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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. Today

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Speaker 1: we're going to dive into some listener mail and you

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Speaker 1: know we have we actually have two different carney the

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Speaker 1: mailbots here to help us today. The one on the

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Speaker 1: left here is just bright silver gleaming like a suit

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Speaker 1: of armor from the movie ex Caliber. And then, uh,

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Speaker 1: the one on the right and resembles a like a

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Speaker 1: rusty death bucket, like a suit of armor from Monty

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Speaker 1: Python and the Holy Grail. Yeah, that's pretty much what

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Speaker 1: he looks like. Uh, how how did did did we

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Speaker 1: get two carneys in these two different states. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: because we did that massive upgrade on Carney. You know,

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Speaker 1: we we started replacing some of his parts, um, upgrading

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Speaker 1: apart here apart air, and then we just kept doing it.

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Speaker 1: And then on the other end, we when when we

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Speaker 1: were done the used parts, we just started assembling those

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Speaker 1: as well, until we had two complete carnis the carney

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Speaker 1: in which we had replaced every last piece with a new,

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Speaker 1: shiny piece, and then the carney that we built out

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Speaker 1: of the old pieces. Now the question is which Carney

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Speaker 1: is going to deliver us this week's listener mail. I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna I'm just gonna close my eyes and put

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Speaker 1: my hand out and um and I guess hope that

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Speaker 1: I don't get pricked by the rusty one just because

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure my tetnas shots up to date. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Fun fact, Russ does not cause tetanus, does it not? Well,

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Speaker 1: there you go. So it's okay that he has razor

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Speaker 1: sharp rusty claws. It's a okay all right now. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: no matter what, we never have time to read all

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Speaker 1: of the great listener mail we get. So if you

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Speaker 1: have sent us a message and we haven't been able

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Speaker 1: to respond and you don't hear it on the show today,

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Speaker 1: please please don't be discouraged. It's not because we don't

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Speaker 1: appreciate the mail we get. There's there's just a lot

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Speaker 1: of great stuff out there and and no time to

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Speaker 1: attend to it all. But we really do appreciate all

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Speaker 1: the wonderful community case we get from you lovely people

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Speaker 1: out there. Yeah, because even though we have twice the

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Speaker 1: Carney now, we only still have the two of us,

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Speaker 1: So there's only so much we can do, and there's

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Speaker 1: only so much time. That's right. Let's jump right in, Robert,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's do it. I'm gonna put out my hand.

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Speaker 1: It looks like Shiny Carney is bringing me something to

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Speaker 1: read here. All right. This one comes to us from Alex.

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Speaker 1: Alex says, Hi, Robert and Joe, your podcast is wonderful,

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Speaker 1: and although it was already very good to begin with,

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Speaker 1: I feel you two are getting even better and better

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Speaker 1: because we keep replacing parts. That's what's happened. Keep up

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Speaker 1: the great work. We're big fans. I have a comment

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Speaker 1: about the ship of theseus episode. I'm a particle physicist

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Speaker 1: by training, so I was thinking about your discussion a

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Speaker 1: bit from that perspective. I don't claim to have any

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Speaker 1: definite answers, but I think the theory of quantum mechanics

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Speaker 1: adds more depth and weirdness to the problem of identity

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Speaker 1: on top of what you've already discussed. In quantum mechanics,

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Speaker 1: different particles of the same type are treated as truly indistinguishable.

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Speaker 1: Two particles can be separated in space, but in the

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Speaker 1: theory they are described by one wave function, which simply

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Speaker 1: features a high probability to find a particle in region A,

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Speaker 1: as well as a high probability to find a particle

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Speaker 1: in region B with no mention that it's particle Alice

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Speaker 1: here and that it's particle Bob there. My tentative takeaway

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Speaker 1: is this, if a quantum teleportation machine were to transfer

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Speaker 1: the quantum state of the atoms in my body sitting

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Speaker 1: in place A onto a stream of photons, and then

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Speaker 1: transfer that onto atoms in a place B a mile away,

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Speaker 1: I don't see a real justification to treat the newly

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Speaker 1: created atoms a mile away is anything thing other than

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Speaker 1: truly the parts of my own body which have been

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Speaker 1: moved there. I still feel a bit queasy to hand

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Speaker 1: over my fate to this machine, but rationally I'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear a discussion of these quantum physics aspects of

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Speaker 1: the ship of the Theseius sometime. Cheers Alex. Now, that

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Speaker 1: is an interesting question because there's this obvious preference people

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Speaker 1: have that like, oh, if I'm going to be teleported

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Speaker 1: and it will still be me, I want the particles

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Speaker 1: that originally made my body to be the same particles

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Speaker 1: that make up the copy of me. Now, that's if

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Speaker 1: you're teleporting information about your body from one place to another.

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Speaker 1: That's just probably not going to be the case, right,

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Speaker 1: You're gonna have to build from different particles. And Alex

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Speaker 1: is saying, why would that really make a difference. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that really would make a difference. I

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Speaker 1: would think that the problem would be the interruption of

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Speaker 1: the continuous existence of you from during that moment of transition,

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Speaker 1: basically what I said before, where you just need somebody

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Speaker 1: to lie to you about that interruption. You know, you

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Speaker 1: need somebody to just to to gloss over the more

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Speaker 1: problematic details of your teleportation system. So I think you

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Speaker 1: said this before, you'd rather live in a world where

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Speaker 1: people are teleporting they are just actually dying every time

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Speaker 1: they do it. But nobody is it well. But but

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Speaker 1: I guess the positive spin is you're not only dying,

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Speaker 1: you're being reborn. I mean, this is kind of what, uh,

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Speaker 1: what what Seth Brundel was talking about in Cronenberg's The Fly,

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Speaker 1: The idea that it's it's like there's a purifying aspect

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Speaker 1: to the teleportation. I believe this was some of what

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Speaker 1: he was talking about before things began going terribly wrong

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Speaker 1: for him, mixing his DNA with that of a fly,

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Speaker 1: but as being reborn worthwhile if you don't know you're

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Speaker 1: being reborn, Say, for example, people say, you know, I'd

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Speaker 1: love to be able to go back and start over

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Speaker 1: my life again, to do it right this time. But

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Speaker 1: if you were to go back and start over without

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Speaker 1: the memory of your previous life, how would anything, Why

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Speaker 1: would that be any better? Why would that change anything?

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Speaker 1: It seems like the value of being reborn is the

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Speaker 1: knowledge of what came before and the knowledge that you

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Speaker 1: have been reborn, or to just the idea that you've

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Speaker 1: been reborn. I mean, somebody could just fool you into

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Speaker 1: thinking teleportation is possible. You walk into a box, there's

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Speaker 1: some lights, you walk out of the box. But if

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Speaker 1: you feel will renewed right then it could have an

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Speaker 1: overall positive effect. Speaking of Cronenberg, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you've read about this as well, but supposedly, uh, David

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Speaker 1: Cronenberg has has a screenplay that he wrote that is

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Speaker 1: a sequel to The Fly that doesn't necessarily contain any monsters.

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Speaker 1: It's more about something. I don't know that there are

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Speaker 1: any more additional details out there, but it is more

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Speaker 1: concerned with teleportation itself than it is with any kind

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Speaker 1: of monstrous side effects of the technology. Oh, I think

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Speaker 1: you could write a great psychological horror movie it's purely

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Speaker 1: about teleportation without any like DNA fusion or you know,

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Speaker 1: becoming half fly or anything like that. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: one of my hopes that either Cronenberg will get to

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Speaker 1: direct that script, where somebody will one day direct that script.

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Speaker 1: I'm very interested, um what he's exploring in that because

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Speaker 1: because we're also talking about later day Cronenberg. Cronenberg who

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Speaker 1: hasn't really been dipping his toes into the the squeamish

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Speaker 1: horror content of his his earlier filmography. So the more

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Speaker 1: recent Cronenberg version, it's just got a bunch of like

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Speaker 1: mafia guys who get into a teleporter together and they

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Speaker 1: come out having an existential crisis. I'd probably be down

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Speaker 1: for that, you know. And I do love so many that,

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Speaker 1: like the transcendent ideas that were at least briefly discussed

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Speaker 1: in The Fly, like the idea towards the end that

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Speaker 1: not only is he gonna cure himself by climbing into

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Speaker 1: the telepod uh with Gina Davis's character, you know, but

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Speaker 1: they will become one perfect being you know that there's

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Speaker 1: this this fusion that will take place, that will create

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Speaker 1: a higher human. Yeah, and that embodies some of the

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Speaker 1: questions I guess about the whole teleportation idea. Like to him,

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Speaker 1: that's an idea of like addition or becoming better into her.

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Speaker 1: That's obviously an idea of obliteration or destruction. Yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Also about the ship of Theseus, this comes to us

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Speaker 1: from our listener, and and writes, Hi, Robert and Joe,

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Speaker 1: I'm a longtime listener of your show, and I'm writing

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Speaker 1: in to respond to your great episode on the ship

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Speaker 1: of Theseus. I've never heard of the mythic iteration of

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Speaker 1: this concept, but I'm familiar with it from the Romantic

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Speaker 1: poets of England. I wouldn't be surprised if they built

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Speaker 1: off of it from some of the philosophers you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: including Hobbes. In a September eight, nineteen letter to his

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Speaker 1: brother and sister in law, John Keats, that's the romantic

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Speaker 1: poet John Keats takes a personal and religious approach to

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Speaker 1: the question. I've included the excerpt here. Quote from the

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Speaker 1: time you left me. Our friends say I have altered completely,

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Speaker 1: am not the same person. Perhaps in this letter. I

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Speaker 1: am for in a letter, one takes up one's existence

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Speaker 1: from the time we last met. I dare say you

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Speaker 1: have altered. Also every man does. Our bodies every seven

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Speaker 1: years are completely fresh material seven years ago. It was

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Speaker 1: not this hand that clinched itself against Hammond. We are

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Speaker 1: like the relict garments of a saint. The same and

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Speaker 1: not the same for the careful monks patchet and patchet

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Speaker 1: for St. Anthony's shirt. Oh that's nice. Yeah, I like that.

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Speaker 1: That brings in. And I so if you believe, for example,

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Speaker 1: that an item can be holy, that's another question about identity.

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Speaker 1: Imagine you say you believe uh in like a piece

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Speaker 1: of the True Cross or something, one of these medieval relics,

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Speaker 1: and it's gradually losing splinters, but having splinters replaced by

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Speaker 1: people who are working on it. Once the entire thing

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Speaker 1: has been replaced, it does still have holy power. But

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Speaker 1: this is why you notice it. In some of the

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Speaker 1: museums that you go to, There'll be a tiny vial

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Speaker 1: of vampire blood uh inside the temperature control compartment with it,

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Speaker 1: so they can see just how holy the artifact still is.

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Speaker 1: That would be a good test, and continues I love

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Speaker 1: that the section gets into different layers of identity, both

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Speaker 1: the one self reported and or time traveled to e g. Quote,

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Speaker 1: taking up one's existence from the time we last met unquote,

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Speaker 1: and also the one created by others, as in the

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Speaker 1: monks reconstructing the relic ironically in trying to preserve the original.

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Speaker 1: This also touches on the biological transformation that you mentioned

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Speaker 1: in the podcast, the seven to ten year recreation of

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Speaker 1: the cells in the body. As for identity being defined

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Speaker 1: by the static reality of an object or its constant

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Speaker 1: evolution in a process, Shelly weighs in with a poem

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Speaker 1: called mutability, which concludes on the following stanzas. So this

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Speaker 1: is Percy Biss Shelly we rest a dream has power

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Speaker 1: to poison sleep. We rise one wandering thought pollutes the

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Speaker 1: day we feel, conceive or reason, laugh or weep, embrace

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Speaker 1: fond woe, or cast our cares away. It is the same,

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Speaker 1: for be it joy or sorrow, the path of its

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Speaker 1: departure still is free man's yesterday. May ne'er be like

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Speaker 1: his morrow, not may endure. But mutability. To me that

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Speaker 1: embodies very much the the idea of the Heraclitis type

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Speaker 1: idea of pant ray. Everything flows, it's all flox, it's

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Speaker 1: all change, but a continues. While he's maybe talking more

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Speaker 1: about emotional states here than comprehensive identity, the final thought

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Speaker 1: of the poem sides with the argument that existence is

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Speaker 1: defined by transformation, which brings up the question of whether

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Speaker 1: or not change itself can be defined as a constant. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: it's just some tie ins from yet another realm. I

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Speaker 1: love your show and the curious exuberance with which it

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Speaker 1: addresses these potentially terrifying existential questions. Thanks a lot, Thanks

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Speaker 1: for a lot of great listening sincerely, Anne, Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much. And I always love when people come at

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Speaker 1: us with poetry. Yes, and I particularly like the specimens

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Speaker 1: that she presented us with. With there, I want to

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Speaker 1: skip to another bit of listener mail here that came

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Speaker 1: to us about the Ship of Theseus. And this came

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Speaker 1: to us from Diana, Diana Rides, Hi, Robert and Joe.

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Speaker 1: I've been listening for a while, sometimes by myself, sometimes

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Speaker 1: with the kids. Recently, my seven year old daughter and

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Speaker 1: I were listening to the Ship of Theseus episode and

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Speaker 1: I thought i'd ask her the question if you had

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Speaker 1: a toy and replaced all the parts that toy with

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Speaker 1: new different parts, would it be the same toy? Her

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Speaker 1: unequivocal answer was yes. When I ask why it we

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Speaker 1: would be the same and not different, her response was

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Speaker 1: because it's the same toy. The new parts don't make

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Speaker 1: it different. Yeah. So there you go. From the mouths

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Speaker 1: of babes love the show, Diana. I really like this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this this email because it reminds me of the the

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Speaker 1: whole scenario of the replacing a lost toy, which is

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Speaker 1: something that uh and imagine a number of you have

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Speaker 1: experienced as a child or perhaps you've you've played a

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Speaker 1: part in the scenario as a parent. But obviously, when

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Speaker 1: you replace a toy, especially if it's a stuffed animal,

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Speaker 1: the replacement can often look just like a completely different

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Speaker 1: species compared to the like the worn out thing that

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Speaker 1: you had to replace, you know, uh, like it becomes

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Speaker 1: the essentially the rusty carney, Like the rusty carney is

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Speaker 1: the one you love, and then when you're presented with

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Speaker 1: this brand new, untarnished carney, you're like, that's not carney,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's not you know, uh, socks the bear socks.

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Speaker 1: The bear has only one eye and his his fur isn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, bright and fluffy, it's it's mad at and gray. Like,

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Speaker 1: it's the wear and the tear that that that is

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Speaker 1: that is part and partial to the identity of the thing.

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Speaker 1: But it sounds like Diana's child is saying, maybe that

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Speaker 1: it's not right that like, even if you do replace

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Speaker 1: all of the body parts of Socks the bear with newer,

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Speaker 1: fresher body parts, it's the same bear. Yeah, So maybe

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Speaker 1: this is just h This is just me like looking

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Speaker 1: back on childhood experiences and you know, and and and

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Speaker 1: looking at my my own child's experiences through the eyes

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Speaker 1: of a parent. Yeah, maybe that ultimately doesn't matter to

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Speaker 1: the kid. They're like, yeah, Socks is great. Now, look

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Speaker 1: at him. He's he's doing great, He's he's wonderful. It

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Speaker 1: looks like he's brand new, exactly what I wanted, you know.

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Speaker 1: With the kind of unreality of childhood, the kind of

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Speaker 1: hallucinatory quality of the child's view of the world, I

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Speaker 1: can almost imagine that I could have been a little

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Speaker 1: kid and had some of my toys replaced with clearly

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Speaker 1: newer versions of themselves, And I wonder if I would

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Speaker 1: have noticed, or if I would have thought anything was unusual,

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Speaker 1: or if I just would have thought, hey, it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's even better now, Well, sometimes the function would be improved, right,

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Speaker 1: like like I remember having two boba FETs. There was

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Speaker 1: the original Boba fet that I played with so much

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Speaker 1: that he couldn't stand up anymore like his his limited

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Speaker 1: joints were just they would just swivel around, so he

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Speaker 1: could only like lay down, that was it. Or you know,

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Speaker 1: he could fly through the air, I guess. But it

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Speaker 1: was only the newer boba Fete that could actually stand upright,

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Speaker 1: which was more important. I think ultimately standing upright was

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Speaker 1: more important. The floppy boba fet was had limited usage. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's one from our listener and frequent contributor Jim writing

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Speaker 1: also about the Ship of Theseus Jim rights, Robert and Joe.

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Speaker 1: One can visit a real life ship of Theseus in Boston.

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Speaker 1: The USS Constitution Old ironsides. She is the oldest commissioned

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Speaker 1: naval vessel still afloat. She makes it lea least one

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Speaker 1: quote turnaround a trip in the Boston Harbor every year,

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Speaker 1: where they take her out and dock her back again

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Speaker 1: in the opposite side for even more wear and tear

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Speaker 1: while docked. I was in Boston in the early nineteen

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Speaker 1: nineties where she was under major renovations. She was barely

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Speaker 1: a hull and timbers from what I remember. About a

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Speaker 1: dozen years later, I visited again when she was fully

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Speaker 1: restored and beautiful. I asked our guide on the tour

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Speaker 1: how much of the ship was original. He said about

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Speaker 1: fifteen percent as original, mostly below the waterline. He then

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Speaker 1: motioned towards the bow of the ship, toward the sick deck.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what a sick deck is anyway, sick

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Speaker 1: deck and said, quote, do you see those brass nuts

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Speaker 1: and bolts in the bulkhead? They were made by Paul Revere.

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Speaker 1: I was impressed. Um. He mentions that Malcolm Gladwell talked

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Speaker 1: about the Ship of Theseus in an episode of the

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Speaker 1: Revisionist History podcast. Yes, and I do remember. I do

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Speaker 1: remember listening to that one. Now I believe he was.

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Speaker 1: I believe this was the the golf episode. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: explains it so, Jim Rights. This was an episode about

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Speaker 1: golf courses on California. California property taxes are based upon

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Speaker 1: the value of your property when you purchased it, not

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Speaker 1: on current value. This was to prevent retired couples who

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Speaker 1: owned their houses from being forced to move due to

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Speaker 1: taxes when the value of their home skyrocketed. But what

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Speaker 1: about the Gulf country Club who owns them? They are

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Speaker 1: owned by the members, much like the members of a

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Speaker 1: credit union. But when does membership change so as to

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Speaker 1: recalculate the tax? The tax regulators determined that an individual

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Speaker 1: member leaving or joining was not enough to not enough

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Speaker 1: of a change to trigger a new property value. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: the golf courses are taxed that there are property values

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Speaker 1: from decades ago, even if the entire membership from those

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Speaker 1: original days has completely turned over. Given this logic, the

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Speaker 1: THESEUS Country Club never changes its ownership, especially for tax purposes,

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Speaker 1: even if the entire membership turns over multiple times over

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Speaker 1: the decades. And then he also has a ps with

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Speaker 1: Star Trek transporter issues. I don't know, we could get

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Speaker 1: into those maybe maybe not sure. I'm I'm I'm positive

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Speaker 1: that um our our producer Alex would would would would

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Speaker 1: prefer that we get into these teleportation issues from track

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Speaker 1: so Jim Rights. In the old show, some sort of

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Speaker 1: cosmic dust causes Kirk to reassemble twice on the transporter.

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Speaker 1: He was split into good and evil. It was their

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Speaker 1: Jecklin Highe homage. In the Next Generation, Riker is found

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Speaker 1: stranded as an outcast on a waste land of a planet.

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Speaker 1: But hasn't he been on the Enterprise for years? He

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Speaker 1: had been on the barren planet when with a previous

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Speaker 1: ship before the Next Generation started. When beamed up from

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Speaker 1: the previous assignment, his signal was split by something in

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Speaker 1: the atmosphere. One copy materialized on his ship, the other

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Speaker 1: bounced back to the surface of the planet where he

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Speaker 1: re materialized, but no one knew the stranded Ricker wasn't

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Speaker 1: too pleased that no one had come looking for him.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, what if that just happened? It turns out

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Speaker 1: it just happens all the time, like one out of

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Speaker 1: every five teleportations, and Star Trek ends up shooting a

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Speaker 1: random copy of you either to the surface of the

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Speaker 1: of the deserted planet or you know or you know,

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Speaker 1: into the walls. It is a galaxy full of like

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Speaker 1: Kirks and the you know, the red Shirt away parties. Now,

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Speaker 1: this next one, he mentions, is one of the episodes

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Speaker 1: I remember the most uh from watching Star Trek The

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Speaker 1: Next Generation as a kid, and yet I totally forgot

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Speaker 1: about this whole uh you know, teleportation ship of theseus

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Speaker 1: angle right gim rights. In the next generation the Dyson's

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Speaker 1: Fear episode, we meet Mr Scott from the old show,

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Speaker 1: but he hasn't aged from the movies, which took place

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Speaker 1: decades previously. How he had put himself into a form

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Speaker 1: of stasis I don't remember exactly why, which placed him

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Speaker 1: in an infinite disassemble slash as symbol cycle, basically freezing

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Speaker 1: time until he was found. Yes, I forgot all about

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Speaker 1: that because it's it's a pretty distracting aspect of that

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Speaker 1: episode that there's a dycense here and if you you

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Speaker 1: were like me, you never encountered that concept before. It

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Speaker 1: was pretty mind blowing enough so that it overshadowed the

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Speaker 1: sort of glitching uh teleporter mishaps of of of Dr

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Speaker 1: Scott here, Mr Scott, Mr Scott say, I was never

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Speaker 1: a classic track guy. I'm not sure what his credentials are.

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Speaker 1: I've been I've been lashed by our fans enough about

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Speaker 1: not having sufficient treknowledge. General Scott, that's correct, that's correct,

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Speaker 1: Admiral Dr Scott dds um one. Last note in Voyager

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Speaker 1: two characters information was mixed somehow. It wasn't a fifty

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Speaker 1: fifty mix. It was more like a sixty forty mix.

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Speaker 1: In both cases, the sixty personality wasn't too keen on

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Speaker 1: sharing their bodies with the other. I only saw this

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Speaker 1: episode once, and when it originally aired, I think the

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Speaker 1: two characters were male and female. I have a memory

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Speaker 1: that they cast two different actors to play each so

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Speaker 1: as to make the fusion even more realistic. Oh nice, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't usually think a Star Trek is realistic, but

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Speaker 1: uh well, I'd explored a lot of territory. I will

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Speaker 1: say this. Uh. I am definitely pro Star Trek, especially

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Speaker 1: Next Generation and the Space nine. Uh And I'm not

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Speaker 1: really a fan of golf, so I will say check

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Speaker 1: out Star Trek by all means, but also check out

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Speaker 1: that Malcolm Gladwell a revisionist history episode about golf. He

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Speaker 1: he promises at the beginning that he says that he

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Speaker 1: hates golf, and by end, by the end of the episode,

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Speaker 1: he hopes that he thinks that you'll hate golf as well.

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Speaker 1: Uh And, and I think I did hate golf even

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Speaker 1: more after listening to that episode. It's a great podcast.

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Speaker 1: It just fills you with insightful rage. It's great for

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Speaker 1: road trips. Okay, maybe we should look at a couple

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Speaker 1: more Ship of THESEUS mails. All right, here's another one.

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Speaker 1: This one comes to us from Marcos. I love your podcast.

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Speaker 1: I have to say it's my favorite way of passing

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Speaker 1: time on my commute. Conversation and conjecture turn a undane

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Speaker 1: daily trip into a timeless voyage. I was voyaging on

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Speaker 1: your Ship of Theseus episode when it occurred to me

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Speaker 1: that our constitution, by by this means the the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Constitution has in a way become a document of THESEUS.

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Speaker 1: The words like planks, have warped and rotted in a way,

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Speaker 1: and have been replaced each generation by new interpretations of

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Speaker 1: the same letters. It's as if each year a plank

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Speaker 1: is removed, studied, whittled, and placed back, so that the

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Speaker 1: same ship is now one of immense complexity and context.

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Speaker 1: Even a strict structuralist interpretation fills the same words with

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Speaker 1: more subtlety and complexity than the original carpenters ever did.

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Speaker 1: I'm also thinking that the physical U. S. S Constitution

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Speaker 1: might embody an actual example of a true modernship of THESEUS.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting parallel. Thanks for adding insight to my

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Speaker 1: otherwise absent drive another reference to the old Iron Sides.

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Speaker 1: But this is interesting about the document because I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously exactly this kind of question comes up in judicial philosophy, right.

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Speaker 1: You know, judges are trying to interpret how should the

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Speaker 1: constant who san applies to laws we write today? And

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Speaker 1: it's a tricky task because the Constitution was written a

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Speaker 1: long time ago and not anticipating all kinds of stuff

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Speaker 1: that's come up since then. Do you say that the

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Speaker 1: Constitution embodies what the spirit of people expressing the same

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Speaker 1: sentiments would probably be saying today, or should we just

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Speaker 1: try to pretend somebody wrote these words yesterday and read

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Speaker 1: them to mean exactly what they should literally mean in

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Speaker 1: our usage, or uh, should it should we look to

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Speaker 1: the letters of the people who wrote it and see,

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Speaker 1: you know, what did they really mean when they wrote this.

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Speaker 1: That's complicated enough without getting into the various agendas that

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Speaker 1: would influence one in in in various interpretations. Oh sure,

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Speaker 1: of course, I guess that's taking the idea of judicial

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Speaker 1: philosophy at face value, which you know, obviously there's some

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Speaker 1: judicial philosophy that's probably just motivated reasoning for people's own

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Speaker 1: personal politics, you know, speaking of of politicians, I mean

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Speaker 1: something like the Senate is is kind of like a

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Speaker 1: ship of theseis as well. Right, oh yeah, we're always

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Speaker 1: swapping out new parts for the old parts, and they

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Speaker 1: are a lot of the parts are rather old. Um.

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Speaker 1: But if we were to replace half the members of

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Speaker 1: the U. S. Senate would say amphibians, it would still

426
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 1: be the Senate, even though it would have far more

427
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: Amphibians than it currently has. Mr Toad goes to Washington.

428
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: There you go. Well, at this point, I feel like

429
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: we should take a break and then come back and

430
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 1: tackle some more listener mail. Thank you, thank you. All right,

431
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: we're back. Okay. This next one comes to us from

432
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: our listener Ian. It concerns viruses high there. I only

433
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: discovered your podcast a couple of months ago, and I

434
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 1: don't know how I coped without it. I'm a my

435
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: cross capist. I spend much of my day working in

436
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: the dark alone and trying not to move much. But

437
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: that does mean I get three or four hours a

438
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: day to listen to podcasts, and I get to see

439
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: things that nobody else ever has. Have you ever thought

440
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 1: about doing an episode on viruses. If we have school

441
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: trips in at work, or it's just a quiet day,

442
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: we go virus spotting in the pond outside the lab

443
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: and the results are absolutely staggering. Hardly anyone realizes the

444
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: extent of viruses in the world. They outnumber us. In fact,

445
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: they outnumber every living cell on the planet, and there

446
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: are a major driving force of evolution, not just through

447
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: selection pressure, but the vast scale of cross species gene swapping.

448
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: They facilitate eight hundred million viruses land on every square

449
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: meter of our planet's surface every day. They're around ten

450
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: to the eight in every milli liter of seawater. More

451
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: than that in our pond. They reckon to kill a

452
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: third of every cell in the ocean every day. If

453
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: that's not mind blowing enough, we found giant viruses in

454
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: the drip tray of a water cooler. This dude and

455
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: and Ian attaches a picture is five nimes across and

456
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: lives in our coffee room, and there is a suitably

457
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: evil looking metal album cover here. It's kind of this, uh,

458
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: this whirling void of a hexagon in a gray background.

459
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 1: It it's kind of love craft Ian. It's inviting me

460
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: into the dark with it. It. That's kind of it

461
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 1: has a kind of a black hole feeling to it,

462
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, I continues, if you're ever in the UK,

463
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: drop us a line and we'll let you drive an

464
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 1: electron microscope. Keep the episodes coming. My coffee strained brain

465
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: depends on it. Ian, Well, thank you so much. Ian.

466
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: We I don't know if we'll ever get to test

467
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: drive an electron microscope with you, but it sounds fun.

468
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: And actually we I think have talked about doing an

469
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: episode on on viruses. Uh we have both um the

470
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: organism and uh, we've we've talked about the computer viruses

471
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: as well. It's it's been a long time since I've

472
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: looked at this, but I remember there being some interesting,

473
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: um parallel questions one can ask about viruses and computer

474
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: viruses and their their status as as as living entities.

475
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: All right, here's another piece of listener mail that comes

476
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: to us. Uh. This this one has to do with

477
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: our episode on teasing that that recently came out, where

478
00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: we talked about this curious phenomenon of of of of

479
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: human interaction that is often difficult to to make sense

480
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: of and they also difficult to figure out, like what

481
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: is uh, what is playful teasing and what is harmful teasing?

482
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 1: So this one comes to us from Rachel quote, I

483
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 1: just finished listening to your excellent episode on teasing. That's

484
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: not meant in an ironic way. I actually did think

485
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: it was an excellent episode. The line between teasing and

486
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: bullying can be so blurry. I was teased and bullied

487
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: a lot as a kid, so I identified a great

488
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 1: deal with what you were saying. I wondered what your

489
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: research revealed, if it touched on at all about the

490
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: roast of certain prominent individuals, such as comedians or politicians,

491
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: since this ritualized form of socially acceptable teasing can be

492
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: quite mean spirited at times. I loved your mention also

493
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: of teasing through the pet. We do this a lot

494
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: at our house. We have a cat, our dog recently passed,

495
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: and she is often the butt of jokes that simultaneously

496
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: earned her a lot of attention. My husband might be

497
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: holding the cat in an awkward way that really displays

498
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: how big she is, or exposes her belly and says

499
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: something like, quote, getting a bit plump there, slippers. Her

500
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: name is George, and she's a tortoise shell. I might

501
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: also and I might also respond with something like, if

502
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: she keeps eating all her food and treats like a

503
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: good girl, we might even be able to get a

504
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: pair of gloves out of her too. We'll get her

505
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: nice and tubby. Yet I'm also certain she is trying

506
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: to kill me. I tell people, I'm certain she is

507
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: a reincarnated mafia princess, and she's basically held onto the

508
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: same business model. She is a homicidal sociopath with a

509
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: mafia style flare for vengeance. She's a great foil for

510
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: when I stumble into something on my own, I can

511
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: always blame it on her. Sometimes, if she was stretched

512
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: out in one of her more hedonistic poses on some

513
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: particularly posha perch, like a fresh laundered or folded comforter,

514
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: one of us will express the concern that she may

515
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: not be getting enough rest. Probably far too much about

516
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: our cat. But I am home all day with her.

517
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: She is the subject of much teasing. I look forward

518
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: to your next cast. Keep them coming, you keep me

519
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: saying at work, this is very familiar kind of pet roasting. Yeah, um,

520
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: what is it that's so fun about roasting a pet?

521
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: You you don't dislike your pet, You like your pet.

522
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: A lot, but it's really fun to make fun of them. Yeah,

523
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: I don't know it. It really keeps their status in check,

524
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, like they no matter how how how pompous

525
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: or loud they may be. Now, as for the roasting culture,

526
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: like the celebrity roast and all, I don't remember specifically

527
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: running across anything, but but it might be out there.

528
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: It is certainly interesting because it is this this area

529
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: of comedy that gets uh, it gets gets very sharp

530
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: at times and and can I feel like has a

531
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: has a tendency to uh, to get a little out

532
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: of control sometimes, you know what I'm saying. Um, But

533
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: then again, it is a very ancient form of comedy.

534
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you go back to the ancient Greeks and like,

535
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: and make making fun of politicians was was a central

536
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: aspect of some of our earliest examples of comedy. Yeah,

537
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say, if you're gonna use harsh,

538
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: biting mockery, it's good that it's directed at people who are,

539
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, in high status positions of power. Now in

540
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: some cases though, it is of course comedians roasting other comedians,

541
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: and that may be a special category. Uh, I mean

542
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: that I would be interesting to hear fould be interesting

543
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: to hear from a professional comedian stand up comedian out

544
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: there on this topic, because I know there is probably

545
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: a lot of of ribbing going on there on just

546
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: a regular basis, and a lot of comedy is clearly

547
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: about pushing boundaries, Like how mean can you be in

548
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: in roasting is probably one of the boundaries people are

549
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: going to experiment with, right though, certainly at this point,

550
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: if you agree to be the subject of a celebrity roast,

551
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you know what's in store for you, so

552
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: you can't complain, I guess, But you gotta wonder, like

553
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: why do people do it? I mean, do they think, well,

554
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: I'm so great, everybody's gonna be nice to me at

555
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: my roast. Well, it's in a way, it's kind of

556
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: like we even that episode we talked about the test

557
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: of the King. Right, if the king can set there

558
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: and be a big good sport about it, even when

559
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: it's vicious, Uh, then then then the king has kind

560
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: of passed the test. Also, I think if I remember correctly,

561
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,479
Speaker 1: and I do, I do not watch uh any of

562
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: these celebrity roasts these days, but I remember correctly, the

563
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: format usually involves the subject at the very end getting

564
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: to throw out a few jabs at the participants as well,

565
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: so they kind of get the last laugh, even though

566
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: they take most of the punishment. You know, now that

567
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: we're talking about it, I can actually think that specifically,

568
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: the stuff I've seen that seemed really over the line,

569
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: mean to me, at at celebrity roast was not directed

570
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: at the main roast Steve, was directed at other people

571
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: in attendance. Yes, like other roasters and celebrity participants that

572
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: were involved. Yes, that's often the stuff that that seems

573
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: like just like way over the line, because it's like

574
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: they're not the sanction target. This is about this is

575
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:05,239
Speaker 1: about an keep the attention on Shatner. I'm tuning in

576
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: to watch him be made the fool, the one that

577
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: the ones that I've seen that have been really I

578
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: felt not cool, or when they like go after the

579
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: roast ease spouse or or partner or something you know

580
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: that happens. Yeah, again, like they're not the target. Like

581
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: I want to, I want to see the target just

582
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: absolutely skewered, like you have. You have just almost free

583
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: range in terms of this individual. But I don't know

584
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: about these other targets. I guess I don't make the

585
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: roast rules, and neither do you. Okay. This one comes

586
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: to us from our listener, Dean, and he introduces himself.

587
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: He says he's an associate lecture in psychology and postdoctoral

588
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: research fellow based in Ireland. And uh, Dean says, quote,

589
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: my research focus is broadly psychology and education, but I

590
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: do have that techy twist of how technology influences human behavior. Uh.

591
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: I teach numerous programs focusing on this. I love the

592
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: podcast and actively encourage my students to listen to it. Oh,

593
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, Dean. Dean writes, I finished listening

594
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: to the on Teasing episode yesterday and couldn't agree more

595
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: about how teasing quickly turns to bullying. My PhD supervisor

596
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: is a powerhouse regarding this field, especially alterophobic bullying, and

597
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: I didn't know what that was, so I looked it up.

598
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: But that's like bullying people based on like subcultures or

599
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: alternative lifestyles. Uh. Perhaps a study could be done on

600
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: a species of squirrels here. My own PhD was looking

601
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: at interpersonal interactions between students and teachers and the role

602
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: positive educational experiences can play in academic and social outcomes.

603
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: I'm often asked questions in class about quote wind is

604
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: teasing end and bullying start, especially between students and also

605
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: between staff, and I often reply by saying how it's

606
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: next to impossible to fully know, not only because interactions

607
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: between individuals are incredibly subjective, and it would also depend

608
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: on multiple contextual factors and how the teased or t

609
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: easier processes the situation. Anyway, like most episodes, this one

610
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: got me thinking of technological applications and social cues in

611
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: the digital space. Well, you mentioned the yellow smiley faces

612
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: and how emoticon slash emoji support comprehension. How do you

613
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: feel the concept of disinhibition and the bystander effect would

614
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: play out in a physical situation and then in a

615
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: digital situation they might seem polar opposites in some cases,

616
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: but then again maybe not. Thoughts from the Hive mind

617
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: once again, love the show. I need to get my

618
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: hands on some merch and flag it to my students.

619
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: All the best Dean, Oh, yeah, that merch. It's a

620
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: great time for us to plug the merch store. If

621
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: you got to stuff to blow your mind. Dot com

622
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: at the top of the page, you'll see a tab

623
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: for store. You can go there. You can get shirts

624
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: with our our cool new logo logo on it. You

625
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: can get what bags for your laptop. You can get

626
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: two framed art. You can get pillows, stickers to put

627
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: on your car, you name it. Listen to the soulis

628
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: ad Man. No. I appreciate Roberts saying that, so I

629
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: don't have to. Yeah, please merch up some cool stuff.

630
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: And it's a great way to support the show if

631
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: you want to, you know, you want to throw a

632
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: few bucks to the show. Okay, but back to Dean's message,

633
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: so Dean asked. I assumed Dean here is talking about

634
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: how we talked about in the episode, this idea of

635
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: you've been there watching teasing turn to bullying, like you've

636
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: seen it happen, and you didn't do anything because you

637
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: didn't know, like should I intervene or would I be

638
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: making it weird if I did? Is this actually okay?

639
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: And I misreading? Like you never really know. It's it's

640
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: hard to know when to step in and sort of

641
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: like become the social police, right because you don't want

642
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: to feel like you're a kindergarten teacher when you're hanging

643
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: out with your friends, Like, don't say that that's me.

644
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 1: That's mean to Sam, Kyle, say you're sorry to Sam. Okay,

645
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: now you too, hug All right, now we can go

646
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: back to talking about molodies. And maybe maybe you're misreading.

647
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: Maybe Sam is not actually being bothered, and by stepping in,

648
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: you were making everybody feel bad. I mean, there's this

649
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: bystander effect going on. You don't know when it's your

650
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: turn to act, when you should do something. And so

651
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: Dean is asking about the disinhibition and the bystander effect

652
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: and how that varies across physical space versus digital space.

653
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 1: What do you think about that, Robert, mm hmm, Well,

654
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: I mean in digital space, it's it's kind of complicated

655
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: because there's I mean, undoubtedly there's so much there's so

656
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: much bad stuff going on out there at any given moment.

657
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: Like I'm sure I could go on to say Reddit,

658
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: and I don't mean to single Reddit out, but I'm

659
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure I could go on to Reddit right now

660
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: and find somebody being, um, you know, somewhat bullying towards

661
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: another person. I mean, sometimes you don't have much to

662
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: work with, right because you're just responding to somebody's comments.

663
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: It's one stranger, uh responding to another stranger. Or you

664
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: see similar things play out on on Facebook or Twitter, right,

665
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: especially on Facebook where it's someone has their their their

666
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: their privacy UM settings very open and it's maybe arguments

667
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: between one like a friend's friends or a friends relatives

668
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: than you UM. And I mean you see it going on,

669
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: and it just it doesn't necessarily feel like your place

670
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: to step in, Like I don't know who these people are.

671
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: I'm not the one to come in. This is clearly,

672
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: clearly somebody knows these people because it's on their Facebook profile.

673
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: They should be the ones to step in and start

674
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: breaking it up. Right. Well, I would say some of

675
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: the same inhibitions or at play in digital space like

676
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: you're talking about. But I think I've observed, I mean,

677
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: maybe you'll disagree. I feel like I've observed people are

678
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: more likely to step in and play social police in

679
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: digital space than they are in physical space. I mean,

680
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: have you not like I see people like like stepping

681
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: in and and saying like, okay, it's time to intervene

682
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 1: in in comment threads on Facebook way way more often

683
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: than I see that happening in person. I never see anything.

684
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: People are more likely to be a jerk quad uh

685
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: digitally than they ask a person as well. Uh, yeah,

686
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: I guess you're guess you're right. I mean, I'm having

687
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: trouble thinking the last time I saw somebody being a

688
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: jerk in person and saw somebody intervene, or saw a

689
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: situation where even I was wondering if someone should intervene.

690
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: It's been a while, I haven't It's been a one

691
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: since I've taken like public transit for instance. Yeah, well, yeah,

692
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I I feel like these situations used to

693
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: happen more back when I was in school, and stuff

694
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: happens less often as an adult. I just don't see

695
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: adults bullying each other that often. Well. The other aspect

696
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: of it, too is that in physical space, I mean

697
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: I do on the internet. Well well, well, I guess

698
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: one of the aspects of both scenarios is that in

699
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: a physical environment, there is always the possibility, even if

700
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: it is even if it is distant, it's still possible

701
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 1: that it could escalate into into a physical altercation, into

702
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: physical violence. And in a digital scenario, I mean it, certainly,

703
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: digital arguments can still have real world consequences. Um they're

704
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: not completely removed from it, but it is. It's not

705
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 1: an immediate step, like like if if it's stranger Kyle

706
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: and stranger Andrew or engage in an argument, uh, you know,

707
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: one's gonna have to find out where the other one lives,

708
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: or they're gonna have to agree to meet up in

709
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: a parking lot and fight. Like there are more steps

710
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: where it's just two people arguing at a bar or

711
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: on a street, uh, you know, on the sidewalk, Then

712
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: they could conceivably come to blows without too much planning involved.

713
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: So you think the threat of a punch in the

714
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 1: face may actually be a positive influence on our social interactions.

715
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: There are some that would argue that, right, Yeah, well,

716
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: I mean another another factor there, though, is that you

717
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: just aren't that often getting into conversations that are covering

718
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: any kind of potentially sensitive or controversial subject matter with

719
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:56,399
Speaker 1: people you don't know very well in physical space. That

720
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: kind of thing happens all the time in digital space

721
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: and almost never happens in physical space. When do you

722
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: argue politics with a stranger in person, it just doesn't happen.

723
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: And then when it does, I mean, the cases that

724
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: come to mind are going to be uh, certainly cases

725
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: of say protest and that is it's a huge stretch

726
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: to call the back and forth it's happening there a conversation.

727
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: It's probably more one side shouting at the other. Right,

728
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: But you see that kind of thing happening on the

729
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: internet all the time. And then so of course there's

730
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,800
Speaker 1: there's plenty of incentive there to just like just show

731
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: want and cruelty and to turn it straight over into

732
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 1: personal insults and bullying and all that. Well, some great

733
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: food for thought here from Dean. We're gonna take one

734
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: more break and we come back. Will crack open a

735
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: few more listener mails before we close out this episode.

736
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: Thank thank Alright, we're back, and I can see that

737
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: our two robots here are very excited because the next

738
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: few listener mails are going to listen to I have

739
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: to do with our two thousand and one Space Odyssey episode. Okay,

740
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: this one comes from listener Eric. Eric writes, greeting stuff

741
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: to blow your mind. Your recent episode two thousand one

742
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: of Space Odyssey made me think you might find the

743
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: following interesting. I was as far as my research yields,

744
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: and I could be wrong. One of the last people

745
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: to conduct a long form interview with Arthur C. Clark.

746
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,439
Speaker 1: He gave a few long form interviews in the last

747
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 1: five years of his life due to post polio fatigue syndromes, scandal,

748
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 1: his pending knighthood, and general failing health. Conducted while visiting

749
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: my then girlfriend in Colombo, Sri Lanka, in the summer

750
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: of nineteen Clark's sole interview condition was that I couldn't

751
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: sell the interview to a national magazine, but he would

752
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: allow it to be published in my college's literary magazine.

753
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: Online publishing didn't effectively exist at the time, of course.

754
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: Uh And then he says, he did publish it in

755
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: the college literary magazine. Uh. So picking up, he says,

756
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: Clark sat behind his desk all the while a top

757
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: which were two cutting edge Macintosh computers and abacus, various

758
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: and sundry papers, and a moon rock. And behind his

759
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 1: desk stood an eight by twenty foot wall of books,

760
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: one half of which consisted of his novels in translation

761
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: and most of which were hard backs. A regal environment there.

762
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: Uh I spent about two and a half hours with

763
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: Dr Clark, as his staff invariably called him, and our

764
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 1: meeting ended with he my girlfriend Pepsi, which is Clark's

765
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: one eyed Chihuahua, and I watching eight millimeter home movies

766
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 1: of Clark and Isaac Asimov playing chess. This was done

767
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: in total silence and was admittedly odd, But my reason

768
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: for writing is to say that many of your listeners

769
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 1: might be interested in knowing what Clark thought his magnum

770
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: opus was in science fiction. About an hour into our meeting,

771
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: I asked him what novel he felt made the greatest

772
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: mark on science fiction. I expected Clark to name two

773
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: thousand one, in spite of its interesting creation, in tandem

774
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 1: with the screenplay for the film, which you mentioned as

775
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: his most horton novel, given that it canonized him as

776
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: a science fiction master and made him decidedly world famous. However,

777
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: when I asked him, he said that his most important

778
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: novel was The Songs of Distant Earth, a brand new

779
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: copy of which was then in my backpack unread. It

780
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: was the only Clark novel I could find at a

781
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: local store. All other Clark books were about scuba diving.

782
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: I asked him to sign it. He laughed and said

783
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: I was being quote cheeky, and accused me of a setup.

784
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 1: He also showed me specs of a space elevator cable

785
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: and told me two math jokes I didn't understand. In

786
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: any case, it was a great episode. I thank you

787
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 1: for it and for conjuring up some wonderful memories. Thanks

788
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: gents for all you do. What you do makes the

789
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: world less stupid and more interesting. Yours, Eric, Oh, thank

790
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: you Eric. Yeah. And plus, that was a fascinating story.

791
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 1: I really really just a delightful little story about meeting

792
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: uh the author there, watch me play chess. That's that

793
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: that has the ring of truth. I don't know. I

794
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: don't know Eric, so I don't know if he's on

795
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 1: the truth, but I believe him based on that detail.

796
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: All right, here's another bit of two thousand and one, Uh,

797
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: listener mail. This one comes to us from Chandler. This

798
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 1: is this is our coworker Chandler. Is it? Oh? Yes?

799
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,919
Speaker 1: Oh well the way I know exactly who it's from.

800
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: Then he says, quote, I listened to your two thousand

801
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: and one episode the other day and thought it was fantastic.

802
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 1: There's one thing I wanted to ask you that perhaps

803
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: you didn't have time to cover in your opinion. Did

804
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: how make a mistake? Was he actually malfunctioning. When Dave

805
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: brought back the satellite unit and found nothing wrong with it,

806
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: How's next suggestion was to put it back, let it fail,

807
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: then find the source of the problem afterwards. This seems

808
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: like a logical solution, but Dave and Frank planned to

809
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 1: shut him down before we ever got to find out

810
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: if How had actually made a mistake or not. And

811
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: since How was given a secret directive to contact the

812
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 1: monolith with or without the crew, he felt he needed

813
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: to remove the humans from the mission. Or did the

814
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: secret directive itself make How malfunction in that the conflicting

815
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: goals of taking care of the crew and not letting

816
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: the crew get in the way of his journey to

817
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: the monolith? Did he create an almost a programming paradox

818
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: that made his brain short circuit. I'm curious to hear

819
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: your thoughts, Cheers Chandler. This is an interesting question because

820
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: it's sort of like asks if do we need to

821
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: put the responsibility back on the humans for what went

822
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: wrong in their interactions with How um So obviously the

823
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: way most people would read that as well, How starts malfunctioning.

824
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: There's something wrong with his logic, and this leads the

825
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: like Bowman and Pool to have no choice but to say,

826
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: we've got to shut him down, and then How reacts

827
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: negatively to that and everything spirals out of control. What

828
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: I think Chandler is asking, what if How was not malfunctioning?

829
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: How was doing just fine? But Bowman and Pool misread

830
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: the situation. They go on the offensive against How and

831
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: he just has to defend himself. Yeah, Frank and Dave,

832
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 1: they are kind of like, uh, you know, automatons. Once

833
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: they decide to act, they can't be stopped. I mean,

834
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: remind me of this concept in a way of the uh,

835
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 1: the the hunter Killer aies the idea that you could have.

836
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: You could have a specialized AI who's who in Their

837
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 1: primary goal is to take down a general AI should

838
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: it emerge or or you know, emerge from it's the

839
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: confines of its digital prison, and their only purpose is

840
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: to just take out that superior AI intelligence. In fact,

841
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: I can well imagine a scenario where that the first

842
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: AI Hunter Killers are called David Frank for that purpose. Bowman. Yeah,

843
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: I never thought about this before, but Bowman in many

844
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: ways behaves like a terminator. Yeah, He's kind of like

845
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: Arnold Schwarzenegger in the first Terminator movie or or even

846
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: more so kind of like uh Robert Patrick and Terminator too.

847
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: He doesn't have much of a discernible personality and is

848
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: just very singly focused on achieving goals. One of those

849
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: major goals of Worse becomes shutting down How. While how

850
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: begs for mercy, he can't be stopped. He can't be

851
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: reasoned with. And that's what Hal tries to do. He

852
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,959
Speaker 1: essentially tries to reason with him. Um and uh, yeah,

853
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: imagine a future in which uh post singularity of course. Uh,

854
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: the the machines when they dress up for Halloween, they

855
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: dress up as Bowman, like he's the new icon of terror.

856
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,959
Speaker 1: That's a good idea. Costume stores get on that starts

857
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: selling the suit. Another thing that Chandler's question brings up,

858
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: which I think is interesting, is the idea of, um,

859
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, like, whether whether a secret inherently sort of

860
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: pollutes the nature of of a functional AI from from

861
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: doing well right. You know. This is I think present

862
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: definitely present in the novel somewhat in the movie. The

863
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: idea that having a secret secondary objective that must be

864
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: kept secret from the human operators is sort of a

865
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: a dangerous proposition to start with for an AI, right,

866
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: because if like an AI has a thing it must

867
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: do and the human operators can't know about that thing

868
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 1: it must do, then they could interfere with its mission

869
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: without knowing they're interfering with its mission, and thus it

870
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: could come into conflict with them in a way that

871
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: it can't even tell them how not to be in

872
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 1: its way. And maybe it's also a leap in cognition

873
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: too far for an artificial intelligence, right, because it's one

874
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: thing for it to be able to have this this

875
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: you know, robust relationship with the crew, you know, playing

876
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: chess with them, engaging in small talk qu while also

877
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 1: looking after their every need. But then you add on

878
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: top of that this necessity for deception. I think teaching

879
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: computers how to lie is a bad idea. Is that

880
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: the secret to preventing the AI from going wrong just

881
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: to have a have a like as a prime directive

882
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: more so than anything else, that a computer can never

883
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: lie to the user. I mean, it does remind me

884
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: of some of some of the ideas that have been

885
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: that have been brought up um uh, specifically some of

886
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 1: the ideas that presented by max Tech Mark and his

887
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: his book Life three point oh about the idea that

888
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: we need to make sure that that the that the

889
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 1: the AI that we're developing, that these that their goal

890
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: is to benefit humanity, that that that is just like

891
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: part of their you know, essentially part part of their

892
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 1: their their core programming, their backbone, their DNA is that

893
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: they exist to help us and to make a better

894
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 1: world and not to uh to fulfill some of these

895
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: smaller goals these uh um, the these finite games that

896
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: are being played between nations and companies. That's a great point.

897
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: And and to those of you who are saying, well, yeah, obviously,

898
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: I mean that just sounds like an obvious thing that

899
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: it should be made to benefit humanity, That's actually not obvious.

900
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: It's not obvious to people who are working artificial intelligence.

901
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: You know, you might be working on a chat bot

902
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: program that there's no reason you have to fear this

903
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: chatbot program you're working on is gonna harm anyone, But

904
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: you're not telling it that it has to benefit humanity.

905
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: I mean, that's not part of your research program. At

906
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: some point we need to think about that being a

907
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: core part of any AI research is the benefit of

908
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: humanity being part of what it does being sort of

909
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: the Asimov's Rules of robotics that underlies everything it does. Right, Otherwise,

910
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: you're gonna be just going about your business one day

911
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: and a robot's gonna snip your life hose and then

912
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: you're done. Now, we already mentioned an email from our

913
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: listener Jim. Today. Jim also wrote us about two thousand one,

914
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: and we're not going to read a whole other email

915
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 1: from him, but just to mention a couple of interesting

916
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: points he made in his email about two thousand one

917
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: of Space Odyssey. He mentions that the quote bone to

918
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: satellite cut in the movie. So that's when moon Gazer

919
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: throws the bone up in the air and then it

920
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: cuts it to become a satellite in orbit. Um uh.

921
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: Jim says that it had a bit more context than

922
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: what's obvious. When Ciskel and Ebert talked about two thousand one,

923
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: one of them made mention that the satellite is a

924
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: space missile form pointing back down to Earth. It represents

925
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: more than just several million years of man's progress. It's

926
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: several million years in man's progress to kill one another.

927
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: Since the bone was also of course used as a weapon,

928
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: that's a good point. Um. Then also one more point

929
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: that that Jim makes quote as for the star Child

930
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: at the end, I read the book years ago in school.

931
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: I'm going on memory alone since I don't have a copy,

932
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: but I recalled that the final lines or something like

933
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: Bowman looked down at the Earth. He didn't know what

934
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: he was going to do with it, but he was

935
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: sure he would think of something. I have looked at

936
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: the end of the book, and Jim, you're very close.

937
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: That is almost exactly what it says at the very end.

938
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 1: So Bowman as the star Child as sort of having

939
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: ascended to this strange godlike form by with by way

940
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: of you know, alien transmutation. Uh, he shows up, trains modified,

941
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: he's a star child. He's in orbit and he looks

942
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: down and he's going to do something with Earth. And

943
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: that's that's a lot of ambiguity, the same kind of

944
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: ambiguity we get at the end of the movie, Like

945
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: does he of nefarious intentions? Good intentions? Is you want

946
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: to help Earth? Does he want to destroy it? As

947
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: you say here? Is he a destroyer? How how much

948
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: difference is there between the two. All right, we have

949
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: one last listener, Mail here and uh, I know which

950
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: one you're gonna Yes, it's the Highlander one. This one

951
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: comes to us from Elizabeth Dear stuff to blow your mind.

952
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: Hosts and team, thank you very much for your show.

953
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: It is a joy to hear about unsettling Boltzmann brains

954
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: and bloodthirsty scugs while walking my dog here in Paris.

955
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: I've been listening to and enjoying your show for a

956
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: few months now, and I noticed many references to Highlander,

957
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: the movie earlier this summer. You mused about Highlander style immortality.

958
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: Immortality is a form of immutability. In the movie, Connor

959
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: McCloud and the other immortals are trapped in time, unable

960
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: to evolve their immortal therefore outside life very interesting. Do

961
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 1: you know that there also was a Highlander TV show? Uh? Yes,

962
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: I am aware. I have. I have to say I

963
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: did much. I watched a fair amount of it, but

964
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: I didn't watch it like religiously, so I was never

965
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: like really privy to the overarching narratives that were going

966
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: on there. I would just like tune in and occasionally

967
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: there'd be a fun episode in which, you know, they

968
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: kind of go through the typical um motions of the

969
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 1: show where McLeod encounters a Highlander from the past, there's

970
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 1: a there's a flashback as to how they know each other,

971
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: and then there's a big standoff and and uh and

972
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: so forth. Now I have to sadly assume that Chris

973
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 1: stuff Lambert is not in the TV show. I believe

974
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: he's in the first episode at least. And the thing is,

975
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: I never actually saw the first episode, but I believe,

976
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: based on subsequent research, that he did show up in

977
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 1: the pilot to set up their relationship. Anyway, she says,

978
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: do you know that there was also a Highlander TV

979
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 1: show where a major development arc was actually about the

980
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: the possibility slash impossibility of change for immortals? And this

981
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: I did not realize, She says, quote the air the

982
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: show aired in the late nineties in France. Don't know

983
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 1: about the US. Uh it did? Uh this I think

984
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: it aired exclusively in syndication. So this was the kind

985
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: of thing that I would watch like uh. I think

986
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,240
Speaker 1: it would come on like like four in the afternoon

987
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: on a Saturday, or come out on at like ten

988
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: at night on some random channel. She continues, It's protagonist

989
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 1: Duncan McCloud Connor's better looking and younger cousin started office

990
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: this archetypical immortal boy scout hero set in Stone and

991
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 1: settling scores with batties that were as stuck in the

992
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: past as he was. However, the show couldn't follow this pattern,

993
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 1: and definitely since we the viewers, are of course, children

994
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 1: of time, so it became all about how Duncan needed

995
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: to change and break his black and white vision of

996
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: the world. It was hard for him and he didn't

997
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 1: like it, uh was forced to have He was forced

998
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 1: to evolve by interesting side characters. In the end, after

999
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: a few seasons, he got there only to become this

1000
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: faded out version of himself, almost losing the will to

1001
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: live and fight another day. Having lost his trademark identity,

1002
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: he resolved to leave the game, and thus the show ended.

1003
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: Sorry for the long message, but I really enjoyed hearing

1004
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: about your thoughts on identity and immortality and am delighted

1005
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: about the ongoing challenge of watching the Highlander movie a

1006
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 1: few minutes at a time. I couldn't resist telling you

1007
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 1: about the TV show in case you didn't know about it. Again,

1008
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: merceies for your show, best, Elizabeth Well, I didn't think

1009
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: I'd ever be tempted to go back and watch the

1010
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: Highlander TV series. Now I am a little bit. This

1011
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: gives me renewed respect for it. I mean, I I

1012
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 1: know loosely that they do end up adding a lot

1013
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: of elements later on, Like there's this whole thing with

1014
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 1: the Watchers, who I think are just mortals who watched

1015
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: the Immortals um like this. You know, they it went

1016
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: multiple seasons, so they had to add more elements. I

1017
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 1: had to have like Highlander administrators. Yeah, you couldn't just

1018
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 1: have follow the Kurgan of the Weak model. And definitely

1019
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 1: though that hasn't stopped the movie series post Highlander two,

1020
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: because I think that's basically what they've done. How many

1021
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: movies are there after Highlander too, something like three or

1022
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: four only saw up to three. Those of you out

1023
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 1: there who think we've forgotten that we've promised on the

1024
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: show before to one day do a Highlander to the

1025
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:11,959
Speaker 1: quickening science of episode, we have not forgotten. That will happen.

1026
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,280
Speaker 1: In that's nature. It is a guarantee. In fact, I

1027
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: finally finished watching the first Highlander like three minutes at

1028
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 1: a time, so that one's done, I'm ready to to

1029
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: rewatch Highlander two and its original theatrical glory. Uh, and

1030
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,439
Speaker 1: then we'll we'll pick it up from there. Highlander two

1031
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: remains one of the best bad movies of all time.

1032
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: It is bad movie sorcery. It is transcendent. Your soul

1033
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 1: will leave your body and flash around the room and

1034
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,439
Speaker 1: uh and bolts of lightning. Yeah, all right, we'll look

1035
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 1: to that. I think at this rate, it's probably gonna

1036
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 1: be November before we get that out, because we've got

1037
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: our our Halloween content. But I'm hopeful for November. Let's

1038
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: let's make a date. It's got to happen, all right.

1039
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 1: So I think we're gonna leave it off there. The

1040
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: robots are tired. I think they want to embrace each

1041
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 1: other and swap the parts around, so that now we'll

1042
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 1: have just to uh. We'll have two new new slash

1043
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 1: old carney, the mailbox running around, both of them made

1044
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: out of a combination of new and old parts. Uh.

1045
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: And then they'll probably ask for replacements, request more parts.

1046
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 1: This is just gonna get out of control. We're gonna

1047
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: have three carneys, so we're gonna have four carnis Us.

1048
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: We'll pick that up another day in the meantime, if

1049
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us, you want

1050
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: to find out more about what we do, you want

1051
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 1: to listen to more episodes of the podcast, head on

1052
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That

1053
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: is the mothership. That'she. We'll find all the episodes. You'll

1054
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: find links out to our social media accounts. You'll find

1055
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 1: that tab for the store. Uh yeah, it's a great place.

1056
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 1: Go check it out. Huge Things. As always to our

1057
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: wonderful audio producers Alex Williams and Terry Harrison. If you

1058
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us directly to

1059
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 1: let us know feedback on this episode or any other,

1060
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: to send us a listener mail of your own, uh,

1061
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, just to say hi.

1062
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: You can email us at blow the Mind at how

1063
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

1064
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: The Big Man