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Speaker 1: Welcome back to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk

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Speaker 1: with women who dare to pivot out of one career

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Speaker 1: and into something new, and explore how their personal lives

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Speaker 1: impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. In

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Speaker 1: light of recent news, it felt only right to share

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Speaker 1: our episode with Tetiana Podle, the Ukrainian woman who returned

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Speaker 1: home to Ukraine to do her part to help with

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Speaker 1: the war effort.

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Speaker 2: Over these past.

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Speaker 1: Few months, it has felt difficult to grasp into actions

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Speaker 1: that feel meaningful when it seems like everything is out

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Speaker 1: of our hands. While this episode won't repair what is happening,

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Speaker 1: I hope it'll give a face and a voice to

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Speaker 1: the war. On this emotional episode, you'll hear Tetiana recount

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Speaker 1: her personal experience as a Ukrainian civilian volunteer working to

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Speaker 1: help her father's unit on the warfront. She explains her

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Speaker 1: decision to leave her job at Spotify and Silicon Valley

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Speaker 1: to return home to her family and to help in

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Speaker 1: whatever way she could. When I spoke to Tatiana last year,

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Speaker 1: her father was recovering from a serious injury. Now healed,

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Speaker 1: he's received an award from President Zelenski for the defense

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Speaker 1: of Ukraine a huge honor. She has started a venture

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Speaker 1: capital firm founded to source and nurture precede stage defense

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Speaker 1: tech companies with an impact on Ukraine's victory. Links to

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Speaker 1: that will be on our website. I'll let Tatiana and

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Speaker 1: her story speak for itself. Hey, Tetiana, Cajhhi.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Hi see everyone.

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Speaker 1: So good to see you guys. And this is actually

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Speaker 1: my first time seeing you both together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think it's also the time that

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Speaker 3: we've seen each other since Ukraine, like we've spoken.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been a year, right.

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Speaker 1: This is so special and unusual that we can do

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Speaker 1: this episode and have this conversation. We recorded a ton

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Speaker 1: of the conversations with Tatiana when you were in Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: But first, can you just tell me what are your

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Speaker 2: names and what do you do.

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Speaker 5: My name is Pasiana Bodel and I am a legal

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Speaker 5: consul at Spotify.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Kajhuarson.

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Speaker 3: I'm a former Navy seal war correspondent and journalist, and

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Speaker 3: i am the president of the Guild Foundation, where I

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Speaker 3: do philanthropic work.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk with

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Speaker 1: women who dared to pivot out of one career and

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Speaker 1: into something new and explore how their personal lives impact

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Speaker 1: to these decisions. I'm your host Emily Tish Sussman. On

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Speaker 1: this special episode of She Pivots, I had the honor

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Speaker 1: of sitting down with Tetiana Podo, a Ukrainian American who's

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Speaker 1: worked since the start of the Ukraine War as a

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Speaker 1: civilian volunteer. Her story is one of the many untold

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Speaker 1: stories of civilians who have helped defend Ukraine against Russia.

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Speaker 1: After immigrating to America as an attorney, her seemingly normal

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Speaker 1: life working for Spotify was uprooted when Russia invaded and

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Speaker 1: her fifty seven year old father volunteered to serve in

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Speaker 1: the war. Compelled to do her part for her country,

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Speaker 1: Tetiana flew to Ukraine and scraped together what connections and

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Speaker 1: resources she had to help her father's unit. Now over

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Speaker 1: a year after, I am honored to bring her.

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Speaker 2: Story to you.

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Speaker 1: So we just wanted to give a little context to

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Speaker 1: explain how we know each other, or how it was

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Speaker 1: all came to be, how I almost actually went to

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Speaker 1: Ukraine to review you. So it started. It started with

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Speaker 1: Kaj Kaj you and I have known each other for

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Speaker 1: a long time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then, as as per usual for our friendship,

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Speaker 3: I received a random call from you saying that there's

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Speaker 3: this major geo political issue and you know, you're interested

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Speaker 3: in people who might be.

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Speaker 2: Involved and engaged.

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Speaker 3: And honestly, the very first person that came to mind

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Speaker 3: who had such an interesting backstory and was doing such

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Speaker 3: interesting work was Tatiana and we had had the privilege

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Speaker 3: of meeting when I was over in Ukraine. We ended

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Speaker 3: up meeting each other in a cafe in.

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Speaker 4: Leviv, I think.

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Speaker 3: A hotel, hotel where all the international journalists styed.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it was during the early days of the war,

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Speaker 5: I remember, and Cash, I just really want to applaud

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Speaker 5: you because that's when it was very dangerous and very

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Speaker 5: few people were in Ukraine and especially foreign. I just

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Speaker 5: remember you know that we actually were walking during the

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Speaker 5: air race siren and we were looking for a place

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Speaker 5: where we're going to sit and talk and we couldn't

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Speaker 5: and then you said, oh, I know one place, there

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Speaker 5: is this hotel or you can sit during the air

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Speaker 5: rings siren. And I was like, when we walked in there,

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Speaker 5: I felt like I was in a book, you know,

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Speaker 5: like all these war books, except it was reality. I

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Speaker 5: remember we were introduced to each other through mutual connection.

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Speaker 5: Also an American and at the time I was looking

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Speaker 5: for a vest for the vest for my.

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Speaker 4: Dad's unit, and then you offered some help. So that's

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Speaker 4: how we met.

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Speaker 3: And I think, Emily, what's so hard to describe is

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Speaker 3: that's how it was in the beginning of the war,

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Speaker 3: like everybody just moving as fast as they could. You

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Speaker 3: met a random person who knew where some armored vests

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Speaker 3: were being stored, like I had. Tetyana said, like one

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Speaker 3: of the guys from her dad's unit to go check

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Speaker 3: it out, and like, you know, we fought and we

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Speaker 3: bought that war with duct tape and dental floss and

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Speaker 3: that's how we did. But it was just kind of

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Speaker 3: the personal connections between people who cared, and I think

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Speaker 3: that's how our friendship started, and just the serendipity of

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Speaker 3: meeting like minded folks I think was actually, Look, the

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Speaker 3: Ukrainian military is the one who has done the heavy

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Speaker 3: lifting in terms of the combat and the conflict. But

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Speaker 3: I think a lesser told story are these thousands of volunteers,

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Speaker 3: both American veterans, American civilians, American Ukrainian civilians like Tetana,

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Speaker 3: and then international volunteers who have acted as a force

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Speaker 3: multiplier to help that effort.

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Speaker 6: And it's really pretty amazing.

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Speaker 1: So Tatiana, why did you agree to do this interview?

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Speaker 5: It's been a year. You know, maybe it's not on

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Speaker 5: the front page of the news, but for me, it's

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Speaker 5: really horrible. It's still my father is there fighting. You know,

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Speaker 5: It's like you never get used to the fact that

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Speaker 5: every morning people you love are in danger. I don't

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Speaker 5: see that much of like personal stories, you know, of

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Speaker 5: regular people where there is a human face to this

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Speaker 5: whole war. Of course, I understand it's natural for a

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Speaker 5: lot of people. I mean for people in Ukraine. You know,

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Speaker 5: at some point it's just like so horrible that your

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Speaker 5: psyche is learning to adapt to this, right, but it's

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Speaker 5: still horrible and it's still going on, and I feel

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Speaker 5: it's really still important to talk about it, talk about regular.

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Speaker 4: People who are living with this.

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Speaker 5: And you know, I'm just a person among many many people.

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Speaker 5: I'm just like an example of many many people. Because

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Speaker 5: I think this war is really a team effort, a

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Speaker 5: team effort of Ukrainian society.

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Speaker 4: This is our fight together.

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Speaker 5: Russian invasion of Ukraine is underway.

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Speaker 2: War in Ukraine has started large scale military drills this morning.

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Speaker 7: And this is a very dangerous moment, stooking fears of

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Speaker 7: an invasion. More than two thousand Ukrainian troops are proving

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Speaker 7: to be a tough underdog, clawing back territory from Russia.

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Speaker 4: So much, it's just like, no fear.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't feel anything insident.

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Speaker 1: On February twenty fourth, twenty twenty two, Russia invaded Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: another attack after nearly a century of ongoing strife between

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Speaker 1: the two countries, and Tatiana watched from Silicon Valley as

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Speaker 1: her home country fell into chaos. She was there just

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Speaker 1: ten days earlier, driving through Kiev with her father.

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Speaker 5: And I remember when I was driving through Kiev, I was.

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Speaker 2: Like, is it possible. It's going to be worse. It's

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Speaker 2: not possible.

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Speaker 5: Look at this, Like, look at this shopping mall is

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Speaker 5: so beautiful, of this building.

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Speaker 1: The life that she had built with her husband in

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Speaker 1: America was about to change forever. After moving to California

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Speaker 1: to gain her Masters of Law from UC Berkeley, Tatiana

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Speaker 1: had a quiet but normal life in America. What brought

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Speaker 1: her here was an intense interest in democracy that came

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Speaker 1: from her childhood and made the war all the more

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Speaker 1: personal to her.

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Speaker 5: I've been always very passionate about the rule of law,

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Speaker 5: legal system, democracy, all of these values. I grew up

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Speaker 5: in bos Soviet Ukraine, but it was in independent Ukraine.

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Speaker 5: I always like to say that you know Ukraine and

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Speaker 5: I we are.

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Speaker 4: The same age.

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Speaker 5: It was definitely hard times in terms of poverty, but

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Speaker 5: I also don't know anything else than Ukraine.

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Speaker 4: It was my country, so.

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Speaker 2: Were people in the US.

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Speaker 1: What did poverty in a post Soviet world look like

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Speaker 1: when you're growing up.

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Speaker 5: Well, the story my dad likes to tell is that

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Speaker 5: when I was born, they couldn't get a blas for me.

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Speaker 5: So they stood in lines waiting to buy a blanket

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Speaker 5: for hours and days, and I think some highway they

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Speaker 5: got it. So I do remember Paulverty in a way

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Speaker 5: that there was not much choice.

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Speaker 1: Tetyana clearly remembers the constraints of post Soviet Ukraine from

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Speaker 1: her childhood and later saw the benefits of that freedom

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Speaker 1: for her sister, who's twelve years younger. Those memories, combined

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Speaker 1: with the stories of her grandparents and great grandparents reminded

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Speaker 1: her that there's so much at stake in this war.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it's something very painful. And the stories that I

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Speaker 5: didn't really like to listen to, you know, when I

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Speaker 5: was little, because they are very, very heartbreaking. So I

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Speaker 5: sort of started remembering them when the war started. And

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Speaker 5: you know how my grandmother she just like, when the

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Speaker 5: war started, my grandmother was like, oh, this happened again.

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Speaker 5: They did this to us when we were little. She

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Speaker 5: actually died this year, she was eighty nine. So she

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Speaker 5: said she experienced the Soviets coming to Ukraine and her

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Speaker 5: family they used to have a lot of land and

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Speaker 5: the house and they were disowned everything and they were

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Speaker 5: put into a stable while the Russians, you know, we

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Speaker 5: lived in their house, and some of her siblings actually

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Speaker 5: died because they froze to death and were hungry.

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Speaker 4: So it's all sort of muddled in my head.

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Speaker 5: But I know for a fact that some of my

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Speaker 5: great grandparents were in Russian concentration camps gulags. That's where

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Speaker 5: they prosecuted Ukrainians and they called them nationalists because they

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Speaker 5: spoke Ukrainian. So, you know, recently a lot of country

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Speaker 5: recognize what Ukraine went through in nineteen thirty two, So

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Speaker 5: it was an artificial servation. And basically it was not

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Speaker 5: the only one. So there were multiple ones, and they're

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Speaker 5: called holodo more, which is means death by starvation.

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Speaker 8: This is the story of the Holodomore, a man made

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Speaker 8: famine and the worst that Ukraine has ever seen.

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Speaker 9: Famine hit several parts of the Soviet Union from nineteen

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Speaker 9: thirty two to nineteen thirty three, but in Ukraine it

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Speaker 9: became known as the Holodomore, a term meaning death by starvation.

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Speaker 9: It was genocide carried out by a dictator who wanted

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Speaker 9: to keep Ukraine under his control.

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Speaker 5: And my great grandmother she was started to death and

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Speaker 5: that's how she died. So she's just like one of

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Speaker 5: the examples of many millions. I think it's like just alone.

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Speaker 5: In nineteen thirty two, it was six.

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Speaker 4: Million people who died, you know. Then also my.

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Speaker 5: Grandmother died in June, was also she was you know,

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Speaker 5: she was grieving for my dad.

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Speaker 4: For her, it was a shock.

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Speaker 5: Basically, she stopped eating and I think I think she

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Speaker 5: was just she died of because she felt so sad

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Speaker 5: and depressed, and I guess that's why Ukrainians are now

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Speaker 5: so resistant to this and fighting because they know this

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Speaker 5: has happened already in the past, and then the history

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Speaker 5: repeated itself.

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Speaker 8: We have gunfire and explosions have been heard here and

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Speaker 8: in the second city of Kharkiv. Shortly after the Russian

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Speaker 8: President Vladimir Putin authorized a special military operation in Ukraine's Donbas.

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Speaker 7: Russia overnight launched its long anticipated attack on Ukraine, striking

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Speaker 7: military post across the country. An unprovoked war in Europe

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Speaker 7: is now under way.

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Speaker 1: Soon she was back on a plane to Eastern Europe

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Speaker 1: to be with her family after putting in a request

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Speaker 1: for leave to Spotify, which they granted to support.

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Speaker 2: Her efforts from there.

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Speaker 1: She had no idea the impact she would have coordinating

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Speaker 1: housing for refugees and the movement of supplies to her father,

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Speaker 1: who served as the deputy commander in Ukraine's Territorial Defense

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Speaker 1: Forces since the start of the war.

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Speaker 3: And look, in the beginning, it was really really terrifying.

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Speaker 3: There was active conflict and combat. You know, we were

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Speaker 3: rescuing hundreds of people a day, helping them get out,

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Speaker 3: all women and children from Ukraine from the east to

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Speaker 3: pull into safety into other European countries.

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Speaker 5: When I got to Ukraine, it was spring. It was

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Speaker 5: about March or April. My husband and I we flew

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Speaker 5: from the US to Poland. It was like we wanted

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Speaker 5: to get my mom and sister out of Ukraine.

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Speaker 4: That was like the most dangerous times.

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Speaker 5: Our hometown was getting bombed many times, and also Belarus

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Speaker 5: wanted to invade av.

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Speaker 4: Reigion at that time.

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Speaker 5: And it was the first time I saw Ukraine during

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Speaker 5: war times, because the last time I was in Ukraine

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Speaker 5: it was in February and it was just before the war,

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Speaker 5: so you know, like the atmosphere was very intense. People

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Speaker 5: didn't know what to expect. We heard all of these

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Speaker 5: news from the US and other countries that there might

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Speaker 5: be an imminent war. People didn't believe that there would

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Speaker 5: be a war.

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Speaker 6: From a national security perspective. There were a lot of

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Speaker 6: indicators prior to the invasion that Russia was going to

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Speaker 6: cross the line into Ukraine. There was intelligence reports, there

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Speaker 6: was troop movement, and there was of course the historical

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Speaker 6: context of what had happened in the Don Boston twenty

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Speaker 6: fourteen and the annexation of Krimea. Despite all of those indicators,

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Speaker 6: I think even among the community of national security professionals,

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Speaker 6: there was sort of a psychological disbelief that there could

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Speaker 6: be another major shooting war on the European continent.

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Speaker 10: Marking his first full year in office, mister Biden predicted

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Speaker 10: President Putin would move in on Ukraine, but said he

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Speaker 10: didn't think Moscow wanted a full blown war. Our Washington

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Speaker 10: correspondent Gary o' donahue.

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Speaker 11: Reports his troops have essentially surrounded Ukraine on three sides.

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Speaker 11: As many as one hundred thousand are stationed near the

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Speaker 11: border in Russia and Crimea, and now troops and fighter

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Speaker 11: jets have been sent to Belarus to stage military exercises

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Speaker 11: on Ukraine's northern border.

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Speaker 10: The invasion began on February twenty fourth.

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Speaker 8: For months, Russia had been massing troops on Ukraine's border.

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Speaker 2: Were people do they feel caught off guard?

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Speaker 1: Even though you've been, you know, semi thinking that Russia

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Speaker 1: may move in since twenty fourteen, did it still feel surprising?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 5: I think it was surprising to all of us. Do

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Speaker 5: you know, even in February, as we all read the

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Speaker 5: news about the plans, you know, of Russia to invade Ukraine.

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Speaker 5: I was in Ukraine on the February thirteenth, so okay,

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Speaker 5: ten days before the war. I was supposed to leave

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Speaker 5: Ukraine on February twentieth, but I moved my ticket to

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Speaker 5: February thirteenth because our airspace was being closed.

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Speaker 1: When the war started, Russia invaded from almost all fronts,

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Speaker 1: targeting cities across Ukraine. After the airspace closed, the only

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Speaker 1: way to get in or out was to cross the border.

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Speaker 1: But with active war zones throughout the country, she had

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Speaker 1: to be strategic.

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Speaker 3: But there's no playbook for how you enter a war zone.

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Speaker 3: You just have to figure it out. In those days,

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Speaker 3: it was the wild wild West, literally the wild wall

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Speaker 3: western Ukraine, and you had everybody like transitting in and

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Speaker 3: out to help.

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Speaker 5: When I came back, the airspace over Ukraine was closed.

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Speaker 5: The only way to come to Ukraine was through Poland by.

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Speaker 4: Car or by bus.

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Speaker 5: And there were not so many people entering Ukraine at

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Speaker 5: the time. It was like people were exiting Ukraine.

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Speaker 4: There were lines.

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Speaker 1: How did you know even those steps of how to

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Speaker 1: cross the border.

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Speaker 5: The actual crossing the border was just the same. We

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Speaker 5: just gave out a passport and they stamped out a passports,

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Speaker 5: so you know what the situation on the border also changed,

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Speaker 5: and I was at that border many many times. So

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Speaker 5: the first time I was at the border during times

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Speaker 5: war times was in early March when I came to

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Speaker 5: the Polish border from the Polish side to bring my

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Speaker 5: mom and sister to Nobody was entring Ukraine and everybody

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Speaker 5: was leaving and there were a lot of people. Well

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Speaker 5: I was very shocked, honestly, so it was very very cold.

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Speaker 5: My mom and sister were standing in line. There were

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Speaker 5: so so many people and like you know, all the

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Speaker 5: humanitarian aid and clothes everything and like food, all of

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Speaker 5: these things like that normally didn't like weren't there during

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Speaker 5: normal times. At that time, Ukraine allowed Ukrainians to cross

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Speaker 5: the border on foot. That's not normal so at that time,

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Speaker 5: because there were so many Ukrainians, so my mom and

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Speaker 5: sister were waiting like maybe like five hours or so.

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Speaker 5: So my mom and sister just had like literally backpack,

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Speaker 5: so we had nothing. So they crossed the border and

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Speaker 5: we had no idea at that point if they would

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Speaker 5: be returning to Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: At the time, the goal was simply to get her

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Speaker 1: mom and sister out quickly, not knowing what would happen. Next, Tatiana,

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Speaker 1: her mom, and her sister spent three weeks in Poland.

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Speaker 1: After the situation changed, they decided it was time to

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Speaker 1: enter Ukraine. Tediana's first time seeing it since the war started.

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Speaker 5: At that time, like the border was like almost empty,

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Speaker 5: nobody was there. So that's when I entered Ukraine.

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Speaker 4: When we returned to Ukraine, you know.

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Speaker 5: The first thing I saw was like maybe like once

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Speaker 5: we passed the border, I saw a military checkpoint and

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Speaker 5: that's where I realized, oh wow, this like there is war,

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Speaker 5: you know in Ukraine, and it's just like all the

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Speaker 5: streets I know so well. And then it's like, you know,

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Speaker 5: I'm like driving through the country and I'm like, oh wow,

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Speaker 5: so people are just like walking on the streets, so that's.

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Speaker 4: Kind of normal.

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Speaker 5: But then I'm like, oh, but then there is this

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Speaker 5: billboard and the billboard features Russian soldiers, and the billboard

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Speaker 5: is like, oh, Russian occupant, you have nothing to find

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Speaker 5: in Ukraine, you know, like just go back, go back

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Speaker 5: to Russia. I remember my dad picked us up, so

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Speaker 5: it was me, my mom, and my sister, and there

355
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Speaker 5: was also an American ex marine. I was like, I remember,

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Speaker 5: I wanted to buy something at the gas station and

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Speaker 5: my dad is like, oh, it cannot buy a guest

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Speaker 5: like anything right now because there is an.

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Speaker 4: Air raid siren.

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Speaker 5: And then that evening we just drew to our house

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Speaker 5: and it was crazy because my mom hasn't been in

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Speaker 5: our house since the beginning of the war, and we

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Speaker 5: weren't like, like it was very emotional. We thought we

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Speaker 5: would never see our house again.

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Speaker 1: During this time, Tetiana's family had two Americans staying with

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Speaker 1: them who were there to help with the war.

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Speaker 2: Guests. In her mother's eyes.

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Speaker 5: We had that also American guest, like you know, staying

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Speaker 5: with us for two days or something. And my mom

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Speaker 5: was like what she started doing, She started like cleaning,

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Speaker 5: She started cleaning everything. And the crazy thing I also

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Speaker 5: remember about the evening was like we were like serving everything,

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Speaker 5: like food and everything and everything like kind of looks

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Speaker 5: also normal. But then at that time, like there is

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Speaker 5: like a real a rate siren that you can hear,

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Speaker 5: like I could hear.

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Speaker 1: The juxtaposition of having this almost normal feeling evening, like

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Speaker 1: hosting gas in your home with the beginning of a

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Speaker 1: war outside.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's what still puzzles me, Okay, because some

381
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Speaker 5: people say, oh, like Ukraine, there is just like a

382
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Speaker 5: normal life here, and to some extent, yes, that's how

383
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 5: people stay saying, you know, like go see their family

384
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Speaker 5: or go buy food, right, so that's kind of normal.

385
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Speaker 5: But then all the other things are totally not normal

386
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Speaker 5: because I'll tell you, you know, I go to the

387
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Speaker 5: city center and there is like this cathedral, there's a

388
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Speaker 5: priest and there's a ceremony for dad soldiers from our region.

389
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Speaker 5: So and you can like you're walking on the street

390
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 5: and hear their name. You know, it's like life, I'm

391
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Speaker 5: walking through the city and there's somebody dad to fighting,

392
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Speaker 5: your know, for all of us to have this normal life.

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Speaker 5: So that's how I would describe this the reality in Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: Tatiana was doing her best to do her part to

395
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Speaker 1: help in the war and first started to help refugees

396
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 1: find living accommodations all over Europe.

397
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Speaker 5: I remember I was like just writing to all of

398
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Speaker 5: my friends like, oh, I have this person, can you

399
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 5: please host them in Sweden? And then my coworker from

400
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 5: Spotify and Munich also hosted somebody in Munich. It was

401
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 5: such a huge startup and I think this is for

402
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 5: all Ukrainians. I just write on Facebook something like oh,

403
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 5: I need somebody to buy this and to pick up

404
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 5: something there. And then surrandomly some Ukrainian in Frankfort would

405
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 5: go to Frankfort and pick up, like, I don't know,

406
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 5: something like some T shirts and drive them to Ukraine.

407
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Speaker 5: As I was in Poland, I was very busy with

408
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Speaker 5: all of this.

409
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Speaker 1: Soon it became clear there was more to do, and

410
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: she began procuring any and all supplies needed for her

411
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Speaker 1: father's unit. It started with a grassroots effort to raise

412
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: thirteen thousand dollars to deliver over one hundred pairs of

413
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Speaker 1: combat boots to the front line.

414
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Speaker 5: So the story with the boots was like, oh, my godmother.

415
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 5: She had business partner from whom she bought shoes because

416
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 5: she is in this business of you know, she sells

417
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 5: sportswear in Ukraine. My dad's unit needed that, and she

418
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 5: was like, Okay, I'm just going to buy those boots

419
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Speaker 5: from him, but I need money. So my husband and

420
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Speaker 5: I were raising money to buy boots from my dad's

421
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Speaker 5: You need.

422
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Speaker 1: And when you started raising money to buy boots and

423
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Speaker 1: buy armor for your father's unit, did you just do

424
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Speaker 1: that all on your own or was there a sense

425
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Speaker 1: of within the Ukrainian network of people saying hey, this

426
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: is needed, can people go out and get us supplies?

427
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 5: Was more like through talking to my dad or to

428
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Speaker 5: the commanders.

429
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Speaker 4: Okay, I asked all of my.

430
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Speaker 5: Friends in my network, and they just like, you know,

431
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 5: sent money directly to the merchant and then you know,

432
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 5: my godmother picked it up.

433
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Speaker 4: And then but.

434
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Speaker 5: For something else, it was also like okay, we need

435
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 5: to buy this from somebody, and somebody just like so

436
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 5: it wasn't like through some organization, and every project was

437
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 5: just had a different structure, different people. Like for example,

438
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 5: I went to some of the Ukraine Now meetings. It's

439
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 5: one of the NGOs with a lot of volunteers, and

440
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 5: I just said, oh, I'm here in the Boloin region.

441
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 5: My dad is in you know, in the Ukrainian army,

442
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Speaker 5: and they need this and that.

443
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 4: And then some.

444
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 5: Lady was like, oh, sure, I can just bring a

445
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 5: lot of helmets to him, and I'm like great.

446
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: Her father is one of the highest in command. But

447
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: before running the Territorial Defense Forces, he was a well

448
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: known journalist in Ukraine, famous for his sharp criticism of

449
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: the government.

450
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 5: My dad he also pivoted and he was a real

451
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 5: like pivot because he is a journalist. You know, all

452
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 5: of his life he's been a journalist in Ukraine. He

453
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 5: is like a chief editor of a regional newspaper and

454
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 5: worked for many other newspapers, and he got a lot

455
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 5: of awards in Ukraine. There is something like a recognized

456
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 5: journalism in Ukraine is like the highest award professional award

457
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 5: in Ukraine. And he's also part of multiple organizations, nonprofit

458
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 5: organizations that work a lot with international media outlets.

459
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: So he had never been in the military before.

460
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,959
Speaker 5: No, but like you know, he's been forcefully drafted as

461
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 5: all citizens of Soviet Union, he's been drafted, and you know,

462
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 5: he was in Siberia and he's still traumatized from those times.

463
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 4: He still he knows how Russia is.

464
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 5: He when sometimes he tells the stories, it's pretty horrifying.

465
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: This was during the time when Ukraine was a republic

466
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union.

467
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 5: He was a child, he was eighteen years old. All

468
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 5: male citizens of the Soviet Union were forced to like

469
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 5: you know, like I don't even know military service or something. Yeah,

470
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 5: So he's like a regular citizen and just like within

471
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 5: the last year he joined the Territory of Defense unit.

472
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: Since we recorded this interview. Tediana's father suffered an injury

473
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: to both hands that required surgery. Tetiana contacted me to

474
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: try to use American contacts to get him sent back home,

475
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: but wars relentless, so they sent him back to the

476
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: front without time for proper surgery.

477
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 5: He continued serving, he does still have some health concerns,

478
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 5: and I guess it was for me very surprising when

479
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 5: he got redeployed, because we were hoping he would go

480
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 5: through surgery. But exactly during the week when he was

481
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 5: supposed to go to the doctor, they his unit suddenly

482
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 5: got redeployed to the east, And that was like really hard.

483
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 4: For me and shocking.

484
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 5: You know, he's been serving honorably for about a year.

485
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 5: You know, he's also a senior guy, fifty seven years old.

486
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 5: You know, so I don't see I almost never see him.

487
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,479
Speaker 5: I asked my dad, Oh, so where are you? I

488
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 5: know that here somewhere, but like some approximately where, but

489
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 5: like I don't know really where.

490
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 4: He doesn't tell us.

491
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: You know, did you feel safe when you went there

492
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: the few times that you did go to the unit.

493
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 4: Yes, I did.

494
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 5: I felt like because there's no active combat here in

495
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 5: our region, and we're quite close to to Belarus, but

496
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 5: it didn't feel that bad, you know.

497
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 6: Dorus is actually an important strategic component of the Russian

498
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 6: invasion of Ukraine. First, you have the historically close relationship

499
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 6: between Belarusian President Lukashenko and Vladimir Putin. They are allies,

500
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 6: and there was always a concern going back to the

501
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 6: very early days of the war that the presence of

502
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 6: Russian troops and Russian military equipment in Belarus meant that

503
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 6: there could be an invasion from the north. There was

504
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 6: also always and still present to this day, the threat

505
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 6: that Belarus would join the Russian coalition and invade from

506
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,719
Speaker 6: the northern part of Ukraine. This is really strategically significant

507
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 6: because it's always forced the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense in

508
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 6: the Ukrainian military to pay special attention to the northern

509
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 6: border with Belarus and divide the focus of their efforts

510
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 6: and their resources just in case that happened. Additionally, it

511
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 6: had pretty severe psychological consequences for the Ukrainian people. The

512
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 6: Ukrainian population that live in the regions close to the

513
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 6: Belarusian border, they have always lived and to this day

514
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 6: under the threat of the idea that there could be

515
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 6: an invasion from their neighbors to the north.

516
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 5: Well, because Kiva region and the north was invaded through Belarus.

517
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,719
Speaker 5: All of the rockets are flying from Belarus, and there

518
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 5: are Russian troops on the border between Ukraine and Belarus,

519
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 5: and basically what's happening. There are Russian troops very close by.

520
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 5: So that's why our region is like a lot of

521
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 5: people are scared. So the thing is that even internal migration,

522
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 5: if you look at my internal migration, a lot of

523
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 5: people from eastern part of Ukraine migrated to western part,

524
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 5: but not so many to my region exactly because of

525
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 5: the wader with Belarus, and there were like everybody was

526
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,479
Speaker 5: scared of invasion from Belarus that they would just do

527
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 5: the same they did in Kiev and Chernihiv region.

528
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 12: The Belarus Ukraine border has been a strategic location for

529
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 12: Russia since it's invaded Ukraine a year ago. One of

530
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 12: the Russian leaders staunchest allies, Alexander Lukashenka of Belarus, has

531
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 12: told the BBC he'd be willing to allow Russia to

532
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 12: launch a fresh ground assault from his country.

533
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 5: I could divide this last six months to like three stages.

534
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 5: Like first stage was like I had like it was

535
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 5: a shock, but like also a lot of energy. I

536
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 5: was like, I don't know what happened to me, but

537
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 5: I was like, oh now I'm going to fight, like

538
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 5: I'm going to do whatever it takes. So I didn't sleep,

539
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 5: and I was working and doing everything the same like

540
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 5: you know, when I came here, I was very very active,

541
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 5: and then at some point I was depressed. I was depressed.

542
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 5: I felt apathy. I just wanted to cry all the time.

543
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 5: I couldn't just understand what's going on when I saw,

544
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 5: you know, what's happening to Ukraine, how it's getting destroyed,

545
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 5: you know, and every day there's like all of the

546
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 5: stare act. There is only as much you can take.

547
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 5: And at some point it was like I just couldn't function.

548
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 5: And the third one, I just like started like slowly

549
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 5: returning to normal life, if you can say, in normal

550
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 5: life by doing just like this normal things. You know,

551
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 5: I'm meeting with friends and slowly just like okay, now

552
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 5: I can focus. I used to read so much and

553
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 5: I couldn't read. I started drawing. It also helped me,

554
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 5: I don't know, painting and also helped me emotionally, so

555
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 5: you know, it's just like slowly returning to the times

556
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 5: before the war. But of course it's like it's something

557
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 5: that we'll never forget. Everybody knows somebody who died.

558
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 4: Everybody.

559
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 5: It's like this war is really real for all of us.

560
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 4: But people are not scared.

561
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 5: If anything, people are very committed to victory.

562
00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 4: It's like people grieve.

563
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 5: Whenever something bad happens. It feels personal. I don't know,

564
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 5: when they drink the toast and they say to victory,

565
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 5: to victory.

566
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: Tetiana, thank you so much for joining us and for

567
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: sharing so much with us.

568
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: We really appreciate it and thank you.

569
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: It was a true honor to interview Tetuana over the

570
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: course of six months. She has since left Ukraine after

571
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 1: her leave from Spotify ended, and is living in London.

572
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: Tetiana continues to do her part in the war effort

573
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: and to help her family. Over the course of these

574
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: six months, much has changed on the Ukraine front, and

575
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: hopefully more change will come soon. Since the start of

576
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: the war over a year ago, Ukraine has put up

577
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 1: a hard fight, something Russia did not expect when they

578
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: first attacked. Their unjust and unprovoked actions are against international

579
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: norms and through the support of people like Tatiana, the

580
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: country continues to hold its own. If you're able to give,

581
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: please consider donating. We have on our Instagram at she

582
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: pivots the Podcast. Thanks for listening to this episode of

583
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 1: she Pivots. I hope you enjoyed it, and if you did,

584
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: leave us a rating and tell your friends about us.

585
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: To learn more about our guests, follow us on Instagram

586
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: at she pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our

587
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: newsletter where you can get exclusive behind the scenes content

588
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: on our website at she pivots thepodcast dot com. Special

589
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: thanks to the she pivots team, Executive producer Emily Edavlosk,

590
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: Associate producer and social media connoisseur Hannah Cousins, Research director

591
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: Christine Dickinson, Events and logistics coordinator Madeline Snovak, and audio

592
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 1: editor and mixer Nina Pollock I en Yourse t pivots