1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House top 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristine. Today we are talking about something 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: that a lot of women and some men are dusted 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: with and emphasize and altar and tweak. We're talking about eyelashes, 6 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: the blinky hairs on our faces. What they mean, what 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,319 Speaker 1: we use them for, and how we decorate them with 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: the number one cosmetic in America, which is mascara. Yeah, 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 1: and why eyelashes, long, lustrous eyelashes are considered such a 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: feminine beauty trait. Why are we so obsessed with our eyelashes? 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: Why Why am I so obsessed with my eyelashes? Caroline, 12 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. Why are you? Because they are considered 13 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: I think of feminine beauty trade eight. I mean it's 14 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: the first cosmetic that I really started wearing on the 15 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: regular in high school. And if I wear anything, if 16 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: I could only wear one thing out of my house 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: makeup wise, it would be mascara. Yeah. I don't like to. 18 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: I I forget to put mascara on sometimes, Like I'll 19 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: put everything else on and I'll get to work and 20 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: look at myself in the bathroom mirror and be like, 21 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: why do I look strange? Something is a miss on 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: my face? And then I realized it's because I didn't 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: make my eyelashes look a mile long. They're just like 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: my normal, stumpy lashes. And it's one of those things 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: where it's such a given that women care about their eyelashes. 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: We will use mascara, And it seems like such a 27 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: given that women will pay attention to their eyelashes, they 28 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: will use a lot of mascara. This is something that 29 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: we will care a lot about, and yet rarely do 30 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: we ever stop and ponder, why why about this? You know, 31 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: the strange set of hairs growing out of our eyelids. 32 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: I distinctly remember being an early teen and reading like 33 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: Team magazine or seventeen or whatever, and they had they 34 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: would have like comments from boys being like, boys are 35 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: wondering about this about you, And one of them, one 36 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: of the guys said, I distinctly remember this, said I 37 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: don't understand why girls were all that black gunk around 38 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: their eyes. And I remember thinking like, yeah, you don't 39 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: get it, do you, buddy? But of course I don't 40 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: even know if I knew, like to back that up 41 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: with anything. I just knew like we do because we 42 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: like it. Yeah, and we should and and it makes 43 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: us beautiful and feminine, right right? Uh, Well, first of all, 44 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: why don't we kick off wisdom? Eyelash science just a 45 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: brief primer on why we have these blinky hairs to 46 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: begin with. And they are our eyeball protectors. They keep 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: dust and debris out of our eyes. And they're also 48 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: kind of like our eye whiskers. Yeah, if things get 49 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: too closed, it'll irritate the eyelash and we'll close our 50 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: eyes instinctively. They said a little signal saying, hey, hey, 51 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: something too, something too close to your eye whole. Yeah, 52 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: so it's you going too the eye doctor. When they 53 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: put that thing right up against your eye, that's torture. Yeah. 54 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: Or when they when they blow the air into your eyeball, 55 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: your eyelashes like emergency, stop everything. Follow up podcast on 56 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: Christen and Caroline's horror stories from the Eye Doctor. Right. So, 57 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: I know that when I was younger, my mother always 58 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: berated me, like, don't don't tug your eyelashes, they'll never 59 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: grow back. But that's how you get the eye lash 60 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: hairs that you can blow off to make wishes. I know. Well, 61 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: so it took me like a long time to all 62 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: of a sudden be like, let me think critically about 63 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: what my mother said. But anyway, so, eyelashes developed pretty 64 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: early actually when you are in uteroe sometime between twenty 65 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: two and twenty eight weeks, and as a person outside 66 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: of the uterus, they are continuously shedding and growing. So 67 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: my mother was so wrong that that thing that she 68 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: told me was wrong that they won't go back. Did 69 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: she also tell you in the same sentence that if 70 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: you cross your eyes, they'll get stuck. I don't. I'm 71 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: sure she did. I'm sure she like said it and 72 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: then was horrified and thought about how like, oh I 73 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: thought I would never say that, but I'm turning into 74 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: my mother. Um. They actually grow for three months before 75 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: they fall out, so that's I think that's a lot 76 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: shorter period than your head hair. Uh. And they can 77 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: take seven eight weeks to grow back if you pull 78 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: them out of your face. So I mean your mom 79 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: was then kind of onto something. Yeah, they all grow back, 80 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: but just slowly. Right. Did you ever know anyone who 81 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: cut their eyelashes off a kid? I feel like I 82 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: I know someone or maybe it was my mom telling 83 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 1: me some horror story about why I shouldn't use scissors. 84 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: I need to figure that out. There was some some 85 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: uh some cautionary tale I was told at some point 86 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: as a child about some other child who cut off 87 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: over eyelashes, and it was bad news. Um. But there 88 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: are a number of medications and health conditions that can 89 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: cause people's eyelashes to fall out, things like styes, siasis, 90 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: and thyroid conditions. And that's just three of a laundry 91 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: list of things that we could go through. But we'll we'll, 92 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: We'll save you the listening time, right. And another another 93 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: factor is age. Follicles can slow or stop producing hair 94 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: altogether as you age. Um. But so you know, eyelashes, 95 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: they sound like they're pretty utilitarian. They they serve a purpose. 96 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: They're just on our face to protect our eyeballs. There 97 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: are eye whiskers. I think that is the cutest thing 98 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: that could as the potential to sound gross, I feel like, 99 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: but I think it's cute. I like it. I just 100 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: picture like kitten whiskers anyway. UM. So if they're so utilitarian, though, like, 101 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: why are we why are we so obsessed with emphasizing them? Well, 102 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: Caroline it's the most appropriate explanation for a lot of 103 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: these things because we've just done it for a really, 104 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: really really long time, so let's just keep doing it right. Well, 105 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: in the ancient Middle Eastern general people were blending minerals 106 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: with oils and fats to darken their eyelashes and eyebrows, 107 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: and they used coal as well. In ancient Egypt, though 108 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: playing up the eyes was not just for women, it 109 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: was the thing that everybody was doing. Um. They would 110 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: make coal from villena, which is lead sulfide, malachite, and 111 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: other minerals mixed with animal fats and I'm just like 112 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: imagining that getting into my eye and just I feel 113 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: like it would burn. But they would line their eyes 114 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: in the cati style that we think of from like 115 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: Cleopatra and whatever, for both spiritual and practical purposes. Yeah. 116 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: On the practical side, this would reduce glear from the sun, 117 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: kind of like the way that football players have the 118 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: eye black that they wear sometimes. And it also helped 119 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: keep insects away because galena was an effective insect repellent 120 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: and disinfectant, which now I'm wondering why my messcara is 121 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: not also an effective insect repellent, because that seems sandy. 122 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: But when it comes to malachite, that other ingredient that 123 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: they would mix into the coal, it was believed to 124 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: be a gift from Hath or the goddess of love, 125 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: So naturally you would want to put it on your 126 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: eyes because it was also an aphrodisiac. Right, So, I mean, 127 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: everybody's putting on I makeup and they're like, this is 128 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: so handy. This very utilitarian, practical thing is also for 129 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: sexy time. But it wasn't just for adults and sexy 130 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: things kids, but also have their eyes smeared with coal 131 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: to both. They thought it would both strengthen eyesight and 132 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: protect them from evil spirits. And in terms of spirits, 133 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: it also represented protection from basically like the eye um, 134 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: but it represented the eye of Horace and replicated images 135 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: of raw the sun god Caroline. Yet again, follow up question, 136 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: why does my mess hera not also repel insects but 137 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: also protect me from evil spirits? I would buy that mascara. 138 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: That's an incredible claim. The FDA might have a problem 139 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: with them. And if we move over to India, there 140 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: was a similar trend, a cosmetic trend of lining the 141 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: eyes as well with dark coal. And it actually gets 142 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: to mention in the Kama Sutra, which was written in 143 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: the fourth century, that provided a recipe for what it 144 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: called quote an uncan of adornment that has the effect 145 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: of making a person look lovely. So from the time 146 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: of the Kama Sutra, this was a makeup tip. Hey, 147 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: you want to look pretty well. It also cooled the 148 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: eye area and reduced glare from the sun. So again, 149 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 1: just like in ancient Egypt, there was a practice, a 150 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: purpose and a spiritual slash sexy time purpose. Yeah, there 151 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: was a religious significance of men and children applying coal 152 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: during a traditional ceremony called the serma. Yeah. And in 153 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: ancient Rome women would darken their eyelashes and the whole 154 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: eye area really with burnt cork. And if you move 155 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: into the Middle Ages and then the Renaissance and then 156 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: further into the Elizabethan area, total break with history because 157 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 1: this is when we see eyes really becoming d emphasized, 158 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: to the point where some women got rid of their 159 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: brows and lashes all together in favor of highlighting the chests, 160 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: which I get that's still the thing that people do, 161 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: but also the forehead. Look at my beautiful forehead. I 162 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: wonder if they were like minds of five head. Look 163 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: at this big five head, though, don't you find me attractive? 164 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: But by the time we get to the nineteenth century, 165 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: cosmetics were becoming more and more popular among Europeans and Americans, 166 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: and this was when big names in cosmetics began to emerge. 167 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: Because you have women going d i y with their mascara. 168 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: They would darken their eyelashes and eyebrows using homemade methods 169 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: like ashes and even still that ancient Roman method of 170 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: using the burnt cork to darken their eyelashes as well. 171 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: But then in eighteen thirty Eugene Remel came around and 172 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: made things a little bit easier, right, A couple of 173 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: decades after moving from France to London with his pop, 174 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: he actually developed an eyelash darkener using coal dust and 175 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: petroleum jellies, so not using animal fats this time. And 176 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: it was so successful that Remmel became synonymous with mascara 177 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: in a number of different languages. So we have Remal 178 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: initially to think for this earliest kind of mascara as 179 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: we start to think of it today. Though mascara was 180 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: not necessarily for everyone at least according to Madame Lola 181 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: Montez right in eighteen fifty eight. Uh, there's this book 182 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: published that I am absolutely going to go back and 183 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: read more of when I have time. Uh. It's Madame 184 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: Lolamantez is the Arts of Beauty or Secrets of a 185 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: Lady's Toilet with hints two gentlemen on the art of fascinating. 186 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: A book for your fellow too, that's right. Uh yeah, 187 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: So this was the stage name by the way of 188 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: Marie Dolores Eliza Rosanna Gilbert, Countess of Landsfield. But she 189 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: she had some pretty darn strong opinions on on I 190 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: make up, where she basically was like, hey, some of 191 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: you can pull this off, some of you can't. Don't 192 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: even try. When talking about fair skinned and fair haired women, 193 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, think of your friends who have very light 194 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: eyelashes or eyebrows, and they might want to emphasize them 195 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: so that you know they don't maybe don't look as pale. 196 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: She warned them against participating in this whole eye makeup thing. 197 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: She said, but take this fair creature and draw a 198 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: black line over her softly tinkshirt eyes, staining their beamy 199 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: fringes with a somber hue, and how frightfully you have 200 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: mutilated nature. She was very in favor. She's like, well, 201 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: you know, there are these women. They already have dark 202 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: hair and dark lashes. That's fine, they can roll with it. 203 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: But you fair haired ladies, you stay away from that 204 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: burnt cork. Well. She also had a tip for keeping 205 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: your lashes long and strong, which, yeah, it doesn't make 206 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: any sense and it's terrible in your mother, whoever told 207 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: you the story, would not approve you. Just trim them. 208 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: Get some tiny scissors and trim those eyeball whiskers. She said, 209 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: it is within the power of almost every lady to 210 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,119 Speaker 1: have long and strong eyelashes by simply chipping with scissors 211 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: the points of hair once in five or six weeks, 212 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: which actually today if you use latisse you do have 213 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: to do. Because they grow so long and so strong 214 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: they will bad cure glasses if you wear them, so 215 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: you have to trim them very carefully. To me, that 216 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: that feels creepy, like if my lashes were so long, 217 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: I feel like I would be distracted. Oh, I wouldn't mind. 218 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: I love long lashes. Well, somebody else who love long 219 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: lashes was Mabel Mabel Williams in nineteen fifteen. She inspired 220 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: her brother tom Lyle Williams, who later started the company Maybel, 221 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 1: which was named after his sister. Inspired by Mabel's use 222 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: of a burnt cork and vasoline to darken her eyes, 223 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: a trick she stole from Photoplay magazine, who stole it 224 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: from ancient history. Uh. He ended up developing a mail 225 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: order formula for cake mascara, although at the time it 226 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: wasn't called mascara yet. All of this stuff was still 227 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: being just called eyelash darkener. So this original Mabelne mascara, 228 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: which like you said, was not being called mascara yet, 229 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: it looked world of like a compacted blush or eyeshadow 230 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: as you would see it today. And the way you 231 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: would apply this eyelash darkener was by taking the wand 232 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: that it came with. You would wet the wand and 233 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: then run it over the cake mascara and then wanted 234 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: over your eyes. Which is funny because I feel like 235 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: there are a lot of modern day beauty tips where 236 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: they say, hey, take this cake of eyeshadow and wet 237 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: your brush and you can get a fabulous dark line 238 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: on your eyes and that's like ladies. They were already 239 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: doing that in Age of Gals. What's old is new. 240 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: But by nineteen sixty six Maybeling, that little company started 241 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: by Tom Williams, was earning more than twenty five million 242 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: dollars a year. Yeah. And by the way, it was 243 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty three that we started calling it mascara 244 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: instead of eyelash darkener. But when it comes to false lashes, 245 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: which are having a huge moment right now, uh, it 246 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: was in nineteen fifteen that the first fake eyelashes, the 247 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: first falsees were developed at the order of film director 248 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: David Griffith, who was working on this film called Intolerance 249 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: Loves Struggle Through the Ages, And obviously it's nineteen fifteen. 250 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: It is a silent film, and he wanted his lead actress, 251 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: Sena Owen to have lashes long enough that they would 252 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: brush her cheeks when she would blink. So she needed 253 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: really long lashes, so he got a wig maker to 254 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: glue tiny strips of hair to her eyelids. But at 255 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: that point it was still just a Hollywood magic trick. 256 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: It wasn't until the nineteen forties that false eyelashes became 257 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: available to the public. Yeah, and then of course they 258 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: had a huge reignition of popularity in the nineteen sixties 259 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: with all that strong, dark, thick eye makeup. And I 260 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: mean I wear him every Halloween. I can't say that 261 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: I like rock fake lashes any other time time. Well, 262 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: that might be good because all that glue near yr 263 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: New year gentle lashes. I don't want to rip out 264 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: any of my eyelid whiskers, that's right, because they take 265 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: seven weeks to grow back. Um. But if we go 266 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: back though to the nineteen thirties, there were some bumps 267 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: along the road in our development of mascara and false lashes, 268 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: because this was this was sort of the downside to 269 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: our long standing obsession with darkening these hairs on our eyelids. 270 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirties, women were getting maimed and blinded, 271 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: and one even died from using this product called lash 272 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: Lure eyelash and brow dye because it contained highly toxic 273 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: substance that would tinden the hair but also cause irritation 274 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: and ulcers. And so with that, eyelashed dies were banned 275 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: in several states. Yeah, it's around this time that we 276 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: get the Food and Drug Act and the f D 277 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: A and the Federal Trade Comission actually have to start 278 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: approve being claims and advertising and things like that, because 279 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: you don't really want ulcers that blind you. Yeah, if you, 280 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: I'm just warning you. You can google image lash lore 281 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: eyelash to see what it did to some of these women. 282 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: But I'm warning you that's it's not pretty. No. And 283 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties and forties we start to see 284 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: the development of eyelash curlers. The first one was actually 285 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: curl lash that's a K that is with a K, 286 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: and that was not a product of the Kardashian family 287 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: empire K for cookie. Uh. Yes, So we get eyelash 288 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: curlers and waterproof mass scara that was developed. I think 289 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: there was one Austrian actress that patented a version of 290 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: waterproof mascara. Yeah, and apparently because a lot of these 291 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: cosmetics come out of film and stage acting. And I 292 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: think it was the Austrian actress who're talking about was 293 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: a stage stage actress who needed a mascara that could 294 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: withstand her sweating under stage lights. But a lot of 295 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: the early waterproof mascara's would stay on, but they also 296 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: contained an adhesive so that after the actresses were done. 297 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: If they left it on too long, their eyelets would 298 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: get kind of stuck together, So it took some time 299 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: to develop what a freaking nightmare Um. In nineteen fifty eight, 300 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: Revlon launched their mascara in a tube with a spiral 301 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: wand and this was there were a couple other people 302 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: doing it at the same time. I don't think it 303 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: was just Revlon Um, but they ended up following it 304 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: up in nineteen sixty one with the first colored mascara, which, 305 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, all these things have obviously retained popularity. I 306 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: just saw some magazine like another recommendation for Um colored mascara, 307 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: which I used as a kid too, not a kid, 308 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: like a surly teenager. But anyway, in nineteen seventy one, 309 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: maybe Lene, it's still around launches. It's insanely popular Great 310 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: Lash mascara, which sally uses my mother, and by two 311 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: thousand two, one tube of Great Lash mascara was selling 312 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: every one point five seconds. And what continues to fascinate 313 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: me when it comes to mascara is how it seems 314 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: like any time you see a commercial for mascara, they've 315 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: come out with some kind of new innovation, like they're 316 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: constantly improving and improving and improving on these mascaras, which 317 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: obviously dubious marketing claims, but it just speaks to what 318 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: a massive market force, like our demand for mascara that 319 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: will perfectly elongate our lashes and make them look full 320 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: and not get clumpy and do all of these things. 321 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: How how huge of a force that is. Well, one 322 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: of the guys who works in the cosmetics industry who 323 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: was in one of these articles that we read, was 324 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: talking about how even people in the industry were taken 325 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: by surprise at the length that women were willing to 326 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: go to achieve this ideal lash and that included like 327 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: doing like a hundreds ropes of mascara on each eye 328 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: and they end up coming out with they're like, Okay, well, 329 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: there's obviously a demand. That's not a problem. We just 330 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: need to put some products in front of these women 331 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: that they'll go for, and that includes things like the 332 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: vibrating uh mascara one. Yeah, so you know how they 333 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: tell you when you put on mascara to sort of 334 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: wiggle the wand back and forth and drag it up. Yes, well, 335 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: this thing if you're hardcore enough about your makeup, and 336 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: he specifies that he said, this is obviously not for 337 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: your average woman putting mascara on in the morning before 338 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: she dashes out the door to work. This is for 339 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: somebody who is hardcore and to makeup, and it's definitely 340 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: going to spend a lot of time getting ready, and 341 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: so the wand vibrates as you put on the mass era. 342 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: Could you just use an old electric toothbrush? Get your 343 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: get your nineties cake, I Darkenner, Yeah, what's your what's 344 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: your electric trooth? What your electric toothbrush? Put it in there. 345 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 1: Than I think it's perfect. We're onto something. We are 346 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: on something, probably very dangerous um And I mean I've 347 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: also found myself standing in the drug store cosmetic aisle 348 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: just staring at mascara's How do you how do you pick? 349 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, how many conversations have you 350 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: had with other women about their preferred mascara? Are the 351 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: ones that they swear by? But then you use and 352 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: you're like, but this, no, this isn't doing what I need. 353 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: And then in I feel like every single edition of 354 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: every single mainstream women's magazine, there is at least one 355 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: feature on some new mascara that you have to try. Yeah, Well, 356 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, I just don't. I've been burned before, Kristen. 357 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: And I don't mean literally like with lash floor. I 358 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: mean that I will see some mascara that's been really 359 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: hyped up, and I don't want to pick on any 360 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: brands or whatever, but I'll see something's been like super 361 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: hyped up across magazines and I'll say, well, God, if 362 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 1: it's so great, I'll give it a shot. And then 363 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: I've been severely disappointed because either it's completely under my 364 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: eyes by the end of the day or I can't 365 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: get it off even though it's not waterproof except etcetera, etcetera. 366 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: So I have found a brand that I have used 367 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: since high school and even the same type, like subtype 368 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: of mascara in that brand, and I'm not going to 369 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: give it up because it's too scary out there in 370 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: the mascara world. There's any choices well, and it's so 371 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: easy for us as consumers to make those choices because 372 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,719 Speaker 1: like things like uh, YouTube a lipstick, well now polish, 373 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: it's one of those small luxury items that we we 374 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 1: don't mind parting with it just a few dollars just 375 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: to just to try it out. Although some can get 376 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: quite expensive, but it's genius. I mean it's it's honestly 377 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: a genius product because it constantly keeps women guessing and 378 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: spending usually insignificant enough sums of money that will just 379 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: continue doing it. Well. That's like with lipstick. You know, 380 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: we've talked about the lipstick index on the podcast before 381 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: about like during the recession and during times of of 382 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: economic downturn. You know, everybody's trying to save money and 383 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: they're down on their luck, but you're still going to 384 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: go to the store pick up a lipstick or in 385 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: this case, a mascara because it's a way to to 386 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: make yourself feel pretty. And I feel like you're still 387 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: participating in a beauty ritual, but not spend a hundred 388 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,239 Speaker 1: dollars like you might on a fancy haircut. But if 389 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,479 Speaker 1: you want to spend not just a hundred, but hundreds 390 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: of dollars on your eyelashes these days, you certainly can 391 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: by getting eyelash extensions, which started in Japan and then 392 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: started getting really popular in the States in two thousand five. 393 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: And you go there. There are actual eyelash beauty bars 394 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: that you can go to these days where for a 395 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: few hundred dollars or maybe more. You can lay down 396 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: for an hour or two and have someone hand stitch 397 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: eyelashes fake eyelashes into your real eyelashes. Yeah, and it's funny. 398 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: There were two different articles that we looked at, uh 399 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: where women gave a first person account of trying this 400 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: out and how. One woman gave a hilarious account of 401 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: like who in her life ranked them and who in 402 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: her life noticed at first and her boyfriend. She said 403 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 1: like something like her boyfriend rolled over and was just 404 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: going looks like your face. Another woman was called out 405 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: at her son's soccer game for having incredibly long lashes, 406 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: and the other woman assumed she'd done like a walk 407 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: of shame or something because it looked like she was 408 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: still wearing so much makeup. Yeah, but I can't say 409 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: that I would do that. There's something that's scary. I 410 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: don't have that much disposable income. A. But B I'm 411 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: scared about adhesives on my eyelashes. Yeah, it seems like 412 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: a pretty daunting procedure to go through just for lashes 413 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: because the only last for a few weeks max um. 414 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: But if you want something that lasts a bit longer 415 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: and also have more disposable income to spend. There's always Latise, 416 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,719 Speaker 1: which hit the market in two thousand and eight, and 417 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: I remember first seeing ads for Latisse and laughing about 418 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: how ridiculous it seemed like, was like, Oh, really, are 419 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: we really being sold longer lashes? Come on, this is 420 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: gonna tank? No, I was. I was so wrong with 421 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: Caroline rep shields doesn't lie clear, James? Oh yeah, clear, Dames? 422 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: Does it too? Um? Yeah, this is It's a glaucoma 423 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,719 Speaker 1: drug that they found had the incredible side effect of 424 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: making lashes longer. But like christ And said earlier, you 425 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: definitely got a trim those babies or else they will 426 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,719 Speaker 1: just keep growing and and bringing us up today, like 427 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: concluding our timeline, basically, the mascara industry is nothing to 428 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: sniff at. An international serve in two thousand two found 429 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: that women worldwide are using mascarat, Mabelin remaining the best 430 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: selling brand, and it's the mascara market itself, just by itself, 431 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: is a four point one billion dollar industry, and I 432 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: have a feeling that that number is even bigger today 433 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: because that was reported on in two thousand nine, So 434 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: I can only imagine that the number continues to up 435 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: and up and up, and you will see trend pieces 436 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: pop up every now and then about how guys are 437 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: also getting in on the eyelash game. There's actually something 438 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: called brand eye Lure that makes false eyelashes specifically for guys, 439 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: which are designed to be subtle and give guys what 440 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: they call a Hollywood gaze, So so the male gaze. Yeah, yeah, Well, Caroline, 441 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: we've gone through the history of mascara and we've talked 442 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: about how we've done it forever, but that still doesn't 443 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: answer the question of why we pay so much attention 444 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: to these puppies, because it has to be more than 445 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: just tradition. There has to be something behind this idea 446 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: that bolder, more voluminous, longer, more lush eyelashes will make 447 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: us more attractive. It's definitely related to the Kammas suitor 448 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: recommending it oh spicy, and we'll get into that spiciness 449 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. So 450 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,959 Speaker 1: there's this book called Love Signals, A Practical Field Guide 451 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: to the Body Language of Courtship by David Givens and 452 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: Grain of Salt just Grain of Salt. But Givens claims 453 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: that we spend so much time on our lashes because 454 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: it's all about sex signaling. It's about sex, right right, Yeah, 455 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: he talks about a good old rapid eye blink or 456 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: eyelash flutter means that you've raised the blinkers level of 457 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: psychological arousal. And so he says that batting the eyelashes 458 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: is a familiar flirting cue seen around the world, and 459 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: wearing mascara or artificial lashes embellishes that, Hey, I find 460 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: you sexy. Blink see I I find though, anecdotally, that 461 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: whenever I catch myself blinking rapidly, it's because I'm startled 462 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: and shocked by something some wires crossed. The Yeah, so 463 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: that makes me fun on a date. And so by 464 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: extension of that, Gibbons says, of course women wear mascara 465 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: or artificial lashes to embellish the blink. But even though 466 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: we think of sort of in a trophy kind of 467 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: way of batting your eyelashes as being a very feminine queue, 468 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 1: it's a signal that we are trying to catch your 469 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: attention or curry favor. Studies show, according to Gibbons, that 470 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: both sexes blink faster with partners they like. So, yeah, 471 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: pay attention. I don't. I'm gonna now start tracking my 472 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: eye blinking when I'm on a date with my boyfriend. Well, 473 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: Givens actually recommends that people do that. Oh, pay attention 474 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: to your blinkingly Yeah, like not well, not your own, 475 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: but your dates, like not counting them because you'd be 476 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: like I want to, but but sitting there and maybe 477 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: talk about maybe if they're looking away, see how often 478 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: they're blinking, if they're looking at the way it or something. 479 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: But then when they look back at you, if all 480 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: of a sudden they're blinking a lot, take note because 481 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: body language cues again grain of salt um. But he 482 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: also talks in his book about how and this is 483 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: getting away from eyelashes, but in general, he talks about 484 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: how people tend to find moving faces more attractive, like 485 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: facial movements and facial expressions make you more attractive in 486 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: the eye of the beholder. And so he says that 487 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: it's basically seeing big spider eyelashes. Blinking and moving uh 488 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: is part of prioritizing movement the visual system prioritizing movement 489 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: on the face, and that fluttering your long lashes can 490 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: catch and keep eye contact well. And there's also when 491 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: it comes to how we often use mascara to darken 492 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: our lashes. That does tend to make the whites of 493 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: our eyes look brighter. So there are theories that we 494 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 1: use mascara stone much. We were so into darkening our 495 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 1: lashes because by whitening the whites of our eyes it 496 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: makes us look healthier. And Margot Demelo, who wrote Faces 497 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: around the World, a cultural encyclopedia of the human face, 498 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: says that eyelashes, just eyelashes themselves, are considered a sign 499 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: of femininity also because they make the eyes look larger. 500 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: And this gets into evolutionary theories about how men straight 501 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: men are attracted to almost baby face looking women, not 502 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: because of infantilizing purposes, but because there's this idea that 503 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: babies evolved their super baby cuteness to specifically to keep 504 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: fathers invested in them for the long term, and so 505 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: over time that translated to their attraction to their female mates. 506 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: And bigger eyelashes make it looks like you have bigger eyes, 507 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: which makes you look sort of younger, healthier. I look 508 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: really young. My eyes are super wide, haroline s eyes 509 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: are huge, and I'm scared. No, I I definitely like 510 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: all of this stuff resonates in my brain because on mornings, 511 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: especially like this morning, I was super tired and I'm 512 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: just I find myself putting on a ton more mascara 513 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: when I feel like I look tired or feel tired, 514 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: because I just I almost want the mascara to just 515 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: lift lift my eyes open and keep them open, give 516 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: me baby eyeballs. That's all we need. And I also 517 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: wonder too if by enhancing our eyes and making them 518 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: look larger, sort of creating this optical illusion around our 519 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: own eyes is one example two of what's called a 520 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: super normal stimulus, which you hear a lot about when 521 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: it comes to why women look sexy in high heels, 522 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: because it creates what's called a super normal stimulus, sort 523 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: of an exaggerated signal in the case of high heels, 524 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: of making our hips shift and making our butts bounce 525 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: a little bit, which is already a signal of youth, fertility, etcetera, etcetera. 526 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: So mascara might be creating one of those supernormal stimuli 527 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: in our eyeball region as well. So there's all sorts 528 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: of evolutionary theories behind why we do it, although I 529 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: wonder yet again, you know, evolution. Why why couldn't Why 530 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: couldn't you have made health in fertility as strong of 531 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: the signal for men just so that they had to 532 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: wear all this stuff too. They did in Egypt. But 533 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: I think I wonder if that's more though, that it 534 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: was that hot, dry climate, that it was more of 535 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: the enhancing the utilitarian functions of mascara to keep stuff 536 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: out of our eyes, to deflect the sun's rays. Could be, 537 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: I mean, but it is interesting, just like total side 538 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: note that this practice does go back so long, forever 539 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: people have been doing this, and you do have rocker guys, 540 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: you know those rocker tips, some goth dips, one of 541 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: my ex boyfriends, one of Caroline's six boyfriends, who will 542 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: rock some guyliner and some mascara from time to time. 543 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: And hey guys, I mean Johnny Depp in Pirates of 544 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: the Caribbean. Yeah, alright, messy, handsome, sloppy, handsome. Um, but 545 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: eyelashes are definitely tied into gender cues. Uh. I mean, 546 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: you could just ask any child reading a comic book. 547 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: My dad used to joke when I was growing up 548 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: and had goldfish. He used to joke about, like, well, 549 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: how can you tell which fish is the girl fish, 550 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: she has eyelashes. Um, but no, that's a thing. That's 551 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: really a thing. Um. There are plenty of comic book 552 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: and comic strip examples, including characters like Mini Mouse versus 553 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,719 Speaker 1: Mickey Mouse or Petunia the Pig versus Porky, who were like, 554 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: here is a woman creature that has eyelashes, because you can't, 555 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: and especially in a children's cartoon like Disney or something, 556 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: it's not like you can put bodacious breasts on a 557 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: duck or whatever and have it be normal for kids. 558 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: So they had to emphasize some sort of like secondary, 559 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: non threatening sex characteristic. Yeah, and that was something that 560 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: Trina Robbins wrote about over in Image and Narrative. And 561 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: I wonder sort of based off that, if Barbie wasn't 562 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: so curvaceous and had such prominent boobs, if maybe she 563 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: would have had more prominent eyelashes, because she doesn't have. 564 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: I mean, your eyes don't blink. But I'm just saying 565 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: this is a total side theory. I'm now starting to 566 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: think way too much about eyelashes. But I hadn't realized before. 567 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: I hadn't put that to the two and two together 568 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: in terms of oh long eyelashes gender q for you know, 569 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: these cartoons that cannot be voluptuous because when things like 570 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: many Mouse and and all of these characters are first 571 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: being drawn early on in the twentieth century, it's you know, 572 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: women in our culture had been darkening their eyes forever. 573 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: And so it's obviously not that if Mickey Mouse were 574 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: a real boy, he wouldn't have eyelashes, because boys have eyelashes, 575 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 1: but you do. The cartoonists had to find a way 576 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: to indicate, to give that gender cue two children to know, hey, 577 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: this is a girl mouse, and kids do pick up 578 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: on those gender cues, even down to the eyelashes from 579 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: a very young age. Arizona State University psychologist Carol Martin 580 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: actually noticed this effect of gender schema on her four 581 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: year old niece because she she observed that when her 582 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: niece drew stick figures, the women had eyelashes, but the 583 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 1: men didn't. Well again, I mean, if they're stick figures 584 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: and you're a kid, and you're like, I know, you 585 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: look like a person, but I don't know how to 586 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: translate you looking like that to my piece of paper. 587 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: I can just draw sticks. It's like, I I need 588 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: you to know that this is a woman person eyelashes, 589 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,879 Speaker 1: give her some eyelashes. And considering all that we've now 590 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: talked about, Caroline, it seems like the trajectory of our 591 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: concern over our eyelashes has only gone up and up 592 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 1: and up and up. It's never dropped off at any 593 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: point to the so today we have these expensive false eyelashes, 594 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: you know, treatments that we can go get them sewn 595 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: into our faces, or we can get all these high 596 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: end mascara's. Um it's never really dropped off to where 597 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: today there's Latisse, there's the eyelash extensions that you can 598 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: get hands sewn into your eyelashes. They're all sorts of 599 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: mascara's out there. And there are false slashes, which are 600 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: so huge right now. I was actually in a cosmetic 601 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: store this past weekend and took a while just staring 602 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: at all of the different varieties of the false flashes. 603 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: But speaking of false slashes, before we close out this podcast, 604 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 1: real talk for a minute, we need to address the 605 00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: fact that those false flashes are being often made by 606 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: women who are being paid just next to nothing, absolutely nothing. Yeah. 607 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: The Guardian did an article on this, looking at women 608 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 1: in Indonesia in particular because that's where the huge industry 609 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: is and the factories are. Um that pointed out that, 610 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: for instance, with the brand eye Lures Katie Perry range 611 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: of false eyelashes, the women who are making those in 612 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: Indonesia start on about fifty pounds a month, whereas the 613 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: lashes sell for just under six pounds in in the UK. 614 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 1: And there are a ton of cosmetics and fashion names 615 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: that have factories in Perba Lingo, which is in Central Java, Indonesia, 616 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: and a lot of these companies gravitate towards this region 617 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: because of the very low legal minimum wage, and these 618 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: women just aren't making any money. And I keep saying 619 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: these women because about the workers and these factories making 620 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: our false eyelashes that I go by on how queen 621 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: them are women? Well, and the fact too that you 622 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: have all sorts of cosmetic companies that are in per Bolinga, 623 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: including brands like Loreale, mac Makeup Forever and Mabelin it's 624 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: probably not just the false flashes that are being made 625 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: for you know, next to nothing. And the women working 626 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: in these factories, going back to the false eyelashes will 627 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: make as little as seven cents for every pair that 628 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 1: they make but women working from home will make them 629 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: who make them will make about two cents prepare. So 630 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: I wonder if we need to do a follow up 631 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: episode on this talking about how our cosmetics industry here 632 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: affects how that affects the women who are actually making 633 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: these cosmetics and probably not going out to buy the 634 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: newest mask era, the newest lipstick and get their nails 635 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,879 Speaker 1: done and ever have false eyelashes stone into their eyes. Yeah, 636 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: I mean, this is certainly something that makes sense because 637 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: but I have never really thought about when I go 638 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 1: pick up a pair every year for Halloween of false 639 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: eyelashes where they come from. I just think, oh, it's 640 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: just the factory. It cranks them out somewhere in New 641 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: Jersey or something that the eyelash factory. Obvious little lash factory. 642 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: I'll go there. Hopefully it's not as creepy as the 643 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: chocolate factory. Who really wank up? But yeah, I mean 644 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: it's something to think about as we as we celebrate 645 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: and examine our our eyelash habits. Yeah, and and also 646 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: like consider how far we have gone this is. I mean, 647 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: it's a global industry. It's massive, and there are people 648 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: on both ends of it. Both on the production side 649 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,919 Speaker 1: and on the side that we're talking about in terms 650 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: of going and consuming it. So with that, we want 651 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: to hear from you. We want to hear all of 652 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: your eyelashy thoughts. Are you like Caroline and me and 653 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: have spent a lot of time considering your mascara and eyelashes? 654 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: Let us know mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com 655 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: And if there are any eyelash conscious guys out there, 656 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: I specifically want to hear from you, because what do 657 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: you do if you're a guy? Do you can you 658 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,240 Speaker 1: get away with wearing mascara to make them look longer? 659 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: Do you even care? I just want to know. Mom 660 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuffwork dot com is our email address. 661 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 662 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,760 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we have a couple of messages 663 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So we've got a 664 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: couple of letters here from some guy listeners about our 665 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,280 Speaker 1: episode on modesty. Joshua writes, I'm one of your newer 666 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: listeners and I binge listened to you and the rest 667 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 1: of How Stuff Works while I'm at work, and right 668 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: now I'm listening to your modesty episode and wanted to 669 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: share my thoughts as the father of two young boys, 670 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: it is important I feel that women be taught to 671 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 1: dress for the environment they're in, and dressing modestly is 672 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: also important. However, it's also the responsibility of young men 673 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: to treat women with respect, no matter what they're wearing. Locally, 674 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: there's been a kerfuffle about what young ladies wear in 675 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: schools and the double standards in terms of what the 676 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: different genders can wear. Two things would help alleviate the 677 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: issue surrounding dress codes and how young men and lesbian 678 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: young women are quote distracted by their classmates. One. Education, 679 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: it's important that young people understand what is happening to 680 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: them as they grow up and begin to notice potential partners. 681 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,839 Speaker 1: This way, they can be shown what appropriate behavior is. 682 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: To change the dress code of high school to reflect 683 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: a business casual atmosphere. This will instill a sense of 684 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: appropriateness for when your young people get into the real world. Personally, 685 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: I'm in the modest hottest camp, which may have something 686 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: to do with my Protestant upbringing. I intend to show 687 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 1: my boys that a woman is beautiful no matter how 688 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: she dresses, and that she should be treated as a 689 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: person who is no less or greater than they are. 690 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: So thanks Joshua, and thanks for raising your boys upright. Well. 691 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Peter also about our 692 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: modesty episode. Um he says, h. I think when a 693 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: lot of men weigh in on this subject, they don't 694 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,399 Speaker 1: have a clear understanding of how random and indiscriminate male 695 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: gaze and harassment can be. I'm assist gendered man who 696 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,439 Speaker 1: presents himself in a very feminine way. I have long hair, 697 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: and by both men and women's clothing. I don't often 698 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,280 Speaker 1: get much of a hassle for it, but one experience 699 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 1: sticks out of my mind. About a year ago, I 700 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: was walking home from class on a rainy day when 701 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: a man float his car next to me and, assuming 702 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: I was female, began cat calling me. He offered me 703 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: a ride, He repeatedly asked for my number, asked if 704 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: I had a boyfriend. If you're male, this is something 705 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,439 Speaker 1: you are never taught how to deal with. You hear 706 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: stories about cat calling and harassment, but you never understand 707 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: how invasive it is until you experienced at firsthand. I 708 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,359 Speaker 1: couldn't even process what was going on. I get mis 709 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: gendered by cashiers on an almost weekly basis, but this 710 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,919 Speaker 1: was another level of upsetting. He followed me for about 711 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 1: a block before I finally got the nerve to tell 712 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: him off properly. I spent the rest of the week 713 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 1: obsessing over it, wondering what I did wrong? Was it 714 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,280 Speaker 1: something I was wearing? Was it the way I walked? 715 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: After I got my thoughts together and consulted female friends 716 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: about what happened, their response was a unanimous no. He 717 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: just thought you were a girl. That is why you 718 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: were cat called. They proceeded to share their stories with 719 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: me of the workplace, in the classroom. It was happening 720 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: to them every single day. I could barely take it 721 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 1: after it happened once, so to all of the other 722 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: men in the audience. If a woman in your life 723 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: tells you about how someone harassed or please don't make 724 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: it about modesty. Until you've walked a day in a 725 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: woman's shoes or in my case, a woman's pants, I 726 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: don't think you're going to understand quite how complicated and 727 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: personal this topic gets. No matter what you look like 728 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: or what you're wearing. If some jerk thanks you're a woman, 729 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: they're probably going to think is totally okay to invade 730 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: your privacy and to make advances on you. Thank you 731 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 1: for another excellent podcast, and here's hoping my terrible experience 732 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,879 Speaker 1: can be put to good use. So thank you so much, Peter, Yeah, 733 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff 734 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address 735 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with us via 736 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: social you can find all of our links to that 737 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: stuff as well as all of our blogs, dios, and podcasts, 738 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: which also include all of our sources so you can 739 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: follow along with us. All that's over at stuff mom 740 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for more on this and 741 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Doesn't have stuff works dot com