1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:11,239 Speaker 1: Thing from my Heart Radio. When Russian opposition leader and 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: fierce Putin critic Alexey Navalny fell violently ill on a 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: flight in August of two twenty, it was suspected he 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: was poisoned by Novachuk, a Soviet era nerve agent. He 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: was medically evacuated to Berlin and fell into a coma, 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: but miraculously survived. My guests today, filmmaker Daniel Roar and 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: investigative journalist Christo Grotzev, were at the center of the 9 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: unfolding drama that resulted in the gripping documentary naval Me. 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: The film documents the quest to identify those responsible for 11 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: the poisoning and the plight of Alexey Navalny, whose anti 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: corruption platform landed him in a Russian prison where he 13 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: remains to this day. More poisoned. Putn't supposed to be 14 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: not so stupid to use this navy chalk. If you 15 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: want to kill someone, just shoot him. Jesus christ, It's 16 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: impossible to believe it. It's kind of stupid. The whole 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: idea of poisoning with a chemical weapon. What the fuck. 18 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: This is why this is so smart, because even reasonable people, 19 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: they refused to believe like what come on poisoned seriously. 20 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: Prior to Navalny, Daniel Roar directed the feature documentary Once 21 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: We're Brothers Robbie Robertson and the Band about the rock group. 22 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: He also shot and directed several short docks and has 23 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: been nominated for multiple Canadian Screen Awards. Roar has been 24 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: developing his craft since a young age. He spent a 25 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: year at scared the Savannah College of Art and Design, 26 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: but found his passion in a high school film class 27 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: at the Tobaco School of the Arts in Toronto. We 28 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: had this fabulous film teacher. He was like a sort 29 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: of coromogene e cool nice guy and he was very 30 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 1: same Mr Johnson Kevin, and uh I was. He had 31 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: this film class, and so I had a little cohort 32 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: of film friends. We called ourselves the Man Clan, and 33 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: the joke was we were not manly at all. We 34 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: were a bunch of film nerds and we would just 35 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: This was when DSLRs became a thing, So about ten 36 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: years ago or fifteen years ago, you could buy a 37 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: little DSLR for seven or eight hundred dollars and you 38 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: could get a shallow depth of field, an image that 39 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: looked like a movie. And to me, at seventeen years old, 40 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: that was revelatory. And so my friends we'd run around Toronto. 41 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: We we once had the subway system shut down by 42 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: accident setting off smoke alarms. My dad still gives me 43 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: a hard time for the time I set off the 44 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: smoke alarm in his house when we were seventeen or eighteen. 45 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: But being creative, making movies, making things, and it all 46 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: started for me in in a tobacoa fabulous school that 47 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: I was able to attend when I was a teenager. 48 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: And when you went to SCAD because I love SCAT 49 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: and SCATS like a lot of these schools who over 50 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: the arc of my lifetime, you know, many decades now 51 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 1: they have you know, raised the money and grown so significantly. 52 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: And uh, you know SCAD, when you go down there 53 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: to Savannah, they've taken over half the town. You know, 54 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: every available building they bought and have incorporated into that program. 55 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: And you went there for just one year and not 56 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: even a full year. I went there for about a year. Um, 57 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: I was in Savannah for one year and amazing place, 58 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: super cool talent. I'm not a school guy, and it 59 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with that school. It's just that 60 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: no matter what Kevin Johnson imparted to you know, you 61 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: were done. I was finished. Kevin Johnson mic drop. That 62 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: was it with keV. That that was it. I learned 63 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: everything you needed to know from Kevin. From Kev's film class. Mr. 64 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: Johnson's film class, I learned everything I needed to know. 65 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: And I decided that I wanted to make documentaries and 66 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:57,839 Speaker 1: the best way to do that would be to just 67 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: make documentary. Why documentaries? Documentaries where this art form that 68 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: for me existed at the confluence of all these things 69 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: I was interested in. I was very curious about traveling 70 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: and seeing the world in history and art and culture 71 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: and filmmaking, cinematography, editing, but also music and drawing, animation, painting. 72 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: For your parents in the arts they had, they were 73 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: in retail, the Schmata business. My mom and dad had 74 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: a clothing store called Higher Ground and Higher Ground for 75 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: Kids in Toronto for about thirty thirty five years, and 76 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: so my dad sold out aware like North Faced Patagonia, Archaracs, Canada, 77 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: Goose and so we were always the spirit of travel 78 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: was something that we was always imparted onto. My brother 79 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: and I would go on canoe trips in Algonquin Park 80 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: as as as teenagers and as kids, and so I 81 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: always had the sense of traveling and getting out into 82 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: the world was something really important and valuable. And and 83 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: my dad has a bunch of corny phrases that he 84 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: always says that are just foundational to my life, and 85 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: one of them is travel off the beaten path. And 86 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: certainly that's the choice I chose when I dropped out 87 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: of school and tried to pursue other things. Now the 88 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: film is out. The film is going to be released 89 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: in eight cinemas around the US on April eleven and twelve. 90 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: And this is obviously extraordinarily exciting for all of us. 91 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: That's a lot of screens for a doc and and 92 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 1: certainly Warner Brothers, who were so grateful is distributing the film, 93 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: understands the critical mission of getting this film out now 94 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. When did you first become aware 95 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: of navalmy I've been aware of NAVALNY for a few 96 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: years now, just because I'm I'm interested in Russia and 97 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: Russian politics and geopolitics is something that I'm interested in 98 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: and and if you're in the West and you're interest 99 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: in Russia and Navalny's name is unavoidable. But certainly my 100 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: interest in him peaked in the summer of when news 101 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: circled around the world that he had been poisoned. And 102 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: I remember vividly this three day struggle when he was 103 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: in this hospital in Siberia and the authorities weren't letting 104 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: him leave, and there was this weird behavior happening, and 105 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: something strange was going on, a weird thing, that they 106 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't let him go, they wouldn't let him go to Germany, 107 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: and eventually they did. They relented. He he was in 108 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: there a little longer. I think. I think, so sink 109 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: in or fade out. Um the German couldn't detect and 110 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: so um. That was in my consciousness. At no point 111 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: did it ever cross my mind at that stage that oh, 112 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: I should go make a movie about this guy. It 113 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: never would have entered my my plane of reality. Well, 114 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: it just I was sitting in Toronto painting an apartment. 115 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: I just didn't occur to me. It wasn't until I 116 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: was sitting next to this man, Crystal Grozev, who's here 117 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: with us today that I thought, oh, maybe we should 118 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: go make a film about this, Maybe we should go 119 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: pursue that. This is the same way with all of 120 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: even your earlier shorter films. You do the one about 121 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: sex abuse, but from the priest stuff up in the 122 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: indigenous people's prolific sex offender and Canadian history. As I made, 123 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: the name of the film is Survivors, Row Survivors because 124 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: his name is Row. The man's name is Ralph Roe, 125 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: who was the Anglican minister that had this little prop 126 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: plane and he would fly up to these communities and 127 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: everyone adored him. He was like this this whizard missionary 128 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: fly in and everyone thought it was great. And he'd 129 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: take the kids on camp trips, but only the boys. 130 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: And it turned out that he was one of the 131 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: most insidious criminals in Canadian history. Was he abused hundreds 132 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: of thousands of boys. And so I, when I was 133 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: one or twenty two, made a short film with this 134 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: extraordinary film producer in Toronto called Peter O'Brien, and we 135 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: made a film about this man's crimes. Was in his 136 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: idea and he hired you two directors right when when 137 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: I was twenty one, and uh, that that film made 138 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: a little bit of noise. People saw it, and I 139 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: think it was very significant as a tool for the 140 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: community to heal and and have and have that um 141 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: but it was, you know, very challenging, and we've since 142 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: entered a different place in Canada. I don't know that 143 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: that's a film I would have directed now. I think 144 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: that we would be much better suited finding one of 145 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: the many indigenous filmmakers to tackle that story. But in 146 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: that moment you feel sensitive about that, well, very much, 147 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: of course, absolutely. I think now it's very important we 148 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: have to think about who gets to tell what story. 149 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: When I made that movie, I had no consciousness of 150 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: that That's not something that was on my radar. It 151 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: was only years later later that I reflected on it 152 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: and questioned whether or not I was the right guy 153 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: to tell that story. And the film was successful and 154 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: I think the community was appreciative that I made it. 155 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: But I think now I would I would really question that, 156 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: and I would really seek community consultation. It's complicating to 157 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: note that you're you know, when you talk about your 158 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: career in the brief minutes we've been talking now, you 159 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: lose sight of the fact of how young you are, 160 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: you know, so it was we we tell the audience 161 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: that you're twenty nine years old, Thank you very much. 162 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: He's go on Hollywood football now he's full flag Hollywood now, 163 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: the twenty eight year old Daniel. You don't realize that 164 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: you have been doing this for years now and this 165 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: inclusivity diversity thing has unfolded most vividly during those ten years, 166 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: during your career, your lifetime. Absolutely, and especially in Canada, 167 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: our consciousness about the vital necessity of which communities get 168 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: to tell which stories has has really come to the front. 169 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,599 Speaker 1: It's something that I'm mindful of, as you know, a 170 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: Jewish kid that grew up in Toronto. It's something that 171 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: I really have to think about. My view was, you know, 172 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: it's it's the success of an individual filmmaker's career leads 173 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: them to where they are today. There's films you're making 174 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: now that people are benefiting from their learning about the world. 175 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: Documentary films can often be the beachhead for people to 176 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: understand the topic, to understand events in history beyond books 177 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: and beyond classroom learning. Documentaries have become tools for learning. 178 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: And I say to myself, the guy that's directing Navalny. 179 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: Let's let's be grateful for his roots and how he 180 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: got to where he has. But anyway, I'd like to 181 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: just shift for a second, because we do have our 182 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: other guests here. Crystal Grozev. You sit there and you 183 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: see that Navalny is going to come back to Moscow, 184 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: and you go, why why does he come back to Moscow? 185 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: Knowing he must have known what the potential was. He 186 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 1: seems to be being charged with embezzlement all the time, 187 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: and and and the charges dropped, and he runs from 188 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: mayor and gets the vote, which is significant but not 189 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: anything earth shattering. But he but he's got a political following. 190 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: I want you to take me through this line of 191 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: right before he's poisoned, where is he, what he's doing. 192 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: We're gonna try you for embezzlement, and then we suspend, 193 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: we don't do this, we don't do this, and then 194 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: we poison you. Take me through what's going on with 195 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: Putin the Russians in Navani before he's going to get poisoned. Well, 196 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: what we found out actually is that they tried to 197 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: poison him years earlier. So they started tailing him. This 198 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: whole unit of the Russian security service to the FSB 199 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: that comprises not only political police like the scary muscle guys, 200 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: but also chemical weapons specialists within the FSB and doctors 201 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: within the FSB. Saw a killed team, a poisoned team. 202 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: They started telling him the moment he announced his bid 203 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: for the presidency that was in two thousand seventeen, and 204 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: they tailed him on a total of sixty six trips 205 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: around the country throughout his whole campaign. So every little 206 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: village we visited, they were there. They stayed in hotels 207 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: near him. They usually arrived just ap of hours before 208 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: he arrived or were left just after he left. So 209 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: they were there waiting for a sign off from apparently 210 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: putting for him to be whacked, to be killed. But 211 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: this didn't come for years, or maybe it did come. 212 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: What they don't know is maybe they tried. But Moscow 213 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: four is the phrase that comes out in this film, 214 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: and people who see it will know that it's it's 215 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: a it's a sort of a cold word for Russia's 216 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: incompetence at the official level. So it could be that 217 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: they tried earlier to poison him but didn't work out. 218 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: So the only thing we see is that in July, 219 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,479 Speaker 1: just a month and a half before the actual Coma poisoning, 220 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: the same team followed him and his wife to their 221 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: getaway to a Baltic coast in Russia, in the in 222 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: the Clino Gradkneberg, and apparently they tried to poison them 223 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: there again because we see his wife falling almost into 224 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: a comma because she experienceds similar symptoms to what he 225 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: did them on the wrong people eating the custard. Is 226 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: that the problem with the KGB or the FSP, Well, 227 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: they're just not great at poisoning. They're not they're not great, 228 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: I mean they but they try again when they have. 229 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: What they lose in competence, they make up in resilience, 230 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: So they do it. The years later, they keep trying, 231 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: They keep trying. They tried it twice on another politician 232 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: who lives here, actually Vladimir Kamos up same poison tis here. 233 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: They poisoned him there, he came back here because his 234 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: family lives here. He decided to go back for a 235 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: campaign trips. Six months later poisoned him again. So they tried. 236 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: They tried many times, not just once. So why that 237 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: moment in time, It's the wrong question, because maybe they 238 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: tried for four years and that was just the one 239 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: time that they made enough sort of dozeage into get 240 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: into his bloodstream by essentially smearing his underpants. That's what happened. 241 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I went in through him through his 242 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: lower body parts. So he goes to Berlin. He finally 243 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: gets out of there and goes to Germany to get 244 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: treated and he's cured. Navalni, as I see him on 245 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: screen and Daniel's film is crisp and sharp and alert 246 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: and bright eyed and doesn't seem impaired in anyway as 247 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: a figure in the film. And then he it's cured 248 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: and he comes back again. Yeah, Like, like who around 249 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: him is counseling him? Who is advising him that you 250 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: could stay here and be the leader of an opposition, 251 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: You could tour the world and be the darling of 252 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: the Western world. Very few people would command the same 253 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: resources that Navalni commanded in raising money. He could be. 254 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: It could be like the Clinton Foundation, his foundation and 255 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: raising money for his activities. He could be. He's very 256 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: charismatic and he could carry on his great work. Instead, 257 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: he decides to go home and they put him in 258 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: prison for night. Why does he go home? Why, Well, 259 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: you're preaching to the choir. You're asking the same questions 260 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: that I asked him, And I asked that his why? 261 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 1: He looked at me, like, I'm an idiot? How can 262 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: you ask this question? If I stay here, I just 263 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: become one of the many talking heads that just talk 264 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: to Russians from outside of Russia, and Russians would never 265 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: trust me. Russians would never believe him unless I had 266 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: partaken the daily in their daily misery. And I'm sure 267 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: that people offered him an effective and compelling argument to 268 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: the contrary. I mean, there's a lot of great work 269 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: you could do. What are you gonna be able to 270 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: accomplish from jail for nine years? And then they have 271 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: you that they're going to kill you there? Probably exactly 272 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: we got to that conversation and basically says, you're right. 273 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: If I were a journalist, If I were journalists, I 274 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: would stay here and continue, probably doing a better job 275 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: from here than from there. But I want to be 276 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: a politician. I want to be president one day, and 277 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: I can only do it from there, from prison. From well, 278 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: I asked him, do you realize that you're going to prison? 279 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: He says yes. I asked him, do you think it's 280 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: going to be for a couple of months. He said, no, Christo, 281 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: we don't get it. It It will be years. So he 282 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: was completely open eyed about it. And I asked his wife, 283 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: does she realize that this is going to happen? She 284 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: said absolutely, so, it's a different type of complex could be, 285 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: could be? But what is your opinion? Why did he 286 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: go back? I mean, I'm sure you share some of 287 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: the same opinions he does. I think fundamentally, what Alexei 288 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: was not comfortable with was the idea and notion of instructing, 289 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: of telling, encouraging the Russian people to take to the streets, 290 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: to go up against the regime, to risk getting arrested. 291 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: He was not comfortable saying those things, commanding those things, 292 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: encouraging those from a Parisian hotel, from a Parisian hotel, 293 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: from Ville, news from Berlin, from Vienna. If you want 294 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: to be the moral leader of a nation, which is 295 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: the role he currently occupies, talk is cheap. You have 296 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: to be shoulder the shoulder, and you have to be there. 297 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: And I think that what he is doing, his courage 298 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: and bravery, hopefully will be an inspiration to the Russian people. 299 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: And I think that's why he went back. But is 300 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: it something that we grapple with and struggle with to 301 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: this day. Absolutely, was it the right decision? I don't know, 302 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: but that was between Alexey Navalny and his higher power, 303 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,359 Speaker 1: and that's the decision he made, and his family's lockstep 304 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: with him. But it's obviously something that we struggled with. 305 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: And I was like, I remember I was making the movie, 306 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: and I was hoping that we would get some sort 307 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: of uncertainty, some semblance of insecurity about the decision or 308 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: the process. The veneer of fear. The man's constitution was ironclad. 309 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: He never let on that he was afraid. He'd say, oh, 310 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: Daniel Jesus Christ, of course I have to go back. 311 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: What am I going to do sit in Germany? Forget it? 312 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: But I would imagine, I understand what you're saying. I mean, 313 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: I understand his commitment, but I wonder if it's going 314 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: to be easier to poison him. I mean, is he 315 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. In the United States, we live in a 316 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: place where people are fatigued by scandal, they are fatigued 317 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: by by what I call the conspira noiak mentality. Well, 318 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: I would not be comfortable equivocating the Volni with Epstein 319 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: for obvious reason. No, no, no, But I'm saying in 320 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: terms of he's he's a sitting duck in a prison. 321 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: Get the guy in prison. If you want to whack 322 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: and put him in prison. You know where he is. 323 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: You control his movements. He is in the cutsody of 324 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: the same man who tried to murder him. Christa, what 325 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: do you think, Well, just remember that what happened to 326 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: the previous guys that tried to murder him. They're dead 327 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: now or one of them is most likely, right, the 328 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: guy that, yes, the guy that the ones that failed 329 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: so that they kill you. Well, basically they said, have 330 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: you sit down with the bowl of poison? So why 331 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: would the new guys trying to say to you give 332 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: me that poison left? Do you remember the scene, the 333 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: Marquee scene in our film when Alexey eight makes a 334 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: few phone calls I guess an extraction of confession, Remember 335 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: that part. I don't want to ruin the film from now. 336 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: Of course, there's drama in this film, unlike any other 337 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: doc I've seen in recent memory. Well, so we know 338 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: that some of the individuals who were fooled, well, The 339 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: whole point is there was a set of FSB officers 340 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: who had given the task to kill Navalni. They failed, 341 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: but they lived in with the belief that their government, 342 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: their president, their crook president, will protect them from publicity, 343 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: from that publicity, from neighbors taking revenge on them. That 344 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: didn't work out. These guys that tried to kill them 345 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: are now negative celebrities. They all of Russian knows their faces. 346 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: Their neighbors spray painted their their elevator with like our 347 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: our neighbor is a killer. Because they were fact totals 348 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: of the because they were murderous emissaries of this government, 349 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: or because they're actual fans of Navalni or both. No, 350 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: because the neighbors actually didn't realize that the government is 351 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: a government of murderers, that their neighbors that work, they 352 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: didn't realize that there were Russians who don't realize that 353 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: Putin is an Ardus. Yes, we're gonna go. We're gonna 354 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: get that in a second. And I do want to 355 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: put a button on what you said. You're very right, 356 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: I did. By no means that I mean to be 357 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: equivocate Epstein with a Navalny for obvious reasons, But I'm 358 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: just saying that that seems to be the key. You 359 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: want to get somebody in prison, because then you have 360 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: complete control over where they go, what they do. There's 361 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 1: more opportunities to kill them. So he wants to be 362 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: a part of things. He's willing to suffer. He's willing 363 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: to take on the horrible consequences to come back and 364 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: one day hopefully get out of prison. Do people view 365 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: Nivalny as a viable political candidate if he wasn't in prison, 366 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: if they weren't trying to poison him all the time? 367 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: Does he have any chance to become the president of Russia? 368 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: I think he does. For years, the people who doubted 369 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: him were twofold. One of one part of Russia that 370 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: didn't like him were fed with propaganda deities, an embezzler, 371 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: so they just alway just a crow that just wants 372 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: to get some of the government money. And another part 373 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: thought that he is a government proxidy, that he's actually 374 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: a fake full position figure, that he's very venient for 375 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: for Putin because straw man, because it's strawman that doesn't 376 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: have a chance to get into the presidency. Therefore he's 377 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: an easy one. But after the poisoning and especially after 378 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: the film, and honestly, any Russian who's seen the film 379 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: sees him as a viable presidential candidate. And that's why 380 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 1: I think this film has a big future for changing 381 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: minds and hearts in Russia. And that's why I think 382 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: and I know that Putin is so upset with the film, 383 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: not with the investigation so much, not with Navandi so much, 384 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: but with the film because people who see the film 385 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: see him as a valuable candidate. What did they say, 386 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: navalni embezzled. I think they said that he stole donations 387 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: from his from his foundation. But what we have to 388 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: understand is they have a menu of stuff they just 389 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: make up, like the Russian judicial system. That what do 390 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: they accuse him? They accused him. I think there was 391 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 1: taking money from profit he stole. Originally they said that 392 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: he stole lumber and some sort of commodities, and then 393 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: he stole money from the nonprofit. It's nonsense. He and 394 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: he insulted a war veteran. That's a crime. Just weird, 395 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: wacky whatever they can come up with things. And and 396 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: he and and he was given suspended sentences for two 397 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: of these inbeztlement charges. Why why didn't they dump him 398 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: in the prison then, Well, the first time I think 399 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: it was in twenty during his run for mayor of Moscow. 400 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: He was sentenced to five years in prison. But the 401 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: day of his sentence, tens of thousands of people came 402 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: out to the streets in protest, and I think that 403 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: rattled the regime and they said, we cannot we don't 404 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: want to deal with So with the response in public 405 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: is uh, full throated enough. If there's a lot of 406 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: people out there making noise about him, I'm going to 407 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: assume then on a public relations level, Navalny is a 408 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: problem for Putin. Well, he is, But what changed with 409 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: Navalni Navanni made it the big problem for Putin. His 410 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: Putin had to take much more drastic measures after he 411 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: returned from Germany than before. He had to silence the 412 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: islands of free media completely. He had to crush the 413 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: people coming through the streets with force, beat old women, 414 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: drag young kids in hoards to to detention centers, and 415 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: that closed a gap, that closed the valve. But but 416 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: it actually allows the pressure to increase now because these 417 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: people can go to the streets, but they have it 418 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: inside them that this anger, so it's a problem for 419 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: put in Daniel Roar and Crystal grot Sev. The subject 420 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: of another Daniel Roar documentary was Robbie Robertson. Robertson was 421 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: also a guest on Here's the Thing. Check out our 422 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: episode with the legendary musician. We ended up recording the 423 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: basement tapes. I don't know, there's something like a hundred 424 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,239 Speaker 1: and forty songs or something in the course of this. 425 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: And what we would do is every day we would 426 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: go to Big Pink, We'd have some coffee, play some checkers. 427 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: Bob would write. He wrote on a typewriter, so he 428 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: would type something up. We'd go down into the basement, 429 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: grab everybody, grab whatever instrument was close. Might even not 430 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: be the one you play anything. Because there was no rules. 431 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: We'd sit on we'd mess around, play through a tune 432 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: and we'd say, wow, that felt kind of good to hear. 433 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: More of my conversation with Robbie Robertson go to Here's 434 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 1: the Thing dot org. After the break, Daniel Roar and 435 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: Crystal Grote tell the story of how they convinced Alexei 436 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: Navalny to allow his life to be filmed. I'm Alec 437 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. The documentary 438 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 1: film Navalny was shot prior to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. 439 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: And while there is no shortage of condemnations to be 440 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: leveled against the Kremlin, I wanted to know what they 441 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: feel is the most significant criticism of Vladimir Poo and 442 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: his regime. Well, it's corruption. It's really corruption. The one 443 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: keyword that everybody in the understands is a driving away 444 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: value from their daily life. They see the wealth of 445 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: the elite that has nothing to do with with what 446 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: a normal Western elite would have, and then a elite 447 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: for people to understand in the timeline that elite began 448 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: to accrue on a more concentrated level. Since when that's recent, 449 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: isn't it in the last twenty years. Well, there's always 450 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 1: been people who profit it from not like in this country, 451 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: from war profit here, etcetera. But but but it seems 452 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: to me like there's an oligarchical suffice here that's bigger. Now. 453 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: Suffice it to say that the oldigarchicle layer our buddhis 454 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: school Buddhis and Judo Buddhis and like college buds of Putin, 455 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: so they came through him. They're actually holding does increased 456 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: dramatically during Putin's really absolutely I think before that you 457 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: didn't have as much of this. Well we had a 458 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: couple of oligarchs and some of them, but not like now. Yes, 459 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: so that that is the one criticism that is exploited 460 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: by somebody like like Navali because it's easy to point 461 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: out than as visible. And one of all the would 462 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: say if you were here is that every single issue 463 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: in Russia, it's it's foundation is in corruption, and if 464 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: we can tackle corruption, we can start to heal the society. 465 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: But out there's one thing I want to speak to Earlier, 466 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: you asked Christo quite a pointed question, and that's whether 467 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: or not Alexey actually has a reasonable chance of ever 468 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: becoming president. And one thing I asked him the same question. 469 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: I was like, dude, are you like delusional? Like how 470 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: how is this actually gonna happen? And what he spoke 471 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: to was the Moscow mayoral race and why that is 472 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: an interesting case study is because he started that race 473 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: with two percent of the vote. People didn't like them. 474 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: They caricatured him as just a blogger, and some wacky 475 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: Internet guy, and he finished with of the vote. It 476 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: wasn't a fair election. There was malfeasance. He narrowly avoided 477 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: a runoff, and I think the Kremlin, who let him 478 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: run an election, was so nervous about his performance. He 479 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: ran an American style campaign. He was kissing babies, knocking 480 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: on doors in the subways, distributing literature, tens of thousands 481 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: of volunteers. There has never been a political organization in 482 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: Russia like that. They were afraid. I don't know if 483 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: the guy will be president, but what I hope, at 484 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: the very least is that he will have the chance 485 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: to compete in the democratic election. Whether the Russian people 486 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: elect him is up to their own agency, is up 487 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: to the Russian electorate. I just hope, I dream for 488 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: a future he can run in this country. You have 489 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: people who voted for a candidate in two thousand and 490 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: sixteen and again in two thousand and twenty. Who does 491 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: what a lot of conservatives do, which is they give 492 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: them a lot of predigested pablem about what the conditions 493 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: are in this country. You know, that's what Fox News is. 494 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: There's people that need their news pre digested. Is it 495 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: the same in Putin's Russia. Is it like America? Meaning 496 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: does this Putin enjoy the support like Trump of a 497 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: massive number of poorly informed people. These are the lazy, informational, 498 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,479 Speaker 1: lazy people. They they are fine, which is getting their 499 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: news from late night State TV, which is the equivalent 500 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: of Fox here, which is pre masticated, pre pre chewed, 501 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: and they don't have time, patients, or interest in getting more. 502 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: This would be about sixty percent of the population. Another 503 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: would be the people who always doubted everything and would 504 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: consider both sides to any debate to be bad guys, 505 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: because in Russia, that's how they grew up, being disappointed 506 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: by the political elite through through centuries and then or 507 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: the younger guys who are actually interested in information actively. 508 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: What changed with the Navali poisoning and the protests after 509 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: that is that this there was the disinterested. They actually 510 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: became interested and they figured out finally that Putting is 511 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: the bad guy here. But they were afraid to go 512 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: out to the streets. So that but that's still progress, 513 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: because that doesn't make them uninformed. They just made them 514 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: makes them afraid. But the one other thing I want 515 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: to speak to, which is piggy back and alf of 516 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: what Crystal just said. I think it's true that a 517 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: large majority of the country is being spoon fed this 518 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: state media, but I don't think it is totally the 519 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: agency of the people. It's like there's literally a vacuum 520 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: of information. It's impossible to obtain if you're living in 521 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: the middle of the country, if you're not saving and 522 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 1: so absolutely, it's a totally different dynamics, a different dichotomy, 523 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: and it just really needs to be understood that in 524 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: Russia you cannot access other points of view, other information 525 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: unless you're a super savvy person who knows how to 526 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: use VPNs and who knows how to get around censorship. 527 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: I disagree with it because even before this censorship was introduced, 528 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: there were islands of free media there. You could get 529 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: to Twitter, you could get to Facebook. People are just 530 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: too lazy. The six people just don't want to do that. 531 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: I want to note for our listeners, this is the 532 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: first moment where Daniel and Questa are in disagreement. Let's 533 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: mark this in the script. But this is what we 534 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: always dream of on these shows. Now, how did you first? 535 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you investigated the poisoning and you did a 536 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: lot of work writing about it and exposing the poisoning, correct, 537 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: you know, without giving a company's secrets if you will, 538 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: and proprietary information. How do you go about that? Like, 539 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: how does that begin? How did how did that begin? 540 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: For you describe in vague terms when you start calling 541 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: it never starts with that investigation. It always starts with 542 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: a previous investigation that you've learned something that you keep 543 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: it at the back of your mind and it comes 544 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: handed later. So what happened in this case? We investigated 545 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: the poisoning of remember the Scriptles, the former Russian double 546 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: spy who went to to the UK and the Russian 547 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: military intelligence tried to poison him with Novi schock in 548 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: Salisbury in two thousand eighteen. So we had investigated this, 549 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: we had cracked this crime. We found out where the 550 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: poisoners had taken their physical poison, their Novi chock, and 551 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: this turned out to be a particular institution in Russia. 552 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: And we're not giving too much away, but it's a 553 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: lab that we discovered and presumed is giving poison to 554 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 1: anybody who needs it, like any government agency who's who 555 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: wants to kill somebody gets the poison from there. So 556 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 1: we decided to trace those guys from that institute, from 557 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: that lab and see with whom they talked in the 558 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: days before Navalny was poison And that's how we find 559 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: and how do you find that? Well, that's the beauty 560 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: of this crazy Russian corrupt system. Because Russia is corrupt 561 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: and dictatorial. The government wants to have information on anybody 562 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: at any given time, so they gather all this information 563 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: on you, and that informations for saying that information is 564 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: for sale because it's corb because Putin cannot survive if 565 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't allow his FSB under links to actually make 566 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: money on on selling whatever. Some of them are vulnerable, 567 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: some of them are probably like you exactly. They usually 568 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: sell this to criminals. And suddenly here comes journalists who 569 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: are it's taking a bit of the I've got these 570 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: voicemails from Navalni. How much you want to give me 571 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: the come on, two roubles, Come on, you're joking. But 572 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: I had this literal conversation with one of the data 573 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: traders who like getting this data from FSB officers and 574 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: selling it. And when he found out that we are 575 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: actually publishing investigations that he he wrote to me this 576 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: angry email. He said I thought you you were just 577 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: a criminal. You're a journalist. How dare you so? He 578 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: was so upset. Yeah, so that's it's a corrupt system, 579 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: and we exploited the corruption to at the data. Were 580 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: you first met Navalny? Where we first met Navalny in 581 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: the Black Forest, the small town called Saint Blasian in 582 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: on the German French Swiss board And what was necessary 583 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: described for us? I mean, you're a filmmaker and getting 584 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: people to sit down with you in front of a 585 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: camera sometimes that's a pretty herculean feat. Well, that's easy 586 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: to get him in the room or not. That's the 587 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: art of documentary filmmaking is getting in the rooms, being 588 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: in the right place at the right time. Well, I 589 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: think we had the best shot of anyone in the world. 590 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: And the reason that was is we were writing on 591 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: the coattails Christo. Christo came to me one day and 592 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: I was there with my producer, Odessa Rae, one of 593 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: the producers of the film, and Christo and I were 594 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: working on another project that wasn't going well. Christo walks in, 595 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: he says, there's something else and I was like, what's that? Christo? 596 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: He says, you know that Navalny guy. I said, yeah. 597 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: He says, I think I have a lead and who 598 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: tried to poison him? And I go, who's making that movie? Chrystal? 599 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: He goes, I don't know, should I ask? I'm like, yeah, 600 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: you should ask right now. And because of the word 601 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: Crystal had done on the screen pall case, he cracked 602 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: that very famous Russian poison story only a few years earlier. 603 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: Navalny was receptive and Navonne understood that this is a 604 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: guy to be taken seriously. So Crystal reached out. A 605 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: week later, we were sneaking across the German Austrian border, 606 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: which is closed because of the COVID. Where were you 607 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: at the time? We were in Vienna? What were you 608 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: doing there? We were in Vienna in limbo, waiting to 609 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: see if we could go back to another recruited you 610 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: into the the n s A. When you were you 611 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: left scat after you're come on, who recruited you? Come on? 612 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: I mean I just had you'd be in Vienna. You 613 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: can't even joke about that, because the Russians are gonna 614 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: take this interview. They're gonna take your voice saying that 615 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: to me. They're gonna put it on state media and 616 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: they're gonna say, look, here's the evidence alc Baldo knows 617 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: that he works for the joking Vladimir, Literally, it's too late. 618 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: They're gonna take this and they're no, watch it happened, Christas, 619 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: it's gonna happen. You're gonna be on Russian state propaganda 620 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: calling me a CIA asset, even though you were joking. 621 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: This is how these Russians operate. They're like, oh, he 622 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: works for the State Department. He works at the state 623 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: They already said that, and so you joke. But it's 624 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: like I'm here being like, well, they're going to use 625 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: your voice calling me that was a joke. Vladimir on 626 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: the thank you for specifying. I was in Vienna with 627 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: Christo and Odesta. We were working on another project and 628 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: in that former Soviet state it wasn't going well and 629 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: I my life was spiraling. I was bugging out. I 630 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: didn't know if I'd go back to Canada, if I'd 631 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: stick around for a little bit longer. And then he 632 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: walks in and magnificently says, what about Navoni? And a 633 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: week later we were sitting across from Alexey and his 634 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: chief chief investigator, Maria pev chick, and my job was 635 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: to convince them why we needed to make a documentary, 636 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: why we had to start right now. Krysto, what was 637 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,719 Speaker 1: your perspective on that first meeting. He wasn't buying it. 638 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: He was like looking at this kid much younger. He 639 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: didn't believe it, but he allowed to give him a chance. 640 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: And the way we agreed with him is let's let's 641 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: start rolling, and then we decided later because otherwise you're 642 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: missing every moment every day not being recorded, and that's 643 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: what sold the whole project in Navoni. And then a 644 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: week later they were like best of friends, and it 645 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: was I would say best. I have to as a filmmaker, 646 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: I have to just maintain that that, you know, alexey 647 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: Is is an easy guy to hang out with. We 648 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: bonded over our wonkish love of politics and all of this, 649 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: but it's still important that I maintain a critical eye. 650 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: This is a guy who is controversial in his own way, 651 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: who's a complicated and compelling figure, and his complications make 652 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: him compelling. But he and I hit it off and 653 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: we enjoyed spending time together, and I think that's part 654 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: of the reason why we were able to mesh ourselves 655 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: in his cohort so naturally, so quickly. Documentary filmmaker Daniel 656 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: Roar and Belling Cat journalist Crystal grotzev. If you're enjoying 657 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow 658 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing on the I Heart radio app, Spotify 659 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, 660 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: Daniel Roar and Crystal Growths have recount the dramatic final 661 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: moments with Navalni and his family before his heroic return 662 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: to Russia. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's 663 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: the Thing. I asked Daniel Roar and Crystal Grotzep to 664 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: speculate on what is next for Putin amidst the rumors 665 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,240 Speaker 1: of his ailing health. The important thing is that people 666 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: at the top belief that he has cancer, and that 667 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: makes him vulnerable, and that makes them unlikely to follow 668 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: any order that he gives them that endangered their own longevity, 669 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: political longevity. So this is why Putin is not the 670 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: sort of all powerful dictator that he was a year ago. 671 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: Everybody knows that he may have cancer, and this is 672 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: what matters. What did the people inside Russia, think who 673 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: is his likely successor? Is someone teed up because with 674 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: the Russians there's often a likely successor. You know what 675 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: has being the strongest sort of strategic talking point of 676 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: the Kremlin. There's no successor. If not putting, then who 677 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: This is a phrase, the said phrase, it's a vacuum. 678 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: That's why people have actually not looked for a success 679 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: and have sort of embraced this willingness to be the 680 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: president or that's are forever. I don't think the people, 681 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 1: the regular people in the near future will decide who 682 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: the successor's It's going to be still the oligarchs and 683 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: the elite and the generals. And I wonder if at 684 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: some point, because of this war, disagregious war, Navali doesn't 685 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: become a more acceptable alternative to the oligarchs because at 686 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: least with him, they know that he's going to tax 687 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: them of their their wealth, but they're going to preserve 688 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: their lifestyle. And we're putting there. They've lost everything. They 689 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: are not invited to any party at at in London 690 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: or in New York anymore. They can't travel and this 691 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 1: will change if Navali comes to part well, Navali comes 692 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: to power, I mean if Putting, I mean to take 693 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: me through this, because I'm yearning to hear your take 694 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: on this, which is that if let's say, theoretically put 695 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: and drop dead tomorrow, then no chance in Navalni would 696 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: become the president. Then they're not going to hold an election, 697 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: are they. Well, it's going to be chaos and there 698 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: will be somebody who comes in as an interim our guy. 699 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: So what is Navalny's path to the presidency? Even post 700 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: put What's going to happen is a fight internal domestic fight, 701 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: strife among the different groups of the power of lead. 702 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: Putting has made the only claim to fame that he has. 703 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: He has been able to manage these different interests within 704 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: the generals and within the FSB, and once he's gone, 705 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: it will be a fight everybody's against everyone else. And 706 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: this is what has happened in every Western, normal country, 707 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: that is, that is the normal path to actual democracy, 708 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: which just hasn't happened during Russia yet. So I think 709 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: we're going to see a couple of years of terrible 710 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: dictatorship by somebody else that will gradually go into a 711 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: real election at some point. Why is poison the weapon 712 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: of choice in these assassinations. So the first answer is 713 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: that if it works, it is, and it's deniable, you 714 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: don't discover it. Now, in this case, they discovered it, 715 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: but it was not meant to be discovered. So it's 716 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: just a heart attack, right. And the second answers, if 717 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't work, then it's so scary that it actually 718 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,479 Speaker 1: discourages the cent it's it's the worst way to die. 719 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: You hear the shrieks that, the yells of that. You 720 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: don't want to die like that, So they want them 721 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: to suffer. They want yeah, exactly, So this is the 722 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: chemical equivalent of dumb dumb bullets exactly. But it's not new. 723 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: It's not something that put An invented, it's it inherited 724 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: it from the KGB. They love this thing. You may 725 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: remember sometimes it's untraceable, meaning someone's dead and you say, oh, 726 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: it's a heart attack, right, exactly. There was this Bulgarian 727 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: journalist who was killed with a poisoned umbrella, remember in 728 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: the seventies in London. That's what the KGP did. They 729 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: prepared this umbrella with a little pellet that had something 730 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: like novichok and he died. One of my favorite documentaries 731 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: his assassins. We were talking about this before with the 732 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: with the two women I believe are coached because they 733 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: think they're on a game show, because they kill a 734 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: brother by rub the poison in his eyes at the 735 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 1: airport where they're presenting him with some game show surprise. Anyway, 736 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: that that film assassins, which is absolutely numbing. But you think, 737 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: but obviously poison is better than spattering somebody's head against 738 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: the wall in a hotel, even with a silence. But 739 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: the reality is, if you spatter someone's head against the 740 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: wall in a hotel, then you have a as as 741 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: one of the characters in the film says, a body 742 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: with hole in it. That you have to explain. If 743 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: Alexey died on that plane, as the Russian government intended, 744 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 1: an autopsy would have been carried out by the criminalistics institute. 745 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: The same guys school poisoned him. So it's really the 746 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: perfect crime. Are either of you, are you worried about 747 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: your own safety or were you ever worried about your 748 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: own safety during the production of this film? Absolutely not. 749 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: When you're sitting next to a standing next to Alexey 750 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: and nov only who's the bravest man on the plane 751 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: and his staff who are actually in danger. You know, 752 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: you can't help but feel inspired by their courage and bravery. 753 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: I think the Russians will continue to make efforts to 754 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: discredit the film by coming after me. That's why I 755 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: take it so seriously when we joke about the CIA 756 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: recruitment stuff, because they they will literally take this and 757 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: they will put it on Channel one and they will say, oh, look, 758 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: here's the evidence. He's admitting it. He's he is from 759 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: this agency or that agency, which is nonsense. So I'm 760 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: more concerned about character assassination, you know, them uh, finding 761 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: someone I've never met who said that it makes a 762 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: horrible accusations about me, something like that. That's my concern. 763 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: What do you think, Cristal No, I totally agree with you. 764 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: That will just go after your character. They'll probably send 765 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: some nice girls to sleep with you. What are you 766 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: gonna work on next? You're gonna do in a documentary 767 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 1: about ABA one? I want I want to do something 768 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: that is completely totally different. I have a few things 769 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: in development that I'm apprehensive. I don't want to jink, 770 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: so I'm apprehensive to talk about um. But the most 771 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: documentaries I know have a bunch of pots on the stove. Yeah, 772 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: you have to, you have to, but this one was 773 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: so all consuming, and uh, it's this is a daunting 774 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: one to follow up, as I'm sure you can imagine. 775 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: But I want to make something very soon, and I 776 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: wanted to be totally totally different. But I love making documentaries, 777 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: so I hope I get to make another one now. 778 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: Navalny was the last time you were in his sup pressence? 779 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: When did you last seeking? I can tell you exactly. 780 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: It was January seventeenth in Berlin, Germany, at about one 781 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: thirty in the afternoon. This year, he got in, I filmed, 782 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: I was shooting. He went to prison when filming on 783 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: January seventeenth was the first day he was in car 784 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: Sarty last year, and I filmed him saying that you 785 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: see it in the film. He says goodbye to his colleagues, 786 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: and then we walked downstairs to the car park where 787 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: there are are cars, protective vehicles waiting for him. He 788 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: gets in the car and I didn't I was working. 789 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: I was shooting, so it's not like I could go 790 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: say thank you for so nice to meet you. By 791 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: He understood line you have to keep absolutely and he 792 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: understood that, and I understood that. And as he was 793 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: driving off, I gave him a nod and he gave 794 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: me a nod back, and he was off and you 795 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: never spoke to him. Nothing. Nothing. Well, you've done this 796 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: amazing job, because you have. Certainly I'm not saying this 797 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: to be kind, and I know, I'm I'm, I'm, I'm 798 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: in a long line of people that are saying to you, 799 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: what a remarkable and what a talented filmmaker you are 800 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: thanking a remarkable job with this film showing the world 801 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,720 Speaker 1: who Navalny is, at least who we want to believe 802 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: he is. I'm disappointed that he chose to go to prison. 803 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: And although I understand the Victor and Casablanca kind of code, 804 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: but your film is going to be for many people 805 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: in this country their introduction and their first chance and 806 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: an up close look at Navalny. And and that's something 807 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: that we take very seriously, and it's it's very important 808 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:26,919 Speaker 1: to all of us as many people in the world 809 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: see this film as possible. The reality is Alec that 810 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: Alexey is in peril. He is in a very bad 811 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: spot right now, and the way that you keep him 812 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: alive is by keeping his name in the global consciousness. 813 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 1: Is he allowed to have visitors in prison? He can 814 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: see his wife and his daughter once every three months 815 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: for an hour. This film is going to be widely 816 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 1: available and everyone in the world needs to see it, 817 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: and they need to tell their friends to see it. 818 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 1: Alexey's life depends on it. Thank you both, Thank you, 819 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: director Daniel Roar and journalist Christo grots of Navalny is 820 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: currently in theaters around the world and will premiere on 821 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: CNN TV in North America on April. This episode was 822 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,439 Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our 823 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: engineer is Frank Imperial. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing 824 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: is brought to you by iHeart Radio.