1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm akshatrati. This week more coal, less gas, 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: and the same old energy crisis. My guest today is 3 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: Jennifer Morgan, Germany's Special Envoy for climate change. In the 4 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: world of climate diplomats, she stands alongside John Kerry of 5 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: the US and she A Genoa of China as one 6 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: of the most important figures. Germany is the world's fourth 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: largest economy and the largest economy an emateur in Europe. 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: When she was appointed as the country's first climate Envoy 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: in March last year, Jennifer became the face of Germany's 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: international climate negotiations. She has a unique background. From twenty 11 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: sixteen to twenty twenty two, she was the leader of Greenpeace, 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: an organization known for its environmental stunts and political pressure campaigns. 13 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: They disrupted ail drilling the coast of Greenland, blocked Russian 14 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: whaling ships, and scaled Toronto's ceantower. Now she has moved 15 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: into government and inherited a mess. After decades of cultivating 16 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: deeper economic ties with Russia through energy imports and hoping 17 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: it would create a more peaceful world, Germany has been 18 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: proven wrong. Alongside invading Ukraine, Russia exploited Germany's over reliance 19 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: on gas and turned energy into a weapon. Denmark, Poland, 20 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: and Sweden say they believe leaks in two major Russian 21 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: gas pipelines to Europe are the results of sabotage. Germany's 22 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: chance to all of shots has unveiled a two hundred 23 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: billion euro plan to guard the German economy against the 24 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: effects of soaring energy prices. In this hardware store near Berlin, 25 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: they're already getting ready for the cold season. Customers aren't 26 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: rushing to buy fans, but anything that'll keep them warm 27 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: this winter. Germany is now in a very difficult position. 28 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: It has been forced to rapidly wean itself off Russian 29 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: ass and find replacement to keep its manufacturing economy going. 30 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: Before the war, Russia provided Germany with fifty two percent 31 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: of its gas. Since September, it provides none. This has 32 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: come at enormous cost to German citizens and the planet. 33 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: Germany has had to pay through the nose for imports 34 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: of liquefied natural gas, out competing poorer nations. It has 35 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: built new energy terminals and reopened enough coal plants to 36 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: power five million homes. Many are not happy. Protests erupted 37 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: in January near Dusseldorf around the expansion of a coal 38 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: mine that produces lignite, the dirtiest form of coal. Greta 39 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: Thunberg was briefly detained when she joined the demonstrations. This 40 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: is all playing in the background as Jennifer pursues delicate 41 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: climate negotiations. I sat down with her at the World 42 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: Economic Forum in Davos to ask whether the war has 43 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: put a dent in Germany's climate ambitions, how the country 44 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: can continue to play a role as a climate leader 45 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: while increasing coal use, and if trade tensions with the 46 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: US are spurring more climate competition. Jennifer, welcome to the show. 47 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: Thanks great to be here. You are now germany Special 48 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: enoy on climate, But immediately before taking on this role, 49 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: you were the head of Greenpeace. You were an activist. 50 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: Now you're a diplomat. How has it been moving from 51 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: one to the other and how does what you did 52 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: as an activist feed into your work as a climate envoy. Well, 53 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: I guess I consider myself and many other diplomats activists diplomats, 54 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: because what you learn when you are working as an 55 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: activist or as a campaigner in NGO, you learn how 56 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: to have clear goals, you learn how to communicate, you 57 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: learn how to build coalitions, and all of those things 58 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: are incredibly important also as a climate envoy. When you 59 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: took on the role, Germany was at a moment of transition. 60 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: It had elected a new government which had the Green 61 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: Party as a partner, and just before getting into government 62 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: it had set a twenty forty five net zero goal. 63 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: But of course in the last twelve months things have 64 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: changed drastically, and that's because of the war. Since the 65 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 1: war began, Germany has built new llergy facilities, revived goal 66 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: facilities that would do to be shut down, and is 67 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: being incredibly high prices for the gas that it's importing 68 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: out competing many poorer nations who can't afford that gas anymore. 69 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: So how can you continue to argue that Germany is 70 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: a leader on climate action because there's a whole other 71 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: part of the story, and that story is the largest 72 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: piece of energy legislation and the history of Germany. That 73 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: is scaling up renewables to eighty percent by twenty thirty. 74 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: That is the continued work to recently in North Wine Westphilia, 75 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: to phase out coal by twenty thirty. That is a 76 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: climate law that is binding that will keep us to 77 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: all of those targets. And that is also the fact 78 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: that we have phased out Russian fossil fuels. Fifty five 79 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: percent of German gas imports were from Russia, and that 80 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: we will in the end use less gas and phase 81 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: it out earlier than we would have before the Russian 82 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: War of aggression. So what I understand and see in 83 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: this new government in this moment of climate crisis and 84 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: energy security, is that we're thinking it together. There have 85 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: been short term emergency things that have had to happen, 86 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: like having coal in reserve if needed to get us 87 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: through the winter, and those have been painful decisions to make, 88 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: but they will be They don't question our climate targets. 89 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: Those are set, they're legally binding. And the new emissions 90 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: trading too, that just has been passed through the European 91 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: Union I think will make it even more likely that 92 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: that can be met earlier. Now. As the head of 93 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: green Peace, you know, optics matter. One of the things 94 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: that Greenpeace does well continues to do well, is organize 95 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: spectacular protests which bring attention of world governments, world media 96 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,559 Speaker 1: to tell a story that really needs to be told, 97 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: and at this moment as we speak, their protests taking 98 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: place in Germany. Who gains the expansion of a coal 99 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: mine in Luzert. Greta Tunberg was detained at the protest 100 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: and was carried off by police dressed in riot gear. 101 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: Those images are stunning. First, do you wish you were 102 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: able to protest with them? Well, I think that there is. Thankfully, 103 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: we live in a democratic country where that kind of 104 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: engagement and peaceful protest is possible and is a very 105 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: important part of our national conversation. And I've participated in 106 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: many protests and demonstrations in my time, and I think 107 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: that the voices of youth in our country that in 108 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: a way demonstrate the seriousness of the situation that we're in. 109 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: Their level of desperation, of anger, of wanting things to 110 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: happen more quickly is a very legitimate one and one 111 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: that we take very seriously. Another way to as our question, 112 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: what has Germany done since you became an own way 113 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: that you would have protested if you were still in 114 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: your last role at Greenpeace. I mean, I think I'm 115 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: now in a new role. So, like I said, peaceful 116 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: protest and human rights and democratic systems are fundamental, and 117 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: in the past I have been part of that community. 118 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: Now I'm very grateful and thankful that I live in 119 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: a country where that is the case, and those rights 120 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: for peaceful protest need to be maintained. I think that 121 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: it's a challenge we live in right now. We are 122 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: in a climate crisis. I think the government is working 123 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: to do everything that it can to phase out COLE 124 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: more quickly while also dealing with this Russian war of aggression, 125 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: and that is hard, It is not easy at all, 126 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: But I think it's also really important and images do 127 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: matter about you know, the over fifty percent of households 128 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: in Germany and have renewable energy, the fact that we're 129 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: moving more quickly than anyone else in getting those moving 130 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: and accelerating that pace and scale of change, and then 131 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: sharing that learning with other countries so that they can 132 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: learn from the mistakes and the challenges that Germany has 133 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: had in balancing all of these different things, keeping the 134 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: climate crisis and the acceleration of it as front and 135 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: center as we possibly can now. One small mover protest 136 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: that you did make was last summer you were critical 137 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: of Chancellor Shoals when he pushed for the G seven 138 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: to allow new gas investments globally. How did that go 139 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: inside the German government? Well, you know, the G seven 140 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: I think made some decisions I think again working to 141 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: try and get clarity on that pledge to not fund 142 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: have public funding go to any fossil fuel new fossil 143 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: fuel developments. You know, we have a robust coalition government 144 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: in Germany and that means that partners speak with each 145 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: other and worked fine solutions. So it went fine. Well. 146 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: Speaking of Ellen, though, you said that climate goals remain 147 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: as they are both for twenty thirty and four twenty 148 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: forty five. However, we also know, you know, when fossil 149 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: fuel assets are built, there can be a real risk 150 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: of lock in because capital, once spent, would like its returns, 151 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: and so do you fear that the LLENG terminals that 152 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: are being brought in would lead to that kind of 153 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: lock in. I think that we have to remain vigilant. 154 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: That's not the intent right now of this government and 155 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: the work. Not only the intent is also to be 156 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: accelerating the pace and scale for green hydrogen to be 157 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: moving and working with, for example, countries in the Nordic region, 158 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: I mean Denmark, Norway, Sweden, etc. They're to be scaling 159 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: up their renewables in order for that infrastructure then to 160 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: be adapted to that. But we know that we always 161 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: remain have to remain vigilant and make sure and have 162 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: transparency and accountability about what decisions are taken and making 163 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: sure that they're stuck to coming up to more international matters. 164 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: The US passed the biggest climate build, the Inflation Reduction Act, 165 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: last year, and that's ramped up treat tensions between the 166 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: US and Europe. Ursula wonder Lane said at Davos that 167 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: the EU should increase funding for clean tech, should the 168 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: EU match the level of subsidies that the US is 169 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: offering two companies investing in clean tech. I mean, look, 170 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: first of all, it is excellent that the United States 171 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: has a law that moves forward on renewable energy, on 172 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: bringing down greenhouse gas emissions, and that is to be welcomed. 173 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: It's been a long time coming, and I think that 174 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: we all have hoped throughout the years that once the 175 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: US does that, it will move quickly and it will 176 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: shift things. And I think that's what's starting to happen. 177 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: And so I think what you're seeing in Europe and 178 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: in our discussions also with the United States, which have 179 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: been good, is how that then can create a race 180 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: to accelerate the research and development, driving down the cost 181 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: the technologies that are needed. What that looks like specifically 182 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: within Europe. I think that's what we'll be working on 183 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: in the coming months, whether it be around the Raw 184 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: Materials Act, whether it be around clean tech. But that's 185 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: the conversation that we're having with the US and driving 186 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: that forward. And you know, I think Europe has incredible 187 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: assets and vision and opportunity for companies and for that growth. 188 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: One thing we've been hearing here from energy CEOs, from 189 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: clean tech venture capital funding bodies is that for them, 190 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: the US has become so much more attractive a because 191 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: it's the US and it's the largest economy, be that 192 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: these subsidies are backed by the US government, seen as 193 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: a completely reliable source of money to get from, and 194 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: see that the regulatory nature of energy industry in general 195 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: is much easier to navigate in the US than it 196 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: is in Europe, which is a market made up of 197 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: twenty seven countries. Against those forces, do you see that 198 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: we are entering an era where there's going to be 199 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: more competition for climate solutions than collaboration. I think that 200 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,479 Speaker 1: there will be both. I think that there will be collaboration. 201 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: You know, if you're looking around, what are the standards 202 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: that need to be set for socially inclusive, environmentally sound 203 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: green hydrogen, I think that's an area that needs to 204 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: have collaboration to make sure that benefits you especially look 205 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: at not only in developing countries, indigenous lands, that type 206 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: of thing. But I also think having a competition to 207 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: drive things faster and bigger scale is not a bad thing. 208 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: And I think that that's a very active discussion now 209 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: in Europe about how we can do that. You know, 210 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: it's kind of like game on. Let's go, let's make 211 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: use this moment in a way to drive things to 212 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: move faster and bigger. The US and Europe were at 213 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: very different levels when it came to acting on climate 214 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: change only twenty four months ago. The US did not 215 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: have this bill. It was years of dragging its feet 216 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: trying to reduce emissions. It still consumes a lot of coal, 217 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: it has a lot of oil and gas reserves in 218 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: its backyard, and so Europe looked like the place where 219 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: the transition will happen faster. But now with what has 220 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: happened with the biggest US climate bill, executives say we 221 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: are not so sure because Europe moves slowly. Is there 222 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: something being done to speed things up to ensure that 223 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: Europe can compete as clean tech industries grow in other 224 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: parts of the world. I guess I wouldn't share your 225 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: characterization because I think that Europe, through the fit for 226 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: fifty five plan, through the emissions trading system that has 227 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: been in place for many years, through the renewable energy 228 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: directives that are there, through the driving of emissions target 229 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: of at least fifty five by twenty thirty, and many 230 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: other measures, I think has been setting the standards and 231 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: I think is better prepared than others because of the 232 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: fact that we're thinking it through on so many different levels. Yes, 233 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: it's good to have incentives coming in a sensives alone 234 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: is the experience and what's shown in the literature is 235 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: not adequate to drive the types of reductions we need. 236 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: We are talking about a having of global emissions in 237 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: seven years, and for that you need to throw every 238 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: tool in the toolbooks that you have, and there I 239 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: think that the different European measures that are there and 240 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: have been tested in a way, it's a mature debate 241 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: that has learned a lot already. Can things move faster, Absolutely, 242 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: and that's why there was a breakthrough recently with Robert Habeck, 243 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: Minister of Economy and Climate in Germany, working to have 244 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: a faster time frame on building wind turbines in Germany. 245 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: I think we have in Europe a lot that other 246 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: countries can learn from because we've had to accelerate the 247 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: learning process. You know, we're in regular dialogue with the US, 248 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: but we're also finding that as Germany and Europe as 249 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: a whole, there's so much curiosity and entrance to work 250 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: with us from emerging economies because we've gone through it, 251 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: because we know what it's like to have a grid 252 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: with forty five percent renewable energy in it, because we've 253 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: had to build up that market, and because we're also 254 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: working to keep our energy intensive industries at home. So 255 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: I think it's a healthy debate. But I think we 256 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: know from what scientists tell us and our own experience 257 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: that you need actually a whole number of different tools 258 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: and policies and measures and incentives as part of that 259 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: to be able to address this also across all sectors. 260 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Jennifer how Germany will meet 261 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: its overseas climate commitments and whether fossil fuel interests are derelncoll. 262 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: One of the roles that you have as representing Germany 263 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: on the international stage is to stand for Germany's contribution 264 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: towards international finance. Now, Germany is supposed to contribute as 265 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: much as six billion euros each year towards this hundred 266 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: billion dollar fund, but so far the government in twenty 267 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: twenty one spent only five point three billion. The gap 268 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: is small relative to other countries, but it is real. 269 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: What is it that you're doing to make sure that 270 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: Germany delivers on its promise? Well, the actually we overachieved 271 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: our target in twenty twenty one because at that point 272 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: it was four and now the Chancellor has made clear 273 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: that we want to move to six and that half 274 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: of that finance should go to adaptation as well, which 275 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: has been a key request of developing countries. What I 276 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: am doing, I think to put it in the broader context, 277 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: meaning one hundred billion is essential, and I worked with 278 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: Minister Guilbo from Canada to try and look at, okay, 279 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: what more can be doing on that in the lead 280 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: up to the COP But what happened, I think at 281 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: the COP and across the board is this recognition of 282 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: the need for reform of international financial institutions. We have 283 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: institutions that were built after the Second World War. They 284 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: are no longer fit for purpose, and Germany is working 285 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: to bring forward proposals into the World Bank and other 286 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: financial institutions to change that so that issues of the 287 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: debt crisis, issues of the gaps between rich and poor, 288 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: the food crisis, the climate crisis are actually much more 289 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: central in how those institutions are working. So that's one 290 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: area where I'm active, where Germany is active with partners 291 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: to try and work that through. And how positive are 292 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: you on that reform? Is bring meeting coming up in April. 293 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: But these are bodies that haven't changed all that much 294 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: in a very long time. At COBB there was a 295 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: broad agreement where every country signed up to wanting a 296 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: reform of multi lateral development banks. How positive value it 297 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: will happen and soon Well, I'm positive that there is 298 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: a greater level of attention and understanding of the problem 299 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: than there has ever been, and I think therefore also 300 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: a greater level of accountability and expectation and commitment of 301 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: governments to work towards it. I think we have to 302 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: work to make sure that it is a transformational change, 303 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: not just an incremental change. And that is a conversation 304 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 1: to have with our partners around the world, because it 305 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: only works, you know, when we all come together with 306 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: that vision as we move forward in these just transitions 307 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: that need to occur around the world, whether it be 308 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: in the energy sector, in the agricultural sector, that matching 309 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: those transitions with the financing packages and the financing tools 310 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: that are required is absolutely fundamental. And so I think 311 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: it's a moment, and I think it comes from the 312 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: fact of the COVID pandemic and the situation the direction 313 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: of so many developing countries that it's no longer possible 314 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: to look away. Sticking to COUP twenty seven, you had 315 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: the loss and damage fund agreed upon. There's no sum 316 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: attached to it. Do you see actual numbers this year 317 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: at COP twenty eight. Well, I think, first of all, 318 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: I think it was a major breakthrough for the most 319 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: vulnerable countries that after thirty years, their demand was met, 320 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: And I think that the European Union played actually an 321 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: important role in meeting that hand, that was reached out 322 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: and asked for, and so now you know, we have 323 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: to get that fund as part of a bigger mosaic. 324 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: We can't forget the mosaic because what that means is, yes, 325 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: there needs to be and will be a fund for 326 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: loss and damage. But actually the commitment was bigger than that. 327 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: The commitment was to look at all the different financial 328 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: institutions in that mosaic or ecosystem to make sure that 329 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: there is coverage for loss and damage across the board. 330 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: And so I think this year the commitment was to 331 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: get that moving, to get that fund established, and then 332 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: I think the big question of who pays is also 333 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: a big part of that question. I mean, it was 334 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: quite clear from the cop conclusions that it's not only 335 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: industrialized countries and it's not only countries. It's clear that 336 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: developed countries need to play a leading role. But working 337 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: that through is a big part of the negotiation as well. 338 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: So whether or not numbers by the end of this year, 339 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I think we need to see what 340 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: the fund looks like, but certainly I mean Germany, as 341 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: of January, the Global Shield is up and running, which 342 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: was an initiative with the Vulnerable twenties. So there is 343 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: a lot happening already. You said not countries, are you 344 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: thinking of private institutions contributing? Well, I think there's different 345 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: ideas that have been kind of put out there for sources. 346 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: The Secretary General, i think, has suggested a windfall profit 347 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: tax on fossil fuel companies. Prime Minister Motley has also 348 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: put out some ideas on that. You there are older 349 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: ideas that have been out there forever about tobin taxes 350 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: and financial transaction and all of these different things. So 351 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: there's advocates looking at private jet tax I mean, so 352 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but it's clear that 353 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: if you look at the damages, we haven't really talked 354 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 1: about the why we're doing all of this. I mean, 355 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: the climate crisis is ravaging through countries and the costs 356 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: are immense. They are immense, and so both getting the 357 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: intergovernmental and the accountability moving through these types of funds 358 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: is important, but then also looking at how they can 359 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: be filled. COP twenty seven happened in Egypt a fossil 360 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: fuel exporter. COP twenty eight will happen in the United 361 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: Arab Emirates. A big fossil fuel exporter. The head of 362 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: COP twenty eight is the head of the state oil company. 363 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: Will two years of fossil fuel friendly COP presidencies delay 364 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: climate action? Well, I mean, I think it's clear that 365 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: COP twenty eight has to have a focus on emissions 366 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: reductions and mitigation, as we say, because we know we 367 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: have seven years to have global emissions and I think 368 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: that the COP president understands that, he understands the science 369 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: has an immense opportunity to be driving things in the 370 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: direction that are needed, as a tremendous opportunity to have 371 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: a very inclusive COP with civil society, experts, business contributing 372 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: to that, and that's how we will engage with them. 373 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: So really, at the end of the day, each of 374 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: these COP presidencies are looked at and judged by the 375 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 1: outcomes that come at the end. And so we're working 376 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: for a COP where we have, you know, a major 377 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: shift on the just transition and the phase out of 378 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: fossil fuels and scale up of renewables, set of finance outcomes, 379 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: adaptation of courses. But if we just look at the 380 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: last few hours at COP twenty seven, there was clearly 381 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: the Loss and Damage Fund on the one side, which 382 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: was a progress that every party wanted, and then there 383 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: was a demand from the EU and other progressive countries 384 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: that that'd be met with mitigation, which in the text, 385 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: but in the end, because the Loss and Damage Fund 386 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: was so important that EU had to tone down or 387 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: walk away from its resistance, we didn't even really get 388 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: a statement at the very end what happened. I think 389 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: that the Executive Vice President Timmerman's spoke as well at 390 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: the end, and he said that the EU had made 391 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: the decision to support the full COP and not walk 392 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: away from it because we understood how important this loss 393 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: and damage fund was for the most vulnerable countries, and 394 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: this fund needs to be for those most vulnerable countries, 395 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: and that we were unsatisfied with the results on mitigation, 396 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: and that to me puts additional pressure on COP twenty 397 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 1: eight to fill that gap. Sure, we maintained the one 398 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: point five goal and the types of emission reductions that 399 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: are needed in the text. Yes, there is new language 400 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: for renewable energy in that text, but the you know 401 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: what we need this year is on fossil fuel, stronger 402 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: language matched with the finance reforms that are needed so 403 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: that countries can phase out while providing and having prosperity 404 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,479 Speaker 1: for their people and taking care of the planet at 405 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: the same time. It's a tall order, but we have 406 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: no choice. I mean, look, the planet is on fire. 407 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: The poorest are suffering immensely, and so I think that 408 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: the incoming cup presidency understands that, and we'll count on 409 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: them to drive us forward in a way that we 410 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: can all feel like we got the whole thing at 411 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: the end. Thank you very much for this conversation. You're 412 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: very welcome. A climate on wise rule is never easy, 413 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: having to balance short term political realities with the long 414 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 1: term need to reduce emissions. Jennifer's position is harder because 415 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: of the geopolitical shock Germany has faced over the last year. 416 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: While she didn't answer many of my questions directly, it 417 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: was a great insight on how she is playing the 418 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: balancing act. Thanks for listening to Zero. If you liked 419 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: this episode, please take a moment to rate and review 420 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, send it to 421 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: a friend, or write it into legislation. If you've got 422 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: a suggestion for a guest or topic or something you 423 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: just want us to look into, get in touch at Zeropod, 424 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot Net zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and 425 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: senior producer is Christine riscoll Our. Theme music is composed 426 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: by Wonderlely Special thanks to Laura Milan, John Ninger, Petra Sorgey, 427 00:25:40,119 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: Olivia Rudgard and Kira bin Rim. I'm Markshatrati back next week.