1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. We spend time thinking about 2 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: those that we honor that have passed on to the 3 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: other side. One of the ways we do that as 4 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: a people is to memorializing, and I guess probably from 5 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: most of us, that involves a burial, that is setting 6 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: up a location perhaps where we can go and visit 7 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: time to time, remember the people that surrounded us, people 8 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: that impacted our lives. But when it comes to death, 9 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: many times some things are hidden. We've heard that old phrase, 10 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: They're going to take it to the grave with him. 11 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: That's where the practice of exhimation comes in. And today 12 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about Gloria Satterfield. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 13 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks. Joining me today is Jackie Howard, 14 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: executive producer Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackiet, I think 15 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: one of the things I'd like to explore with you 16 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: today is Gloria Sadderfield and her apparent pending exhimation. The 17 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: Glorious Sadderfield exhimation is coming about because of the investigation 18 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: into Alec Murdock. So many deaths surrounding this prominent family 19 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: in South Carolina since the death of Maggie and Paul 20 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: Murdock both were murdered outside their family home, discovered by 21 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: the father, Alex Murdock. Since then, he is in jail 22 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: charged with setting up a murder for hire on himself 23 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: to ensure that his remaining son would get millions in 24 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: life insurance policies that hit failed. Murdoch survived. He has 25 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: also been charged with stealing millions of dollars from his 26 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: law firm, and that included a four point three million 27 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: dollar ruling award for Glorious Sadderfield's children. Gloria Saderfield she 28 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: was the Murdoch housekeeper for over twenty years. She died 29 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: during a trip and fall accident in the Murdoch family home. Reportedly, 30 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:42,279 Speaker 1: Glorious Saderfield fell over dogs on the outside brick stairs 31 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: of the home and hit her head. Paul and Maggie 32 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: Murdoch called nine to one and tell the operator that 33 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: while she is breathing, she is setting up she is mumbling, 34 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: she's not making much sense. E MTS arrived. They take 35 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: Gloria Saderfield to the hospital. She is in ICU for 36 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: a lengthy period of time and ultimately died as a 37 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: result of a stroke. Her cause of death listed on 38 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: the death certificate is natural. That's the first thing that 39 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: I want to talk about, Joe, How does that happen? 40 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: But now sled officials have asked for permission which has 41 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: been given by the Sadderfield next to Keen, to exhume 42 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: her body. So many deaths centered on the Murdoch family 43 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,559 Speaker 1: and now police want to review this death. No autopsy 44 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: was done on Gloria Sadderfield at the time of her death, 45 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: and as I just mentioned, her cause of death was 46 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: listed as natural. I can't imagine that a trip and 47 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: fall is a natural death. But let's talk about exhimation first, 48 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: and then we'll talk about how it relates to Gloria. 49 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: What happens when you exume a body. It's an interesting 50 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: world to enter into, and for me, as a medical 51 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: legal death investigator, it's one of the most fascinating because 52 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: you're you're actually burying witness to those things that have 53 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: long since been buried. And of course that's variable depending 54 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: upon the type of case you're talking about. I've been 55 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: involved in cases that go back sixty years many times 56 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: where bodies have been exhumed. And let's think about the 57 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: root of that word. The root. Actually it comes from 58 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: the Latin, which means x you know, out of and 59 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: then pumas, which actually means ground, so you're removing the 60 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: body from the ground. There's other terms that are used 61 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: that people here, disinter but that's kind of separate to this. 62 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: But it's a it's a tough thing to do. I 63 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: think that many people in general public think that you 64 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: can just you know, run out, maybe grab an attorney 65 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 1: and say, look, I want my loved one disinterred or exhumed, 66 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: or the court investigators even say we want this body exumed. 67 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: The problem is is that there is kind of a 68 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: gatekeeper here, and that is a judiciary. There is a 69 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: judge that actually has to approve this or what is 70 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: referred to literally as an order of exhumation. It's not 71 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: something you know, judges don't want to be tied to 72 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: this idea that folks can just kind of willy nearly 73 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: run around and crack open graves and bring out the 74 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: dead because first off, you know, it's as I said 75 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: in my opening, you know, we talk about honoring the dead, 76 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: and they have a sense of that. The judiciary always 77 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: has because you know, when you have people that will 78 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: come along and they'll say, you know, while I have 79 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: this question or that question, the body needs to be exhumed. Well, 80 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: you can't just essentially throw that out there without logical 81 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: purpose in what you're doing, and that has to be presented. 82 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: It has to be presented by an attorney before the 83 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: judge where there is kind of this linear logic that 84 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: takes place where it can be explained very exactingly. Because 85 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: keep this in mind, every person that is buried at 86 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: some point in time has kind of passed through this 87 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: memorane of government approval on some level where they have 88 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: decided either by the coroner, the medical examiner, or the 89 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: police that this body is good to go. We can 90 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: have this individual embombed and then placed into their grave, 91 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: and so that can be problematic. It's really hard to 92 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: go into a graveyard and essentially put shovel to soil. 93 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: Some of those regulations that you're talking about, Joe, have 94 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: to do with embalming. You can in some jurisdictions request 95 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: for religious reasons or by explaining your reasons for wanting 96 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: this not be embalmed. So how does that affect the exhimation, Joe, 97 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: whether you're embalmed or not significantly? Because the process of 98 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: body prep of embalming and preparing the body, even clothing 99 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: the body. All these sorts of things in casketing the 100 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: body all play an integral role in preservation and absent, say, 101 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: for instance, embalming, the body is going to take a 102 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: normal course of decomposition and will begin to break down. 103 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: You know, people don't realize that when we die, and 104 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter where we are, the process of decomposition 105 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: actually begins in that moment. Once all cellular respiration has ceased, 106 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: we begin to break down. Now that might be at 107 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: a molecular level, you might not can appreciate it. So 108 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: time is of the essence. If there is some type 109 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: of religious prohibition against embalming, for instance, then those involved 110 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: in this will have the body buried in a very 111 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: short order. And of course, you know, right now I'm 112 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: reflecting back to Tammy Day Bell that probably in recent memory, 113 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: that's one of the most famous disinterments or exhimations that 114 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: has taken place. In that case is still pending. She 115 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: had been buried for some time, but the key to 116 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: her case was the fact that she went from Idaho 117 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: to Utah. In order to cross state lines, she had 118 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: to be embalmed. So in that sense, the investigators were 119 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: very fortunate if there was any kind of physical findings. 120 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: But when you place a body into the ground unembalmed, 121 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: and then there's problem because all of that evidentry, anything 122 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: that contains evident value, begins to kind of wither away 123 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: and nature just essentially consumes it. So you're hoping that 124 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: the body has been involved and not just embalmed, but 125 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: also to a high professional standard. I've worked many cases 126 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: of exhamation where we've retrieved the body from the ground, 127 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: taking the body out of the casket, placed the body 128 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: onto the ittypsing table, and because the embalming was so poor, 129 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: you sit there and you kind of scratch your head 130 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: and say, well, why'd you even bother in the first place, 131 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: why'd you even charge the family for this? Because you've 132 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: done a very bad job. But there are other cases 133 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: out there where the preservation is so remarkable that when 134 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: you open that casket up and removed body, it literally 135 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: looks like this individual just passed away within the last 136 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: few days. An image comes to mind for me. I 137 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: had a gentleman that was a pastor that was alleged 138 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: to have been beaten by someone and the family got 139 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: an order of eximation. And you know, he was dressed 140 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: all in white. He had a white jacket, white pants, 141 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: white shirt, even a white tie, white socks, and white 142 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: shoes on. And he had a single carnation that a 143 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: red carnation that had been placed in his lapel, and 144 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: everything on his body was perfectly intact. The only thing 145 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: that had changed was the status of the carnation and 146 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: it had kind of melded into the fabric where it 147 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 1: left this kind of dark, deep red stain. But she 148 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: could still appreciate the stem. So preservation is key here. 149 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: So what do you mean by it's gone wrong that 150 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: it was not well? What does that mean exactly? Just 151 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: like you know in any kind of professional practice, there 152 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: are people that are really at the top of their 153 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: game when they're doing anything, and there are those that 154 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: might not pay a closive attention. Was the body sufficiently preserved? 155 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: And that means were the incisions made correctly where the 156 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: profusion items were placed into the body. And then there 157 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: was a successful embalming where you're seeing that all of 158 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: the tissues have been touched, if you will, by the 159 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: embalming fluid. And sometimes there's not the best job that 160 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: is done under those circumstances. And so any area, let's 161 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: say you have one portion of the body that has 162 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,599 Speaker 1: been pretty sufficiently involved and then another area where the 163 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: embalming fluid, say, did not reach that particular area, that 164 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: area will be markedly decomposed and compared to the rest 165 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: of the body, and so that generates a problem if 166 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: you're looking at this exhumed body from a forensic standpoint, 167 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: in that area that has been touched by decomposition is 168 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: key to your investigation, then all is lost at that point. 169 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: But again, you have groups of individuals that do and 170 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: for the most part, do fine work. You know, it 171 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: only comes to light during exhamations relative to the quality 172 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: of the preservation that's left behind, because as we know, 173 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: most bodies don't get exhumed. Most people do not expect 174 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: their body or the bodies of their loved ones to 175 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: be exhumed, and so that can be problematic that when 176 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: you're faced with that. The other issue here that you're 177 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: faced with in burials is when the body is placed 178 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: in the ground. Remember, when a casket is placed in 179 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: the ground, you don't simply just dig a hole and 180 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: then drop the casket in there, there's an entire process 181 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: that takes place. They actually put a crypt in the ground. 182 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: And when I say crypt, and I'm talking about a vault, 183 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: it's a large concrete box. And so the casket is 184 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: not just set into bare earth, because the earth consumes everything, 185 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 1: it's not these caskets contrary to what you might have heard, 186 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: or not as resilient sometimes as advertised. So the casket 187 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: is actually lowered into this vault, this concrete vault that 188 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: has been placed in the hole prior to the casket 189 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: going in, and then a concrete lid is placed on 190 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: top of the vault after the casket has been placed inside. 191 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: So you've got this kind of double level of protection. 192 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: But one of the things that folks don't necessarily count on, 193 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: and I don't know that any of us do, is 194 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: the impact, say for instance, of groundwater, flooding, all these 195 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: sorts of things, and you can't it's really hard if 196 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: you will, to defeat nature. Many times these vaults actually 197 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: fill up with water, and even if a body has 198 00:12:54,840 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: been sufficiently embalmed, then water is an another factor that 199 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: can impact the status of the body because with water 200 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: comes in all kinds of microbial life and those sorts 201 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: of things that embalming is not necessarily going to defeat, 202 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: and it will just kind of spur this decomposition on. 203 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: It'll just appear slightly different. And then you know, you 204 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: begin to think about, you know, the structure, the structure 205 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: of the quality of say a vault. Has it been 206 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: placed in there appropriately? Does it cave in on itself? 207 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: There are any number of cases where the vault itself 208 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: was a poor quality and the earth begins to kind 209 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: of cave in around the thing, crushing the casket. And 210 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: of course when that happens, you're creating these huge defects 211 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: in this environment. So anything that's on the outside is 212 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: going to seek out those points of entry relative to 213 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: so any remains that are contained in there can be 214 00:13:52,120 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: compromised greatly as well. You think about burials and our 215 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: efforts to try to preserve are dead, and it's kind 216 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: of understandable that you've got a lot of elements working 217 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: against you. I mean, everything from weather to poor mortuary practices, 218 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: to the wishes of families not warning bodies involved, and 219 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: even something I didn't mention earlier, you began to think 220 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: that there's actually tiny little insects called coffin flies that 221 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: can you can't defeat them, they will actually make their 222 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: way into the coffin. So there's a lot running against 223 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: you at this period of time if you're a forensic 224 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: scientist and you're trying to seek out information about someone 225 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: that has long since been dead and buried. You were 226 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: talking about the exhimation process, and once the body is 227 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: exhumed and moved into the morgue for further autopsy investigation, 228 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: about what the investigators the EMMY would see, obviously, continuing 229 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: your discussion on quality versus ineffectual embalming practices, what are 230 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: the investigators going to see? And I would have to 231 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: imagine that because of the embalming, that any toxicological findings 232 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: are basically moot because there's no blood and the body 233 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: is filled with artificial fluids. Yeah, and that does certainly 234 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: present a problem. And let's keep in mind that these investigators, 235 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: relative to Glorious Sadderfield, are going into this case armed 236 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: with a knowledge, and keep in mind this is a 237 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: physician that has made this determination that they're dealing with 238 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: a natural death. And I got to go back just 239 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: for a second kind of correct something that you said, Jackie. 240 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: You talked about that the cause of death was natural. 241 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: Well natural, it's one of the five components of actual 242 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: manners of death. And this is kind of fascinating in 243 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: this particular case because in Glorious Sadderfield's case, they ruled 244 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: her death as the manner as natural, but they listed 245 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: the cause as head trauma, and those two things don't 246 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: marry up. You don't naturally sustain head trauma. Logic has 247 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: to be applied to this. You know, my first stop 248 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: along the continuum here as an investigator, it's certainly going 249 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: to be the medical records department where Glory unfortunately passed away. 250 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna want to see every thing they have, and 251 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: she's been in the hospital for a couple of days 252 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: by the time she finally succumbs, I'm gonna want to 253 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: see any kind of imaging that means X ray, CT scans, 254 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: MRI's PET scans, it doesn't matter. I want to see it. 255 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: I want to see all of her toxicology because remember anything, 256 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: any blood that was drawn at that particular time and 257 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: they ran hospital test on her, that blood's gone. Now, 258 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: you know, we got to think about this. In the 259 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: process of embalming, you're going from high to low. There's 260 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: a gravitational you know, element to this. When an individual 261 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: is placed onto an embalming table, the head is pitched 262 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: up feet or lower than the head and when this 263 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: process starts of drawing out the blood out of the body, 264 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: it's being pushed out of the body through the pressure 265 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: of the embalming fluid coming in. And you know, once 266 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: the body is embombed, all of that blood that would 267 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: tell the tale if you if you, if you will 268 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: is now gone. You can't use it. So in miss 269 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: Sadderfield's case, the issue here is what types of samples 270 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: did they draw from her when they finally got her 271 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: to the hospital, and did they run appropriate testing at 272 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: that point in time, you know, looking for anything any 273 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: kind of toxicological issues relative to drugs that were on board, 274 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,239 Speaker 1: any kind of things like cardiac enzymes, what they call 275 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: a CBC handle, all those things that you standardly do 276 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: in the hospital. What was that telling us? Because now 277 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: it's all gone at this point in time, and so 278 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: that creates a problem for the investigators. And if they 279 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: have an opportunity to review all of that prior to 280 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: doing the examination on the examed body, they're going to 281 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: be much better armed. So when investigators start there, I 282 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: guess new autopsy, for lack of a better way to 283 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: say it, they're going to see the injuries, the cleaned 284 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:33,959 Speaker 1: up injuries that Glorious Sadderfield has. How is the preparation 285 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: of the body for burial going to impact that, because 286 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: we do know they do body putty, they do make up. 287 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: Depending on where her injuries are, these may or may 288 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: not have had to be done. So how do they 289 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: go about removing what they can to get to the 290 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 1: actual wounds. That's an excellent question, and here's what will happen. 291 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: First off, let's go back to that nine one one 292 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: call that Paul and his mother were involved in. And 293 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 1: one of the things that Paul stated, of course he's 294 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: now deceased, that he stated in that nine one one 295 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: call was that she was bleeding from her head and 296 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: where else her ear. So when you're looking at this year, 297 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: you know, for me, if you have blood coming out 298 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: of your ear, you're you're talking about kind of a 299 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: fracture potentially of the floor of the skull. It's not 300 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: just simply going to be the top of the head. 301 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: So she's got perhaps multiple fractures are what they refer 302 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: to as communicating fracture. That means that the blow that 303 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: was sustained creates such a fracture that the initial point 304 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: of impact creates this kind of cracking that goes all 305 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: the way through to the floor of the skull. So 306 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: that's going to be very important. But here's the problem. 307 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 1: She wasn't autopsied at the time you'd said new autopsy. 308 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: There hasn't been an original autopsy. Can you imagine this, 309 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: that they're taking this woman who is sustained this kind 310 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: of trauma and in essentially burying her. And it's by 311 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: no fault of the family. You know, the families don't 312 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: do this every single day. Who is to be held 313 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: in account here, held responsible for this is the hospital 314 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: because it wasn't reported to the corner. The corner can 315 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: investigated death unless they have been summoned, unless they've been notified. 316 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 1: And to me, that's that's a very very critical issue 317 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: here that you have this multitude of a learned medical 318 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: individuals that know that this is a trauma related death 319 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: and they didn't think to call the corner because these 320 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: kinds of cases are mandatory that they be reported. In 321 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: her case, it was not so. Now when she's going 322 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: to come in after they have exhumed her body and 323 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: they bring her back to the medical examiner's office for 324 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: the examination, and trust me, you're gonna have all eyes 325 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: on her body. That that room will be filled with 326 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: all manner of people. You'll have forensic scientists there, you 327 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: might be and have a couple of forensic pathologies there, 328 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: and of course the police are going to have a 329 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: tremendous presence there and they're going to go through everything 330 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: that they can as they remove her body and try 331 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: to appreciate these injuries. And one of the things that 332 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: you have to cut through the veil with here is 333 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: the fact that not only was their funeral or mortuary 334 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: preparation of her body, but there was also medical intervention 335 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: that took place prior to that. And let me give 336 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: you kind of a lowdown on this. If you're talking 337 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: about blunt force trauma, which we are, that means that 338 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: you're looking at a potential laceration to the scalt well. 339 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: If there's a laceration, the medical team will essentially either 340 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: staple or suiture that up well. That has to be 341 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: factored in to her treatment course. And then if the 342 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: funeral home did anything to that particular area. You know, 343 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: as you mentioned applying any kind of makeup, the putty 344 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: that you had mentioned, those sorts of things to make 345 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: her viewable, then that's also going to have to That 346 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: layer is also going to have to remove. So you know, 347 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: in my experience of working on exhoomed bodies and doing 348 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: their autopsies, I don't know of any other any other 349 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: cases that take as much time as exoomed bodies do. 350 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: I can recall spending up to eight to nine hours 351 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: on a single body once you have it. Because listen, 352 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: once that body is out of the ground, everybody's interested. 353 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: You've got a lot of eyes on you at that 354 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: point in time, and so there'll be a lot of 355 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: postmortal X rays that will be taken. In this particular case, 356 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: All kinds of imaging will go on. It would not 357 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: surprise me if maybe they had access to a cat scan, 358 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: that they would run the body through the cat scan 359 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: while they had the body and all of these little 360 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: nuanced areas that they're going to have to dig into, 361 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: because once they're complete with this, the judge is going 362 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: to require that they reinter the body. At that time. 363 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: They're not just going to leave her there. So they're 364 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: going to have to put her back into her casket 365 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: and back into her burial space, and so they have 366 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: to capture as much information as they possibly can at 367 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: that moment in time. You said that the wounds would 368 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: have been sutured closed at the hospital after her death. 369 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: Isn't that going to degrade the wound area? I mean, 370 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: isn't that going to change the topography of the head 371 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: of what actually happened. How does that impact you being 372 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: able to tell what happened? Yeah, it does. And this 373 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: is you've got a couple of elements working here. First off, 374 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: you have medical intervention, which I'd mentioned. And when these edges, 375 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: which are going to be very jagged, Remember we're talking 376 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: about blunt force trauma. This is not a sharp force event. 377 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: They're going to be very jagged. And so you're going 378 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: to have and people can you think back to their 379 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: own personal experiences where they've had some kind of impact 380 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: injury on their body that required suturing. They're not clean 381 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: and neat, and so it's going to take this kind 382 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: of what we refer to as a curvilinear. And yeah, 383 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: that's a real word that's used in forensic science. A 384 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: curvilinear pattern many times, and if she's been struck multiple times, 385 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: which I don't know if she was or not, you 386 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: might have multiple lacerations along the way, and all of 387 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: those are going to have to be suited up, because 388 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: remember before this became a forensics case, this is a 389 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: medical case. You're trying to save her life. So they're 390 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: going to go to any means they can possibly. I 391 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: think all of us would want them to to try 392 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: to make sure that she is going to survive, and 393 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: unfortunately she didn't, So it's going to change the initial appearance. 394 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: As opposed to if we had a body of some 395 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,479 Speaker 1: unfortunate person that had beaten to death out on the street, 396 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: you could appreciate that readily. You know where that body 397 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: is taken directly to the Mulligan examined. But now, not 398 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: only do you have the suit train that's taking place, 399 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: you potentially have some healing that may have taken place 400 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: as well. And what does that mean for us, Because 401 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: one of the key things we're going to be looking 402 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 1: for here are going to be evidence of hemorrhage in 403 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: the soft tissues of the skull and also overlying what 404 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: we call the external table of the skull and any 405 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: kind of pattern that may have been there. Let's say, 406 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: you know, they're saying that when Missaderfield fell that and 407 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: it's kind of nonspecific at this point, but when she fell, 408 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: she was on a set of stairs and they were 409 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 1: external stairs, So we can kind of put forth our 410 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: supposition is that they're either brick or they're either concrete. 411 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: Either way, it's a hard surface that you're going to strike. 412 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: If there are edges there, you could appreciate a pattern 413 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: of an edge, for instance, if it's blunted, say like 414 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: kind of a curved concrete step, that's going to have 415 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: a completely different appearance, and it's going to be very rich, 416 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: and say an abraided or an abrasion that might be 417 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: there where that point of impact is. All of that's 418 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: going to be compromised at this point in time. So 419 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: they're going to be heavily reliant upon all of the 420 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: anti mordant records, that is, those records that were generated 421 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: prior to her death, and then they have to factor 422 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: in the treatment course along with they're going to they 423 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: would literally, and I have to say this, they're going 424 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: to have to bring in probably the mortuary science person 425 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: that tended to her body and question them at length. 426 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: You have to tell us specifically what you did to 427 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: her remains when you received them from the hospital, because 428 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: we have to know what you saw at that point 429 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: in time, did you change anything at all? And they 430 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: should have a record of their preparation at that point 431 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: in time. And then what you're left with essentially is 432 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: what comes up out of the burial. You know, what 433 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: can you observe that can be tied back to a 434 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: specific point of origin relative to this impact injury that 435 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: she has sustained. This is going to be a very, 436 00:26:50,600 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: very involved examination. And granted, exclamations don't don't take place 437 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: every single day, but there have been enough of them 438 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: over the years that have actually changed the course of 439 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: cases that have gotten people off the streets, that committed 440 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: horrible crimes that they thought that they had gotten away with. 441 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: And you know, Glorious Sadderfield's case is an example of 442 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: having to go back in and take a look. And 443 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: they're right on the edge of this right now. But 444 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: there's a few of the cases that I think that 445 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: we can examine, wouldn't you agree, Jackie? I would in 446 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: those cases obviously, Tammy Day Bell which we still don't 447 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: have the resolution of this yet. You mentioned that earlier. 448 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: Let's also talk about Kathleen Savio and Shelley Danishevsky. But 449 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you first, Joe, who does the 450 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: apop see un an exhumed body, obviously performing an autopsy? 451 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: Is a pathologist? Are there pathologists who specialize in just exhumations? 452 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: You know, I can't imagine if you're just looking at 453 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,239 Speaker 1: from a practical standpoint, there's they're not forensic pathologists out 454 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: there that essentially make their living doing exhimations. You probably 455 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: start to death that was the case. However, I think 456 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: that they're depended upon how how skilled the pathologist is. 457 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: People have advanced skill sets in this area. And you know, 458 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: obviously the more autopsies you're involved in, the higher the 459 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: likelihood is that you're going to come across an opportunity 460 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: to do an exhimation case. What I do know, and 461 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: this is quite fascinating, is that the medical legal community 462 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: in South Carolina and just let's sink your teeth into 463 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: this just for a second, has been left completely out, 464 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: completely out of the glorious adder Field case period. Now 465 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: they've been involved in all these their desks that kind 466 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: of swirl around the Murdoch family, but her case in 467 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: particular was not even on the radar of the medical 468 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: legal community. I'm talking about the corners, the medical examiners, 469 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists in state of South Carolina. So I 470 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: can tell you this about this particular case. First off, 471 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: the corner for this particular county is going to be 472 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: friend and center in this They're going to request that 473 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists that they normally work with do this examination, 474 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: and it would not surprise me at all if they 475 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: bring in consulting forensic pathologist as well, so that they've 476 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: got another set of eyes on this particular case, because 477 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: this thing is so very complex that you need as 478 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: many professionals on this case to take a look at 479 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: it with. Of course, the primary medical examiner is going 480 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: to be the one that is in charge, the primary 481 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist, but they very well might have others that 482 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: are in the room just to make sure that they 483 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: get everything. Because time is of the essence. Let's look 484 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: at what might actually come out of this and any 485 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: other exhimation. We know in the Tammy Day Bell case, 486 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: they were looking for evidence that she had been killed 487 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: or poisoned by her then husband. This investigation into Gloria 488 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: Sadderfield because the manner of death was considered natural, but 489 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: she had head trauma as a cause in relationshi to 490 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: all the other deaths that seemed to be circling around 491 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: the Murdoch family. Now, in the Kathleen Savio case, she 492 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: was the third wife of Chicago police officer Drew Peterson. 493 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: The investigation into Kathleen Savio's death started when Drew Peterson's 494 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: fourth wife disappear. Now, Kathleen Savio died in her bathtub 495 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: of a head wound. She had, I believe a one 496 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: inch dash in her head and it was surmised that 497 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: she hit her head, fell into the bathtub and drowned. 498 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 1: But the problem was the bathtub was dry. Investigator's surmise 499 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: that well, okay, the water drained out, but we find 500 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: that wasn't the case. Jokes. So investigators exhumed Kathleen Savio's body. 501 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: What did they find. Yeah, well, when they know they 502 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: didn't think that this kind of met and must if 503 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: you will. And these dry drowning cases are real headscratchers 504 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: to begin with. One of the first things you're going 505 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: to look for at autopsy on somebody that you are 506 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: actually opining had drowned, is that the water might be 507 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: out of the tub, But guess what doesn't change. That's 508 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: the weight of the lungs. If an individual has essentially 509 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,479 Speaker 1: inhalated water into their lungs, the lungs will be heavy 510 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: and congested more so than normal. So I think that 511 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: that would be my first question. Yeah, she might have 512 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: had a head injury that you're listing as the fatal event, 513 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: but how did you arrive at this drowning proposition that 514 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: you put? But when they finally did exhumes Savio's body, 515 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: one of the things that they determined was the fact 516 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: that she didn't just have one one blow to the 517 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: back of her head. There was one, you know, significant 518 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: lacerated area that initial point of contact, and I'm sure 519 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: that it stood out, but you know, as they were 520 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: going through this case, they they suddenly determined that they 521 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: had at least six or maybe even seven other points 522 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: of impact on her head that were not that were 523 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: not lacerated, but they had these deep bruises that were there. 524 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: So you know, you can understand, I think, and certainly 525 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: our listeners can that if you fall one time, you 526 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: strike your head. That's understandable, but you're not going to 527 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: fall six to seven times, generating each individual bruising, you know. 528 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: And in conclusion, that's that's how they wound up determining 529 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: that this was not as advertised, this is not an 530 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: accidental death. They knew just simply based upon these injuries 531 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: that they discovered at the autopsy per the eximation that 532 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: she had been struck multiple times. And this is a 533 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: fine example of what can be left behind even after 534 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: she had been embalmed and buried. The one thing about 535 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: the particularly hemorrhage that you can never get past in 536 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: a case like this is it it doesn't disappear. Do 537 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 1: you know why? Well, because when you know, we were 538 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: talking about how when the embalming fluid is traversing through 539 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: the body, right, it's it's it's essentially going through our 540 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: vascular system, it's going through the veins and arteries and 541 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. But when blunt force takes 542 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: place and you generate a hemorrhage, a point of hemorrhage 543 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: or bruise, if you will, the reason it bruises is 544 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: because that little capillary bed area, that specific area has 545 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: been compromised it's been ruptured, and so now it's out 546 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: into what's referred to I'm going to say this very slowly. 547 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: It's called the interstitial tissue. You're literally bleeding out into 548 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: the soft tissue surrounding that point of impact. So the 549 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: embalming fluid is not going to eradicate that it will 550 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,399 Speaker 1: still be there. And didn't that fascinating with Saba's case 551 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,399 Speaker 1: because they still saw evidence of this after she had 552 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: been dead and buried for some time. Shelley Denishevsky's case 553 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: is very similar in that Denishevsky was found by her 554 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: daughter in the bathtub and it was thought that she 555 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: had slipped, fallen and hit her head. Denishevsky was not 556 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: autopsied either, because she and her family are Orthodox Jews. 557 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: So as this case progressed, investigators requested the exhimation of 558 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: Denishevsky's body and they found something totally different that it 559 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: was not caused by hitting her head and drowning. Shelley's 560 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: death was caused by a net compression, meaning what well, 561 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: that there was direct pressure apply to her neck and therefore, 562 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 1: you know this is going to be consistent with the say, 563 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: for instance, someone pinning her to the floor and pressing 564 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: down on her neck, perhaps a strangulation of some type 565 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: where you're actually applying pressure directly by the palm of 566 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: the hand. You any number of things can create a 567 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: net compression. But we do know this. Again, you're back 568 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: to this issue someone slipping and falling in the bathtub, 569 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 1: and you want to try to honor the family's wishes 570 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: as best you possibly can. But this again goes to 571 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: show if someone has sustained trauma, it needs to be 572 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: further investigated because if you cannot validate the origin of 573 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: that trauma specifically, I mean really scientifically validated, it's going 574 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: to wind up in a problem going down the road, 575 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: just like it did in this case. I've actually been 576 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 1: involved in another case similar to this that involved our 577 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: Orthodox community in the New Orleans area when I was there, 578 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: and again that case slipped under the radar and it 579 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: turned out later to be a hamsa. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 580 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: and this is bodybacks