1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro, and this is family Secrets. The secrets that 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. In my family, 5 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: the number six million had been ubiquitous. Grandma would use 6 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: it as a non sequitur when my father was growing 7 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: up and claimed to be bored. Grandma would say, bored. 8 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: When I was your age, we had no food. Your 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: family is dead, six million Jews dead, and your board. 10 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: When I refused the fourth bowl of chicken soup, she 11 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: pulled out the number as well. Six million Jews die 12 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: in the Holocaust, and you're not hungry? Six million was 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: printed on a poster that hung on their living room wall, 14 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: greeting guests with that integer twisted up in a barbed 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: wire star of David. That's Noah Letterman. As a journalist, 16 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: Noah has written about travel, sports, even beer, but his 17 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: deepest exploration is a memoir A world erased a grandson's 18 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: search for his family's Holocaust secrets. I grew up in 19 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: a town on Long Island, pretty Jewish town, and my 20 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 1: grandparents lived in Brighton Beach, New York. Probably moved there 21 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: from like Canarsi, which is also in Brooklyn, maybe when 22 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: they were when I was eight years old or something 23 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: like that. And you know, between Brighton Beach in Brooklyn 24 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: and Great Neck, New York, I really sort of lived 25 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: in these two very Jewish worlds, and they were quite different. 26 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: I mean, Long Island was, you know, a nice suburban area, 27 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: and Brighton Beach was a little more like beach town 28 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: if you could picture it in Brooklyn, so uh it was. 29 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: It was filled with all of these survivors um and 30 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: Jews from the Old Country, as well as you know, 31 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: various other populations, and it really just sort of always 32 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: felt like I was moving between these two very different worlds. 33 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: And whenever I was in Brighton Beach, I was always 34 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: curious about all of these men and women who had 35 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: had these numbers, you know, these these tattoos, uh scrawled 36 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: on their arms. Most of my friends, all of their 37 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: grandparents were born in America, where I had these two 38 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: grandparents who had come from Europe, came with nothing and 39 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: really had all of their murdered family members is hanging 40 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: on the bedroom wall. So to visit with my grandparents 41 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: and to see these numbers and to see these people 42 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: who I had never known but should have been, you know, 43 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: my great uncles and my great grandparents and cousins however removed. Um, 44 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: it just left me with all of these questions. And 45 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: so you know, when when a kid, I think, is 46 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: denied stories and answers, it just makes them more curious. 47 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: And I was always sort of like interested in in 48 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: my family's history on those on those trips to Brighton Beach. 49 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: How old do you remember being when you first actually 50 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: noticed the numbers? You know, I think growing up the 51 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: numbers always just seemed like they belong there, and I 52 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: think it was like it was more striking to me 53 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: when people didn't have the numbers on their arm when 54 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: I was really young. That's how I remember it. And 55 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: then obviously I got to a point where, you know, 56 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: I realized though there there there are a lot of 57 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: people of my grandparents generation who don't have these numbers, 58 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: and it obviously means something very different and and it's 59 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: very unique in a in a very terrible sort of way. UM. 60 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: So I think I was always aware of the numbers, 61 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: just the meaning of these digits on their arms changed 62 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: for me. Describe your grandmother for me, Um, so she 63 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: was this very stubborn, domineering and loving person. You know, 64 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: she grew up in a time where she starved every day, 65 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: and she made it her business, um to feed every 66 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: single member of her family. Um. You know, there's even 67 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: a story of her inviting a cab driver who dropped 68 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: her off because the guy was hungry. So she felt 69 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: it her duty to feed this this guy I And 70 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, she took feeding to the extremes. So she 71 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: never sat down at the table to join us for 72 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: a meal. Um, but she always stood over us and 73 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: hounded us to eat, eat, eat, And these were the 74 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: commands that she always gave. And you know, through food, 75 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: she controlled us, and through food she showed us her love. 76 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: And she was just this like sweet woman if she 77 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: loved you, and she could be, you know, quite the 78 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: opposite if she didn't. But for every single member in 79 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: the small family that she and my grandfather created in America, 80 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, she loved us all and and she and 81 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: we could do no wrong in her eyes. So um, yeah, 82 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: that's that's that's sort of her in a nutshell. That's great. 83 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: And and how about your grandfather? Describe your grandfather? My 84 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: grandfather was also loving I called him Poppy um, and 85 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: you know, he and I would just spend our days 86 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: whenever I would come over to visit playing cards. Um. 87 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: He'd always sort of let me win in the beginning 88 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: and then you know, show me that that he still 89 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, controlled the game at the end. And then 90 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: if we weren't playing cards, we were watching wrestling on television. 91 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: And you know, he and my grandmother had this very 92 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: um interesting relationship where they just you know, went at 93 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: each other all the time. But you know, he always 94 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: sort of let her win. But then he would look 95 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: over at me, give me a little wink and a 96 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: nod that, uh, let me know that he somehow, in 97 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: his own way had had the upper hand at things. 98 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: But he let her think that she was winning the fight. 99 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: And I guess she probably also thought she was winning 100 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: the fight. But you know, they I think they loved 101 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: each other very much, but I never saw it expressed 102 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: when when I was there. It was just them going 103 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: at it all the time. But you know, towards the 104 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: end of every fighting, guess today I shouldn't say and 105 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: see expressed, because at the end of her sight she 106 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: would always go over and say, you know, oh, my 107 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: husband and give him a little loving pinch or a meal. 108 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: In your book, pretty early in your book, you described 109 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: as a kid knowing that your grandparents had kept their 110 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: stories secret. I think that was the line, actually, you know, 111 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: And am I correct? And remembering that you would, you know, 112 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: sort of snoop around, kind of looking for what they 113 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: didn't want to talk about. Yeah, So as a kid, 114 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: they kept all the stories from me, um and and 115 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: the main reason for that was what I would learn 116 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: later on is basically they told their children. So my 117 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: father and my aunts everything about what they had been through. 118 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: And this traumatized my father and and and it traumatized 119 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: my aunt. They have this like one shared nightmare um 120 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: of hearing goose stepping, seeing this fog all around them, 121 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: and feeling like they couldn't move. And when they told 122 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: my grandmother about it, she realized that disconnected to the 123 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: time where she was thrown from a barn uh loft 124 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: and she couldn't move, and right after that, her mother 125 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:29,119 Speaker 1: was murdered while they were holding hands. Just think about 126 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: a nightmare so vivid and powerful, so connected to traumatic 127 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: family history that a brother and a sister actually dreamed 128 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: the same recurring dream being the children of Holocaust survivors. 129 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: The second generation informs so much of the inner world 130 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: of Noah's father and aunt. My father actually slept with 131 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: this suitcase pack beneath his bed because he sort of believed, 132 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: not like, would the knockis come to Brooklyn, New York. 133 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: He was pretty certain of that, But you know, will 134 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: I be ready to run when they do arrive? Um? 135 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: So you know, to have that sort of ingrained in 136 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: your in your being when you live in a relatively 137 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: safe place, UM, is pretty troubling. And my aunt, you know, 138 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: I think partly because of the stories and maybe also 139 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: to sort of challenge my grandmother's you know rain. Um. 140 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: She she had all these eating disorders because it was 141 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: sort of like the one thing that she could control, 142 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: like not to eat her food that her mother forced 143 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: onto her plate and and sort of monitored that that 144 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: that this would go down her throat. As far as 145 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, who they were as adults and how these 146 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: stories affected them, um, you know, my my aunt was 147 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: always seemed much more fragile than my father, and my 148 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: father had a very you know, he had a great 149 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: sense of humor, and I think it was his way 150 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: of sort of deflecting and when I started writing this book, 151 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: and I would go to my aunt and father and 152 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: ask all sorts of questions. Everything was buried, nothing was remembered. 153 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break here. Noah grows up in 154 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: suburban Great Neck, but always in the shadow of what 155 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: had transpired two generations before him, haunted by the stories 156 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: his grandparents carried and the impact of those stories, he 157 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: begins to internalize it as some kind of responsibility. If 158 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: anyone in the family is going to unpack the history 159 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: of his grandparents and what they went through, it's going 160 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: to be him. Then, when Noah's eighteen, his grandpa dies 161 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: and he's afraid that all of his grandpa's stories will 162 00:10:54,360 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: die with him. I'd always been the grandchild, I think, 163 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: with the most questions when it came time to, uh, 164 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: you know, to sit around at the meals. I was 165 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: always trying to get nearest to my grandfather and and 166 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: ask the questions. But it wasn't until I think my 167 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: grandfather died and I'm standing in the cemetery burying him, um, 168 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: and I'm and I'm sort of looking around, and I'm 169 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: noticing that all of the all of the gravestones have 170 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: the stars of David on the appropriately at the Jewish Cemetery, 171 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: but inside those stars of David, a lot of the 172 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: tombstones had Holocaust survivor Holocaust survivors written within the star. 173 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: And I looked over at my grandfather's casket and then 174 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: out at the cemetery. It really felt like we were 175 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: burying all these stories, you know, all these things that 176 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: I would never learned, or so I felt at the time. 177 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: Then later on that that day and week um, when 178 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: we had the Shiva, all of my grandparents friends started 179 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: to come to the apartment, and you know, these Holocaust survivors, 180 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: they would like shuffle in and sit at the table. 181 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: And for all the years I had known them, they 182 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: always sat there and spoke in this like coated Yiddish. 183 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: And you know, it's probably comfortable for them to speak 184 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: in Yiddish, but also it was convenient for them to 185 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: not have to, you know, have this kid snooping in 186 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: on their conversations and not have the burden of like 187 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: damaging another another young kid in the family. So they 188 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: spoke in Yidish. But at the shiva, and you know, 189 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: at this point, I'm eighteen years old. I think for 190 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: my benefit, they started speaking in English, and they started 191 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: telling all these stories about my grandfather. Noah hears two 192 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: incredible stories during the Shiva as the old Jews sit 193 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: at the table nothing on bagels and lucks in the First, 194 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: his grandfather, who's working on the ship that's taking him 195 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: and Noah's grandma to America, is accosted by a sailor. 196 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 1: My grandfather had a job on the ship, and this 197 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: other sailor came up to him and he was an 198 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: anti Semit and basically just said, it's a shame that 199 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: you should see the end of this war. And then 200 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: my grandfather knocks him out, and you know, to me, 201 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: that was just such like a phenomenal moment because it's 202 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: this little Jew who's standing up to this like six 203 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: ft six anti Semite. And then you know when when 204 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: he's taken to the ship's captain, the ship's captain just 205 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: looks at the giant sailor and the little Jew and 206 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: he laughs. But you know, in my mind, I'm realizing, Wow, 207 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: this is like a really brave and tough man. And 208 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: then that was confirmed for me even more when when 209 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: I learned this story that took place in the Barn 210 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: and the Barn story takes place during the Holocaust, when 211 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: my grandfather is essentially high in this barn with a 212 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: friend and um a Nazi walks in on him and 213 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: he demands my grandfather's boots. My grandfather Poppy, he doesn't wanna, 214 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: He doesn't want to turn over his boots, so instead 215 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: he tells his friend to extinguish the light, and he 216 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: runs this pitchfork through the Nazis throat and he leaves 217 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: him dead there. These stories make Noah hungry for more. 218 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: He worries that now many of them are gone forever. 219 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: His grandma falls into a period of mourning that lasts 220 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: five years. During this time, she cries and whales her 221 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: husband's name repeatedly and essentially waits to die herself. When 222 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: Noah tries to speak with her about the past, she 223 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: responds by saying, boy, it's too much. So when it 224 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: comes to his grandparents stories, he's now in a holding pattern. 225 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: His father won't talk about it, his aunt won't talk 226 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: about it, his grandma won't talk about it. After he 227 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: graduates from cal Noah sets off to travel. He's a surfer, 228 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: a detail I love about him, and he essentially follows 229 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: the waves wherever they take him, this was purely a 230 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: trip to catch waves around the world. You know, so 231 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: I essentially just had a backpack and a surfboard, and 232 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: I was working jobs, uh, saving up the money from 233 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: those jobs, and just you know, buying flights to the 234 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: cheapest place I could go, and you know, trying to 235 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: live off like a few hundred bucks in a month, 236 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: like Central America. And then I had buddies all over 237 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: like New Zealand and Australia where I'd find work there, 238 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: and you know, it was just the sort of break 239 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: away from the life I had known. And one of 240 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: the things that I had always known in life is 241 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: to trust nobody, you know, because I grew up with 242 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: not my grandparents stories, but the the warnings sort of 243 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: implied by their experiences and their and their histories. This 244 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: is this idea that you know, your own neighbors will 245 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: turn on, this idea that you'll never be safe in 246 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: your own home. And I guess that, you know, in 247 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: some way which was never said to me, always kept 248 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: from me, but somehow I understood that. Um, when I 249 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: went off on this trip, I didn't trust people, and 250 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: I think that was sort of like one thing that 251 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: had to change, you know, and and and I think 252 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: overall it mostly did. I don't think you could ever 253 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: change that completely. But you know, I was sharing hospital 254 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: rooms with other random strangers. I was, you know, hitchhiking 255 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: through various Central American bill in cities and throughout Australia, 256 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: and I guess, you know, at a certain point I 257 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: had to put my entire belief system aside and try 258 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: something different to get by it. After a year, Noah's girlfriend, 259 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: who was a year behind him in college, meets up 260 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: with him in Europe. Money's tight and they're getting by 261 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: staying in hostels, cooking their own meals. But at some 262 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: point his girlfriend checks her at M balance and it's zero. 263 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: She probably had been hacked or something. You know. We 264 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: realized that if we wanted to sustain any sort of 265 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 1: global travel, we'd have to go farther east, because at 266 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: the time two thousand four, most of these countries were 267 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: not in the euro Things are really cheap in the 268 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: East as compared to the West. Farther east, inching dangerously 269 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: close to the one country. Noah was never ever going 270 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: to set foot in the place where the atrocities happened 271 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: to his family, Poland. He started in Hungary and Hungary. 272 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: I saw the this new museum that was built and 273 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: it was really the first time in a year I'd 274 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: seen this word. But it appeared on the side of 275 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: the building. It's at Holocaust Museum, huge letters. Well, I 276 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: walked into the museum and we wound up sneaking into this, uh, 277 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: this private tour for these Americans. You know, they invited 278 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: us to join them throughout the museum. And then when 279 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: my girlfriend and I got to the Czech Republic, we 280 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: saw thee Joseph of which is the Jewish quarter in 281 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: the Czech in Prague, and it was preserved because Hitler 282 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: wanted to create this sort of museum to an exterminated people. 283 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: So well, essentially all the synagogue are still there, and 284 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: you know, obviously he failed in his plan to commit 285 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: full extermination, but it saved this little community over this 286 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: little town. And then when I went to a concentration 287 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: camp for the first time, you know, I started to 288 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: have all these questions and feelings and memories of my grandparents, 289 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: sort of like flood back in. Noah doesn't know what 290 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: to do with these feelings and memories, so he reaches 291 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: out to the one person who he thinks will understand 292 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: what he's going through. I sent this email to my father, 293 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: but I also kind of half expected that he would 294 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: just right back, like lea me alone, I don't want 295 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: to talk about it, as he always had when I 296 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: was growing up. But oddly enough, he sends me this 297 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: email with my grandparents addresses in Poland and all the 298 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: camps that they had been in, And I had never 299 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: known this information existed, Like I didn't know he knew 300 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: any of the camps besides Auschwitz and ma Donic because 301 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: they were sort of like household names when I was 302 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: growing up, you know, like when whenever anybody would ask 303 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: my my father, like what his parents had gone through, 304 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, he'd say, house was in my Donic and 305 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,959 Speaker 1: now let's not talk about it anymore. Where had your 306 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: father kept this list? So they kept a list in 307 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: the liquor cabinet. So I think if I was a 308 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: little bit more daring as a as a young man 309 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: and you know, rebellious, I would have had access to 310 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: this information reaching for the vodka and instead of finding 311 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: the list of yeah, or maybe it would have turned 312 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: me off to alcohol. But in any case, I had 313 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: their addresses, and I was one country away from Poland, 314 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: and I thought, wait a minute, like what could be there? 315 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: You know, what could I find out? I can't shy 316 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: away from this now, And so it was really the 317 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: first time I had legitimate information, and so I kind 318 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: of amended my one rule and I went into Poland. 319 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: And that's sort of where all of this became possible. 320 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: We're going to pause for a moment for a word 321 00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: from our sponsor. Increasingly, Noah's explorations make his inner world 322 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: more and more populated by his lost relatives. He had 323 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: always been haunted by a family photograph of his grandma's 324 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: of an enormous clan gathered around the sader table that 325 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: passover thirty of them. There were no memories of these 326 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: people because they they just sort of like haunted us, 327 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: like ghosts, you know, hanging there and this and this 328 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: one family photograph, and you know, whenever I asked about 329 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: who they were as a kid, my grandmother just summed 330 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: it all up with the same word repeated three times 331 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: every time, and it was just dead, dead, and dead, 332 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: because that was everybody's story. Every single person in that 333 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: photograph had been murdered except for my grandmother, and my 334 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: grandfather had no photographs. And he also had no people 335 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: left in his family either, because every single person had 336 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: been murdered um when when his town was liquidated, you know, 337 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: so I didn't even have names to attach to any 338 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: of those people. And I think as I started to 339 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: learn more, you know, and when I learned more, because 340 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: I came back from Poland, my grandmother opened up. I 341 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: went to her apartment in Brighton Beach and remember being 342 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: a nice day. Everybody was sort of like down on 343 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: the beach, enjoying, uh, enjoying the ocean, playing volleyball and 344 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: walking the boardwalk. And then there I am with my grandmother. 345 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: She's crying to the ceiling. Still she's she's got this. 346 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: She had this necklace made of my grandfather where he's 347 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: like laser printed into gold and she wears him around 348 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: her neck like he's a he's a god. And you know, 349 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: she would carry this photograph of him to every room 350 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: in the house wherever she went. So it was it 351 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: was both touching and and and and pathetic. Um. But 352 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: this was like the life that she sort of subjected 353 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: herself too, and it was just full of of self 354 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: inflicted suffering. And you know, to watch that for thirty 355 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: minutes when everybody is enjoying the day outside and these 356 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: two scenes are juxtaposed together. Um, I couldn't take it anymore. 357 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: At ten minutes would go by, and you know, twenty 358 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: minutes would go by, and you'd just be watching the 359 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: second hand on the clock, tick pass, tick pass. And 360 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: then so finally, at the thirty minute mark, I just 361 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: said to my grandmother, you know, I went to Poland. 362 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: And I figured, you know, at first I shouldn't say 363 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: anything like that, because who knew what it would trigger. 364 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: Her eyes lit up, and she she leaned forward and 365 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: she asked me if I went to the Muslim plots, 366 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: and she also had this strange smile on her face. 367 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: And I call it strange because Ompstion plots was the 368 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: place that the Jews were transported from two basically their death. 369 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: Pretty much everybody who went to the Omph Plots would 370 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: die because they wound up in a concentration camp. This 371 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: was not only just like this depot into the concentration camps, 372 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: but it was really, you know, the depot into all 373 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: of my grandparents Holocaust stories. And you know, from then on, 374 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: we just sat at that table and she told me 375 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: her stories what made her open up. And I think 376 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: it's because maybe she realized her time was running out 377 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: and she wanted to tell her stories. Maybe it was 378 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: because she was tired of suffering the way she had 379 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: forced herself to suffer over the death of my grandfather 380 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: um or maybe it was you know, she felt like 381 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: I did what was necessary two understand her as much 382 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: as I possibly could in you know, the year two 383 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: thousand and four. You know, because obviously I'm a Jew 384 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: from New York who is known a pretty you know, 385 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: easy life compared to what my grandparents had gone through, 386 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: so there's no way to get any to get anywhere 387 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: near what they had experienced. But maybe she felt like, 388 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: all right, I saw their house, I saw their street, 389 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: I spoke to the neighbors who probably turned on them. 390 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: So you know, maybe I did what was necessary of 391 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: a grandchild who just willing to take on the burden 392 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: of the stories and and the importance of the memories. 393 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: And how long after that did she pass away? We 394 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: had about six years where where we sat at that table, 395 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: you know, every week, two weeks, three weeks, how you know, 396 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: however long between visits, and we'd sit there for a 397 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: couple of hours or however long she could handle, and 398 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: she would tell me her stories and UM, yeah, so 399 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: six years of that. I mean, what a gift that 400 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: you gave her. Um, you know that she also gave you. 401 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: But I'm imagining that you weren't looking at the second 402 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: half of the clock anymore like that. It was now 403 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: there was, you know, like something broke open and her 404 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: where she was able to to speak about all this 405 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: in a way that was very different from before. It 406 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: was like two thousand and five six and I thought 407 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: to myself, I'm going to write a book because I 408 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: started getting answers to my questions. And I figured, you know, 409 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: when I'm going to write a book about about my 410 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: grandfather because to me, he had always sort of been 411 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: like the hero, right, like the guy who I would 412 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: learn would break out of a cattle car that went 413 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: to Triblinka. Nobody escaped Treblinka, and yet here's this guy 414 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: who escapes the cattle car going to Triblinka. Everyone who 415 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: went to Treblinka died, but not him. Here's this guy 416 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: who runs a pitched fork through some Nazis neck and 417 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: and and lives to tell about it. Here's this guy 418 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: who was part of the Warsaw gheto uprising. He worked 419 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: as a sewer ratte right, one of the guys who 420 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: essentially broke out of the Warsaw Ghetto and traded for 421 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: arms and food so that they could live to fight 422 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: another day. And he was just such a phenomenal person 423 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: and a tough guy. And I guess, being a grandson, 424 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 1: maybe there was something silly in me that, just like 425 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: I was more attracted to his stories than to hers, 426 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: for whatever reason. And so when I sat down with 427 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: my grandmother to ask her questions like, oh, tell me 428 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: about Poppy and the Warsaw Ghetto. Tell me about Poppy 429 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: and Mike Donic a concentration camp. Tell me about Poppy 430 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: and Auschwitz, she just shrugs and said, you know, I 431 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: don't know about Poppy and the war Saw Ghetto. I 432 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: don't know about Poppy here or there. But I could 433 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: tell you about what happened to me there. And that 434 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: was such a powerful moment for me. And to think 435 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: that like my grandfather was, you know, capital s survivor 436 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: and she was just this lady who survived was was 437 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: a ridiculous thing for me to think. And so you know, 438 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: I think she gave me a gift as well, to 439 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: to just open not only to share her stories, but 440 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: to open my eyes to like the reality of things. 441 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: There's one story Noah tells about his grandma now whenever 442 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: anyone wants to know more about her, which sums up 443 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: her courage and her conviction. This one time in the 444 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: war Saw Ghetto, she is um, She's walking down the 445 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: street and there's just bonfire, and she could feel the 446 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: heat before she turned the corner. And when she does 447 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: turn the corner to see the fire and all those 448 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: these books burning, This Nazi says to her, I wanted 449 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: to go up into that building and bring down the books, 450 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: throw down the books. So you know, she complies. She 451 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: goes up into the building and she sees that these 452 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: are books with with her God's name in it. And 453 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, she she looks down at the book burning 454 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: and she says herself, this is not something that she's 455 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: gonna take part in. So instead of throwing the books 456 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: out the window like the Nazi had instructed her to do, 457 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: and as the Nazi was yelling for her to do 458 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: when she looked out, she takes a little string and 459 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: ties up the books and walks downstairs with them, and 460 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: when she gets there, the Nazi points a gun in 461 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: her face because she defied orders, and she just closes 462 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: her eyes and accepts the bullet. And obviously that bullet 463 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: never came. But the books are ripped out of her hands, 464 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: and you know, I guess in her mind she did 465 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: what she had to do to to stand for what 466 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: she believed in and had sort of you know, very 467 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: telling about who she was at the person. The Letterman story, 468 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: like many stories of inherited trauma, is so much about 469 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: the way that the aftermath of trauma shapes our lives 470 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: from one generation to the next. When it's buried, hidden, 471 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: pushed to the side, it festers and creates new difficulties, 472 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: suitcases beneath beds, shared nightmares, eating disorders. But then sometimes 473 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: it passes like a lip torch, into the hands of 474 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: a curious child who has questions he can't let go of, 475 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: and that child grows up to research and report a 476 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: story that restores dignity to the lost and gives his 477 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: grandmother the gift, however painful, of having her own life 478 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: witnessed and scene. I think my father and my aunts 479 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: have a a new found perspective of on on who 480 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: their mother was. You know, I think they they both 481 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: found her to be very difficult. Um. She was difficult, 482 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: but you know, at the same time, she was this 483 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: person who went through such suffering to you know, to 484 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: survive the war and to create a life for generations 485 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: that would follow. Um. So I think. You know, every 486 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: time my father would come home after my grandfather died 487 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: and and he was like cursing her for for driving 488 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: him a crazy, because she did. She she made his 489 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: life miserable. UM, and she said things that were very hurtful. 490 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: He was just able to then like put it all 491 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: on perspective and say, wow, like this is what she 492 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: went through, and I could take a few punches from 493 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: from this lady who gave me life. So I think, um, 494 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: I think that was cathartic for him as well. And 495 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: I think both of them just appreciated having these stories written, 496 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, having them recorded, and having them have a future. 497 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: You know, whether it's a wider audience or whether it's 498 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: just my children when they grow up sitting down and saying, wow, 499 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: were my great grandparents. No one has two young daughters 500 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: who will never know. Those thirty people gathered around the 501 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: Stater table all the branches of their family who were killed. 502 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: How will they metabolize the story of their ancestors, what 503 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: kind of meaning would have for them, and how does 504 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: a family hold such a story generation after generation. I 505 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: think they'll maybe understand what the Jews and more specifically 506 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: our family had gone through. But I'm sure that there's 507 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: also like a mythical quality to reading a book about 508 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: people that you've actually never met. Um So, while you know, 509 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: my grandfather and my and my grandmother were real people 510 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: to me, to them though, you know, I guess they'll 511 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: be sort of legends, and I guess if that's the 512 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: only way to keep them alive from my children and 513 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: still be it. But I think there's also plenty for 514 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: them to understand and to appreciate, as far as like 515 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,959 Speaker 1: what it means to have great grandparents who survived the Holocaust, 516 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: and what it means to have such a small family. 517 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: Even though you know we're a few generations removed from it, 518 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: it's still lingers. Many thanks to my guest Noah Letterman. 519 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: Noah is the author of A World Erased, a Grandson's 520 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: search for his family's Holocaust secrets. You can find him 521 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: at Noah Letterman dot com. Family Secrets is an I 522 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: Heart Media production. Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer, Lowell 523 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: Bolante is the audio engineer, and Julie Douglas is the 524 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: executive producer. If you have a family secret you'd like 525 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: to share, you can get in touch with us at 526 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: listener mail at Family Secrets podcast dot com, and you 527 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: can also find us on Instagram at Danny Ryder, and 528 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: at Facebook at Family Secrets Pod and Twitter at fam 529 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: Secrets Pod. For more about my book Inheritance, visit Danny 530 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: Shapiro dot com. For more podcasts. For my heart Radio, 531 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever 532 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,