WEBVTT - Curious Incidents in Cancel Culture 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.240 You were listening and waiting on reparations. Production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:09.559 Heart Radio. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I walk like a g 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:12.760 talk like a wimp, wrappers a feast like lobster and 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.160 shrimp mac on the track song on the Pimp Medieval 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.360 Time tells zed get the Gilm out of ship. Don't 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:20.880 change is a unity call. When they had their chance, 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:23.079 they was building a wall. I ain't shaking no hands. 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.360 I don't feel them at all. Yo, didn't y'all lose. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:29.440 I don't listen to y'all know. Hey, this is like, well, Franca, 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:33.760 I'm dope knife and we are waiting on reparations. Harry, 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:38.000 please do so what you got going on on my end? 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.760 You know, it's UM Black History Month, as we all know, 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.159 and I'm very pleased that this month, after almost two 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:50.720 years of working on UM trying to get reparations for 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.040 folks displaced by urban renewal here in Athens in the 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.480 nineteen sixties, is I feel, like I've discussed on previous episodes, 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:03.400 we finally have UM resolution UM recognizing the harm that 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.720 was done to them and their families when the university 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.680 and the city of Athens conspired to have them moved 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:13.600 out of their neighborhood for dormitory expansion in in the 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:18.640 nineteen sixties. UM, we're gonna be building a wall of 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.600 recognition on the site where their neighborhood used to be, 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.800 so that UM students that traverse that corridor frequently can 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.640 understand a bit of the history of the land which 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.039 they stand. And we're hoping it's the beginning of continued 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.960 work and getting some state laws changed so that we're 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:39.240 going to provide some material redress for the losses UM 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.160 they incurred. These properties that were taken from their families 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.920 would today be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:50.880 so thinking about how we can get that money back 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.160 in their hands and sort of recoup some of the 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:57.080 financial losses to stay and as a part of that UM. 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.680 It's ongoing work, but we're really pleased we finally made 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.680 it this are and the Mayor of Athens will be 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:07.680 reading a proclamation formally apologizing for urban renewal later this month. 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.600 So we're like not only just talking about black history 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:15.919 in terms of forgotten figures in our national historical landscape, 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.600 but thinking locally about the history of black communities here 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.440 in Ankananda. Then this month, which I think think it's 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:28.639 really exciting and she gotten you know, just chilling living. Oh, 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.960 my mom's got her first dose of the vaccine, so 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.000 that's cool. Been making music, oh, speaking of you know, 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.040 I feel like since we've been doing this, I've been 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:43.240 pretty good at being ethical, Like I don't get up 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.320 here in hawk music at people all the time. But 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:48.600 I do have a new song that I'm putting out 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:52.919 on the twelfth of February, so I think like next Friday. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.680 So that's exciting getting ready for that's doun A little 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.519 bit about the song. Oh, it's called Sundance. It's a 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.400 little love song and put know for Valentine's Day, so 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.560 it's like a wildly off brand. Actually it's it's a 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.280 funny story behind it. My um there was an ex 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.480 that I had and I had written it for her. 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.280 It was like a sweet ass, you know, love song 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.960 just about our relationship and ship like that, and then 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:20.280 we broke up like maybe two weeks after I wrote it, 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.359 so I never really used it for anything because I 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.519 was like, man, I don't even feel it into this 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.800 ship anymore. But next thing you know, it's been like 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.400 seven or eight years, me and her are still good. Friends, 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.080 and uh, I don't know how it came up, but 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.160 I let her hear a demo and she was like, 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:41.280 oh yo, why didn't you ever put that out? So 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.040 you know, she she got on me enough that I 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.480 ended up rerecording it as part of like all these 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.960 new songs that I was making, So you know, it's 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.960 a good, good, different thing to have there. I'm gonna 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.800 be putting out a lot of ignorant ship afterwards, so 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.600 it's like a good way to get my feet back 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:00.760 into ship. But yeah, and I'm excited about it. Um 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.240 it's been it's been a minute since I put out 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.840 some new music, so there's all the excitement that comes 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.520 with that sort of ship. And I'm gonna start, you know, 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.800 putting out like songs on the regular while I'm working 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.760 on an album, you know, just so I'm not inactive 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.000 and shipped. So it's exciting times for me. I'm excited 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.440 for people to hear my lockdown raps that I wrote. 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.039 So that's gonna be February twelfth, and it'll be on 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.200 all the streaming ship wherever you listen to ship, you'll 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.080 be able to find it. Alright, let's get to it, 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.880 So to set up what we're gonna be talking about today, 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.120 kind of gotta give you a little bit of a 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:39.800 backstory as to why I was thinking about this in 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.800 the first place. So it very much involves recent events 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.479 and things that are going on in politics right now. 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:49.479 So in the wake of the Capital Rights a few 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:53.320 weeks ago, while Republican politicians have stood pretty strong by 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:57.040 their former disgrace president, there's been a wider public backlash 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.400 against the Trump Field assault. Not only do a awhelming 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.680 majority of Americans not support what happened, but fifty eight 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:09.400 percent of Americans directly blame Trump according to MPR PBS poll. Now, 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:14.080 if you ask ani like meent is not nearly enough, 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.760 so everyone should be alarmed by that. But um, there 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:23.640 is eight percent of Republicans who fully support the ship 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:29.200 like they are behind what happened on January six, and 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:33.360 apparently that's who elected Republicans in Congress are representing at 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.800 this point. Regardless, the backlash has been severe for them 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.440 so far. A lot of America's biggest companies are suspending 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.120 our Nation to Republican congress members who objected to the 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:48.440 Electoral College's votes, including American Express, the Cross Blue Shield, Commerce, 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:53.480 bankdal Chemical, Marriott, AIRBNBA, Amazon A, t n D, Comcast, Disney, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:58.479 MasterCard for Google, Facebook, and more. UM. Speaking in Facebook 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.320 as many of us problem only know social media companies vanished, 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:06.440 Trump permanently suspending his Twitter account. He's been kicked off Twitch, YouTube, 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:12.039 and Facebook tools like TikTok and others um, though it's 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:17.400 unclear the permanence of those suspensions. The conservative alternative for Twitter, 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.560 Parlor was banished from app stores and essentially rendered inaccessible 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:23.720 as it became a cesspool for q and On and 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.480 Nazis just straight up planning kidnappings and murders out in 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.200 the open and shipped. Then there was Senator Josh Holly, 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:32.440 who was one of the leading members of the Trees 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.880 and Caucus, who was so upset that he couldn't make 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.359 black people's votes not count that he just had to 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.039 help Trump inspire a riot that killed a cop, but 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.119 he ended up losing his Simon and Schuster's book deal, 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.599 and he's asked her about that. All this, along with 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:49.960 the fact that people who participated in the riots have 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:53.000 been getting put on no fly lists, lit their jobs, 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:55.960 getting divorced, and ma called terrorists, the American riot has 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.839 being out a screech about their new favorite part of 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:02.240 the culture war inns the culture as I feel, all 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:06.400 this accountability is part of arguments that they're being canceled. 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.400 So today we're gonna be talking about cancel culture, what 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.200 it is, what it isn't, what we think of it, 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.680 and what his hip hop's reaction been to it in 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.280 this new climate that we're in. Later on, we're also 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.600 going to be chatting with hip hop artists and professor 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.360 at Bryant and Stranton College and Buffalo, n Y, Chucky Campbell, 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.120 about his newest album, The Curious Incidents and Cancel Culture, 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.240 and see if he can help us shed some light 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:31.960 on this a little bit. We're gonna get into all 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:47.280 of that after the job. Okay, So what is cancel culture. Well, 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:51.520 you guys know how I love my Wikipedia results, So 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:54.720 let's see what Wikipedia has to say. Okay, So if 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.720 you search cancel culture in Wikipedia, what it says is 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:01.640 cancel culture is a modern form of ostracism in which 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.520 someone is thrust out of a social or professional circle, 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.800 either online on social media, in the real world, or both. 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.160 Those who are subject to this ostracism are said to 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:17.280 be canceled. Marion Webster's notes that to cancel, as used 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.400 in the context, means to stop giving support to that person, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.560 while dictionary dot com it says in its pop Cultural 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:29.480 Dictionary defines cancel culture as withdrawing support or canceling a 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:33.440 public figure and companies after they have done or said 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:38.040 something considered objectionable or offensive. The expression cancel culture has 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.040 mostly negative connotations and is commonly used in debates on 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:46.240 free speech and censorship. The notion of cancel culture is 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:50.280 a variant of the term call out culture and constitutes 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.040 a form of boycott involving an individual, usually a celebrity, 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.439 who is deemed who have acted or spoken in a 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:00.240 questionable or controversial manner. For those at the receive even 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.400 end of cancel culture, the consequences can lead to loss 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:07.360 of reputation and income that can be hard to recover from. 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:12.679 So that's what you have in on Wikipedia. I mean, 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.640 I mean, I guess I agree with that. When you know, 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.960 if I hear the term cancel culture, I imagine that 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.840 most reasonable people kind of are thinking this when they 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.920 hear the term cancel culture. I mean, scratch that, I 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.040 don't even know what people think now. I mean, there's 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:35.360 been so much. It's been propagandized so much that it's like, 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.080 I don't even know what people are thinking. And maybe 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.440 everyone just like automatically thinks of like screeching hordes of 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:48.600 purple haired Antifa or something now because they think of 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.120 cancel culture people being canceled. I don't know, what do 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.040 you think about this definition? I feel like, um, the 0:09:55.120 --> 0:10:00.960 Wikipedia definition of cancel culture does neglect that financial element. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:02.559 I mean, I guess if you're thrust out of your 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:07.040 professional circle, with that comes some um financial harm like 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.839 loss of income, salary. Um we're seeing, you know with 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:17.640 the Republican Party, UM, loss of donations from big companies, 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.040 which actually I want to point out that some of 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:24.920 these companies UM have suspended donations all political campaigns. So 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.000 it's like great collapropment getting money out of politics. But 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.559 like this both sides is UM, that's a little ridiculous. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:36.719 It's kind of funny, but UM, yeah, I mean I 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.160 think these are pretty apt to Miriam Webster, you know, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:43.600 stop giving support for that person. Support can be material, social, um, 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.320 et cetera. Stuff like that gets at it pretty well. 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:53.319 I would I would, um say that the key thing 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:57.440 that's missing composition is discussion of accountability. That this to 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.200 me is a form of accountability. UM, that's like, Yo, 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.080 we're gonna hold you accountable by you know, punishing you 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.040 for what you've done. It's interesting to me that that 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:12.479 accountability is not really included among the way this uh 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:18.400 future of our society and media landscape is defined. Conservative 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.680 political analysts Ross do That wrote a piece for The 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.840 New York Times titled tenth Thesis about cancel culture, and 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:30.640 it's an interesting piece of insight into how traditional conservatives 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.480 interpreted these things. To his credit, he doesn't frame it 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.880 as a First Amendment issue, which many conservative types too. 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.440 Perhaps the most time of thing is what he what 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:43.760 he chose as his first thesis. Cancelation he says, properly 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.680 understood or first to an attack on someone's employment and 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:50.200 reputation by a determined collective of critics based on an 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.880 opinion or an action that it alleged to be disgraceful. 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:58.120 It is qualifying. Reputation and appointment are key terms here. 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:04.640 You're not simply you're not being hanceled if you um 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.240 have been canceled, if you're really being heckled or insulted. 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.880 So like what are your overall it's just your your 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:16.280 overall view on cancel culture. I mean, I have interesting 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:20.520 thoughts on cancel culture as an abolitionist one that does 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.480 believe in transformative justice, as a means of holding people 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.160 accountable for the harm that they do others, but also 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:33.080 calling them in to see see what they've done wrong, 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:37.319 to understand how they've harmed others, to change their behavior, 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.800 change their thinking so that they don't harm others in future. 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:45.280 And so I worry at times that cancel culture UM 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:51.640 replicates like carcero logics, uh, banishing someone just putting them 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.400 some other place, be in a physical space of a prison, 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:59.920 or casting them out of social circle, or you know, uh, 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:05.640 UM stripping them of their of their networks. UM. That 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.320 is ultimately is ultimately harmful. But at the same time, 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.079 I don't really understand what you I don't really understand 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.880 what else you can do with some people like UM. 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.240 Take for example, Marjorie Taylor Green having UM express support 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:29.199 for the executions of prominent democratic lawmakers UM and things 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:33.600 like that, and seeing how the rhetoric of UM you know, 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:38.240 stole an election, inspired a deadly mob then ended up 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.000 you know, seeing the lives of five people taken that 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.040 you know, two police officers who took their own lives 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.599 in the aftermath of the storming of the capitol. Um 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.880 like the lack of remorse, the lack of self um reflection, 0:13:52.000 --> 0:14:02.320 willingness to engage in like yeah, like reflection on once actions, uh, 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.240 resistance to accountability of any kind. Like I really don't 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.240 understand what else we can do with these people other 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:12.160 than like, all right, you're in time out until uh 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:13.960 you get your act together, and if you don't, at 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.000 least you're not enable to continue harming people by having 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:22.400 the material resources to um engage in campaigns that you know, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:26.160 wage war on the vulnerable, or you know, having these 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.520 platforms where you can inspire further violence. Things like that. Like, 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.560 I really don't know what else we can do. I'm 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.400 really interested to hear others and read others way in 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.080 on this From annapoligious perspective, it's like, if somebody really 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.360 doesn't want to gain accountability, really really doesn't want to 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.120 engage in process accountability, like what else are you supposed 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.720 to do with them? So, I mean, I don't know. 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.760 I don't think it's a bad thing to hold people accountable. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.320 I don't think it's I think it can be helpful 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:55.760 to inspire that reflection by showing people like your actions 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.440 have consequences, like you can't have your fancy platform or 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.280 your a she job if you funk around and hurt people. 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.440 Um So maybe step back and be listen. All right, 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.120 this sucks. Um maybe I should think about how all 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:15.320 my actions have harmed others. Um So, yeah, I don't 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.120 really know whether option we have in this day and age, 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.400 though I do think like engaging with singing around what 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.600 accountability can look like that brings people in and helps 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.560 transform your behavior is really important to do. I tend 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:34.240 to look at what is the opposite of that. So 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:40.240 if there's there's definitely mad instances where quote unquote cancel 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:45.120 culture can be like cringe, and there's even some instances 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.120 where it can kind of be dangerous and can kind 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.640 of just be like a go with the mob whatever whatever, 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.960 I'm mad, But the opposite of that is like just 0:15:55.080 --> 0:16:01.440 straight up bigotry. And you know, so, I don't know, 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.120 like I can deal with the annoyance and cringe factor 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.760 better than I could deal with it if just nobody 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:14.000 gave a fuck and there was zero accountability for anything. However, 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:20.320 I personally don't see the use in using activism or 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:27.320 organizational or boycott energy over stupid ship, you know what 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.240 I'm saying. And amongst stupid ship, I would be like, Yo, 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:37.080 why why are we organizing over like who's getting a 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.560 Netflix special or who's going to be in this movie 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.760 or who's voicing this character or whatever? You know what 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.520 I'm saying. It's like, I would rather that energy solely 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.360 be put to more important ship. And then once we 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:52.440 get through the checklist of important ship that we have 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.240 to do, then I guess we can direct some energy 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.360 to that. And I know people can chew gum and 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.320 walk at the same time, so whatever. But again, at 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:01.920 the end of the day, that's the aspect of the 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.680 ship that bothers me is like, damn, you know, y'all 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.200 are using all this energy over over that ship. But 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.520 other than that, yeah, it's just it's just annoying. It's 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:16.040 not really like I don't see it as a as 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.240 like this thing that is dominating society and is going 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:23.959 to make society collapse. Right by the name of Sarah 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.800 Hagee wrote an article for Time magazine called Cancel Culture 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.680 Isn't Real at least not in the way that people think. 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.400 And she made a pretty good point in this passage 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.600 here she says the idea is that if you do 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:41.240 something that others deemed problematic, you automatically lose all your currency, 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:45.359 your voice of silence. You're done. Those who condemn cancel 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.760 culture usually imply that it's unfair and indiscriminate. The problem 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.080 with this perspective is cancel culture isn't real, at least 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.639 not in the way that people believe it is. Instead, 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.600 it's turned into a catch all for when people in 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.320 power face consequences for their actions or receive any type 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.800 of criticism something that they're not used to. And that 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.159 right there at the heart of it is why I 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.399 just don't really funk with people who complain about cancel 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:15.840 culture like that. And I would disagree with her that 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.840 it's not necessarily a thing about rich or powerful, it's 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.960 just people in general, like people are starting to wrap 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.760 that ship up at any and all criticism. I think 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:31.119 um ms Haggy is completely on point with this um 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.160 it is turning into a catch all for when people 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.440 in power face any kinds of consequences for their action 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.840 or receive any type of criticism. UM, Like, I don't 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:44.000 know if J. K Rowling has experiencing sort of financial 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.879 hardship as a result of her transportic comments that have 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:53.160 led her to, you know, cry cancelation, Um, like from 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.800 what I understand, but still that books coming out and ship. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.520 So I mean like when people are so Bela getting 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.240 heckled online as I believe Mr do that was talking 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.160 about in his New York Times piece, and they want 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:12.440 to call it cancelation. It's like yo, Like, still, the 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.520 internet is a harsh place. You funk around, you find 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:22.080 out period. Um. Getting heckled, getting criticized is not is 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.480 not the same as being deep platform and people need 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:29.920 to start stop complaining the two. So I mentioned J. 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.800 K Rowling, even Murby Atwood, No Chomsky, Gary Kasparov, someone 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.000 Rushdie and over a hundred and forty other intellectual cultural 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:41.879 figures UM signed on an open letter UM called the 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.600 Letter on Justice and Debate for Harper's Magazine, which criticized 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.680 the current tour and public shaming and ostracism, ostracism, public 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:53.719 shaming and ostracism of those proposing views I e. Canceled culture. 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.360 But then with the letter, is that caught a lot 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.919 of it caused a huge cur fluffle at the time, 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:02.920 is that there's some dope people who signed it. There's 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:08.479 some respect to people, there are some grifters, there's definitely 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.360 some kuks. The diversity of people signed it was kind 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:16.400 of the gimmick of it. Journalist Jeff Yang criticized the letter, 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.600 writing for CNN dot com, it's hard not to see 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:24.119 the letters merely an elegantly written affirmation of elitism and privilege, 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.760 and he said that the signatories, in the face of 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.639 result and backlash, dismissed rebuttals and positioned themselves as be 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.359 leaguered victims of a current culture, turning their support for 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:37.680 open debate and free expression into an example of stark 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:42.720 hypocrisy or sly gas lighting. Public Seminar criticized the letters timing, 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.600 stating that the letter primarily blamed cancel culture for disrupting 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:49.919 free and open conversation at a moment during the George 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.640 Floyd protest when it was becoming clear what influences institutions 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.639 had on controlling the debate. There's a dope article in 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.000 the Washington Post about the letter by one of the 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:03.760 people who signed it, Phoebe Maltz Bovy who also wrote 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.480 the Perils of Privilege, and she breaks down in a 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.080 nutshell pretty much what the problem is with the freak 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.600 out over the cancel culture boogevan, and why it's important 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:15.240 you know that regular people don't get caught up in 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.800 that scene. She describes how she agreed with her understanding 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:22.160 of the gist of the letter quote that writer should 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.080 get to choose their topics and that progressive over correction 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:28.560 helps trump all free speech. Sometimes there's as an euthemism 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:31.360 for the right to hold forth allah archie bunker. It's 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.440 being bigger trade from the comfort of an armchair, consequence free. 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:39.080 I happen to believe that's all of this, and she continues, 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.359 but on a more principal level, I credit here was 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:45.800 a list made up of largely uncancellables Margaret Atwood, J K. 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:50.240 Bowling and high profile and high profile you hold suspects Marklima, 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.600 Stephen Pinker and yes a few expected and yes a 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.000 few unexpected names here and there, Noam chom Ski. The 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:02.520 message was is sound the messengers as a collective risk 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:07.320 obscaring it. I mean, no Times has gotten trouble before 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.640 for I think defending if I recall correctly a holocaust, 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.960 and I are not for his beliefs for his right 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:20.800 to publish work. Um uh, you know about his beliefs, 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:24.080 and so I you know, I wasn't super surprised to 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:26.360 see his name there. Oh I don't fucking I don't 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:31.280 care about UM. But the thing, it's interesting that like 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.080 it's like an interesting reflection of like how cancel culture works, 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.879 where UM people are like on board with the idea 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.000 until they realize that people are agreeing with them that 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:46.880 they don't like UM or it's like oh wait, wait, 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:49.520 that person is down with this, that person is now 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:53.359 on this, where like cancel culture is okay as long 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:55.560 as it's not happening to you or to someone that 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:59.240 you agree with. Yeah, funk with that heavy. I mean 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.240 it's like we all want free and open debate, but 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.240 it's like I don't wanna just me personally. It's like 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.800 I don't want to be associated with any whack ship 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:11.760 when I'm trying to make like a good point, you 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:14.639 know what I'm saying. So I don't know, it's like 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:20.119 whatever objections to quote unquote cancel culture that I may have, 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:23.520 it's like I don't want to express that ship because 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:26.480 I don't want to be fucking associated with Ben Shapiro 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:30.200 or Dave Ruben like that if you you listen to 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:34.199 those motherfucker's like, cancel culture is worse than fucking climate 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:38.639 change and ship. So it's like when they're mucking up 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:42.040 that argument against it, it's like, you know, it's not 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:44.120 really that important enough an argument for you to make. 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:52.560 I'm just gonna sit this one out. So today we 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:56.360 are talking with a good friend of mine, Chucky Campbell. 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:59.520 He is a professor at the Bryant and Stratton College 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:02.840 and buff Low and Why, where he teaches media and ethics, 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:09.200 public speaking, information, literacy, learning, communities, and almost any other 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:12.159 writing and communication course at the college. He has a 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:16.879 PhD in English Literature, Creative Writing, and Composition Rhetoric from 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:19.879 the University of Southern Mississippi. He's the winner of the 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:24.600 Eastern Kentucky University Fiction Award, uh the Julia Visor Award 0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:28.119 presented by the National College Learning Center and Association, and 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:32.919 numerous other awards. He's also a national touring hip hop artists. 0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:36.040 Who's the newest album, Curious Incidents in Cancel Culture? That's 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:39.200 out right now? How are you doing, Chucky? I'm doing well. 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:41.800 Thank you guys for inviting me on. Yeah, it's great 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:43.639 to have you. Good to have you. How are you 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:47.800 holding up in these times? Um about like everybody else, 0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:52.040 very confused about the strange things happening. But uh, for 0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:54.280 the most part, I'm doing well well. I mean I'm 0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:57.919