WEBVTT - Jack Devine on the Afghan War’s Financial Disaster (Podcast) 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:07.160 This is Mesters in Business with very Renaults on Bluebird Radio. 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.000 This weekend on the podcast, I have an extra special 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.840 guest returning to the show, Jack Divine, thirty two year 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:19.320 veteran of the CIA. His resume is just too long 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.840 to to go over. We talked about a lot of it. Uh. 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:27.040 He was instrumental in pushing the Russians out of Afghanistan 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:32.320 in the nineteen eighties. UH. He helped run the Counternarcotics 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.680 division for the CIA. He He's just had so many 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.479 roles within the intelligence world. Um. Really quite quite an 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:46.040 astonishing career. His new book is all about Russia's aggression 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:50.520 against the West, not in the Cold War era but today, 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.720 and it's quite fascinating and very revealing, in particular how 0:00:55.760 --> 0:01:00.760 the Russians have so skillfully used social media to foment 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:07.440 unrest and anger and essentially turn Americans against each other. 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.480 They're not the only reason why the country is having issues, 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:16.160 but they are clearly pouring fuel on the fire. It's 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:20.880 quite fascinating. Really, a person with an endless amount of 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.560 of inside and knowledge from a unique position with no 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:31.600 further ado. My conversation with the CIA's Jack Divine, this 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:36.520 is Mesters in Business with very Renaults on Bloomberg Radio. 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.240 This week, I have an extra special guest. His name 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:43.680 is Jack Divine. He is a thirty two year veteran 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.600 of the Central Intelligence Agency, where he has served as 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:52.040 Acting Director and Associate Director of Operations. He was the 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:56.800 Chief of the Latin American Division and head of Counternarcotic Center, 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.200 where he was awarded the CIA's Meritorious Officer Award and 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:05.640 Distinguished Intelligence Medal. He has written a number of books 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:11.160 on the intelligence fields, his most recent Spymaster's Prism, the 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:15.640 Fight against Russian Aggression. He was chief of the Afghan 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:20.920 Task Force and in seven helped drive the Stinger anti 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:25.200 aircraft program UH, the handheld missile that took out Russian 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.560 helicopters and really changed the course of the war, sending 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:33.639 the Russians fleeing from Afghanistan. It couldn't be more timely 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:40.080 given our recent withdrawal. Jack Divine, Welcome back to Bloomberg Break. 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.760 So let's start a little bit with your background, and 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.519 but I guess I really have to lead with Afghanistan. 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.200 Tell us a little bit about your perspective as to 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.800 what's going on in that nation and where the United 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.160 States went wrong other than the fact that we were 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.360 there for two full decades. Well, I think it all starts. 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.200 It's like many things. How do you get into something 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.840 in the first place off and determines how you get 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.760 how do you get out years later? So I think 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:15.600 we all were quite shaking, and that's an understatement. By 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.680 the attack against the Twin Towers in New York and 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:25.359 the Pentagon and uh Alkida attacked, and this country, our 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:30.359 beloved country. Everybody wanted to get the people responsible immediately 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:32.920 and go get in Latin. And we knew he was 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:38.160 in uh he was in Afghanistan, so naturally there was 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:44.400 a program. The US government immediately decided we're going to 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.000 go get them, and within hours the c I had 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.160 a team on the on the ground already had on 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.960 the ground, but a team coming in to work with 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.960 some of the Mujadine leaders that in the Northern Alliance, 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.720 which I had worked with years earlier, and the Special 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.720 Forces were coming in right behind them. They would have 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:04.560 been there at the same time, as I understand that 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.200 the paperwork got tied up, but the Special Forces wanted 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:11.080 to be there and they did a magnificent job. And 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:16.480 uh actually you know, eleven took place, but you know 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:20.520 we we the government fell, the Taliban government fell. People 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.640 forgot this in November and in November seven, so you 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.640 know that early covert action program now bombing. The very 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.080 first thing was bombing in October. And the reason I 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.400 mentioned this is, you know, we basically had them brought down. 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:42.760 Um and are overt military arrived a night the nineteenth 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.120 of October. The government fell, you know, a few days later. 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:49.039 So did we really need an army? As a question, 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.880 I wrote an op ed piece that's still floating around 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:57.280 today in July of the C I a solution, which is, 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.040 let's not put it. We're not We're not going to 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.560 win with the army on the ground. We should be 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.800 working to get ben Latin and then where our interests apply, 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.520 we're covertly. So I think the big judgment call was 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.159 that we needed to put our army on the ground. 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.760 Once we made that decision, then your next there's no 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:19.760 question that we could drive them off the field, and 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.479 we did. The question is how do you get out? 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.960 And you know, the thought that we would be there 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:31.880 twenty years later was probably not on anybody's mind. So UM, 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.960 fast forward, we get up the hundred sousand troops too 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.359 in the Obama administration. Then you know it started to 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.080 bring it down, and you know there's a big argument, 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:43.760 big argument today issued that it's not a big argument. 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.880 I think the bast majority if people down the States 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.520 think it is time to leave. But I think what 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.840 we were looking at isn't so much that we were 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:55.760 leaving the last few days. I think they really criticism. 0:05:56.080 --> 0:06:00.200 Criticism is on how did we manage you know, the 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.880 exit and could have been avoided. I think we're a 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.320 tremendous number of progressional inquiries and so on about this, 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:09.479 and this will be a lingering issue. So I don't 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:11.800 think it's about this was the time to get out. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.440 I mean I've been saying this for a long time. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.839 It's you know, how do you get out? And being 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.880 careful not to get into things where we put troops 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.279 on the ground, because that is a longer commitment. And 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.160 I'm an advocate for using covert and my whole career 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:34.599 was devoted to covert action. I am a believer that 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:37.440 even with troops on the ground, if we would have 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:42.480 remained focused on Afghanistan and come up with a plan 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.640 to do we have to do and then get out 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.040 of that country. It could have been a much cheaper, shorter, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.279 more effective war. How accurate is it to say that 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.440 the adventure in Iraq, and I use those words purposefully, 0:06:57.960 --> 0:06:59.839 a war of choice that had nothing to do with 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.800 on eleven that distracted us from the task at hand 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:09.359 in Afghanistan is part of the factors that led to 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:13.480 this snaffoo that we see currently going on today. I 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:15.960 think historians, when they go back, because you need to 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.360 get away from it, everyone's committed. They had a role, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.240 so they're defending their roles and that's but I think 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.119 when history looks back, we're gonna have a hard time 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.200 explaining exactly why we went into a rock because they 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:33.760 didn't have weapons of fast destruction right um, and there 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.520 was nothing Even if they had them, there was nothing 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.120 indicating that it was going to be used against the 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.680 United States. And the proof of the Puddy became they 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:45.280 didn't happen, so they certainly weren't wasn't an eminent threat. 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:47.200 So I think there were a lot of us at 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.680 that time that scratched our head about why we're going 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.320 to rocket? Rocket is nothing new without Kaida, so you know, 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:55.480 and this is I'm not a Johnny come late on this. 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.320 I was stumped at the time. Um, and I go 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.680 into that both of my books that you know. I 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.840 think it was one of the great errors in our 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.080 our foreign policy and youth of our tremendous force. I 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.320 mean so, um, you know, we spent a lot of 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:19.480 time and money and most importantly our precious military personnel. 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.679 So I think it was a great distraction. We missed 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.160 the main point, which was go getting bed I was 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.640 or another rockted where I was very critical of our 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:33.400 government for not getting him. We took years to find him. 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:38.480 He was in Pakistan. So invading Afghanistan, uh, you know, 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.880 when the guy was in Pakistan is uh. You know, 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.640 we again restorans and book back and scratched their head. However, 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.280 I was for going after him and going into Afghanistan. 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.959 But as I said covertly, but the Iraq War is 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:54.680 one thing that I've learned over the years in the CIA, 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.440 were all consuming that there was. Once you decide you're 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.640 going to commit to a war, almost all your other activities, 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.840 and particularly in a NaSTA security arena, are all driven 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.440 by that war. You stopped looking at less about Russia 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.800 and less about China though, it's it becomes all consuming 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.120 all of your personnel. They're hired against that mission. So 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:17.000 it all there's you know, institutions. It is the wars. 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:21.160 You know, when they drag on, they have tremendous change, 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:25.680 has tremendous change about your natural security structure, and there's 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:27.880 a long tail to it paying for it that it 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.120 was trillions of dollars are gonna be paid for by 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.680 our grandkids. So you know, I think history is gonna 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.600 be really hard on decision to go in and to 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.360 have stayed as long as we did. And you know, 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.480 there was universal support, so there's no wing to you 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.720 can blame it on. We probably gets the Democrats. The 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.960 President and I had to brief exchange. I mean, you know, 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.520 there weren't a lot of people shouting about going into 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.599 a rock at the time, and I just found it 0:09:55.200 --> 0:10:00.720 really um umbfound me that we we went in No. Eleven. 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:02.880 I think you could have invaded anywhere and would have 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.200 gotten support. And that's been some of the criticism of 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.280 the Bush Cheney administration. But let me circle back to 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.120 the point you just made about wars being all consuming 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:18.240 and leading us to take our eye off of other balls. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.000 That are in the air. Clearly the focus has been 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.520 on the Middle East for the past twenty years, since 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:27.559 certainly since nine eleven. But in Spymaster's Prison, the Fight 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:32.200 against Russian Aggression, you make a very cogent case that 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:37.400 Russia remains a dangerous adversary, that they weren't distracted by 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:41.120 what was going on in the Middle East, and that 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:46.680 they very capably built up assets against the United States, 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.640 which which they have been deploying quite successfully without a 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.080 whole lot of counter from us. To tell us about 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:57.160 the motivations that led you to write this new book, well, 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.520 a couple of really key questions, and in your point 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.559 that I mean a tackle, and I mean the first 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.240 one is, you know, it's not that I'm you know, 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.720 using Kentucky when they trying to figure out what happened 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.959 in terms of our attention. I mean very clearly in 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:18.480 our public records, the budget against you know, the Soviet Union, 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:22.840 if you will, and supposed to Russia drive from you 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:28.040 in the full ward down to ten percent. Now they're 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:32.000 building it back. And in the first book, Good Hunting, 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.760 I mentioned sort of at the end, not mentioned I 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.840 go into some lens that terrorism is going to be 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.200 with us, and in fact, it's been with us since 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:44.640 the beginning of time. But it spikes, and it's spiked 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.000 the nine eleven and isis and we had to do 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:51.480 what we had to do. But the real or bigger, arching, 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:56.160 over arching, longer issues will be the return of competition 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.800 among nation states, and that's where we are. The dialogue 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:04.360 is about China, Korea, Russia or on it. So that's 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.240 where the new national security emphasis. Can't take your eye 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.560 off of terrorism. But there was a clear trend, but 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:13.840 we were all in. I mean, when you put an 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.720 army on the ground and you get up the hundred 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:21.840 thousand troops and a hundred thousand contractors and billions of dollars, 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:26.080 so much effort goes into that that there's the government 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.800 isn't fungible in the sense that you know, you're gonna 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.640 have to take people off of something to cover it 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.040 and you have to hire new people. So I think 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.480 we became, you know, we felt that the big, the 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.000 big targets, we're not going to be the competitors that 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.559 there are today. China clearly has loomed large. That should 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.000 not have been a surprise. But your point, which is 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:51.360 a I think a really good one. Is we sort 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:56.560 of behind neglective. I could use that old phrase about Russia. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:00.080 It was somehow it wasn't the Soviet Union, so and 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.240 it wasn't didn't have the economy of China, has the 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.960 economy of Spain or Italy. We should worry less about it. 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.040 But no one stood back and said, well, who's actually 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.199 working against us? In ourn A secured another who's actually 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.720 operating against us and particularly United States? And this is 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.319 what drove me to the book, And that is when 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:27.319 I saw the elections in UH was again flabbergast that 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:31.760 not that the Russians were in collecting information and cyber 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.520 I mean, that's been going on and will continue to 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.320 go on and going on for as far as I 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:41.240 can see. What they did it was really different, a 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.040 size me change Grohich. I couldn't believe they did, which 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.280 is they took the information and used it politically inside 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.240 the United States. And that is not what happened to 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.560 Cold War. As I go into the book, there was 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.080 we've fought each other all around the world, but we 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.120 did not run big sophisticated covert action operations inside Russia 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.480 after Stalin, and they weren't rather a few books on 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:06.040 the screen. But this as a general principle understanding. They 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.960 were not operating United States in our political system, So 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.560 isn't so much that they were collecting the intelligence that 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:14.400 they were in there. And that's what drove me up 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.319 the wall. I wanted to screen from the rooftops and 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:22.720 pay attention. The Russians are deep into our cyber world, 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.280 the new world of combat, and they're very effective. They've 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.840 been doing this and they've had us. They've been penetrating 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:31.880 us for longer than the Chinese. And we can get 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:35.440 to that, but they're using it and we need to 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.680 respond to that. So that is the you know, Clarine 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.840 call if you will, from on the spy master's prison. 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.720 Let's talk a little bit about the competition between the 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.960 United States and Russia. The US is an open society. 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:54.720 We have a free press or robust constitution, a First 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:58.320 Amendment that guarantees freedom of the press. Does this put 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:03.280 us at a competitive disadvantage against those nations that would 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.440 take advantage of our freedoms and openness. It's a double 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.800 edged sword, and I will take the open, free, democratic 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.600 side of the sword in the sense that during the 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:20.040 Cold War, you know, we talked about the spying business. 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.960 Having that is our mantra brought many of the best 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:29.160 agents to us. The best supporters the world to help 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.800 us are allies to help us. Was that flag flying high? 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.120 How would you like there's been a Russian kg VH 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:42.560 I selling the economy in right? I mean, uh, your advantage. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.680 It's a tough sell, right, We're talking a lot of 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:46.520 people in business try and sell that, so it's a 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:51.200 great advantage. However, there is the other side of the coin, 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.600 which is if you want to we have a system 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:57.400 that looks broken in some ways. On this next point, 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.720 we need to get a consensus. And of teritarian governments, 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.000 you don't need a consensus, right, you can move more quickly. 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.400 The Chinese can move quickly. The Russians got the Iranians 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.200 because they don't have to have with the Congress and solve. 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.680 But I want to stick with Congress despite my misgivings 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.240 about some some parts of it. But my point is 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.080 when you get into the cyber the cyber type of world, 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:27.119 our openness provides a level of vulnerabilities that in warfare 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.800 gives them an edgement um and and I should add 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.520 just one point there not to get pustomisty. I think 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.400 we're very powerful in our capabilities in the cyber war. 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.600 The big issue is, because we're a democracy, going to 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:46.160 your point, Barry, in order to use it against an adversary, 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.560 we need to get a consensus. We need to get 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.840 tigress to improvement. The president can't do that unilaterally because 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.560 it is action, it's covert action, and you'd have to 0:16:54.760 --> 0:17:00.080 get approval. So today's world, being a democracy, you have 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.080 to go through that process and what you're looking at 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.720 and before that and after that, they do not have 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:11.040 the same compunction season straints, so they have an edge. 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:13.520 But I still want to stick with our system because 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:15.959 at some point the system will come together. I know 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.359 that seems Pollyannis in this moment, but we'll come together 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.520 and we will get a consensus on what we need 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.600 to do in the cyber warfare. But we don't have 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.560 it now. And it is where did disadvantage in a 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.120 weakness now? Which goes to your You're I think very 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:35.720 perceptive question. Tell us about Moscow rules? What are they 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:41.280 and when did they start changing? So when I looked 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:45.400 at the election as we were just talking to our election, 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.240 and you know, I was hearing that the KGB was 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.600 actually interfere in our political process I had. I was 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:55.840 in denial at first that they can't do that, that's 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:00.560 that's that's a politically stupid But now back and say, 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:02.800 maybe it wasn't so stupid after all. In their part, 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.800 the second part was that's not how we played the 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.119 Cold War, didn't somebody briefed Putin Putin was actually in 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.520 the Cold War? It was you know, and Dresden, And 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:14.920 we can talk about that at some point. What were 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.480 the rules that you can't find them? It's like the 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.200 Magna Carter, you know, it's a little hard to get 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:21.919 your hands around the exact document. But there was an 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.760 understanding that there are certain things that weren't going to happen. 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:26.960 Where are we on the Cold War. We were not 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.920 going to counterfeit each other's money. Why we would destroy 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.679 the world economy, so we both had the capability to 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:37.800 do it. That never happened. We wouldn't um uh rough 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:40.399 off each other's officers because we were fighting all around 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.520 the world, and we would have no chaos in the 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.359 intelligence world. But there are a few exceptions on that, 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.199 but by and large, um that was an understanding the 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.560 others understanding was, you know, we can run operations around 0:18:54.560 --> 0:19:01.800 the world against each other, Afghanistan, Chili, Um, Egypt, wherever 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:06.439 the crisis, whether Italy after the war, but we were 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:11.480 not going to meddle in each in each country's programs. 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:12.959 And I was in charge of it, as you know, 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.080 for a period of time number two and then acting 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:19.560 for number one. It's number one, And you know, I 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:21.399 would just tell you the idea of phone came up 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:23.640 and said, look, let's run a cute operation in Russia's 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.600 Look that's that's not how we played this game. And 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.720 so uh, the Moscow rules, we need to get back 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.000 to the table. And I'll tell it's not just the election. 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:37.239 Election is just the manifestation of the problem, and that is, 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.439 how are we going to conduct cyber warfare? We can 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:46.040 have treaties on missiles and boundaries and treaties on management 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:47.840 of water and so on, but how do you manage 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.119 cyber when it's invisible? So you have to have and 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.760 that comes hard to a democratic system. In other words, 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:56.920 we'd like things out in the open. We came very 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:00.760 slowly the intelligence business. Through history. We we build up 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.719 intelligence and back the way. So how are we going 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:06.480 to deal with cyber and the truth of the matter 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:10.080 is in my estimation, and I hope it was. That 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:14.840 was hopeful that I was hearing something and the first 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:19.439 discussions with Prutinent they were going to defer, so the 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:21.919 second level officials to sort of work out things. I 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.200 was hoping, and I don't know that to be the case, 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:29.600 that there'd be some understanding among the intelligence groups at 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:31.800 a very high level. This is not a committee. This 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.760 is really one or two people agreeing that we should 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:37.960 we know what you're doing, you know what we're doing. 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:41.640 Let's understand each other. You either we're going to stay 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.119 out of each other political system, and if they don't, 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.119 then you get to the really hard But this is 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:49.479 where we needed consensus in this country. How do we 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:54.760 respond to that aggressive Russian aggression inside of our our 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.959 political and economic system. So what is there obviously was 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:04.520 a will full calculus made by Vladimir Putin to violate 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.480 these rules. Did he just see us as sort of 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:11.639 distracted and vulnerable and thought, let me go mess with them? What? What? 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:15.720 What's behind such a radical change in the relationship between 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:22.439 two very powerful nations. I think it goes to the 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:28.439 personality of and it goes to a strategic decision um 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:31.920 on the personality. As I said, he was. He wanted 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.240 to be a KGV officer at seventeen. They turned him down, 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.560 but he actually got into KGB. You have to be 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.200 you know, it was hard to get into the KGVS, 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:42.879 just like it's very hard to get into c I A. 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:46.840 I'm an exception, but which set that aside. But so 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:48.840 he would he knew what he wanted to be come 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.199 he wanted to defend, you know, the system. He was 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:54.520 a true believer. And they didn't send him to Paris, 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.720 the wine and dyeing the French, or Washington and hang 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:02.400 out in Georgetown that they sendim to Dresden. And Dresden 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.800 is you know, the bleak, dark East Germany, the famous 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:11.960 Marcus Wolf, the real Carla Uh of Lucy's books. I mean, 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:15.720 he had more spies Marcus Wolfs than I think any 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.159 they should state had at the time. So he was 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:23.400 in the dark side of the Cold War. And Uh 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:26.880 when Sony Union fell, he was crushed his whole world. 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.760 And I think he was committed and he remains it, 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:31.879 and people need to understand he is committed to the 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:36.080 reconstitution of the Great Russian not so much the Communist Party, 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.600 but Russia being powerful and it's intelligence arms being powerful 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.600 and guess what and adnemy be in the United States. 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.760 And I have how hard time come to terms with it. 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.000 But when I look at the psychology, he grew up 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:51.960 in a world where the number one enemy of the 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:58.239 KGB was the the the US, and that's still there. 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.159 He hasn't mind that we're in amplacable and of me 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.960 and the truth of that his adversaries, like myself, I 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.120 think we don't have a good relationship with Russia. There's 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:09.160 a awful lot of similarhyberties with Russia, and uh, it's 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:13.600 it's role in Europe and we shouldn't be adversary. So 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.439 it's on that psychological level, and then we can go 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:18.639 into the whole psychology of Wood and if you like, 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:22.359 I think he actually believes that we're an adversary in 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:25.720 a way that I don't believe is the case. The 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:30.200 second thing is they've developed a strategy, a military strategy, 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:37.159 and it's uh attributed to one other generals more pronounced right, 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:41.159 and he was the head of the armed forces, and 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:43.679 he latest said, well, that's not really his strategy. It's 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:49.480 called a hybrid strategy means when you're facing adversaries, use military, economic, political, 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:53.520 what cyber. In other words, they have made cyber part 0:23:53.800 --> 0:23:56.800 of their military strategy and the use of it and 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.680 the use of this information. Other words, what you saw 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:04.760 in it the States, there is only the visible eventually 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.480 saw a visible part of of of a military strategy, 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:12.440 and that is you weaken your adversary or if you'd 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:16.359 like something softer competitor, by getting into their system, into 0:24:16.440 --> 0:24:20.280 their cyber world and causing trouble and making them a 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:26.359 weaker political force. And I think it was both politically, um, 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:29.320