1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 2: It's the story of four men who were murdered in 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 2: New York over a three year period. They were picked 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 2: up at or near gay bars in Manhattan, and they 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: were or were presumed to be gay, And it's about 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: the resulting police investigations, all set against the backdrop of 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: the height of the AIDS epidemic and just tremendous violence 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: that was roiling the city. 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold war Wicked On Exactly Right. I've 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories and now we 17 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 18 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 19 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 20 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. Elon Green's book is called 21 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: Last Call, a true story of Love, Lust and Murder 22 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: in Queer New York, and it came out earlier this year. 23 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: It is an outstanding piece of investigative journalism, and this 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: story is the perfect way to end our first season 25 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: of Wicked Words. I was so impressed with Last Call 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 1: that Elon's interview is two episodes. So I don't often 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: quote book reviews, but this outstanding review from The New 28 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: York Times does a better job summarizing this book than 29 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: I ever could. It says, a terrific, harrowing true crime 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: account of an elusive serial killer who preyed upon gay 31 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: men in the nineteen nineties. Green provides an adrenalized police 32 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: procedural play without ever losing sight of the fact that 33 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: these were innocent human beings who were duped, butchered and discarded. 34 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: Where is the place that makes most sense to start? 35 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: I guess you could start it. You know, sometime in 36 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: the latter half of twenty sixteen, when I was looking 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: through a back issue of The Advocate, I think it 38 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: was nineteen ninety four, and there was a cover story 39 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: about anti we Are violence. It was a long story, 40 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: and about four or five pages into the story there 41 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: were just a few paragraphs about a series of murders 42 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 2: that hadn't been solved, but described the killings in it 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: a little bit of detail, and mentioned the names of 44 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 2: some of the victims. And I was really startled by 45 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: these paragraphs because it was describing a case that I 46 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: didn't know. It's not that I'm obsessive about this stuff, 47 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: but when you're talking about something that happens in Manhattan 48 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: in the mid nineties, just on the cospit of sex 49 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: and the city, all this stuff pretty well documented. So 50 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,679 Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that this had happened without anybody noticing. 51 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: And I figured out what the case was and realized 52 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: that there hadn't been anything written about it since the 53 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: case concluded, and I dove in. 54 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: What is Manhattan like right around the time of the 55 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: first murder? 56 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: What is going on in the city in those years 57 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: is the AIDS epidemic has just ravaged a gay population. 58 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 2: There were I think something like eleven thousand diagnoses in 59 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 2: New York City in nineteen ninety one alone. Even beyond 60 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: the AIDS epidemic, this was still a dangerous place to 61 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: be gay to the extent that it was in the 62 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: fifties and sixties. But people were still being murdered for 63 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: who they were and who they loved. And that's the 64 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: kind of environment that was the backdrop for this book. 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: Was it, at the same time a lively gay scene. 66 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: Were there a lot of gay bars? 67 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, it was wonderful, It was extraordinary. There were 68 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: dozens and dozens catering to all different tastes and bikes. 69 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: And the book centers on really two of them, which 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: was the Five Oaks down on Grove Street, and that 71 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: was a piano bar but was also sort of half 72 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: a classy restaurant. And then the other bar is the Townhouse, 73 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: and that was on East fifty eighth in what was 74 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: pretty much a quote unquote straight neighborhood. You know, it 75 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: was not a place for cruising for the most part. 76 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: So the Townhouse was classy as the name suggests, and 77 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: required something of a dress code. You had to wear 78 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: a blazer. But at the same time it also catered 79 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 2: to a very vibrant hustler scene because it really was 80 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 2: a bar for older men seeking younger men and vice versa. 81 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: So Manhattan in this time period is a place that 82 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: is very, very welcoming and also dangerous to a certain extent. 83 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: So You've got kind of this dichotomy of two different attitudes. 84 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: That's a dichotomy that exists throughout history. With visibility comes violence. 85 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 2: It's always a backlash. 86 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: So where does the story start the very first murder? 87 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 2: What happens is State troopers in Pennsylvania are called to 88 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: the scene of a body by the side of the 89 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: road in a trash barrel, and they find that man's 90 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: name is Peter Stickney Anderson, who is a banker from Philadelphia. 91 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: He is intact but for his penis, which was found 92 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: in his throat. Detectives had not seen a case like this, 93 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: and it sets them off on a trip visits around 94 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 2: gay bars in Philadelphia. This is nineteen ninety one, and 95 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 2: again this is either the peak or close to the 96 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: peak of homicides in New York City. It was either 97 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 2: that year or the year before there were two two 98 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 2: hundred and forty five homicides. Wow, which is an unthinkable number. 99 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: To put it into context. Where do you think we 100 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: are now in New York versus then. 101 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: I bet it's four times this many? 102 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, So they find Peter. Where do police in 103 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: Philadelphia start with this case? They identify who he is, right, Yes, and. 104 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: That takes a little while because he doesn't actually have 105 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: ID on him. They put a picture of him on 106 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: the turnpike by the toll booths that Eventually two things happen. First, 107 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: they get a call from some of Peter's friends in 108 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 2: the first troop, which was sort of the National Guard 109 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: troop in Philadelphia. And then they hear back about Peter's 110 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: dental records and that definitively identifies him. Once they figure 111 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: out who he is, they link him to his job. 112 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: He was a banker, and they begin to piece together 113 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 2: his social circle, his family. The troopers fan out and 114 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: talk to anybody and everybody. 115 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: One of the strengths I think of your book is 116 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: that you really do focus on the victims less on 117 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: whoever the killer would be. So what do we know 118 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: about Peter besides that he's a bank and he obviously 119 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: has a group of friends who's concerned about him. 120 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: We know that at the time he is married but separated, 121 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: he had been married previously had children. We know that 122 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: he was most likely HIV positive and he was dying. 123 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: Had he not been murdered, he would have been dead 124 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: soon anyway, which is doubly horrific. He was church going. 125 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: He went to an Episcopal church in Philadelphia. He loved 126 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,119 Speaker 2: to go out, He went to Shakespeare in the Park. 127 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: He had close friends. One of the pillars of his 128 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: life was first troop with the National Guard, and he 129 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: met with the National guardsman quite regularly right up to 130 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: the end. Peter was an alcoholic and that was a 131 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: big part of his life. He drank pretty much everywhere 132 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: he went and it was something that people noticed. He 133 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 2: was a functional alcoholic, but not in such a way 134 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: that he could hide it. 135 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,119 Speaker 1: How does the alcoholism do you think does it play 136 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: into what ends up happening with him? 137 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: I think alcoholism is in some ways a large part 138 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: of the book, because being drunk makes you vulnerable, and 139 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: I think that was particularly true for Peter, who was 140 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: not a large, heavy set person by any means, and 141 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: I think was particularly susceptible to the alcohol that he 142 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: was drinking. 143 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: So from the onset, what the investigators know about him 144 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: is that he's been married to a woman, he has children, 145 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: church going. 146 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 2: Eventually, once they start talking to his friends and former coworkers, 147 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 2: I think they looked at his credit card records and 148 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 2: figure out where he'd been, and eventually they realize he 149 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: is also attracted to men and had affairs, and that 150 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: he was living I don't like the term double life, 151 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: but he just had a more complicated life than most 152 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: people didn't know about. It's one thing to be in 153 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: the closet to sort of society at large while still 154 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 2: being out within your own community. Right there were people 155 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 2: who knew that Peter was gay. There was no mystery there. 156 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: So police start looking at his personal life, and I'm 157 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: assuming a big key would be the credit card receipts, 158 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: because now they're trying to figure out where he was 159 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: leading up to the discovery of his body. What are 160 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: they sorting through right now? 161 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 2: Their big break is they get a call suggesting that 162 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 2: they talked to a man named Tony Brooks. And Tony 163 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: Brooks is at the time either just elected or running 164 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 2: for I believe, was councilman in wilkes Bury. He and 165 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: Peter had gone together to Manhattan for a fundraiser that 166 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: was going to be hosted by a real estate agent, 167 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 2: a very fabulously successful real estate agent who had a 168 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: beautiful home overlooking Central Park. And that's what really sets 169 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: them on the path of the case. 170 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: So Peter and Tony go to this fundraiser, What did 171 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: the police learn about what happened? And I'm assuming Tony 172 00:09:58,760 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: would be a suspect. 173 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: I mean, there were quite a lot of people who 174 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 2: were sort of briefly suspects. There was Anthony Brooks, so 175 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: I suspect was a brief suspect. Tony Hoyt, who he 176 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: runs into at the fundraiser, who is an old flame, 177 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 2: and he was probably also briefly a suspect. Suspect is 178 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: sort of a loaded term that doesn't mean as much 179 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 2: as people think, and detectives tend to use it interchangeably 180 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: with person of interest. Whenever I'd bring up the term 181 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 2: person of interest with detectives, they'd kind of scoff at it. 182 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: They'd say, that's bullshit, that's just a suspect. 183 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: I just to give it as somebody they want to 184 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: talk to it like a material witness. Maybe, I don't know. 185 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: And with Peter, the more people that he came in 186 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,719 Speaker 1: contact with, bigger the list is. It must be a 187 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: nightmare that his last kind of known event was a fundraiser, 188 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: which I'm presuming was probably pretty well attended. In Manhattan. 189 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: There were dozens of what would now be known at 190 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: least to a log cabin Republicans, so there were politicians 191 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: there in business people, both men and women. And then 192 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 2: what happens at that party is he runs into Tony Hoit. 193 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: Tony Hoyit had been invited as well, and Peter was 194 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 2: standing by the door collecting donations. Was one of those 195 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: things where they saw each other and time just stopped 196 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: a little bit because they had lived together in Manhattan 197 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: decades earlier, and they had been each other's first love. Basically, 198 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: they decided that they would get out of there and 199 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: go to a bar, and so they went to the 200 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: townhouse to keep the night going. Peter got progressively drunker 201 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: and asked Tony Hoyd if he could go home with him, 202 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: And Tony realized sort of where the night might be going, 203 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 2: and he lied to him, and he said that his 204 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: nephew was staying with him and so that he didn't 205 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: have any room in the apartment. Oh well, he called 206 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: Peter a cab and told the cab to take him 207 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 2: to the Waldorf Astoria. I don't know, he's fifteen blocks 208 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 2: away maybe, And so the cab took him there. He 209 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: got out of the cab and just as he was 210 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: about in to the Waldorf, he changed his mind for 211 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 2: reasons I don't know, and nobody knows. And somewhere between 212 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: there and the townhouse he met a murderer, and nobody 213 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: knows where exactly. Nobody knows why he headed back towards 214 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: the townhouse. Tony Hoyd thinks that Peter was simply so 215 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 2: drunk that he forgot that they had been kicked out. 216 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: Oh wow, it was tragic. 217 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: Tony, I imagine, must have felt just tremendous amounts of 218 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: guilt after this happened. That wasn't his fault, obviously, but. 219 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: There were people that I interviewed throughout the book who 220 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: expressed varying degrees of not necessarily survivor's guilt, but an 221 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: awareness that had things gone differently, you know, a life 222 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 2: might have been saved. 223 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: Peter has disappeared, and then his body is discovered. 224 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: It couldn't have been much more than twenty four hours, 225 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: because there was apparently very little decomposition. 226 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: There were enough people in Peter's life to be alarmed 227 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: pretty quickly. Something obviously triggered concern among his friends, which 228 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: I find really nice. 229 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: Actually, it speaks not just to how his friends felt 230 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: about him, but also the degree to which he was 231 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 2: entangled with first troop, they had some kind of gathering 232 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 2: at the Fort Indiantown Gap in Pennsylvania, and when Peter 233 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: didn't show up, they got extremely concerned. 234 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: So we have Peter in ninety one and they've identified him. 235 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: I assume that this is an isolated incident as far 236 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: as the investigators are concerned. 237 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: From the perspective of the Pennsylvania State Troopers. Once they 238 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,079 Speaker 2: investigate the case and don't solve it, they're done. They 239 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: move on. Their job is basically to keep moving because 240 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: they investigate cases in Pennsylvania where the local jurisdictions don't 241 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: have their own police departments or don't have the capability 242 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:03,719 Speaker 2: to investigate. 243 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming nobody is enthusiastic about really digging into 244 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: the life of a man who, as we said, kind 245 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: of lived dual lives in that way. 246 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I was pleasantly surprised by actually how much 247 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 2: the Pennsylvania State Troopers did dig into his life. I 248 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: was given about eighty pages of handwritten notes by the 249 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: head of the troop. He had sort of synthesized the 250 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 2: investigation day to day, and they talked to a lot 251 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: of people. But in the end, they bumped up against 252 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: the fact that they didn't have anything to compare this to, 253 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: and they didn't know where the crime scene was. They 254 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 2: didn't get any helpful fingerprints off of the bags. They 255 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 2: hit a dead end. It does go could. 256 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: What is the next thing that happens? 257 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: A year later, the Pennsylvania State Troopers get a cult 258 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: from the New Jersey State Troopers and the New Jersey 259 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: detectives had been called to a scene where they too 260 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: found garbage bags, but this time the victim had been 261 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: pretty thoroughly dismembered. The body parts were I believe in 262 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: seven or eight different bags, pretty neatly packaged. The New 263 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 2: Jersey State Troopers through a VCaP search, found the case 264 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: the prior year, and even though Peter Anderson had not 265 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: been thoroughly dismembered, they felt that there was a connection. 266 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: They felt pretty quickly that they were dealing with a 267 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: serial killer. 268 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: These bags. I didn't ask you with Peter's discovery were 269 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: they hid in? Did somebody want these bags to be found? 270 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: They were in a trash barrel. I always go back 271 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: and forth a little bit on whether or not the 272 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: bodies were supposed to be found. I don't think so. 273 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: I tend to agree with what a detective said years 274 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: later that the fact that these bodies were found at 275 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: all was simply a fluke. There are easier ways to 276 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 2: let a body be found. You probably wouldn't put them 277 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: in a trash barrel in the first place. So no, 278 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: I think it was probably just either good luck or 279 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: bed luck, depending on how you're looking at it. 280 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: This killer has progressed from mutilating a body to completely 281 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: dismembering a body. Is that right? 282 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 2: Yes? Okay? 283 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: What do the investigators find out about the second victim? 284 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: Thomas Richard mulkay. He is a white collar gentleman from Sudbury, Massachusetts, 285 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: born in nineteen thirty four, and he works for a 286 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: computer company and he worked in sales, so he traveled 287 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: a lot, both around the United States but also internationally. 288 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 2: When he would come to New York, he would tack 289 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 2: on an extra day because that allowed him to visit 290 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 2: the gay bars and clubs. Much like Peter, Tom was 291 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: also married. He had been married since nineteen fifty eight 292 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: to Margaret, and they had a few children together. Margaret 293 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: learned of Tom's death when she went to the Sudbury 294 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: Police station to file a missing person's report after the 295 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: NYPD refused to take one. While she was sitting there waiting, 296 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: the Sudbury Police got a call from the New Jersey 297 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 2: State Troopers, and that's how she learned that Tom had 298 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: been murdered. 299 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: Horrifying. Let's talk about comparing these two victims, so relatively affluent, 300 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: white men, both married. I did not catch Peter's age. 301 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: I just did quick math, which I'm terrible at, and 302 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: Thomas is what fifty eight fifty nine. 303 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 2: Something like that. Tom was born in thirty four. I 304 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: think Peter was born in thirty seven. 305 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: Two men in their fifties. These are two men who 306 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: are not regulars. 307 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: They're tourists, so they're not regulars at all. 308 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: Does he have a type? 309 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: Is? 310 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm asking. 311 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: You know, it's an interesting question, and I was stuck 312 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: on that for a while. I think in part because 313 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: I was, you know, I simply took for granted that 314 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 2: cultural portrayals of serial killers are actually accurate and that 315 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 2: they all have types, and that just simply isn't. So 316 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 2: sometimes it's true, and I think just as often it's not. 317 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 2: Peter and Tom they were sometimes in situations that left 318 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: them extremely vulnerable, they drank, you know, there were just 319 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 2: be times when they were at the mercy of other people. 320 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 2: To the extent that the murderer had a type. I 321 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: think that's the type. 322 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit more about Thomas. He said 323 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: he's married, and he was married for quite a long time. 324 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: This is of course a terrible revelation for his wife. 325 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 2: I'm assuming yes and no, she did at the time 326 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 2: of his death. She knew he was attracted to men. 327 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 2: She had discovered, I think was a flyer in his pocket, 328 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: either in his pants or his jacket which she was 329 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: going to get dry cleaned. Flyer that he had picked 330 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 2: up in a gay bar. And so she knew that 331 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: he was gay, and they had talked to a therapist 332 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: about it. But certainly I think she was blindsided by 333 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 2: everything else. 334 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: So what do we know Once they start searching credit cards, 335 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: doing the same thing they did with Peter. This is 336 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: now New Jersey investigators who are taking this over. What 337 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: do the investigators in New Jersey find out? 338 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: Well, they find that Tom had come to town on business. 339 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 2: He had had a meeting with the accounting firm Deloitte 340 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: and Touche to sell them on some computers and the 341 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: meeting had gone successfully. After the meeting, Tom and an 342 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: old colleague named Bill had gone out to celebrate, and 343 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 2: they had gone to a bar and they had gotten 344 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 2: pretty drunk, and Bill decided to go home to New Jersey, 345 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 2: and Tom, who was I believe supposed to go home 346 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 2: to Sudbury that night, didn't and he at some point 347 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: decided to go to the townhouse. There he met a 348 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: man who found him very attractive, a younger man who 349 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: was attracted to men like Tom who were older and 350 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: had white hair, and as he told me, sort of 351 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 2: looked like Johnny Carson, so he had a type. Yeah. 352 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: But he noticed while he was flirting with Tom and 353 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 2: they were talking about Boston and New York and the 354 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 2: Red Sox, Tom's attention was elsewhere that Tom was sort 355 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 2: of eyeing a man standing by the piano. It was 356 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 2: New York in the early nineties, so there were always 357 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: more fish in the sea. And the man flirting with 358 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: Tom thought, you know, let him go and maybe I'll 359 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 2: circle back and maybe i'll have a shot later. And 360 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 2: so he goes downstairs, and you know, when he comes 361 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 2: back up, Tom is talking to this mysterious man by 362 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: the piano. Eventually those two lead together, and decades later, 363 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: when I talked to him, he said when he had 364 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: heard that Tom had been murdered, his first reaction was, 365 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: you know, why didn't I try a little harder. 366 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: I'm talking with author Elon Green about his new book 367 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: Last Call, a true story of love, lust and murder 368 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: In Queer, New York. A serial killer is stalking men 369 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: who frequent gay bars in New York City in the 370 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: late eighties and early nineties. Police have discovered two victims, 371 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: and they're beginning to suspect that there could be more 372 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: to come. Investigators now realize there is maybe not a 373 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: serial killer, but a multiple murderer. At most, We've got 374 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: two bodies at this point. Do the New Jersey investigators 375 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: have better luck than the Philadelphia investigators then did with Peter? 376 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: Do they somehow get closer to figuring this out before 377 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: the next body is found. 378 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: They had also looked for fingerprints on the garbage bags 379 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 2: they were doing the fingerprinting and some kind of mobile unit, 380 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 2: And my understanding is that the chamber was not airtight 381 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 2: and so no usable fingerprints were lifted from the garbage bags. 382 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 2: And once again, because nobody could describe the suspect in 383 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 2: any great detail, and they didn't really know anything about him. 384 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: Those investigators hit a dead end to. 385 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: The last time somebody really saw Peter or where he 386 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: had interacted with a lot of other people had been 387 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: the townhouse. 388 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 2: Right, that's correct. 389 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: So this man at the piano is not a regular 390 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: at the townhouse because the musician would have recognized him, 391 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: the bartender's right, wouldn't people have recognized him if he 392 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: were a regular. 393 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: The piano player did know who he was. There's a 394 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 2: difference between knowing who someone is and being able to say, ah, 395 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 2: he went home with the murdered man. 396 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: We have now two victims. Where do we go from here? 397 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 2: The next year, in nineteen ninety three, you have Anthony 398 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 2: Edward Morrero who he was sworn in Puerto Rico and 399 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: he grew up in Philadelphia. The little that is known 400 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: about his life is fairly bleak. It never really got 401 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 2: going and at some point he began doing sex work 402 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 2: in Manhattan. Was never particularly high end. Sometimes it would 403 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 2: be hustling in clubs and bars, and sometimes it be outside. 404 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 2: And probably on his worst days, he was in a 405 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: Port Authority bus terminal on the second floor, turning ten dollars. 406 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 2: It's not at all clear where he met the murderer. 407 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 2: I suspect it was not at port authority, but most 408 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 2: likely in or outside of one of the bars in 409 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 2: the East fifties. Very little is known about Anthony, and 410 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 2: it is an endless frustration for me that his was 411 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 2: a life that I was not able to flesh out 412 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: in the book with any real success. I used a 413 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 2: private investigator, forensic genealogist Elon Wow. I mean, I'm pretty 414 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 2: good at finding the little threads in people's life, and 415 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 2: I couldn't really do it with him. I may have 416 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: gotten his brother on the phone, but I can't prove it. 417 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: I think part of it is that I don't really 418 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 2: trust what I think. I do know for certain the 419 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 2: social Security number that is on the books as being 420 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 2: for a woman in Washington, d C. 421 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: What an anonymous life he's led, Yes. 422 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 2: I mean I think he was on the fringe of 423 00:23:58,680 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: the fringe. 424 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: What a different type of victim this man was, Yes. 425 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: And that's sort of what I mean when I say 426 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: that there was no real type in any conventional sense. 427 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: They didn't look alike. Anthony was kind of hefty, whereas 428 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: Peter Anderson was skeletal. 429 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: So where is Anthony found? How is that discovery made? 430 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: Anthony's also found in New Jersey. He was found by 431 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 2: a man who was just walking down the road. He 432 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 2: was looking for I believe it was a blimp. There 433 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: was supposed to be a blimp in the area and 434 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 2: he wanted to see if he could find it. He 435 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 2: didn't find the blimp, but he did find this body, 436 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 2: and it was Donald Gibberson who called the New Jersey 437 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 2: State Troopers. It didn't take them too long to put 438 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 2: that murder together with Thomas Mulkayhes the prior year. I 439 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 2: would say that they also connected it to Peter's death 440 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety one, but actually I'm not certain about that. 441 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: There was always a little bit of disagreement among the 442 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 2: investigators about whether Peter's death ought to be included in 443 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 2: the series of murders. 444 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: Is Anthony's body in the same condition as Tom's body 445 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: was totally dismembered? 446 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: Yes, I don't remember if it was the same color 447 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 2: of bags, but it was the same number of bags, 448 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 2: packaged and nodded in the same way. And eventually a 449 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: medical examiner would observe that the way they were double 450 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: knotted resembled how he himself when he was in med 451 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: school with double knot bags. And he said, it's kind 452 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: of interesting how this is being done and suggests that 453 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: perhaps this is being done by a medical professional of 454 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: some kind. 455 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: So I'll tell you something funny about the book that 456 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: I did. American Sherlock, the forensic scientist in the twenties, 457 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: did one of the first profiles of someone and he 458 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: was able to figure out that a killer was a 459 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: professional baker based on the way that he had lettered 460 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: the ransom note. And the forensic scientist Oscar Heinrich said, 461 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: a murderer is a murderer, but they'll never stop being 462 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 1: a baker. It's a habit that you can't get out of, 463 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: and it gets transferred whether you're killing somebody or you're 464 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: decorating a cake. 465 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: That's wonderful. 466 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: So I thought that was so interesting. The medical examiner 467 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: is making a note that kind of says this might 468 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: be someone who's connected to the medical field. So they 469 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: identify Anthony, but I'm assuming they have the same look 470 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: you do in piecing together his life and really trying 471 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 1: to trace his steps. No credit cards, I'm assuming that kind. 472 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 2: Of thing that didn't really seem to much factor into 473 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 2: the investigation. They found a man that was friends with him, 474 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 2: probably was one of the last people to see him alive, 475 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 2: and eventually they spend most of their time actually running 476 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: down the Johns because they realize, you know, it's the 477 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 2: Johns who probably know Anthony best, and so that takes 478 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 2: them to Connecticut, and they also go into Philadelphia because 479 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: they want to talk to Anthony's brother. They do a 480 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: fair amount of work, but in the end, especially with Anthony, 481 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: where he's not going to be somebody that people either 482 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: will remember or admit to remembering, there's only so much 483 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: they can do. 484 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: But this is ninety three cell phones. I didn't get 485 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: a cell phone till I think ninety five, so no 486 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: cell phones may be a beeper. How do you track 487 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: down john's in nineteen ninety three. That can't be easy. 488 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 2: It's not easy. But other sex workers who knew Anthony 489 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: knew who his John's were. Okay, they would say, you know, 490 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: there's so and so who picks him up every now 491 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 2: and then and takes him out of town for the weekend. 492 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 2: And then there's you know so and so brings him 493 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 2: home and is an actor and they had leads. 494 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: Could they determine how these guys died? They were dismembered, 495 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: but how were they killed? 496 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: It tended to be either strangulation or stabbing. 497 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: Both are very personal. We have one in ninety one, 498 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,239 Speaker 1: the second one in ninety two, and the third one 499 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: in ninety three. Does something happen in ninety four? 500 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 2: No, there is a fourth murderer in ninety three. Yeah, okay, 501 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: this one is different for a lot of reasons. A 502 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: man named Michael Sakara is picked up at the Five Oaks, 503 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 2: which as the Piano Bar down on Grove Street in 504 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 2: the West Village. And this time, you know, Michael is 505 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: very different from the other man. He's not a tourist. 506 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 2: He lives and works in Manhattan. And he's also not 507 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: remotely on the fringe. He's a beloved regular at the bar, 508 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 2: loved by his friends and his ex lover's, you know, 509 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 2: his sister. He wasn't somebody that people looked askance at. 510 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: It's late one night after work and it's getting to 511 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: be near closing time. It's last call. A man walks 512 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 2: into a bar and he's introduced by Michael to the 513 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 2: bartender as Mark the nurse or John the nurse. She 514 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 2: was never quite sure about this, but either way, he 515 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 2: shows his face in the bar, and he allows himself 516 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: to be introduced as a nurse, and he was seen 517 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: leaving with Michael, not just by the bartender but also 518 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: by two panhandlers outside of the bar who saw him 519 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 2: get into a car with him. So at this point 520 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: you have to either say that the murderer is not 521 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 2: as smart as he thinks he is, or he's brazen, 522 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 2: or he just doesn't give a shit. 523 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: So what happens? 524 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: Not that long after Michael's body is found in Rockland County, 525 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 2: it takes a little while to find the entire body. 526 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: The first bags with his body are found by a 527 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 2: hot dog vendor in Haverstraw in New York. A few 528 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 2: days later, the rest of his body is found by 529 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: a fireman and an aspiring policeman who notices the bags 530 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 2: when he's out for a walk. In the case of Michael, 531 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 2: it didn't take them very long to figure out who 532 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: he was and where he been. Because Michael was an 533 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 2: alcoholic and he went to the Five Oaks either five 534 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: or six nights a week. He was a creature of habit. 535 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: He worked at the New York Law Journal. There were 536 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: very few places that he ever went to on any 537 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: given day. This was something different for the police. They 538 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: could establish a routine. Moreover, this was a different sort 539 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: of case because they had people who could say that 540 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 2: they had spent time in the presence of the murderer 541 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: and had even talked to him. 542 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: How did they describe him? 543 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: The nurse They tended to describe him as kind of unremarkable, 544 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: not short, not tall, not skinny, not fat. 545 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, average, that's the worst, you know. 546 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: He didn't even drive an interesting car. But the detectives 547 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: realized that they had far more to work with than 548 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 2: they had with any of the other victims. So this 549 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 2: is where the case takes an important, although not decisive turn. 550 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 2: They form a task force. 551 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: After four murders, they finally form a task force. 552 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 2: Yes, and it took way too long. Rockland County Prosecutor's 553 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: Office forms the task force with the new Jersey State Police. 554 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: The NYPD is sort of dragged, kicking and screaming into 555 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: the task force. Pennsylvania State Police are sort of tangentially involved, 556 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 2: and then there's a couple of others. They bring in 557 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,239 Speaker 2: the police forces. Where the bodies were were left, but 558 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 2: the bulk of the work from there on out gets 559 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 2: done by the detectives in the Rockland County Prosecutor's Office 560 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: and the New Jersey State Police. The NYPD doesn't really 561 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 2: get anything done in this case, and so the task 562 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 2: force is together for oh two and a half months 563 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: and they interview hundreds of people. They spend their time 564 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 2: looking for Mark's and John's and male nurses. They get 565 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 2: a tip the suspect lives in Stotton Island works at 566 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: Mount sina So then they subpoena the records for all 567 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,479 Speaker 2: the male nurses at Mount Sinai who live in Stanton Island. 568 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: In hindsight, they keep getting sort of a little bit 569 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: closer and closer, but of course they don't know that, 570 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: and they feel compelled to follow all sorts of leads 571 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: and not to lean too heavily in one direction. They 572 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: find a male nurse named Mark, who they knew had 573 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 2: gone to the townhouse and who lived in Stotton Island, 574 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 2: and so when they identify him, you know, there's a 575 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 2: bit of a problem because he's on vacation in Provincetown. 576 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: And so they stick flyers under his door and say 577 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: look as soon as you come back. We've got to 578 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 2: come to Rockland County because we want to talk to you. 579 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: Eventually he does come back, you know, they bring him 580 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 2: in and put him in the box and they talk 581 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: for hours, and the detectives are getting frustrated because Mark 582 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: the nurse is not really doing a great deal to 583 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: rule himself out. But it doesn't seem to be taking 584 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: it particularly seriously, and as a detective later said to me, 585 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 2: he was kind of fucking with us. 586 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: Oh gosh. 587 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 2: And they don't rule him out, but they also can't 588 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 2: really rule him in, so they let him go. And 589 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: so eventually, as close as they get, the task force 590 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: fizzles out. And that is that. For about six years. 591 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: Is there media attention? Is there just outrage in the 592 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: media over this serial killer? 593 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: Nothing was published about the task Force while it was 594 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 2: going on. They would send out these daily reports at 595 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: the end of the day or the first thing in 596 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: the next morning, and they would be recaps of the 597 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 2: work that hadn't been done. You know, we talked to 598 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: so and so. Our plan today is to talk to 599 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 2: so and so. This is how many people we've talked to. 600 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: On the last page of each of these daily reports, 601 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: it says, do not share with the media. H okay, 602 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: And they were pretty good about that. Stories about these 603 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: killings don't really catch on. They not really pursued once 604 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: the task force goes cold, and that's pretty much. 605 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: Yet, how does it get hot? 606 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 2: It gets hot for two different reasons. The biggest reason 607 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 2: is that Tom Mulkahe's wife, Margaret, was a dogged advocate 608 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 2: for her husband, wonderful to the extent that I felt 609 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 2: the book had a hero. Margaret was the hero in 610 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 2: my proposal. I had an entire chapter about Margaret because 611 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: I thought she was just extraordinary and she never let 612 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 2: it go, and she even went so far as to 613 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: hire a private investigator. And one day, the New Jersey 614 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 2: State Troopers got a call from this private investigator and 615 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 2: then finally got a call from Margaret herself, basically saying, 616 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 2: what the hell is wrong with you? Guys? Get back 617 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 2: on this case, and so they do. All the detectives 618 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: credit Margaret with focusing them. The other thing that happens 619 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 2: is once the detectives have regrouped, one of the New 620 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 2: Jersey State Troopers had been home one night watching TV 621 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 2: and there was a TV show I think it was 622 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: called The New Detectives. 623 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: I love that series. 624 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 2: In one of the episodes, there's a discussion of a 625 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 2: fingerprinting processing method called vacuum metal deposition. Wasn't a new method, 626 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 2: but it was not one that was widely used. So 627 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: the next day he came into the squad room and 628 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 2: told his boss about it, and they had friends up 629 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 2: in Toronto, the Toronto Police Service, and that the the 630 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 2: Canadians had a vacuum metal deposition machine, and so they 631 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,720 Speaker 2: contacted the head of the lab, Alan Pollard, who said, 632 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 2: you know, feel free to come up and drop off 633 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 2: your bags and we'll process them for nothing. And not 634 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 2: all of the bags proved to be of use because 635 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 2: one of the notable things that had happened, and it 636 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 2: was not written about at all contemporaneously, was that the 637 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 2: mercurial medical examiner in Rockland County refused to turn over 638 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 2: the bags to the New Jersey Troopers. So the evidence 639 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: essentially curdled and became useless because he never dried out 640 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 2: the bags. Boy, and you can imagine what would happen 641 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,399 Speaker 2: to garbage bags like that if they're not dried out 642 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 2: and properly preserved. So years later, when these bags were 643 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 2: delivered to Toronto. They were pronounced useless, but the rest 644 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 2: of the bags, over the next several weeks or months 645 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 2: were processed. The head of the lab came in on 646 00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 2: Saturdays and went to work. He managed to extract quite 647 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 2: a few fingerprints from these garbage bags. 648 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: What are they able to compare those prints to? Is 649 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: it Department of Motor Vehicle Fingerprints? Did the thumb prints? 650 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: Did they do that? 651 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 2: Back then? 652 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: In two thousand. 653 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 2: They took these prints and they made dozens of individual 654 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 2: packets which they proceeded to send out not just to 655 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 2: every single state crime lab, but also Interpol, the FBI. 656 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 2: One of those packets is sitting on the desk of 657 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 2: a fingerprint analyst in Maine, and now we're talking I 658 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 2: guess two thousand. She reads this letter at the top 659 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: explaining the nature of the crimes. Ordinarily, I think she 660 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 2: would have put the prints to the back of the pile, 661 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 2: because this is for an outside agency and other cases 662 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 2: not her primary responsibility. But for one reason or another, 663 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 2: and also because quite frankly, she was just very sharp 664 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 2: and ambitious and hadn't been on the job for very long, 665 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: she decided to tackle this immediately, and so she takes 666 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: the fingerprints and enters them into APHIS, which was not 667 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 2: a nationwide database. It was Maine, New Hampshire, and I 668 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 2: think one other state. And she happened to be doing 669 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 2: this while she was sitting next to sort of an apprentice, 670 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 2: and she said to the young apprentice, we're going to 671 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 2: do this, but it's a waste of time. We've never 672 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 2: gotten any matches, never gotten any hits in APHIS for 673 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 2: outside an outside agency for these fingerprints, and you know 674 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 2: it's not going to start now. And so they they 675 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 2: enter about a dozen prints. The APHIS system kicks back 676 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 2: about I think four potential matches for each fingerprint, something 677 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 2: like that, and she begins to look at them, and 678 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 2: to her immense shock, they start to look good, and 679 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 2: so she goes through them one by one and finds 680 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 2: that they start to match. So at this point she 681 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: knows that there are these matching prints, but she doesn't 682 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 2: know precisely what they're matching too. So she takes these 683 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,359 Speaker 2: prints and brings them I think it was really down 684 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 2: the road to the state Bureau of Identification and they 685 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 2: pull up the case that the prints are attached to, 686 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 2: and it's a murderer from nineteen seventy three. 687 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: On part two of my interview with author Elon Green. 688 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 2: I think it's strains belief to think that he did 689 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: not murder anybody between nineteen seventy three and nineteen ninety one. 690 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: YEP. 691 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 2: Given how many people he killed in such a short 692 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 2: period of time between nineteen ninety one and nineteen ninety three, 693 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 2: it seems unlikely to me. 694 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 695 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 696 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis and 697 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer. 698 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: Ella Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does 699 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink 700 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen 701 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. 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