WEBVTT - Hydrogen 101 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:02.880 This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switch It 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.400 on the B n F Podcast. Today, I speak with 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.479 Martin Tangler, who is our lead hydrogen analyst here at 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:11.959 B and F, and today we're going to talk about 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:15.120 well hydrogen, which has been a pretty buzzy topic as 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:18.040 of late. But rather than go into detail on something 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.040 specific or technical, we're going to zoom out way out. 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.440 For example, it seems like every time I turn around, 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.880 there's a new color associated with the hydrogen color wheel. 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.120 Of course, there's been green and blue hydrogen, but what 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:35.839 about pink, yellow, or gray? I could keep going, but 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.240 you get the idea. Martin recently wrote a research note 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:43.280 titled Hydrogen for Beginners, Everything you Need to Know, where 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:47.400 he breaks down this hydrogen primer into history, physics, and 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.120 economics in order to see the future of this clean 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:53.960 burning molecule and to understand how it might fit with 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.520 some of the hard to abate sectors. We're going to 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.040 start with the fundamentals. For Bloomberg subscribers who want to 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.040 read this or see some of the charts that Martin made, 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.880 you'll be able to find it on the Bloomberg terminal 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.280 at B NF Go at b enof dot com or 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.360 on our mobile app. As a reminder, B andF does 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:13.959 not provide investment or strategy advice, and we've got a 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:16.880 complete disclaimer at the end of the show. But now 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:27.840 let's talk about hydrogen. Martin, thank you for joining today. 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:30.880 Thank you. So we're here to talk about hydrogen. We've 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.240 done a few hydrogen podcasts in the past, and they 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:36.760 were on very specific topics. But today we're going to 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.640 try something different. We're going to zoom way out and 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:44.520 we're going to talk about We'll try to in one 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:50.680 show explain the basics of hydrogen and how this market works. 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.400 Because there's so much buzz around it at the moment, 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.880 Can you explain to everybody why you ended up writing 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:01.880 a primary research report when we have historically gone much 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.440 deeper on topics. So I think that's exactly the reason 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:11.000 why we have historically gone very deep on topics with 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.760 let's say an assumption that the average B and EF 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:20.160 either would understand most of the basics, and then we 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.600 had a couple of conversations, you know, with our clients, 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.200 even internally with our colleagues, there turns out to be 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.959 a pretty wide range of people in terms of how 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:37.560 well they understand hydrogen for obvious reasons, and so we 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.959 thought that writing a report that helps everybody be on 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.600 the same page, and after they've read it, then they 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.840 can read any other b NF report on hydrogen and 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:53.320 feel like they can understand it, feel that they get 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.920 the context. So that was really the purpose of the report. 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.320 What I realized today when preparing for our discussion was 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.040 that there are certain colors in the hydrogen wheel. You 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.000 may like referred to as a wheel of different colors. 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.960 There's certain colors within hydrogen that I understand much better 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.760 than others, and we will come to that and discuss 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:17.200 what each of those is. But let's take another giant 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.320 step back and let's start with history. So I think 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.680 many of us associate hydrogen with Zeppelin's. You know, this 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.560 is a natural resource that has been around for some time, 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.200 So let's talk about when it kind of first came 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.440 on the radar and where hydrogen has been in the past, 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.720 so that we can talk about the potential in the future. 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:41.600 The idea of using hydrogen is absolutely not new. It 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:46.320 goes back to at least the eighteen hundreds, when in 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:51.040 eighteen seventy four French writer, as you'll learn, wrote a 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.720 book in which he said that one day hydrogen will 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:59.160 provide an inexhaustible source of heat and light. That's kind 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.520 of how it's translates. Have you read this book. I 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:06.040 have not read this book. I've just I've just from it. 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.240 But you know what, it's on my reading list. I 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.000 definitely want to read it. Jewels were in the visionary. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.200 I will add it to my book club reading. Absolutely. 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.520 So that's the idea of using hydrogen for energy, right. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.320 Hydrogen is a very energy dense molecule, which is something 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.800 that I think we'll talk about later as well. But 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:26.960 then the idea of using hygen for energy, you know, 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.359 there have been a couple couple of waves in the middle. 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.320 You know, you mentioned the Zeppelins. Then they have been 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.320 you know, the US and the Soviets. Apparently we're testing 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.000 planes that would fly on hydrogen in the nineteen fifties, 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.320 which hasn't exactly worked out. But then a hundred years later, 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:47.120 in nineteen seventy four, the roadent Track magazine in the 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.080 US published on its cover this thing that said hydrogen 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.000 new and clean fuel for the future. And the reason 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.160 they did it was because Back then, there was this 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.880 idea of using hydrogen as a fuel for cars because 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.880 it was in the middle of the oil crisis. Oil 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.279 was scarce or was expensive. People are looking for ways 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.520 to feel their that their vehicles without having to rely 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:13.800 on oil. But then all crisis finished, you know, hydrogen 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.960 cars didn't really go anywhere, and then we've got a 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.200 couple more of these waves throughout history. You know, George 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.919 bush Into in two thousand and three said that the 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:28.280 first car driven by a child born today could be 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.200 powered by hydrogen. So now if you fast forward to today, 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.560 there are about thirty thou cars globally that have been 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.719 sold that run on hydrogen. So maybe there's a a 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.560 child somewhere whose first card happens to be a totemm 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:44.640 ME RAI. But it's definitely more like the exception than 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.880 the rules. So there have been a lot of a 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:51.360 lot of waves of interest, but much less in terms 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:55.360 of actually following up on those waves with action in 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.280 terms of using hydrogen for energy. So they're definitely have 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.640 been these points where, oh, maybe hydrogen will be really 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.320 great for transport, and it is used in some spaces. 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.600 It is you know, you have hydrogen ferries being developed, 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:11.479 and you have different vehicles, land vehicles being using hydrogen. 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:13.440 We're seeing a few of them out there, but then 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:17.080 not quite yet beaten out certainly the internal combustion engine 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.120 or really batteries which seem to be taking off. So 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.599 the story of hydrogen is one where there just seems 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.760 to be this fever pitch of excitement in the industry 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.480 and then seeing whether or not it's actually going to 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.120 take hold. So let's talk a little bit about the 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.800 physical properties or the physics of hydrogen so that we 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.200 can understand kind of what we're dealing with before we 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.560 think about the future potential that it has and maybe 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:48.279 why there is all of this buzz. So with hydrogen, 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.479 where should we start? Should we start with the transport 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.520 or let's start with where we get it from? How 0:06:54.560 --> 0:07:00.280 does one find or create hydrogen currently? That's a really 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:05.479 good question, So there's at least two two ways to 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.880 answer this. It turns out that hydrogen is by far 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.880 the most abundant element in the universe, and I imagine 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.280 that many people listening to this podcast will have probably 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.520 heard that somewhere. But about three quarters of all the 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:22.920 chemical elements or you know, the particles in the universe 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:28.560 are hydrogen particles, but on Earth hydrogen does not appear 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:30.960 in its pure form in the Union. In the rest 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.320 of the universe, hydrogen is basically what makes up stars 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:35.800 together with helium, but on Earth we've got no stars. 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:40.600 Hydrogen is locked in other chemicals because it's a very 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.400 reactive gas, so it's either locked in water, so that's 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:50.320 H two oh. Familiar with that one, Yeah, yeah, drink 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:56.360 that every day. And hydrocarbons, which basically is another word 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:01.160 for fossil fuels, So example would be methane H four 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:06.760 another more complex hydrocarbon molecules from which then we can 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.520 extract hydrogen. So if we were to extract hygen from water, 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.560 then you need to use this process called electrolysis, which 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.880 means you pass electricity through water in a device that's 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.520 called an electrolyzer. On one end, hydrogen comes out. On 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.840 another end, oxygen comes out, so the H two and 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:29.080 the oh to come on on separate ends. If you 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:33.200 were to extract hydrogen from hydrocarbons such as methane, and 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.600 that's how we extract the vast majority of hydrogen today, 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:41.040 then for methane you could use this technology gold steam 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:48.240 methane reforming, which means you're bombarding methane molecules with very 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:53.040 hot steam and unlocking the hydrogen that way. But what 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.800 that does mean is that given that methane is the 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:01.079 hydrocarbon c H four, you've got the carbon molecules attaching 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.880 to oxygen and leaving a CEO to gas. So then 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.599 the hydrogen that we use today, and we use a 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:10.240 lot of hydrogen today something we can talk about as well, 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.880 not for energy, we're using it for the chemistry of it. 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.040 We're using a lot of it that's very corton intensive, 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.160 So let's go into that. So that we're talking about 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.880 this hydrogen as a potentially clean burning fuel, but the 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.600 way that we're producing it today, it's not there yet. 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:31.080 And you were mentioning that there are uses today where 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.679 the chemical properties are critically important. So it's not being 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:35.480 used as a source of energy, it's being used for 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.360 something else. Where are we currently using hydrogen where is 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:43.200 it critical? There are really three sectors today that use 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:47.960 the majority of the hydrogen that we produce. That is 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:53.319 oil refining or hydrogen is used for sulfur removal. Then 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:58.400 it's ammonia, which is used for fertilizers. So ammonia is 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.640 n H three, so it's one nitrogen and three hydrogen molecules, 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:06.680 so you cannot produce ammonia without hydrogen. And then there's 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:11.360 a methanol which is c H three oh h. Again 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:15.120 it's a chemical that's used for many different things. Cannot 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:19.200 produce it physically without hydrogen because it contains hydrogen. So 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.280 that's really the three biggest sectors that use hydrogen today. 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:26.840 But then hydrogen is produced from mostly steam methane reforming 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.800 releasing that CEO two, and therefore it's not a solution 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:33.720 for the carbonization, which is how hydrogen is being presented 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:35.640 a lot today, but it's actually part of the problem 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.160 that will itself need to be solved. So there's the 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.520 uses today and then the potential for tomorrow. About how 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.520 much hydrogen, you're saying, there's quite a bit of it. 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.000 How much hydrogen are we already using today? So if 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.960 you sum up the hydrogen that we use as pure 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:54.280 hydrogen nos H two and the hydrogen we use mixed 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.920 in with with other gases like sing gas, for example, 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:02.840 we're using about a hundred and twenty million tons of 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.160 hydrogen per year. Now when I heard this number for 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:08.120 the first time, I just thought, what what does that mean? 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.600 HydroD and twenty million tons sounds like a lot. But 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:13.520 but how do you even quantify? Is how do you 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:18.440 visualize it? And so I ransom calculations. In terms of 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.480 the amount of energy that that this hydrogen contains, it's 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.280 about half of the amount of energy that the US 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:29.080 consumes every year in the form of natural gas. So 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:32.360 it's a lot. And if you were to fit that 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.079 hydrogen into a volume, it would be about one thousand, 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:41.680 three hundred cubic kilometers, which is roughly the equivalent of 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:45.560 about eleven dead seas. So it's a heck of a 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:50.640 lot of hydrogen that we're already using today eleven dead 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.120 seas like that. So okay, so we've got hydrogen that 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.880 we need to create. How about the naturally occurring hydrogen. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.120 I was at a conference last week or somebody at 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.200 this sudden they said, Oh, there might be hydrogen that 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.599 we don't actually have to produce and that we can 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.640 just naturally extract. Is this actually the case is? There's 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.520 got a lot of potential. So if you serve around 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.600 the internet, you will find that even you you will 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.559 find even academic papers that talk about having discovered the 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:24.240 accumulations of natural hydrogen so H two in its pure form. 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.880 Some of them even claimed to be using that hydrogen 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.839 in in some form or shape for energy. But they're 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.800 very small examples for the moment. So as far as 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.280 we can tell right now, most hydrogen on Earth is 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:46.079 locked into water or hydrocarbons. There might be some deposits 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.520 of pure hydrogen, we just haven't found them to be 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.240 large enough to really be economically viable. Of course, if 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:57.000 we do, should that happen, then that could, you know, 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.200 change the game quite quite significantly. But for the moment, 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.920 it would appear that these are more kind of an 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:09.600 anecdotal piece of evidence rather than a sign of something bigger. Okay, 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.120 so we're gonna have to make it, and we're gonna 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.440 get back into that in a second. But let's let's 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:15.880 talk a little bit about the potential of what it 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.920 is that we want to use it for. So you 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.000 brought up transport in the past, and then you're talking 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.640 about chemical processes, but the real potential here has to 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.119 do with some of the hard to abate sectors, and 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.640 simply put, the hard to abate sectors and the ones 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.920 where we are having a hard time figuring out how 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.560 to decarbonize them. Which are these There's a lot of them, 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:40.560 to be honest, Uh, pretty much every sector is hard 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:46.960 to abate when when you think about it, really we 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:52.560 could talk about transport, especially planes and ships. Not getting 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.800 back the carbonized is going to be a challenge. We 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.520 could talk about power generation if you're being a research 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.559 which show that if you want to decarbonize your electricity 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.040 grid with just solar, wind and batteries, then you can 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.720 only get up to maybe carbon free, but then you 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.880 kind of gets stuck and you need some other technology 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.160 to get you all the way to carbon free, and 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.200 hydrogen could potentially be that, but there are other candidates too. 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.680 Then you could be using hydrogen as a source of 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.160 heat because it burns, and it burns very very hot, 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.400 So you could use it for steel production, cement production, 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:32.040 aluminum production, you could use it to heat buildings the 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.480 ones that we that that we live in or working. 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:38.160 And then of course hydrogen itself already works, already exists 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.320 as a feedstock for all those uh, sectors I've already 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:48.040 talked about, like all of refining, like fertilizers, some plastics 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.400 and these sectors well also need to be decarbonized with 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:55.000 clean hydrogen. So I have a friend who is involved 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.440 in developing hydrogen ferries at the moment, and I referenced 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.480 to the very big ending of the show the Zeppelin, 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.720 which is probably one of the most common things that 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:08.120 we know about. It's a very flammable gas. Was that 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.200 one of the main barriers that is standing in the 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.600 way of application in some of these industries or does 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.840 it have much more to do with the economics. I 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.760 would say it's mostly in most sectors, it's going to 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.000 be the economics more than it is the flammability. But 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.240 there certainly are some challenges when it comes to hydrogen safety. 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.800 It's not like we're not using flammable gases right now. 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.560 Natural gas which you probably use at home to to 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.200 heat your water and cook my porridge this morning, with 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.720 very flammable gas itself, but not not as flammable or 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.320 you know, it just has different properties. Hydrogen as different 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.800 properties from natural gas, just to put it simply, And 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:51.800 there have been a couple of studies that try to 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:57.080 compare the safety of hydrogen versus natural gas, and most 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.200 of them will tell you that the hydrogen would tend 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:04.360 to you know, holding every every other variable constant would 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:11.920 tend to cause more injuries or more explosions than natural gas. 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:16.240 So that's certainly something that will need to consider where 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.200 we're going to use this hydrogence. So if you're going 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.360 to be using your home for heating and for cooking, 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:23.960 of course taking this into account is going to be 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:29.520 absolutely essential you're going to be using that safely. I mean, 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.880 that makes a lot of sense. So may within these 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.720 hard to abate sectors may end up lending itself better 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.560 to some than others. But let's talk a little bit 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:41.800 about the emissions or lack thereof, associated with hydrogen for 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:44.360 the hard to abate sectors. So this question that needs 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.600 to be answered as it's currently produced. It's not a 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:53.880 net zero option. What needs to happen in order for 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:58.240 it to be made without emitting CEO two. So today 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.920 I've already said it. Most hydrogen is produced from methane 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:06.320 using steam methane reforming. Basically, methane is natural gas that 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.280 releases quite a lot of c O two. So for 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.800 every kilogram of hydrogen you produce, you get about nine 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:17.400 kilograms of c O two. If you're producing this hydrogen 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:20.960 the standard way, which is what's called gray hydrogen from 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.640 steam methane reforming. Now, the first thing you can do, 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.320 and that's the thing that a lot of companies who 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:31.760 happen to own these production facilities for gray hydrogen are 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.840 thinking about, is you could put a CCS carbon capture 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:40.000 and storage functionality on your on your gray hydrogen production, 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:44.560 then you could try to capture and store that carbon. Now, 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:49.040 you're unlikely to ever be able to capture of the carbon. 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.720 We tend to assume that typically six of your emissions 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.359 would be captured. Now, there have been some discussions recently 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:01.920 after a paper was published by academics from Cornell and 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.760 Stanford Universities that the emissions of blue hydrogen with CCS 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.240 might be a lot higher than we had originally thought, 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:14.080 but regardless, they would probably blue hydrogen would probably result 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:18.720 in in a less emissions than gray. But the whole 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.119 point in a lot of countries these days is getting 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:24.879 down to net zero. So you know, blue hydrogen capturing 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.800 of emissions emissions is still not gonna get you there. 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.600 So then your other options would be to use electrolysis 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.080 that's powered with electricity. That's uh that doesn't release any emissions, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.679 so of course that could be grain hydrogen produced from 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:44.640 electrolysis with renewables. It could be hydrogen produced from electrolysis 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:48.360 with nuclear power, for example, So those would be your 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.600 options for carbon free hygen. There are other technologies that 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.600 could produce hydrogen. Okay, so you started to get into 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:58.239 the Crayola box of colors on hydrogen. So let's just 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.479 spell that out for everybody, given that those listening today 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.480 want to know the basics of this industry. So green 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:06.879 is the one that I'm most familiar with. Green is 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:11.399 the renewable electricity produced hydrogen. But let's let's go around 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.680 the wheel, so turquoise is next. Yeah, well, I would 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:16.880 take a step back first and just make it very 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.440 clear that hydrogen itself is a colorless gas. So hydrogen 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:24.080 has absolutely no color in the first place, and these 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:28.760 colors are only used as a shorthand to identify how 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.200 the hydrogen was produced. Some irony here in the color 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.560 wheel for hydrogen. It's completely colorless, yet we want to 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.200 use colors to explain it exactly. So you're right, And 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:43.800 the other colors that are out there include turquoise hydrogen, 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.919 which is a no, not not a standard way to 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.000 produce hydrogen today. It's quite uh, you know, it's quite 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:56.800 a nascent, quite a new technology where basically it's methane pyrolysis. 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.960 What you end up with is a hydrogen black carbon powder. 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.000 So that's kind of interesting that you end up with 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.679 carbon not as carbon dioxide, but as as a solid. 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.480 Then there's blue hydrogen, which we've already talked about, So 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:12.880 that's hydrogen from fossil fuels, the same may we produce 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:17.000 it today, but with carbon capture and storage. Okay. And 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.800 then there's the gray, which you also referred to, which 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.480 includes ccs. What else goes into the gray category? So 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.840 great gray is hydrogen that is produced from fossil fuels 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:33.360 waited out carbon capture and storage. That's it. It's just 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:39.359 made made without any real abatement technology associated with it. 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.200 So that's probably the most polluting and that's how we 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:44.960 produce most of our hydrogen today. And then we've moved 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:50.160 up to well, red is the color often associated sometimes 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.040 with nuclear so is that the color that's associated with 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.000 hydrogen there? This is really where it starts getting a 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.640 bit hazy. I wonder if hazy is a color too 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.000 but it is is the color that B and e 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.760 F likes to use to show nuclear in our reports. 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.040 But typically people who talk about hygiene from nuclear would 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.480 use the color pink. Oh okay, so we need to 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.119 we need to think about our colors slightly differently. And 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.440 then what about yellow and purple? And I mean, we're 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.439 got more colors to get through. There's all these different colors. So, 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:26.400 for example, purple and orange are both sometimes used as 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.920 colors to say that you're using you're producing hydrogen from 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:34.680 biomass gasification, which technically could also be another way of 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:38.520 producing CEO two free hydrogen if you've got a sustainable 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.080 source of biomass. No, I like, I'm saying, these colors 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:44.639 they get hazier and hazier. You know, why does it 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.360 have to be orange and purple? In are we are 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.879 we burning orange? Peel and lavender? Or you know? Is 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.560 it for every every different color of feats on the 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.679 burning we're getting a different we're getting We're using a 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:58.919 different color. So you know, at B and EF we 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.800 prefer to away from using colors and just say no 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:07.360 hydrogen produced from bringewable electricity even better, hydrogen produced from 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:12.320 solar PV electricity, which is obviously more accurate than brain hydrogen, 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.600 So we prefer to use the you know, the more 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:18.560 accurate term of nif. That does lead me slightly less 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:21.280 confused when we do that, or when others in the 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:24.320 industry call it out, because otherwise it feels a little 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:28.320 bit too like a you know, session with barbaras and painting. Okay, 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:31.720 so here we go. Let's talk about the properties of hydrogen. 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:34.240 So let's bring that down into simple parts. You mentioned 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:39.840 that it's invisible, it's also odorless. What are the other 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.639 properties of hydrogen that we should know about. There's a 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.800 whole lot of them. It's not naturally occurring, so that's 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:49.520 something we've already discussed. On Earth, you have to extract 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:54.119 it from from something. It's very light. So one of 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.840 the things that you might that a lot of proponents 0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.040 of hydrogen might tell you, or that you know, if 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:02.280 you read a random article online, you might might read 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:06.880 that hydrogen is the most energy dense element in the 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:12.320 universe or on Earth, which is pretty much true per kilogram. 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:14.960 So if you if you take all the elements and 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:17.119 you you look at the per kilogram, which one has 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:20.480 the most energy, then hydrogen is definitely at the top. 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:25.359 But the challenge is that if you want to fit 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:29.800 that kilogram into a reasonable amount of space, that's where 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:35.679 you really run into problems. So hydrogen takes up about 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:40.199 three to four times the space compared to natural gas 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.160 to store the same amount of energy, so that really 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:47.800 causes some challenges when it comes to storing and moving 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.280 hydrogen around in in the tank. The hydrogen is a 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:54.920 low boiling point, so one of the ideas to shrink 0:23:54.920 --> 0:24:00.320 the volume of hydrogen is to liquefy it by cooling 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:02.600 it down, the same way you do with natural gas 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:06.400 to form l n G. But natural gas cools down 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:09.440 that it becomes a liquid that minus one sixty two 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:13.000 degrees hydrogen becomes a liquid that minus two hundred and 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:17.359 fifty three degrees celsius. Wow, that is a level of 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:20.920 cold I am not even considered. Yeah, it turns out 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:24.639