1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: Also media, Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: where Sophie is not in the room right now. So 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: doctor cave Hoda and I are are the foxes watching 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: the hen house? That is also we're we're also the hens. 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 2: I am the producer, I am the captain. 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: Now we're like hin foxes, like like a cat dog situation. 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: Although I imagine a hen fox. The fox is just 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: going to try to eat it's hin. That's part of 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: its butt, I imagine. 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: I love your quaint country colloquialisms. It's great. I don't 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: know what they mean. 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: But oh yeah, you're probably too young for that cartoon. 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: I was the right age for it. 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: Now. 15 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: Yes, doctor Hoda miser care expert legally my doctor, Do 16 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: you have any do you have any theories that you 17 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: can't prove, that are unprovable, that are probably nonsense, that 18 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: you nonetheless believe about health? About health? Yeah, yeah, I 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: got a lot. 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: As a doctor. I feel like I should. Uh you know, 21 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 2: I will talk to you at great length about how 22 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 2: supplements are a fantastic waste of time. Uh And I 23 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 2: will tell you in detail, and I have on many 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: episodes why they're more dangerous generally than they are good 25 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: and you should only use them with strict instructions from 26 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 2: your physician. But that being said, I feel like ginger 27 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: really helps me in like a power up way that 28 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 2: it doesn't. I know it doesn't, but I love it, 29 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: and the placebo effect is so strong for me that, 30 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, Ginger's my magic thing, my little magic 31 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: creation in my mind that works more than it really does. 32 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not big on supplements. I do take my 33 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: doctor advised me to take for blood pressure, calcium and potassium. 34 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: Uh so I do. 35 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: I do. I do some of that, which I've noticed 36 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: I don't get cramps as much as I used to, 37 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: So I guess I guess I'll call that a win. 38 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: I do love looking it into the different potential side effect. 39 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: I love going on to like biohacking subreddits and seeing 40 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: people talk about like the side effects they're having with 41 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: with various weird supplements they're taking to never die. Although 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: my favorite is the Lion's Main subreddit. So Lion's Main 43 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: is like a mushroom that does have like some it 44 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: does have like an effect on your your your brain right, 45 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: Like there's there's actually some like studied benefits of Lion's maine. 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,399 Speaker 1: But it's like it's a pretty mild supplement, but there's 47 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: this group of people who are convinced that like taking 48 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: it once has like destroyed their life in the way 49 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: that like a huge dose of psilocybin. Mushrooms might have 50 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: like mind alter effects. And it's like, man, everyone at people, 51 00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: I don't put like it in their smoothies. 52 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: I don't. 53 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: I don't think it's the fucking lions main that's giving 54 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: you nightmares for the last seven years of your life. 55 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: I mean that is that is That's the kind of 56 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 2: thing I hear a lot about, Like every medication you 57 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 2: name it out there, someone has had someone blames that 58 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 2: medication for their life being in shambles. Yeah, and you 59 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: know it's medication we're talking about today. Lots of risks, 60 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: It's true. They all they all do some more than others. 61 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,399 Speaker 2: I think we're probably going to discuss here. But uh, yeah, 62 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 2: I don't know if Lion's maine, which I'm not familiar with, 63 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: really so it's us. 64 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: It's a mushroom, you know, it's got you know, some 65 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: mushrooms have like, uh neurological impacts and stuff on people. 66 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: But you know, my My particular favorite medical theory, doctor 67 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: doctor Hoda is that obviously cigarettes are bad, terrible for 68 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: for almost everyone, nearly always horrible. But I think there's 69 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: a slightly less than one percent of the population that 70 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: have a genetic abnormality that makes cigarettes make them live forever. 71 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: Because every now and then I'll meet you know, sometimes 72 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: in like little corners of the world or whatever. I've 73 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: met f like little old ladies in Japan or like 74 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: ninety six, and they're like, yeah, I've been chainsmoking cigarette 75 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: since I was like eleven years old or something like that, 76 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: and it's like, clearly it works for you. Like there's 77 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: some some minority of the population that cigarettes make and vulnerable. 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,239 Speaker 2: I feel like this is that meme of the plane 79 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: that returns from war with the bullet holes. You're never 80 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 2: gonna hear me say cigarettes are okay. They know what 81 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: they've done, they know. 82 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: I know they've killed They've killed uncountable more people than 83 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: war in the twentieth century, and war killed so many 84 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: people in the twentieth century. But every now and then 85 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: I'll meet some like ninety year old woman who smokes 86 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: four packs a day and she's doing fine. So clearly 87 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: clearly science doesn't understand everything about the maligned cigarette. 88 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: Don't smoke cigarettes, okay enough. 89 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: Don't vape o vape that's the one that worries I mean, like, 90 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: especially since all of my friends vape heavily. It's one 91 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: of those like, yeah, but it's got to be doing 92 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: something right, Like it's got something. 93 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: Like oh, for sure, for sure, I'm a huge fan 94 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: of vaping. Either there is harm reduction. There's a good 95 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 2: argument about that, but I'm not You're not going to 96 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: see me promote vaping either. 97 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: That said, you know, when we get into the whole 98 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: what is it responsible to tell people to do or not? 99 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: A lot of times the greatest harms are things that 100 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: people like cigarettes, were told by their doctors are great 101 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: for them. And today we're going to tell one of 102 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: those stories, a story of a drug that became the 103 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: lead seller for a major pharmaceutical company that was backed 104 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: by an alliance of physicians who had shall we say, 105 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: some you know, financial interest in finding that this thing worked. 106 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: Today we're talking about vox, which is I think an 107 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: infamous name now in the annals of medical science. People 108 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: tend to know what I'm talking about. But if you 109 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: don't this killed more Americans than the Vietnam War. Like that, 110 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: that's the story we're getting into today. What do you 111 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: know about ViOS. 112 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: You know, I was too young to really be I 113 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: wasn't really practicing medicine when it happened, but I did 114 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: know about it, and I've heard some about it since then. 115 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: I'm really very fascinated by the story and I'm really 116 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: looking forward, yeah to getting into it today. So I'm 117 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: excited about that. I will say I think it was 118 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 2: It feels like a turning point in regards to how 119 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 2: people looked at pharmaceutical companies. I think it was really 120 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 2: like a sentinel event in that, Like I think doctors 121 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 2: were always skeptical of pharmaceutical companies. We still are, but 122 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: I think that was when people started to become cynical. 123 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: That change started. It's because of what happened with Viox 124 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 2: and VIAX. 125 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: I think it's also important, Like Vias, the scandal hits 126 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: kind of right as you know, before we're really starting 127 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: to realize what has gone down with the h with 128 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: the prescription painkiller epidemic, like when that's starting to really 129 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: take off and we start to realize how fucked up 130 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: some of what Purdue did. And so this one two punch, 131 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: it really is responsible. I think that's very salient what 132 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: you said. It's really responsible for a lot of I mean, 133 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: for like RFK is about to be the director of 134 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: Health and Human Services right, Like it has a lot 135 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: to do with that, because this is hard for people 136 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: to imagine, Like folks my age, I have always grown 137 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: up with big Pharma being like the devil, right in 138 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: part because like as soon as I turned eighteen nineteen, 139 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: I was hanging out with a lot of hippies, but 140 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: in part because like there were a lot of like 141 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: really really high body count pharmaceutical company scandals, and it 142 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: is hard for some people to remember that, like, pharmaceutical 143 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: companies used to be very popular and well regarded in 144 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: a lot of cases, in part because the generation, the 145 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: generation that was kind of running the world in the 146 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties had largely lived through like and we're 147 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: still close to Oh, polio is this nightmare that just 148 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: sweeps through and devastates like a generation. You know, you 149 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: have these flues and then suddenly you have half as 150 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: many friends after the flu passes and that stops being 151 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: a thing. And they're really the first generation you know, 152 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: kind of the later boomers that didn't have to deal 153 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: with that, but we're close enough to it to like 154 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: really appreciate, like, Wow, medical science did us as solid. 155 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, And we've drifted just far enough from that now 156 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: that people have forgotten and revising whole parts of history. 157 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: And I mean part of the problem is that shit 158 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: like the Vox scandal and like the produe pharmaceutical scandals 159 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: are closer to us than for example, fucking people being 160 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: an iron lungs or whatever. 161 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 3: You know. 162 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 1: Recency bias is a hell of a thing. But since 163 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: time immemorial, mankind has struggled against a terrible and implacable enemy, pain. 164 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: Luckily for us, mother nature has provided a perfect painkiller, opium, 165 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: that could be used as the basis for a variety 166 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: of excellent medicines that really do exactly what they say 167 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: they're going to do. Unfortunately, these medicines come with a downside, 168 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: which is that when you start taking them, you might 169 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: not ever want to stop taking them. For some people, 170 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: this destroys their life and take a sip of my 171 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: cratem tea. And since all the all the health cops 172 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: out there don't like people pill popping, like doctor House 173 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: even though he made it look incredibly sexy. Did he. 174 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: Hate that show? 175 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: Oh man, you're not not a house fan. Huh No, 176 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: it's just so ridiculous. 177 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 2: I mean, all of those shows, Scrubs is the only 178 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: one that's watchable for me. 179 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: Scrubs. Really yeah, I mean I did rewatch. I like 180 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: to imagine that the movie Platoon is like a like 181 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: the the what you might call it the prequel, the prequel. 182 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: Toy said it. 183 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why doctor Cox is the way he is. 184 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: He had to spend that night hiding under his friend's 185 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: bodies in a trench line. You had to watch Willem 186 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: Dafoe die. Spoilers for the movie Platoon, which is older 187 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: than most of you, might be illder than me. I 188 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: don't remember when Blagin came out anyway. So because of 189 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, health cops don't like people becoming horrible pill 190 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: addicts and destroying their lives. There's a market, a massive 191 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: market for anyone who could create a thing that is 192 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: an effective painkiller that doesn't also inspire people to break 193 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: into cars for drug money. Right, there's a lot of 194 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: money and a painkiller that does not have the kind 195 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: of abuse potential that opiates have. A Ceda medaphin was 196 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: discovered back in the eighteen eighties, but it took us 197 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: intol the nineteen forties to actually figure out how to 198 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: use it as a drug. And for reasons that are 199 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: more complex than it's really worth getting into. Because of 200 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: how it was discovered, a ceda medaphin could never be 201 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: patented right, which means pharmaceutical companies are not super attracted 202 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: to a ceda medaphin right because like, well, you know, 203 00:10:58,200 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: you can't only sell it for so much of every 204 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: one can make the damn thing. This meant that pharmaceutical 205 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: companies had to get creative marketing it in order to 206 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: make it profitable. As a result, tailand All became a 207 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: foundational part of the marketing drugs story. McNeil, the company 208 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: that started selling acid of metaphine in the US, initially 209 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: framed it as a painkiller for children. And the way 210 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: the ad campaign that they use is very weird for 211 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: some reason, and I've never found out why, but for 212 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: unclear reasons, they had a huge number of toy fire 213 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: trucks and the way that they first sold Thailand all 214 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: was they like stuffed fire trucks to the brim with 215 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: pills of tailan All and like made that. That was 216 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: their marketing ploy to like get little parents to buy 217 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: tilant All for their small show. 218 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: Always love fire trucks. Kids love Thailand All too. They 219 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: love their Tilan Hall, they love their living damage, and 220 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: they love their fire trucks. This is a thing about kids. 221 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 1: This is why I'm going to try to make the 222 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: chief Christmas toy of this season the little Doctor House 223 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: pill popper set where because kids, you can take as 224 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: much tilt All as you want. 225 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: Right, you'll be like a big cane. That's dispenser, right, 226 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: and that's your little house toy for kids. 227 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: Takes your little house toy for kids. Yeah, now this 228 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: worked better than any it had any right to work. 229 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: Advertising was easier back then. I imagine today if you 230 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: tried to sell parents on a chat, which is like 231 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: a firetruck Philip Bills, I don't know this would make 232 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: me feel good about any of this, But you have 233 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: to remember so jaded. 234 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: Now that's a problem. We're jaded. 235 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: We're jaded, and like, prior to Thailand All, the chief 236 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: method of dealing with pain for small children was to 237 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: give them a spoonful of heroin and hope they woke 238 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: up the next day right like. They literally sold it 239 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: as a cough medicine for children. So the fire truck 240 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: plan worked well. It worked so well that McNeil gets 241 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: bought by Johnson and Johnson. And that's actually when it 242 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: gets the name thailand All. McNeil's not selling it under 243 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: tiland All Johnson and Johnson, which, for whatever reason is 244 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: a great name. I don't know why. Doesn't make much 245 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: sense to me. Easier remember, Yeah, So, in subsequent decades, 246 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: tailand All was found to be useful in numerous medical 247 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: applications as a painkiller, a fever reducer, and about a 248 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,479 Speaker 1: million other things. It was joined in the mild painkiller 249 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: category by Bear's aspirin, which had its roots in herbal 250 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: medications that had been used by peoples around the world 251 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: since time immemorial. The Assyrians and Sumerians had actually been 252 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: using willow leaves as treatments for various ailments, and a 253 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: variety of plants containing sallasitic acid have been used in 254 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: similar ways all over the globe. So Aceta metaphine and 255 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: aspirin both quickly became foundational pieces of any medicine cabinet, 256 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: but they weren't perfect. One issue that both painkillers had 257 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: is that they could interact with other drugs or just 258 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: interact badly with certain patients to cause substantial stomach distress. 259 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: In the most severe cases, this could result in stomach 260 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: ulcers and sometimes life threatening stomach ulcers. So, you know, 261 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: this is one of these problems, is like you want 262 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: to be able to give people as much of this 263 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: as they need because it's you know, non adict diven 264 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: helps with a lot of things, but there's some hard 265 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: limits based on what this does to people's stomachs well 266 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: and livers. 267 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 2: I mean menafin, Yeah, you know, that's worldwide one of 268 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 2: the biggest causes of liver failure from people taking too 269 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 2: much a cedum, menaphin, and and then yeah, these other 270 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: nonstroidal anti inflammatory drugs. They're the kind of thing that 271 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 2: make me a gastro introologist have to go in the 272 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: middle of the night to go put a scope into 273 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 2: someone's stomach because they're bleeding a ton in the setting 274 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: of you know, somebody's who's swallowed too much advil or 275 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: something like a leave or something. 276 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that probably doesn't didn't make it 277 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: as much into my research, just because in the seventies 278 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: they didn't have as much data on that made sure 279 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: they all they're all focused at least on the ulcers. 280 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, like the there's a there's a great bluegrass 281 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: song called codeine with the lyrics Codeine, Codeine, You're the 282 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: nicest thing I've seen for a while. And if you 283 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: know anything about codine, it's the worst of the painkillers 284 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: to get high on, which makes the song better because 285 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: if you are the kind of person for whom like 286 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: codeine is the nicest thing you've ever encountered, your life 287 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: has been a hard life. 288 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: Yes, you have had a bad light. 289 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: So by the late twentieth century, pharmaceutical researchers had started 290 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: poking around both compounds to try to find ways to 291 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: create new variants that didn't have any of those downsides. 292 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: They called these hypothetical medications super aspirins, because research pharmacologists 293 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: aren't great at naming things terrible, terrible, terrible. The quest 294 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: for a super aspirin seems to have really started in 295 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one when a gaggle of British researchers, I 296 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: think that's how you term a group of researchers tried 297 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: to unravel the mystery of why aspirin and thailand all work. Again, 298 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: we knew these things were good painkillers, and we knew 299 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: they did other stuff. The method of action was unclear 300 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: to us at this point, which is a startling amount 301 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: of the time. True with drugs. There's a lot of 302 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: medications you might be on that the doctors don't precisely 303 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: know why it does what it does. We have somebody, 304 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: but like a. 305 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: Lot of this is still being you want to know. Yeah, 306 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: with a lot of things we do in medicine that 307 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 2: we yeah, were we just they seem to work, it doesn't. 308 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: It definitely helps. We're not sure why. But in this case, 309 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: the research research board fruit. As author Tom NeSSI describes 310 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: in his excellent book Poison Pills quote, when an injury 311 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: takes place in the body, chemicals known as prostaglandins rush 312 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: into the wound site to deal with the swelling, heat, 313 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: and pain. Prostaglandins have important functions for human well being. 314 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: They play a part in ovulation, to protect the stomach 315 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: from acids and to ensure that blood clots normally. The 316 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: latter effect explains why asprom reduces heart disease. It prevents 317 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: clumps of blood from forming that can potentially block an artery. 318 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: Prostaglandins actually make nerve endings more sensitive to pain. N 319 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,359 Speaker 1: s A I, d's in, SAIS and insetes. 320 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 321 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: Insades reduce the production of prostaglandin and thereby relieve the 322 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: pain associated with swelling and soreness. Unfortunately, in the process 323 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: of doing so, they irritate the stomach. Sometime after this discovery, 324 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: scientists found that a substance called cyclooxygenase or COX, was 325 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: produced as part of the mobilization of prostaglandin and was 326 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: the enzyme that actually controlled pain and inflammation. 327 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: You're doing a fantastic job, by the way, a moment, 328 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: you're doing a really good You didn't call it Cox, 329 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 2: by the way, Cox. 330 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to because doctor Cox. 331 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, in his honor. But this is interesting. I 332 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: didn't expect I was going to be getting this like 333 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 2: trip down medical school, like memory lane. This is fantastic. 334 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 2: You're doing great. 335 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: We try to be complete. Also, doctor Cox isn't born 336 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: on the fourth of July, which you can consider a 337 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: stealth sequel to Platoon if you assume that Williem Dafoe 338 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: actually survived his injuries in Platoon? 339 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 2: Was he in. 340 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: He's the crazy vet in Mexico that fucking Tom Cruise 341 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: meets when they're both like doing drugs and hanging out 342 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: with prostitutes after losing their legs. Yeah, it's great, oh Man, 343 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: that movie rules. So these researchers began to theorize that 344 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: COX might include an additional substance that was separately the 345 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: cause for stomach irritation. If someone could find an isolate 346 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: said substance, it might allow for the creation of a 347 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: super aspirin. But no one even knew if this theoretical 348 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: substance was real, and pharmaceutical companies didn't exactly feel an 349 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: immediate urge to jump on the matter because they had 350 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: no idea if this was even a thing. Fast forward 351 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: to nineteen ninety A pharmacologist named Needleman gets close to 352 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: isolating the COX enzyme that he believes is causing all 353 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: of the problems he hasn't actually doesn't actually find it, 354 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: but he's confident enough in its existence for reasons that 355 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: I'm sure makes sense to biochemists that he gives it 356 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: a name Cox. 357 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: Two. 358 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: Research goes on, and in July of nineteen ninety two, 359 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: several teams of researchers in Montreal announced that they have 360 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: isolated two enzymes COX two and one, of which COX 361 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: two seems to be the causal agent behind the side 362 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: effects in SAIDs provoke in some patients. Right, So nineteen 363 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: ninety two they found finally this thing they've been looking 364 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: for for like twenty years. Right, this is the reason 365 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: they believe why your aspirin or whatever can cause stomach olcers. 366 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: So the researchers used that if you can find a 367 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,479 Speaker 1: medication that blocks COS two and you compound it with 368 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: like a painkiller with a seat of metaphine or whatever, 369 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: then you'd have a super aspirin capable of being prescribed 370 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 1: much more often to even more people. Aspirin sales at 371 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: that point are already like fifty billion tablets per year, 372 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 1: So the amount of money on table for the first 373 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical company to figure this out is mind boggling, because 374 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: then you get to patent it. Then you are the 375 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: only one that has the aspirin that doesn't cause stomach ulcers, right, 376 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 1: and for like whatever twenty years, you're the only one 377 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: who gets to sell that shit. That's so much fucking money, right, Like, yeah. 378 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 2: It's one of the most commonly used medications in the world. 379 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: Yes, or this is like an unfathomable fortune. We're talking 380 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: like an oil and gas industry level fortune is on 381 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: the table here, and so a fucking race begins, right, 382 00:19:58,119 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: And the two major companies that are going to wind 383 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: up really throwing their money, throwing their hats into the 384 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: table and to get into the super aspirin ring are 385 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: our old friend Pfizer and our new friend Merk. Now, today, again, 386 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: any pharmaceutical company you mentioned, people tend to say, like, 387 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: fuck these guys. But in the late nineteen eighties and 388 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: early nineties, people did not feel that way about Merk. 389 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: They were very much considered to be one of the 390 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: good guys. Now, I know that kind of sounds crazy, 391 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: but I want to read a quote from an article 392 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: by David Colp and Isabelle Berry in the Journal of 393 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: Civil Rights and Economic Development. In its missions value statement, 394 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: the company stresses that its business is preserving and improving 395 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: human life. Merk's mission statement continues, we value above all 396 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: the ability to serve everyone who can benefit from the 397 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: appropriate use of our products and services. Throughout its history, 398 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: Mirk has often lived up to its state admission. In 399 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, after streptomycin was developed by a Merk scientist, 400 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: Merck gave up its patent protection since it believed the 401 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: drug was too important a medical breakthrough to keep to itself. 402 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: Other companies were allowed to produce streptomycin, and Merk lost 403 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: potential profits. The nineteen eighties, when Merk found a cure 404 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: for river blindness caused by a parasitic worm. The company 405 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: had given away, free of charge, forty million pillars a 406 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: year to African nations to treat and cure this. So 407 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: Merks seems pretty good. Coming into the nineties, You're like, hey, 408 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: maybe there's a company that I actually believes what it 409 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: is they put. They gave up money, you know, a 410 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: lot of it, so that sounds pretty great. But coming 411 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: into the nineties, Murk is also staring down the barrel 412 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: of a big problem a lot of its massive wealth, 413 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: because this is a very wealthy company coming into the nineties. 414 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: Was based on a pair of cholesterol drugs, zocore and Preachol, 415 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: which were both about to lose their twenty year patent 416 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: protection starting in the early two thousands, so not yet 417 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: in about a decade, but a Decade's not a lot 418 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: of time in terms of like researching a new medicine. Right, 419 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: If you've only got a decade or so over your 420 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: two big profit engines are going to. 421 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 4: Time from really to get to market. Yeah, you got 422 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 4: to start cooking. Yeah, you got to start moving. In 423 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 4: addition to that, five of their best selling medications, including pepsid, 424 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 4: were set to lose patent protection even soon in ninety nine, 425 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 4: so they are looking at a looming, very serious problem 426 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 4: for their profitability. 427 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 2: This is such a recurring theme with pharmaceutical companies. I 428 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 2: just did an episode about a medication called Zygris, which 429 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: was like, it sounds awesome, It sounds awesome. It's this 430 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: medication that was touted as like this new breakthrough therapy 431 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 2: for sepsis, and it was super exciting, ended up falling 432 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 2: apart for a lot of different reasons and being withdrawn 433 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: and end up being a big marketing scandal in my opinion. 434 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, it all started 435 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: because they were losing their patent on their big like 436 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: sellings and medications like the one, The things that were 437 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 2: making them tons of money were about to run out 438 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: and they needed a new like cash stream as quick 439 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: as possible. So things started happening probably faster than they 440 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 2: should have. 441 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's like that is the story 442 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: here as the story a lot of the time right 443 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: where these and I don't think this is a bad idea, 444 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: Like the idea that drugs eventually age out to get 445 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: generic is like kind of necessary in order to in 446 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: our system at least in order to make it even 447 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: have a chance of being affordable for some medications. But 448 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: it does it leads to this as well. 449 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 2: I don't know. 450 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: Again, we don't need to go on another single payer 451 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: healthcare rant, but like we have, so there's so many 452 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: little things that are fucked up about, like even the 453 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: things that seem like they make sense that also lead 454 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: to fucked up outcomes. And because of how much money 455 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: is at stake in these basins and how expensive it 456 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: is to be a pharmaceutical company, right, Like, it's not 457 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: cheap and most of the medications that they like, one 458 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: of the things you have to accept as a pharma 459 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: company is that most of the things you try to 460 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,239 Speaker 1: make into a medicine aren't going to work, right, Like, 461 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: that's just and that's kind kind of the story. Here 462 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: is a medication that if they had done more, spent 463 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: more time, they would have realized this was not a 464 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: viable product. But they've got shareholders to please. 465 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: Right, and when the money start to shift from research 466 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 2: and development in these companies to marketing, which it does 467 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: more and more, and I. 468 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: Mean really happening in the nineties. 469 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: Yeah right, I'm assuming that's that their problem here, That's a. 470 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,239 Speaker 1: Big part of it. Yes, so you know, murk is 471 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: coming into the nineties, not quite a five alarm fire yet, 472 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: but definitely like a serious situation. And super Aspirins seems 473 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: like it might be the salt solution to their problems 474 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: and maybe even the key to greater profits than ever before. 475 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: And speaking of greater profits than ever before, you know, 476 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: who's making money like they've never made money. 477 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm the people who deserve to the people are 478 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 2: the people who sponsored this podcast. They're the ones that 479 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 2: deserve the most of the money. 480 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: That's right. The products and services that support this podcast 481 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: are literally the only ethical people in capitalism. And you 482 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: can just trust them. Give them your wallet, give your kids, 483 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, hand with children over to our sponsors. They'll 484 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: take care of them, they'll raise them as their own. 485 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: You know better than better than we would, better than 486 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: you would. Yeah, exactly, you know, just trust them and 487 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: we're back. I didn't mean to imply that none of 488 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,719 Speaker 1: you were good parents. It's just that our sponsors are 489 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: incredible parents, you know. 490 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 2: That much better. 491 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: They've never they've never yelled at me, never yelled at me, 492 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,959 Speaker 1: never even spanked me, and I deserved it sometimes. So 493 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: you paid money for that sort of thing, I have. No, 494 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: we don't even saying shit like that. The subredit's gotta 495 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: get real uncomfortable, very fast. Okay, So super Aspirin seems 496 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: like it could be the solution to their to Merk's problems. 497 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety four, a new CEO takes over at Merk, 498 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: and this is we were just talking about the shift 499 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: from R and D to marketing. This is perfectly emblematic 500 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: of that because Merk's new CEO is a guy named 501 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: Raymond gil Martin. Now, the previous CEO, Raymond is an 502 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: NBA from Harvard, right, which means he doesn't know anything 503 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: about anything but making making money in the most sketchy 504 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: ways possible. Whereas the previous CEO of Merk had been 505 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,239 Speaker 1: doctor Roy Vagelos, an actual medical scientist with a research background. 506 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: Very famous. 507 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: So yes, yes, yeah, so R goes from famous and 508 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: widely respected medical researcher as their CEO to a guy 509 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: with an MVA NBA from Harvard. 510 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. The Vagelos Award is like this award that's still 511 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 2: given out to like people who are like doing humanitarian 512 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: work for like in the pharmaceutical world. So yeah, like 513 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 2: this is a major shift, a major shift away from 514 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: somebody who was I think ostensibly a very good person 515 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 2: from all the towns, a very good person, good researcher. Yeah, 516 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 2: to something very different. 517 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe maybe the answer is, if you're going to 518 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: be the CEO of a pharmaceutical company, you should have 519 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: like watched a sick child die at a hospital. Like 520 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: I don't mean to be blunt, blunt, but it seems 521 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: like it leads you to do things like give up 522 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: patents on life saving medication. 523 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: For rotation, a rotation in the hospital. 524 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: I keep thinking about, like fucking the polio vaccine guy 525 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: who he was, like, I think his direct his direct 526 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: question quote when asked if he was going to patent 527 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: it was like would you patent the sun? 528 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 2: Yeah? 529 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: Sulk, yeah, real, real, real, g real Chad so Raymond's 530 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: career up to that point this is the business guy. 531 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: See new CEO Mark had included eight years as a 532 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: consultant for Arthur D. Little, which lists as run of 533 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: its great achievements, which is it. It's like Mackenzie kind of. 534 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: It's a consulting firm and it listed as one of 535 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: its great achievements the privatization of British rail So those 536 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: of you over in the UK, sure you love this guy. Also, 537 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: there was this time that they used a bucket of 538 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: sow's ears to make a silk purse. I don't know 539 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: why this is listed as an achievement of the Arthur D. 540 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: Little company, but it is. He worked as the CEO 541 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: at a medical device company after that, until he was 542 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: hired by Merck as their first outside CEO for the 543 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: express purpose of seeing them through the looming patent cliff scenario. 544 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: So he was brought in as kind of like an 545 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: emergency guy right now. It was Raymond who decided that 546 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: Merk's future would be in super aspirin. Alongside their chief scientist, 547 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: doctor Edward Skolnik, he launched a crash program to bring 548 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: a cox to inhibitor pain medication to market. The name 549 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: they picked for the wonder drug that did not yet exist, 550 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: but they were going to have that they were going 551 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: to hang the company's future on was Viox. 552 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: Now. 553 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: Time was of the essence here. Doctor Needleman, the guy 554 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: who had failed to discover Cox two but had gone 555 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: ahead and named it anyway, worked at a company called 556 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 1: g D. Seerle which was a division of Monsanto and 557 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: was leading research into a new inside that would eventually 558 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: be called Celebrex. And while Celebrex was under development, Pfizer 559 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: bought Seerrel from Monsanto and started throwing money into Celebrex 560 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: as part of what was turning into a vicious competition 561 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: to be the first pharmaceutical company to bring one of 562 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: these new super aspirints to market. And there's probably a 563 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: lot to be said about Celebrex. I am not competent 564 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: to say it. I will say that it is currently 565 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: a medication that the FDA says there's not evidence of 566 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: significant harms for There is debate about that to this day. 567 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: But that's all I can say on the matter because 568 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: I'm not a not an expert on this. There are 569 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: some activists who are very angry that Celebrex is still 570 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: on the market. The FDA has said it's more or 571 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: less fine. That's where we are with Celebrex. 572 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the same family, Yes, and it does have 573 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 2: that comes with a warning on it that's more striking 574 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: than most other ensades. Yes, I know. Actually it's a 575 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 2: good question. I don't know how often it's used these days. 576 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: I assume it's pretty rare or not as often as 577 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: it was. 578 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: For sure. 579 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: It's one of those things where a few years ago 580 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: there was a very scary study about heart effect like 581 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: heart problems that it could cause, and then a few 582 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: years later there was a study that suggests like, well, no, 583 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: maybe we got that one wrong. Maybe it's no worse 584 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: than other drugs in this class. Again, that's all I 585 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: can really say about Celebres because I'm not qualified to 586 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: judge a medication that there's still a lot of debate over. 587 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: I don't have a lot more to add to it either, 588 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: But it feels like there's other ensades out there that, yes, 589 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 2: that we use a little frequently. It seem a little safer. Yeah. 590 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, But what you need to know is that Pfiser 591 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: is putting there, is putting their money into Celebres after 592 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: they acquire Merle, and you know vox is going to 593 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: be the attempt made by Mark to do the same thing. 594 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: So throughout the mid nineteen Ninetieskvet Merk scientists worked on VOCs, 595 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: rushing it through stages of medical testing, harassed by the 596 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: knowledge that any delay or bad finding. And when I 597 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: say bad, not in a scientific sense. It's not bad 598 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: scientifically to find out a drug doesn't work, but bad 599 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: for the company if this drug doesn't work because they're 600 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: on a timetable, would stop them from beating Pfizer and 601 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: unfortunately forever. There were signs right from the beginning that 602 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: viox might be dangerous. The first evidence of this was 603 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: presented in the mid nineteen nineties by doctor Garrett Fitzgerald, 604 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: a Merck consultant who was also professor of cardiovascular medicine 605 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: at the University of Pennsylvania. He warned the company that 606 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: Vyax might harm the walls of the blood vessels protecting 607 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: the human heart. I'm going to quote again from the 608 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: book Poison Pills by Tom NeSSI, which, if you're looking 609 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: for like a really good exploration of how a pharmaceutical 610 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: company does evil, Poison Pills is very well written. He 611 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: suggested that Mark set up a series of experiments to 612 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: test this theory, few of them wherever performed. Other scientists 613 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: cautioned that yox was related to kidney damage an increase 614 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: in blood pressure that could be linked to heart problems. 615 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Fitzgerald also found similar problems with the drug in 616 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: the same class as vyax, called Celebres, made by rival 617 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: drug company Pfiser. Like Merk, Pfeiser denied the finding of 618 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: any cardiovascular problems with its drug, but cleverly began its 619 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: own campaign to portray viox as the more dangerous of 620 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: the compounds. That's smart at this point and victually warns 621 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: them the drug is not on market. He is trying 622 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: to stop it from getting to market by saying, like, 623 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: there's some real evidence. This is sketchy, you should carry 624 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: it more studies, and Murk is just kind of like, 625 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: but what if we didn't. 626 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 2: It's like when you've. 627 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: Been like spending like crazy all month, and you know, 628 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: you probably like you might be running down to the limit, 629 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: but you're just like going to the grocery store hoping 630 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: that like your card works this one more time or something. 631 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: So now, at this point, there was no hard evidence 632 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: of harm to the human heart, in large part because 633 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: Merk had refused to do the studies that doctor Fitzgerald advised. 634 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: This changed in nineteen ninety six, when an internal Mirk 635 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: study showed that people who took viox in high doses 636 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: suffered more heart problems than people given a placebo. A 637 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: MIMO was issued internally that noted the treatment period was 638 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: six weeks versus placebo. The initial dose of viox was 639 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: one hundred and seventy five milligrams, but in mid study 640 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: the dose was lowered to one hundred and twenty five milligrams. 641 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: Adverse events of most concern were in the cardiovascular system 642 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: i e. Heart attack, stable angina, rapid fallen hemoglobin and 643 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: hematopec crip, dangerous blood problems and some subjects. So that's bad. 644 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: Those are all really bad. Yeah, results, that's yeah. 645 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 2: You're almost officially a doctor because that is correct. That 646 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: is the appropriate diagnosis is that it's all not good, 647 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: not good, not good, not good. 648 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: It is important to underline the severity of these results, though. 649 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: These extremely serious side effects were present after just a 650 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: few weeks of medication for doses that were just about 651 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: twice the approved amount for treating acute pain, which was 652 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: fifty milligrams now twice sounds like a lot, but when 653 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: we are talking about the way people use medicines, it's 654 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: really not. People take way more, specially pain medicine than 655 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: they ought to. 656 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: It keeps me in business. Yeah, people do this. This 657 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 2: is like almost You don't even have to take it 658 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 2: more than is recommended to run into problems, because sometimes 659 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: people only take a little and they run into problems 660 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: in the GI system for example, or other issues that 661 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: kid needed that can be affected for the heart. But 662 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 2: it is a sole underlying known fact that whatever we 663 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: think people are going to be taking, likely it'll be. 664 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: More, and that is why it's standard in tests like 665 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 1: the one they were conducting, actually to test ten times 666 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: the effective acute dose when doing studies like this to 667 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: check for side effects, which they didn't do because they 668 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: knew that the results would be even worse. One doctor 669 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: who analyzed these results noted, I recall very clearly many 670 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: occasions where MERK scientists and doctors working with MERK were 671 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: claiming that viox was safe as placebo, which we've already 672 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: seen it's not. 673 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 2: Now. 674 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: The reality is that results like this were a big 675 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: warning sign and should have been taken as evidence that 676 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: biax might not be viable as a medication and certainly 677 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: needed more testing, But Merk went full speed ahead. In 678 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: November of nineteen ninety eight, they asked the FDA to 679 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: approve viviocs after testing the drug on fifty four hundred patients. 680 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: They bragged that they had conducted eight different studies which 681 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: had shown owned biox's efficacy. Now, this is where we 682 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: get into a complicated and uncomfortable topic, medical studies, and 683 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: why they often don't work the way that they should. 684 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: In theory, the process of conducting medical studies should identify 685 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: dangers in new drugs and accurately measure their efficacy. But 686 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: theory envisions a situation in which drugs are researched by 687 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: disinterested parties who have no vested interest in anything but 688 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: the truth. The reality is that studies are often funded 689 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: by pharmaceutical companies who, like Merk, might be sweating the 690 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: arrival of an upcoming patent cliff and headed by a 691 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: new CEO who lacks the same commitment to medical ethics 692 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: as his precursor. I'm going to quote now from an 693 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: article on this in the Union of Concerned Scientists to 694 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: increase the likelihood of FDA approval for its anti inflammatory 695 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: and arthritis drug bios. Merk used flawed methodologies biased towards 696 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: predetermined results to exaggerate the drug's private positive effects. Internal 697 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 1: documents made public in litigation revealed that a Merk marketing 698 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: team had developed a strategy called Advantage Assessment of Differences 699 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: between bios and to ascertain gastrointestinal tolerability and effectiveness to 700 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: skew the results of clinical trials in the drugs favor. 701 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: As part of the strategy, scientists manipulated the trial design 702 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 1: by comparing to the drug to neproxin, a pain reliever 703 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: sold under brand names such as a Leave, rather than 704 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: to a placebo. The scientists then highlighted the results that 705 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 1: neproxyen decreased the risk of heart attack by eighty percent 706 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: and downplayed the results that viax increased the rate the 707 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: risk of heart attack by four hundred percent. This misleading 708 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: presentation of the evidence made it looked like the proxen 709 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: was protecting patients from heart attacks and that vax only 710 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: looked risky by comparison. So instead of comparing this drug 711 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: to a placebo in which it would have been like Wow, 712 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: the rate of heart attacks is much higher. They compared 713 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: it to a drug that reduced the risk of heart 714 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: attacks and were like, well, of course people have more 715 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: heart attacks on this drug. This other drug reduces heart attacks, 716 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean this is danger. Like that's so 717 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: fucking shady. 718 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 2: Is It's a bit tricky how they're doing it too, 719 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 2: because you know, so far, a lot of what they 720 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 2: have done sounds very I mean it sounds sound from 721 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: a distance. You know, the whole idea of like looking 722 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 2: at COX two inhibitors, like looking at medications specifically for 723 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: this and comparing it, you know, say, hey, look at 724 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 2: least we're better than the other medications to some degree. 725 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 2: From a high from your way back vantage point, it 726 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 2: all makes sense. It's when you start to like look 727 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 2: a little bit more closely that it's questionable, especially given 728 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: that they seem to know early on that there was 729 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 2: high risk of these cardiovascular injuries and that the whole 730 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 2: narrative is being shifted to try and take focus away 731 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: from that. Yeah, it's it's all. This is why it's 732 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 2: a difference between marketing and between like a scientist running 733 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 2: the program. Yeah. 734 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's like that's really the whole story here, right. 735 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: So Merks fuckery extended to the hiring of ghostwriters to 736 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: write scientific articles reporting on clinical trials of bias to 737 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: try and convince doctors and regulators that the medication was safe. 738 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: Internal Mirk documents later revealed that in sixteen out of 739 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: twenty papers reporting on early VYAX clinical trials, a Merk 740 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,240 Speaker 1: employee was listed as the lead author of the first draft, 741 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: but in the published versions credit for authorship was given 742 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: to an outside academic to continue in that from that 743 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: piece by the Union of Concerned Scientists. In one draft 744 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: of a Yox research study that did not yet have 745 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: a prominent outside name attached, MIRK officials listed the lead 746 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: author only as external author question mark. A MERK scientist 747 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: was also found to have removed the evidence of free 748 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: heart attacks among patients in a data set from the 749 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: results presented some great stuff. 750 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 2: I mean, in wonder what numbers were in that paper, 751 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 2: but removing three can make a huge difference. 752 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, especially if you're not talking about a huge study. 753 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 2: You know, did say anything about how many people were 754 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 2: in that study? 755 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 1: I you know what, I'm sure I could have looked 756 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: into it, but I did not. 757 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering if in these studies they were talking 758 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 2: about the rates of ulcer bleed and gastric bleeding as well, 759 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 2: because I mean that's o sensibly the whole reason that. 760 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: They're doing it was the whole thing that advantage was 761 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: supposed to show, right, is that it reduced the rate 762 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 1: of like peptic ulcer bleeding and stuff. And yeah, just 763 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: the whole the fact that we have drafts of them 764 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: just being like, we'll figure out who the author of 765 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: this piece is later, once we find a science, once 766 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: we find an outside doctor who you know, wants some cash. 767 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: And a lot of times these aren't direct bribes. These 768 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: are like, okay, you'll stick your name on this and 769 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 1: then this research project you want, we'll get a little 770 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: bit of funding from a from from a Papa merk. 771 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 2: You know. Not even just that these are all being 772 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,359 Speaker 2: published in decent journals. I'm sure that just people want 773 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 2: to be in good journals. They want to have another 774 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 2: publication and you know, New Journal and Medicine or the 775 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:45,720 Speaker 2: Lancet or whatever. 776 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: And you you also have to remember people think a 777 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: lot of people think this is the next big miracle drugs. 778 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, you want you want to you want to 779 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: have a you want to have a little bit of 780 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: play in that, right of course. 781 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 2: Uh so. Yeah. 782 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,240 Speaker 1: The worst piece of evidence against BIOS of this peerod 783 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,760 Speaker 1: came out the same year Merk asked for FDA approval 784 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. Merk Study zero ninety involved nine hundred 785 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: and seventy eight patients and showed that people on BIOS 786 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: experienced serious cardiovascular events six times as often as patients 787 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: taking a different drug or a placebo for arthritis pain. 788 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: Merks shelled the study and never published it. Later that 789 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: same year, a group of medical researchers at the University 790 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania and by the way, thanks to that doctor 791 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: we named earlier, U of pen really tried to stop 792 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: biox from being a thing, published a study that showed 793 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: that COX two inhibitors might interfere with other enzymes that 794 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: helped prevent heart disease. Warnings were sent to Mercandfiser, who 795 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: quickly shoved them off into the circular file and kept 796 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: right on begging the FDA to say yes. And say yes, 797 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 1: the FDA did. They approved bios for use as a 798 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: painent killer in results in adults in nineteen ninety nine. 799 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: A minstrel pain medication and an anti inflammatory for people 800 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: with osteoarthritis. Despite approving the drug, FDA reviewer doctor Villalba 801 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 1: warned in his memorandum that there was evidence suggesting vyax 802 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: caused more frequent cardiovascular events and patients. So Vox goes 803 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: to market, it immediately becomes a best seller. Celebrex also 804 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: goes to market. It drives massive profits for Pfizer. And 805 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: this is in spite of the fact that particularly viox 806 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: is not great at I mean, neither drug is really 807 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: all that good at fighting pain. And I'm going to 808 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 1: quote from the New York Times here. When studies on 809 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: viox and rex became available in nineteen ninety eight nineteen 810 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: ninety nine, many doctors were disappointed. Neither drug alleviated pain 811 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: any better than the old medications, and the drugs cost 812 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: close to three dollars a pill over the counter. Pain relievers, 813 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: in contrast, cost pennies a dose, and by the way, 814 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: they weren't all that much better at preventing ulcers. Some 815 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 1: studies suggest like viox was no better at preventing ulcers, 816 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: although that seems to be unclear now. Analysts say that 817 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: the success of viox was critical to MRK. The patents 818 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,879 Speaker 1: on those popular mark drugs Aspire started expiring in two 819 00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 1: thousand and two thousand and one, which opened them up 820 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: to eric competition, and Vyox comes through and is I 821 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 1: mean almost immediately billions of dollars a year in profits 822 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,240 Speaker 1: for the company. Michael krint Savage, a drug industry analyst 823 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: at the investment bank Raymond Jameson Associates, says vax was 824 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: Merk savior. It's as simple as that, like he puts 825 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 1: it down, as the company might have gone on or 826 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: under at least, you know, probably been acquired if it 827 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: hadn't been for a Yox. 828 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I remember at the time it was huge. 829 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 2: It was I had never seen a campaign like it 830 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 2: about that I remember. I think it was one of 831 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 2: the first times I remember really having like being conscious 832 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 2: of like how much a medicine was being marketed, you know. 833 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 2: And you know, I think it's one of these medicines 834 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 2: where it's like, you know, maybe five to ten percent 835 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 2: of the people who are using it maybe had some benefit, 836 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 2: real benefit where they maybe it did help them from 837 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 2: a gastric ulcer perspective, maybe they didn't have the option 838 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 2: of taking another medicine. But for the other ninety percent 839 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 2: of people there taking it, it wasn't necessary for them. 840 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 2: It wasn't something that they needed, and it was just 841 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 2: increasing their risk of heart attack or stroke. And I 842 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 2: think that this is I bet you. I mean, you 843 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 2: probably know this, but I bet up to this point 844 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 2: this was the most that ever been spent on direct marketing. 845 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and that is what we're actually about 846 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: to talk about is the marketing campaign, which surprise, surprise, 847 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: involves beloved figure skater Dorothy Hamill. 848 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 2: But I knew it. 849 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: Yes, she's the great monster in this in all of 850 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: our episodes, every episode we have ever done, Dorothy Hamill 851 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: and building into this. 852 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,319 Speaker 2: She's the fanos of the behind the Bastard's world. 853 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,720 Speaker 1: That's right. Joseph Stalin would never have accomplished his greatest 854 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: crimes without Dorothy Hamill's assistance. That's obvious though. Evil historians 855 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: have been talking about that for decades. Anyway, you know 856 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: who's not Dorothy Hamill. I don't know why I'm shitting 857 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: on Dorothy Hamill. None of this is really her fault. Anyway, 858 00:43:53,080 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: here's as we're back. Okay, so we're talking the viox 859 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: marketing campaign. How do you sell America on this drug 860 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,280 Speaker 1: that is going to get a decent percentage of America killed? 861 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 1: And the answer is figure skating superstar Dorothy Hamill. So yeah, 862 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: this is this is where the real villain of the 863 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: story comes into it. 864 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 2: The haircut is a problem for me. 865 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: I had Hamil's haircut. 866 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 2: My first girlfriend, The first girl that really smashed my 867 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 2: heart into like a billion pieces, scattered them across the globe. 868 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 1: Was Dorothy Hamill. That has really taking some strays in 869 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: this episode. 870 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 2: Just she had Dorothy Hamill's haircut. Oh, which I don't 871 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,319 Speaker 2: know why at the time didn't bother me, But so 872 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 2: now when I see that haircut, I'm like, oh, yeah, 873 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 2: that reminds. 874 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: Me of that that lost love. 875 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, painful, painful. So for those of you. 876 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: Who don't know what we're talking about, back in the 877 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, an incredible athlete named Dorothy Hamill became one 878 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: of the most famous people in the world. When she 879 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: was just nineteen. She performed at the nineteen seventy six 880 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: Innsbruck Olympics and won the gold. Time declared her America's 881 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: Sweetheart and as his customary for world class athletes, corporations 882 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: began offering her embarrassing piles of money to endorse their products. 883 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,800 Speaker 1: Hamil's first run as a famous person didn't go great. 884 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: She married Dean Martin's kid, and then he died in 885 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: a plane crash. She fell out with her coach. She 886 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: spent all of her money buying the ice capades, and 887 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: then wound up burning out and developing a bleeding ulcer. 888 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: She had another marriage that ended badly and wound up well, 889 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: not broke, you wouldn't say, but no longer rich, and 890 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: she suffered from a substantial amount of pain from a 891 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,280 Speaker 1: lifetime of pushing her body to athletic excess. The pain 892 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: was bad enough that at the worst Dorothy could no 893 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: longer even play with her daughter. Some days she could 894 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,919 Speaker 1: barely get out of bed. And then her doctor told 895 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 1: her to try biox. She would later claim that it 896 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,800 Speaker 1: was effectively a miracle cure for her, not only soothing 897 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: her pain, but bringing back her ability to perform on 898 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: the ice in a way she hadn't in years. In 899 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,880 Speaker 1: August of two thousand, Hamil made an appearance on Larry 900 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,879 Speaker 1: King Live with Caitlyn Jenner, and Jenner is also talking 901 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: about viox and this this. Jenner is also claiming that 902 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: like this this really helped her arthritis. She told the 903 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,279 Speaker 1: audience a heart wrenching story about loss and pain and 904 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 1: her miraculous return to the world of the living thanks 905 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: to Vyos quote. I just I felt old. I felt depressed, 906 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,800 Speaker 1: tired all the time. I mean, having chronic pain is exhausting. 907 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 1: And I got to the point this year I was 908 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: on tour and I couldn't skate, and so I went 909 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 1: to a doctor and we finally got to the bottom 910 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: of it, and my doctor prescribed VOX for me. And 911 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,439 Speaker 1: it's as if I've been given a new life. It's 912 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: just it's been amazing. I feel twenty years younger. I 913 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: don't look it, and I don't skate it, but I 914 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:42,080 Speaker 1: feel that way. 915 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 2: Was this when Larry King still had some credibility? 916 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he was big at this point. This is 917 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: like right around the turn of the century. He's still 918 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 1: a big, a major major. This is like before infomercial 919 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,279 Speaker 1: Larry Yes, yes, okay, and this is I mean, maybe 920 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: this is part of his downfall. But people still take 921 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: the show series and they take this very seriously. And 922 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,959 Speaker 1: to be clear, I'm not saying that, you know, even 923 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: Caitlin or or Hamilorthy were lying about their experiences on 924 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:16,000 Speaker 1: viox because some people did gain benefits of this. Yeah, 925 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: and you know, so I'm not doubting that. The problem 926 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: again is that a single person's having a good reaction 927 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: to a drug is not evidence that the drug is safe. 928 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 3: You know. 929 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 1: For example, I know some people in their seventies who 930 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: have been doing heroin for fifty straight years and are 931 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 1: and are fine. That doesn't mean heroin is safe. It 932 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: means some people are lucky, right, Yeah, or they afore 933 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: mentioned ninety year old women doing you know. 934 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 2: Those ancient people who do you get drugs and smokes 935 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 2: that you now with a. 936 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,400 Speaker 1: Little burning Man regionals, you run into a lot of 937 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: elderly people who have been doing drugs for forever. Some 938 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: of them are very good at it. I've been gas 939 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: stations sober for years now, Kava, that's Responlifornia sober. 940 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 2: But you can only get the things you buy at 941 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:06,600 Speaker 2: the gas station. 942 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: I don't mess with that marijuana. That shit's dangerous. I 943 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: just take those trucker yellow jackets that they give to 944 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: keep people driving long haul awake. You know, I don't 945 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,399 Speaker 1: know what's in them. They're big and yellow. That means 946 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: they're safe. Yeah, it's danger'd me red if it was dangerous. 947 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 1: They can't put dangerous drugs in a yellow and black 948 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: pill and call it yellow jackets and it doesn't mean dangerous. 949 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 950 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: So I never take more than like twelve in a day. Yeah, 951 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 1: thank god for yellow jackets. 952 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 2: I just some I sometimes don't know if you're kidding, 953 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,200 Speaker 2: and I just hope in my heart that you are. 954 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,680 Speaker 2: And I'm just going to pretend that this is all 955 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 2: part of a bit. 956 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,719 Speaker 1: I do the safe thing. I like, open the pill 957 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,359 Speaker 1: and I pour all the powder in the pill into 958 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:50,920 Speaker 1: a glass, and then I pour in a bunch of 959 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: my krateion into the glass, and then I add a 960 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,240 Speaker 1: banana for the potassium because your heart level. 961 00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 2: This level of detail is what bothers me. 962 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,200 Speaker 1: The more I don't like it's fine. It's mostly just 963 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,880 Speaker 1: B twelve in caffeine and god knows what else, because 964 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: there's absolutely no no agency that looks into what gets 965 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: put into substances that are sold in gas stations in 966 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 1: this country. 967 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 2: Oh my god, and what little oversight there is is 968 00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:18,359 Speaker 2: gonna be gone. 969 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: Yes, thanks gone, thank god. Look, RFK Junior might ban 970 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 1: the HPV vaccine, but we could get legal heroin. 971 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:33,400 Speaker 2: It's all one big, organized end of humanity cash grab 972 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,600 Speaker 2: the next couple of years. Any drug you want to 973 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,720 Speaker 2: get through is gonna get through god willing. 974 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 1: Look, if the world's ending, do you want heroin to 975 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:45,400 Speaker 1: not be legal? 976 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,560 Speaker 2: That's fair, But it's not gonna be heroin. It's gonna 977 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 2: be like, you know, blood pressure pills that the company 978 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,680 Speaker 2: just gets through and then it makes people's hearts explode, 979 00:49:58,080 --> 00:49:59,879 Speaker 2: and then the company will just say, hey, we're bank 980 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 2: and then they're fine, and then they just move on 981 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,160 Speaker 2: with their lives, and then people are going to be 982 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:04,919 Speaker 2: left in the wake. 983 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: Then no, you're right, they're going to ban prozac and 984 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,960 Speaker 1: replace it with like polar Bear liver pills. It's just 985 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 1: going to be a disaster. 986 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,120 Speaker 2: He was always doing research that in RFK. 987 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: He's always trying something new. So the fact that this 988 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,160 Speaker 1: beloved celebrity athlete has gone on Larry King and said 989 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,360 Speaker 1: exactly what viox PR would want her to say was 990 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,759 Speaker 1: a godsend. You know, that's the kind of pr no 991 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 1: money can buy. Although I have to tell you now 992 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,879 Speaker 1: that moment was in fact bought and paid for by 993 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,240 Speaker 1: MERK they had found out that Dorothy was a customer. 994 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: They had reached out to her with an idea and 995 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,319 Speaker 1: a pile of money. Her life story had been used 996 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 1: as the basis for an entire marketing campaign, and her 997 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,480 Speaker 1: appearance on Larry King was just the first step in 998 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,280 Speaker 1: launching it. Tom NeSSI writes the day after Dorothy Hamill's appearance, 999 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,400 Speaker 1: even Merks CEO Raymond gil Martin was smitten. He received 1000 00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,239 Speaker 1: heart written letters from arthritis sufferers saying they were going 1001 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,360 Speaker 1: to immediately ask their physicians for a viox. Gil Martin 1002 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,279 Speaker 1: personally congratulated the public relations department. One marketing executive wrote 1003 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 1: that with Dorothy telling our story, vyox sales were going 1004 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,160 Speaker 1: to soar and overtake celebrates and obsession within the. 1005 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,799 Speaker 2: You'll slipped into like your fifties radio announcer voice. You 1006 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,600 Speaker 2: kind of shifted to the nineties. I saw what you 1007 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 2: did there. 1008 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,000 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. I love it. So yeah, 1009 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,680 Speaker 1: patients are are coming in, They're begging doctors to write prescriptions. 1010 00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,279 Speaker 1: Doctors are going, well, shit, how bad could it be. 1011 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: It's basically just aspirin, you know, And a lot of 1012 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,160 Speaker 1: people are suddenly taking viox. Now the FDA does push 1013 00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,600 Speaker 1: back a little on this campaign because Dorothy's appearance on 1014 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,960 Speaker 1: Larry King counted as an ad and she had not 1015 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: mentioned that she was being paid by Merk, which you're 1016 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,840 Speaker 1: not supposed to do. They also had an issue that 1017 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 1: she was kind of basically saying she had not told 1018 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,319 Speaker 1: people that viox was extremely dangerous if you prescribed it 1019 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,800 Speaker 1: to patients with the history of bleeding ulcers. In fact, 1020 00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,960 Speaker 1: she had stated that she was taking it despite her 1021 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,880 Speaker 1: history of bleeding ulcers, which is kind of telling people 1022 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,120 Speaker 1: this is safe to say in the exact situation that 1023 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 1: the FDA knows. We know it is not safe to 1024 00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,480 Speaker 1: tell people to take it in. So the FDA gets 1025 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,640 Speaker 1: kind of unhappy with this, and Merk replied, she just 1026 00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 1: slipped up. We taught Hammil the proper way to sell 1027 00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,160 Speaker 1: our product, but she went off script. They promised to 1028 00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,960 Speaker 1: retrain her before following up with any additional advertisements. This 1029 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,239 Speaker 1: happened on September twelfth, two thousand. The next day, in 1030 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,440 Speaker 1: violation of their promise to the FDA, Hamill appeared on 1031 00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,480 Speaker 1: a local TV station in Atlanta to urge people to 1032 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,360 Speaker 1: consider a biox. The FDA never found out about this 1033 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 1: and might not have cared if they had, if you 1034 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,640 Speaker 1: wanted to get away with something. September twelfth, will actually 1035 00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,200 Speaker 1: that was two thousand. Never mind, everything was still fine. 1036 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: I was gonna. I was just like, did I just 1037 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:48,960 Speaker 1: go over to September twelfth and not make it? 1038 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,319 Speaker 2: I feel like that. No, No, it's fine. 1039 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,480 Speaker 1: Research didn't happen yet, everything was fine. Plenty of towers 1040 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,400 Speaker 1: in New York still at this now. The unfortunate reality 1041 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,760 Speaker 1: of the FDA is that it is stand and operated 1042 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,640 Speaker 1: by a lot of people who want to work in 1043 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 1: the private sector of the pharmaceutical industry someday, and some 1044 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,920 Speaker 1: of these people feel a need to avoid making waves 1045 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,839 Speaker 1: and killing a golden goose that is currently injecting cash 1046 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,279 Speaker 1: into someone they want as a future employer who made 1047 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,120 Speaker 1: a bit of past employer that they're hoping we'll hire 1048 00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,440 Speaker 1: them on for a lucrative consulting gig in the future. 1049 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 1: Beyond that, the teams at the FDA who we rely 1050 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,440 Speaker 1: on to monitor food and drug advertising are hideously understaffed, 1051 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: operating on a shoe string budget. There may not have 1052 00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 1: been anyone watching Dorothy Hamill's ad on local Atlanta TV 1053 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,120 Speaker 1: because no one was being paid to do so. Now, 1054 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,960 Speaker 1: MERK did change their TV ads for vyox based on 1055 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,520 Speaker 1: the FDA's feedback, and you can see one example of 1056 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 1: that here. We've got to play just one of these 1057 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,880 Speaker 1: bad boys. Here is Dorothy Hamill's revised vyox ad. 1058 00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,319 Speaker 5: When I started skating at eight years old, I never 1059 00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,400 Speaker 5: thought i'd experience the thrill of winning a medal with 1060 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,640 Speaker 5: all the great memories. Has come another thing I thought 1061 00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,080 Speaker 5: I'd never experience, The pain of osteo Arthur writers. 1062 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,319 Speaker 6: Yox is here. Medicine for ustioar threat is pain. With 1063 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 6: one little pill of day, biox can provide powerful twenty 1064 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,720 Speaker 6: four hour relief. Biox specifically targets only the COX two enzyme. 1065 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,360 Speaker 6: A key source of our threat is pain. People with 1066 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,840 Speaker 6: allergic reactions such as asthma to aspirin or other arthreatus 1067 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,640 Speaker 6: medicines should not take bios. In rare cases, serious stomach 1068 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,680 Speaker 6: problems such as bleeding can occur without warning. Tell your 1069 00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,719 Speaker 6: doctor if you have liver or kidney problems. For more information, 1070 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,719 Speaker 6: talk to your doctor about once daily biox for the 1071 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:30,479 Speaker 6: relief of ostio war threat is pain. 1072 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,000 Speaker 5: Perhaps my biggest victory is to be able to plan 1073 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,920 Speaker 5: my day around my life instead of my pain after. 1074 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:41,120 Speaker 6: Your doctor Biox is right for you, bios for everyday victories. 1075 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:43,879 Speaker 2: First of all, I take back what I said about 1076 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 2: her hair. I think it actually looked really good there. 1077 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:51,720 Speaker 2: I don't know, like time and the cycle change and fashion. 1078 00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,840 Speaker 1: I don't know it was the Viox. You don't know. 1079 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,520 Speaker 1: Maybe vix makes your hair look great. 1080 00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,719 Speaker 2: Everybody. It's a by Biox. It's a brilliant strategy. Like 1081 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,359 Speaker 2: the people who grew up watching her and knew who 1082 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,719 Speaker 2: she was and admired her are that age where they 1083 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:08,080 Speaker 2: were having lots of the osteoarthritis and joint pains looking 1084 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,960 Speaker 2: for medication. It's a she's the perfect spokesperson. Yeah, and 1085 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,120 Speaker 2: she has that innocence so that you believe, you know. 1086 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. And the Dorothy hammel Ads are a huge success. 1087 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,239 Speaker 1: Millions of Americans saw their former child sweetheart skating and 1088 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,840 Speaker 1: skiing and living an active, healthy life thanks to this 1089 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,560 Speaker 1: new miracle drug, and millions of them decided I want 1090 00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 1: that for myself, And ultimately tens of thousands of them 1091 00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,040 Speaker 1: are going to die as a result. And that's the 1092 00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,920 Speaker 1: story we're going to tell in Part two. Kaba can't wait, 1093 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,759 Speaker 1: Yay But first off, do you have anything to plug 1094 00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:40,719 Speaker 1: before we roll out here? 1095 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,360 Speaker 2: I do plug is my show. That is the plug 1096 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,160 Speaker 2: that I want to plug is my show. I'm plugging 1097 00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,000 Speaker 2: it now. It's called The House of Pod. It is 1098 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 2: a humor adjacent medical podcast. If you like the subjects, 1099 00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,440 Speaker 2: like today's subject, you'll like our show. In fact, one 1100 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,360 Speaker 2: of our most recent episodes is about sort of similar 1101 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:08,200 Speaker 2: a little bit less egregious, but similar pharmaceutical shenanigaree. I 1102 00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:11,840 Speaker 2: don't know if that's a word about the medication zygris 1103 00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,400 Speaker 2: And and there's all kinds of fun guests like Robert 1104 00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:20,240 Speaker 2: and prop and all the people you know and love here, Margaret. 1105 00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,319 Speaker 2: So check out my show, The House of Pod. And 1106 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,359 Speaker 2: if you want, you can follow me at Blue Sky, 1107 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,200 Speaker 2: which I'm giving a shot now. Seems a little bit 1108 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:28,440 Speaker 2: less fascist. 1109 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely less fascist. It's got its own annoyances, but 1110 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,319 Speaker 1: all of social media has things that annoy me. So 1111 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:35,800 Speaker 1: what are you gonna do exactly? 1112 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:37,319 Speaker 2: You can follow me there at Cave MD. 1113 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,000 Speaker 1: You can also follow me there and I write, okay, 1114 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,359 Speaker 1: where you can follow me on the other place too, 1115 00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,240 Speaker 1: But you know what you could do that I would 1116 00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 1: appreciate most get off the internet. Feed somebody you know 1117 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 1: do something good in the world. Like it online, I 1118 00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,840 Speaker 1: like it. And to listen to podcasts. Keep listening. For 1119 00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,600 Speaker 1: the love of God, keep listening. Do not stop listening 1120 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:01,840 Speaker 1: to the podcast under no circumstances. 1121 00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,560 Speaker 2: Stop. Will you ever stop? In fact no, just for 1122 00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,640 Speaker 2: thinking about stopping. You should listen to extra podcasts today. 1123 00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, I'll say it right now. If 1124 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:12,920 Speaker 1: you have stomach holcers podcast on the podcast. 1125 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,560 Speaker 2: Your Way Through It podcast Your Way Through. 1126 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:15,080 Speaker 1: It, that's right. 1127 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,240 Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. 1128 00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,880 Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia 1129 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:29,240 Speaker 3: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 1130 00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,480 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the 1131 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,560 Speaker 3: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday 1132 00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:37,240 Speaker 3: and Friday. 1133 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:38,280 Speaker 1: Subscribe to our 1134 00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 3: Channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind the Bastards