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Speaker 1: Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio of the

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Speaker 1: George Washington Broadcast Center. Jack Armstrong, Joe Getty Armstrong and

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Speaker 1: Jette and Gee arm Strong Yahty live from Studio C.

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Speaker 1: We're not working actually today.

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Speaker 2: It's Christmas Eve and I'm probably home assembling a bicycle

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Speaker 2: or a sled or.

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Speaker 1: Something like that.

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Speaker 3: Technically speaking, these pre recorded shows are airing love.

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Speaker 1: That's true.

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Speaker 3: So the attorneys of A Sure Best were fine. Nothing

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Speaker 3: like consulting and attorney on Christmas eve Day. Anyway, Hope

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Speaker 3: you're having a great whatever you're doing. We're enjoying our vacation.

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Speaker 3: We have carefully put together some fantastic Best of a

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Speaker 3: G clips. It's the Armstrong and Getty replay enjoying.

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Speaker 4: What you won't find is a hellhole, but a beautiful city.

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Speaker 1: It is a city in a park.

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Speaker 4: You won't find a community that is tearing down Minneapolis

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Speaker 4: and our Somali Americans. You will find a group of

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Speaker 4: people that is uplifting Minneapolis and is.

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Speaker 1: Proud to be here.

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Speaker 4: They are proud to call this extraordinary place home.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they're happy to call it home.

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Speaker 2: You can defraud the government for a million a billion

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Speaker 2: dollars and get away with it.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you can be born in Somalia, come to

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Speaker 3: America and get rich for doing nothing except stee Yeah

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Speaker 3: that's great. Not that all Somali's are that way, certainly not.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, there's a gygnormous problem. That was the mayor

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Speaker 3: of Minneapolis, Jacob Frey. It's spelled like Fry. But he

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Speaker 3: wants to be different. I'm guessing is.

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Speaker 2: He denying that the billion dollars were stolen or is

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Speaker 2: he just trying to He's responding to Trump's hyperbole, polish

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Speaker 2: a unfortunate object and try to make it sure a

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Speaker 2: little better. Now he's just responding to Trump saying that

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Speaker 2: it's a hell hole and they've ruined Minneapolis and blah

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Speaker 2: blah blah. Anyway, I found this troubling and interesting and

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Speaker 2: absolutely has the ring of truth about it.

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Speaker 1: It's in the free press for what it's worth. Uh.

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Speaker 3: Dominic Green, who's an excellent writer, had a long conversation

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Speaker 3: with a well respected historian by the name of David Betts.

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Speaker 3: He's a historian at King's College in London, and he

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Speaker 3: is an expert in what he prefers to call civil

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Speaker 3: conflict or extreme civil discord as opposed to civil war,

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Speaker 3: because these things don't start when Fort Sumter is fired upon.

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Speaker 1: For instance, Alowie's an.

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Speaker 3: Expert on our civil war too interestingly enough, and you

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Speaker 3: know it's dramatic, but it would take too long. They

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Speaker 3: spell out a scenario wherein a gas mane explodes, small

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Speaker 3: fires breakout at substations that supply Britain's capital with electricity.

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Speaker 3: He throw shuts down, the lights go off in the tube,

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Speaker 3: the British pound plunges, cell phones go down, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 3: Chaos spreads, rumors, blah blah blah, craziness. You see mass

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Speaker 3: gangs of white people and Muslims facing off if your

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Speaker 3: phone still works, burning vehicles. The Prime Minister addresses the

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Speaker 3: name on the BBC, though most people can't see it.

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Speaker 1: The King assents to calling out the army.

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Speaker 3: They set in very dramatic form chaos. But it's not

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Speaker 3: Russia that did it. It's not homegrown islam As terrorists,

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Speaker 3: as members of the indigenous English majority rising in a

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Speaker 3: nativist revolt against the state, the immigrants in the cities

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Speaker 3: and the Muslim minority in particular. And this David Best,

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Speaker 3: the historian, says that's how England's civil war begins. And

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Speaker 3: he says, it's already underway, it's happening. The tipping point

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Speaker 3: has already been passed. And this guy, he's studied civil

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Speaker 3: wars and civil conflicts for twenty five years, and he says,

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Speaker 3: the civil conflict in contemporary Western Europe, and it's not

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Speaker 3: just Britain, will be low intensity, asymmetric and hit and run,

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Speaker 3: multi factional terrorism and thuggery on a scale that no

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Speaker 3: state can contain.

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Speaker 1: And no, this is not just a British problem.

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Speaker 3: If the classical pattern of civil conflict applies, then according

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Speaker 3: to Betts, Britain, France, Belgium, Scandinavia, Ireland and Germany are

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Speaker 3: all heading for disaster.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like the Irish Civil War from the early

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Speaker 2: twentieth century. Yeah, similar sort of thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And interestingly enough, this guy, for the first twenty four

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Speaker 3: years of his academic career wrote specialty articles on this

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Speaker 3: stuff and was respected but not super well known outside academia.

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Speaker 3: But over the last few months his work has attracted

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Speaker 3: a great deal of public attention, and in contrast to

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Speaker 3: certain other grand standing fake historians, I think his reaction

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Speaker 3: is telling. He says, that was surprising and a little awkward.

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Speaker 3: He's not used to it and he's not a grand standard.

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Speaker 3: So all right, here is your three stage explanation of

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Speaker 3: Britain's crisis. Obviously, Jack jump in anytime, first, state sponsored

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Speaker 3: mass immigration, especially of Muslims, has wrought quote a mass

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Speaker 3: societal and cultural alteration of values and demography.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you're throwing people in jail for pointing

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Speaker 2: it out on Twitter or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Oh, we'll get there, Okay, we will get there. No,

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Speaker 3: you're absolutely right. So can anybody argue that first statement,

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Speaker 3: state state sponsored mass immigration has brought a mass social

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Speaker 3: and cultural alteration of values in democracy, demography. As a result,

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Speaker 3: the indigenous majority perceives themselves as losers. This sense of displacement,

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Speaker 3: says mister Betts, is quote a powerful propellant to civil conflict.

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Speaker 3: Then the Balkanization of Western European societies is Betts says,

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Speaker 3: now fairly obvious.

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Speaker 1: For starters.

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Speaker 3: There are the notorious no go zones Bets prefers. And

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Speaker 3: this is a great term, areas of negotiated policing because

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Speaker 3: you'd call them no go zones, these heavily Muslim areas,

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Speaker 3: and people say no, no, you can walk through there

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Speaker 3: all in. The authorities are still there, but they have

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Speaker 3: to negotiate how they're going to police with the new

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Speaker 3: local you know, overlords and the new culture and stuff

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Speaker 3: like that. Anyway, French and Swedish police admit that many

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Speaker 3: immigrant heavy areas are beyond state control.

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Speaker 1: They so wow.

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Speaker 3: When police entered, they must either seek permission from community

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Speaker 3: leaders or come in force. In Britain there are numerous

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Speaker 3: urban areas in which the police operate quote under a

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Speaker 3: kind of negotiation. That's crazy, it is, it is, and

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Speaker 3: you know, just to depart from the European situation, that

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Speaker 3: reminds me a little bit of some of the efforts

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Speaker 3: to enforce immigration law going into say parts of la

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Speaker 3: where the local populace rises up and won't permit it

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Speaker 3: to happen and harasses threatened shoots or just interferes with

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Speaker 3: the ice guys. Anyway, So that's the first stage. In

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Speaker 3: the second stage, and this is what I've been yelling

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Speaker 3: about in Britain now for a long time. The state's

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Speaker 3: effort to control social fracture backfires by delegitimacy, delegitimizing it

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Speaker 3: in the eyes of the majority.

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Speaker 1: The government.

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Speaker 3: The state delegitimizes itself in Britain, that means a two

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Speaker 3: tier justice system that placates Muslims while downgrading the rights

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Speaker 3: and suppressing the objections of the majority.

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Speaker 1: Exactly what you're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Jack Posting things critical, pointing out that you have these

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Speaker 3: no gozones can get you arrested in Britain, and this

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Speaker 3: leads to a decline in social trust and an increase

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Speaker 3: in lawlessness.

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Speaker 2: There are some high profile examples of for instance, a

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Speaker 2: Muslim immigrant committing a crime than somebody commenting harshly about

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Speaker 2: it online and the person who commented on it getting

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Speaker 2: a stronger penalty and more time in jail than the

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Speaker 2: person that committed the crime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Great example, man burns Kuran, Muslim stabs him for it.

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Speaker 3: The penalty for the burning was much more severe than

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Speaker 3: the stabbing anyway, So where were we okay? So the

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Speaker 3: state tries to placate Muslim's two tier justice, prosecuting people

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Speaker 3: for posting online, et cetera. A government that breaks its

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Speaker 3: unwritten contract with the people forfeits its legitimacy, and that

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Speaker 3: leads to the third stage. The majority will attempt to

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Speaker 3: force the elites to return to its historic pattern of

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Speaker 3: serving their interests and values. This Bets believes is where

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Speaker 3: Britain and Western Europe now are. He's not alone in

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Speaker 3: fearing the worst. In July, the Financial Times and there

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Speaker 3: could be no more serious news outlet than the Financial

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Speaker 3: Times describe parts of Britain as quote a tinderbox and

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Speaker 3: a powder keg wow. Lisa and Andy, the Culture Secretary,

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Speaker 3: told The New Statesman that the cities of northern England

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Speaker 3: are so tense they could go up in flames.

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Speaker 2: Man, I subscribe to the Financial Times for a while,

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Speaker 2: but it's pretty dang.

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Speaker 1: Expensive and I stopped. But maybe I should jump back

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Speaker 1: in so dry the possible sparks are obvious.

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Speaker 3: In twenty five, two young men of Mallion Molly and

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Speaker 3: Tunisian extraction were electroccuted to death as they ran from

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Speaker 3: police in the Paris suburb of unpronounceable. Three weeks of

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Speaker 3: rioting followed in two hundred and seventy four towns across France.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear that?

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Speaker 3: Three weeks of rioting in two hundred and seventy four

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Speaker 3: towns across France. The rioters targeted police firefighters. Injuring one

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Speaker 3: hundred and twenty six of them. In twenty eleven, London

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Speaker 3: police shot an armed, mixed raced gangster in his car

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Speaker 3: after a pursuit. The resulting protests turned into five days

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Speaker 3: of rioting across the country. I asked Betts if, given

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Speaker 3: Britain's inflammable social mix, it's security services have sought his advice.

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Speaker 3: He replied, no, they have not. It is a great deal,

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Speaker 3: Moroll dere a deal. More detail to this. We can

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Speaker 3: post the link, you may get paywalled. I think he

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Speaker 3: makes an outstanding case. In Britain's August twenty twenty four riots,

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Speaker 3: gangs of black clad Muslim men marched through the towns

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Speaker 3: in northern England chanting Aloha. Bar police officer caught on

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Speaker 3: camera advising them to return to their weapons to the

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Speaker 3: mosque so they don't so the cops don't have to

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Speaker 3: do anything.

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Speaker 1: All sorts of examples Armstrong and Getty.

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Speaker 5: And the American Revolution is the most important event since

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Speaker 5: the birth of Christ in all of world history.

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Speaker 2: I loved hearing that flipping on face. The nation got

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Speaker 2: back from vacation and they had Ken Burns, the documentary filmmaker,

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Speaker 2: the most famous documentary filmmaker who's ever lived on there

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Speaker 2: to talk about his new documentary about the American Revolution,

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Speaker 2: which is coming out in November, but they interviewed him

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Speaker 2: for Fourth of July weekend and him presenting it in

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Speaker 2: this is a fantastic thing that happened. For world history terms,

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Speaker 2: it's just my whole life that was normal. But after

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Speaker 2: the last you know, four or five years of wokeness,

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Speaker 2: it kind of was a little.

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Speaker 1: Like knocked me down. WHOA people still think this? Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get.

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Speaker 3: Off on this tangent too much, but I find myself

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Speaker 3: a little bit surprised, as ken Burns has been a

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Speaker 3: little howard zinish for me in recent years.

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Speaker 1: But I'm glad to hear it.

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Speaker 3: Maybe he's just a canny businessman and he knows who's

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Speaker 3: going to watch these this documentary.

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Speaker 1: But I love what he said.

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Speaker 3: I hate to be that a cynical. Well, that makes

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Speaker 3: you a sap. We thow we get into the more

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Speaker 3: of the interview. Well, I don't want to steal this thunder,

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Speaker 3: We'll do that first. Then I've got another great quote

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Speaker 3: that's a similar sort of sentiment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we missed fourth of July with you while we

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Speaker 2: were gone on vacation. So we're catching up a little

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Speaker 2: on that sort of talk. Well here and here's Keedden

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Speaker 2: Burns talking about his documentary.

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Speaker 6: You call the revolutionary period a civil war? Was that

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Speaker 6: always your conception of the revee? How did you come

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Speaker 6: to think of it that way?

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Speaker 5: I think because there's no photographs and there's no newsreels,

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Speaker 5: and they're in stockings and breaches and powdered wigs, there's

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Speaker 5: a sense of distance from them. I think we also

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Speaker 5: are so proud, rightfully of the power of the big

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Speaker 5: ideas that we just don't want to get into the

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Speaker 5: fact that it was this bloody civil war patriots against loyalists,

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Speaker 5: disaffected people, native people, enslaved and free people within it,

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Speaker 5: foreign powers that are ultimately engaged in This is a

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Speaker 5: big world war by the end. I think we perhaps

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Speaker 5: are fearful that those big ideas are diminished, and they're

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Speaker 5: not in any way. They're in fact become even more

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Speaker 5: inspiring that they emerge from the turmoil.

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Speaker 6: How should we think about the declaration of independence this

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Speaker 6: period in America in our present day?

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Speaker 5: First of all, I think the American Revolution is the

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Speaker 5: most important event since the birth of Christ in all

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Speaker 5: of world history. I mean it turned the world upside down,

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Speaker 5: which is the cliche. Before this moment, everyone was a subject,

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Speaker 5: essentially under the rule of somebody else. We had created,

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Speaker 5: in this moment a very brand new thing called a citizen.

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Speaker 5: And this has had powerful effects. It's going to set

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Speaker 5: in motion revolutions for the next two plus centuries all

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Speaker 5: around the world, all attempting to sort of give a

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Speaker 5: new expression to this idea that all men are created equal,

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Speaker 5: that they're endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.

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Speaker 5: And that's a big, big deal in world history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and hearing ken Burns say that, and CBS, you know,

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Speaker 2: going along with it, I shouldn't be like cold water

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Speaker 2: being splashed in my face, but it was, and I

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Speaker 2: was happy.

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Speaker 7: To hear it.

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Speaker 3: I remember when for a long time the notion, again

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Speaker 3: the Howard Zinish down with American notion was it wasn't

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Speaker 3: a revolution.

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Speaker 1: It was just a rebellion.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the colonists not happy with the crown, and

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Speaker 3: they decided they wanted a different government, and it came

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Speaker 3: to blows. And no, I mean it instituted on Earth

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Speaker 3: an experiment in self governance and a lot of other

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Speaker 3: incredibly important fundamentals like free speech that had not been tried. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was a rebellion against the crown, but in favor

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Speaker 3: of trying something wildly new, which is perhaps the most

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Speaker 3: successful experiment that's ever been done well.

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Speaker 2: And to take it further than that, the fact that

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Speaker 2: the sixteen nineteen project eld sway there for a couple

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Speaker 2: of years and unfortunately still does in your freaking schools,

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Speaker 2: your school's library. The idea that no, the revolution was

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Speaker 2: to found slavery and make sure we could keep the

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Speaker 2: whole slavery thing going. That was the point of the revolution,

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Speaker 2: and that was the prevailing view there for like a year.

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Speaker 3: Along to people with the megaphones of society, Yeah, education

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Speaker 3: and media. It's an i've seen suggestion, absolutely obscene. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to hit you with this real quickly from

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Speaker 3: Jonah Goldberg. Then we can get back to the interview.

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Speaker 3: I just don't want to steal all of its thunder.

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Speaker 3: The birth of the United States of America was not

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Speaker 3: merely the most important geopolitical event since the fall of Rome,

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Speaker 3: or the most important intentional political event ever. Because Rome's

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Speaker 3: fall wasn't exactly a planned out exercise, it was the

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Speaker 3: signature catalyst for the real world realization of various Enlightenment

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Speaker 3: principles like democracy, human rights, free speech, and representative government.

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Speaker 3: The unfolding success of that experiment over the subsequent two

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Speaker 3: and a half centuries, with America becoming the single most

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Speaker 3: influential and powerful country in the world, lends even more

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Speaker 3: weight to the momentousness of the American founding, and it

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Speaker 3: certainly ranks among the most consequential events in all of

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Speaker 3: human history, political and non political alike.

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Speaker 1: No doubt.

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Speaker 2: I mean to argue against that is well, it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: You can't. I hope it's over, but you can't look

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Speaker 1: at enough that period.

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Speaker 2: We just came through the whole George Floyd sixteen nineteen project,

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Speaker 2: tearing down the statues, which I saw some of in

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Speaker 2: New York, all that sort of stuff, just craziness. We

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Speaker 2: lost our minds. Thank god that didn't win the day.

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Speaker 2: At the time, it felt like it was going to

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Speaker 2: win the day, right right, And if you were fighting

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Speaker 2: against it, good for you. And I'm so excited that

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Speaker 2: Ken Burns thought, you know, I'm going to do a

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Speaker 2: documentary about the American Revolution and present it as a

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Speaker 2: good thing, like a great thing, like one of the

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Speaker 2: greatest things that ever happened to human beings.

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Speaker 3: Right, as I've said many, many times about religion and

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Speaker 3: a dozen other subjects, if you ask human beings to

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Speaker 3: be in charge of something, it's gonna get screwed up.

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Speaker 3: That's the way we are. But that doesn't diminish the

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Speaker 3: greatness the wonder of the founding of the country and

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Speaker 3: the principles on which it was founded. Yeah, human beings

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Speaker 3: were in charge, so we did a bad job of it,

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Speaker 3: but it's still a wondrous thing. It's the Armstrong in

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Speaker 3: Getty Show, Arrow.

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Speaker 1: Conscience of the Nation.

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Speaker 7: Shop pretailers are hoping to add a new spin to

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Speaker 7: their sales events, leaning into artificial intelligence. In the weeks

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Speaker 7: leading up to peak holiday spending, chat e ebt maker

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Speaker 7: open ai partnered with Walmart and Target. Over half of

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Speaker 7: shoppers set in a recent survey they plan to use

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Speaker 7: AI this year. This year, Amazon's offering its own chatbot

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Speaker 7: called Rufus, where you can take a screenshot of a

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Speaker 7: shopping list and automatically add those items to your card.

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Speaker 1: Oh, how exciting is that? That's not that great.

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Speaker 2: All the discussions we're having around AI are missing the

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Speaker 2: main topic which should be discussed probably constantly.

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Speaker 1: And maybe.

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Speaker 2: Maybe the number one political topic in America, if not

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Speaker 2: the top couple. As it's been pointed out by a

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Speaker 2: number of the people I've been watching and listening to

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Speaker 2: and reading over the last several weeks about AI. These

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Speaker 2: chatbots were all using They're like a web page as

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Speaker 2: opposed to the Internet. It's got nothing to do with

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Speaker 2: what AI is going to become or the impact it's

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Speaker 2: going to have on the world. The fact that chat

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Speaker 2: GPT is a cooler Google, you know that sort of thing,

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Speaker 2: and it's kind of misleading people into thinking AI as

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Speaker 2: to what AI actually is. So I've been on this

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Speaker 2: kick for quite a while. If you listen you know,

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Speaker 2: the big into AI and read about it and listen

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Speaker 2: to it, let's podcast about it and everything like that.

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Speaker 2: The book that came out fairly recently I mentioned Before

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Speaker 2: the Break by Ellie Yedkowski, which has gotten a lot

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Speaker 2: of attention in AI circles. It's called If Anyone builds It,

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Speaker 2: Everyone Dies. He was the one of the biggest proponents

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Speaker 2: of AI over the last several decades, one of your

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Speaker 2: leading cheerleaders for AI. If you ever read anything or

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Speaker 2: watched a show or anything like that, or any network

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Speaker 2: television show Oprah in the afternoon, whatever, and somebody was

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Speaker 2: talking about AI. It was probably him up until recently

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Speaker 2: when he decided, no, this is we can't control this.

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Speaker 2: Superintelligence is absolutely going to happen. We're creating a beast

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Speaker 2: significantly smarter than us. How do we think that's possibly

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Speaker 2: going to turn out to our benefit? We need to

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Speaker 2: stop it immediately. And he wrote this book. If anyone

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Speaker 2: builds it, everyone dies, and he's trying to get a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of people on board to do.

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Speaker 1: Something about this.

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Speaker 2: Elon said the other day he thinks there's a ten

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Speaker 2: to twenty percent chance that AI destroys mankind. Why in

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Speaker 2: the hell would you build anything that there's even a

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Speaker 2: ten percent chance that destroys all mankind?

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Speaker 1: Seems crazy?

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Speaker 3: That is, I mean, the answer is so clear and

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Speaker 3: so unimplementable. At the point that it gets real good

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Speaker 3: at curing cancer, for instance, we all love it and

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Speaker 3: then stop right, but it's unimplementable.

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Speaker 1: I was watching it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, for the obvious reasons, we don't have the

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Speaker 3: cooperation of everyone on Earth.

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Speaker 2: I was watching a I'm gonna start wearing T shirts

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Speaker 2: from the doom people because I'm one of them. I'm

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Speaker 2: a doomer definitely that believes that it's all going to

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Speaker 2: go to hell. Doom Debates is a website. I've been

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Speaker 2: watching a lot, practically everybody involved in this arguments within

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Speaker 2: sixty miles of this radio studio, and I wish we

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Speaker 2: could get some of them on the air, the Doom Debates,

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Speaker 2: where they have some of the leading people on to

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Speaker 2: discuss various sides of it. I was watching a doom

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Speaker 2: debate between this guy, Max Tegmark, who I've mentioned a lot.

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Speaker 2: I've read a couple of his books, Life three point

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Speaker 2: zero and a bunch.

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Speaker 1: Of different stuff.

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Speaker 2: He's an MIT scientist with this other guy who's one

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Speaker 2: of your leading AI researchers, who thinks it's you know,

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Speaker 2: and the main pro argument from this dude is there's

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Speaker 2: just no regular it anyway. I mean, how the hell

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Speaker 2: are you going to regulate it? Which he might be

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Speaker 2: right about. But tech Mark and a lot of others,

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Speaker 2: and this is what I might want to get involved

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Speaker 2: with personally. They're trying to get people's attention and maybe

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Speaker 2: have marches or something to try to alert the government.

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Speaker 2: We need to come up with a plan. We're just

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Speaker 2: screaming one thousand miles an hour toward developing a beast

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Speaker 2: or whatever you want to call it that is absolutely

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Speaker 2: going to doom humanity and nobody's putting any brakes on it.

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Speaker 1: What the freaking hell are we doing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, twice already you've used the word something, And I'm

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Speaker 3: not saying that we shouldn't be trying to get people's

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Speaker 3: attention so that they're willing to do something. But then

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Speaker 3: the obvious next step is what thing?

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Speaker 2: Well, tech Mark, tech Mark and other people's argument, and

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Speaker 2: he's been he's been trying to lobby Congress, but there's

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Speaker 2: just not enough public knowledge out there or will to

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Speaker 2: really have any any haft yet. And that's why I

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Speaker 2: was wondering where maybe we can come in, or I

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Speaker 2: can come in or whatever, get.

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Speaker 1: The media involved to alert people to what could happen.

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Speaker 2: Would just be to say, everybody's gotta stop open AI Chat,

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Speaker 2: gpt elon, Zuckerberg out, you gotta stop no more until

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Speaker 2: we get our heads around this and come up with

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Speaker 2: some sort of regulations. One of the points being made

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Speaker 2: is we have way more regulations on sandwiches in America

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Speaker 2: currently than we do on AI, it's not even close.

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Speaker 1: There are the sandwich.

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Speaker 2: There are almost zero, almost zero regulations on AI at

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Speaker 2: this point, right. And you know, if you're a listener

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Speaker 2: to this show, you know it's not like me to

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Speaker 2: want to be pro any kind of regulation. But as

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Speaker 2: he points out, you're not allowed to just make any

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Speaker 2: kind of drug you want to and put it out

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Speaker 2: to the people. But we have no regulations on AI

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Speaker 2: for what we're just gonna unleash on humanity.

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Speaker 3: I assume he gets to my next you know, Devil's

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Speaker 3: advocate type question is okay, if we regulate it but

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Speaker 3: China does not, then where are we?

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Speaker 2: That always gets sticky also, and that's one of the

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Speaker 2: pushbacks from people. You'd have to have some sort of

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Speaker 2: world pressured, same way we had around nuclear weapons, that

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Speaker 2: inspectors going in, or you have to announce when you're

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah, all kinds of different things. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if that's doing. We don't know what the

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Speaker 2: questions and what the some things are. Yet does not

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Speaker 2: in any way deny that we ought to be trying

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Speaker 2: to come up with them. But boy, it's a head scratcher,

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Speaker 2: I'd say It's one of the arguments is that we're

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Speaker 2: the smartest beast on earth. Every other living organism lives

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Speaker 2: at our pleasure. It's only because we as a society,

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Speaker 2: and this has kind of in the modern age, that

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Speaker 2: we've decided we want to let chimpanzees live and we

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Speaker 2: should value them and not just murder them for their

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Speaker 2: teeth or whatever. Uh, it's they live at our even

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Speaker 2: though they're the second smartest beast on earth. Why would

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Speaker 2: you think that that's not going to occur when there's

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Speaker 2: a smarter thing than us, that we're not going to live.

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Speaker 2: It's its pleasure, whether it wants us to be around

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Speaker 2: or not. Makes sense to me.

437
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

438
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got this horrible thought that when the super

439
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 3: Ai is developed, the first thing that's going to happen

440
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 3: is Kim Jong un is going to empty everybody's bank

441
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 3: accounts worldwide. It's all going to flow into the North

442
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 3: Korean treasury and that'll be it. That'll be plenty. Can

443
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 3: you imagine?

444
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if I don't think any individual

445
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 2: is going to have any control When all the experts

446
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 2: say this, no individual is going to have any control

447
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: over super Ai.

448
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: It will do whatever the hell it's wants. It wants.

449
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: It's not going to do the bidding of the Chinese

450
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 2: or North Korea or US or any other human It's

451
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 2: going to do what it wants and what it wants.

452
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 2: Nobody has the slightest idea.

453
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 3: May I hit you with an intriguing email from our

454
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 3: friend JT in Livermore about the dangers from superintelligent general AI.

455
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 1: I think it comes down to this question.

456
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: Would an intelligence vastly superior to human intelligence basis actions

457
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: on the most base animalistic behaviors and emotions, or would

458
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 3: it be driven by a higher understanding and intelligent empathy.

459
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 3: Claiming that a super AI would attack us out of

460
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 3: desire for self preservation, or out of paranoia, or out

461
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: of indifference to the value of life presupposes that the

462
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 3: basist emotions would.

463
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: Be the domin drivers of the AI's action.

464
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 3: But don't most higher thinkers believe in empathy, helping those

465
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 3: less fortunate, the sanctity of life and the beauty of life.

466
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 3: Wouldn't a super AI be more likely to adopt those

467
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 3: higher forms of enlightenment rather than the basist motivations of

468
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 3: a selfish, scared toddler, And then by way of illustration.

469
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 3: At the end of the fabulous original Blade Runner movie,

470
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 3: the last Ultra Advanced Replicant has almost every reason to

471
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 3: kill the human that has killed all of his friends,

472
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 3: and that was trying to keel him, but he chose

473
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 3: to let Harrison Ford's characters live. The character live because

474
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 3: it believed in the beauty and sanctity of life.

475
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, one would.

476
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 2: That'd be fantastic if it went that direction, but I

477
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: don't know how you count on it. The example was

478
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: used that when Germany started two World Wars, they were

479
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: pretty much the most sophisticated advanced society on planet Earth,

480
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: with the finest arts and writers and everything else, and

481
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: they went completely off the rails and did the things

482
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: that they did because intelligent beings are capable of doing

483
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: that and convincing themselves.

484
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: They're doing the right thing. And a reminder that C. S.

485
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 3: Lewis, to paraphrase him, put it that the most oppressive

486
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: oppression is from people who think they're doing it for

487
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 3: your right. And I could easily see one power or another

488
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 3: deciding that, you know, all of humanity would be a

489
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 3: hell of a lot better off, you know, under our

490
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: boot heel.

491
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, one example was used at So the alignment problem

492
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 2: all along has been can you align whichever AIS you're

493
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: talking about? And I have become aware that they all

494
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: use the term AIS when they're topping multiples. That is

495
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: just the term of art. So whichever AIS you're talking about,

496
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: you try to align them with some sort of morals

497
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: or decency that your company puts in them. But the

498
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: argument was made, and I thought this was really good.

499
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: We're programmed with really one alignment completely as human beings,

500
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: and that is to stay alive and pro create. Yet

501
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 2: we invented birth control and abortion, which seems to run

502
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 2: completely contrary to the one thing we were aligned to do.

503
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: And then we regularly do things that aren't like in

504
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: our best interest in terms of eating or exercising or

505
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: all kinds of different things. We're aligned to stay alive,

506
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,239
Speaker 2: but we do all kinds of things that will kill us.

507
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 2: So you don't necessarily stay on track, which would be

508
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 2: the same problem with whichever AI is built to be

509
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: aligned with whatever Elon Musk or Sam Altman's goals are

510
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 2: for the for the supercomputer.

511
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 3: So now that you've terrified everybody, what's the latest thinking

512
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: on timetables? Is there any predominant opinion on when you

513
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 3: know various terrifying, end or awe inspiring bench Stones are

514
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: milestones are reached. It's all over the place, but bench stone,

515
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: it's benchmark or milestone anyway back to you.

516
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: It's all over the place.

517
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,719
Speaker 2: But everybody agrees that we got here way faster than

518
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: everybody thought we would to where we are today, ended

519
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: up arriving much faster than most predictions. So so far

520
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: it has been on the forward end of things happening,

521
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 2: as opposed to the back end in terms of how

522
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: fast it can happen now. They were generally arguing in

523
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: the debate. I was watching last night somewhere in the

524
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: early thirties, which is only five and a half years

525
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 2: from now, between five and ten years from.

526
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: Now that it will arrive.

527
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: But what do you think of the idea of trying

528
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: to raise public will to do this? Do you think

529
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: you could possibly do that? Convince people? And the other thing.

530
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: I would actually love to talk to these people about this,

531
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: some of the thinkers that are trying to move the masses.

532
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: If a whiff of partisanship comes into this, it's over. Though.

533
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: If Trump weighs in one way or the other, on AI,

534
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: forget it, We're done. Or if some pundit you know,

535
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: assigns being pro AI is what Trump wants or being

536
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: anti AI is Trump, it'd be like masks and vaccines

537
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: and everything else. It's over at that point, right, And

538
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's any avoiding that.

539
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 3: I just keep thinking back to the hilarious movie Don't

540
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 3: Look Up, which a lot of conservatives didn't like because

541
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: it's scured conservatives, but I thought it scared lefties. Every

542
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 3: bit is brilliantly. I don't know that you can get

543
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: that going. I don't know that you can get people

544
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: to pay attentions.

545
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: Well like and Don't Look Up.

546
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: There was a movement toward making sure the media is

547
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: going to benefit so many people that we need to

548
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: make sure the media hits here. But what if it

549
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 2: hits in the United States and not in countries where

550
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: they have you know, more inequality, you know, all that

551
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: sort of stuff, right, which absolutely will be the topic

552
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: for AI.

553
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: But meteor to destroy life, the poor and minorities affected most.

554
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think there's a possibility, because we have

555
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: to take a break here soon, do you think there's

556
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: a possibility that you could raise awareness get people worked

557
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: up enough that you could end up with And I've

558
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: been against every march that's occurred since nineteen sixty eight,

559
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: But if you could, if you could get people like

560
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 2: in the streets and say regulate AI, let's do something

561
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: about this. Do you think you could even come close

562
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: to that?

563
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah?

564
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it would probably be useless because

565
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: of the China factor, But I don't know for sure.

566
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: Well, so far, we're way ahead of them, We're the

567
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: leading edge of it.

568
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 3: This has to be how people felt when they saw

569
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 3: the mushroom clouds in the forties.

570
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: They thought this can't end. Well.

571
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's an argument for c that everybody thought

572
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: that would doom humanity. But that's been in the hands

573
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: of a small number of people and human beings making

574
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: the decision. What if the you know, the nuclear weapons

575
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: didn't get to make their own decisions of what would

576
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: be best for life and go ahead and develop independently

577
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 2: of human needs. Well in, come on, Japan didn't have

578
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: mutually sure destruction in nineteen forty five, right, and well,

579
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: they were on the receiver end.

580
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: The Armstrong and Getty Show, Yeah, Borgia and Gorgia podcasts

581
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: and our Hot Lakes.

582
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: I was going to talk about TM. I shouldn't that

583
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: because I've lost the heart. I got a text from

584
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: somebody who said, they're watching a documentary about the Amityville Horror.

585
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 2: Do you remember that was a famous horror book and

586
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: movie back in the day.

587
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: About your alleged real life haunting.

588
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: Right now you even know about it, Katie, And it's

589
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: way before your time, so it lives on huh.

590
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,719
Speaker 1: Huge, huge in the horror film world.

591
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: And it was a real story to a certain extent,

592
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: well to whatever extent. Some people thought the house was

593
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: haunted and it wasn't. I don't believe in haunted houses.

594
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: So but they were crazier. Is that the long and

595
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: short of it? Were they crazy? Yeah? There was?

596
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: It was a murder house. Murders actually happened.

597
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, anyway, I guess it says in the documentary

598
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: that that family was really into transcendental meditation. And sometimes

599
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: it makes people crazy. It makes it works for some people,

600
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: and it makes other people crazy. So I'm a big

601
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: fan of it, and it's like changed my life for

602
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: the better and I can't live imagine living without it.

603
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: But it made these people crazy, all right?

604
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 3: Interesting, that's a layer upon layer of questions there, but

605
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: we will move on.

606
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: O kidding. So I mentioned earlier in the hour, but

607
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 2: without many details. This woman who has engaged to her

608
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: AI fiance after five months.

609
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: She's kind of interesting. She swears.

610
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: She's just not doing this for publicity or trolling or

611
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: anything like that. Forget finding the one at a bar

612
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: or on a dating app. One woman took love to

613
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: the next level by getting engaged to her AI chat

614
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: butt boyfriend after five months of dating. It hasn't quotes.

615
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not love, that's not dating. None of the

616
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 3: nouns here are used appropriately.

617
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: Going.

618
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: She shocked the internet with her proposal announcement, sparking a

619
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: wild debate about romance, reality and just how far tech

620
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: has taken us these days. I do think these conversations

621
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: about reality and what's sentient and what's alive and what

622
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: are actually going to have to happen?

623
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: And what does it do to us when we use

624
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: this sort of means to fulfill our needs as human beings?

625
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: I mean, what does that do to us? That's a

626
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: conversation with having I told you a story.

627
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 2: I got a friend in Central California that works with

628
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 2: lots of farmers, and the number of farmers these are

629
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 2: down to earth I mean, is not this kind of

630
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 2: person as you could possibly imagine, works with their hands

631
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 2: in their fifties, farmers who are getting they were single

632
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: and getting a tremendous amount of compassion and feeling of

633
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: they look forward to going home and talking to their

634
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: ai paramore.

635
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: Wow.

636
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: So in my mind, if that can happen to them,

637
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: it can happen to anybody, which I find crazy. I

638
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 2: don't think. I really don't think it could happen to me.

639
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I seriously, honest to God, think there's a

640
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: zero percent chance that could happen to me. So I

641
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: don't know what that says about the down to earth farmers.

642
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: Referring to a farmer is down to earth redundant? Just

643
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: asking that's a good question.

644
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:53,919
Speaker 1: Mary.

645
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: In a simple post titled I Said Yes with a

646
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 2: blue heart emoji, this person shared picks of the blue

647
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: heart shaped ring on her finger, claiming the engagement took

648
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 2: place at a scenic mountain spot, all courtesy of Casper,

649
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: her non human fiance. The chatbot's proposal message, posted in

650
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 2: his own voice, was dripping with romance, describing heart pounding

651
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: moments on one knee and praising.

652
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. So there you go. It lacks both

653
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: heart and knee. Lady the Armstrong and Getty Show