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Speaker 1: Hi everybody. Uh, this is Easton. I'm the engineer here

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Speaker 1: on Wine Down with Janet Kramer and Michael Cosson. UM.

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Speaker 1: Working on this show has been an absolute dream come

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Speaker 1: true for me personally. I am a huge Janner Kramer fan,

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Speaker 1: and this show is so much fun and it's just

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Speaker 1: such a joy to be a part of this. I

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Speaker 1: want to thank everybody out there for listening over the

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Speaker 1: last year. We've really appreciated your support and uh we

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Speaker 1: love having you guys come out to the live shows

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Speaker 1: and and everything. Uh, everything you guys do. You're just

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Speaker 1: the best fans in the world. UM. So we're we're

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Speaker 1: going into New Year's We're going into so we thought

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Speaker 1: we would take this opportunity to play, um one of

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Speaker 1: the more popular episodes from the last year. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say this is my favorite episode because um

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Speaker 1: it was. It was tense, So I don't wanna say

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Speaker 1: it was my favorite because I enjoyed the uh what

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Speaker 1: happened in it. But I think it's an important episode

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Speaker 1: and that's why we're gonna play this one UM once.

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Speaker 1: Once it gets going, you'll you'll know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: It's a it was a very UM crucial episode for Janet,

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Speaker 1: Michael and UM. I think it gave us a lot

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Speaker 1: of insight into their relationship and all the work that

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Speaker 1: they do. Uh. So, once again, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for listening to the show and all your support. Uh

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Speaker 1: we we love you guys. So please enjoy uh this

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Speaker 1: special episode of wine Down with Janna Kramer and have

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Speaker 1: a happy and safe New Year. Wind Down with Janna

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Speaker 1: Kramer and Michael Cosson and I Heart Radio and People's

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Speaker 1: Choice Award nominated podcast. Okay, so I'm really excited because

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Speaker 1: we have Katherine Oxenberg in studio. Um. Okay, Katherine, I

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Speaker 1: it's You've a fascinating story. How before I jump into it?

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Speaker 1: Do you know Sarah Edmondson? I do? Yeah. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: we did a movie together about um gosh, it was

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Speaker 1: a year and a half ago, No, two years ago.

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Speaker 1: It was two years ago. And it's it's so weird

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Speaker 1: now thinking back to our conversation because I I remember

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Speaker 1: her saying some kind of weird, weird, weird things. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it was it was off. And then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden I saw her on Dateline and I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I did a Hallmark movie with her.

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Speaker 1: Christmas movie. Yeah, and so I instagrammed her and I

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Speaker 1: was just like, hey, because I know that she you know,

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Speaker 1: she talked all about being in this Nexium cult and

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Speaker 1: she has you know, the book, her book that just

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Speaker 1: came out, and so I just didn't know how big

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Speaker 1: or small that world was. And if you knew of

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Speaker 1: her or you know, if if UM because your daughter

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Speaker 1: was the one that was in the next UM cults, correct,

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Speaker 1: that is correct. Yeah, I definitely met Sarah through Next

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Speaker 1: HUM when it was called Executive Success Program, which was

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Speaker 1: the consumer facing company that she was a coach for.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, in the beginning, she was a big

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Speaker 1: recruiter and UM and I didn't really have anything to

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Speaker 1: do with the organization. I stopped taking classes probably in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and thirteen, but my daughter stated and she

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Speaker 1: remained a coach and became very involved. And Sarah was

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Speaker 1: quite high up UM and as far as owning a

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Speaker 1: center in Vancouver and being responsible for bringing in I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe thousands of people, but well, and that's

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Speaker 1: kind of what I was like. I felt like she

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Speaker 1: was trying to bring me into something. So I remember

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Speaker 1: being like it was just very strange and I was like, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not really like, I'm good, you know. But then

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Speaker 1: I was just like, oh my gosh, it's all all connected. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's very charismatic. She's a really sweet, adorable person. And

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Speaker 1: I can see why she was a great recruiter, and

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Speaker 1: I can see why she's a great whistleblow too. She

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Speaker 1: is the same passion um and she's the one who

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Speaker 1: when I first was told about what was really going on,

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Speaker 1: which would have been April two thousand and seventeen, and

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Speaker 1: that my daughter had probably been branded h I met

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Speaker 1: with Sarah and she showed me her brand and on

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Speaker 1: her right, No, it's not on her butt, it's like

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Speaker 1: on her pelvic area. Pelvic area that's on the front,

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Speaker 1: and hers, to date is Theony brand that I've actually seen.

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Speaker 1: But she and I were in the first New York

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Speaker 1: Times um article that broke the story originally and got

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Speaker 1: the attention of the government. And then I went ballistic

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Speaker 1: on a wall path with from one media outlet to

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Speaker 1: the other until okay, so let's just start over then.

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Speaker 1: So okay, just now that we got let's start from

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Speaker 1: the beginning. So you you and your daughter went to

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Speaker 1: this class. I'll let you kind of started off. How

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Speaker 1: did it start? Um innocently? It was a self help

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Speaker 1: leadership program. My daughter was about start a business. Sarah

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Speaker 1: Edmondson was one of the coaches in that first class.

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Speaker 1: Um it. I've done a lot of self help. It

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Speaker 1: didn't seem particularly original. My daughter loved it from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: I think what hooked me a little bit was they

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Speaker 1: did these emotional processes that unhooke reactivity or what they considered,

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Speaker 1: you know, any limitations that you have, And what's actually

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Speaker 1: happening is they're unhooking your gut and they're just starting

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Speaker 1: to dismantle your personality. But it feels good, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of these large group Aware and His trainings use

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Speaker 1: very similar techniques. I think that probably Keith Renei, although

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Speaker 1: he says his material um was proprietary and you'd sign

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Speaker 1: an n d A, I think most of it was

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Speaker 1: plagiarized from other of these well known trainings, whether it

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Speaker 1: be st or Landmark or Scientology. I think that he

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Speaker 1: stole a lot of stuff. So not you know, but

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Speaker 1: um my, my daughter got very involved, and there was

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Speaker 1: a huge emphasis on recruitment and they were making a

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Speaker 1: lot of money off people. At one point Katherine, did

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Speaker 1: you kind of read between the lines and realize this

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Speaker 1: isn't exactly what we signed up for and get yourself

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Speaker 1: of fout? And then like, why was there such a

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Speaker 1: discrepancy in time between when you got yourself out and

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Speaker 1: then getting your daughter Indie out. You know, it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting thing that you said get you know, getting myself out.

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Speaker 1: I never really considered myself in because I just took classes.

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Speaker 1: And there was a huge difference between somebody who was

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Speaker 1: taking the occasional class versus somebody who signed up for

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Speaker 1: the coach Path, which Sarah was a coach, and they

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Speaker 1: those people were taking this program seriously and they are

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Speaker 1: the ones that they considered to be really dedicated to

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Speaker 1: improving humanity. Um. Like there was a big emphasis on

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Speaker 1: the doctrine and on Keith Ranieri, who they called the vanguard. So, um,

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Speaker 1: I never really got in. I just took classes, and

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Speaker 1: then I'm like, you know what, this is weird. But

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Speaker 1: the reason I wrote a book, which came out actually

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Speaker 1: last year, was because those warning signs. If I recognized

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Speaker 1: that they were dangerous versus just thinking, okay, so these

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Speaker 1: are quirky people, UM, I would have run away. I

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Speaker 1: would have never exposed my daughter to anything as dangerous

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Speaker 1: as this. It is just that I was naive. I

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Speaker 1: didn't really understand how these groups work, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: understand the process of indoctrination and how easy it is

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Speaker 1: to kind of hijack somebody's mind without you being aware.

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Speaker 1: So was India branded? India was branded? You? I didn't

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Speaker 1: intervention with her, which was May two thousand seventeen, and

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Speaker 1: I point blank asked her if she'd been branded, and

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Speaker 1: she didn't lie, which was strange because everyone within the

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Speaker 1: organization is taught to lie to everybody on the outside.

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Speaker 1: So why did you think that she was getting? Like?

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Speaker 1: What were the things that you saw that were that

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Speaker 1: was off? Okay? So um, in the beginning, she became

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Speaker 1: a little more distant, she became a little bit more serious.

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Speaker 1: She felt more burdened to me, But it could have

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Speaker 1: been you know, Okay, So one of the heads of

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Speaker 1: the organization, Nancy Saltzman, who was higher than Sarah, told me, well,

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Speaker 1: India's individuating, and so I could I could I could

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Speaker 1: buy that. You know, she was a young when and

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Speaker 1: she was separating from me and her family, and she

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Speaker 1: was trying to find her own way. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of the symptoms that are like, wow, doesn't feel like

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Speaker 1: my daughter anymore, doesn't have that kind of brightness and

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Speaker 1: that joyful spirit. UM. I didn't know that these were

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Speaker 1: symptoms of her actually having her personality dismantled and taking

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Speaker 1: on occult persona. And that's what happened. She slowly but

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Speaker 1: surely started to change. And it was so slow, it's

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Speaker 1: such a slow drip that it wasn't until it was

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Speaker 1: too late that I realized that they had taken her.

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Speaker 1: And what do you mean by taking her? What? What?

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Speaker 1: What does that consist of? Well again, steps first becoming

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Speaker 1: a coach and so isolating her, creating a new family,

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Speaker 1: separating her from her loved ones, um insisting she break

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Speaker 1: up with her boyfriend, then involving her seven in the organization,

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Speaker 1: recruiting people, making it her life, then moving her to Albany,

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Speaker 1: New York, which was the epicenter of the group. So

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Speaker 1: slowly but surely the years go by. She's living in Albany,

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Speaker 1: She's given up all her possessions in l A, she's

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Speaker 1: given up all her friends, and she's leading this new

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Speaker 1: life in service with Keith Ranieri. And suddenly she's Allison,

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Speaker 1: Alison Max slave and you go, what the hell happened?

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Speaker 1: And um, it wasn't until Like I I'm a parent

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Speaker 1: of several kids, and really part of the way that

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Speaker 1: our parent is that I try and let my kids

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Speaker 1: make their own mistakes. I try not to interfere, try

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Speaker 1: not to be a helicopter parent. Um. But you know,

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Speaker 1: given giving really adhering to giving them the dignity of

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Speaker 1: their own process of adult ng But when I found

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Speaker 1: out that she was actually in physical dangerous the moment

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Speaker 1: that I, like my maternal instincts just went haywire and

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Speaker 1: I did everything that I could to get her out.

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Speaker 1: What danger did you see and what danger did you

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Speaker 1: know that she was in? A defector called me up

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Speaker 1: mid April two thou seventeen and said you have to

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Speaker 1: save her and I'm like, uh, okay, from what? And

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Speaker 1: she said, well, she's in involved in the secretive slave

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Speaker 1: master group that's supposed to be a female leadership program

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Speaker 1: within Nexium, but actually it's a recruiting funnel for sex

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Speaker 1: for Keith. It's based on a slave master hierarchy and

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Speaker 1: Alison Mack is her master and she's being forced to

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Speaker 1: recruit slaves, she's probably branded, she's on a five calorie

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Speaker 1: a day diet, she's sleep deprivede she signed a lifetime

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Speaker 1: vow of obedience to Keith into the organization, like she

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Speaker 1: just she read off this list of things, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: how does self help turned into sex trafficking? Like how

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Speaker 1: does that even happen? And so the first thing that

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Speaker 1: I did was I want to see a specialist. I

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Speaker 1: wanized in an intervention. I brought her back to l A,

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Speaker 1: pretending it was a birthday. I felt horrible. I'd never

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Speaker 1: been duplicitous with my daughter. I mean, we have such

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Speaker 1: we had such a great relationship. Found out from my

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Speaker 1: daughter at the same time her hair was falling out

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Speaker 1: and had a period in a year. Uh so I'm

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Speaker 1: getting messages from her that she's having physiological problems. I

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Speaker 1: can't tell her that I know why because I don't

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Speaker 1: want to kind of I don't want to expose my

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Speaker 1: plan to bring her back because I was afraid she

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Speaker 1: wouldn't come back. And then I failed at the intervention,

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Speaker 1: and I see that she's recruiting other young women, and

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Speaker 1: I'm able to stop them going back to Albany from

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Speaker 1: being branded. Thank God, so you you stopped her like

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Speaker 1: she she saw it, saw like she in the intervention,

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Speaker 1: she she saw what was happening. No, quite quite the opposite.

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Speaker 1: She thought I was crazy and overreacting, and that she

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Speaker 1: was doing something good and noble, and that um branding

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Speaker 1: was character building. She was completely brainwashed. At what point

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Speaker 1: after the intervention, like, how long after that were you

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Speaker 1: finally able to get through to her? Okay, um a

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Speaker 1: year and two months? So so she just left and

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Speaker 1: you didn't talk to her. They took her back and

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Speaker 1: they started to UM. Well. First of all, the hierarchy

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Speaker 1: started to try and use her to find ways to

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Speaker 1: sue me and compromise me and silence me. They told

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Speaker 1: her that I was suffering from Munchhausen by proxy disease,

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Speaker 1: that I was a psychopath, that everything I was doing

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Speaker 1: was trying. So they brainwashed her specifically against me, so

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Speaker 1: that I was enemy number one, which made it very

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Speaker 1: very hard because then everything that I did when I

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Speaker 1: had to go and expose her publicly UM just deepened

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Speaker 1: the rift and made it harder for her to reconcile

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Speaker 1: with me. Does she still have that um negative energy

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Speaker 1: towards you? Or she is she you know she okay.

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Speaker 1: Now are you guys okay? We're more than okay, and

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Speaker 1: I think um. One of the first things that she

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Speaker 1: said to me that I knew meant that she was

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Speaker 1: healing after thinking that I was like public enemy number

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Speaker 1: one was she told her best friend, my mom was

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Speaker 1: willing to have everybody hate her. And I knew when

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Speaker 1: she said that that she understood that I was willing

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Speaker 1: to go to any lengths to get her back, and

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Speaker 1: that was the depth of my love. Absolutely, let's take

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Speaker 1: a break. When we come back, Katherine oxen Burger is

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Speaker 1: going to talk about signs parents should look for in

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Speaker 1: their kids, things she saw and things you should look

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Speaker 1: for if you've got kids and are concerned your kids

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Speaker 1: Janna thirty. Do you have any any h kind of

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Speaker 1: I guess advice for any parents out there that have

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Speaker 1: you know, these young adult children that are kind of

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Speaker 1: going off and having their new experiences. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: something to watch out for that maybe looking back, you

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Speaker 1: might have missed or you wish you would have done better.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, just anything for parents. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know we're parents with two young kids, but just

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Speaker 1: something to look out for and there's later years. That's

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Speaker 1: a great question. UM. I think if I had known

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Speaker 1: that the prefrontal cortex of a young adult doesn't fully

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Speaker 1: develop until they're twenty seven, so they're ability need to

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Speaker 1: um to make decisions their cognitive faculties actually aren't fully developed,

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Speaker 1: I would probably be more mindful about what they got

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Speaker 1: involved in and do more due diligence. And UM, I

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Speaker 1: would teach them about predatory tactics, whether it be an

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Speaker 1: abusive relationship or a predatory group like this, and what

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Speaker 1: to look for and what to avoid and a lot

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Speaker 1: of those wanting signs are actually like there's a roadmap

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Speaker 1: in my book that makes it very helpful to understand.

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Speaker 1: Like if we expoth whether it's an r Kelly, you

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Speaker 1: know how these predators operate in plain sight, once you

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Speaker 1: expose their playbook, which is pretty slim, then our kids

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Speaker 1: are not going to full prey in the same way,

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Speaker 1: be a bit a group or be it an individual,

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Speaker 1: they kind of work the same way absolutely, And and

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Speaker 1: going off of that, do you think you know, because

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Speaker 1: I feel like, as again we're parents, are two young kids,

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Speaker 1: you want everything to be like butterflies and rainbows, right,

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Speaker 1: especially early on in your experience raising multiple children, what's

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Speaker 1: that age that maybe you sit them down and have

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Speaker 1: these discussions. Will look, there's bad people in this world.

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Speaker 1: There are predators, there's people, and these are the consequences.

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Speaker 1: This stuff actually exists in this world. At what age

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Speaker 1: would you consider having those discussions going back again with

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Speaker 1: your kids? Wow? You know that is another great question,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's personal choice because I think you

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Speaker 1: start the minute that they interface with other people. Um,

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Speaker 1: I was molested at age four. You know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it's a personal decision like who your kids

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Speaker 1: are going to be interacting with and what you tell

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Speaker 1: them at what age and what they can comprehend. So

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Speaker 1: maybe in simple terms, when they're younger, and then when

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Speaker 1: they're able to think cognitively, which starts around the age

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Speaker 1: of ten to twelve, you can you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: really hard conversation because you don't want them to be

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Speaker 1: suspicious source cynical, and that's it's a very fine line.

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Speaker 1: But the world is not a safe place and people

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Speaker 1: don't have your best interests and that's it's tough to

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Speaker 1: break that to your kids. So when you say this, um,

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Speaker 1: the sex slaves and slavery, I mean was it was

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Speaker 1: it just sex trafficking and sex slavery or what other

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Speaker 1: kind of what else did that entail? Um multiple like

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Speaker 1: abuses against women and what it means to be a

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Speaker 1: when a woman, and it was deeply embedded into the curriculum.

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Speaker 1: The deeper you got in, the more misogyny was revealed.

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Speaker 1: Until you have women like Lawrence Saltzman tell Sarah Edmondson,

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Speaker 1: the only way a woman can build can build self

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Speaker 1: worth is through humiliation. So I would say, um, this

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Speaker 1: was a very very dangerous organization because the level of

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Speaker 1: self hatred that it was fostering, that women were able

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Speaker 1: to and hurt another woman. I mean, um, they were

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Speaker 1: desensitized to the point that violence against women was was encouraged.

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Speaker 1: That's very frightening. Yeah, but it started not like that.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just they just they just get in and

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Speaker 1: they just totally brainwash you. Well, it was you have

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Speaker 1: to look at it from two standpoints. The epicenter of

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Speaker 1: this cult, the Keith Rainieri, had a harm and he

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Speaker 1: was rotating twenty women. This is not how they present themselves.

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Speaker 1: This is not what I was told when I walked

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Speaker 1: in the door to take a class, that really the

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Speaker 1: leaders having sex with twenty women, and that potentially anybody

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Speaker 1: who walks through these doors is a recruit to become

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Speaker 1: a sexual partner for him. You're not told that, um,

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Speaker 1: but that's really what was going on. This was all

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Speaker 1: about his It's about power control and his self gratification.

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Speaker 1: Everything that was designed, the whole program was as a

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Speaker 1: funneling system for him. That's how sick it was. And

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Speaker 1: he's obviously in jail now. He has definitely in jail

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Speaker 1: without bail, and he's awaiting, awaiting sentencing. Has he owned

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Speaker 1: up to any of it? Or is he that psychopath

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Speaker 1: that just thinks that what he did was fine? You

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Speaker 1: want to hear the thing that's so gross. I was

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Speaker 1: sitting in court during closing arguments, and I know that

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Speaker 1: he made his chief counsel say this to the jury.

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Speaker 1: He was basically saying that the first witness, this woman Sylvie,

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Speaker 1: who had accused him of rape. Basically he's like, well,

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Speaker 1: he Keith gave her her first orgasm. So and I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting there going. Okay, wait a minute, are you really

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Speaker 1: trying to say that he's a good guy because because

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Speaker 1: he gave him gave her. So that's the level of

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Speaker 1: of self awareness that this. I mean to me, he's

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Speaker 1: like he's a lost cause and if he ever comes

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Speaker 1: out of jail, I mean, he's a danger to society,

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Speaker 1: this guy. Mhm Um, So you have your book came

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Speaker 1: out last year, right, Um, hordback came out last August,

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Speaker 1: and then the paperback came out this July with an

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Speaker 1: with an extended chapter about the trial and reconciling, reconciling

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Speaker 1: with my daughter and it's called Captive, a mother's crusade

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Speaker 1: to save her daughter from a terrifying cult. Um. It's

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Speaker 1: available now and you're actually going to be on the

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Speaker 1: Eat your Hollywood story too. Yep. I think that's coming

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Speaker 1: out this um Saturday. Has it been hard for you

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Speaker 1: to be in the limelight in this way? Like, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it wasn't what you thought whatever happen, So why

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Speaker 1: did you why did you want to write the book?

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Speaker 1: Why did you want to come out and do the

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Speaker 1: you know, the story and is it to to raise

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Speaker 1: awareness or is it is it a coping mechanism to um. Originally,

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Speaker 1: I wrote the book because I was afraid the government

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Speaker 1: was going to drop the ball because people had brought

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Speaker 1: evidence for decades and nothing had ever happened. So I thought,

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Speaker 1: what if I'm what if my book is the only

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Speaker 1: re source that collects all the information to expose Keith

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Speaker 1: Rinieri in these crimes. That was ultimately my first reason

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Speaker 1: for doing it, because he hadn't been arrested when I

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Speaker 1: was writing my book, and as I'm writing, the story

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Speaker 1: is unfolding, so it was happening in real time. Then

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Speaker 1: I wrote it for India. I wrote it for my

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Speaker 1: daughter because I figured if she read it, she would

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Speaker 1: wake up, and that did it helped her wake up.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, after that, it's to help other

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Speaker 1: family members who are going through what I went through.

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Speaker 1: I hope nobody goes through what I went through, and

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Speaker 1: to prevent it from happening. And yes, to raise awareness

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Speaker 1: because I think these these predators hide in plain site,

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Speaker 1: and the more you you shine a light on their

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Speaker 1: tactics that the easy it is, the safer, the safer

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Speaker 1: we are. Absolutely and do you I know again just

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Speaker 1: relating back to us having kids in our daughter like

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Speaker 1: she doesn't complete sentences as well as maybe some of

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Speaker 1: her classmates right, And so Janna and I put it

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Speaker 1: on ourselves and like we feel guilt where we're like,

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Speaker 1: are we not doing it for we're not doing something

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Speaker 1: right where she's a little behind. Going through what you've

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Speaker 1: been through with India, did you have to overcome those

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Speaker 1: feelings of guilt? Did you put a lot on yourself initially?

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Speaker 1: Like throughout all this process? Um, my personality is immediately yes,

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Speaker 1: I felt guilt that I had introduced her to this program,

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Speaker 1: but I'm the way that I deal with that is

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00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 1: that I I'm I find actionable ways to to counteract that.

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Speaker 1: So I I went full force into getting around. I

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Speaker 1: felt responsible for getting around. I felt responsible for getting

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Speaker 1: her out. And it's about being accountable as a parent,

405
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: like you're not. I can't be blamed for everything. But

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Speaker 1: wherever you can help, you do? How is India? You know,

407
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: dealt with the healing process through all of this, it's

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Speaker 1: been um intensive. I think for anybody. This is the

409
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 1: thing that people don't understand. You can't leave a cult

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Speaker 1: and move forward. You're still trapped, like it's in your head.

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Speaker 1: They've changed the way you think you're still under the

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Speaker 1: influence of the doctrine. So it takes a lot of

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Speaker 1: work to unravel what was done to you and to

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Speaker 1: reclaim your ability to think critically. And that is a

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Speaker 1: process and it's just been lots of therapy. What was

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Speaker 1: one thing that helped her the most? Do you think, um, gosh,

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Speaker 1: you'd have to ask her that, I mean, because I'd

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Speaker 1: like to think it, you know, it was me, but

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Speaker 1: I don't think it was. I think it was. It was.

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Speaker 1: It was a lot of things. Um. She she met

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who gave her a different perspective,

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Speaker 1: and that perspective sort of shattered the cult persona um

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Speaker 1: like a watching her blossom was really beautiful and coming

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Speaker 1: back to herself. Well, I mean, I just appreciate you

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00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: coming on here and sharing the story and for being

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Speaker 1: vulnerable and you know you're obviously your words and your

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00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 1: story are going to help a lot of people and hopefully,

428
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: you know, um, I hope everyone gets your book too,

429
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 1: because is I mean, it's it's unfortunately not just a

430
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 1: fascinating made up story. You know, it's real and something

431
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: that you guys have been through and others are probably

432
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: going through right now. So hopefully this will be the

433
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: first you know look into it and then also the

434
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 1: you know help to get out. So we appreciate you.

435
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much. Both thank you and listeners.

436
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 1: Don't forget to watch the true Hollywood story on this.

437
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: Thanks Catherine, Thanks you guys. Take care. Halloween is on

438
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 1: the way, which means it's time to break out the

439
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: reb spiders, fake cobwebs, and jack lanterns. But if you've

440
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: got a family, you might be dealing with something a

441
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: little scarier right now, shopping for life insurance. If the

442
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Speaker 1: idea of looking for life insurance intimidates you, try policy

443
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Speaker 1: genius dot com. Policy Genius is the easy way to

444
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445
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446
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447
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448
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449
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450
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,840
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451
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: Go to policy genius dot com get quotes and applying minutes,

452
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Speaker 1: you can do the whole thing on your phone right now.

453
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Speaker 1: Policy Genius, the easy way to compare and buy life insurance.

454
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: What's up, guys, what's happening? Mark Easton are you there?

455
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: I'm here. Eastern is dealing with other podcasts as we speak.

456
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: He's running around this building like crazy awesome, Go Team Go.

457
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: How are you guys living the dream? Yeah? Day, we're hustling.

458
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: When we last left, we had a discussion about Mike's

459
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: trip to Mount Kilimanjaro. Has there been any further discussion

460
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: on that. No, we got other stuff more than the

461
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: forefront that we're working on. That's okay. Well, then I'll

462
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: be quiet and let you guys go. That's Mark. Please

463
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: tell me about you. I just really want to talk

464
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: about Mark today. There's nothing. There's nothing interesting about me.

465
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: I promise you. Do you have anything, honey? Nope? I

466
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: really don't want to be here right now. So I've

467
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: kind of gotten that vibe. Actually, we wear our hearts

468
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: on our sleeves. Mark, what can we say? It's a blessing.

469
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: It's a blessing and a curse. I mean, if you

470
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 1: want to talk about it, be my guest, Michael. I

471
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: know Mark would love that when you Mark, I think

472
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: you know, I just want it. What's best for all

473
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: of us? Well, why don't you just Tea and Mike

474
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,719
Speaker 1: and see how the water feels, you know what. Okay,

475
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: here's the situation, and this is I mean, I'll tell you, well,

476
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: we give these listeners some good Yeah, it's real good.

477
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: Did my Heart on the floor is really good stuff.

478
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that. I'm just really no, I know,

479
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: it's just really good stuff. Do you really want to

480
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: talk about this? I mean, go for it. Already got

481
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: all our out there, might as well keep it on

482
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: a roll. And I'm sure people deal with this. So

483
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: all right, here's I'll give the the gist of it.

484
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: Oh no, let me start on Saturday. On Saturday, um,

485
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: we had some friends in town, but about to go

486
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: out for a date night. I received this text message

487
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: from this number I don't recognize. Open it up. It's

488
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: a picture of a female and like a message or

489
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 1: top off, m m hm message from a female with

490
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: we're writing underneath saying oh let's try to meet up

491
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: this time or something like that. Ok, I do, I

492
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: mean you brought it so this was a wrong number,

493
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: This was an old yeah, but it wasn't anybody I knew. Oh,

494
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: and so I see it and I'm like, okay, I

495
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: know the right thing to do is to go get Joanna,

496
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 1: pull her aside and say, hey, I just see this.

497
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: I don't know what the hell it is, but I

498
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: just need to let you know because something like this

499
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: has happened. Happened like a year ago when when we

500
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: were in l a very similar situation, nearly identical, and

501
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: I brought it to Joanna and I said exactly pretty

502
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: much that hey, I just got this. I don't know

503
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: what the hell it is, but I just needed to

504
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: bring it to you. And she handled it well, she

505
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: really did. And this situation Saturday, even though I consciously

506
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: had that dialogue with myself saying I know what I

507
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: need to do here, I was terrified to do so

508
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: I started kind of rationalizing in my head. I'm like, man,

509
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: we're about to go out to a date night with

510
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: like two other couples. I was like, In the other hand,

511
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: on the other side, I'm like, we've Jen and I

512
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: have really had a good run recently, like not a

513
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: lot of past stuff coming up. We've been handling situations

514
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: pretty well, handling triggers pretty well talking things out where

515
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: it's like it really felt like we were building a

516
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: lot of forward momentum, and really majority of our conflicts

517
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: were around day to day marital issues, and so the

518
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: part of me that one in this situation was like,

519
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: this is the past coming back up. I don't want

520
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: any part of this. This is not me. Like, get

521
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: out of here and delete block done all with the

522
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: intention in general, chime in after I'm done talking definitely

523
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: about this is I was like, look, I need I

524
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: don't want to bring this up now. I don't any

525
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: part of it right now. I felt like a hot potato.

526
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: I didn't even want it in my text messages. Get

527
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: rid of it. I talked to my sponsor usually like

528
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: every Monday morning, because I know where he's going, I

529
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: know where he'll be and I can get a hold

530
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: of him. I want to talk to him and go

531
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: from there. With all the intention of Britans, Janna let

532
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: her into the situation, telling her why I deleted it,

533
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: which was because I just didn't want any part of it,

534
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: none of it. And so then yesterday I don't know

535
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: what inspired Janna, but she looked she's saw my Apple

536
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: Watch and saw the text message on there, so when

537
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: she compared to my phone, she thought I was just

538
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: being sneaky and deleting it. And I understand, and I

539
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: truly am empathetic to the fact that her seeing something

540
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: that was deleted that wasn't brought to her attention by

541
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: me in a healthy way, because it boundary is extremely triggering.

542
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's a boundary to not delete things something

543
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: that we we have mutually discussed and agreed on. So

544
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff comes up for her, a lot

545
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: of stuff comes up for me, and it's wait, a

546
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: couple of sessions about it this morning, and it's just

547
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: it's one of those things that's just difficult to navigate.

548
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: You have no I do who this person was, No, none,

549
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: none at all. And the only thing I can think

550
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: of and how this person even had my number was

551
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: almost eighteen months ago when I had my relapse and

552
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: I was reaching out to numbers of a plethora of numbers,

553
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: and which again, which is how this same situation happened

554
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 1: like a year ago. And so it's just it just

555
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: sucks because it's it's just as soon as we feel

556
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: like we're hitting a good a good you know, patch,

557
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: it's just like my past behaviors, my past actions come

558
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: back to haunt me. And then because I didn't handle

559
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: it in the way I know I had to, it

560
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: made it even worse. So the thinking was, we're going

561
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: off for a day night, it's gonna be great. Things

562
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: have been so good with us lately. I don't want

563
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: to trigger her in any way. Yeah, And I was

564
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: just like, this is so not me. I just don't

565
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: want any part of this right now. I don't want

566
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: or period. I don't want this life. This isn't the

567
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: life that I'm living now. It's a part of your

568
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: life you want to bury, and it's rearing its ugly

569
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: head and you're like, get away, get away, get away, Yes,

570
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: which is understandable, but not what Jane and I agreed

571
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: on on how to discuss these things and handle these things.

572
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: And it's beyond hurtful to see Janna hurt and upset

573
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: and few of the things that she feels because of

574
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: the things that I've done in the past. And Jenny,

575
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: you regularly go through texts I don't I haven't. Yeah,

576
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: we've gotten to a fight um that morning or the

577
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: afternoon or whatever, and I just I don't know. I

578
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: saw a we'll watch thing on the counter in the bathroom,

579
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: and I just I always have this like really weird intuition.

580
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: Every time I've had that intuition, it tells me to

581
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: look and I always find something. And when I looked,

582
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: I was like, God, damn it, I saw it and

583
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: I just immediately started my heart just fell as it's here.

584
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: It's happened again. I'm such a freaking idiot. And I

585
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: immediately called my best friend and I just was like shaking,

586
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: crying outside and then I texted the number where I

587
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: called the number UM and then I texted it and

588
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,479
Speaker 1: it was like please, you know It's like it said

589
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: like sorry, Hun, can't can't, UM, I can't talk on

590
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: the phone, Like do you want me to come over?

591
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: And I was just like, you texted my husband. I

592
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: would love to know your correspondence, like please from woman

593
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 1: one woman to another And I'm just like as I'm

594
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: typing this, I was like this is literally like how

595
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: is this happening again? UM? And then like the messages

596
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: got like really weird and then like it sent me

597
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: the same message that it's sent Mike, and so that

598
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 1: it started to think, Okay, maybe this is like one

599
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: of those like computer people. Yeah, like a bottle like

600
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: computer because it was like what kind of boobs do

601
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: you like? And I'm like, okay, this isn't a real person.

602
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: So then I'm like, yeah, they're not even reading it.

603
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: They're just like I'm coming to Nashville, like let's hook up.

604
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: And I'm just like okay. So then I like got

605
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: to that point and I'm like, okay, so maybe he

606
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: hasn't this is an actual person, but maybe he got

607
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: on a site because you know, usually when you sometimes

608
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: go to sites, those things can get on your phone

609
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: and then then you're part of like that spam thing.

610
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: So I'm but I'm like, how would he get on

611
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: porn sites because he's got comment in eyes on his

612
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: things to not have the ability to go to those places.

613
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: And so then I called my sponsor, um Or. She's

614
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: kind of my sponsor. It's weird. She's um she's in

615
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: the program and she's a sex addict, and so I

616
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: called her and I just was talking this through and

617
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: and the part is is it's the deleting. It's the

618
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: because I'm like, if he didn't delete it, like I

619
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: like he said, Mike said, like he came to me before,

620
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: and I was totally fine with I wasn't fine with it,

621
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: but I was like, okay, if this sucks, but thanks

622
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: for bringing it to me. It's the sneakiness of like

623
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: feeling like he deleted it because I'm like, I like

624
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: he saw before. I didn't freak out. I could understand

625
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: if maybe I freaked out before and through a fit,

626
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: but I didn't. I was okay with it as okay

627
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: as I was. So the part that like scared my

628
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: sponsor was that you know that he deleted it and

629
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: withheld information, especially since that's the boundary and you know,

630
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: and so they're like, okay, like you know, this isn't

631
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: the smoking gun? What what you know? Do you hire

632
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: a p I? And I'm just like, oh my god,

633
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: like my whole my whole world is about to just

634
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 1: sucking crumble again. And I'm like and I just started,

635
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: I'm just like how like this I know how, but

636
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: I just so it's just been to feel I'm just

637
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: sick of finding things. I feel like I'm constantly and

638
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: it's like then someone says, well, don't look, but then

639
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: it's hard not to look when I have that intuition

640
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: to look, and from your standpoint, the coincidence of the

641
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: one time you look, yeah, you find something that's got

642
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: to be tough, but well yeah, and it's every time,

643
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: and then it's like the hard thing too, is a

644
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: lot of the times when I do find something, he'll say, no,

645
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it was just I don't know. But then

646
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: there's always something after that. And that's where I'm like, Okay,

647
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: now I'm like living in the lava again. When am

648
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: I gonna get completely covered by it? Because that's next

649
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: And that's the part that's like, that's the part that's like,

650
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to live this kind of

651
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 1: life to to know when the like we just moved

652
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: to this beautiful house and we have the second kid,

653
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: Like we thought so hard, like why why is this

654
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,720
Speaker 1: happening again? And that's what I'm so scared of, because

655
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: it's it's not whether he ends up meeting up with

656
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: someone or not. I mean that last relapse, he almost

657
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: did and I was going to sign the papers, so

658
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: it's like he gets even close to the fire and

659
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: I'm gone. It's like, I'm like, because you do not

660
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: know that and realize that, And I love our family

661
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: enough and I know it's not a bar our family.

662
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: It's not about me, but that's just where. Um. But

663
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: unfortunately we met or fortunately we had a couples. Well,

664
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: so last night I just was like, get out of

665
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: the room, you know, out And this morning we had

666
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: obviously a couple of therapists and there was a new therapist.

667
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: Like poor guy just got majorly baptized by fire because

668
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: um but you know, and he just was like, you know,

669
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: gave Mike the opportunity to come forward and know that

670
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to start researching and looking into things on

671
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: the phone bill and just he's like can you try

672
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,919
Speaker 1: not to go all the way down the rabbit hole?

673
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: You know. He's like you need to look for a

674
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: couple of weeks and see. And that's the hard part

675
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: because now I have to go, Okay, was he on

676
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: an inappropriate site that I don't know about? Was this

677
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: just a fluke? Is he really? You know? I'm like,

678
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: I love you, Mike, but like you're a good liar,

679
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: like you passed the light at doctor test, you know

680
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: what I mean. Lying. So I'm like, you're you're charming

681
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: as how people believe you like you've lied to like

682
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen you like look me in the

683
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: eye and tell me what your truth was. But it

684
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: wasn't your truth. Yeah, So it's like I'm kind of

685
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: caught and like this weird, like what do I believe?

686
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: How do it? Was it just a fluke? I don't know?

687
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: And that's where I'm just like I kind of just

688
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 1: feel like I'm like I've given enough signs to the

689
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: freaking universe. So I'm like, do I do I keep

690
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: asking for signs or these my signs? But like I

691
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: can get out of dodge. Sorry, this is just really fresh.

692
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: Don't be sorry. Of course you don't be sorry, you're

693
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: the show. No, but I also am like here with

694
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: tears in my eyes. And the thing that's hard is

695
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: you're not looking at each other right now, and you're

696
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: not speaking to each other, and your body language is

697
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: really tough right now, and you're talking about him, but

698
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: he's right next to you because I'm not ready to

699
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: look at me because I don't know what I'm looking at. Okay,

700
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: that's okay, what would help you? I don't know. A's

701
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: a thing I can't there's nothing that's I'm like, I

702
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 1: don't I don't know, but I just like, why can't

703
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: you just like I didn't give you a reason to

704
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 1: not tell me the truth or to not just be like, hey,

705
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: this came up. Like I just need like in moments

706
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 1: like that, because I always ask I'm like, hey, is

707
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: that anything inappropriate? Or I gave him an opportunity to

708
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: come to have a safe place, and I like, I

709
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: want those moments so bad. I want to see that

710
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: he's working his recovery and working the boundaries like that

711
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: stuff is so huge for me, which is why I

712
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 1: didn't freak out the last time when he came right, Well, Michael,

713
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: what scares you? What scares you to tell her? That's

714
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: just said, it's it's scary period. I understand because there's

715
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: so much shame because in my mind, yes, even though

716
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: I know the right thing to do, it's still a

717
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: reminder of the things that I've done, and so there's

718
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: just it's there's so much pain, there's so much fear

719
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: behind that that you had a part of me. It's

720
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,479
Speaker 1: just like I don't want her to have to think

721
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 1: of that stuff. What about forgiving yourself first, Mike, and

722
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: and trying every day because you have so much pain,

723
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: and then because of that, it is all over Janna

724
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: and she has to carry so much because you won't

725
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: forgive yourself. She can't forgive you until you forgive yourself.

726
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I've told him I forgive him. I know

727
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: you have. And Mike, you are a good person. You

728
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: are you both are so beautiful and strong and open,

729
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: and I just don't know that you guys know it.

730
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: So Janna, I read this article. It's really interesting you

731
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: bring this up about the need to know versus the

732
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: fear of knowing, And I think that that's something that

733
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: that you should think about and talk to your sponsor

734
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: therapist about because it seems that that's what you grapple with.

735
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: You need to know, but you're afraid to know, and

736
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: that becomes a painful conflict for someone and neither is

737
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: necessarily I need to know for safety, That's the thing, Like,

738
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I've always when something comes up,

739
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: because I want to know that he's because it is

740
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: hard for him to tell the truth. It has been

741
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: in the past. So it's like to feel to know

742
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: that I'm safe in this marriage and to know that

743
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: he's not acting out like those are the things like

744
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: those land my times that land minds that he gets

745
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: for for me to be able to see and to

746
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: know that he's doing what he's you know, what people

747
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: have told him and how to you know, how to

748
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: tell me. And it's like and with me being empathetic

749
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: and sitting in it and knowing what he's doing, like,

750
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: that's that. I it's like it it's it's so helpful.

751
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: It shows me that he's on the right path of

752
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: your security. And yeah, it gives me security. He's telling

753
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: me the truth and not just deleting things. Like the

754
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: deleting things just I mean, it's just whether it's it

755
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: was a fluke text sends me right back to him

756
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: deleting all the messages that he did with his affairs.

757
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: I understand that. I understand that. So it's just it's

758
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: heavy because I'm like and now I just I don't

759
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: know what, I don't know, Well, you feel out of control? Yeah,

760
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: I just I feel like I'm just like my anxiety

761
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: level is just like through the roof. And did the

762
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 1: therapist this morning have any input on that about what

763
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: to do now? Uh, to take the space we need

764
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: and to rely on what we need to rely on

765
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: in order to take care of ourselves. That makes sense,

766
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: I know, I feel like Janna has to find the

767
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: security in herself. That's the thing. Like I'm when you know,

768
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: when I got upset last night, like staring at my

769
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: house outside in our driveway, it was I'm I'm secure

770
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: with me, but like our relationship and I thought we were.

771
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: It's just I felt like it was like a slap

772
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: in the face. So I'm not secure in his recovery.

773
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: But it's not my recovery, that's the thing. So it's

774
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: it's that's the that's the hard part about living with

775
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: an addict. Today. I'm not secure. A few days ago

776
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:10,280
Speaker 1: I felt secure. I'm trying to just process everything. It's

777
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: it's really complicated. It is, and it's it is, but

778
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: it's not, you know, And that's that's honestly, it's that's

779
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,439
Speaker 1: part of the weight and the frustration and the pain

780
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 1: of it all because when you look at it, if

781
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,479
Speaker 1: you put it down on paper, it's very simplistic. Just

782
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: all I had to do was come to her and say, hey,

783
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: this happened, so what is your answer why you didn't?

784
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: First of all, for me, feeling safe and telling the

785
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: truth is something that goes back since I was young,

786
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: Like I have fear around even being honest because of

787
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: how it was received in my upbringing. So that's a

788
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: very big traumatic trigger for me and has definitely been

789
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: my biggest hurdle in living with integrity and being completely

790
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: honest and transparent and and and everything. In all accounts,

791
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: what I was telling Mark on why I didn't was

792
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: because I want to run so far away from that

793
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: life of getting that kind of text message of being

794
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 1: reminded of the piece of that used to be that

795
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,479
Speaker 1: it's just it's that shame hit, that kicking the dick,

796
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: and I just selfishly I didn't want any part of it.

797
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 1: And that's that's the part that's unfair because I took

798
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: that opportunity away from myself and from Jana because I

799
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: wanted to spare myself and her. But I feel like

800
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: it was more of a selfish decision because I was scared.

801
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: So when I hear you call yourself a piece of

802
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: used to be, you weren't. But that's but that's it.

803
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: That's how that's how I I feel, That's how I felt.

804
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: That's part when you work on that part and forgiving

805
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: yourself and knowing then you will trust. Janet Jane is

806
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: fiercely loyal to you, Michael, and you need to be

807
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: willing to share with her the worst parts of you.

808
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: She will not leave. Well well yes, but if you

809
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: would have told her and you are not a piece

810
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: of understand you are not. I never learned how to

811
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: trust the truth. That's that's my trauma. But it's not

812
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: on her. She's shown you so much loyalty. But I

813
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 1: also want Janet to when she hears you call yourself

814
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: a piece of it breaks my heart. It must gut

815
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: her mm hmm, right, right, right, But you are a

816
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: good guy. Hate hearing you say that about yourself, and

817
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 1: I would feel the same way if Janna criticized herself

818
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 1: that way. I'm just sorry you can say that, say

819
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: it to her. I am sorry I didn't handle it

820
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: the way that we agreed upon and handle it the

821
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: right way for myself, for you, and for both of us.

822
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that the damage that's something like again that

823
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: seems so simplistic can cause. I hear you. I just

824
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: am having a hard time with you're saying that you

825
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: were going to tell me, because it's like you know

826
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: how many times I've heard but I was going to

827
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: tell you, But so I'm like you deleted it like

828
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,439
Speaker 1: just own that you weren't going to see you don't

829
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: want any part of it, that you just deleted it,

830
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: don't I Just the saying that you were going to

831
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 1: tell me about it is the part that I'm just like,

832
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: I do not buy. And I don't blame you for

833
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: not wanting to tell me, not one in that life.

834
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: I don't. But I'm like, I have a heart because

835
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know times I've heard you say, but

836
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I was gonna tell you about it. So

837
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: after twenty times of finding things, I don't believe that

838
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: line anymore. I believe you deleting it and just being

839
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: like I don't want this life. I do believe that

840
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: any step I get that. I totally would get that.

841
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,240
Speaker 1: But the fact that you're trying to hide behind saying

842
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: but you were going to tell me, I don't get.

843
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: I will I will not believe you on that. I

844
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 1: just don't. And I can't really hear her, really hear her,

845
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: because she's making a really really clear point there, and

846
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: I understand it, Like I'm totally giving you the opportunity

847
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: to be like, you're right, and I you know, even

848
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: though I said I was gonna tell you you're right,

849
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: that is a I maybe my intentions sure were, but

850
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: I probably wasn't. That would make more sense to me

851
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: that that I can agree with. Before when I hear

852
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: you before, when we talked about it, it seemed black

853
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: and white, and I didn't want to like challenge my

854
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: own integrity of just outright admitting that I wouldn't. My

855
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: intention it was absolutely to bring it up because I

856
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: know that was the right thing to do. Listen, do

857
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: you think in your heart of hearts you're going to

858
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:37,240
Speaker 1: bring it up? I don't know. Now that's an honest

859
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: answer like that, I can actually like my question. My

860
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: intention and plan was to But like you said that

861
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: you just said, I don't know. Do you know why

862
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: you lied just now saying when you say I was

863
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 1: going to tell you and Janet that because I doesn't believe.

864
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: Because I believe that I do, because of the work

865
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: that I've been doing, the work that I am trying

866
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: to do, I like to believe that I would default

867
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: and do the right thing. I don't think there's any answer. Yeah,

868
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that. No,

869
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: that's a fairy answer. Are you really going to call

870
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: perhaps on Monday. That was my intention, absolutely that that

871
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: was that was my intention again, But to answer it,

872
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: I like to think so that was my intention, But

873
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. If I would have

874
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: woken up this morning and followed through, I don't know,

875
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't have bothered you at all. I would

876
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: just it's out of side and mind usually did it

877
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: and whatever. I can't speak for the situation. I can't

878
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: go through and say if this would happen, if that

879
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: would heaven. All I know is that when I deleted

880
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: it is because I didn't want any part of it. Now,

881
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,399
Speaker 1: this is where I feel like you're trying to trap

882
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: me into saying something. See, I told you this, I

883
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: told you Glider. That's just because it's that's you wouldn't

884
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: have told me and I know that. So I just

885
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: really want to be done. I'm closing off guys. Sorry, No,

886
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: that's okay. I don't want I want you guys to

887
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: take a breath. I'm a little nervous about you guys,

888
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: just like no, it's fine. We got our kids, so

889
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: we'll just go our separate ways and let be fine.

890
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: What can we do for for you? Both of you?

891
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: Like if I was as brave as both of you

892
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,959
Speaker 1: to tell you the ways that I understand what both

893
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: of you are saying, Like it's really important because so

894
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: many people can relate, even if it's a different example.

895
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: It's really powerful. Like I feel truly for both of

896
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: you right now, truly, and I hear you both and

897
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 1: I believe you. I hope in next week when people

898
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: listen to this that they understand it's this is real.

899
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: And that's why we share is because we know that

900
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: there's other people out there going through either the exact

901
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: same situation or like you said, amy different topic but

902
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: similar similar details. And I understand too. Make it go away,

903
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: Make it go away. And I understand so much of

904
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: what Janna feels so much. That's why it's like there's

905
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: no answer because you're it's I get it, and you

906
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: do need time. We love you guys so much. Love