WEBVTT - Leading wisely, with Caroline Webb 0:00:03.020 --> 0:00:09.230 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good morning. 0:00:10.130 --> 0:00:13.909 This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 0:00:14.610 --> 0:00:17.490 Today's episode is going to be a slightly longer one, 0:00:17.870 --> 0:00:20.829 part of the series where I interview fascinating people about 0:00:20.890 --> 0:00:23.550 how they take their days from great to awesome and 0:00:23.690 --> 0:00:26.170 any advice they have for the rest of us. So 0:00:26.230 --> 0:00:29.510 today I am delighted to welcome Caroline Webb to Before Breakfast. 0:00:29.990 --> 0:00:32.810 Caroline is a leadership expert and the author of the 0:00:32.850 --> 0:00:34.890 brand new book, Leadership Intelligence. 0:00:35.190 --> 0:00:36.570 Caroline, welcome to the show. 0:00:37.190 --> 0:00:38.810 It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:40.920 Yeah, thanks for joining us. Why don't you tell our 0:00:40.979 --> 0:00:42.320 listeners a little bit about yourself? 0:00:43.220 --> 0:00:45.360 Well, I'm an executive coach. 0:00:45.780 --> 0:00:49.839 I focus on helping leaders use insights from behavioral and 0:00:49.860 --> 0:00:52.590 cognitive science and apply them in very, very practical ways 0:00:52.990 --> 0:00:56.310 to improve the way that they lead, work, and live. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:00:59.760 And where are you coming at us from in the world? 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.020 I'm coming from New York, despite my accent. 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.300 Wanted people to check, you know. So Caroline is based 0:01:06.420 --> 0:01:06.980 in New York. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.280 And Caroline, you know, there's a lot of management and 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.060 leadership books in the world. What are you aiming to 0:01:13.100 --> 0:01:14.800 do differently with leadership intelligence? 0:01:15.819 --> 0:01:19.170 Well, I've been working with leaders and managers at all 0:01:19.190 --> 0:01:21.319 levels in organizations for over 25 years now. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:23.740 And I've always used. 0:01:23.590 --> 0:01:26.580 An approach that's been grounded in cognitive and behavioral science, 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.140 because I've seen time and again how when people have 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.300 a bit of an understanding of the human mind, it's 0:01:32.340 --> 0:01:33.840 a lot easier to make the most of the human 0:01:33.860 --> 0:01:36.600 talent around you and in your own talent as well. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:41.460 So I really wanted to put that intel, if you like, 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.130 into the hands of as many leaders as possible. And 0:01:45.190 --> 0:01:48.520 that's what leadership intelligence is. It's come out of you know, 0:01:48.540 --> 0:01:51.410 several decades of work and seeing what works and what 0:01:51.450 --> 0:01:55.350 helps and capturing that in as systemic a way as possible. 0:01:56.130 --> 0:01:56.330 Yeah. 0:01:56.390 --> 0:02:00.780 And the book is built around something like 21 scenarios 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:04.120 that a leader will commonly face in his or her career. 0:02:04.140 --> 0:02:06.560 I wanted to talk about just a few of. 0:02:06.540 --> 0:02:11.180 Those in the time we have today. So First, one 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.430 of the challenges that many leaders face is making time 0:02:14.500 --> 0:02:18.030 for their top priorities. People who are listening to a 0:02:18.070 --> 0:02:19.750 time management show are well. 0:02:19.610 --> 0:02:20.210 Aware of this. 0:02:20.250 --> 0:02:24.489 But why is it so difficult for leaders to make 0:02:24.550 --> 0:02:25.389 time for their priorities? 0:02:25.430 --> 0:02:26.290 I mean, they're in charge. 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:27.090 Yeah. 0:02:27.380 --> 0:02:30.180 And arguably, you'd say, well, you've got control of your 0:02:30.220 --> 0:02:33.690 calendar if you're in charge, right? But the reality is that, 0:02:33.750 --> 0:02:39.710 you know, if you're productive, committed, professional, you know, you've 0:02:39.750 --> 0:02:42.370 got a lot that's coming your way and it's really 0:02:42.430 --> 0:02:45.650 hard to say no. You feel that you want to 0:02:45.669 --> 0:02:48.350 do a good job for everybody and you learn those 0:02:48.370 --> 0:02:50.820 habits early in your career. And then as you advance, 0:02:51.620 --> 0:02:53.760 you've got to change the way you're using your time. 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.239 And a lot of the time we don't. We get 0:02:56.260 --> 0:02:59.900 stuck in old patterns and we don't rethink, well, hold on, 0:03:00.060 --> 0:03:02.510 what is it that I'm uniquely placed to do now 0:03:02.550 --> 0:03:06.010 that I am perhaps managing other people formally or informally? 0:03:06.570 --> 0:03:09.670 And so that re-evaluation of where do I really add 0:03:09.710 --> 0:03:12.510 value and how do I then create a calendar that 0:03:12.590 --> 0:03:15.790 matches that and lets go of a bunch of stuff 0:03:15.810 --> 0:03:17.810 that perhaps you used to do, but you need to 0:03:17.850 --> 0:03:23.320 now re-evaluate. or perhaps even drop completely, that's a rethink. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.660 And as we all know, an identity shift takes some effort, 0:03:27.860 --> 0:03:30.220 and it's a deep thing to go through as a person. 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:32.850 Yeah, well, especially a lot of people have been promoted 0:03:32.910 --> 0:03:35.810 because they are good at fixing things, but then they 0:03:35.870 --> 0:03:38.250 may no longer be the person who needs to dive 0:03:38.350 --> 0:03:41.510 in and fix the deck, for instance, right before the 0:03:41.550 --> 0:03:44.880 meeting's coming up. So you have something called the yes system, 0:03:45.430 --> 0:03:47.710 I want to make sure I get this right. The yes, grow, 0:03:47.890 --> 0:03:50.670 no method for people who are dealing with this challenge. 0:03:50.690 --> 0:03:51.750 Can you describe what that is? 0:03:52.620 --> 0:03:53.310 Thank you. Yes. 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.100 So the yes, grow, no method is, first of all, 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.520 getting extremely clear on what you need to say yes to. 0:04:00.260 --> 0:04:04.560 And that positive yes is all about knowing where your 0:04:04.580 --> 0:04:07.320 value add is. So what is it that you're uniquely 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.470 responsible for? Is it lifting yourself up and seeing the 0:04:10.490 --> 0:04:11.030 big picture? 0:04:11.570 --> 0:04:12.030 Probably. 0:04:12.050 --> 0:04:16.160 Is it engaging and motivating your team? 0:04:16.660 --> 0:04:19.000 Probably. There may be some other things that really are 0:04:19.339 --> 0:04:21.919 only you. And I find a. 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.020 Lot of people are not super clear in their minds 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.960 about what it is that only they can do. And 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.729 that's what the first part of the model is about. 0:04:29.750 --> 0:04:33.550 It's the positive yes. And then let go and grow 0:04:33.790 --> 0:04:36.690 is the second bit, which is, okay, well, what could 0:04:36.730 --> 0:04:40.469 someone else do even if not as well as you. 0:04:41.410 --> 0:04:44.050 And that's the tricky bit because, yeah, I mean, your 0:04:44.089 --> 0:04:46.690 team isn't as experienced as you, so maybe they won't 0:04:46.750 --> 0:04:48.510 do it as well as you. But if you don't 0:04:48.570 --> 0:04:51.430 let go of the things they could do pretty well, 0:04:52.070 --> 0:04:53.990 then you're not going to have time to do the 0:04:54.029 --> 0:04:57.870 things that only you can do. And then the rest 0:04:57.910 --> 0:04:59.850 of it, I mean, there are things you simply have 0:04:59.890 --> 0:05:00.370 to decline. 0:05:00.410 --> 0:05:02.010 You can't delegate. 0:05:02.029 --> 0:05:04.050 You can't let go and grow and use it as 0:05:04.089 --> 0:05:07.550 a growth opportunity for your people. That's where the positive 0:05:07.589 --> 0:05:09.820 no comes in. And that's a way of saying no 0:05:09.900 --> 0:05:11.490 that preserves relationships. 0:05:12.310 --> 0:05:14.370 So what is an example of a positive no? Like 0:05:14.410 --> 0:05:17.310 if you were turning me down for something, Caroline, what 0:05:17.350 --> 0:05:17.930 might you say? 0:05:18.570 --> 0:05:21.030 Well, the trick with a positive no is to lead 0:05:21.050 --> 0:05:22.690 with what you're saying yes to rather than what you're 0:05:22.710 --> 0:05:24.810 saying no to. Because I think, you know, when we 0:05:25.010 --> 0:05:28.310 are needing to decline or pull out of something we've 0:05:28.330 --> 0:05:31.060 already committed to, of course, we don't feel good about that. 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:35.820 And we're very focused on our angst about letting someone 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.710 down or feeling that we're letting someone down. And so 0:05:38.850 --> 0:05:42.010 we often lead with, I'm so sorry. And I'm not 0:05:42.070 --> 0:05:44.170 saying that sorry is wrong. It's absolutely the right thing 0:05:44.190 --> 0:05:46.430 to say, but it should come lower down in the conversation. 0:05:47.210 --> 0:05:51.070 If you lead with, first of all, some positive appreciation 0:05:51.250 --> 0:05:53.330 of what the other person is asking you, we often 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.339 skip that when we're stressed about saying no. Say, that's 0:05:57.380 --> 0:06:01.020 a really great project that you're working on, Laura. I 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:03.539 really appreciate that you thought of me for it. It's 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.970 a small thing, but you start with that. Then you 0:06:06.450 --> 0:06:09.549 go with your yes, which is right now I'm working 0:06:09.650 --> 0:06:13.360 on a big new book that's on leadership and it's 0:06:13.380 --> 0:06:15.539 a life's work and it's called Leadership Intelligence. 0:06:15.820 --> 0:06:20.700 And it's wonderful, but it's very stretching. There's your no. Finally, 0:06:20.740 --> 0:06:21.230 you get to it. 0:06:21.260 --> 0:06:23.700 So I'm really sorry, but I have to decline what 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:27.029 I would otherwise love to do. And then you do 0:06:27.070 --> 0:06:30.750 a warm close. And that's also something we sometimes forget 0:06:30.770 --> 0:06:32.130 to do, which is I wish you all the very 0:06:32.170 --> 0:06:34.730 best for the project. I'm, you know, sure it's going 0:06:34.750 --> 0:06:38.089 to be a terrific success. And if you follow that structure, 0:06:38.110 --> 0:06:42.280 and I've been using this now, gosh, 15 years, over 0:06:42.300 --> 0:06:45.240 a decade, I can vouch for the fact that it 0:06:45.460 --> 0:06:48.780 really helps you preserve the relationship. And it also actually 0:06:48.820 --> 0:06:51.020 reminds you of what you're saying yes to, which is 0:06:51.060 --> 0:06:51.550 no bad thing. 0:06:52.110 --> 0:06:55.310 Yeah. And part of saying yes to the things that 0:06:55.390 --> 0:06:58.680 you uniquely can do is making sure that your calendar 0:06:58.740 --> 0:07:03.380 contains time for this. You have something called a MWM, 0:07:03.610 --> 0:07:04.869 meeting with me. 0:07:05.310 --> 0:07:06.469 Can you talk about that? 0:07:06.770 --> 0:07:07.029 Yeah. 0:07:07.210 --> 0:07:10.790 So the thing is that, you know, we often get 0:07:10.850 --> 0:07:14.770 our calendar full up with other people's requests. And you've 0:07:14.810 --> 0:07:17.070 got to think about how do you protect the time? Now, 0:07:17.100 --> 0:07:19.220 I think everybody knows, well, in principle, I should block 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.730 time for my deeper thinking or bigger priorities. But often 0:07:23.770 --> 0:07:26.210 it doesn't get protected. So I really encourage people to 0:07:26.270 --> 0:07:30.150 take a couple of strategies in blocking a meeting with myself, 0:07:30.650 --> 0:07:33.610 which is one, you know, be very opportunistic. If you 0:07:33.650 --> 0:07:37.910 see a block opening up in your calendar and you think, oh, 0:07:38.030 --> 0:07:41.890 something's been cancelled and I've now got this space, lock 0:07:41.950 --> 0:07:44.740 it in and block it for yourself. You can call 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.480 it strategy session if you share your calendar with other people. 0:07:49.060 --> 0:07:51.640 And then the other thing I suggest is the time-honored 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.080 thing of saying, okay, well, maybe there's a slot each 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.660 week when I do my big picture review. That often 0:07:57.700 --> 0:08:00.940 gets competed out because I think people try and block 0:08:00.980 --> 0:08:03.440 a bigger time block than is ever going. 0:08:03.350 --> 0:08:04.080 To be realistic. 0:08:04.110 --> 0:08:06.490 So I encourage people to be super realistic about what 0:08:06.530 --> 0:08:08.630 that time is. Maybe it's 30 minutes in a week 0:08:09.170 --> 0:08:11.490 and you block that for yourself and you block it 0:08:11.670 --> 0:08:14.590 at a time when you're at your cognitive best. So 0:08:14.650 --> 0:08:17.390 not you know, not when you're, it depends on your 0:08:17.410 --> 0:08:20.130 body clock, but not when you're not feeling so sharp, 0:08:20.170 --> 0:08:21.910 but try to put it at a time when you 0:08:21.950 --> 0:08:24.800 know you're feeling sharp. And, you know, that works for 0:08:24.830 --> 0:08:28.200 me and it works for the people that I work with. 0:08:28.580 --> 0:08:32.179 And it's a mix of being opportunistic and realistic that 0:08:32.260 --> 0:08:32.820 makes it work. 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:33.080 I think. 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:34.280 Sounds good. 0:08:34.540 --> 0:08:36.090 Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and 0:08:36.110 --> 0:08:45.220 then I'll be back with more from Caroline Webb. Well, 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.400 I am back talking with Caroline Webb, who is an 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:51.200 executive coach and the author of the new book, Leadership Intelligence. 0:08:51.660 --> 0:08:55.010 So Caroline, another one of the scenarios that you talk 0:08:55.050 --> 0:08:56.970 about is that many leaders need to come up with 0:08:57.130 --> 0:09:00.910 good ideas, lots of new ideas, good ideas. What is 0:09:00.970 --> 0:09:05.250 the FUSE method, F-U-S-E, that you suggest people follow? 0:09:05.870 --> 0:09:08.610 So the FUSE method is all about getting your mind 0:09:09.010 --> 0:09:13.000 into the right place to do the hard and interesting 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.300 work of solving a new problem. And when you're trying 0:09:16.330 --> 0:09:18.210 to come up with a new idea, you've got to 0:09:18.670 --> 0:09:21.429 create conditions for your brain to make new connections. And 0:09:21.990 --> 0:09:24.170 that isn't just business as usual. You've got to get 0:09:24.190 --> 0:09:28.310 your brain into a slightly different state. So FUSE stands 0:09:28.390 --> 0:09:32.390 for focus your mind, unpack your mind, shift your mind, 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:39.860 and enable or equip. So focus your mind is where 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.780 you need to quiet the distractions that are inside and 0:09:42.860 --> 0:09:43.660 outside your mind. 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:44.460 So FUSE. 0:09:45.650 --> 0:09:48.550 Distractions that are outside your mind, that is taking out 0:09:48.590 --> 0:09:52.280 the clutter, that is taking out the distractions, turning off 0:09:52.300 --> 0:09:55.660 your phone, turning off notifications, because as soon as you 0:09:55.750 --> 0:09:58.569 have anything that splinters your attention, nothing gets the full 0:09:58.970 --> 0:10:02.660 benefit of your intelligence. And then inside your mind, you 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:04.000 want to be really clear. Well, what is it I'm 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.080 actually working on? So, so often we sit down, we're 0:10:06.100 --> 0:10:08.819 trying to figure something out. And then we say, okay, 0:10:09.780 --> 0:10:12.950 what is it that I am trying to do here? 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:14.890 And then 10 minutes have gone by before you actually 0:10:15.390 --> 0:10:18.170 really bring your mind to it. So being really clear about, okay, 0:10:18.210 --> 0:10:20.729 what is it I'm truly, truly focusing on? I'm really 0:10:20.770 --> 0:10:23.270 trying to come up with an idea on this. Unpack 0:10:23.309 --> 0:10:25.839 your mind is you've got a lot of stuff swirling around. 0:10:26.580 --> 0:10:28.620 write it down so you're not having to try and 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.020 keep it all in your mind. Your brain's got a 0:10:30.020 --> 0:10:32.820 very small amount of working memory. And then chunk it 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.680 into four or five, three or four, not more than that, 0:10:37.410 --> 0:10:40.710 chunks of themes or topics that you can group around. 0:10:40.929 --> 0:10:43.870 And the beauty of that is that it fits more 0:10:43.890 --> 0:10:45.790 what your capacity of your working memory is. When we 0:10:45.830 --> 0:10:48.290 take a long list of stuff and then we shrink 0:10:48.370 --> 0:10:51.760 it into four or five chunks, four or five headings, 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:53.360 the weird thing is that even though it's the same 0:10:53.380 --> 0:10:55.260 amount of information, our brains find it a lot easier 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.140 to cope with. And then shift is shift your perspective. 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.200 You've got to get into a different place and to 0:11:02.220 --> 0:11:06.719 see different ideas and make new connections that link ideas 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.020 in different ways. So there are a few different ways 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.470 you can do that. One thing I like is the 0:11:11.610 --> 0:11:13.750 two bite rule where you don't try and solve a 0:11:13.770 --> 0:11:16.730 problem in one go, but you deliberately plan a break 0:11:16.770 --> 0:11:18.590 in the middle. So you go away and then you 0:11:18.610 --> 0:11:21.950 come back. We all know you often see things differently 0:11:21.990 --> 0:11:24.340 when you do that. And that's a shift of perspective 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.050 that comes from stepping away and stepping back. And there 0:11:27.090 --> 0:11:29.370 are several other ideas in the book about how to 0:11:29.390 --> 0:11:34.510 do that. And then finally, equip or enable your mind 0:11:34.550 --> 0:11:37.500 to take the next steps. That's getting super practical on 0:11:37.510 --> 0:11:40.260 the next thing you do. And that's in there because 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.660 if you don't, sometimes you come back to your thinking session. 0:11:43.700 --> 0:11:45.880 You think, oh, what was it? What was it again 0:11:45.900 --> 0:11:50.650 that I was supposed to do? Make it be generous 0:11:50.690 --> 0:11:52.750 and kind to your future self and actually be really 0:11:52.809 --> 0:11:55.010 clear what is the exact next step that I'm taking 0:11:55.030 --> 0:11:55.370 from this. 0:11:55.990 --> 0:11:58.150 Yeah, and next steps are often motivating. I mean, as 0:11:58.170 --> 0:12:00.410 we take a small step, we want to keep going 0:12:00.510 --> 0:12:03.330 on it. But for sure, a good idea that is 0:12:03.410 --> 0:12:06.449 not put into practice is not really a good idea 0:12:06.650 --> 0:12:07.350 when it comes. 0:12:07.190 --> 0:12:07.810 Down to it. 0:12:09.170 --> 0:12:12.070 Another scenario, Caroline, that you have in the book is 0:12:12.090 --> 0:12:15.969 that sometimes leaders need to help a colleague who is struggling. 0:12:16.670 --> 0:12:19.380 Not necessarily like performance issues. I mean, hopefully there's good 0:12:19.460 --> 0:12:21.820 feedback about, you know, this is what I wanted you 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:23.820 to do. This is how it went, that there's regular 0:12:23.860 --> 0:12:25.640 feedback going on with there. But, you know, somebody who's 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.699 a good performer who seems to be struggling in a 0:12:28.740 --> 0:12:34.160 certain season here. You mentioned you had a scenario like 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:35.360 this a few years ago. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:37.380 Yeah. 0:12:38.620 --> 0:12:42.229 I really care about equipping managers and leaders to handle 0:12:42.270 --> 0:12:45.070 a situation where someone on their team is struggling. because 0:12:45.090 --> 0:12:47.429 I think we see a lot of it and I 0:12:47.590 --> 0:12:49.329 have been on the other side of it. I had 0:12:49.450 --> 0:12:54.730 a sort of slow moving health crash early in my 0:12:54.770 --> 0:12:58.090 years as a management consultant and I was working very hard. 0:12:58.130 --> 0:13:01.189 So it definitely wasn't a question of loving the job. 0:13:01.230 --> 0:13:03.630 I really did love the job, but I had this 0:13:03.670 --> 0:13:05.550 health crash. I kept on trying to work through it. 0:13:05.570 --> 0:13:09.480 It was really tough. And what happened in the end 0:13:09.540 --> 0:13:11.780 was I had a great boss who took me aside 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.559 and said, you know, what's going on? And He called 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.620 it out. So he had obviously checked his assumptions about 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:21.300 what was going on. He wasn't assuming that I was 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:25.160 looking tired because I wasn't committed. So he checked his 0:13:25.210 --> 0:13:27.630 assumptions beforehand. Then he asked what's going on. 0:13:27.870 --> 0:13:28.390 That's the A. 0:13:29.830 --> 0:13:34.630 Again, rather than jumping to any conclusions. And he listened 0:13:34.670 --> 0:13:36.630 really closely. And that's the lesson. 0:13:36.790 --> 0:13:37.240 That's the L. 0:13:37.950 --> 0:13:40.770 And he really paid close attention to what I was 0:13:40.809 --> 0:13:44.320 saying about the mix of physical health, but also some 0:13:44.340 --> 0:13:47.300 complexities on the family side. And then he helped me 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:51.420 make it manageable, which is the M. That was actually 0:13:51.460 --> 0:13:55.220 in the end taking some time off and regrouping and 0:13:55.540 --> 0:13:58.140 eventually being signed off to come back to work. And 0:13:58.260 --> 0:14:03.100 the reason why I do C-A-L, check, ask, listen, before 0:14:03.140 --> 0:14:04.900 make it management, is we so often want to go 0:14:04.970 --> 0:14:06.790 in and solve the problem. If we're good people, we 0:14:06.809 --> 0:14:10.069 want to help people to get back on track. We've 0:14:10.190 --> 0:14:12.970 really got to pause and say, okay, let me not 0:14:13.010 --> 0:14:15.110 make any assumptions. This is the same as the last 0:14:15.150 --> 0:14:19.750 time someone fell off their perch in my team. And 0:14:20.020 --> 0:14:22.270 how do I really make them feel heard and make 0:14:22.310 --> 0:14:25.530 sure I'm solving the right problem? So the C-A-L is 0:14:25.590 --> 0:14:28.290 designed to slow you down and get yourself into a 0:14:28.370 --> 0:14:30.950 curious mindset to make sure that you're making the right 0:14:30.990 --> 0:14:32.690 thing manageable for your colleague. 0:14:32.810 --> 0:14:35.530 All right, so the acronym is CALM. We're checking our assumptions, 0:14:35.550 --> 0:14:38.690 we're asking questions and listening and then making it manageable 0:14:39.350 --> 0:14:42.910 for them. So with the questions, though, I mean, obviously 0:14:42.930 --> 0:14:44.690 many people are a little bit nervous and for obvious 0:14:44.730 --> 0:14:47.610 and legal reasons of about, you know, asking too much 0:14:47.910 --> 0:14:50.460 about what is going on with an employee if there's 0:14:50.510 --> 0:14:53.180 trouble outside of work. Are there some sensitive ways to 0:14:53.300 --> 0:14:55.300 ask this so that the person feels that they can 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:57.900 volunteer what they need to or want to, but not 0:14:57.980 --> 0:14:59.280 more than they need to or want to? 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:02.160 Yeah, I think, you know, the more that you can 0:15:02.220 --> 0:15:07.160 stick to what I call a factual approach, the safer 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.140 the conversation is. In fact, I've never really seen it 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:11.590 go off the rails. if you use this approach. So 0:15:11.610 --> 0:15:17.700 you first of all, name very factually what you've noticed. 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.220 And you call it out, you say, I noticed that 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.920 you were late into the office three times last week, 0:15:25.020 --> 0:15:30.090 when normally before that you've been on time. And then ask, 0:15:30.830 --> 0:15:34.210 tell me what's going on and not jumping to assumptions, right? 0:15:34.250 --> 0:15:37.240 So it's so easy to say, is everything, you know, 0:15:37.580 --> 0:15:40.400 are you sick? Or is something going on at home? 0:15:41.530 --> 0:15:44.630 That's what you need to pause and hold yourself back from. 0:15:45.570 --> 0:15:47.729 Because it's, you don't want to kind of drive the 0:15:47.790 --> 0:15:50.550 conversation in one direction, if it's not actually the situation, 0:15:50.650 --> 0:15:52.170 and you don't want to make any assumptions, you want 0:15:52.190 --> 0:15:55.980 to create the space. So that factual observation, and then 0:15:56.020 --> 0:15:59.440 the tell me more, what's going on, allows them to 0:15:59.500 --> 0:16:02.609 choose how much to share. And I think it's Even 0:16:02.690 --> 0:16:05.310 better if you can set a clear intention at the 0:16:05.350 --> 0:16:08.750 top of the conversation and wrap it in, I care 0:16:08.770 --> 0:16:11.290 about you and I care about helping you do your 0:16:11.330 --> 0:16:14.120 best work and be your best self, whatever language feels 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.820 natural for you. And if you label it up front 0:16:17.580 --> 0:16:20.560 as that's the intention of the conversation, it's a lot 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:22.060 easier for people to feel like, oh, this. 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:22.700 Isn't a gotcha. 0:16:22.740 --> 0:16:27.630 This isn't necessarily a critical conversation. This is actually genuinely 0:16:27.670 --> 0:16:29.690 coming from a place of curiosity. So I think that's 0:16:29.730 --> 0:16:30.210 important too. 0:16:30.890 --> 0:16:33.050 And the problem making it manageable, you want to take 0:16:33.090 --> 0:16:36.370 the situation that may be feeling overwhelming for your employee 0:16:36.430 --> 0:16:38.050 and turn it into something that's more manageable. 0:16:38.390 --> 0:16:40.110 Obviously, you took a short leave of absence. 0:16:40.430 --> 0:16:42.740 Are there other ideas that are on the table for 0:16:42.780 --> 0:16:43.820 what managers could use? 0:16:44.700 --> 0:16:45.479 Yeah, for sure. 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.600 And I tell the story of a leader who's incredibly 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:52.680 thoughtful and creative about that in the book. I think, 0:16:52.860 --> 0:16:56.290 you know, often there can be ways to reallocate work 0:16:56.390 --> 0:16:59.270 around the team. You know, I think it's not that 0:16:59.310 --> 0:17:03.200 you want to, you know, disenfranchise someone who's struggling completely, 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.379 but there may be creative ways to think about, well, 0:17:05.540 --> 0:17:08.030 you know, perhaps they could learn the yes, grow, no 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.070 model and think about how to delegate more of their work. 0:17:11.130 --> 0:17:13.730 Maybe you can coach them on something that is going 0:17:13.810 --> 0:17:16.929 on in their life. And I think, you know, that's 0:17:18.050 --> 0:17:21.190 a role that leaders can and should play. Even if 0:17:21.250 --> 0:17:24.250 it's something that's going on in someone's personal life, you 0:17:24.270 --> 0:17:27.389 can help them think about, okay, what's going on? 0:17:28.140 --> 0:17:30.000 Tell me more about what's going on. OK, how are 0:17:30.020 --> 0:17:30.880 you thinking about that? 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:34.480 And, you know, is there anything that I can do 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.560 to help? It's such a small thing when you say 0:17:37.580 --> 0:17:39.980 it like that. But it means the world to people 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:41.619 if they're going through a tough time to know that 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:43.530 they're not alone and that their boss cares. 0:17:44.130 --> 0:17:44.670 Absolutely. 0:17:45.030 --> 0:17:46.510 We're going to take one more quick ad break and 0:17:46.570 --> 0:17:56.010 I'll be back with more from Caroline Webb. Well, I 0:17:56.070 --> 0:17:59.390 am back talking with Caroline Webb, who is a leadership 0:17:59.510 --> 0:18:02.050 expert and executive coach, author of the brand new book, 0:18:02.290 --> 0:18:06.290 Leadership Intelligence. So Caroline, I want to pivot to your schedule. 0:18:06.330 --> 0:18:08.220 I often ask people if they have a morning routine, 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.639 but I understand that you are something of a night owl, 0:18:10.700 --> 0:18:11.719 late night kind of person. 0:18:12.060 --> 0:18:13.920 How does that play out in terms of your schedule? 0:18:14.220 --> 0:18:14.720 That's right. 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:17.980 Well, it means that, you know, my whole schedule is 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.320 kind of shifted a couple of hours later than a 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.590 lot of people. You know, there's a lot of talk 0:18:23.609 --> 0:18:26.740 of getting up at 4 a.m., My body naturally wants 0:18:26.780 --> 0:18:30.100 to go to sleep at 4 a.m. So that's quite 0:18:30.180 --> 0:18:33.200 extremely different. It's like I'm living in a different time zone. 0:18:33.540 --> 0:18:35.699 And over the years, of course, I can't go to 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:37.680 bed at 4 a.m. much as I would love to. 0:18:37.940 --> 0:18:39.920 My mother was the same, by the way. So there's 0:18:39.940 --> 0:18:45.070 a genetic component here. But I've worked out how to 0:18:45.130 --> 0:18:48.870 be really clear about my boundaries. I generally have a 0:18:49.130 --> 0:18:53.790 start to the day that involves me trying to get 0:18:53.930 --> 0:18:56.379 a walk in so that I'm getting some sunlight and 0:18:56.450 --> 0:19:01.620 that helps my circadian rhythms lock in. I definitely check 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.959 my messages. That's entirely normal. But the key thing is 0:19:03.980 --> 0:19:07.620 I don't really schedule anything really key. 0:19:07.300 --> 0:19:08.340 That really matters. 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.510 In general, if I can avoid it, you can see 0:19:11.530 --> 0:19:16.210 all the caveats. If possible, I schedule from 11 a.m. 0:19:16.310 --> 0:19:16.609 Onwards. 0:19:17.420 --> 0:19:21.820 But I'll be happily doing recordings and meetings and coaching 0:19:22.020 --> 0:19:27.590 clients at 8pm. So it's just a different makeup. And 0:19:28.270 --> 0:19:30.310 the trick I've found is to be just very clear 0:19:30.330 --> 0:19:33.710 and transparent with people about that. And I think it 0:19:33.730 --> 0:19:38.070