minute pop song, you know, And that's where it all 555 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:33,276 Speaker 3: came from. But obviously the basis of that is informed 556 00:30:33,316 --> 00:30:35,196 Speaker 3: from the earlier stuff, and I think some of that 557 00:30:35,276 --> 00:30:38,836 Speaker 3: stuff made it onto. I think we did a compilation 558 00:30:39,116 --> 00:30:41,236 Speaker 3: Joined the Dots and something. I think some of that's 559 00:30:41,276 --> 00:30:44,396 Speaker 3: on there, like like in rough form, you know, and 560 00:30:44,396 --> 00:30:47,716 Speaker 3: they're quite embarrassing really listening to them. Now. Yeah, it's 561 00:30:47,756 --> 00:30:50,596 Speaker 3: sort of like I think Winter, I think that's on there. 562 00:30:50,236 --> 00:30:53,916 Speaker 3: That we did a whole seasons sections as well. You know, 563 00:30:54,876 --> 00:30:57,916 Speaker 3: here's an interesting story. At one point. You know, it's 564 00:30:57,956 --> 00:31:00,356 Speaker 3: a small town on the outskirts of the big. 565 00:31:00,196 --> 00:31:01,276 Speaker 2: City, Crawley. 566 00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:05,156 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, it's like being in Los Angeles 567 00:31:05,156 --> 00:31:06,916 Speaker 3: and living in the valley. There was only one other 568 00:31:06,996 --> 00:31:12,436 Speaker 3: band in town, which was fronted by Neil Gaiman, the writer, right, 569 00:31:12,956 --> 00:31:15,796 Speaker 3: and I remember, you know, he would have costume changes, 570 00:31:15,956 --> 00:31:17,596 Speaker 3: like we're playing in the pub, but he would have 571 00:31:17,596 --> 00:31:21,156 Speaker 3: costume changes and things. It was very exotic for the time. 572 00:31:21,636 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 3: I read something recently where he said, you know, I 573 00:31:24,636 --> 00:31:27,756 Speaker 3: decided to become a writer instead because you know, the 574 00:31:27,796 --> 00:31:31,036 Speaker 3: only other band in our town was The Cure, you know, 575 00:31:31,156 --> 00:31:35,116 Speaker 3: so we just stopped, you know. But he obviously went 576 00:31:35,156 --> 00:31:38,956 Speaker 3: on to do something really really good, you know, but yeah, wonderful, 577 00:31:39,036 --> 00:31:42,516 Speaker 3: you know, and he found his own creative force. But 578 00:31:42,556 --> 00:31:45,636 Speaker 3: the whole thing about it was was that, you know, 579 00:31:45,756 --> 00:31:48,076 Speaker 3: you take that stuff and it becomes your own right, 580 00:31:48,676 --> 00:31:52,476 Speaker 3: your own sound, you know, and then you for us, 581 00:31:52,556 --> 00:31:56,036 Speaker 3: especially because we weren't in London, we were able to 582 00:31:56,116 --> 00:31:59,396 Speaker 3: sort of, you know, mature on our own without too 583 00:31:59,436 --> 00:32:01,356 Speaker 3: many outside things coming in. You know. 584 00:32:02,156 --> 00:32:05,316 Speaker 2: Yeah. I was watching when The Cure was inducted into 585 00:32:05,316 --> 00:32:07,516 Speaker 2: the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Trent Reznor 586 00:32:07,636 --> 00:32:12,436 Speaker 2: said that you're your style is instantly recognizable and it's 587 00:32:12,556 --> 00:32:17,276 Speaker 2: very sonically distinct. And I just wonder, like you're saying that, 588 00:32:17,316 --> 00:32:19,316 Speaker 2: you try other things and then you settle on a 589 00:32:19,356 --> 00:32:22,036 Speaker 2: sound and it just sort of comes to be. But 590 00:32:22,116 --> 00:32:24,196 Speaker 2: it's really incredible if you think about it. 591 00:32:24,996 --> 00:32:28,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have two ideas about that. You know, when 592 00:32:28,836 --> 00:32:31,236 Speaker 3: we were doing asked to do the Hall of Fame. 593 00:32:31,276 --> 00:32:34,516 Speaker 3: At first, you know, Robert wasn't too keen about it. 594 00:32:34,596 --> 00:32:36,756 Speaker 3: It was like, wow, you know, what is it? What 595 00:32:36,956 --> 00:32:38,636 Speaker 3: is it? You know, how does it work? Is it 596 00:32:38,756 --> 00:32:41,196 Speaker 3: some kind of you know, it doesn't seem like it 597 00:32:41,196 --> 00:32:45,676 Speaker 3: would be appropriate. And I said, no, you're wrong. I said, 598 00:32:45,716 --> 00:32:48,156 Speaker 3: because I've lived here by that time, i'd lived here 599 00:32:48,196 --> 00:32:49,956 Speaker 3: a culture of a century. And I said, you know 600 00:32:50,436 --> 00:32:53,476 Speaker 3: all the you know, the goth kids that lived in 601 00:32:53,516 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 3: a little town in the middle of nowhere. I said, 602 00:32:56,276 --> 00:32:58,116 Speaker 3: they would love it for us to be on there, 603 00:32:58,156 --> 00:33:00,996 Speaker 3: I said, because it would be vacation for them. You know. 604 00:33:01,036 --> 00:33:03,196 Speaker 3: They would go, Okay, look see I was, I was, 605 00:33:03,436 --> 00:33:06,796 Speaker 3: I was right about them. They did something good and 606 00:33:07,956 --> 00:33:10,156 Speaker 3: eventually I sort of won him over and we did 607 00:33:10,196 --> 00:33:12,756 Speaker 3: it and it worked. But the best thing for me was, 608 00:33:13,196 --> 00:33:14,876 Speaker 3: you know, they said, well, who would you like to 609 00:33:14,916 --> 00:33:18,356 Speaker 3: induct you? And we were thinking about what do ask Trent, 610 00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:21,476 Speaker 3: because you know, he comes from that line in the 611 00:33:21,556 --> 00:33:24,716 Speaker 3: way and understand it, and so he said yeah. And 612 00:33:24,796 --> 00:33:26,316 Speaker 3: when he got up there, he said. The first thing 613 00:33:26,316 --> 00:33:28,476 Speaker 3: he said was, you know, I grew up in small 614 00:33:28,516 --> 00:33:33,636 Speaker 3: town USA, you know, Mercer, Pennsylvania, looking out over cornfields, 615 00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:37,196 Speaker 3: you know, and this music coming through college radio was 616 00:33:37,236 --> 00:33:39,996 Speaker 3: the way I escaped, you know. And I looked to Robert, 617 00:33:39,996 --> 00:33:43,036 Speaker 3: I was like, yet, see, look that's what I'm talking about, 618 00:33:43,156 --> 00:33:45,716 Speaker 3: you know. And so that's why when I got up 619 00:33:45,756 --> 00:33:49,236 Speaker 3: on stage, gave a big hug, you know, because it's like, 620 00:33:49,876 --> 00:33:52,596 Speaker 3: that's that's the truth. You know. Even today, you know, 621 00:33:52,876 --> 00:33:56,556 Speaker 3: I spent forty years going around America. I can walk 622 00:33:56,596 --> 00:33:59,436 Speaker 3: into any small town in the States and I can 623 00:33:59,516 --> 00:34:02,156 Speaker 3: spot the five or six kids who are going to 624 00:34:02,196 --> 00:34:04,756 Speaker 3: be goth straight away, you know, like if I walk 625 00:34:04,836 --> 00:34:07,396 Speaker 3: into the cafe or something, I go, yeah, then what. 626 00:34:07,356 --> 00:34:08,916 Speaker 2: Do you see? What do you what do you see 627 00:34:08,916 --> 00:34:10,996 Speaker 2: in you say, it's. 628 00:34:10,836 --> 00:34:13,436 Speaker 3: A way of being, And you know they're usually reading 629 00:34:13,436 --> 00:34:16,556 Speaker 3: a book or something, so they're not looking at their 630 00:34:16,596 --> 00:34:19,436 Speaker 3: bones all the time. You know, I can see them. 631 00:34:19,476 --> 00:34:21,996 Speaker 3: They don't have to, you know, they don't look goth. 632 00:34:22,076 --> 00:34:24,876 Speaker 3: And that's why it pains to explain that in the book. 633 00:34:24,916 --> 00:34:27,916 Speaker 3: Goth's not just you know, the way you look and 634 00:34:27,916 --> 00:34:29,796 Speaker 3: the way your hair is and stuff. And it always 635 00:34:29,796 --> 00:34:33,076 Speaker 3: amuses me as well if I'm passing through those places 636 00:34:33,196 --> 00:34:36,596 Speaker 3: something and I do see some real goths, you know 637 00:34:36,716 --> 00:34:39,276 Speaker 3: that look have got like now they've got the whole, 638 00:34:39,756 --> 00:34:42,276 Speaker 3: you know, kids and kaboodle, as they say, they put everything, 639 00:34:42,756 --> 00:34:45,756 Speaker 3: and they've got the uniform. And if I walk past 640 00:34:45,796 --> 00:34:48,156 Speaker 3: them and they don't recognize me, that always gives me 641 00:34:48,196 --> 00:34:51,316 Speaker 3: a little chuckle, you know, because you don't know, but 642 00:34:51,556 --> 00:34:56,476 Speaker 3: you know, here's where it came from. And so, you know, 643 00:34:56,716 --> 00:34:59,996 Speaker 3: which is a nice thing for me. But the thing 644 00:35:00,076 --> 00:35:02,796 Speaker 3: for the cures sound like a few years ago, I 645 00:35:02,796 --> 00:35:05,236 Speaker 3: was looking at like when Google Earth came out and 646 00:35:05,276 --> 00:35:07,796 Speaker 3: you could go and walk around down the streets. I'm 647 00:35:07,796 --> 00:35:09,476 Speaker 3: sure I did what a lot of people did. I 648 00:35:09,476 --> 00:35:11,276 Speaker 3: went and walked around where I grew up, you know, 649 00:35:12,356 --> 00:35:14,476 Speaker 3: and that amazed me as well. Yeah, I called her 650 00:35:14,676 --> 00:35:16,556 Speaker 3: up and said or wrote to him or something. I said, 651 00:35:16,876 --> 00:35:20,116 Speaker 3: you know, it is no surprise to me at all 652 00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:24,076 Speaker 3: now on forty years later, looking at this stuff. The 653 00:35:24,116 --> 00:35:27,156 Speaker 3: reason we sounded the way we did because it's all 654 00:35:27,196 --> 00:35:30,556 Speaker 3: there in the in the dark, dank countryside, in the 655 00:35:30,596 --> 00:35:33,636 Speaker 3: streets of the town we grew up, and it's. 656 00:35:34,276 --> 00:35:36,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, you described the sleek, gray skies, and I was 657 00:35:36,596 --> 00:35:39,836 Speaker 2: going to ask you what environmental factors, How does that 658 00:35:39,836 --> 00:35:42,236 Speaker 2: seep into the music or what influence does that have 659 00:35:43,076 --> 00:35:44,996 Speaker 2: on a sound, on a band sound. 660 00:35:44,836 --> 00:35:50,036 Speaker 3: But that always makes things very soft focus. I had 661 00:35:50,396 --> 00:35:53,916 Speaker 3: on my recent trip to London for goth I got 662 00:35:53,916 --> 00:35:56,236 Speaker 3: off the plane and they had a card to pick 663 00:35:56,276 --> 00:35:59,236 Speaker 3: me up, take me into town, which is about an 664 00:35:59,236 --> 00:36:04,596 Speaker 3: hour's drive, and we're driving through the streets and it's 665 00:36:04,756 --> 00:36:09,076 Speaker 3: like it's really gray. It's about five in the afternoon, 666 00:36:09,276 --> 00:36:12,636 Speaker 3: really gray, and it starts to rain, and it's that 667 00:36:12,916 --> 00:36:16,156 Speaker 3: sort of London rain that goes sideways and stuff, you know, 668 00:36:16,236 --> 00:36:19,356 Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, okay, yeah, this is where 669 00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:20,076 Speaker 3: it comes from. 670 00:36:20,596 --> 00:36:23,276 Speaker 2: In both of the books, you talked about how you 671 00:36:23,356 --> 00:36:26,996 Speaker 2: and Robert's home lives were so very different, and he 672 00:36:27,036 --> 00:36:29,756 Speaker 2: came up in a happy, well to do home with 673 00:36:29,956 --> 00:36:34,196 Speaker 2: very supportive parents who let the band practice early on, 674 00:36:35,516 --> 00:36:39,636 Speaker 2: and your house was completely different. It was more disjointed, 675 00:36:39,756 --> 00:36:45,156 Speaker 2: it was glum, Your dad was emotionally vacant. And you 676 00:36:45,196 --> 00:36:48,676 Speaker 2: said that a lot of Robert's writing you thought was 677 00:36:48,716 --> 00:36:53,476 Speaker 2: a combination of everyone in the band's, the early band's experiences. 678 00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:59,716 Speaker 3: I think at that point in time, because we weren't cosmopolitan, 679 00:36:59,836 --> 00:37:02,916 Speaker 3: we hadn't been around the world, we hadn't seen different places, 680 00:37:02,956 --> 00:37:06,236 Speaker 3: you know, things become very focused. I always think it's 681 00:37:06,316 --> 00:37:08,636 Speaker 3: like looking through the other end of the telescope, you know, 682 00:37:08,676 --> 00:37:11,516 Speaker 3: instead of look like what everything gets out there, you 683 00:37:11,636 --> 00:37:15,836 Speaker 3: become micro focused on what's in front of you, which 684 00:37:15,876 --> 00:37:19,156 Speaker 3: is good and bad. Obviously, you know, if if that's 685 00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:23,396 Speaker 3: your whole life, that becomes kind of sad, you know, 686 00:37:23,516 --> 00:37:26,356 Speaker 3: because you don't you don't have any experience outside of it, 687 00:37:26,396 --> 00:37:29,236 Speaker 3: you know. But I think, you know, initially we wanted 688 00:37:29,276 --> 00:37:33,116 Speaker 3: to consider all kinds of things but when you're younger, 689 00:37:33,676 --> 00:37:36,876 Speaker 3: you don't really know what that is until things happened 690 00:37:36,916 --> 00:37:39,356 Speaker 3: to you like that. You know, so that's great. Until 691 00:37:39,396 --> 00:37:41,956 Speaker 3: something like that had happened to us, it is such 692 00:37:41,996 --> 00:37:44,636 Speaker 3: an abstract concept, you know, like, oh, well, what's it 693 00:37:44,676 --> 00:37:48,036 Speaker 3: going to be like if this person is never there again? 694 00:37:48,196 --> 00:37:48,396 Speaker 3: You know? 695 00:37:48,436 --> 00:37:52,436 Speaker 2: They so during faith you had actually experienced death, when 696 00:37:52,476 --> 00:37:54,436 Speaker 2: before it was more of a romantic idea. 697 00:37:54,956 --> 00:37:57,956 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and it's completely different. And I mean, you know, 698 00:37:58,436 --> 00:38:02,196 Speaker 3: as you get older, obviously more of that stuff happens 699 00:38:02,236 --> 00:38:07,076 Speaker 3: to you, and so it becomes I think that's why. 700 00:38:07,316 --> 00:38:10,156 Speaker 3: Also a lot of people have met recently who are 701 00:38:10,196 --> 00:38:13,836 Speaker 3: probably my age and that and still would label themselves, 702 00:38:13,916 --> 00:38:16,756 Speaker 3: you know, goth or whatever. They would say to me 703 00:38:16,876 --> 00:38:21,596 Speaker 3: that for them it was a comfort to know that 704 00:38:21,676 --> 00:38:25,996 Speaker 3: they understand, you know, more about those things, because a 705 00:38:26,036 --> 00:38:29,876 Speaker 3: lot of people's first reaction to having somebody, you know, 706 00:38:29,916 --> 00:38:33,116 Speaker 3: that they know close to them who's has somebody that's 707 00:38:33,156 --> 00:38:36,636 Speaker 3: passed away is in a sort of embarrassment. They don't 708 00:38:36,636 --> 00:38:39,556 Speaker 3: want to talk about it, you know, if they don't 709 00:38:39,556 --> 00:38:41,996 Speaker 3: know them that well, they're like, oh well, I'll just 710 00:38:42,076 --> 00:38:44,676 Speaker 3: mention this once and then let's carry on, you know. 711 00:38:44,796 --> 00:38:47,716 Speaker 3: With life, which I suppose is kind of natural, you know, 712 00:38:47,796 --> 00:38:51,516 Speaker 3: because hey, you know, I died tomorrow. The world goes on, 713 00:38:52,116 --> 00:38:55,516 Speaker 3: you know, and it's always go on, but you kind 714 00:38:55,516 --> 00:38:58,876 Speaker 3: of don't know what to say. And I think we 715 00:38:58,876 --> 00:39:01,116 Speaker 3: were just looking for ways to say things a lot 716 00:39:01,156 --> 00:39:07,276 Speaker 3: of the time, and now much more relevant and poignant. 717 00:39:07,316 --> 00:39:09,756 Speaker 2: I think you also said that a lot of songs 718 00:39:09,796 --> 00:39:13,276 Speaker 2: people it's sort of a misinterpretation that the Cure's music 719 00:39:13,316 --> 00:39:17,516 Speaker 2: can be destructive or depressing. Yeah, but that's a false notion, 720 00:39:17,636 --> 00:39:20,916 Speaker 2: and a lot of times, you know, people find solace 721 00:39:21,116 --> 00:39:25,076 Speaker 2: in the songs and they find them comforting. And you wrote, 722 00:39:25,076 --> 00:39:29,156 Speaker 2: we're not the problem or the cure, right, right. 723 00:39:29,036 --> 00:39:31,236 Speaker 3: And I thought, you know, that's that's the obvious thing 724 00:39:31,276 --> 00:39:35,676 Speaker 3: to say, but you know, which you know is a 725 00:39:35,716 --> 00:39:38,716 Speaker 3: little hokey, but it's kind of fun to say. Yeah. 726 00:39:38,836 --> 00:39:41,116 Speaker 3: That would always upset me, well, not upset me, but 727 00:39:41,196 --> 00:39:43,916 Speaker 3: I was irritated by the fact people would go, you know, 728 00:39:43,956 --> 00:39:47,076 Speaker 3: if your music's dark and depressing, then it's going to 729 00:39:47,156 --> 00:39:50,156 Speaker 3: make people dark and depressed, and then they go, you know, 730 00:39:50,316 --> 00:39:53,436 Speaker 3: maybe something bad will happen. You should write something that's 731 00:39:54,036 --> 00:39:58,196 Speaker 3: uplifting and happy and jolly and kind of like, no, 732 00:39:58,516 --> 00:40:02,916 Speaker 3: that's you've missed the point entirely. People that listen to us, 733 00:40:03,076 --> 00:40:04,636 Speaker 3: a lot of them would come to say to me, 734 00:40:04,876 --> 00:40:08,756 Speaker 3: you know, hey, this happened. It was bad, and I 735 00:40:08,796 --> 00:40:11,396 Speaker 3: had a friend with your music, you know, I had 736 00:40:11,436 --> 00:40:16,276 Speaker 3: somebody I felt there was understanding, so it made it less. 737 00:40:16,316 --> 00:40:18,636 Speaker 3: It was like, you know, problem shared is a problem hard. 738 00:40:18,756 --> 00:40:21,556 Speaker 3: So that was really the basis for it. And to 739 00:40:21,676 --> 00:40:25,036 Speaker 3: me especially, I don't I can't speak for anybody else, 740 00:40:25,076 --> 00:40:28,756 Speaker 3: but for me especially, that was that was my greatest 741 00:40:29,156 --> 00:40:31,956 Speaker 3: reward in lots of ways that it would help somebody, 742 00:40:32,116 --> 00:40:35,276 Speaker 3: you know, because I know how I felt doing those things, 743 00:40:35,436 --> 00:40:37,916 Speaker 3: and it was good to be able to put that 744 00:40:37,996 --> 00:40:42,916 Speaker 3: into music so that people could associate it and use it. 745 00:40:43,756 --> 00:40:46,316 Speaker 3: Somebody told me recently, you know, the job of a 746 00:40:46,396 --> 00:40:49,916 Speaker 3: musician is discovery, but it's also I think I could 747 00:40:49,916 --> 00:40:53,716 Speaker 3: go further that it's not just discovery. It to bring 748 00:40:53,756 --> 00:40:58,556 Speaker 3: back whatever you find for people. Because I don't know 749 00:40:58,596 --> 00:41:00,756 Speaker 3: about you, but that's why I listened to music and 750 00:41:00,916 --> 00:41:03,836 Speaker 3: like certain things. That's why I read certain things because 751 00:41:03,836 --> 00:41:09,756 Speaker 3: I get I get a confirmation of my own. Yeah, 752 00:41:09,796 --> 00:41:13,556 Speaker 3: a language really is an imperfect construct, you know, Like 753 00:41:13,836 --> 00:41:18,156 Speaker 3: we're talking now, and I hope that what I construct 754 00:41:18,196 --> 00:41:20,996 Speaker 3: in front of you gives you the ideas of what 755 00:41:21,036 --> 00:41:25,516 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about and vice versa. But we're never quite sure, 756 00:41:25,596 --> 00:41:29,676 Speaker 3: you know. And sometimes it amazes me that people, like 757 00:41:30,636 --> 00:41:33,276 Speaker 3: I was saying with the Cures lyrics, you know, people 758 00:41:33,316 --> 00:41:36,876 Speaker 3: get completely the opposite feeling. You know. Sometimes I will 759 00:41:36,916 --> 00:41:42,076 Speaker 3: go into you know, they have those sites as websites online, 760 00:41:42,516 --> 00:41:45,956 Speaker 3: you know, like Genius Lyrics or something, and I read 761 00:41:45,956 --> 00:41:49,956 Speaker 3: people's interpretations of our lyrics and some are good, some 762 00:41:49,956 --> 00:41:55,476 Speaker 3: some are off, and some are kind of frightening. But 763 00:41:55,476 --> 00:41:58,316 Speaker 3: but you know, everybody has somewhere, you know. 764 00:41:59,996 --> 00:42:01,836 Speaker 1: We have to take another quick break and then we'll 765 00:42:01,836 --> 00:42:05,116 Speaker 1: be back with more from Leo Rose's interview with Lowell Tollhurst. 766 00:42:09,396 --> 00:42:13,596 Speaker 1: We're back with the rest of Leah's conversation with Lowel Tollhurst. 767 00:42:13,596 --> 00:42:17,796 Speaker 2: With Pornography, which is the fourth album. Yeah, so on 768 00:42:17,796 --> 00:42:20,116 Speaker 2: this one, you said the band really started to fully 769 00:42:20,156 --> 00:42:24,916 Speaker 2: embrace bleaker themes in the songs. Yea, What was going 770 00:42:24,956 --> 00:42:30,036 Speaker 2: on in the band interpersonally when that album was recorded. 771 00:42:31,076 --> 00:42:35,116 Speaker 3: You know, my good friend Julia and Reagan from All 772 00:42:35,156 --> 00:42:37,836 Speaker 3: About Eve said it very well. You know, we were 773 00:42:37,876 --> 00:42:40,036 Speaker 3: talking about it and she said. You know, it's it's 774 00:42:40,196 --> 00:42:46,156 Speaker 3: really unnatural idea of a band, you know, because you 775 00:42:46,276 --> 00:42:49,276 Speaker 3: spend like, you put young people together for a lot 776 00:42:49,316 --> 00:42:53,156 Speaker 3: of time, like twenty four to seven for months on end, 777 00:42:53,356 --> 00:42:57,396 Speaker 3: you know, traveling around all the time, working together, and 778 00:42:57,436 --> 00:43:00,276 Speaker 3: then spending all their off time together because you're you know, 779 00:43:00,316 --> 00:43:02,996 Speaker 3: you're halfway across the world and you've got no other choice, 780 00:43:03,356 --> 00:43:07,276 Speaker 3: and you know, you mix alcohol and any other things 781 00:43:07,276 --> 00:43:10,556 Speaker 3: in with that, and it's a recipe for disaster, you know. 782 00:43:10,836 --> 00:43:14,076 Speaker 3: And yeah, the cure were no different. You know, we 783 00:43:14,156 --> 00:43:17,076 Speaker 3: had spent a lot of time together. By the time 784 00:43:17,076 --> 00:43:21,036 Speaker 3: we got to Pornography, you know that the usual suspects 785 00:43:21,036 --> 00:43:26,876 Speaker 3: were there floating around. And to me, I said this 786 00:43:26,956 --> 00:43:31,036 Speaker 3: to budget the other week. The thing that's amazing to 787 00:43:31,076 --> 00:43:35,476 Speaker 3: me is that as people making that record, I don't 788 00:43:35,516 --> 00:43:39,516 Speaker 3: think we were very sane. I think there was a 789 00:43:39,516 --> 00:43:42,556 Speaker 3: lot of insanity. You know if I look back at 790 00:43:42,636 --> 00:43:48,916 Speaker 3: the events, and it's interesting. You know, we recorded mostly 791 00:43:48,956 --> 00:43:50,916 Speaker 3: at night. Then by that time, you know, we'd been 792 00:43:51,516 --> 00:43:54,716 Speaker 3: on this sort of nocturnal clock. Yeah that suits Robert 793 00:43:54,796 --> 00:43:57,796 Speaker 3: Roberts always been a nocturnal kind of person. You know. 794 00:43:57,876 --> 00:44:00,716 Speaker 3: We would finish a lot of sessions at Rack Studios, 795 00:44:00,716 --> 00:44:03,796 Speaker 3: which had several studios and different people recording in there, 796 00:44:04,276 --> 00:44:08,156 Speaker 3: and we would finish sessions at you know, the early 797 00:44:08,236 --> 00:44:12,116 Speaker 3: hours and them all or a bit later. And some days, 798 00:44:12,156 --> 00:44:15,276 Speaker 3: you know, we'd be leaving the studio as the day 799 00:44:15,916 --> 00:44:17,676 Speaker 3: staff and people were coming in. 800 00:44:17,836 --> 00:44:19,236 Speaker 2: You know that's a weird feeling. 801 00:44:19,916 --> 00:44:22,996 Speaker 3: Oh yes, oh yeah, very weird. You know, like we 802 00:44:23,196 --> 00:44:25,716 Speaker 3: weren't staying far away so we didn't have to get 803 00:44:25,796 --> 00:44:29,756 Speaker 3: too much in the sunlight and watch everybody around with freshness. 804 00:44:29,996 --> 00:44:31,836 Speaker 2: It really makes you feel like an outsider when you're 805 00:44:31,876 --> 00:44:34,236 Speaker 2: not part of that early morning hustle and bustle people 806 00:44:34,276 --> 00:44:35,036 Speaker 2: are going to work. 807 00:44:35,516 --> 00:44:37,916 Speaker 3: Yeah, we just we just wanted to get get home 808 00:44:37,956 --> 00:44:40,796 Speaker 3: and go to bed. And you know, I remember meet 809 00:44:40,956 --> 00:44:44,396 Speaker 3: meeting Kim Wild. She was recording in the other studio 810 00:44:44,436 --> 00:44:48,556 Speaker 3: and she came in one morning, you know, and I 811 00:44:48,596 --> 00:44:50,556 Speaker 3: stopped her to talk to her. She must have thought, 812 00:44:50,636 --> 00:44:53,596 Speaker 3: you know, it's like, how can I get away from 813 00:44:53,596 --> 00:44:58,516 Speaker 3: this mad person, you know, as as possible. And actually, 814 00:44:58,556 --> 00:45:00,556 Speaker 3: if I meet her again ever, I'm going to tell 815 00:45:00,556 --> 00:45:02,076 Speaker 3: her that I'm going to say I'm sorry. You know, 816 00:45:02,196 --> 00:45:04,956 Speaker 3: it was, it was It must have been very scary, 817 00:45:05,396 --> 00:45:08,556 Speaker 3: you know, because I'm sure I was talking nonsense and 818 00:45:09,196 --> 00:45:16,076 Speaker 3: you know, completely insane. But what surprises me for for 819 00:45:16,236 --> 00:45:18,916 Speaker 3: us is like as far as we were like that, 820 00:45:19,476 --> 00:45:26,476 Speaker 3: the music became ultra precise and played like with a 821 00:45:26,636 --> 00:45:30,396 Speaker 3: with an intensity and a precision that we had never 822 00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:33,796 Speaker 3: got before, you know, And that surprises me because like 823 00:45:33,876 --> 00:45:35,436 Speaker 3: also I tell people, you know, if you're in a 824 00:45:35,436 --> 00:45:38,916 Speaker 3: three piece band, you've got nowhere to hide, you know, 825 00:45:38,956 --> 00:45:42,636 Speaker 3: because if one of you's a mistake, everybody notices that. 826 00:45:42,716 --> 00:45:45,956 Speaker 3: You've got to be very sharp. And that was probably 827 00:45:46,556 --> 00:45:49,996 Speaker 3: the sharpest as musicians we ever were. We were we 828 00:45:49,996 --> 00:45:53,716 Speaker 3: were very very good at it, but you know, the 829 00:45:53,996 --> 00:45:55,636 Speaker 3: rest of the stuff that went along with it was 830 00:45:55,676 --> 00:45:58,356 Speaker 3: too intense. And so then we went on the tour. 831 00:45:59,516 --> 00:46:01,956 Speaker 3: Something was going to break, you know, and I did. 832 00:46:02,076 --> 00:46:05,676 Speaker 3: In Strasburg, you know, there was we went out to 833 00:46:05,716 --> 00:46:08,356 Speaker 3: some club and Robert and Simon had this big fight 834 00:46:08,516 --> 00:46:10,916 Speaker 3: and they both got on a plane that night and 835 00:46:10,956 --> 00:46:13,716 Speaker 3: went home. I woke up and there's just me and 836 00:46:13,836 --> 00:46:17,036 Speaker 3: the and the opening band in the in the hotel, 837 00:46:17,516 --> 00:46:21,796 Speaker 3: and I knew in my heart of hearts at that 838 00:46:21,876 --> 00:46:24,396 Speaker 3: point that was going to stop for a while. Then, 839 00:46:24,756 --> 00:46:26,516 Speaker 3: in fact, I thought it was probably going to be 840 00:46:26,636 --> 00:46:31,316 Speaker 3: the end of everything. And Robert came back and Simon 841 00:46:31,356 --> 00:46:33,596 Speaker 3: came back, and we finished the sort of finished our 842 00:46:33,876 --> 00:46:36,876 Speaker 3: obligations and went home, and I thought, well that's that, 843 00:46:37,116 --> 00:46:41,236 Speaker 3: you know, And it wasn't. But it was a time 844 00:46:41,276 --> 00:46:43,796 Speaker 3: for a very big change, you know. Yeah, you know, 845 00:46:43,956 --> 00:46:46,276 Speaker 3: Simon left and it became just me and Robert for 846 00:46:46,316 --> 00:46:52,396 Speaker 3: a while, and we made rather different music, very. 847 00:46:51,756 --> 00:46:54,636 Speaker 2: Very different music. Yeah, that's right. There was another period. 848 00:46:54,676 --> 00:46:58,156 Speaker 2: I was watching a Cure documentary and I believe it 849 00:46:58,236 --> 00:47:02,076 Speaker 2: was your first major tour when you were opening up 850 00:47:02,076 --> 00:47:05,476 Speaker 2: for Susie and the Bandshees, and then Robert eventually joined 851 00:47:05,476 --> 00:47:08,196 Speaker 2: the band as a guitarist. And was that another point 852 00:47:08,236 --> 00:47:10,756 Speaker 2: where it's seemed like maybe the band would break up? 853 00:47:11,476 --> 00:47:15,316 Speaker 3: You know? I always knew, because I think I said 854 00:47:15,316 --> 00:47:16,996 Speaker 3: in Kurd, I always knew in my heart of hearts, 855 00:47:17,036 --> 00:47:19,196 Speaker 3: that Robert wasn't going to stay with the Banshees forever 856 00:47:19,356 --> 00:47:24,236 Speaker 3: because just being you know, the side guy, the guitarist 857 00:47:24,996 --> 00:47:27,076 Speaker 3: was never going to be enough for him. You know, 858 00:47:27,236 --> 00:47:29,596 Speaker 3: he had his own ideas, his own stuff he wanted 859 00:47:29,636 --> 00:47:33,236 Speaker 3: to do. But I also think that at that point, 860 00:47:33,316 --> 00:47:36,356 Speaker 3: you know, him and Michael weren't getting on so well. 861 00:47:36,436 --> 00:47:39,076 Speaker 3: So it was a nice It was a relief for 862 00:47:39,196 --> 00:47:42,396 Speaker 3: him to go there and spend some time with them, 863 00:47:42,476 --> 00:47:44,916 Speaker 3: do that in a different way, and I was open 864 00:47:44,996 --> 00:47:47,396 Speaker 3: to that. I didn't have that in my head that said, 865 00:47:47,436 --> 00:47:50,356 Speaker 3: oh no, you have to stay. I didn't feel that 866 00:47:51,396 --> 00:47:53,636 Speaker 3: it would hurt things. I thought it would add to stuff. 867 00:47:53,676 --> 00:47:55,636 Speaker 3: I thought, well, you know, if you'll go there, he'll 868 00:47:55,636 --> 00:47:58,036 Speaker 3: find out a different way of doing things and he 869 00:47:58,076 --> 00:47:59,676 Speaker 3: could bring that back to us. So that was what 870 00:47:59,716 --> 00:48:01,596 Speaker 3: I always saw, well, he'll bring that back to us, 871 00:48:01,636 --> 00:48:05,076 Speaker 3: which he did. But I think, you know, in retrospect, 872 00:48:05,156 --> 00:48:07,996 Speaker 3: there's always that little bit of stuff like, well, you 873 00:48:08,036 --> 00:48:10,796 Speaker 3: know this is this is what we're doing. You know 874 00:48:10,876 --> 00:48:13,236 Speaker 3: that isn't air band, so you know you have to 875 00:48:13,276 --> 00:48:15,796 Speaker 3: consider that. But it worked out. 876 00:48:16,276 --> 00:48:20,356 Speaker 2: Are there any tracks on pornography that really stand out 877 00:48:20,396 --> 00:48:23,636 Speaker 2: to you or have an especially interesting story about how 878 00:48:23,676 --> 00:48:24,676 Speaker 2: the song was created? 879 00:48:25,676 --> 00:48:27,796 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know, the first song was for 880 00:48:28,116 --> 00:48:31,996 Speaker 3: one hundred Years was the first time that we did 881 00:48:32,396 --> 00:48:34,876 Speaker 3: actually use, you know, a drum machine, because there's a 882 00:48:34,916 --> 00:48:37,596 Speaker 3: drum machine on there, and I played keyboards and that 883 00:48:37,636 --> 00:48:40,076 Speaker 3: was the first time I played keyboards on a Cure record. 884 00:48:40,196 --> 00:48:44,156 Speaker 3: So that was something different to start off with, you know, 885 00:48:44,276 --> 00:48:47,836 Speaker 3: and we had this tiny little boss drum machine, and 886 00:48:48,636 --> 00:48:50,516 Speaker 3: we had to figure out how to sort of separate 887 00:48:50,596 --> 00:48:53,036 Speaker 3: things because you can't really separate the sounds from it, 888 00:48:54,076 --> 00:48:58,516 Speaker 3: so we put things for different amps and so that, 889 00:48:58,796 --> 00:49:03,156 Speaker 3: you know. But for live we used to take a 890 00:49:03,236 --> 00:49:05,516 Speaker 3: real to real tape recorder with the drum machine on 891 00:49:05,756 --> 00:49:08,876 Speaker 3: for some reason. But it worked, so I like that. 892 00:49:09,516 --> 00:49:13,276 Speaker 3: And then Cold is probably my favorite start to any 893 00:49:13,316 --> 00:49:17,556 Speaker 3: cure song because you know, I had set the kit 894 00:49:17,716 --> 00:49:19,796 Speaker 3: up in this huge room so that gives it this 895 00:49:19,876 --> 00:49:23,876 Speaker 3: big sound. And I had bought this big Chinese symbols 896 00:49:23,956 --> 00:49:27,436 Speaker 3: from a store in London, ray Man's, which is like 897 00:49:27,836 --> 00:49:31,716 Speaker 3: all sort of exotic instruments. And you have to remember 898 00:49:31,716 --> 00:49:33,876 Speaker 3: the symbols when they were first made, like you know, 899 00:49:33,996 --> 00:49:37,276 Speaker 3: four hundred years ago, and were instruments of war. They 900 00:49:37,356 --> 00:49:39,476 Speaker 3: were what they used to march across the top of 901 00:49:39,516 --> 00:49:43,236 Speaker 3: the hills and frighten the hell out of their enemies, right. So, 902 00:49:43,796 --> 00:49:47,116 Speaker 3: but some of the original ones are so loud, you know, 903 00:49:47,316 --> 00:49:49,316 Speaker 3: I'm sure it's part of my hearing loss, you know, 904 00:49:49,356 --> 00:49:50,756 Speaker 3: because every time I've hit this thing and I have 905 00:49:50,756 --> 00:49:54,516 Speaker 3: to turn my head sideways. So I love the beginning 906 00:49:54,556 --> 00:49:57,436 Speaker 3: of Cold for that reason, and also at the end 907 00:49:57,556 --> 00:50:00,836 Speaker 3: the last the title track Pornography. We we did some 908 00:50:01,796 --> 00:50:05,316 Speaker 3: interesting manipulations. I mean, it was a fun album to 909 00:50:05,396 --> 00:50:09,836 Speaker 3: do in that respect, I say fun, you know, the 910 00:50:09,916 --> 00:50:13,156 Speaker 3: sessions were a little strange, but it was fun. Also. 911 00:50:13,236 --> 00:50:15,996 Speaker 3: You know, Phil Thornley, who produced it with us, was 912 00:50:17,236 --> 00:50:19,196 Speaker 3: younger than us. I think it was like twenty one, 913 00:50:19,316 --> 00:50:22,436 Speaker 3: which blows my mind. I talked to him occasionally now 914 00:50:22,476 --> 00:50:24,716 Speaker 3: and I say, you know, do you realize how young 915 00:50:24,756 --> 00:50:26,676 Speaker 3: we were when you did that record? You know, I 916 00:50:26,716 --> 00:50:29,836 Speaker 3: don't know how, you know, how that happened? You know, 917 00:50:29,916 --> 00:50:33,076 Speaker 3: it was. It was very, very strange. So, you know, 918 00:50:33,156 --> 00:50:35,796 Speaker 3: it's like a lot of things, a lot of things 919 00:50:35,836 --> 00:50:38,356 Speaker 3: in the qure's existence are happy accidents. 920 00:50:38,476 --> 00:50:42,156 Speaker 2: You know, at what point during your time with a 921 00:50:42,236 --> 00:50:44,316 Speaker 2: Cure did you start to see the audiences grow? 922 00:50:45,156 --> 00:50:48,796 Speaker 3: Well, they were sort of increasing as we got up 923 00:50:48,796 --> 00:50:51,756 Speaker 3: to Pornography. But with Pornography we went out on tour 924 00:50:52,276 --> 00:50:55,796 Speaker 3: and that was probably another thing that contributed to it 925 00:50:55,796 --> 00:50:57,756 Speaker 3: to it because we got put into a lot bigger 926 00:50:57,996 --> 00:51:03,476 Speaker 3: rooms to play, but the album wasn't out. Yeah, and 927 00:51:03,996 --> 00:51:06,516 Speaker 3: most of our set that we played for that too, 928 00:51:06,916 --> 00:51:11,236 Speaker 3: was the new album, so people, you know, And so 929 00:51:11,596 --> 00:51:16,196 Speaker 3: it was the first time that since we'd started that 930 00:51:16,436 --> 00:51:21,436 Speaker 3: audiences hadn't got exponentially bigger every year we played, you know, 931 00:51:22,036 --> 00:51:27,196 Speaker 3: and when you do it the first time, you don't 932 00:51:27,196 --> 00:51:29,476 Speaker 3: even understand how that works or it doesn't work. You 933 00:51:29,596 --> 00:51:33,436 Speaker 3: just accept it. It's not being nonchalant or egotistical. I 934 00:51:33,556 --> 00:51:36,036 Speaker 3: just sort of accepted, oh, well, you know, this is 935 00:51:36,036 --> 00:51:40,116 Speaker 3: what happens. Now there's bigger audience. Yeah. And then with 936 00:51:40,196 --> 00:51:45,516 Speaker 3: Pornography it started to be half full. I think that's weird. 937 00:51:45,556 --> 00:51:48,236 Speaker 3: Why is that happening? You know, And so it added 938 00:51:48,276 --> 00:51:52,036 Speaker 3: to thing. But then after that period where we'd finished 939 00:51:52,036 --> 00:51:56,036 Speaker 3: the sort of singles, you know, with love Cats and 940 00:51:56,076 --> 00:51:59,276 Speaker 3: the Walk and everything, it started to pick up again 941 00:51:59,316 --> 00:52:01,196 Speaker 3: and it started to get bigger again from there and 942 00:52:01,236 --> 00:52:04,236 Speaker 3: it's just sort of continued pretty much ever since, with 943 00:52:04,276 --> 00:52:08,076 Speaker 3: a little dip in the middle, I think for Rip Hoop, 944 00:52:08,236 --> 00:52:11,036 Speaker 3: which was like, you know, the end of everything for 945 00:52:11,076 --> 00:52:13,356 Speaker 3: a lot of people. But then you know, yeah, he 946 00:52:13,436 --> 00:52:14,916 Speaker 3: came around again, so we're fine. 947 00:52:15,996 --> 00:52:17,836 Speaker 2: Do you ever think like if you had a different 948 00:52:17,916 --> 00:52:20,476 Speaker 2: upbringing that you would have ended up in a different band, 949 00:52:20,636 --> 00:52:22,756 Speaker 2: like being Duran Duran or something. 950 00:52:26,916 --> 00:52:30,196 Speaker 3: You know that's impossible. How do we know? You know, 951 00:52:30,236 --> 00:52:33,516 Speaker 3: I have no looking glass or I can't tell you. 952 00:52:33,636 --> 00:52:36,436 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I mean I nearly ended up in 953 00:52:36,476 --> 00:52:40,356 Speaker 3: Adam and the Ants. But you know because Adam. I 954 00:52:40,396 --> 00:52:43,956 Speaker 3: met Adam one night in London and he was just 955 00:52:43,996 --> 00:52:45,836 Speaker 3: starting a new version of the band, you know, with 956 00:52:45,916 --> 00:52:49,716 Speaker 3: the two drummers and Terry Lee, and so I'm like, 957 00:52:50,636 --> 00:52:53,036 Speaker 3: he said, you know, I'm starting this new band, do 958 00:52:53,076 --> 00:52:55,396 Speaker 3: you you know, new version of the Ants. Do you 959 00:52:55,436 --> 00:52:58,596 Speaker 3: want to come along and try out? And I'm like, yeah, 960 00:52:58,796 --> 00:53:00,756 Speaker 3: it's okay. I got this band, the Cure, so I'm 961 00:53:00,796 --> 00:53:02,476 Speaker 3: going to carry on, you know, which I'm glad I did. 962 00:53:02,596 --> 00:53:04,836 Speaker 3: But you know, so I could have ended up with 963 00:53:04,876 --> 00:53:07,756 Speaker 3: the makeup and the hair. 964 00:53:07,876 --> 00:53:11,196 Speaker 2: Right right, right right? Yeah, speaking of makeup and the 965 00:53:11,236 --> 00:53:16,836 Speaker 2: funny hair, I heard that Robert's image changed drastically, started 966 00:53:16,836 --> 00:53:19,916 Speaker 2: teasing his hair, putting on lipstick after he joined the 967 00:53:19,956 --> 00:53:23,556 Speaker 2: Banshees and saw Suzie Sue. Is that accurate? 968 00:53:24,676 --> 00:53:26,796 Speaker 3: You know, it's easy to connect the dots when you 969 00:53:26,836 --> 00:53:29,396 Speaker 3: look from afar, But I don't remember happening like that 970 00:53:29,516 --> 00:53:31,876 Speaker 3: because there were a lot of people, you know, like 971 00:53:31,956 --> 00:53:33,716 Speaker 3: we would go out, we'd always go out on the 972 00:53:33,756 --> 00:53:38,276 Speaker 3: Thursday night to the Canada Palace in London, and you know, 973 00:53:38,356 --> 00:53:40,796 Speaker 3: people always said the Batcave, but I remember the Palace 974 00:53:40,836 --> 00:53:43,716 Speaker 3: has been pretty much sort of the center of the 975 00:53:43,836 --> 00:53:46,756 Speaker 3: universe at that time, and there was lots of different 976 00:53:46,756 --> 00:53:48,036 Speaker 3: people there. 977 00:53:47,636 --> 00:53:48,276 Speaker 2: With that look. 978 00:53:48,756 --> 00:53:51,596 Speaker 3: Yeah, with that look. You know, obviously we all adapt 979 00:53:51,676 --> 00:53:54,436 Speaker 3: everything you see around, you know, because this was our people. 980 00:53:54,516 --> 00:53:56,796 Speaker 3: So this is like, okay, we want to show we're 981 00:53:56,836 --> 00:54:00,676 Speaker 3: parts of this. And so it went from there. Obviously, 982 00:54:00,756 --> 00:54:05,596 Speaker 3: Sue was a very pivotable person in that scene. I 983 00:54:05,596 --> 00:54:07,636 Speaker 3: think six and one and half a dozen of the 984 00:54:07,676 --> 00:54:10,476 Speaker 3: other you know, I never never really not exactly where 985 00:54:10,516 --> 00:54:11,436 Speaker 3: it came from, you know. 986 00:54:11,436 --> 00:54:13,436 Speaker 2: So it wasn't like one day it was, you know, 987 00:54:13,556 --> 00:54:15,236 Speaker 2: one way, and then the next day it's like a 988 00:54:15,276 --> 00:54:16,316 Speaker 2: whole new Well. 989 00:54:16,436 --> 00:54:20,796 Speaker 3: No, he went through several permutations, including I said the 990 00:54:20,836 --> 00:54:24,116 Speaker 3: word permutation. He had a poem at one point, sort 991 00:54:24,156 --> 00:54:28,076 Speaker 3: of funny poem that was jagged. You know, it looks okay, 992 00:54:28,276 --> 00:54:30,396 Speaker 3: but then you know, we changed, we did something else. 993 00:54:31,276 --> 00:54:33,036 Speaker 2: I'm so glad perms are gone. 994 00:54:33,276 --> 00:54:33,916 Speaker 3: Yeah, me too. 995 00:54:34,516 --> 00:54:36,756 Speaker 2: How did it feel when you eventually left the band? 996 00:54:36,796 --> 00:54:40,436 Speaker 2: How did it feel seeing this band go on without you? 997 00:54:40,516 --> 00:54:43,236 Speaker 2: A band that you created when you were so young, 998 00:54:43,796 --> 00:54:45,836 Speaker 2: and you were in for so long and had so 999 00:54:45,916 --> 00:54:49,796 Speaker 2: many formative experiences in How did it feel to see 1000 00:54:49,796 --> 00:54:50,716 Speaker 2: it go on without you? 1001 00:54:51,716 --> 00:54:53,956 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I can't lie. It was painful in 1002 00:54:54,116 --> 00:54:57,716 Speaker 3: lots of ways in the in the beginning. Over the years, 1003 00:54:58,716 --> 00:55:01,716 Speaker 3: I've realized that there's two things. You know, the day 1004 00:55:01,756 --> 00:55:04,436 Speaker 3: I die my obituary, I know what it's going to say. 1005 00:55:04,516 --> 00:55:07,196 Speaker 3: You know, if I get one, it'll say, you know, like, yeah, 1006 00:55:07,276 --> 00:55:09,276 Speaker 3: co founder, and that's what it's going to say. That's 1007 00:55:09,276 --> 00:55:12,636 Speaker 3: going to be the headline. I can't escape that. So 1008 00:55:12,996 --> 00:55:16,756 Speaker 3: rather than trying to escape it, I'll acknowledge it and 1009 00:55:17,876 --> 00:55:20,796 Speaker 3: embrace it. So I'm very pleased with what we did. 1010 00:55:20,836 --> 00:55:23,516 Speaker 3: I'm very happy about what we did, and I'm very 1011 00:55:23,556 --> 00:55:26,236 Speaker 3: proud of what we did. You know, I still have 1012 00:55:26,276 --> 00:55:28,636 Speaker 3: a relationship with most of the people in the band, 1013 00:55:29,156 --> 00:55:32,476 Speaker 3: and there are people I've known most of my life, 1014 00:55:32,596 --> 00:55:36,116 Speaker 3: you know, so you can't not have a relationship. You know, 1015 00:55:36,196 --> 00:55:39,356 Speaker 3: it's like family, you know, at some point, Yeah, you've 1016 00:55:39,356 --> 00:55:42,156 Speaker 3: got to circle back. In fact, that's thet way to 1017 00:55:42,196 --> 00:55:46,316 Speaker 3: describe it. Family. I mean, a few weeks ago, the 1018 00:55:46,436 --> 00:55:48,836 Speaker 3: Cure were here in Los Angeles and I went to 1019 00:55:48,836 --> 00:55:52,556 Speaker 3: see everybody, and there's a couple of funny things. I 1020 00:55:52,676 --> 00:55:58,116 Speaker 3: took my niece, who's just in her last year at university, 1021 00:55:58,276 --> 00:56:01,196 Speaker 3: and you know, so she's like twenty one, and she'd 1022 00:56:01,196 --> 00:56:04,076 Speaker 3: never seen them play live before. Well she has, but 1023 00:56:04,116 --> 00:56:07,956 Speaker 3: she doesn't remember and because she's a little girl, and 1024 00:56:07,996 --> 00:56:11,116 Speaker 3: so I took her there and we were sort of 1025 00:56:11,116 --> 00:56:13,956 Speaker 3: all hanging out afterwards down in the dress room in 1026 00:56:13,996 --> 00:56:15,796 Speaker 3: the Hollywood Bowl, and it was for me, it was 1027 00:56:15,836 --> 00:56:18,476 Speaker 3: like being back in the pub in nineteen seventy seven, 1028 00:56:18,596 --> 00:56:21,236 Speaker 3: you know, because it was kind of strange because, like 1029 00:56:21,316 --> 00:56:24,156 Speaker 3: you know, I'm saying talking to Simon, we're talking about things, 1030 00:56:24,196 --> 00:56:27,156 Speaker 3: talking to Robert. Robert's wife was there. You know, she's 1031 00:56:27,276 --> 00:56:29,236 Speaker 3: very rarely on the road, so you know, I know 1032 00:56:29,356 --> 00:56:32,116 Speaker 3: her very well. So we're talking. And for me it 1033 00:56:32,196 --> 00:56:35,596 Speaker 3: was good as well, because they a lot of band members, 1034 00:56:35,636 --> 00:56:38,436 Speaker 3: you know, have children, and some of them I know 1035 00:56:38,556 --> 00:56:40,636 Speaker 3: and seen, and some of them I've never met, you know, 1036 00:56:40,676 --> 00:56:43,036 Speaker 3: so I got a chance to meet them and stuff, 1037 00:56:43,156 --> 00:56:48,036 Speaker 3: and it was very emotional, but it was also very 1038 00:56:48,676 --> 00:56:50,876 Speaker 3: healing in a good way, you know, because I get 1039 00:56:50,876 --> 00:56:53,636 Speaker 3: to realize, Okay, this is this is my family, and 1040 00:56:54,156 --> 00:56:56,676 Speaker 3: it's never going to change really, you know, things go 1041 00:56:56,796 --> 00:56:59,716 Speaker 3: up and down like most families, but it's always going 1042 00:56:59,796 --> 00:57:01,676 Speaker 3: to be there, you know. And it was a very 1043 00:57:03,316 --> 00:57:05,036 Speaker 3: bonding time and I think a lot of that's to 1044 00:57:05,036 --> 00:57:07,356 Speaker 3: do with the fact that we're all getting older and 1045 00:57:07,596 --> 00:57:10,996 Speaker 3: you know, yeah, there's not so many of us around anymore. 1046 00:57:11,116 --> 00:57:13,956 Speaker 3: Even so it's like, you know, people in the band 1047 00:57:13,956 --> 00:57:17,796 Speaker 3: have passed away, Andy passed away and stuff, so it's like, okay, 1048 00:57:18,196 --> 00:57:20,796 Speaker 3: we could we still have a lot in common. In fact, 1049 00:57:20,876 --> 00:57:22,476 Speaker 3: Roberts said that to me, he said, you know, we 1050 00:57:22,516 --> 00:57:25,476 Speaker 3: have a lot to talk about backstage the Hollywood Bols. 1051 00:57:25,516 --> 00:57:27,076 Speaker 3: Probably not the place too, but we do. We have 1052 00:57:27,116 --> 00:57:29,276 Speaker 3: a lot to talk about. And so you know, I'm 1053 00:57:29,316 --> 00:57:33,276 Speaker 3: sure things will carry on in some fashion or another, 1054 00:57:33,316 --> 00:57:34,956 Speaker 3: and that's fine by me. And I'm very happy with 1055 00:57:34,996 --> 00:57:36,196 Speaker 3: what I'm doing myself now. 1056 00:57:36,316 --> 00:57:38,316 Speaker 2: So yeah, I was going to say, it's a testament 1057 00:57:38,356 --> 00:57:42,036 Speaker 2: to you and to your personality or outlook that you're 1058 00:57:42,076 --> 00:57:46,316 Speaker 2: not just stewing in bitterness. You're moving forward. You've written 1059 00:57:46,316 --> 00:57:50,076 Speaker 2: these incredible books, you're making music, you have this wonderful 1060 00:57:50,276 --> 00:57:54,236 Speaker 2: relationship working relationship with Budgie, so you. 1061 00:57:54,196 --> 00:57:57,396 Speaker 3: Know, and that really is the only way that you're 1062 00:57:57,676 --> 00:57:59,996 Speaker 3: you're going to live through this life, you know. I 1063 00:57:59,996 --> 00:58:02,156 Speaker 3: mean that's one of the reasons I got on a 1064 00:58:02,196 --> 00:58:05,636 Speaker 3: plane and came to California because at the point where 1065 00:58:05,636 --> 00:58:08,876 Speaker 3: I came to California, my life had fallen apart. You know, 1066 00:58:09,556 --> 00:58:14,196 Speaker 3: my dad are gone, my first marriage was dissolving. You know, 1067 00:58:14,396 --> 00:58:17,036 Speaker 3: I had a lot of money to the court for 1068 00:58:17,116 --> 00:58:21,196 Speaker 3: a court sastress court case. So you know, I arrived here. 1069 00:58:21,836 --> 00:58:24,116 Speaker 3: You know, I wasn't really a stranger in a strange land. 1070 00:58:24,156 --> 00:58:26,156 Speaker 3: I kind of was, and I kind of wanted to 1071 00:58:26,196 --> 00:58:28,796 Speaker 3: be that. But I knew California a bit from you know, 1072 00:58:28,996 --> 00:58:33,076 Speaker 3: working here a lot, and I liked the place and 1073 00:58:34,076 --> 00:58:36,636 Speaker 3: what was really good for me, and I tell people 1074 00:58:36,676 --> 00:58:38,956 Speaker 3: this all the time, was you know a lot of 1075 00:58:38,996 --> 00:58:42,076 Speaker 3: people think of California, you know, and this is true 1076 00:58:42,116 --> 00:58:43,796 Speaker 3: in England. People think this as well, you know, like 1077 00:58:43,836 --> 00:58:48,196 Speaker 3: you come here to be discovered or destroyed or both. 1078 00:58:48,276 --> 00:58:50,836 Speaker 3: You know, both things can happen, you know, and sometimes 1079 00:58:50,916 --> 00:58:53,716 Speaker 3: they do it. And that wasn't my experience. My experience 1080 00:58:53,876 --> 00:58:57,756 Speaker 3: was I found love, I found acceptance, and I found 1081 00:58:57,836 --> 00:59:01,716 Speaker 3: my tribe. You know, I found people that I've been 1082 00:59:01,756 --> 00:59:04,196 Speaker 3: able to connect with and work with and do things 1083 00:59:04,236 --> 00:59:09,076 Speaker 3: over the years, and it's been much more healing experience, 1084 00:59:09,236 --> 00:59:12,596 Speaker 3: so I was ever expecting, you know, And so therefore 1085 00:59:13,556 --> 00:59:17,196 Speaker 3: it's become home and I feel a great affection for 1086 00:59:17,276 --> 00:59:20,236 Speaker 3: the place, and it's been great. And if I think 1087 00:59:20,276 --> 00:59:23,556 Speaker 3: about it, it's been like over thirty years now, so 1088 00:59:23,716 --> 00:59:28,476 Speaker 3: you know, it's like it's like I've lived two lives, 1089 00:59:28,716 --> 00:59:32,876 Speaker 3: two complete lives, you know, and you know, it's beyond 1090 00:59:32,876 --> 00:59:36,116 Speaker 3: my my, my sort of wildest expectations. 1091 00:59:36,636 --> 00:59:39,596 Speaker 2: It's incredible. Yeah, well, thank you so much, Thol for 1092 00:59:39,636 --> 00:59:42,876 Speaker 2: talking today. I really appreciate it. I loved your books. 1093 00:59:42,996 --> 00:59:46,796 Speaker 2: I highly recommend them to everybody listening, and best of 1094 00:59:46,876 --> 00:59:47,796 Speaker 2: luck with the new album. 1095 00:59:48,516 --> 00:59:51,116 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much, and we'll talk again. 1096 00:59:54,356 --> 00:59:57,156 Speaker 1: Thanks to Lord Tallhurst for sharing his experience with the Cure. 1097 00:59:57,636 --> 00:59:59,836 Speaker 1: He's written two excellent books that are out now, and 1098 00:59:59,876 --> 01:00:02,196 Speaker 1: you can hear our favorite songs from his days with 1099 01:00:02,236 --> 01:00:04,556 Speaker 1: the Cure and just solo work. I'm a playlist a 1100 01:00:04,716 --> 01:00:08,756 Speaker 1: Broken Record podcast dot com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel 1101 01:00:08,796 --> 01:00:11,756 Speaker 1: and you dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, where you 1102 01:00:11,756 --> 01:00:14,916 Speaker 1: can find all of our new episodes. You can follow 1103 01:00:14,996 --> 01:00:18,756 Speaker 1: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced 1104 01:00:18,796 --> 01:00:21,356 Speaker 1: with help from Lea Rose and Eric Sandler. Our show 1105 01:00:21,436 --> 01:00:25,196 Speaker 1: is engineered by Echo Mountain. Broken Record is a production 1106 01:00:25,276 --> 01:00:27,836 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others 1107 01:00:27,876 --> 01:00:32,036 Speaker 1: from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin and Plus. Pushkin Plus 1108 01:00:32,076 --> 01:00:35,156 Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and adfree 1109 01:00:35,156 --> 01:00:37,956 Speaker 1: listening for four to ninety nine a month. To look 1110 01:00:37,996 --> 01:00:41,756 Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you 1111 01:00:41,876 --> 01:00:44,676 Speaker 1: like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review 1112 01:00:44,756 --> 01:00:48,036 Speaker 1: us on your podcast app. A theme musics by Kenny Beats. 1113 01:00:48,436 --> 01:00:49,476 Speaker 1: I'm justin Rischmand