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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a

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Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to

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Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love

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Speaker 1: listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not

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Speaker 1: meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a

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Speaker 1: licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: joining me for session three or two of the Therapy

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Speaker 1: for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our conversation

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Have you ever felt

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Speaker 1: like a total fraud? Maybe you've questioned whether or not

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Speaker 1: you belong or fear there you're not deserving. I definitely have,

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Speaker 1: and so has our guest for today's episode, Doctor Lisa R.

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Speaker 1: Me Austen, is a licensed psychologist with a degree in

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Speaker 1: counseling psychology from Boston College and a PhD in counseling

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Speaker 1: psychology from Columbia University. In our conversation today, doctor Lisa

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Speaker 1: and I break down what exactly imposter syndrome is, why

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Speaker 1: and how self sabotage might show up unannounced to the

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Speaker 1: party that is your life, and why claiming to be

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Speaker 1: a perfectionist is not quite the flex you think it is.

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Speaker 1: Please note that this episode does include reference to sexual harassment.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share it with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: TVG in session, or join us in the sister Circle.

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Speaker 1: To talk more in depth about the episode, you can

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Speaker 1: join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today,

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Speaker 1: doctor Lisa, Thank you so much for having me. I'm

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Speaker 1: happy to be here. So I know that all the

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Speaker 1: incredible work that we see you doing today ultimately started

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Speaker 1: with you leaving a pretty toxic work environment. So can

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Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about the paths too

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Speaker 1: where you are today? Yeah, so I probably had imposter

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Speaker 1: syndrome probably my whole life. It trailed me throughout my

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Speaker 1: educational career, and virtually nothing would make it better. It

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Speaker 1: didn't matter. Sort of the newest admission to a new

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Speaker 1: program or school or opportunity. It always just seemed to

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Speaker 1: be just getting worse. And it probably was at its

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Speaker 1: height after I had finished my PhD program at an

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Speaker 1: Ivy League university and I started a job job it's

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Speaker 1: just started. It was my second job out of school,

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Speaker 1: and I had a really toxic boss. And I had

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Speaker 1: a habit of having toxic bosses. You know, I really

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Speaker 1: was about proving myself, showing I was good enough. If

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Speaker 1: somebody didn't believe I was good enough, it didn't make

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Speaker 1: me want to leave and maybe want to stay more

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Speaker 1: and prove to them than I was good enough. And

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Speaker 1: so I had a real habit of being with toxic bosses.

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Speaker 1: This particular toxic boss was pretty terrible. I was being

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Speaker 1: humiliated in public, and my job was pretty tough. I

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Speaker 1: actually was teaching faculty members how to teach, and if

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Speaker 1: you worked in a university, administrators teaching faculty members how

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Speaker 1: to teach is not their favorite thing in the world.

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Speaker 1: So you really have to really be able to manage

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Speaker 1: your authority and stuff. And he would humiliate me in public,

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Speaker 1: he would embarrass me behind closed doors. He would undermine

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Speaker 1: my thinking around certain things. He was also sexually harassing me.

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Speaker 1: It was really very painful time, and everyone around me

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Speaker 1: was telling me to quit my job, and I just

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Speaker 1: couldn't do it. I just didn't feel like I could

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Speaker 1: get another job, just didn't feel like anybody else would

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Speaker 1: want me. And I had all these impostures in room thoughts.

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Speaker 1: And then after months and months and months of this,

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Speaker 1: we were in a senior staff meeting of all women

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Speaker 1: and there's music playing in the background, and someone asked,

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Speaker 1: what is that music that's playing in the background, and

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Speaker 1: he said, it's music to suthe the savage breast. And

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Speaker 1: in that one moment, I decided I can't do this anymore.

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Speaker 1: I cannot be in an environment where somebody would have

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Speaker 1: the audacity to say straight out to me, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: in control. You're all a bunch of savages. And I

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Speaker 1: just left that office and I called my husband and

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Speaker 1: I said I need to quit this job. And he's like,

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Speaker 1: I've been telling you for months. And I cleared out

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Speaker 1: my office that weekend and that Monday, I quit, no notice,

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Speaker 1: no nothing, And he threatened me. He threatened my career.

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Speaker 1: He said I'd never worked in education again. He tried

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Speaker 1: to hold me from leaving, said the money was encumbered,

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Speaker 1: which means that it was already spent, and then he

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Speaker 1: couldn't use it for anything else. So it was a

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Speaker 1: very painful and dramatic ending to that. But it was

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Speaker 1: a moment which I decided, I'm not living in imposter

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Speaker 1: centrome anymore. It's more than I can handle. I want

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Speaker 1: something different. Thank you for sharing. That does sound like

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Speaker 1: a very difficult experience I wanted, doctor Lisa. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think for a lot of us, we can look

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Speaker 1: at like education, like college in post grade and kind

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Speaker 1: of clearly see side of impassa syndrome. But do you

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Speaker 1: think it was present for you even before then, Like

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Speaker 1: do you remember even childhood, our earlier experiences with it. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I remember it probably as long as I can probably

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Speaker 1: recall my educational experience. And oftentimes we believe the researchers

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Speaker 1: and scholars in the area believe it does start in

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Speaker 1: early childhood, with that childhood dynamics and family dynamics. And

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Speaker 1: so when I was a child, I grew up in

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Speaker 1: a very white suburb in Pennsylvania, and we were pretty

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Speaker 1: much the only family of color. And when I was

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Speaker 1: in about the second grade, I was told there weren't

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Speaker 1: enough seats in the advanced classroom, and that I was

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Speaker 1: going to need to go to the other classroom, which

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Speaker 1: was the classroom where kids were having trouble. And at

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Speaker 1: seven years old, I kind of thought it was odd

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Speaker 1: that I just they couldn't just put another seat in

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Speaker 1: the room. It didn't make sense to me. But clearly,

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Speaker 1: looking back, all these times I was being tracked. I

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Speaker 1: was being put into a classroom which they thought by

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Speaker 1: based on the color of my skin, based on sort

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Speaker 1: of what I was capable of, that I didn't deserve

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Speaker 1: to be in any kind of advanced classroom, and so

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Speaker 1: it was very hard. I've tried many many times to

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Speaker 1: get out of that classroom because I knew that by

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Speaker 1: the time I reached eighth grade, I wouldn't be allowed

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Speaker 1: to prepare for the high school I wanted to go to,

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Speaker 1: which I wanted to go to prep school. They wouldn't

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Speaker 1: let me take the kind of extracurricular training for that,

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Speaker 1: and so I fought really hard, but I was never

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Speaker 1: able to get out, And so very early on I

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Speaker 1: thought probably has been feeling like I wasn't good enough,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't smart enough, I wasn't capable enough that if

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Speaker 1: I had a good moment. It was an accident. It

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Speaker 1: was a moment of fraudulence. So it has probably been

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Speaker 1: with me for a very very long time. So you

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that your husband and also business partner, doctor

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Speaker 1: Richard or be Austin, has been an incredible support to you.

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Speaker 1: But you also have talked about how even in those

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Speaker 1: difficult times it was really hard for you to hear

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Speaker 1: like his encouragement to get out of there would make

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Speaker 1: it so difficult for people struggling with impassit syndrome to

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Speaker 1: kind of really accept that encouragement and supported because it

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel real. It feels like somebody who loves you,

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Speaker 1: and it's not telling you an accurate story about what

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Speaker 1: you're really capable of. I mean, there's a kind of

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Speaker 1: famous saying that he would say to me over and

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Speaker 1: over again. Then I really had trouble internalizing. And he

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Speaker 1: would say, when you work as hard for yourself as

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Speaker 1: you do for others, you're going to be unstoppable. And

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Speaker 1: I just while the words I understood them, I didn't

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Speaker 1: know what he was talking about. I didn't know what

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Speaker 1: he meant. Until all of a sudden I knew what

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Speaker 1: he meant. And so He was always telling me these

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Speaker 1: things that were incredibly useful and helpful, but I didn't

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Speaker 1: know how to use them. I just thought, you know,

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Speaker 1: he has a belief in me that's probably based on

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Speaker 1: how he feels about me. That has nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with accuracy and the real capability that I have. Even

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Speaker 1: though I had tons of evidence that I actually was right,

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Speaker 1: I hadn't internalized any of those things. They all felt

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Speaker 1: like I had gotten them through some false mechanism, and

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Speaker 1: so it was very hard to trust him until I

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Speaker 1: finally realized I had no choice what I had to

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Speaker 1: trust him because the other route was really dangerous for

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Speaker 1: me in a variety of ways. So let us break

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Speaker 1: it all down for people who are joining us to

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Speaker 1: this conversation and talk about what does it mean to

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Speaker 1: have imposterive syndrome? Like, what is the definition of imposter syndrome? Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: imposter syndrome is when you are skilled, qualified, expert, even

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Speaker 1: have credentials, but you haven't internalized them, and as a

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Speaker 1: result of not internalizing them, you then have performance anxiety

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Speaker 1: about the things that you do. That performance anxiety often

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Speaker 1: leads to either self sabotage, where you set yourself up

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Speaker 1: for failure or where you overwork or overfunction to cover

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Speaker 1: this idea that you are actually fraudulent. Once you perceive

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Speaker 1: performance feedback, typically you either like negate or get rid

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Speaker 1: of any positive feedback around your performance, and then if

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Speaker 1: there's any critical feedback about your performance, you hyper focus

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Speaker 1: on it with this idea that you'll never make that

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Speaker 1: mistake ever again, and then you get caught in the

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Speaker 1: cycle all over again. So it's a kind of cyclical

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Speaker 1: thing that begins with a trigger where you're kind of

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Speaker 1: feeling like a fraud that you're not going to enough.

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Speaker 1: And so what are some of the feelings and fears

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Speaker 1: that are associated with it? So you've already talked about it,

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Speaker 1: you know, like nat feeling good enough, feeling like you're

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Speaker 1: an impostor are there other things that you would want

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Speaker 1: to call out for people. Yeah, you often feel that

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Speaker 1: making a mistake or even having a moment of failure

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Speaker 1: feels like exposure, that it's actually showing the true you

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Speaker 1: as opposed to just being human and normal and people

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Speaker 1: make mistakes, you can often feel very kind of focused

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Speaker 1: on other people's performance and kind of overestimating them and

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Speaker 1: underestimating yourself. You can be very perfectionistic, very focused on

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Speaker 1: the only way you can internalize something, as if it's

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Speaker 1: done perfectly. So there are a lot of features. You

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Speaker 1: can also tend to lean toward mentors for just external validation,

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Speaker 1: not the whole full complement of things that a mentor

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Speaker 1: can offer you. You're just focused on whether they think

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Speaker 1: you're doing the right thing. We can be very intellectually inauthentic,

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Speaker 1: so we often don't share what we know because we're

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Speaker 1: fearful that we don't know what one hundred percent, or

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Speaker 1: we're fearful that will make other people feel insecure. People

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Speaker 1: often say it's self doubt. It's way more than self doubt.

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Speaker 1: It's a constellation of things that occur. Is that most

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Speaker 1: people can identify more than one thing, and that at

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Speaker 1: leasta so even with the perfection right. So let's say

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Speaker 1: you know, like you do something perfectly, Like you pull

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Speaker 1: off this major event that you've been working really hard,

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Speaker 1: everything goes really well. Do people with imposter syndrome are

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Speaker 1: they able to give themselves credit for the thing actually

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Speaker 1: going flawlessly. No, because they are able to see the

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Speaker 1: one thing that went wrong, the one thing that nobody

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Speaker 1: else saw, the way it could have been better. They

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Speaker 1: are constantly caught up with the things that didn't go well,

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Speaker 1: and that's the things they hyper focus on. So even

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Speaker 1: if something does go well, in their heads are thinking

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Speaker 1: about everything that got messed up, and that makes it

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Speaker 1: very difficult for them to internalize, especially with the perfectionism.

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Speaker 1: Got it? So where does this come from? So are

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Speaker 1: there some kind of early childhood experiences? I mean, you've

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Speaker 1: already shared an early story for you that feels like

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Speaker 1: it could be maybe some of the beginnings of this

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Speaker 1: for you. But are there some other things that kind

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Speaker 1: of lay the path for people struggling with imposter syndrome. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So what the scholarship and the research tends to point

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Speaker 1: to is that there are ways that are early child

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Speaker 1: that sets us up for imposter syndrome. For example, being

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Speaker 1: caught in one of the three most typical early childhood roles.

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Speaker 1: So you're either the intelligent one in your family, where

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Speaker 1: you're considered the smart one, but yet you feel like

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Speaker 1: if you struggle at anything, it's evidence that you're not

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Speaker 1: necessarily as smart as everyone thinks, or the hardworking one.

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Speaker 1: So the hardworking one is the experience where you feel

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Speaker 1: like you've been told only if you like work super hard.

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Speaker 1: Only if you grind then you can get what you need.

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Speaker 1: And you always have to grind, and you never notice

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Speaker 1: are the things you are naturally good at that come

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Speaker 1: easier to you. And then the last one the survivor type,

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Speaker 1: which is someone who may not have had someone telling

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Speaker 1: them they were either the intelligent one or the hardworking one.

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Speaker 1: They may have had abuse or neglect in the home,

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Speaker 1: and their accomplishments were ways of surviving of getting out

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Speaker 1: of the circumstance, so they often feel like like everything

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Speaker 1: is super fragile. They make one mistake, I could lose

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Speaker 1: absolutely everything, even if that's not necessarily true. And on

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Speaker 1: top of the childhood dynamics, their family dynamic like anger

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Speaker 1: and conflict weren't handled very well in the family by

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Speaker 1: older people in the family, so you wanted to be

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Speaker 1: people pleasing and getting along and doing everything right to

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Speaker 1: make everyone okay, situations with which are strict family rules,

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Speaker 1: codependent family dynamics, narcissistic parental figures. So there are a

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Speaker 1: variety of different dynamics that kind of create this experience

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Speaker 1: in us, and that's why it's so embedded and often

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Speaker 1: difficult to kind of change. Just because it's so long standing,

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Speaker 1: and with many things in the field of psychology, we

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Speaker 1: know that throughout the years, new research develops and we

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Speaker 1: get new spins on things, And so I believe the

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Speaker 1: imposti syndrome was initially kind of studied in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: I believe with collegiate level white women's historically, I think,

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Speaker 1: and I know there's been a ton of research since

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Speaker 1: then that talks about how imposti syndrome might even look

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Speaker 1: differently in black women, men and women of color, people

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Speaker 1: of color. And I've also been recently seeing conversations just

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Speaker 1: kind of online about black women actually struggle with imposter

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Speaker 1: syndrome or is it actually a byproduct of systems of oppression? Right, So,

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Speaker 1: like you talked about being in institutions where you know,

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Speaker 1: we are not welcomed, where our greatness is not affirmed,

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Speaker 1: and so is it really impostive syndrome or is it

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Speaker 1: really a broken system? So can you say a little

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Speaker 1: bit about like the differences in research and what impostive

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Speaker 1: syndrome may be, how it looks different for black women. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a jampack question. So the initial research started in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight. The first hallmark paper comes out in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight. Clans and Iimes or the psychologist who

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Speaker 1: put out that paper, they're studying and they're currently at

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Speaker 1: Georgia State when it happens when they sort of start

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Speaker 1: to kind of talk about this phenomenon, and initially it's

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Speaker 1: positive that it only really occurs with women, and about

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Speaker 1: ten years or so and later in the research they

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Speaker 1: find out it also occurs in men. It doesn't occur

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Speaker 1: more in women than it does in men. That has

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Speaker 1: not been conclusively proven. Although you hear that a lot

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Speaker 1: in social it is not true. It does look different

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Speaker 1: sometimes in women and men. And we're also finding really

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Speaker 1: cool information that's just started to be researched about different

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Speaker 1: gender expressions in terms of race. It's really what you're

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Speaker 1: seeing in popular press about its oppression. It's non Imposter

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Speaker 1: syndrome has not been actually proven by the search. One

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Speaker 1: of the leading researchers today on imposter syndeme is a

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Speaker 1: black man, Kevin Cokeley, at the University of Michigan, and

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Speaker 1: he actually is writing a book currently about imposter syndrome

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Speaker 1: with American Psychological Association, and he has found out some

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Speaker 1: really powerful things that people are really not talking about.

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Speaker 1: One of the things he has found out recently that

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Speaker 1: he studied with black folk is that when you experience

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Speaker 1: imposter syndrome, the depression that results from a racially motivated

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Speaker 1: incident is actually higher. So you can actually experience more

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Speaker 1: depression when you have imposter syndrome when you have a

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Speaker 1: discrimination related incident, which is really a powerful finding. He's

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Speaker 1: also found that for black people, Latins, and Asian Americans

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Speaker 1: that imposter syndrome is a more powerful indicator of psychological

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Speaker 1: distress and mental health issues then is minority status distress.

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Speaker 1: That is a huge finding. So in essence, this idea

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Speaker 1: of being a minority and being distressed by being a

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Speaker 1: minority and that causing mental health issues is not the

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Speaker 1: strongest indicator imposter syndrome. Feelings are the strongest indicator. So

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Speaker 1: this idea that it doesn't exist with us not true.

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Speaker 1: The research is not bearing that out. It actually is

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Speaker 1: showing that it's very significant for us. We talk about

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Speaker 1: always about misinformation. It's so important out there when you're

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Speaker 1: consuming information to actually look at what's been studied, what's

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Speaker 1: been research and not to necessarily buy something because it

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Speaker 1: has a million clicks or a thousand clicks, but to

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Speaker 1: look at the data, and so he's actually doing a

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Speaker 1: ton of research on people of color and finding out

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Speaker 1: it's a very significant impact on GPA, self esteem, a

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Speaker 1: Survivor's Guild for Asian Americans, it's an indicator of potential

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Speaker 1: issues around shame. So there's so many things that he's

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Speaker 1: sort of finding and his colleagues are also finding because

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Speaker 1: there are so many new researchers of color that are

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Speaker 1: actually researching imposter syndrome. So I wouldn't necessarily buy all

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Speaker 1: the click base stuff. I know it's juicy to read,

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Speaker 1: an interesting and fun to look at, but the research

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Speaker 1: is not bearing that out and it's actually a serious

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Speaker 1: concern for us. So if we minimize it in our

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Speaker 1: own people, we will never get underneath it and change it.

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Speaker 1: And that's massive and a problem because I do believe it.

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Speaker 1: Systems benefit from imposter syndrome and they do trigger it.

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Speaker 1: So if you don't deal with it, the system is

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Speaker 1: going to benefit from you thinking you don't have imposteriom

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Speaker 1: when you may be really dealing with it and need

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Speaker 1: to deal with it directly. But it also kind of

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Speaker 1: feels like a chicken in an egg kind of thing, right,

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Speaker 1: Because I also feel like probably a lot of people

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Speaker 1: of color, black women specifically, probably their earliest experience is

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Speaker 1: with feeling like an impossible word triggered by some kind

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Speaker 1: of microaggression or racist kind of experience. Is their research

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Speaker 1: there that you can talk about. Yeah, So it's not

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Speaker 1: that systems have no play in it. It's just that

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Speaker 1: the fact that those are actually your triggers. You have

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Speaker 1: additional triggers because you are from a marginalized group, and

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Speaker 1: so things like being isolated, racism, discrimination, microaggressions, gas lighting,

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Speaker 1: all of those things are triggers for your imposter syndrome.

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Speaker 1: So if you're away from those things, your impostogendom doesn't

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Speaker 1: go away, just isn't actively triggered at the moment. And

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Speaker 1: so I think it's important thing to recognize. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of people think, oh, I'll just get away from

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Speaker 1: the bad environment, and then they find that they still

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Speaker 1: have the imposters and room just in a different circumstance.

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Speaker 1: Even in a healthy, functional work environment, even in an

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Speaker 1: environment that doesn't feel racist, you can still have it.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that's a really important thing that

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Speaker 1: it just expands the number of triggers and perhaps the

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Speaker 1: frequency in which you're being triggered because you just have

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Speaker 1: more triggers, but it's not necessarily the reason, the sole

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Speaker 1: reason why you have it. We also know that people

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Speaker 1: from privileged groups have impostors in room, So this whole

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Speaker 1: new thing about like, oh, that's so lovely of you

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Speaker 1: to say you come from a privileged group that you

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Speaker 1: have imposteriom. People from privilege groups also have impostors room,

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Speaker 1: and it's not okay for us to be gasolating them

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Speaker 1: around that either. So I think it's really important for

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Speaker 1: us not to get into this kind of crabs in

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Speaker 1: a barrel kind of situation and really allow us all

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Speaker 1: to be dealing with this openly, especially because there's been

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Speaker 1: such a lovely resurgence to be able to talk about

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Speaker 1: the forty plus years of research and things that have

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Speaker 1: gone on in the literature that no one's been paying

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Speaker 1: attention to all of this time. More from my conversation

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Speaker 1: with doctor Lisa after the break, Are there other misconceptions?

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Speaker 1: Are things that you've kind of seen just in pop

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Speaker 1: culture or things that you think are important to address. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I've talked about the woman. Things you hear

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Speaker 1: that all the time, it's a woman's issue. It's not

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Speaker 1: a woman's issue. We haven't been able to find that

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Speaker 1: their significant differences from men and women consistently. And then

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Speaker 1: I think also to you here that it's a good

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Speaker 1: thing to have, even I've seen several psychologists, big psychologists

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Speaker 1: talk about it helps you for motivation and success. There's

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Speaker 1: nothing in the research that shows that you are motivated

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Speaker 1: or more successful as a result of your imposters room.

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Speaker 1: There's actually a lot of detrimental outcomes that come from

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Speaker 1: a greater anxiety, depression, greater organizational loyalty, less seeing your

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Speaker 1: value in negotiating. So there's nothing worth keeping here that's

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Speaker 1: going to actually really help you. And I think also

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Speaker 1: to you here, like it's not going to go away,

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Speaker 1: like you've had it forever, you might as well embrace it.

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Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. Our work has been able to show that

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Speaker 1: you can actually decrease your imposterition room in a short

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Speaker 1: period of time with interventions that have been shown to

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Speaker 1: work in the research. So something else you talk about

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Speaker 1: in your work is the imposter syndrome paradox. Can you

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Speaker 1: say a little bit more about what that is? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think the paradox is really about the experience of

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Speaker 1: that it's good for you, that you know that in

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Speaker 1: some ways, that it's helping you, that's motivating, that you

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Speaker 1: know you can't live without it, and meanwhile, it's actually

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Speaker 1: holding you back. It's preventing you from things that you

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Speaker 1: probably can't even dream or think about yet, because it

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Speaker 1: keeps your world of super super narrow, even though it's

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Speaker 1: telling you I'm the reason why you're successful. If you

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Speaker 1: didn't work as hard, if you didn't push yourself as hard,

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Speaker 1: if you didn't try to please this person, then you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily get what you want. But that's not necessarily true.

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Speaker 1: I think really it's about sort of really challenging these

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Speaker 1: notions and figuring out what you really want from yourself.

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Speaker 1: What are the things that you're striving for. How do

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Speaker 1: you take care of yourself in a different way, like

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Speaker 1: really making your world much more expansive than the world

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Speaker 1: that imposters to them. What's you have you know? Not

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Speaker 1: to Lisa. I think a lot of people struggle with

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Speaker 1: this concept because it feels like, well, at least the

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Speaker 1: people we see publicly talk about struggling with impasto syndrome

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00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,880
Speaker 1: are like on the outside looking in like doing so incredible, right,

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Speaker 1: and so the thing I often also hear is that, like,

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Speaker 1: the people who actually might be impostors don't struggle with

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Speaker 1: imposti syndrome. Is there anything that you can offer there

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00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,119
Speaker 1: that might be helpful? Yeah, So you often hear this too,

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Speaker 1: which is not necessarily true. Everyone has impostor. Know the

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Speaker 1: data does not show that out It's about seventy percent

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Speaker 1: of people experience impostor. So people often ask me, what's

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Speaker 1: on the other side of that, what's that thirty percent?

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Speaker 1: So I think there are people who have never experienced Impostitionroome.

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Speaker 1: I think that there are people who did not have

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Speaker 1: the early childhood experiences in dynamics, including people of color.

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Speaker 1: Because my husband has never experienced in postome. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: know what it's about it. He knows that it's about clinically,

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Speaker 1: but he hasn't experienced it personally. He's always felt confident,

420
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Speaker 1: he always felt like it was his skills. If he

421
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Speaker 1: was discriminated against, he was like, that's discrimination, that's racism,

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Speaker 1: that's not me. So there are people who don't experience

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Speaker 1: at all, And the other group is usually the Dunning

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00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 1: Krueger affect people so that's people who believe they are

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Speaker 1: expert when they are not good. Yeah, it feels like

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Speaker 1: we've gotten like an explosion of scammers, like people who

427
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,439
Speaker 1: have gotten people from all this money, right and like

428
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 1: just go through the world selling people on they have

429
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 1: all these answers when they clearly social is great for

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00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 1: that really allowing people to become expert because they have

431
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 1: a large jumber of followers, not because they have actual

432
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,679
Speaker 1: any expertise. So you mentioned a little while ago that

433
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 1: there definitely are strategies and interventions that people can try

434
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: to work through imposter syndrome. Can you say a little

435
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,919
Speaker 1: bit about the things that we're helpful for you and

436
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: working through imposter syndrome and also other things people might

437
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 1: be interested in trying. Yeah, So our first book lays

438
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 1: out those kind of nine interventions that have been significantly

439
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 1: shown in the research to really change the game with

440
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome. One of them is really learning how to

441
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: identify automatic negative thoughts when you're triggered and then how

442
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: to counter them a basic CPT and methodology that really

443
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: works really lovely with imposter syndrome. But the piece that

444
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 1: we are working on identifying is what are those imposter syndrome,

445
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 1: thoughts that are happening. Oftentimes we have come to believe

446
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 1: them is true, and really recognizing that they're not necessarily

447
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 1: true and they're actually impeding and reinforcing the imposter syndrome.

448
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: Really is part of the work is being able to

449
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: identify and distinguish them. So, like I love this quote

450
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 1: by Amy Ray that says, you are not your thoughts,

451
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: you are the observer of your thoughts. So teaching people

452
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: to be more observers of their thoughts and learning to

453
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 1: kind of not trust them as truth just because they're

454
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 1: coming at you from your head. So that's a piece.

455
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:25,959
Speaker 1: One of the other pieces that we know that imposter

456
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 1: syndrome causes a lot of overwork, so it causes burnout.

457
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 1: It's significantly correlated to burnout. So one of the things

458
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: that we often are teaching people how to do is

459
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: how to really embrace and structure and prioritize self care

460
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: in their lives and really find ways to kind of

461
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 1: consider this as foundational. You don't get self care when

462
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 1: whatever time's left over you're actually thinking about it. Being

463
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: very embedded. We also talk about an imposter syndrome. We

464
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: often are lone rules because we're embarrassed about the things

465
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 1: that we feel like we're hiding, we often don't necessarily

466
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,719
Speaker 1: embrace and bring in other people to help us. And

467
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: bringing strategic community around you becomes really incredibly important and

468
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,679
Speaker 1: letting people into the story. So there's a variety of

469
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: things that are not impossible, really easy to do that

470
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: can actually affect it pretty quickly and permanently. So, doctor Lisa,

471
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: is there a connection between impaster syndrome and self esteem?

472
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: Like are they related? And how is it different if

473
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: they aren't related. Yeah, so there is a significant correlation

474
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 1: in the research for imposter synerema and self esteem. And

475
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: you can imagine, right if you feel like you're just

476
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: like a fraud, that you your self esteem is pretty poor.

477
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: And so I think that is a part of really

478
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: working on is really one of the things we also

479
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: talk about is about really starting to recognize your accomplishments

480
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: and internalizing your accomplishments. Oftentimes we're very bad at that

481
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: and very good at like dismissing compliments, dismissing opportunities to

482
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: show off something that we've done. We really loathe that stuff,

483
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: and so really learning how to recognize that, internalizing and

484
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: working on your self esteem pretty proactively can be a

485
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: natural kind of buffer to dealing with impostors. And because

486
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: if you really actually feel you are confident and you

487
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: are capable and you can do these things, when those

488
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 1: thoughts come across you, you're more readily able to challenge

489
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: them because you know you are competent. And so I

490
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: think really like recognizing that self esteem issues also have

491
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: to be worked on as a part of the processes

492
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: incredibly important. So you're working actual lest You also talk

493
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: about in the community loves like a five step kind

494
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: of thing. So you have five steps for giving up

495
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: perfectionism and breaking the impactive syndrome cycle. Can you talk

496
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: us through these steps? So, in dealing with perfectionism, it's

497
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: really about recognizing that perfectionism is not necessarily responsible for

498
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: your achievements and your growth. I think also too, with perfectionism,

499
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,239
Speaker 1: we often see all the pros that it brings us

500
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: and all the things that we feel like it's benefiting us,

501
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: but we have to also recognize there are real significant

502
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: consequences for our perfectionism, and so really being able to

503
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: see the cons in perfectionism, for example, the way it

504
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 1: makes us overwork, the way that it never allows us

505
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 1: to internalize things that are not perfect, the fact that

506
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: will never be perfect. So what are we striving for?

507
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: So being able to kind of really recognize those things

508
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: we also often talk about instead of striving for perfections,

509
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: striving for and a lot of people struggle with this,

510
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: but the good enough and if not the good enough,

511
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: maybe the great enough? And then how do we kind

512
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: of allow ourselves for something to be able to take

513
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: in that it's good enough or great enough and that

514
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: it's not perfect and really practice that intention and so

515
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: really working to challenge the notions of perfectionism that have

516
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: kept it in trench, that have made it feel like

517
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: it is actually a benefit to us when it actually

518
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: is the detriment to us. So really like proactively doing

519
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: that work. The other pieces are being able to embrace

520
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: the growth mindset, so when you are making a mistake,

521
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: not having a fixed mindset like this is all that

522
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: I'm capable of. I did a mini am mistake, this

523
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: is evidence of who I am and understanding that part

524
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: of making mistakes is learning and then also seeking support.

525
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: So being able to seek support and find support when

526
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: you need it, which can be really hard when you're

527
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: perfectionist because you have to show your flaws yourself, to

528
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: show your vulnerability. Perfectionism is not necessarily a reason for

529
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: your success. To embrace the growth mindset, to strive for

530
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: good enough or great enough and not perfect, to recognize

531
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: the cons of perfectionism, and to seek support when you

532
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: need the support. So you also talk about in your

533
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: work like two different cycles of impostors. So impasto cycle

534
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 1: one in impostive cycle too. Can you break that down

535
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: for us? Yeah, So for impostor cycle one, it's you

536
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: get triggered, you go into performance anxiety. As a result

537
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: of that performance anxiety, you then overwork. As a result

538
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: of overworking, you know, you then put way too much

539
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: effort into the thing to make sure that it's absolutely perfect.

540
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: You then get the performance review. Usually get positive feedback

541
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: if you're overworking. So you get positive feedback, and then

542
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: you move on because you haven't internalized that. You don't

543
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: take in the compliments, you don't take in the puzzle feedback,

544
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: and you get caught in the cycle all over again.

545
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: Then for imposter cycle too, if you get the trigger,

546
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: you have the performance anxiety. This time, instead of overworking,

547
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 1: you engage in self sabotage, and for people with imposti

548
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: to know what self sabotage tends to look like is

549
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: long periods of procrastination followed by short, intense bursts of overwork.

550
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: So we're actually going to do the thing, We're just

551
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: going to do it in a very short, intense period

552
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: of time, potentially flirting with disaster or emergencies that might

553
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: arise that we can't manage. We then get the performance review.

554
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: If it goes well and we handle the emergencies and

555
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: all of that, then we get positive performance review, we

556
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: ignore it, we move on, or we get critical feedback.

557
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: If we were making mistakes or something happened that we

558
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: weren't able to check, then we hyper focus on that

559
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: negative feedback so that we make sure that we never

560
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: make that mistake again and then get caught in the

561
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: cycle all over again. So what are some ways to

562
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: kind of break that cycle? Because it does feel like

563
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: in the workplace we would probably see a lot of this, right,

564
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: especially when you're talking about these two cycles that you're describing.

565
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: That's why we like to think of it as a

566
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: cycle because there's a couple different intervention points that you

567
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: can think about. So if you're being triggered. One of

568
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 1: the intervention points is to recognize it as a trigger

569
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: and then decide, okay, when I'm triggered like this, For example,

570
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: I have to give a talk. I hate public speaking

571
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: and that's when I feel like an imposter when I

572
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 1: publicly speak. So do you get the trigger someone asked

573
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: you to give the talk, and then instead of over

574
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: preparing for the talk and cycle one, you and then

575
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: and decide, Okay, I'm going to spend this much time

576
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: on this talk preparing and I'm going to rehearse it.

577
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to go through those steps, but I'm not

578
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: going to overfunction. I'm not going to over prepare to

579
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: give this talk. And you kind of set aside amount

580
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: of time that you're going to give to it, and

581
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: then you do that. But another part of breaking the

582
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: cycle is working on the feedback part, so really working

583
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: on taking in compliments. Somebody says you did a great

584
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: job at that talk, and then you say, thank you

585
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 1: so much, I really appreciate that, and you write down

586
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: what they said so later on you can recall it

587
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: and work on internalizing it. Typically, when someone says to us,

588
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: we need a great job in the talk, The first

589
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: thing we said was did you notice the thing though

590
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: that I screwed up here or that number was wrong

591
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: or the slide deck was that's what we typically engage in.

592
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: Or we say, oh, they don't know enough about our

593
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: feel to really give me positive feedback. It's useful, and

594
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: so we find ways to find excuses of what not

595
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: to internalize it so it can break up the kind

596
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: of habit there or the cycle. There also the negative

597
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: talk stuff and managing the negative toxic So there's all

598
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: kinds of ways and tools that you can break it

599
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: up with the ideas to break up the cycle, to

600
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,719
Speaker 1: know that what it looks like for you, and to

601
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: figure out what is the intervention point that might make

602
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: it even that just slightly different. More from my conversation

603
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: with doctor Lisa after the break. So, I wonder if

604
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: you can say you a little bit about what are

605
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: something maybe other overlooked components of workplace culture that can

606
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: contribute to being a trigger fool or somebody's impostor syndrome. Yeah,

607
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: so they're a variety having a toxic boss. One of

608
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: the things that drives us most, Battie, is like, how

609
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: many toxic bosses are allowed to be toxic openly, and

610
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: so I think a toxic boss can be very triggering.

611
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: There's especially certain types of toxic bosses, like perfectionistic bosses

612
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: who are like the prove it to me bosses that

613
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: are like, you're only as good as your last performance.

614
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of different boss types that can be triggering. Also,

615
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: cultures can be very triggering. You know, an organizational culture

616
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: that tends to reward overwork, and so the people who

617
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: are doing well are killing themselves, and so your model

618
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: is to kind of work overwork, overfunction. There are certain

619
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: industries that aren't like that, Like law tends to be

620
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: one that is very much like that, where the expectation

621
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: is sixty to eighty hours a week of work. Medicine

622
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: is like that. There's a lot of feels in which

623
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 1: it's inherently built in that overwork is not considered overwork,

624
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: is just considered work. Although people see the consequences of

625
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: it and recognize it's not healthy for them, still part

626
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: of what's considered standard, and so that can be pretty problematic.

627
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: I think one of the things we talk about too

628
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: is like places that are not psychologically safe for you

629
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: to work, where you don't feel like you can bring

630
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: your whole self to work. It kind of brings in

631
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: it triggers this idea of kind of covering and hiding

632
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: and being someone else, and then you're not good enough.

633
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: So there are a variety of things that workplaces do

634
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: and promote that really do consistently reinforce imposter syndrome. But realleas,

635
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: I'm curious, is there any research that talks about people

636
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: who struggle with imposter syndrome being drawn to a particular

637
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: career path. Oh, that's a really good question. I haven't

638
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: seen it being about being drawn to career paths, but

639
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: I have seen research that shows that they will kind

640
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: of veer off a career path as a result of

641
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome. A bunch of studies have looked at stem

642
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: issues around science, technology, engineering, and math, and that especially

643
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: for men, and they also find anything for people of

644
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: color that when you have impostor syndrome, you're likely to

645
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: veer off stem paths because this idea is like I'm

646
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,479
Speaker 1: not good enough, and you know, as a result of that,

647
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: even if they are good enough, if they see any

648
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: glimmer of not being good enough, they'll beer off because

649
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: they don't feel like they can master it. So I

650
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: think we've seen it with stem kind of leading. But

651
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: I think your questions really well taken, because there are

652
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: certain career paths in which you are constantly proving yourself,

653
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: you constantly don't feel good enough. We're talking about law

654
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: in medicine, where I see it probably considered almost normal.

655
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: I've done work in law firms and other places and

656
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: everyone was like, I thought this was normal. I thought, like,

657
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: this is just the way you're supposed to function. And

658
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: so I do think there are certain fields in which

659
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: I think the culture of the field probably pulls. There's

660
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: not research to say this. I'm just saying, based on anecdotally,

661
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: that it pulls for you to feel like you have

662
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: to prove yourself and not feeling feels familiar, and so

663
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: that feeling of being familiar makes it feel like it's

664
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: a fit. So I do think I could see that

665
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: a lot. I could see that potentially could be well

666
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: researching and there might be some interesting findings there. Yeah,

667
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: that's what made me curious about it. When you mentioned

668
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: like law and medicine, I can imagine that if people

669
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: don't have access to a conversation like this, or they

670
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know like the signs and symptoms of empower

671
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: sit syndrome. It may just feel like, oh, this is

672
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: what happens in law school, right, or this is what

673
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: it looks like to be an emergency room doctor. And

674
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: not until they run across this kind of information do

675
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: they realize, like, oh, everybody doesn't feel this way. You

676
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: need it shouldn't feel this way. Yeah, that life might

677
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: be easier if it didn't feel this way in terms

678
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: of like feeling like I could actually set limits, like

679
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: a set boundaries, like a say no things that are

680
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: nearly impossible when you have impostitroom to do so. You

681
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time talking about like the bad

682
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: bosses and like what people should not do to trigger

683
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,239
Speaker 1: people's impostit syndrome. Do you have some suggestions for more

684
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: bosses and managers of things that people can do to

685
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: actually not trigger people's impostit syndrome more further contribute to it. Yeah.

686
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: I think number one. Psychological safety is really important, really

687
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: making people feel like they can show up as their

688
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: full true selves and also be able to raise issues

689
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: without being challenged in the workplace, like to be able

690
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: to disagree with something and not be the worst thing

691
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: in the world. It's really important for there to be

692
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: disagreement and different opinions. And I also think too, it's

693
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: really important that we model balance. And that's a tricky

694
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: kind of perception. People are saying, you know, there is

695
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: no balance, but to be able to model the fact

696
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 1: that you can separate from work and you can have

697
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: a personal life, and that becomes really important in the workplace.

698
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: I think also to your really understanding when you see

699
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: people with struggling with imposter syndrome, that you're not accidentally

700
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: reinforcing it and engage in behaviors that encourage them to

701
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: continue to prove themselves to you, or that they're not

702
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: good enough, or you remember when I started my doctoral

703
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: program and I was with five of my cohort mates.

704
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: There was only five of us. And after the day

705
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: of like hearing all their accomplishments and all the things

706
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: that they had done, and I was like, I was

707
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: twenty four, I hadn't done half the things that they

708
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: had done. And I remember walking out of there and

709
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: seeing my mentor outside and he said, how did it go?

710
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: And I said, I feel like I don't belong here.

711
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: I feel like they made a mistake, and he said, well,

712
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: we're about to find out. And while he may have

713
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: felt like that was encouraging, all I heard was, Okay,

714
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: we may have made a mistake, and now you're going

715
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: to prove that we didn't make a mistake. And so

716
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: I spent the next three to five years like trying

717
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: to prove I belonged. And so we can accidentally say

718
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: things off the cuff or things that we think are

719
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: encouraging that are actually reinforcing imposter syndrome in the workplace.

720
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: And I do also think one thing that's pretty scary

721
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: is that and I apptise people think about how impositive

722
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: affects them personally, but it can affect you as a

723
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: manager and a leader, and that when you're a leader

724
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: and you have impostoris room, you can engage in behaviors

725
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: that can be quite toxic, quite accidentally. But I think

726
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: it's really important to recognize. For example, you can be

727
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 1: quite a bad micro manager because you're afraid of how

728
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: other people will perceive someone else representing you in your

729
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: work and your team, so you can micromanage. You can

730
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: be very bad at representing the team's wins because you

731
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: just know are very uncomfortable with doing that. You can

732
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: be a person who actually accidentally reinforced IMPOSTERISME for other people.

733
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: So it's really important to recognize as an interpersonal issue

734
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: that can have large impacts on others. So imposter syndrome

735
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: is not a DSM classification. So this is not something

736
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: somebody's going to diagnose you with. But I'm wondering, you know,

737
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: people may be listening to this and thinking like, oh,

738
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: is this something I struggle with? Is there some kind

739
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: of like quiz or worksheet or something people can fill

740
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 1: out to see if this is something then they actually

741
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: struggle with. We have a quiz on our site, so

742
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 1: you can look at sort of my kind of Instagram

743
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: and there's a quiz there. But doctor Klanson, i'ms also

744
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: have a quiz that you can easily google and that's

745
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: free to take. Mind's free to take two, and so

746
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: you just kind of get a sense of whether or

747
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: not this is something you're experiencing. Got it. I'm gonna

748
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: get a little person with you, doctor Lisa. So you know,

749
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: I feel like I have kind of struggled with imposter

750
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: syndrome on and off. I am preparing for my book

751
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: to be released in June, and I thank you. And

752
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: I feel like this is when it has been the

753
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: highest right, Like you're writing a book and you are

754
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: preparing for your new book to come out. So I'm

755
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: curious about your process of managing imposter syndrome. While you

756
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: were writing in launching books, you knew how to hit

757
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: the trigger point in you. It was rough, It was

758
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: really rough. The book had come in this very beautiful way,

759
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: like the acquisition editor had reached out to us and

760
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: had it. You've been writing about this. We'd love to

761
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: write a book out apostom. Would you be open to it?

762
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: And they were lovely. I couldn't have found a less

763
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome triggering experience. Like they were like, you write

764
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: the book you want to write, you'd be free. But

765
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: good lord did it trigger? Like I was like, be free, bright,

766
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: But I know, I don't know anything. What am I

767
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: doing here? My husband, like I said, who doesn't really

768
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: deal with imposture? He got right to it. We split

769
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 1: up the chapters. He just started pounding things out, and

770
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: I was procrastinating and like doing extra research. I literally

771
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: read every single article under the sun, like, and I

772
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: didn't write anything. And then the craziest thing happened, which

773
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: was I thought the deadline for our book was October

774
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: thirty first, but it was actually October first, and so

775
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: I was a month behind. And so we spent a

776
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 1: week writing the majority of the remainder of the book

777
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: pretty much almost like what felt like every waking hour.

778
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: And it was very painful because I was already struggling

779
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: with I wasn't competent enough, and now I had to

780
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: bust out this book in like a matter of a week.

781
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: So it was a very intense, very difficult experience. My

782
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: imposition room was all over the place and feeling like

783
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: I was going to get exposed and then what it was,

784
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, and so it was really a rough The

785
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: first one was a really rough, painful experience to right.

786
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: The second one felt different. But the first one was

787
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: rough because I think I was being massively triggered and

788
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: not managing my triggers and not managing the cycle and

789
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: not doing anything I was supposed to do but procrastinating.

790
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: So it was right, and now you've sound up to

791
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: do it again. Right, So actually such a but I

792
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: think I think through the process also of talking about

793
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: the book and sharing the book and realizing how much

794
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 1: it had impacted people, Like with that first book and

795
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: seeing how many people had really changed as a result

796
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 1: of it, I felt like that I'm actually doing something,

797
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: even if it's painful, I need to learn the lessons

798
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: that so when I write the next one, it's not

799
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: so painful. And I think with the second one, I

800
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: was much more organized and I did face the kind

801
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: of I did not procrastinate. I actually tried to really

802
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: learn from the first process because I was in such

803
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 1: like it felt visceral, the pain in my skin about

804
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: how fearful I was. And so the second book wasn't

805
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: as bad in terms of like really feeling like I

806
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: had something to say that you know, I really wanted

807
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: to make sure that I got it out there, and

808
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: so it wasn't as bad the second time around. There

809
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: were other things that were bad about the second time round,

810
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: but it wasn't around writing it right. It wasn't that play,

811
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: It wasn't that. So the new book is called Your

812
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: Unstoppable Greatness, Break Free from Impassive Syndrome, Cultivate your Agency,

813
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: and achieve your ultimate career goals, and it is more

814
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: of a work book. There prompts there I'm wondering if

815
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: you can share maybe one or two of your favorite

816
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: activities or exercises from that book that might be helpful

817
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: for our community. Yeah, so the first part lays out

818
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: your agency and really thinking about sort of like how

819
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: do you make yourself feel powerful in this process. One

820
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: of the things that we noticed when we did the

821
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: first book was that people were able to deal with

822
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: the interpersonal issues and their imposter syndrome scores went down

823
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: and they felt a lot better about themselves. But then

824
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: they went into these systems like we were talking about earlier,

825
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: that we're super toxic, and they were sort of regressing

826
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: them and making them forget their skills, remember, forget their power,

827
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: be like I don't know, it's always going to suck.

828
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: And so the first pieces are really about dealing with

829
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: your agency and really honing and really deciding that I

830
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: have the power to do this. And the second piece

831
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: is probably my most favorite part because it's really about

832
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: the system's issues and really trying to help you recognize

833
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: the ways in whi some of your early family dynamics

834
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: may create or show up in your work dynamics and

835
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: the kinds of bosses you choose. The kinds of environments

836
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: you're familiar with, and so how do you break That's

837
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: me as a psychologist, that's like the stuff that I

838
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: feel most excited about. And then the last piece is

839
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: really about helping you to be a good leader and

840
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: how you show up in the world, like making sure

841
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: the imposturoom doesn't affect others, and the ways that you

842
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: build culture, the ways that you build teams. But in

843
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: terms of like specific exercises, I think some of my

844
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: favorites are if you're dealing with a narcisstic boss or

845
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 1: quote a pendant boss, sort of taking a deep dive

846
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: and looking into kind of exploring sort of what is

847
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: it about those kinds of bosses that are kind of

848
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: familiar to you and what patterns do you need to

849
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: break around them. I think it's really powerful for me

850
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: because that's was my issue. I often had a very

851
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 1: narcissiic boss, and I had to take a really deep

852
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: dive look at why that was the case and why

853
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: I really was drawn to narcissistic bosses. I literally felt

854
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 1: like a magnet. I didn't never know how that kept happening,

855
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: and then when I was able to deconstruct it, I

856
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: could smell it a mile away, And when I smelled it,

857
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: I totally did not ever like I don't care how

858
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: good the job was. I was like, I'm not. I

859
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: can't take the risk. It's not good for me, it's

860
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: not healthy for me. So really learning that, I think

861
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: was really critical for me moving forward, because I did

862
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: have other jobs after I left that job. Even though

863
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: I started my practice and did other things, I had

864
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: a plan for what my future is going to look like.

865
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: I still had to have other jobs to kind of

866
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: pay the bills as I was kind of setting things forward.

867
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: So you mentioned just now, and you've talked before during

868
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: this conversation about like some of those early life events

869
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: that really can kind of set the stage for impassive syndrome.

870
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: Can you give us a sense of what some of

871
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: those early life experiences are. Some of those early dynamics

872
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 1: have to do with the family dynamics, and so these

873
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: ideas around, for example, strict family rules, and so what

874
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: strict family rules often do to people within clustroom is

875
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: that we know how to fall in line, but we

876
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: often don't know how to question the strict family rules,

877
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 1: or we've never were allowed to question them. So if

878
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: we get into a work environment where there's a lot

879
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: of rules and where we're asked to behave in certain ways.

880
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: We're good at adhering to that, even if it's detrimental

881
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: for us. And so really learning to see those connections

882
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: between the earlier childhood rules and dynamics and then seeing

883
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: how it's showing up in your work world and what

884
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: you need to change about it, because sometimes being compliant

885
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: in a work situation isn't the best thing for you.

886
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: Sometimes it is. It's something that's fun, but it's when

887
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: it's unhealthy for you, And how do you challenge it

888
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: when you've never had the skill or ability to challenge

889
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: it before? You know, Also thinking about sort of the

890
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: narcissistic parental dynamics. Sometimes the narcissistic having a narcissistic parent

891
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: can lead to being attracted to or drawn to, or

892
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: finding familiar narcissistic bosses, and so that experience can also

893
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: do that same thing with codependent dynamics. We have a

894
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: codependent dynamic in your home, being attracted to a codependent

895
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 1: work dynamic, or where like we're all family, we all

896
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: get along, no one disagrees. It could be very seductive

897
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: because it feels very familiar, but is it the best

898
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 1: environment for you? Because oftentimes codependent dynamics and codependent dynosic

899
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: work are very stagnant. They don't allow growth because they

900
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: don't allow disagreement, they don't allow change, and so they

901
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: can really stick you in your career. You can get stuck.

902
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: And so really starting to look at these things, really

903
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: what I want people to do is kind of pull

904
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: them apart and just look at them and observe them

905
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: and think about what they'd want to change about them

906
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: to give themselves more agency in the process. So I

907
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: wonder if you could share with us one or affirmation

908
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: that you share with yourself when your inner critic is

909
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: louder than your inner cheerleader, that's a great question. I

910
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: think it's my husband's mantra, which is when you work

911
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: as hard for yourself as you do for others, you're

912
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: going to be unstoppable. And I think for me that

913
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: often doesn't mean just about work and also sometimes means

914
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: about prioritizing myself. And I think you know that often

915
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: when my inner critic is louder than my inner cheerleader,

916
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: oftentimes I need to care for myself deeper, and I'm

917
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,439
Speaker 1: often losing connection to myself, and that's when I start

918
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: to focus on, Okay, what else do I need? Do

919
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 1: my meditations need to go up in time? Do I

920
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: need to make sure that I'm taking care of my body?

921
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: Do I need to my mind like what's happening? And

922
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: how do I need to serve myself? So I do

923
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: often think about when I'm feeling most disregulated by all

924
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: of that, I need to kind of care for myself

925
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: in some particular way and what is it? And I

926
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: sort of take that moment to reflect back on that.

927
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: Thank you for the dental lies. I appreciate it. So

928
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: I know that lots of people will want to stay

929
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: connected to all the incredible things that you are doing.

930
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: Where can we find you online? Which your website as

931
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: well as any social media handles you'd like to share? Yeah,

932
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: so my websites Dynamic Transitions, LLP dot com and my

933
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 1: Instagram handles doctor orbe Austin. And I'm also on LinkedIn

934
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: pretty regularly. I'm a LinkedIn top voice, so I'm on

935
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: there pretty regularly. So all of those that's three main ones,

936
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: I think. And where can we find the book? The

937
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: book is available at all major booksellers, Barnes and Noble,

938
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: Amazon Books a million, all the big major booksellers got it.

939
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: And you mentioned then if we go to your website,

940
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: we can find a quiz around impass syndrome. Why there

941
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: are other free resources? Are things you have prepared that

942
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: you want to share? Yeah, actually we didn't talk about this,

943
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: but I would be more than happy to share my

944
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: toolkit with your listeners. If that toolkit has like the

945
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: ants cards in it and the coping cards that are

946
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: part of the book. It has digital coping cards. It

947
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 1: also has like a video on how to actually approach

948
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 1: the book, because the book is a workbook. It's not

949
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: a book you read in a weekend. It's a thing

950
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 1: you do. And so we talk about that, and so

951
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: I would be more than happy to share that with

952
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: their readers, a free resource and are to your listeners.

953
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, the quizzes out there. We have a lot

954
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: of free resources. We have a whole video section on

955
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: our website with all the different videos that we've done

956
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: and so like, and if you've watched our instagram, we're

957
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: all about information, So we love free resources. We want

958
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: to make sure people have access. That's really important to us.

959
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: So yeah, so there's tons out there if you look

960
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,479
Speaker 1: at our stuff, both Richard's and as Richards as doctor

961
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: rich or by Austin. But he has a ton of

962
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: resources as well. Perfect well, we should include all of

963
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: that in the show notes. Thank you so much listening

964
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: some time with us today, Doctor at least I appreciate it.

965
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: You're so welcome. It's with my pleasure. Thank you. I'm

966
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: so glad Doctor Lisa was able to join us for

967
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: this episode. To learn more about her work or to

968
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: check out some of the resources she shared, visit the

969
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session

970
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: three zero two, and don't forget to text two of

971
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: your girls right now to encourage them to check out

972
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: the episode as well. If you're looking for a therapist

973
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy

974
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want

975
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic or just be in

976
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: community with other sisters, come on over and join us

977
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the

978
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: Internet designed just for black women. You can join us

979
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: at community die Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode

980
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: was produced by FRIEDA Lucas and at least Ellis, and

981
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much

982
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

983
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take it

984
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:32,479
Speaker 1: care