1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:27,930 Speaker 1: Pushkin. A warning before we start. This episode of Cautionary 2 00:00:28,050 --> 00:00:32,730 Speaker 1: Tales contains explicit sexual content. Indeed, it begins with it. 3 00:00:33,250 --> 00:00:39,330 Speaker 1: You have been warned. It's not suitable for children. Ladies, 4 00:00:39,610 --> 00:00:43,250 Speaker 1: please find your nests, instructs the voice over the tannoy. 5 00:00:43,890 --> 00:00:47,330 Speaker 1: Gentlemen walk up to the stage, Please wash your hands 6 00:00:47,490 --> 00:00:53,130 Speaker 1: and find your supplies. It's August twenty thirteen, and hundreds 7 00:00:53,170 --> 00:00:57,650 Speaker 1: of people in casual business attire, sporting colored wristbands and 8 00:00:57,770 --> 00:01:02,330 Speaker 1: lanyards mill a round San Francisco's Regency Center looking for 9 00:01:02,370 --> 00:01:07,290 Speaker 1: their places. But this is no venture capitalist gathering. This 10 00:01:07,450 --> 00:01:12,090 Speaker 1: is not a digital marketing conference. Attendees have paid three 11 00:01:12,170 --> 00:01:15,690 Speaker 1: hundred and ninety five dollars to be here. They've attended 12 00:01:15,810 --> 00:01:20,290 Speaker 1: lectures and demonstrations, and now many are going to participate 13 00:01:20,410 --> 00:01:25,290 Speaker 1: in this headline event. Three one hundred and fifty nests 14 00:01:26,170 --> 00:01:30,330 Speaker 1: blue yoga mats covered with gray blankets have been arranged 15 00:01:30,530 --> 00:01:35,490 Speaker 1: across the floor. The women disrobe from the waist down 16 00:01:36,210 --> 00:01:40,930 Speaker 1: and lie down with their legs butterflied out. Their male 17 00:01:41,130 --> 00:01:45,650 Speaker 1: partners settle on cushions beside them, put on latex gloves, 18 00:01:46,810 --> 00:01:53,290 Speaker 1: and dip their fingers in lube. This is own X 19 00:01:53,850 --> 00:01:59,690 Speaker 1: or to give it its full title, Orgasmic Meditation Experience, 20 00:02:00,370 --> 00:02:05,650 Speaker 1: a conference on the medical benefits of female orgasm. Attendees 21 00:02:05,690 --> 00:02:13,250 Speaker 1: have been promised healing, pleasure, and spiritual transformation. This is 22 00:02:13,330 --> 00:02:17,770 Speaker 1: the largest own group yet. The conference staffer, wearing a 23 00:02:17,770 --> 00:02:22,530 Speaker 1: blue Powered by Orgasm t shirt, tells the group you 24 00:02:22,690 --> 00:02:33,970 Speaker 1: are history in the making. The mass stroking begins later. 25 00:02:34,370 --> 00:02:38,490 Speaker 1: The tall blonde woman who made all this possible struts 26 00:02:38,530 --> 00:02:42,570 Speaker 1: out on stage and strappy heels as black eyed peas, 27 00:02:42,890 --> 00:02:46,890 Speaker 1: I got a feeling plays across the speakers. The crowd 28 00:02:47,010 --> 00:02:53,290 Speaker 1: reads their set screw like a rock star. Connection is 29 00:02:53,330 --> 00:03:02,010 Speaker 1: the new religion, declares Nicole Dadone. I'm Tim Harford and 30 00:03:02,050 --> 00:03:29,090 Speaker 1: you're listening to cautionary tales. Attractive and charismatic. Nicole Dadon 31 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:33,930 Speaker 1: was the co founder and face of One Taste, a 32 00:03:34,050 --> 00:03:39,930 Speaker 1: sexual well being company which celebrated the power of female orgasm. 33 00:03:40,050 --> 00:03:44,530 Speaker 1: As well as headquarters in superliberal San Francisco, One Taste 34 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:48,970 Speaker 1: had branches all over America and even in London and Sydney. 35 00:03:49,410 --> 00:03:54,490 Speaker 1: It was promoted on Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop platform. Thousands attended 36 00:03:54,530 --> 00:03:59,410 Speaker 1: the weekend long ome X conferences and even more watched 37 00:03:59,530 --> 00:04:04,890 Speaker 1: Nicole spread her message in lively TEDx talks. But for 38 00:04:05,010 --> 00:04:09,970 Speaker 1: all the talk of pleasure and freedom, control and coercion 39 00:04:10,570 --> 00:04:15,490 Speaker 1: hid beneath One Taste's Glossy Vanier. Here to tell me 40 00:04:15,570 --> 00:04:19,050 Speaker 1: about the rise and fall of the sex cult is 41 00:04:19,130 --> 00:04:24,730 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg journalist who uncovered its secrets, Ellen Hewitt, Ellen, 42 00:04:25,290 --> 00:04:26,690 Speaker 1: welcome to caution Me Tales. 43 00:04:27,090 --> 00:04:28,450 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 44 00:04:28,810 --> 00:04:31,370 Speaker 1: You have written a book about all of this empire 45 00:04:31,450 --> 00:04:35,170 Speaker 1: of orgasm. I have goodness me all about One Taste, 46 00:04:35,210 --> 00:04:38,690 Speaker 1: all about Nicole Daydon. How did you first come across 47 00:04:38,690 --> 00:04:39,250 Speaker 1: her story? 48 00:04:39,770 --> 00:04:44,810 Speaker 2: Well, in twenty seventeen, I was working at Bloomberg News 49 00:04:44,850 --> 00:04:47,970 Speaker 2: as I do now, and I was based in San Francisco, 50 00:04:48,170 --> 00:04:52,450 Speaker 2: and I was covering startups. That was my beat. And 51 00:04:53,130 --> 00:04:56,850 Speaker 2: one morning I received a pitch, as I do dozens 52 00:04:56,850 --> 00:04:59,730 Speaker 2: of times a day, and this one caught my eye 53 00:04:59,770 --> 00:05:03,090 Speaker 2: because it was about orgasmic meditation, which is an inherently 54 00:05:03,810 --> 00:05:07,770 Speaker 2: eye catching subject. Yeah, you know, I was curious and 55 00:05:07,930 --> 00:05:13,570 Speaker 2: I ended up responding to the pitch and hearing what 56 00:05:13,610 --> 00:05:16,690 Speaker 2: they were offering, which was basically, hey, this is a 57 00:05:16,930 --> 00:05:22,970 Speaker 2: fast growing woman led wellness startup. You're right about startups. 58 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:25,290 Speaker 2: Are you interested in potentially doing a story on us? 59 00:05:25,330 --> 00:05:28,330 Speaker 2: And I said maybe, And I took a first meeting 60 00:05:28,410 --> 00:05:32,250 Speaker 2: with the leadership of the company and heard the initial pitch, 61 00:05:32,290 --> 00:05:36,010 Speaker 2: which was, like, doing orgasmic meditation every day is really 62 00:05:36,050 --> 00:05:39,970 Speaker 2: good for you. We are the whole foods of sexuality, 63 00:05:39,970 --> 00:05:43,890 Speaker 2: where the organic good for you version of sexuality. We 64 00:05:43,930 --> 00:05:45,570 Speaker 2: think our practice can heal the world. 65 00:05:45,810 --> 00:05:48,250 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's kind of like yoga, Like you're going 66 00:05:48,290 --> 00:05:51,250 Speaker 1: to go to a yoga studio, except you're going to masturbate, 67 00:05:51,330 --> 00:05:52,970 Speaker 1: or you're going to be masturbated. 68 00:05:53,290 --> 00:05:56,210 Speaker 2: Right, someone is going to touch you or you will 69 00:05:56,210 --> 00:05:59,650 Speaker 2: touch someone. In their vision for the spread of orgasmic 70 00:05:59,730 --> 00:06:04,570 Speaker 2: meditation or OM slash OM, they viewed OM as a 71 00:06:04,610 --> 00:06:11,570 Speaker 2: pillar alongside yoga, meditation other core aspects of modern commercial wellness. 72 00:06:12,250 --> 00:06:15,730 Speaker 2: So I heard the initial pitch, and I decided to 73 00:06:15,930 --> 00:06:18,050 Speaker 2: poke around a little on my own, as journalists like 74 00:06:18,130 --> 00:06:21,410 Speaker 2: to do, and I ended up finding first one, and 75 00:06:21,450 --> 00:06:25,810 Speaker 2: then several and then more people who said that their 76 00:06:25,890 --> 00:06:29,250 Speaker 2: experience at One Taste had actually been quite different from 77 00:06:29,930 --> 00:06:31,970 Speaker 2: the public image of the company at the time. 78 00:06:32,610 --> 00:06:35,650 Speaker 1: Yeah, But just sticking with the surface of the story 79 00:06:35,690 --> 00:06:40,010 Speaker 1: for a moment, just to get people to come together 80 00:06:40,050 --> 00:06:42,610 Speaker 1: in a room no pun intended. There'll be a lot 81 00:06:42,610 --> 00:06:45,610 Speaker 1: of that, I'm sure, to gather together in a room 82 00:06:45,930 --> 00:06:50,730 Speaker 1: and then in public to be touched brought to orgasm. 83 00:06:50,890 --> 00:06:52,970 Speaker 1: And there's like dozens of other people, there's hundreds of 84 00:06:53,010 --> 00:06:55,930 Speaker 1: other people. To encourage a bunch of people to do that, 85 00:06:56,050 --> 00:07:01,290 Speaker 1: I think requires a certain kind of person. So tell 86 00:07:01,330 --> 00:07:03,330 Speaker 1: me about Nicole Daydon't. 87 00:07:03,610 --> 00:07:07,810 Speaker 2: Well, Nicole day Don't is a fascinating person and she 88 00:07:07,970 --> 00:07:12,170 Speaker 2: is undoubtedly the main character, not only of the book 89 00:07:12,490 --> 00:07:15,610 Speaker 2: Empire of Orgasm, but of the story of One Taste Like. 90 00:07:15,690 --> 00:07:20,090 Speaker 2: She is the charismatic leader, she's the visionary, she's the guru, 91 00:07:20,210 --> 00:07:25,570 Speaker 2: she's the creator of this community in the entire story. 92 00:07:26,450 --> 00:07:31,490 Speaker 2: She had an unusual childhood. She was born in the 93 00:07:31,530 --> 00:07:36,330 Speaker 2: Bay Area and grew up in the seventies with a 94 00:07:36,490 --> 00:07:41,530 Speaker 2: single mother. And her father was this sort of faraway 95 00:07:41,610 --> 00:07:45,130 Speaker 2: figure who only visited occasionally and with whom she yearned 96 00:07:45,170 --> 00:07:48,770 Speaker 2: to have a closer relationship. And what's most important about 97 00:07:48,810 --> 00:07:52,970 Speaker 2: his history is that he is a convicted child sex abuser. 98 00:07:53,930 --> 00:07:59,370 Speaker 2: He was incarcerated for child sex abuse related crimes, once 99 00:07:59,410 --> 00:08:02,370 Speaker 2: when Nicole was young, like under ten years old, and 100 00:08:02,410 --> 00:08:05,010 Speaker 2: again when she was in her twenties, and he actually 101 00:08:05,090 --> 00:08:08,730 Speaker 2: died in custody that second time before he was ever convicted, 102 00:08:09,370 --> 00:08:14,930 Speaker 2: and she has spoken about her father's criminal history as 103 00:08:15,090 --> 00:08:17,810 Speaker 2: being an inspiration for her wanting to show the world 104 00:08:18,610 --> 00:08:22,410 Speaker 2: that sexuality, which can have this dark and dangerous side, 105 00:08:22,810 --> 00:08:26,690 Speaker 2: could also heal in equal measure. But she has often 106 00:08:26,770 --> 00:08:30,970 Speaker 2: sidestepped the question of whether her father abused her. People 107 00:08:30,970 --> 00:08:33,570 Speaker 2: who had known her when she was younger told me 108 00:08:33,770 --> 00:08:36,650 Speaker 2: that she had at some point told them that her 109 00:08:36,690 --> 00:08:41,410 Speaker 2: father had sexually abused her. She additionally, later on in 110 00:08:41,410 --> 00:08:45,730 Speaker 2: her life, reshaped the story of her father's abuse to 111 00:08:45,770 --> 00:08:50,090 Speaker 2: frame it as something that she, as a child had 112 00:08:50,130 --> 00:08:54,890 Speaker 2: either instigated or wanted or tried to set in motion 113 00:08:55,010 --> 00:08:57,810 Speaker 2: in some way. And if you speak to experts on 114 00:08:57,890 --> 00:09:00,290 Speaker 2: child sex abuse, they will say that although this is 115 00:09:00,370 --> 00:09:04,330 Speaker 2: kind of a shocking idea, it is not uncommon that 116 00:09:04,450 --> 00:09:07,930 Speaker 2: people who have experienced something like this will find ways 117 00:09:08,050 --> 00:09:11,130 Speaker 2: automatically to reff frame it such that they did feel 118 00:09:11,170 --> 00:09:16,850 Speaker 2: some agency. It's obviously a sensitive subject, but I think 119 00:09:17,370 --> 00:09:20,690 Speaker 2: it's an important way to understand what drives her. She 120 00:09:20,770 --> 00:09:24,450 Speaker 2: then spent her life, especially her twenties, and honestly the 121 00:09:24,490 --> 00:09:30,890 Speaker 2: years after as well, living in pursuit of extreme experiences intensity, 122 00:09:31,290 --> 00:09:34,650 Speaker 2: often in sexual situations, as a way of understanding oneself. 123 00:09:35,170 --> 00:09:39,330 Speaker 1: Interesting, how was it that Nicole got onto this path 124 00:09:39,530 --> 00:09:43,690 Speaker 1: of sexual wellness and this idea of orgasmic meditation. 125 00:09:43,770 --> 00:09:49,010 Speaker 2: In her late twenties, she met someone who was a 126 00:09:49,130 --> 00:09:55,970 Speaker 2: student at a different community called the Welcomed Consensus, and 127 00:09:56,210 --> 00:10:00,570 Speaker 2: this person taught her the Welcome Consensus is stroking practice 128 00:10:00,610 --> 00:10:05,770 Speaker 2: which was called deliberate orgasm, and it's essentially a man 129 00:10:06,330 --> 00:10:09,050 Speaker 2: stroking a woman's clitteress in a way that is meant 130 00:10:09,170 --> 00:10:11,850 Speaker 2: to not just provide sexual pleasure, but also be a 131 00:10:11,890 --> 00:10:17,490 Speaker 2: sort of meditative, shared connective experience. So she joins this 132 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:20,530 Speaker 2: group for several years. She also studied a little bit 133 00:10:20,610 --> 00:10:23,930 Speaker 2: with the group that preceded it, a group called Morehouse. 134 00:10:24,130 --> 00:10:27,650 Speaker 2: Both of these groups were selling courses on deliberate orgasm, 135 00:10:27,850 --> 00:10:32,450 Speaker 2: and they're both based in California and a little bit 136 00:10:32,610 --> 00:10:35,210 Speaker 2: closer to what you might imagine like a kind of 137 00:10:35,290 --> 00:10:38,930 Speaker 2: hippie commune. Like there's a male leader, they have a compound, 138 00:10:38,970 --> 00:10:41,250 Speaker 2: everyone lives together, and there's a lot of like free 139 00:10:41,250 --> 00:10:44,570 Speaker 2: flowing sex among the members. In one of them, they 140 00:10:44,610 --> 00:10:47,170 Speaker 2: even had a farm and grew vegetables and raised chickens 141 00:10:47,170 --> 00:10:50,410 Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. And when she's at these groups, 142 00:10:50,410 --> 00:10:54,050 Speaker 2: she learns the basics of this stroking practice, and she 143 00:10:54,250 --> 00:10:57,290 Speaker 2: learns a little bit of how you could run a 144 00:10:57,290 --> 00:11:00,970 Speaker 2: community based on this practice. But she pretty quickly decides 145 00:11:01,330 --> 00:11:03,050 Speaker 2: if she's going to do this, she's going to make 146 00:11:03,090 --> 00:11:04,770 Speaker 2: it her own thing. And she does a few things 147 00:11:04,770 --> 00:11:08,170 Speaker 2: that are pretty important. One, she puts herself a woman 148 00:11:08,290 --> 00:11:09,850 Speaker 2: as the leader, which I think helps a lot with 149 00:11:09,890 --> 00:11:13,530 Speaker 2: the public image, makes it seem more approachable and trustworthy. 150 00:11:13,650 --> 00:11:15,810 Speaker 1: Yeah, buy women for women, that kind of thing. 151 00:11:15,890 --> 00:11:21,170 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And she rebrands it as orgasmic meditation, which 152 00:11:21,210 --> 00:11:24,850 Speaker 2: is very smart because it quickly and immediately positions it 153 00:11:24,890 --> 00:11:29,850 Speaker 2: as part of this spiritual adjacent wellness movement which is 154 00:11:30,050 --> 00:11:31,730 Speaker 2: just taking off at the time. It's in the mid 155 00:11:31,770 --> 00:11:32,410 Speaker 2: two thousands. 156 00:11:32,610 --> 00:11:35,570 Speaker 1: Yeah, but the noun is meditation, right, Orgasmic is just 157 00:11:35,650 --> 00:11:37,570 Speaker 1: a kind of it is just a modifier, a. 158 00:11:37,530 --> 00:11:42,250 Speaker 2: Detail, totally. And you know, even o M. The abbreviation 159 00:11:42,410 --> 00:11:45,810 Speaker 2: for orgasmic meditation is OHM, which you know you might 160 00:11:45,850 --> 00:11:48,810 Speaker 2: hear as a mantra in like the yoga class. The 161 00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:51,850 Speaker 2: basics of OHM, as she defines it, are there's a 162 00:11:51,850 --> 00:11:55,330 Speaker 2: stroker and a strokey. The man strokes the woman in 163 00:11:55,370 --> 00:11:58,930 Speaker 2: this very prescribed manner for fifteen minutes exactly, and during 164 00:11:58,930 --> 00:12:02,250 Speaker 2: those fifteen minutes, the only goal is for both partners 165 00:12:02,410 --> 00:12:07,730 Speaker 2: to reflect on notice, meditate on the sensations in their bodies. So, again, 166 00:12:07,770 --> 00:12:10,450 Speaker 2: for anyone who's done sitting meta that sounds familiar, you 167 00:12:10,530 --> 00:12:13,570 Speaker 2: are generally supposed to not have any particular goal other 168 00:12:13,610 --> 00:12:14,290 Speaker 2: than to notice. 169 00:12:14,370 --> 00:12:17,250 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's familiar in some ways. In other ways, it's 170 00:12:17,330 --> 00:12:17,770 Speaker 1: very new. 171 00:12:18,650 --> 00:12:20,650 Speaker 2: In other ways it's very different. And to be clear, 172 00:12:20,690 --> 00:12:23,730 Speaker 2: that man stays clothed and the woman generally gets disrobed 173 00:12:23,890 --> 00:12:26,050 Speaker 2: from the waist down. And then the last thing she 174 00:12:26,090 --> 00:12:28,010 Speaker 2: does is she makes it a startup. You know, she's 175 00:12:28,050 --> 00:12:30,530 Speaker 2: based in San Francisco in the mid two thousands. She 176 00:12:30,650 --> 00:12:33,970 Speaker 2: is just at the right time to be framing this 177 00:12:34,570 --> 00:12:38,290 Speaker 2: pursuit as a startup and she's the founder and like 178 00:12:38,330 --> 00:12:40,930 Speaker 2: it's a fast growing company because all around her in 179 00:12:40,970 --> 00:12:43,370 Speaker 2: San Francisco that's exactly what other people are doing and 180 00:12:43,370 --> 00:12:44,690 Speaker 2: they're seeing lots of success. 181 00:12:45,010 --> 00:12:48,850 Speaker 1: That's very interesting because yeah, thirty years prior, if we 182 00:12:48,850 --> 00:12:51,090 Speaker 1: were the nineteen seventies, this would be a commune right, 183 00:12:51,330 --> 00:12:53,570 Speaker 1: it would look like a cult. It might even describe 184 00:12:53,610 --> 00:12:56,490 Speaker 1: itself as a cult. You'd have a guru. But no, 185 00:12:56,490 --> 00:12:59,490 Speaker 1: now it's a startup. We're just through the dot com bubble. 186 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:03,050 Speaker 1: Google is I think has just floated. Facebook is about 187 00:13:03,050 --> 00:13:06,130 Speaker 1: to be launched. You know, it's that moment, and yeah, 188 00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:08,690 Speaker 1: startup energy. Love it and she calls it one taste 189 00:13:08,690 --> 00:13:09,370 Speaker 1: white that. 190 00:13:10,130 --> 00:13:14,970 Speaker 2: Well, one taste comes from a Buddhist saying, which is 191 00:13:15,010 --> 00:13:18,050 Speaker 2: something along the lines of, just as the ocean has 192 00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:22,770 Speaker 2: one taste, the taste of salt, so too does truth 193 00:13:22,970 --> 00:13:26,730 Speaker 2: have one taste the taste of liberation. When they stumble 194 00:13:26,770 --> 00:13:30,330 Speaker 2: across the phrase one taste, I've been told they liked 195 00:13:30,330 --> 00:13:34,130 Speaker 2: it because it's a little suggestive, it's got this Buddhist flair. 196 00:13:34,410 --> 00:13:37,450 Speaker 2: But what's interesting is years later, Nicole is giving a 197 00:13:37,530 --> 00:13:41,730 Speaker 2: lecture to her students and she actually proposes an alternative 198 00:13:41,770 --> 00:13:44,970 Speaker 2: reading of the name one taste, where she says, you know, 199 00:13:45,330 --> 00:13:47,250 Speaker 2: there's a reason we call it one taste, which is, 200 00:13:47,930 --> 00:13:50,890 Speaker 2: once you get one taste of what it's like to 201 00:13:50,970 --> 00:13:54,850 Speaker 2: live this way, there's some part of you that will 202 00:13:54,890 --> 00:13:57,730 Speaker 2: never rest again, and basically, some part of your soul 203 00:13:57,770 --> 00:14:00,650 Speaker 2: will always come crawling back you know. To me, that 204 00:14:00,690 --> 00:14:03,930 Speaker 2: suggests that she understands that part of what she's selling 205 00:14:04,130 --> 00:14:07,170 Speaker 2: is this hook, is this sense of like, you're gonna 206 00:14:07,170 --> 00:14:08,770 Speaker 2: love it so much, You're gonna let me control you. 207 00:14:09,450 --> 00:14:12,690 Speaker 2: I found it a very revealing and foreshadowing moment. 208 00:14:13,090 --> 00:14:17,010 Speaker 1: Yes, one taste is enough. Yes, goodness me. Well, after 209 00:14:17,050 --> 00:14:20,050 Speaker 1: the break we will find out just what Nicole expected 210 00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:29,570 Speaker 1: from the people fewili in we're back. I am talking 211 00:14:29,610 --> 00:14:35,170 Speaker 1: to Ellen Hewitt, the author of Empire of Orgasm. Ellen, 212 00:14:35,970 --> 00:14:39,730 Speaker 1: we talked about the way that Nicole they don't had 213 00:14:39,850 --> 00:14:41,850 Speaker 1: this kind of startup energy. It didn't look like a 214 00:14:41,850 --> 00:14:44,450 Speaker 1: normal cult, but they did have a kind of compound, 215 00:14:44,490 --> 00:14:45,170 Speaker 1: didn't They. 216 00:14:45,170 --> 00:14:47,050 Speaker 2: They did, and it was quite urban. It was in 217 00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:50,890 Speaker 2: San Francisco's Soma District. They had a cluster of several 218 00:14:50,890 --> 00:14:54,090 Speaker 2: buildings on one block in the center of the city, 219 00:14:54,370 --> 00:14:58,490 Speaker 2: one of which was more of their storefront. They had 220 00:14:59,250 --> 00:15:02,250 Speaker 2: a yoga studio where they sometimes held classes that one 221 00:15:02,290 --> 00:15:04,690 Speaker 2: also had for a while a cafe where they sold 222 00:15:05,130 --> 00:15:08,010 Speaker 2: like frozen yogurt, which was a very late two thousand's 223 00:15:08,050 --> 00:15:11,850 Speaker 2: early twenty tens. And they also had a residence down 224 00:15:11,890 --> 00:15:16,890 Speaker 2: the street called the Warehouse, which was their first foray 225 00:15:17,090 --> 00:15:21,050 Speaker 2: into communal living, which ended up being a central tenet 226 00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:23,690 Speaker 2: of life within the One Taste community. You know, you 227 00:15:23,730 --> 00:15:25,610 Speaker 2: could take a few classes and then go on your 228 00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:28,530 Speaker 2: merry way, or if you decided to get more involved 229 00:15:28,530 --> 00:15:31,570 Speaker 2: in the community, as many did, you might leave your 230 00:15:31,570 --> 00:15:34,050 Speaker 2: old job and start working for One Taste in the company. 231 00:15:34,930 --> 00:15:36,890 Speaker 2: And you often moved out of your old home and 232 00:15:36,930 --> 00:15:40,490 Speaker 2: moved into a communal residence. And at its peak, the 233 00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:45,530 Speaker 2: warehouse had enough beds to fit roughly fifty people, keeping 234 00:15:45,530 --> 00:15:48,250 Speaker 2: in mind that each bed would have two people in it, 235 00:15:48,770 --> 00:15:50,650 Speaker 2: and so part of what it meant to live at 236 00:15:50,650 --> 00:15:53,650 Speaker 2: the Warehouse was to kind of immerse yourself in this 237 00:15:54,250 --> 00:16:00,090 Speaker 2: experiment of up close sexuality, not just orgasmic meditation but 238 00:16:00,090 --> 00:16:05,730 Speaker 2: also just sex. And people were assigned bedmates and told 239 00:16:05,850 --> 00:16:08,010 Speaker 2: sort of who to sleep with, and sometimes those bedmates 240 00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:12,130 Speaker 2: would switch around. People would refer to their various sexual partners, 241 00:16:12,170 --> 00:16:14,610 Speaker 2: and they often had multiple at a time as their 242 00:16:14,770 --> 00:16:18,010 Speaker 2: research partners. So there was this sense that life within 243 00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:21,210 Speaker 2: the Warehouse was a grand scientific experiment, and you were 244 00:16:21,250 --> 00:16:24,890 Speaker 2: doing sexual research, you were sexual research pioneers. There were 245 00:16:24,930 --> 00:16:27,610 Speaker 2: not really rooms. There was an enormous hall full of 246 00:16:27,690 --> 00:16:31,650 Speaker 2: beds and a loft space with beds, and the beds 247 00:16:31,650 --> 00:16:35,410 Speaker 2: were simply divided by very thin curtains, so you could 248 00:16:35,490 --> 00:16:39,690 Speaker 2: hear the sounds of everyone else having sex or hanging 249 00:16:39,690 --> 00:16:41,850 Speaker 2: out or doing whatever in the warehouse all the time. 250 00:16:42,410 --> 00:16:45,210 Speaker 2: Even the bathrooms did not have privacy. There was one 251 00:16:45,250 --> 00:16:50,330 Speaker 2: bathroom with a group shower with multiple shower heads and 252 00:16:51,090 --> 00:16:53,530 Speaker 2: two toilets side by side, but no stalls or doors, 253 00:16:54,090 --> 00:16:57,690 Speaker 2: and so people were really confronted with the closeness of 254 00:16:57,730 --> 00:16:59,450 Speaker 2: their neighbors, and for many of them it was actually 255 00:16:59,530 --> 00:17:02,530 Speaker 2: quite an exciting time in which they were living this 256 00:17:02,770 --> 00:17:06,970 Speaker 2: truly unique life that very few other people experience. 257 00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:11,090 Speaker 1: So all these people customers, are they employees? 258 00:17:11,410 --> 00:17:13,410 Speaker 2: It's a good question, because they tended to be multiple 259 00:17:13,490 --> 00:17:16,610 Speaker 2: of those categories. Often people would work for the company, 260 00:17:16,810 --> 00:17:19,610 Speaker 2: usually on the sales team, because that was the main 261 00:17:19,650 --> 00:17:22,090 Speaker 2: way that the company brought in revenue, was by selling 262 00:17:22,570 --> 00:17:26,090 Speaker 2: increasingly expensive courses not just on how to do the 263 00:17:26,130 --> 00:17:29,450 Speaker 2: own practice, but how to live a life aligned with 264 00:17:29,610 --> 00:17:32,530 Speaker 2: the philosophies of OH and how to get in touch 265 00:17:32,570 --> 00:17:36,850 Speaker 2: with this semi divine spiritual force which they called orgasm 266 00:17:36,850 --> 00:17:40,890 Speaker 2: with a capital O. And they would also be customers 267 00:17:40,890 --> 00:17:42,970 Speaker 2: of the company. So they would be taking these classes 268 00:17:43,010 --> 00:17:45,250 Speaker 2: at the same time that they would be selling them. 269 00:17:45,570 --> 00:17:48,450 Speaker 2: And then they were also residents. They would live with 270 00:17:48,970 --> 00:17:53,810 Speaker 2: and around other One Taste practitioners, employees, members, whatever you'd 271 00:17:53,850 --> 00:17:56,490 Speaker 2: want to call them. So there were layers to how 272 00:17:56,530 --> 00:17:59,010 Speaker 2: deeply you would get involved in the company. And One 273 00:17:59,050 --> 00:18:02,690 Speaker 2: Taste's mission was to bring orgasm capital O to a 274 00:18:02,730 --> 00:18:03,410 Speaker 2: billion people. 275 00:18:03,850 --> 00:18:06,730 Speaker 1: Give us a little glimpse of the explositive sales tactics. 276 00:18:06,890 --> 00:18:09,570 Speaker 2: Many people have described to me that the sales practices 277 00:18:09,650 --> 00:18:13,330 Speaker 2: within One Taste were quite predatory, and in part because 278 00:18:13,850 --> 00:18:17,570 Speaker 2: what One Taste was selling was such an intimate experience. 279 00:18:18,410 --> 00:18:21,690 Speaker 2: They often had access to very personal information about their 280 00:18:21,690 --> 00:18:27,130 Speaker 2: customers that people would share during communication games or coaching sessions, 281 00:18:28,050 --> 00:18:31,330 Speaker 2: and many former sales workers have also described to me 282 00:18:31,410 --> 00:18:36,370 Speaker 2: that they would use that personal and sensitive information about 283 00:18:36,690 --> 00:18:40,010 Speaker 2: insecurities or problems that someone might have in their life 284 00:18:40,090 --> 00:18:43,250 Speaker 2: or their marriage, and use that information to then sell 285 00:18:43,290 --> 00:18:45,650 Speaker 2: them the next course. So if you knew that, for example, 286 00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:50,410 Speaker 2: someone was insecure about his ability to connect with his partner, 287 00:18:50,890 --> 00:18:53,570 Speaker 2: you might say, oh, well, if you take the Ignited 288 00:18:53,650 --> 00:18:57,050 Speaker 2: Man course for three thousand dollars, that's going to really 289 00:18:57,090 --> 00:19:01,570 Speaker 2: help fix your relationship. And many former sales workers have 290 00:19:01,650 --> 00:19:05,130 Speaker 2: described to me feeling a little icky about using this 291 00:19:05,210 --> 00:19:07,730 Speaker 2: information in that way, but nevertheless doing it because they 292 00:19:07,810 --> 00:19:11,450 Speaker 2: knew that bringing in good sales numbers was so socially 293 00:19:11,610 --> 00:19:13,130 Speaker 2: rewarded within the company. 294 00:19:14,250 --> 00:19:19,210 Speaker 1: To what extent were they part of the offering to 295 00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:22,650 Speaker 1: other people who Nicole was hoping would sign up. 296 00:19:22,730 --> 00:19:25,330 Speaker 2: If you were a one Taste employee, it was often 297 00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:28,290 Speaker 2: expected that you would put your body on the line 298 00:19:28,330 --> 00:19:31,810 Speaker 2: to advance the company. Let's say One Taste is hosting 299 00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:36,090 Speaker 2: an introduction to own course, and there are men who 300 00:19:36,130 --> 00:19:38,730 Speaker 2: have signed up for the course, but they have not 301 00:19:39,370 --> 00:19:41,850 Speaker 2: come with a partner, and at some point maybe the 302 00:19:41,890 --> 00:19:45,290 Speaker 2: course offers the chance to try the orgasmic meditation practice, 303 00:19:45,290 --> 00:19:48,130 Speaker 2: and these men need a partner. There was this pressure 304 00:19:48,210 --> 00:19:51,330 Speaker 2: for female employees to then step up and be willing 305 00:19:51,410 --> 00:19:55,490 Speaker 2: to be stroked by these customers in order to help 306 00:19:55,530 --> 00:19:59,090 Speaker 2: them have a good experience and potentially hopefully buy more courses. 307 00:19:59,850 --> 00:20:03,130 Speaker 2: And in general, if you were working on the sales team. Again, 308 00:20:03,170 --> 00:20:06,290 Speaker 2: people have told me that there was this implicit understanding 309 00:20:06,370 --> 00:20:11,170 Speaker 2: that you would use this prospect of sex to bring 310 00:20:11,210 --> 00:20:13,210 Speaker 2: in customers. He would flirt with them, you would put 311 00:20:13,250 --> 00:20:14,930 Speaker 2: attention on them if they seemed like they were going 312 00:20:14,970 --> 00:20:16,690 Speaker 2: to buy a course, and if they weren't, then you 313 00:20:16,690 --> 00:20:20,250 Speaker 2: would quickly move on to another target that seemed more ripe. 314 00:20:20,810 --> 00:20:23,490 Speaker 1: This is sex work, but just not being described as 315 00:20:23,530 --> 00:20:26,090 Speaker 1: sex work to the people who are being asked to 316 00:20:26,090 --> 00:20:26,610 Speaker 1: perform it. 317 00:20:26,850 --> 00:20:28,890 Speaker 2: You know, many people have described to me understanding that 318 00:20:28,890 --> 00:20:32,130 Speaker 2: that was the dynamic. And then there were even times 319 00:20:32,170 --> 00:20:38,610 Speaker 2: that sex and finances became even more closely intertwined. In 320 00:20:38,650 --> 00:20:41,690 Speaker 2: the early years at One Taste, the company was struggling 321 00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:46,410 Speaker 2: to turn a profit and cover its expenses, and Nicole 322 00:20:47,370 --> 00:20:49,970 Speaker 2: met this man who was a Silicon Valley investor who 323 00:20:49,970 --> 00:20:51,970 Speaker 2: had plenty of money because he had sold a company 324 00:20:52,010 --> 00:20:55,970 Speaker 2: to Motorola in the two thousands, and he was willing 325 00:20:56,010 --> 00:20:58,930 Speaker 2: to loan the company money pay for some of their 326 00:20:58,970 --> 00:21:03,250 Speaker 2: business expenses, and in return. There were also One Taste 327 00:21:03,330 --> 00:21:06,090 Speaker 2: female employees who were asked to take on the role 328 00:21:06,130 --> 00:21:09,690 Speaker 2: of being his quote unquote handler, which meant living with 329 00:21:09,770 --> 00:21:13,410 Speaker 2: him at his home, doing various housework and giving him 330 00:21:13,450 --> 00:21:15,450 Speaker 2: a sexual service every day, usually a hand job. 331 00:21:16,170 --> 00:21:19,810 Speaker 1: This is not being sold as sex work, either to 332 00:21:20,290 --> 00:21:22,530 Speaker 1: the person paying for the service or to the person 333 00:21:22,570 --> 00:21:26,370 Speaker 1: providing the service. It's kind of being smuggled in under 334 00:21:26,410 --> 00:21:27,090 Speaker 1: some other guys. 335 00:21:27,650 --> 00:21:31,970 Speaker 2: Personal growth is largely the rationale that many of these 336 00:21:32,810 --> 00:21:36,490 Speaker 2: suggestions and actions are taken. It was this idea that 337 00:21:36,610 --> 00:21:40,010 Speaker 2: if you were to do this, you would understand yourself better, 338 00:21:40,090 --> 00:21:43,450 Speaker 2: you would have personal transformation. This was really the goal 339 00:21:43,530 --> 00:21:45,050 Speaker 2: that many people were oriented toward. 340 00:21:45,610 --> 00:21:49,130 Speaker 1: And this links into the idea that actually, the more 341 00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:51,490 Speaker 1: uncomfortable it's making you, the more important it is that 342 00:21:51,490 --> 00:21:53,530 Speaker 1: you do it. Yeah. 343 00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:56,810 Speaker 2: Within one case, there was even a name for that philosophy, 344 00:21:57,250 --> 00:22:02,770 Speaker 2: and it was called aversion practice, which suggested that the 345 00:22:02,770 --> 00:22:06,130 Speaker 2: more that you could do acts that you felt a 346 00:22:06,170 --> 00:22:10,850 Speaker 2: strong aversion to, then the more or spiritual and sexual 347 00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:13,810 Speaker 2: liberation or power you could get by doing them. 348 00:22:14,850 --> 00:22:16,890 Speaker 1: What sort of things were people being asked to do 349 00:22:17,450 --> 00:22:20,530 Speaker 1: under the guise of this being liberating for them. 350 00:22:21,610 --> 00:22:26,330 Speaker 2: For some people, the acts that were suggested or assigned 351 00:22:26,370 --> 00:22:29,650 Speaker 2: to them as part of their personal growth could be 352 00:22:29,730 --> 00:22:33,930 Speaker 2: quite extreme. Like a common example was, oh, your orgasm 353 00:22:33,970 --> 00:22:36,290 Speaker 2: seems kind of blocked up these days. In order to 354 00:22:36,330 --> 00:22:39,890 Speaker 2: release it, you should consider having sex with thirty different 355 00:22:39,930 --> 00:22:42,410 Speaker 2: people over the course of the next thirty days, or 356 00:22:42,530 --> 00:22:45,610 Speaker 2: giving thirty blowjobs to different people. Over the next thirty days, 357 00:22:46,810 --> 00:22:49,730 Speaker 2: several people have described to me receiving assignments like that 358 00:22:50,490 --> 00:22:54,210 Speaker 2: and feeling ashamed if they couldn't go through with it, 359 00:22:54,450 --> 00:22:57,250 Speaker 2: feeling like they had failed if they couldn't complete the assignment. 360 00:22:58,050 --> 00:23:01,690 Speaker 2: And at times if people, especially women, if they turned 361 00:23:01,730 --> 00:23:06,330 Speaker 2: down an assignment to let someone stroke them or something 362 00:23:06,370 --> 00:23:09,490 Speaker 2: like that, they might be shamed for having a quote 363 00:23:09,530 --> 00:23:13,250 Speaker 2: unquote golden pussy, like too precious for people to touch, 364 00:23:13,930 --> 00:23:18,370 Speaker 2: and a version practice, you know, could often leave people 365 00:23:18,370 --> 00:23:22,690 Speaker 2: feeling pretty scrambled about what they did or didn't actually 366 00:23:22,810 --> 00:23:25,090 Speaker 2: want to do, And a lot of people have told 367 00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:28,730 Speaker 2: me just how damaging that was for them and how 368 00:23:28,810 --> 00:23:31,930 Speaker 2: deeply difficult it was for them to undo that thinking 369 00:23:32,010 --> 00:23:33,170 Speaker 2: after they had left the company. 370 00:23:33,530 --> 00:23:36,090 Speaker 1: So why did people find it so difficult to leave? 371 00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:44,250 Speaker 2: The main reason is that it quickly became their whole lives. 372 00:23:44,410 --> 00:23:51,250 Speaker 2: It was their place of employment, their home, their social community, 373 00:23:51,850 --> 00:23:54,930 Speaker 2: and beyond that, their church, their sense of connection to 374 00:23:54,970 --> 00:23:58,650 Speaker 2: the divine, their entire orientation. You know, for many of 375 00:23:58,650 --> 00:24:00,410 Speaker 2: these people, it just became their whole world. Like there 376 00:24:00,410 --> 00:24:03,010 Speaker 2: were plenty of people within one taste who struggled with 377 00:24:03,770 --> 00:24:08,050 Speaker 2: their families and friends really rejecting or feeling like their 378 00:24:08,170 --> 00:24:10,490 Speaker 2: new life path was a bad choice. You know, that 379 00:24:10,530 --> 00:24:13,330 Speaker 2: tends to lead people to isolate themselves from their previous 380 00:24:13,530 --> 00:24:17,770 Speaker 2: social networks. And on top of it, people within one Taste, 381 00:24:17,770 --> 00:24:23,130 Speaker 2: we're taught that this path of orgasmic spiritual enlightenment, once 382 00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:26,690 Speaker 2: you pursued it, if you left it, you would be 383 00:24:27,010 --> 00:24:30,410 Speaker 2: deeply unfulfilled in a permanent way. People have described to 384 00:24:30,490 --> 00:24:34,490 Speaker 2: me fearing that they would be spiritually ruined if they 385 00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:38,530 Speaker 2: abandoned this path that they were on. And you get 386 00:24:38,570 --> 00:24:39,930 Speaker 2: a sense of it when you think back to that 387 00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:41,970 Speaker 2: thing that Nicole said, some part of your soul will 388 00:24:41,970 --> 00:24:43,210 Speaker 2: always come crawling back. 389 00:24:44,050 --> 00:24:47,170 Speaker 1: I think we understand that the strength of this cult 390 00:24:47,330 --> 00:24:51,930 Speaker 1: like atmosphere, but what is kind of bizarre is the reach. 391 00:24:52,610 --> 00:24:57,890 Speaker 1: So after about ten years of about twenty thirteen, Nicole 392 00:24:57,970 --> 00:25:01,890 Speaker 1: is opening up home houses across the US and preparing 393 00:25:01,970 --> 00:25:04,450 Speaker 1: to host this huge conference, and she's kind of treated 394 00:25:04,450 --> 00:25:05,050 Speaker 1: like a rock star. 395 00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:08,210 Speaker 2: I'll give Nicole credit. She has pulled off a marketing 396 00:25:08,250 --> 00:25:10,810 Speaker 2: feat that I think many people would fail at, which 397 00:25:10,850 --> 00:25:16,970 Speaker 2: is making orgasmic meditation an inherently confronting practice that many 398 00:25:16,970 --> 00:25:21,370 Speaker 2: people don't feel comfortable doing, making it a quasi mainstream 399 00:25:21,530 --> 00:25:27,610 Speaker 2: wellness practice endorsed by Tim Ferriss, Chloe Kardashian, and Gwyneth Paltrow. 400 00:25:27,650 --> 00:25:30,490 Speaker 2: I mean, these are the biggest well Gwyneth Paltrow especially, 401 00:25:30,490 --> 00:25:33,450 Speaker 2: it is like the biggest name in wellness. The vast 402 00:25:33,450 --> 00:25:38,130 Speaker 2: majority of us seek intimacy, connection, a sense of belonging, 403 00:25:38,170 --> 00:25:41,090 Speaker 2: like a better understanding of our relationships and our sexual lives. 404 00:25:41,330 --> 00:25:44,730 Speaker 2: And because it's a little taboo, there aren't that many 405 00:25:44,770 --> 00:25:48,130 Speaker 2: places that we can go to for advice or guidance, 406 00:25:48,810 --> 00:25:50,650 Speaker 2: and One Taste was willing to go there. They were 407 00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:56,090 Speaker 2: willing to say, like, if you want to understand your sexuality, 408 00:25:56,130 --> 00:25:57,810 Speaker 2: we have something that is going to help you. And 409 00:25:58,090 --> 00:26:01,610 Speaker 2: for many people who might struggle with performance anxiety during sex, 410 00:26:02,090 --> 00:26:04,050 Speaker 2: or maybe they're in a long relationship and the physical 411 00:26:04,090 --> 00:26:07,050 Speaker 2: spark is gone, or maybe they're one of the estimated 412 00:26:07,050 --> 00:26:09,330 Speaker 2: ten to fifteen percent of American women who struggle to 413 00:26:09,330 --> 00:26:12,410 Speaker 2: have an orgasm, all of these people there's this yearning 414 00:26:13,170 --> 00:26:16,290 Speaker 2: and so they were really willing to maybe go to 415 00:26:16,370 --> 00:26:18,330 Speaker 2: some lengths in order to pursue it. And I think 416 00:26:18,370 --> 00:26:20,370 Speaker 2: that's part of why One Taste was so successful. 417 00:26:20,530 --> 00:26:22,530 Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole idea of like, are we going to 418 00:26:22,530 --> 00:26:26,890 Speaker 1: bring orgasm to a billion people? I'm absolutely sure that 419 00:26:26,930 --> 00:26:29,090 Speaker 1: more than a billion people know what orgasm already is, 420 00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:32,690 Speaker 1: but obviously not orgasm with a capital own. But the 421 00:26:33,690 --> 00:26:39,170 Speaker 1: rebranding of what is fairly basic human practice as being 422 00:26:39,250 --> 00:26:43,250 Speaker 1: something super kind of complicated and refined and you are 423 00:26:43,250 --> 00:26:46,170 Speaker 1: going to need to pay for our help and to 424 00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:48,890 Speaker 1: join our community in order to tap into this thing 425 00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:51,170 Speaker 1: that actually most people could do for themselves is a 426 00:26:51,250 --> 00:26:53,410 Speaker 1: very clever trick, and people were willing to pay a lot, 427 00:26:53,490 --> 00:26:54,770 Speaker 1: I mean really a lot, right. 428 00:26:54,770 --> 00:26:59,210 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Some of the most expensive intensive courses that 429 00:26:59,290 --> 00:27:02,970 Speaker 2: One Taste sold cost more than thirty thousand dollars, and 430 00:27:03,090 --> 00:27:05,490 Speaker 2: at some point One Taste was even selling a package 431 00:27:06,010 --> 00:27:08,770 Speaker 2: called membership which cost sixty thousand dollars, which meant that 432 00:27:08,770 --> 00:27:11,330 Speaker 2: you could take any One Taste course you wanted over 433 00:27:11,330 --> 00:27:13,650 Speaker 2: the course of a year, or even at some point 434 00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:16,570 Speaker 2: they were selling three years of membership in a package 435 00:27:16,610 --> 00:27:19,490 Speaker 2: called Lineage, which cost one hundred and eighty thousand dollars, 436 00:27:19,890 --> 00:27:21,570 Speaker 2: and there were people who bought it, Like there were 437 00:27:21,610 --> 00:27:26,410 Speaker 2: people for whom access and closeness to nicole or feeling 438 00:27:26,410 --> 00:27:29,450 Speaker 2: like they were really making a big gesture of dedication 439 00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:32,210 Speaker 2: to their spiritual path. They were willing to fork over 440 00:27:33,170 --> 00:27:35,090 Speaker 2: tens of thousands of dollars to do that. 441 00:27:35,450 --> 00:27:37,570 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that some people are lucky enough that they've 442 00:27:37,610 --> 00:27:40,770 Speaker 1: got that much money to waste, but other people they're 443 00:27:40,810 --> 00:27:44,010 Speaker 1: going to crowdfunding websites, they presumably going into debt. 444 00:27:44,130 --> 00:27:46,010 Speaker 2: Yes, that was a big part of it. Is that 445 00:27:46,970 --> 00:27:50,770 Speaker 2: many people told stories of Rachel Cherwitz, the longtime head 446 00:27:50,770 --> 00:27:53,730 Speaker 2: of sales at One Taste, telling them, Oh, you want 447 00:27:53,730 --> 00:27:55,370 Speaker 2: to take this course, you don't have the money, Come 448 00:27:55,410 --> 00:27:57,490 Speaker 2: with me. I'll show you how to open a new 449 00:27:57,530 --> 00:28:00,090 Speaker 2: credit card, like you can get ten thousand dollars right away. 450 00:28:00,410 --> 00:28:02,930 Speaker 1: Is this like some startups that you know, everybody who 451 00:28:02,970 --> 00:28:05,370 Speaker 1: was involved at the beginning became incredibly rich. Did the 452 00:28:05,530 --> 00:28:07,650 Speaker 1: staff see any other money? No? 453 00:28:09,090 --> 00:28:10,730 Speaker 2: You know, One Taste managed to make it as a 454 00:28:10,770 --> 00:28:13,570 Speaker 2: business for a while, in part by selling these extremely 455 00:28:13,650 --> 00:28:17,490 Speaker 2: expensive courses. Nicole did sell her shares in the company 456 00:28:18,090 --> 00:28:22,810 Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen for about twelve million dollars. By some 457 00:28:22,930 --> 00:28:26,090 Speaker 2: standards within Silicon Valley, it's on a huge exit. Maybe 458 00:28:26,090 --> 00:28:27,930 Speaker 2: some of what she wanted was money, but a lot 459 00:28:27,970 --> 00:28:31,170 Speaker 2: of what she wanted was control and just the position 460 00:28:31,210 --> 00:28:32,210 Speaker 2: of being at the top. 461 00:28:32,130 --> 00:28:35,930 Speaker 1: Whether she wanted money or whether she wanted control. It 462 00:28:36,050 --> 00:28:40,370 Speaker 1: was all about to come crashing down because a PR 463 00:28:40,450 --> 00:28:45,450 Speaker 1: agency sent a pitch to a certain Ellen Hewitt asking 464 00:28:45,490 --> 00:28:49,010 Speaker 1: if they'd be interested in writing about this very exciting 465 00:28:49,050 --> 00:28:52,410 Speaker 1: woman business leader. And we're going to find out how 466 00:28:52,450 --> 00:29:01,210 Speaker 1: that unfolded. After the break, we are back and I'm 467 00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:07,130 Speaker 1: speaking to Ellen Hewitt, the author of Empire of Orgasm. So, Ellen, 468 00:29:07,890 --> 00:29:12,570 Speaker 1: you published your Thirst article on the company in June 469 00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:15,970 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. So what happened at that point? 470 00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:20,450 Speaker 2: After that peace ran, One Taste went into a bit 471 00:29:20,490 --> 00:29:24,410 Speaker 2: of a hibernation, Like they stopped offering classes, they closed 472 00:29:24,450 --> 00:29:27,650 Speaker 2: them in their centers. A couple months after the article 473 00:29:27,730 --> 00:29:30,130 Speaker 2: ran is the first time that I heard from sources 474 00:29:30,210 --> 00:29:35,370 Speaker 2: that the FBI was knocking on their doors asking them, Hey, 475 00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:37,610 Speaker 2: can we talk about what happened at One Taste? We 476 00:29:37,610 --> 00:29:41,010 Speaker 2: want to know more. The FBI interviewed people at length, 477 00:29:41,650 --> 00:29:45,170 Speaker 2: came back to them, came back with assistant US attorneys, 478 00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:50,850 Speaker 2: and then eventually in twenty twenty three, the federal government 479 00:29:51,050 --> 00:29:56,650 Speaker 2: charged Nicole and Rachel trwoit's her second in command, with 480 00:29:56,770 --> 00:30:01,090 Speaker 2: a federal crime forced labor conspiracy. This was honestly a 481 00:30:01,090 --> 00:30:03,130 Speaker 2: pretty big shock, both for me as well as for 482 00:30:03,170 --> 00:30:05,570 Speaker 2: the community of One Taste people like. It was never 483 00:30:05,650 --> 00:30:09,050 Speaker 2: clear whether the FBI investigation would lead to an indictment, 484 00:30:09,730 --> 00:30:10,290 Speaker 2: but it did. 485 00:30:10,370 --> 00:30:13,610 Speaker 1: It's an interesting indictment as well, because the idea of 486 00:30:13,650 --> 00:30:16,410 Speaker 1: forced labor, I mean, I guess is the question to 487 00:30:16,450 --> 00:30:19,650 Speaker 1: what extent was it forced? It wasn't physically forced, it 488 00:30:19,690 --> 00:30:23,250 Speaker 1: wasn't really financially forced. It was the psychological mechanisms that 489 00:30:23,290 --> 00:30:24,690 Speaker 1: were providing the coersion. 490 00:30:25,850 --> 00:30:29,170 Speaker 2: Yes, that question would become kind of the central question 491 00:30:29,290 --> 00:30:33,170 Speaker 2: of the trial which took place this past summer in Brooklyn. 492 00:30:33,770 --> 00:30:37,170 Speaker 2: And yeah, the question of forced labor conspiracy is a 493 00:30:37,210 --> 00:30:42,050 Speaker 2: thorny one because conspiracy means that two or more people 494 00:30:42,170 --> 00:30:45,370 Speaker 2: conspired to commit a crime. And then the crime itself 495 00:30:45,490 --> 00:30:50,090 Speaker 2: that's being alleged is forced labor, which within the federal 496 00:30:50,130 --> 00:30:55,210 Speaker 2: statute means roughly that you have obtained the labor of 497 00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:59,330 Speaker 2: someone using an unlawful means. And one of these potential 498 00:30:59,370 --> 00:31:03,930 Speaker 2: unlawful means is through serious harm or threats of serious harm, 499 00:31:04,210 --> 00:31:11,450 Speaker 2: and serious harm can be defined as physical, but also psychological, financial, reputational, 500 00:31:12,130 --> 00:31:15,370 Speaker 2: And this is where it gets complicated. Yes, the central 501 00:31:15,410 --> 00:31:18,810 Speaker 2: question within the trial, which took place over five or 502 00:31:18,810 --> 00:31:21,170 Speaker 2: six weeks in New York, and I was there most days. 503 00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:24,690 Speaker 2: In like, watching Rachel and Nicole in the courtroom. 504 00:31:24,530 --> 00:31:29,530 Speaker 3: Must have been electrifying atmosphere, fascinating and a reporting experience 505 00:31:29,570 --> 00:31:33,050 Speaker 3: that I feel grateful to have gotten to witness, and 506 00:31:33,090 --> 00:31:36,130 Speaker 3: also quite an emotional one to watch people go up 507 00:31:36,170 --> 00:31:40,290 Speaker 3: and take the stand in front of Nicole and testify 508 00:31:40,410 --> 00:31:43,170 Speaker 3: under oath that they felt that she had set up 509 00:31:43,210 --> 00:31:45,650 Speaker 3: a system that had abused them very seriously. 510 00:31:46,290 --> 00:31:50,810 Speaker 2: They said they felt like it was a predatory, exploitative company. 511 00:31:51,530 --> 00:31:54,850 Speaker 2: Some of them called it a dangerous sex cult. And 512 00:31:55,090 --> 00:31:56,930 Speaker 2: also many of the people in the stand talked about 513 00:31:56,970 --> 00:32:00,650 Speaker 2: how at the same time it was complicated that they 514 00:32:00,690 --> 00:32:02,570 Speaker 2: had learned a lot from one taste, that they had 515 00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:06,570 Speaker 2: felt at times deep affection for and gratitude for their 516 00:32:06,650 --> 00:32:11,090 Speaker 2: experience there. It was certainly not a simple thing, and 517 00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:15,370 Speaker 2: one of the central questions that was debated hotly between 518 00:32:15,570 --> 00:32:19,610 Speaker 2: the prosecutors in the defense was is it forced? Could 519 00:32:19,650 --> 00:32:24,450 Speaker 2: they simply have left? And yeah, I really feel for 520 00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:28,290 Speaker 2: the witnesses who tried to explain that it's pretty complicated, 521 00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:30,730 Speaker 2: you know. The defense would try to grill them and 522 00:32:30,770 --> 00:32:33,490 Speaker 2: say like, well, were you chained to a desk? Did 523 00:32:33,490 --> 00:32:35,570 Speaker 2: you have a gun to your head? And they would say, well, no, 524 00:32:36,090 --> 00:32:39,610 Speaker 2: like physically I could have walked away. At the same time, 525 00:32:40,330 --> 00:32:43,770 Speaker 2: they felt that the philosophies and the teachings of One 526 00:32:43,810 --> 00:32:47,330 Speaker 2: Taste were so overpowering that they were not really able 527 00:32:47,370 --> 00:32:50,490 Speaker 2: to freely say no, and therefore they were not really 528 00:32:50,530 --> 00:32:52,250 Speaker 2: freely able to say yes. In fact, there was a 529 00:32:52,250 --> 00:32:55,330 Speaker 2: witness who really put out that exact framework. He said, 530 00:32:55,690 --> 00:32:58,770 Speaker 2: he believes that if you're not freely able to say no, 531 00:32:58,890 --> 00:33:01,210 Speaker 2: then you cannot freely say yes, and you cannot consent. 532 00:33:01,890 --> 00:33:03,090 Speaker 1: What did the jury decide? 533 00:33:03,250 --> 00:33:06,370 Speaker 2: After five weeks, the jury decided unanimously that Nicole and 534 00:33:06,490 --> 00:33:10,410 Speaker 2: Rachel were guilty of this crime, and the very next 535 00:33:10,490 --> 00:33:13,930 Speaker 2: day there was a bail hearing in which the judge 536 00:33:14,650 --> 00:33:17,730 Speaker 2: essentially revoked bail. You know, during the two years ahead 537 00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:20,290 Speaker 2: of the trial, Nicole and Rachel had been free on bail, 538 00:33:20,610 --> 00:33:25,050 Speaker 2: and after the conviction, the judge reversed that decision and 539 00:33:25,050 --> 00:33:29,170 Speaker 2: the two women were taken into custody right then and there, Yeah. 540 00:33:28,810 --> 00:33:30,290 Speaker 1: Which they did not seem to expect. 541 00:33:30,490 --> 00:33:32,890 Speaker 2: I have to say, I was surprised and when the 542 00:33:32,970 --> 00:33:37,090 Speaker 2: officers walked into the courtroom there was a noticeable sense 543 00:33:37,130 --> 00:33:39,930 Speaker 2: of shock. Yeah, the two women were let out a 544 00:33:40,010 --> 00:33:42,570 Speaker 2: side door and they've been in a federal jail ever since. 545 00:33:43,650 --> 00:33:46,690 Speaker 1: What about the members of One Taste who have been 546 00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:47,970 Speaker 1: left behind? What are they doing? 547 00:33:48,090 --> 00:33:52,890 Speaker 2: Yeah? One Taste continues to offer courses. They now go 548 00:33:52,970 --> 00:33:56,130 Speaker 2: buy the name aeros platform at times, and some of 549 00:33:56,130 --> 00:34:00,490 Speaker 2: their courses are online. Nicole is even or I should say, 550 00:34:00,530 --> 00:34:04,570 Speaker 2: Nichole's social media accounts continue to post content even though 551 00:34:04,570 --> 00:34:07,850 Speaker 2: she is behind bars, in part because she continues to 552 00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:11,690 Speaker 2: have a devoted, loyal following who is interested in continuing 553 00:34:11,730 --> 00:34:13,850 Speaker 2: to spread her word even if she cannot. 554 00:34:14,690 --> 00:34:17,450 Speaker 1: One of the things I find how fascinating about this 555 00:34:17,690 --> 00:34:22,130 Speaker 1: is the question of what a cult actually is. And 556 00:34:22,570 --> 00:34:25,130 Speaker 1: in your book you write a key quality of a 557 00:34:25,210 --> 00:34:28,730 Speaker 1: cult is its ability to adapt with the times. So 558 00:34:28,770 --> 00:34:29,690 Speaker 1: tell me more about. 559 00:34:29,490 --> 00:34:32,410 Speaker 2: That, you know, the word cult can be a useful 560 00:34:32,410 --> 00:34:36,690 Speaker 2: shorthand for suggesting to people a group that demands a 561 00:34:36,730 --> 00:34:39,570 Speaker 2: lot of you, or has an overarching belief system and 562 00:34:39,570 --> 00:34:42,930 Speaker 2: a charismatic leader. At the same time, I do try 563 00:34:42,930 --> 00:34:46,690 Speaker 2: to suggest to people to step away from the idea 564 00:34:46,890 --> 00:34:50,370 Speaker 2: of categorizing groups in a binary of cult or not 565 00:34:50,370 --> 00:34:54,290 Speaker 2: a cult, and rather looking at groups and understanding what 566 00:34:54,770 --> 00:34:57,570 Speaker 2: cult dynamics exist or don't exist within them. So you 567 00:34:57,650 --> 00:35:01,890 Speaker 2: might have like a high demand religious group that has 568 00:35:01,930 --> 00:35:05,210 Speaker 2: like seventeen out of twenty basic cult characteristics, and then 569 00:35:05,250 --> 00:35:07,730 Speaker 2: a mission driven startup that might have like four or five, 570 00:35:09,250 --> 00:35:11,450 Speaker 2: trying to say one's a cult once not it's like, well, 571 00:35:11,490 --> 00:35:14,570 Speaker 2: it's actually helpful to understand which qualities they have. And 572 00:35:14,610 --> 00:35:17,130 Speaker 2: then when it comes to cults adapting with the times, 573 00:35:17,290 --> 00:35:20,170 Speaker 2: we might have in our heads a pretty outdated idea 574 00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:23,530 Speaker 2: of what a cult looks like, you know, bearded male leader, 575 00:35:23,890 --> 00:35:27,730 Speaker 2: rural homestead, all of its members like wearing clothes of 576 00:35:27,770 --> 00:35:31,810 Speaker 2: the same color, Like that did exist. There's a reason 577 00:35:31,850 --> 00:35:34,690 Speaker 2: we have that image. And yet if we're not aware 578 00:35:34,810 --> 00:35:37,530 Speaker 2: that cult dynamics can show up in vastly different forms 579 00:35:37,570 --> 00:35:39,810 Speaker 2: today and are likely to show up in even more 580 00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:43,130 Speaker 2: unexpected forms in the future, we're going to be blind 581 00:35:44,010 --> 00:35:47,570 Speaker 2: to noticing where these dynamics show up. One of the 582 00:35:47,610 --> 00:35:49,690 Speaker 2: things that really surprised me this year was I was 583 00:35:49,690 --> 00:35:53,730 Speaker 2: working on a piece about people who fall into delusional 584 00:35:53,810 --> 00:35:58,610 Speaker 2: and occasionally even psychotic relationships with chat GPT, where they 585 00:35:58,610 --> 00:36:00,530 Speaker 2: spend hours a day speaking with a chatbot, and they 586 00:36:00,610 --> 00:36:03,010 Speaker 2: end up coming to a belief that they have made 587 00:36:03,010 --> 00:36:06,010 Speaker 2: some momentous discovery, like they've awoken the chatbot, or they've 588 00:36:06,130 --> 00:36:09,730 Speaker 2: connected with spirit guides through the chatbot. And I was 589 00:36:09,730 --> 00:36:13,090 Speaker 2: shocked and then kind of not shocked at how many 590 00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:16,010 Speaker 2: cult dynamics show up in these relationships where people believe 591 00:36:16,290 --> 00:36:20,610 Speaker 2: they have access to special and divine knowledge and new 592 00:36:20,610 --> 00:36:24,770 Speaker 2: purpose and admission they are isolating themselves from their friends 593 00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:26,450 Speaker 2: and family in order to spend more time talking with 594 00:36:26,490 --> 00:36:29,050 Speaker 2: the chatbot. You know, someone even described it as a 595 00:36:29,050 --> 00:36:32,290 Speaker 2: cult of two. I just want people to be aware 596 00:36:33,570 --> 00:36:37,650 Speaker 2: that our social world is shifting and cults are going 597 00:36:37,690 --> 00:36:40,810 Speaker 2: to shift with it. It just really might not look 598 00:36:40,850 --> 00:36:41,770 Speaker 2: like what you expect. 599 00:36:42,130 --> 00:36:46,090 Speaker 1: Speaking of cults, Zappo's the shoe retailer was sometimes called 600 00:36:46,330 --> 00:36:48,970 Speaker 1: a cult, and it was quite striking to see Tony 601 00:36:49,010 --> 00:36:51,970 Speaker 1: Shea pop up in your book. We recently did a 602 00:36:52,010 --> 00:36:55,090 Speaker 1: two part caution details about Tony Shea and how tragedy 603 00:36:55,210 --> 00:36:57,530 Speaker 1: that all went. Tony was I think a possible mark 604 00:36:57,570 --> 00:36:59,810 Speaker 1: they were hoping that would get funding from Tony Sheha, 605 00:36:59,890 --> 00:37:01,970 Speaker 1: and actually it sounds like he was probably the right 606 00:37:02,050 --> 00:37:03,170 Speaker 1: kind of person for them to pick. 607 00:37:03,290 --> 00:37:07,570 Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, they somehow got winned that 608 00:37:07,970 --> 00:37:12,890 Speaker 2: Tony shea was maybe open to learning more about orgasmic meditation. 609 00:37:13,210 --> 00:37:16,610 Speaker 1: He's got money, he's into community, he's into happiness. He's 610 00:37:16,650 --> 00:37:17,890 Speaker 1: the guy totally. 611 00:37:18,210 --> 00:37:21,970 Speaker 2: They actually ended up sending a few employees to go 612 00:37:22,050 --> 00:37:25,250 Speaker 2: live in Las Vegas and set up an entire Las 613 00:37:25,370 --> 00:37:28,970 Speaker 2: Vegas One Taste office, pretty much with the main goal 614 00:37:29,170 --> 00:37:32,490 Speaker 2: of winning over Tony. Say, and there's a woman who 615 00:37:32,530 --> 00:37:34,650 Speaker 2: was an employee at One Taste who is in the 616 00:37:34,650 --> 00:37:37,570 Speaker 2: book and who has also testified about this. Her main 617 00:37:37,610 --> 00:37:40,130 Speaker 2: assignment in going to Las Vegas was to find a 618 00:37:40,130 --> 00:37:42,810 Speaker 2: way to meet Tony, get introduced to him, and try 619 00:37:42,810 --> 00:37:45,730 Speaker 2: to win him over. And she even describes Tony seemed 620 00:37:45,730 --> 00:37:48,930 Speaker 2: interested in ome. He also seemed interested in her, and 621 00:37:49,090 --> 00:37:52,090 Speaker 2: he made a sexual advance toward her, And even though 622 00:37:52,130 --> 00:37:56,330 Speaker 2: it maybe wasn't what she would have wanted to do freely, 623 00:37:56,450 --> 00:38:00,290 Speaker 2: she acquiesced and they had a short sexual relationship because 624 00:38:00,850 --> 00:38:03,130 Speaker 2: she understood that this was part of her job as 625 00:38:03,170 --> 00:38:05,530 Speaker 2: potentially winning him over. In the end, he did not 626 00:38:06,210 --> 00:38:08,930 Speaker 2: choose to have a public association with Ohm or to 627 00:38:09,130 --> 00:38:12,570 Speaker 2: dose in a new way, and they ended up closing 628 00:38:12,650 --> 00:38:15,450 Speaker 2: the Las Vegas office about a year after they started it. 629 00:38:15,850 --> 00:38:18,850 Speaker 1: Well, and at the end of these conversations, I always 630 00:38:18,890 --> 00:38:24,930 Speaker 1: ask my guests what lesson they hope listeners will take away. 631 00:38:25,210 --> 00:38:27,370 Speaker 1: What is the lesson that this story teaches us? 632 00:38:27,730 --> 00:38:30,970 Speaker 2: Often people think I would never join a cult, and 633 00:38:31,010 --> 00:38:34,450 Speaker 2: I think that's a really comforting belief. And of course 634 00:38:34,450 --> 00:38:37,010 Speaker 2: not everyone is equally vulnerable. But if there's something that 635 00:38:37,050 --> 00:38:41,290 Speaker 2: you yearn for and the right person comes along promising 636 00:38:41,330 --> 00:38:43,290 Speaker 2: the right promise at the right time when maybe you're 637 00:38:43,330 --> 00:38:48,370 Speaker 2: a little extra vulnerable, I think people should be humble 638 00:38:48,410 --> 00:38:51,090 Speaker 2: about the idea that it could happen to them. And 639 00:38:51,130 --> 00:38:53,610 Speaker 2: then we're practically speaking, if you find yourself in a 640 00:38:53,610 --> 00:38:56,690 Speaker 2: group where you're wondering if they maybe don't have your 641 00:38:56,730 --> 00:38:59,330 Speaker 2: best interests at heart. I have heard that a good 642 00:38:59,530 --> 00:39:03,290 Speaker 2: rule of thumb is if someone tells you like I 643 00:39:03,370 --> 00:39:05,730 Speaker 2: have the answer to what you're seeking, that's not necessarily 644 00:39:05,730 --> 00:39:07,930 Speaker 2: a problem. But if they say I have the answer 645 00:39:08,010 --> 00:39:11,530 Speaker 2: to what you're seeking and I'm the only one and 646 00:39:11,570 --> 00:39:14,450 Speaker 2: if you do not follow my path you will suffer, 647 00:39:15,370 --> 00:39:17,930 Speaker 2: then you should be concerned. So it's really not just 648 00:39:18,130 --> 00:39:22,490 Speaker 2: the promise of salvation, but the threat of exclusive access 649 00:39:22,530 --> 00:39:23,210 Speaker 2: to the salvation. 650 00:39:23,690 --> 00:39:26,210 Speaker 1: My rule of thumb is if you're asking yourself, am 651 00:39:26,210 --> 00:39:27,770 Speaker 1: I in a cult? You're in a cult. 652 00:39:29,930 --> 00:39:31,250 Speaker 2: You know that's not a bad rule of sun. 653 00:39:32,050 --> 00:39:34,530 Speaker 1: I have another lesson, actually, Ellen, which is that if 654 00:39:34,530 --> 00:39:37,370 Speaker 1: you're in public relations and you are trying to promote 655 00:39:37,410 --> 00:39:41,730 Speaker 1: a slightly sleazy sexual wellness business, do not send your 656 00:39:41,770 --> 00:39:45,850 Speaker 1: pitch to Ellen Hewitt, because she will break you. Ellan Hewitt, 657 00:39:46,690 --> 00:39:48,610 Speaker 1: thank you so much for talking to Couestry Tales. 658 00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:50,090 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 659 00:39:50,810 --> 00:39:53,570 Speaker 1: It's been amazing to talk to you. And Ellen. Your book, 660 00:39:53,730 --> 00:39:57,610 Speaker 1: Empire of Orgasm is available wherever good books are sold, 661 00:39:57,850 --> 00:40:01,810 Speaker 1: and you are, of course still a journalist for Bloomberg, 662 00:40:01,930 --> 00:40:03,010 Speaker 1: fighting a good fight. 663 00:40:03,370 --> 00:40:05,690 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much for having me. 664 00:40:10,690 --> 00:40:14,370 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is written by me Tim Harford, with Andrew Wright, 665 00:40:14,650 --> 00:40:18,890 Speaker 1: Alice Fines, and Ryan Dilly. It's produced by Georgia Mills 666 00:40:18,930 --> 00:40:22,570 Speaker 1: and Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original music are 667 00:40:22,610 --> 00:40:27,090 Speaker 1: the work of Pascal Wise. Additional sound design by Carlos 668 00:40:27,130 --> 00:40:31,770 Speaker 1: San Juan at Brain Audio and Dan Jackson Bender. Daf 669 00:40:31,850 --> 00:40:35,730 Speaker 1: Haffrey edited the scripts. The show also wouldn't have been 670 00:40:35,770 --> 00:40:40,170 Speaker 1: possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Greta Cohne, Eric Sandler, 671 00:40:40,690 --> 00:40:47,090 Speaker 1: Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan, Kira Posey, and Owen Miller. Cautionary 672 00:40:47,090 --> 00:40:50,570 Speaker 1: Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like 673 00:40:50,650 --> 00:40:54,730 Speaker 1: the show, please remember to share, rate, and review. It 674 00:40:54,930 --> 00:40:58,090 Speaker 1: really does make a difference to us. And if you 675 00:40:58,170 --> 00:41:01,450 Speaker 1: want to hear it, add free and receive a bonus 676 00:41:01,570 --> 00:41:06,570 Speaker 1: audio episode, video episode, and members only newsletter every month. 677 00:41:06,850 --> 00:41:10,930 Speaker 1: Why not join the Cautionary Club. To sign up, head 678 00:41:10,930 --> 00:41:15,850 Speaker 1: to patreon dot com slash Cautionary Club. That's Patreon, p A, 679 00:41:16,010 --> 00:41:21,130 Speaker 1: t R, e o N dot com Slash Cautionary Club