1
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,000
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

2
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,960
Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

3
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:09,559
Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

4
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800
Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

5
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,400
Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

6
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,799
Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

7
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,640
Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

8
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,239
Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

9
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

10
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,639
Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

11
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,360
Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

12
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

13
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 2: This is buried Bones.

14
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,120
Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you?

15
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,160
Speaker 2: I'm doing well. I think you should give the summary

16
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,959
Speaker 2: of the Freeway Phantom Killer, because people love it when

17
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,600
Speaker 2: you do the summary. They like it when I do

18
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:14,600
Speaker 2: the summary, but they love it when you do the summary.

19
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,160
Speaker 2: I choose, I think I choose what to be offended by.

20
00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,679
Speaker 2: I'm not offended by that, So why don't you do

21
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,760
Speaker 2: the heavy lift and do our summary for everyone?

22
00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,800
Speaker 3: At the point we left off last last time, we

23
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,720
Speaker 3: have an offender that apparently has been abducting and killing

24
00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,399
Speaker 3: younger black girls. Ranging in age from r fly ten

25
00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:43,360
Speaker 3: up to sixteen years old. He appears to be contacting

26
00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,240
Speaker 3: the victims while they're on foot, like they've been sent

27
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,720
Speaker 3: to go to the store, whether it be a Safeway

28
00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,680
Speaker 3: grocery store or like a seven to eleven convenience store.

29
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,279
Speaker 3: Appears that some of the victims are possibly taken back

30
00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,280
Speaker 3: to a residence or maybe a work location or some

31
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,880
Speaker 3: place where he is holding them captive for a period

32
00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 3: of time. He is killing them through strangulation, whether manual strangulation,

33
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,680
Speaker 3: ligature strangulation, or a combination of both. Appears that he

34
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,200
Speaker 3: is consistently redressing these victims, so they are found with

35
00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,480
Speaker 3: their clothes on. Most of the victims. Three of the

36
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,000
Speaker 3: four victims don't have their shoes on when their bodies

37
00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 3: are found, and then the fourth victim has shoes on,

38
00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,320
Speaker 3: with another shoe left behind, and authorities think that that

39
00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,120
Speaker 3: other shoe possibly belonged to the second victim, which is

40
00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,800
Speaker 3: a very interesting aspect. There's no question that these are

41
00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 3: sexually motivated crimes, and these crimes appear to be taking

42
00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:52,840
Speaker 3: place in the general d C Upper Maryland area. How's

43
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,160
Speaker 3: that you did? Great?

44
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:56,720
Speaker 2: A couple of interesting points, and I know, you want

45
00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,799
Speaker 2: to talk about the apparent killer. Ledge killer has been

46
00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:05,560
Speaker 2: calling a couple of the families, and he allowed Brenda,

47
00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,240
Speaker 2: one of the victims, to call her family too, which

48
00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,040
Speaker 2: we said was pretty unusual. It feels like the discoveries

49
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,160
Speaker 2: versus the kidnappings are getting closer and closer together. So,

50
00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,079
Speaker 2: you know, we remember Darlinia was so decomposed they really,

51
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,320
Speaker 2: you know, couldn't even identify how she was killed. And

52
00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,440
Speaker 2: then we have, you know, the third victim, Brenda, who

53
00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 2: went missing on July twenty seventh, and then her body

54
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,399
Speaker 2: was found the next day. That might have just been

55
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 2: luck because it was in a grassy shoulder of Root fifty.

56
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,080
Speaker 2: And then the last victim that we've talked about, who

57
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,800
Speaker 2: is Nino. You know, she was discovered a little more

58
00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,280
Speaker 2: than an hour and a half after she was last

59
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,200
Speaker 2: seen getting into a blue car. And we seem to

60
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,040
Speaker 2: be getting more details, like a blue Volkswagen with a

61
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,240
Speaker 2: yellow stripe is pretty specific. So it feels like they're

62
00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 2: getting closer. But how many more kids are going to

63
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,920
Speaker 2: have to die for them to figure out who is

64
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:02,480
Speaker 2: doing this?

65
00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,080
Speaker 3: Right? You know? And I think when it comes to

66
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 3: you know, where he's placing the bodies. You know, they're

67
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,880
Speaker 3: not being placed too far off the road. And you

68
00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,640
Speaker 3: think about some of the younger kids. They're not going

69
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,719
Speaker 3: to be huge individuals. They're not going to be a

70
00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,240
Speaker 3: lot of weight. So I'm assuming an adult man would

71
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,880
Speaker 3: be able to if he needed to, really you know,

72
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,880
Speaker 3: carry them off the beaten paths, so to speak, to

73
00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,640
Speaker 3: further hide the body. He's really not hiding the bodies,

74
00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,240
Speaker 3: you know, he's doing what I call a dump and

75
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,840
Speaker 3: run with these bodies. That may just be out of

76
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,960
Speaker 3: risk management, not wanting to you know, loiter too long

77
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,039
Speaker 3: where he's dumping the bodies, but also there is a

78
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,920
Speaker 3: chance that he's really wanting these bodies to be found.

79
00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,920
Speaker 3: And we know he makes a phone call to I

80
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,599
Speaker 3: think it was in the second case, on the Darlinia case,

81
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,120
Speaker 3: and he's making a phone call saying, you know, I've

82
00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,360
Speaker 3: killed this girl and her body is in this general area.

83
00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,880
Speaker 3: Just took law enforcement like eleven days to finally find her,

84
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 3: and she had been dumped right next to hers first

85
00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 3: victim had been dumped basically yeah.

86
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,599
Speaker 2: Yeah. In Darlinia's case, he called the mother and said

87
00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,839
Speaker 2: I killed your daughter, and then he threatened Dorothy Wheeler,

88
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 2: who was a community organizer. And then Brenda, the third victim,

89
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,520
Speaker 2: calls home twice, and we have so far not heard

90
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,440
Speaker 2: anything about Nino the fourth victim, but we are going

91
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 2: to be coming up on a fifth victim where we

92
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,159
Speaker 2: took a slight detour from what we've seen before, and

93
00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,159
Speaker 2: then we actually have some good pictures for you to

94
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,799
Speaker 2: look at. I think. Okay, so they make no forward

95
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,680
Speaker 2: motion on Nino Yates, the twelve year old who had

96
00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 2: been seen about an hour and a half before they

97
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,320
Speaker 2: discover her body, and she had been dry and it

98
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,760
Speaker 2: was raining. So this feels like it's getting closer and closer.

99
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,440
Speaker 2: We had already talked about the man exposing himself. It

100
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,240
Speaker 2: seems like a different person. You don't know, but this

101
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,960
Speaker 2: seems pretty for a killer who is in some ways

102
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,119
Speaker 2: seeking a lot of risks by what you just said,

103
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,719
Speaker 2: you know, leaving these girls in areas where they're going

104
00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 2: to be found. But at the same time he seems

105
00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,039
Speaker 2: to be you know, he's washing them and some of

106
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,400
Speaker 2: them and he's trying to be clever at the same time.

107
00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,560
Speaker 2: So it's unusual, I know. Let's get to the next incident.

108
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:27,400
Speaker 2: What we have, Okay, So when Nino is kidnapped. That

109
00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:33,240
Speaker 2: is October first, and we have a month where nothing happens,

110
00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,400
Speaker 2: and they try to investigate, and I said, at this

111
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,760
Speaker 2: point the FBI is involved. So on November sixteenth, we're

112
00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,360
Speaker 2: still in nineteen seventy one. It is four forty five

113
00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,159
Speaker 2: in the morning, and there is another young black girl

114
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,920
Speaker 2: who is found off of Route two oh two near

115
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:56,800
Speaker 2: Prince George's County Hospital. This girl's body is lying face up,

116
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,040
Speaker 2: her eyes are open, her arms are straight out with

117
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,760
Speaker 2: the right arm thrown over her head. Okay, she is

118
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,520
Speaker 2: fully clothed. She has her shoes on, although her clothes

119
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,800
Speaker 2: are in a state of disarray. Her sweater is inside

120
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,320
Speaker 2: out and there is a hole in the front of

121
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 2: the sweater. Her skirt is not zipped. There are buttons

122
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,640
Speaker 2: missing from her skirt and her dark coat. Her wig

123
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,960
Speaker 2: she was wearing a wig is abandoned in a median

124
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 2: about thirty yards from her body. So I have photos.

125
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,920
Speaker 2: Photo one is going to point to the area where

126
00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,000
Speaker 2: she was found, so this is off Route two o two,

127
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 2: and then the second photo shows where her wig is found.

128
00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 3: Okay, So the first photo is an aerial photo taken

129
00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,760
Speaker 3: of the freeway it's showing an interchange, and there is

130
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,840
Speaker 3: what I'm assuming the hospital and the backdrop, and then

131
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,800
Speaker 3: the there's a large arrow that is pointing at a

132
00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:09,160
Speaker 3: location right next to it's a curved area of the

133
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,400
Speaker 3: street that's not feeding directly up onto the freeway. So

134
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,000
Speaker 3: that curved area of the street goes down to what

135
00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,040
Speaker 3: appears to be a primary a very large road, but

136
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,360
Speaker 3: not a freeway, or at least it almost looks like

137
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,240
Speaker 3: it says it's Route two oh two, So this is

138
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,400
Speaker 3: sort of like a road. Where her body was found

139
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,480
Speaker 3: is just right off of a pretty major road, but

140
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:41,320
Speaker 3: it's not a prime marterial road. It almost looks like

141
00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:47,240
Speaker 3: the area where her body was deposited is possibly it's

142
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,440
Speaker 3: there's a forested, hilly area in that area, but along

143
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 3: the stretch where her body's found looks like it's mostly

144
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:59,319
Speaker 3: just brush and trees. So it's a pretty good location

145
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,360
Speaker 3: to hide a especially if he's taken the body deep

146
00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,640
Speaker 3: into these the trees. But he doesn't do that. He's

147
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,040
Speaker 3: depositing it close to the side of the road, so

148
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,280
Speaker 3: that's a purposeful choice on his part.

149
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you look at the second photo, so

150
00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,600
Speaker 2: that's a close up of the area, and I'm trying

151
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,120
Speaker 2: to figure out where there's a Baltimore sign and a

152
00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,400
Speaker 2: Washington sign. And it's the third photo that shows the wig,

153
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,840
Speaker 2: and you can actually see the wig where it's at

154
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 2: the median. So I still have a hard time kind

155
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,280
Speaker 2: of piecing together where this stuff is and all of that.

156
00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,280
Speaker 3: But oh, I can tell you where it's at.

157
00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:35,840
Speaker 2: Okay.

158
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,320
Speaker 3: So in the in the first photo where her body

159
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 3: is found, if somebody is driving in the direction going

160
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,400
Speaker 3: down on as as the photo is, you come to

161
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,320
Speaker 3: that intersection, you can see the median that's right there,

162
00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,040
Speaker 3: that's got the right shape, and then he can see

163
00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,600
Speaker 3: the building to the left. That's where her wig is found,

164
00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,679
Speaker 3: is on that median, And so he dumps her body,

165
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,880
Speaker 3: and I'm determining his direction of travels. He is driving

166
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,640
Speaker 3: on the side of the street in which her body

167
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 3: is found. He continues driving down, comes to that intersection,

168
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 3: and of course you have to stop there, right and

169
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,959
Speaker 3: now he's dumping the wig out out of the driver's

170
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,920
Speaker 3: side window. So it's possible he dumps her body and

171
00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,160
Speaker 3: as he's driving away, he's going, oh shit, her wig

172
00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,280
Speaker 3: is still in here. Now he comes up to that

173
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 3: media and dumps it off and then continues on and

174
00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,760
Speaker 3: after that. Don't know which direction he takes, you know,

175
00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 3: but there is a little bit of reconstructive information in

176
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,920
Speaker 3: terms of what is going on between the body dump

177
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,640
Speaker 3: location and where the wig is found.

178
00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,280
Speaker 2: So let's see, they are searching through her clothing. Remember

179
00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 2: she's fully clothed. There, let's get so weird. In the

180
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,080
Speaker 2: pocket of her coat is a handwritten note and it

181
00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 2: is says, this is tantamount to my insensitivity written in

182
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 2: to people, especially women. I will admit the others when

183
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,880
Speaker 2: you catch me if you can exclamation point freeway phantom.

184
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,080
Speaker 3: Okay. So I think it's also it's important to point

185
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:19,240
Speaker 3: out when this case is taking place nineteen seventy one.

186
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 3: At this point, we haven't crossed into nineteen seventy two

187
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,760
Speaker 3: with any of the crimes up to this point. Nineteen

188
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,960
Speaker 3: seventy one, what was the big case that had the

189
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:35,040
Speaker 3: nation completely riveted out there in the Bay Area, California. Zodiac, right,

190
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,679
Speaker 3: that's when what was the Zodiac doing.

191
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,559
Speaker 2: He was writing notes.

192
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:45,320
Speaker 3: Exactly and had this moniker right like Zodiac and is

193
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 3: doing these taunts to the police and is trying to

194
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,640
Speaker 3: capture the public's attention and keeping everybody in fear. Well,

195
00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,320
Speaker 3: I think this guy has most certainly got to be

196
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,160
Speaker 3: aware of the zodiac case, even though it's all the

197
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,560
Speaker 3: way across the country. And now he's seeing that he's

198
00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,000
Speaker 3: got his own moniker. You know, he is liking the

199
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,640
Speaker 3: fact that he's getting some notoriety. And now he's leaving

200
00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,239
Speaker 3: a taunt if you will, I'll admit to the others

201
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,520
Speaker 3: when you catch me, if you can, you know. So

202
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,319
Speaker 3: that's a challenge. So it's interesting. And I often pay

203
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,800
Speaker 3: attention to handwriting, and this looks like the handwriting of

204
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,120
Speaker 3: somebody who's got some serious issues.

205
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,960
Speaker 2: Okay, so there is a missing person report out, so

206
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,600
Speaker 2: they look at children, they look at adults, and this

207
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,559
Speaker 2: is an eighteen year old and her name is Brenda

208
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,440
Speaker 2: Denise Woodard. So this is another Brenda. I mean, certainly

209
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,520
Speaker 2: by coincidence, I'm sure, But remember we have another Brenda. Yeah,

210
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 2: she is a teenager. She's interested in fashion and music,

211
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,960
Speaker 2: and you know, it sounds like she wants to be

212
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,760
Speaker 2: kind of maybe an elementary school educator. She was kicked

213
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,720
Speaker 2: out though of her high school. This was called spring Guard.

214
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,559
Speaker 2: She through an an empty beer can at her ex boyfriend,

215
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,400
Speaker 2: so they kicked her out for that, and she had

216
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,440
Speaker 2: been taking night classes at Cordoza High School. Here's what

217
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,600
Speaker 2: happened that day. At six forty five pm on November fifteenth,

218
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,320
Speaker 2: Brenda left her parents' home in Baltimore and she went

219
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,640
Speaker 2: to Cardoza High School where she's taking the night classes,

220
00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,120
Speaker 2: which is in Washington, d C. She does her classes.

221
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,040
Speaker 2: At nine forty five, she and a friend from class

222
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,960
Speaker 2: go to Ben's Chili Bowl for dinner and then they're

223
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,240
Speaker 2: there for about forty minutes and then they both get

224
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,560
Speaker 2: on a bus. So she transfers at the eighth and

225
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 2: H Street Northeast stop and she never gets home. So

226
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,200
Speaker 2: the last time her friend or anybody saw her was

227
00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,840
Speaker 2: at this transfer Now.

228
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,920
Speaker 3: You know what I'm trying to figure out is where

229
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,200
Speaker 3: does the offender contact her? Well, he could contact her

230
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,080
Speaker 3: at the transfer station after she has separated from her friend,

231
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,199
Speaker 3: or he could contact her if this bus is, you know,

232
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,719
Speaker 3: going all the way out to Baltimore, then he's contacting

233
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 3: her as she's getting off the bus to maybe walk home.

234
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,640
Speaker 3: And so where her body is found? Where is her

235
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 3: body found?

236
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,080
Speaker 2: So we have conflicting information about whether she lived in

237
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 2: DC or whether she lived in Maryland. But the reality

238
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,760
Speaker 2: is is that her body is found in Maryland off

239
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 2: of two two. Now we know who she is. She

240
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,280
Speaker 2: is taken to the Maryland Medical Examiner for the autopsy,

241
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 2: and this is you know what. The results are violently raped.

242
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 2: Her neck is bruised and broken, and she has defensive

243
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,960
Speaker 2: wounds on her hands and blood under her nails, you know,

244
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,840
Speaker 2: which means a struggle. There are hairs from a black

245
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,880
Speaker 2: person and a Caucasian individual that are found on her coat,

246
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,560
Speaker 2: on her boot, on her shirt, her bra. She was

247
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 2: riding a bus, so so that doesn't surprise me. And

248
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,280
Speaker 2: then they say that the hairs belonged to a crime

249
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,560
Speaker 2: scene investigator, they think who covered the body with a

250
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,680
Speaker 2: blanket from the trunk of his or her car and

251
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:17,320
Speaker 2: disregarded as evidence. They're also the telltale green synthetic fibers

252
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,120
Speaker 2: found on her socks and in her underwear. And unlike

253
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,480
Speaker 2: the other victims of this is different, Paul. She's been

254
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,080
Speaker 2: stabbed four times and they say likely by a left

255
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,840
Speaker 2: handed individual, and the wound to her right chest was

256
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 2: the fatal wound they believe, So this is different. Do

257
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,880
Speaker 2: you think it's that he got up close and figured

258
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 2: out that she's older, and she fought. She must have fought, like, hell.

259
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well I would say that with the I mean

260
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 3: the fact that she has a broken neck. I mean

261
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,320
Speaker 3: that's not easy to do. You know. It's not like

262
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,360
Speaker 3: what you see in the movies where guy just you know,

263
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 3: twists the head of you know, some enemy. And so

264
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,440
Speaker 3: she fought that. There's a lot of force being used

265
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,560
Speaker 3: during this combat between her and the offender, so you know,

266
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 3: she is fighting back. She's the oldest, she's probably the

267
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,840
Speaker 3: most physically capable of all the victims so far in

268
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,520
Speaker 3: this series, and he potentially really struggled to get her

269
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:23,600
Speaker 3: under control. You know. Now, sometimes I'll see certain things

270
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 3: and I can get a guess of a sort of

271
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,360
Speaker 3: the difference between the offender and the victim in terms

272
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,440
Speaker 3: of their you know, size and strength and capabilities. I

273
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 3: can't say that with with whoever is attacking Brenda just

274
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 3: based off the fact she has a broken neck. But

275
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,880
Speaker 3: I would say, yeah, she fought back, but he still

276
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 3: carries out a sexual assault. Can't sequence when the sex

277
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,680
Speaker 3: assault occurred relative to you know, the fight between the two,

278
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,480
Speaker 3: but the stabbing in part may be due to him

279
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 3: trying to get her under control, or he's just trying

280
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,760
Speaker 3: to ensure she's dead. The broken neck may not necessarily

281
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 3: have resulted in death or even paralysis, depending on what

282
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:07,959
Speaker 3: they found.

283
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,359
Speaker 2: And you know, I was thinking that, boy, the knife

284
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 2: seems different for me, but one of them had cuts

285
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:16,920
Speaker 2: on her.

286
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 3: Yep, Nope, for sure.

287
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 2: So there's a knife involved somewhere else too. You're right, okay,

288
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,119
Speaker 2: So here, I'm going to throw you another curveball, and

289
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 2: you're going to tell me what you think about this.

290
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 2: The note, the tantamount things misspelled note. So there's a

291
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,400
Speaker 2: handwriting expert that says this is Brenda's handwriting because they

292
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 2: have her handwriting samples, obviously from school, and he said

293
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,760
Speaker 2: this is it. I don't find it's under duress. So

294
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,680
Speaker 2: three of her school notebooks were missing. She had been

295
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,159
Speaker 2: carrying them that night from the high school. So of

296
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 2: course the theory is is that he made her write

297
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 2: this note.

298
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:54,640
Speaker 3: Handwriting comparison is one of those really loose types of

299
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,360
Speaker 3: if you want to call it a science, Yeah, i'd

300
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 3: want to see her examples of writing. You know how

301
00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 3: much examples did this handwriting expert supposedly have. Yeah, but

302
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 3: sure you know, if the offender made her write it.

303
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,720
Speaker 3: You know, it's in some ways a way to minimize

304
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,760
Speaker 3: in his mind, you know, the evidence that law enforcement

305
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 3: could use back in the day with fingerprints to try

306
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,439
Speaker 3: to identify him. You know. So he's saying he's not

307
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 3: touching that piece of paper. He's having Brenda do it.

308
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,679
Speaker 3: But I don't know. I'd have to judge judge the

309
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 3: handwriting myself to see if I if I agreed, And

310
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,639
Speaker 3: I'm not going to say I'm a handwriting expert, but

311
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 3: I definitely you know, know what I'm looking at.

312
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, before we continue on the route we've been on,

313
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,360
Speaker 2: we have to introduce some new people. We have nineteen

314
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:49,200
Speaker 2: seventy one style criminal profilers, which I always find profilers

315
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,040
Speaker 2: from the past to be really interesting. I mean some

316
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 2: of them now are interesting too. They have medical experts

317
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 2: who are trying to build this profile of whoever is

318
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 2: doing this now that we have five people who are dead,

319
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 2: and they have too from the Springfield State Hospital, and

320
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 2: they think that the killer is a sociopath who has

321
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 2: recently suffered a traumatic event. And there's a third physician

322
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 2: who says this is an intelligent, paranoid, schizoid sadist who

323
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 2: is under the influence of drugs and might be interested

324
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,920
Speaker 2: in necrophilia. And they're saying, you know, the reason that

325
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,119
Speaker 2: he's leaving these girls in plane view near major highways

326
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,879
Speaker 2: is that, you know, we've already said this, he craves

327
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 2: publicity and attention, and that means feelings of inadequacy, and

328
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 2: it's possible that I mean, now we're really digging in here.

329
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,480
Speaker 2: There's a missing father figure in his life. And of

330
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,919
Speaker 2: course other people think that he himself is an intellectual

331
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,359
Speaker 2: and that he is a sexual sadist and loner. He

332
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,640
Speaker 2: derives pleasure more from violence of his actions than through

333
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 2: any sexual activity. Pretty specific, without being specific at all,

334
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 2: I mean, like I said, I'm sure you could throw

335
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,679
Speaker 2: a rock at a lot of people, a lot of

336
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,959
Speaker 2: men in the DC area at this time. But what

337
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 2: do you think about that assessment, you.

338
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 3: Know, their conclusion or their opinion that he is a

339
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 3: sexual sadist. I mean, there is a possibility he is,

340
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,880
Speaker 3: you know, when you start getting into sort of diagnosing

341
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 3: him from afar, you know, in terms of he's you know, paranoids, schizophrenic.

342
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,879
Speaker 3: You know, right now, I've worked with profilers my entire

343
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 3: career and all these characteristics that they're saying about this

344
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:39,439
Speaker 3: freeway phantom is something that's internal. You know, it's nothing

345
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 3: that I can use to what I say is narrow

346
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 3: the suspect pool. There isn't a database to give me

347
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 3: a list of all the paranoid schizophrenics in the DC

348
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 3: area that are black males. You know, it's like, I

349
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 3: can't do it. Now. If I run across a suspect

350
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 3: and fits these types of characteristics that can be discerned,

351
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 3: then sure that might be helpful. Right now, I really

352
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,640
Speaker 3: can't draw any conclusions as to their opinions because it's

353
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 3: nothing that you know, that is externally available to you know,

354
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 3: flesh out a suspect.

355
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, well let's move on. There is an

356
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 2: incredible amount of pressure on the police. There's media everywhere,

357
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 2: the FBI are around, there's lots of community involvement, and

358
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 2: so the phantom goes silent for ten months. Now, you know,

359
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 2: that is kind of what logically in your head would say,

360
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 2: is what happened? He got scared, But you and I

361
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 2: know lives changed. Things happened. Maybe he was in prison,

362
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 2: maybe he was confined in a psychiatric facility. Maybe he

363
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 2: don't got married. We don't know, but this is what

364
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 2: the common knowledge would be, that that he is laying low,

365
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: but not for much longer, because in September of nineteen

366
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,120
Speaker 2: seventy two there.

367
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 3: Is a sixth victim seventy two. Okay, so yep, ten

368
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 3: months later and so let's let's hear it. What does

369
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 3: he do?

370
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 2: Okay? So September sixth, nineteen seventy two, it is eight

371
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 2: oh four in the morning, and the body of another

372
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 2: black girl is found on the shoulder of I two

373
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 2: ninety five, basically next to where Darlinia's body was found.

374
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 2: And you'll see it on the map. But let me

375
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: tell you the circumstances first. So she is found face

376
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: down eight feet from the shoulder of I two ninety five.

377
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 2: She's wearing wet clothing and white sneakers without shoelaces. She

378
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 2: has been manually strangled to death, and there are fingernail

379
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,959
Speaker 2: marks creating divots in her neck similar to Carol. I believe.

380
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 2: There is a small bruise on her ribcage and abrasions

381
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,640
Speaker 2: on her left elbow. There's semen found in her vagina

382
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 2: in her mouth. Now, the note here is that it

383
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 2: doesn't apeear like she has been sexually assaulted. I mean,

384
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 2: you know, by nineteen seventy one nineteen seventy two standards,

385
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's what police said, but she obviously has been.

386
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 2: There are hairs from black and Caucasian individuals that are

387
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: collected from her body, green synthetic fibers found in her

388
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,239
Speaker 2: bra Without those fibers, is there any argument that this

389
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 2: could be just copycats? I mean, this isn't it the

390
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: synthetic fibers, besides of course the semen, which they can't

391
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 2: really do anything within seventy two. But is it the

392
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 2: fibers that are connecting all of these beside circumstantial stuff?

393
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 3: Besides circumstantial stuff, I mean, the consistent presence of fibers

394
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 3: is interesting for sure. You know, this is also you know,

395
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 3: part of the concern is what is there a source

396
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: within the source of those types of fibers that may

397
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 3: be due to contamination, you know, during the evidence processing,

398
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 3: so they would have to eliminate that. But assuming these

399
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 3: fibers are actually from something that the offender is got,

400
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 3: you know, a as residents, an area, rug, a carpety

401
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 3: inside his vehicle, those as as long as they're reasonably unique.

402
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 3: You've always find blue cotton fibers everywhere. Everybody has blue

403
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 3: cotton fibers on them, just because the prevalence of cotton,

404
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 3: you know, blue jeans and stuff like that. But with

405
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 3: these synthetic fibers, if they are doing you know, fairly

406
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: rigorous testing on those characteristics I mentioned before, you know,

407
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 3: it's what kind of fiber is, what kind of cross

408
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 3: sectional shape does it have, what is the dye that

409
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 3: is used? You know, and if all of that is

410
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 3: adding up with all the fibers across each case, then

411
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: you're probably I would say, yeah, that's that's a fairly

412
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: it's it could be a fairly strong link if this

413
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 3: is a reasonably rare fiber.

414
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 2: Okay, So now they need to id her and they

415
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 2: look through the seeing person reports. Thank goodness, people are

416
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 2: reporting these girls missing. They identify her as seventeen year

417
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: old Diane Denise Williams, and she is responsible and trusting,

418
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: hardworking girl who hope to become a model. I mean,

419
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: these are all good man. Just like I'm not hearing

420
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: anything about gang activity or you know, having involvement in

421
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 2: drugs or anything like that. These are just all good kids.

422
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 2: After spending September fifth with her family, she met up

423
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: with her sixteen year old boyfriend, who's a kid named

424
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 2: James Pryor, and they were going to just listen to records. Win.

425
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: Ten thirty pm rolls around and Diane has not come home.

426
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: Her parents get very nervous, and eleven o'clock comes and

427
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: her parents report her missing. So I don't know if

428
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: they know about James or what, but they don't seem

429
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: to call him. They call the police.

430
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and well, James most Early was interviewed and he

431
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: said Diane took off right.

432
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 2: Well, so this is what he says. He says that

433
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: he and Diane had had sex the night before. Okay,

434
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 2: so that night that she went missing, she gets on

435
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 2: the bus. She boards a bus at ten pm to

436
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: go back home. So when police go to the bus driver,

437
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: he said, yeah, she was on my bus. She had

438
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 2: gotten off at nineteenth and Bnning Road, which is further

439
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 2: away than where she should have gotten off, which is

440
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 2: at twenty first to get to her house. He says

441
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: she got off with two who he calls hoodlums, and

442
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 2: investigators don't have any idea why who are these two people?

443
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 2: She got off the bus with and why is she

444
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 2: not waiting to get closer to home? And so then

445
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: they're left with a big mystery from this girl. So

446
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 2: James said, yeah, she hopped on the bus. It to

447
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: answer your question a roundabout way, Yes, we had sex.

448
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: She hopped on the bus, so that could be where

449
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: the semen comes from.

450
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 3: It sounds like she she at least got to a

451
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 3: location where she's getting off the bus. I think what's

452
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 3: important is she is observed by the bus driver getting

453
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 3: off at that part time killer stop. You have the

454
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 3: other two thug guys, you know, getting off at the

455
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 3: same time. So she's on foot and that's the last

456
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: time she's seen. So that's entirely consistent with how you

457
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 3: know many of these other victims are likely being contacted

458
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 3: by the offender. And you got two in a row

459
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 3: now that have a connection to riding the bus.

460
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So the note about the hoodlums who had

461
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 2: gotten off the bus supposedly with Diane. The police start

462
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: turning to a gang called the Green Vega Gang. And

463
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: this is happening in May of seventy four. So you

464
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: were in the city when this is happening, Paul, I

465
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: don't know if you remember this notorious gang. So Metropolitan

466
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: Police detective named Louis Richardson meets with an informant at

467
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: the Lorton Prison and is this guy named Fatsy And

468
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 2: he's a member of the Green Vega gang. It is

469
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 2: a group known to commit violent abductions. And I don't

470
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: know if they say or it's been proven, but they

471
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: have been known to have raped as many as one

472
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: thousand women in the DC metro area between sixty nine

473
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: and seventy three, which is of course when the killoeds

474
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: happened or when these murders happened. Okay, So the name

475
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: of the gang is in reference to the Emerald Green

476
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: Chevrolet Vega that they used for their crimes. And Fatsy

477
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: have been convicted of four rapes, armed robbery, kidnapping, and

478
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: he wants a sentencing deal. So he tells investigators he

479
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,239
Speaker 2: has information about the Freeway Phantom and he says, I,

480
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: of course, he says, I had no involvement, but he

481
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: names off four different gang members that are to blame,

482
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: and he takes investigators to the locations where Brenda and

483
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: Darlenia and Brenda Crockett have been discovered. He gives details,

484
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: according to the police, about Brenda Woodard's murder that they

485
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: say only the killer would have known. I don't know

486
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: what those details are. I'm pretty skeptical, and I think

487
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: it was fairly well publicized where these bodies were found.

488
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: But Fatty is fingering one guy whose name is John Davis,

489
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: who is the one who is the kind of the

490
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: gun wielding leader of the gang that fits the profile.

491
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: And then you know, we can kind of talk about that.

492
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: But then I will tell you Fatsy does recan't you know?

493
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: He essentially says this was all a hoax and he

494
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: just wanted to reduce sentence and that's it. I'm a

495
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: little confused about what info he had. I also think

496
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: the police were under so much pressure that that was

497
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: a lie potentially, who knows.

498
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 3: Well, it is true that you know, these gangs not

499
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 3: only are you know, selling dope, selling guns, you know,

500
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: killing other gang members, rival gang members, et cetera. You know,

501
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: that's all part of what people perceive as gangs. But

502
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 3: they also get involved in sexual assaults for sure, you know,

503
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 3: and there's you know, they literally do gang rapes at times,

504
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 3: so that you know, that adds up from yes, you know,

505
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: you absolutely could have you know, these gang members that

506
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 3: are truly sexual predators and are participating in crimes that

507
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: have sexual motivations with other gang members. You know, it

508
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 3: was interesting, you know, this green Vega chevrolet, you know,

509
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 3: and then of course you've got the synthetic green fibers.

510
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 3: You know, that would be an easy thing to try

511
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: to figure out. Could those fibers have originated from the

512
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 3: upholstery that was commonly used within these Vega vehicles. I

513
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: just you know, for this series, this seems inconsistent with

514
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 3: the type of offender that is involved with this series,

515
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 3: especially with the taunting, you know, the writing, the note,

516
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 3: the phone calls. I'm not buying this at all. And

517
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: part of my concern about, you know, the authorities at

518
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: the time saying this fatcy that he's providing details that

519
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 3: only the killer would know. I've literally seen authorities during

520
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 3: the interview feed those details to the person that they

521
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: are interviewing, and the person just regurgitates those details. Yeah,

522
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: they just you know, and that is sometimes just in

523
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: competence by the interviewers. Sometimes it's purposeful because they're just

524
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 3: trying to close a case and they're going to frame

525
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 3: this guy, just so they can say they've made an arrest.

526
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: And that's why we have the Innocence Project.

527
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And you know I mentioned this guy, John Davis,

528
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 2: and they look at John Davis, who's a member of

529
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: the Vego Gang, and he is not a good person.

530
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: Of course. He becomes easily enraged, and he seems to

531
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: get pleasure out of causing other people harm and misery.

532
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: He has a history of pedophilia. He has a rape

533
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: victim who says that when he's her to the woods

534
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: to sexually assault her, he said, this is where I

535
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: kill little girls. Now I know that it's a scare tactic,

536
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: you know, So I don't put any weight on that.

537
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: I assume you don't either. I mean, if I were

538
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: going to intimidate somebody, I would use a weapon and

539
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: I would use words.

540
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 3: No for sure, you know. And that's just that's not

541
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 3: an unusual type of threat that's gain compliance.

542
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: So Fatsy says, just kidding, I didn't you mean any

543
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: of it. He gets scared, of course, that he's going

544
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: to get shanked in prison, because all of these guys

545
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: are going to end up at some point in prison

546
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: and he'll be there with them.

547
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: Well, and he's going to be suspected of being involved

548
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 3: in the abduction, rape, homicide of little girls. It makes

549
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 3: you kind of a target in the prison system.

550
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not worth a reduced sentence to him.

551
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: I think the detective in charge doesn't believe him anyway.

552
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: He just doesn't think like you. He just doesn't think

553
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: this really adds up. This is not This gang has

554
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: been around for a while and nothing like this has

555
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: ever been associated with this gang. Horrible things, but different

556
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: horrible things. So the detective, Lloyd Davis, he believes that

557
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: the killer is connected to the Saint Elizabeth's Mental Hospital

558
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: because we've seen some bodies be deposited right there, you know, notably,

559
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: I think it's Carol and Darlinia the very close together.

560
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: So he starts digging into past patients and he sees

561
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: a guy named Robert Elwood askins, I think this is

562
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: the person we need to pay the most attention to.

563
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: So he's been described as mentally disturbed and he was

564
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: currently convicted in seventy four on two counts of abduction

565
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: and rape. He is also black. Because I know we've

566
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: been talking about race a lot, so let me describe

567
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: what happens with a survivor, because there's a couple of

568
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: survivors in this case with Askins specifically that can be proven.

569
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: So this is seventy six. When this happens, he had

570
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 2: gotten out, So this is five years from the beginning

571
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: of the series. So I cannot imagine being in Washington,

572
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 2: d c. Particularly being a person of color. And this

573
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: series of girls and very young women being murdered has

574
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: not been solved after five years. It must have been

575
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: terrifying to be in that environment. Awful. This is where

576
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: Askins comes in. So July eighth, seventy six, he poses

577
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: as a policeman and he pulls alongside twenty five year

578
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: old Martina Stewart and he convinces her to get into

579
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: his green car. He could have had a blue Volkswagen

580
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 2: with a yellow stripe and ditched it several years ago,

581
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 2: but this is a green car. Once inside, he threatens

582
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: her with a gun. He takes her to his house

583
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 2: and repeatedly rapes her. And after the assault, he demands

584
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 2: that she make the bed. As she leans forward to

585
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 2: tuck in the sheets, he pins her down with a pipe.

586
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: She wrestles the pipe from him and throws a can

587
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: opener at him, but she can't escape. Later on, he

588
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: agrees to let her go. The only condition is is

589
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 2: that she needs to take a bath and she needs

590
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 2: to allow him to lotion her body and comb her hair.

591
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: He forces her to write a note stating that she

592
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: had thrown the can opener at him because she was

593
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 2: quote high off of drugs and she did what her

594
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: high told her to do. What do you think about

595
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: that she survives and this is a few years after

596
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: all of this other stuff happens.

597
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 3: Well, there's there's some overlap with the previous cases that

598
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 3: are part of the series. You know, the taking back

599
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 3: to a residence, you have the sexual assault, the cleanup,

600
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 3: forcing her to take a bath, and then forces her

601
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 3: to write a note just like possibly that's what happened

602
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 3: in Brenda's case, however different you know, she's twenty eight

603
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 3: years old. The use of a pipe, I think can't

604
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 3: say for sure that a pipe or a bludget weapon

605
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 3: hadn't been used in the other cases. But he's also

606
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 3: not strangling her, he's not killing herries letting her live.

607
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 3: So there are some differences, and you know, are those

608
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 3: differences due to the passage of time? Are those due

609
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 3: to you know, who Martina was to him as a victim.

610
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 3: You know, that's that's kind of hard to say. I

611
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 3: would say he's interesting just because there is, at least

612
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 3: from what I can tell, you know, enough overlap where

613
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 3: you have to look at him and you know, this

614
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 3: is where it's where was he at at the time

615
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 3: of the other cases? You know, what is he up to?

616
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 3: Is there a way I can eliminate him because he

617
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 3: was in the hospital for you know, some of the cases,

618
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 3: So you just have to start, you start digging in

619
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 3: on the guy, and then of course you have to

620
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 3: pull him in and interview him for those other cases.

621
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just a quick note, when seventy six is

622
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: here and he has this abduction, he's fifty seven at

623
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: the time, so you know he's older and I don't

624
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 2: know if that comes into play later on, but there's

625
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: some background that I'll tell you about with him.

626
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 3: Well I'm fifty seven. Well be careful with the term older,

627
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 3: all right.

628
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: Moving on, let's not fifty one.

629
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it does somewhat come into play, though,

630
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: is that. You know we've seen these male offenders they

631
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: do age out. Now, not necessarily, we do have older

632
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 3: offenders for sure, you know, but it also now comes

633
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 3: back to Okay, when the Freeway Phantom series starts with

634
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 3: Carol in nineteen seventy one, Askins is fifty two, fifty

635
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 3: three somewhere in there, so you know, five years of past,

636
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 3: six years of past, you know. So he's in his

637
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 3: early fifties. He's more your age, Kate than mine. When

638
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 3: the series starts, this is this is a little bit

639
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 3: old for a predator to start, you know. So that's

640
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 3: this is kind of what I'm keying in on is

641
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 3: let's say he is the Freeway Phantom. I'm kind of going, well,

642
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 3: what pre existed the first case with Carol, you know,

643
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 3: whether it be in the DC area or wherever Askins

644
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 3: has been his adult life.

645
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: Okay, So about nine months later, after what happened with

646
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 2: Martina Stewart, I mean, he gets away with that, he

647
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 2: asks attempts another abduction. So this is a twenty three

648
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: year old named Gloria McMillan, and she was waiting for

649
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 2: an elevator to her apartment complex and he approaches her

650
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 2: from behind. He presses an iron pipe against her throat,

651
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: begins a choker, and he forces her into his green car.

652
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 2: Then he takes her to his house. He restrains her,

653
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 2: he sexually assaults her. After he failed to use the

654
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: pipe on her, he stuffed a piece of paper in

655
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: her vagina, which was similar to I think the first

656
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: brin to Crockett. I believe when Gloria fought back, he

657
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: choked her and tried to throw her through a window.

658
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: The glass broke, it cut her arms. She passed out.

659
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 2: When she regained consciousness, he was in the process of

660
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: assaulting her again. Then he bathed her. He put lotion

661
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: on her body, he bandaged her arms, and he gave

662
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 2: her three aspirin. She believed he was going to let

663
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 2: her go, but he instead grabbed a knife and a

664
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: plastic bag from the kitchen, threatened to kill her and

665
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 2: dump her body in Virginia, and sounds like he was

666
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 2: going to do that. He was dragging her to his car,

667
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 2: and she escaped. So this is where it gets a

668
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: little confusing, because this happens in seventy seven, and it

669
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: sounds like because of this he is arrested. He claims

670
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 2: that he had only been trying to help these two women,

671
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 2: that he was the victim of their drug fueled violence.

672
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: He alleged the women and fabricated their stories to collaborate

673
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 2: with the police and with psychiatrists at Saint Elizabeth's, where

674
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 2: it turns out he spent quite a lot time and

675
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: the world was against him. The judge doesn't buy it,

676
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 2: and he is admitted to Saint Elizabeth's Forensic Impatient Division.

677
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 2: So you know, then we have to go back decades

678
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 2: to find out what his background is to give you know,

679
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: us more insight here. So what do you think about

680
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: that second abduction.

681
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: Well, it's I would say it's very similar to his

682
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 3: first abduction, and there's you know, there's overlap with the

683
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 3: Freeway Phantom cases. He absolutely has to be investigated based

684
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 3: on his past and the fact that geographically he does

685
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 3: have a location that you know, fits with the first

686
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 3: two cases, Carol and Darlenia. And you know, but what

687
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 3: that being said is that you're going to find offenders

688
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 3: that have criminal history during the course of your investigation,

689
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 3: and so it's not it's not unusual that you will

690
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: find offenders that have committed similar type crimes to the

691
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 3: guy that is actually responsible for the cases you're investigating.

692
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 3: And in nineteen seventy seven, at this point to try

693
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 3: to link them to the freeway. Phantom cases is a

694
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 3: little bit more challenging than what we could do today.

695
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Well, they go back to try to figure

696
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: out what his connection might be, because now, of course it's

697
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: seventy seven, it's six years later when this all started,

698
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,439
Speaker 2: and they think that he is certainly involved. So they

699
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: do what you say, they investigate in thirty eight. So

700
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 2: let me go back real quick. Robert Askins was born

701
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 2: in nineteen nineteen, so now we're talking about thirty eight,

702
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 2: so he's nineteen I think. In nineteen thirty eight, he

703
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 2: was a chemistry student at a teachers college which is

704
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: now it was called Minor Teachers College. Now it's Howard University.

705
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: Great school. Oh well, he stabbed and killed a woman.

706
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: She was a twenty six year old sex worker named

707
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Brown. And then a week after that, he served

708
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: alcohol laced with rat poison, so it's potassium signine to

709
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: five sex workers, killing one of them named Ruth MacDonald.

710
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 2: She was thirty one. He was arrested and indicted for

711
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: stabbing Elizabeth Brown. He went on a misogynistic rant. He

712
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: said that after he contracted as sexually transmitted infection, he

713
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: decided to kill them all. Little Jack the Ripper seems

714
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: like and orchestrate a purge of prostitutes. He said. Later

715
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 2: he would say police brutality had forced this confession. While

716
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 2: he was awaiting psychiatric evaluation, he freed himself from his

717
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: restraints and attacked three female employees. And then he's diagnosed

718
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: with something. But it's an interesting diagnosis. But let's, you know,

719
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: go through what you think about that this seems in

720
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 2: line with the Freeway phantom killer.

721
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 3: Well, he's showing that he's capable of committing this type

722
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 3: of violence, you know, but we still have to have

723
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 3: a nexus between him and the actual crimes that are

724
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 3: being worked. Like the point I made, you know, earlier

725
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 3: in the first episode is we are talking about, you know,

726
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 3: the DC area. This suspect Askins was developed by an

727
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 3: investigator going and find trying to find former patients that

728
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 3: were staying at that hospital. And so of course you're

729
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 3: going to find some people when you do that type

730
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 3: of intensive dig in a psychiatric hospital, You're going to

731
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: find some people who have committed some horrific crimes. So

732
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 3: now it gets down to he's checking some boxes in

733
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 3: terms of his his hostility and violence towards women that

734
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 3: go go back to being a teenage boy. But you

735
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: have to you have to find something that ties him

736
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 3: to the freeway phantom cases.

737
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's keep going because we definitely have a

738
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: lot of people weighing in on this. So he was

739
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: found guilty and he was diagnosed with dementia Praycox of

740
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: the catatonic type. So he was committed to Saint Elizabeth's

741
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: and deemed incapable of standing trial, and this was in

742
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 2: thirty eight. So in forty three the murder charges were

743
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: dropped and in fifty two he was deemed rehabilitated and released.

744
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 2: So he was at Saint Elizabeth's for fourteen years and

745
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: then released, and he was released in fifty two. He

746
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: soon goes back to violence, so he strangles Laura Maddie Cook,

747
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 2: who was a sex worker in fifty two. Six months later,

748
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: he tries to strangle a twenty three year old named

749
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 2: Marie Sweeney, but she escapes. She doesn't report it because

750
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: she was a sex worker also, and you know, she

751
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 2: didn't want to draw attention to that. He was charged

752
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: with the murder of Laura Cook, but there was an

753
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: indictment that was dismissed because of a lack of evidence.

754
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: In fifty eight, his conviction in the murder of Ruth

755
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 2: MacDonald was overturned because of a lapse in the statute

756
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 2: of limitations because he was never charge with Ruth McDonald.

757
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 3: This was a homicide.

758
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: He served alcohol with rat poisoning to five sex workers

759
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 2: and he killed one of them. He was interested in indicted,

760
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 2: but then he was awaiting psychiatric evaluation, and this is

761
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: where he gets diagnosed with schizophrenia, and that's when he

762
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: gets admitted to Elizabeths. So it sounds like when he

763
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: gets out of Saint Elizabeths and he kills other people,

764
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:34,240
Speaker 2: they want to go back and charge him with Ruth McDonald, saying, oh,

765
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: he wasn't crazy, he needs to pay the price for that.

766
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: But I guess there was back then a statute of

767
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 2: limitations on murder and so they couldn't charge him.

768
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I also think so he's the way he

769
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 3: killed Ruth was through the rat poisoning. Maybe they didn't

770
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 3: deem it like first degree murder. Maybe they deemed it

771
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 3: something something else. Unlesser charge, whether it be second or manslaughter,

772
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 3: I'm not even sure if you could. If he's intentionally poisoning,

773
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 3: but there may be a little loophole in terms of

774
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 3: how that crime was charged, which now it has a

775
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 3: statute of limitations, and it told when they went back

776
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 3: to try to charge him with it.

777
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: The detective who was working this case, Davis, he went

778
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 2: and talked to people who knew Askins in the early seventies.

779
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 2: He had lived alone, and he had not clocked in

780
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 2: at work during the time of the freeway phantom abductions,

781
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 2: and that he was left handed also, so they're saying

782
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: he doesn't have an alibi for any of these. It

783
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: sounds like the detective searches Askin's current home. He's hoping,

784
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 2: of course, to try to find any trophy, schoolbooks from

785
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: Brenda Woodard, you know, anything like that, and the only

786
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 2: thing he finds is court documents I think from his cases,

787
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 2: one of which includes the word tantamount, which was the

788
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 2: incorrectly used word that the killer had made Brenda Woodard

789
00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 2: you know right down.

790
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 3: I don't know, not blown away by that as an

791
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 3: item of evidence. Yeah, so it sounds like that detective,

792
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 3: I mean, he got a warrant, he goes in, he's

793
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 3: searching for anything that can tie Askings to the phantom

794
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 3: killings and he strikes out.

795
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 2: He does, Okay, So they look at this mysterious screen

796
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 2: fiber that has been found on many of the victims.

797
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 2: In seventy seven, the FBI had sent it to its lab.

798
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: They confirm its rayon and all from the same source.

799
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: So at first they think what you and I thought,

800
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 2: which is a green carpet you know, from a car

801
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 2: or upholstery. But more modern science as in the last

802
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: few years says they think it's from a bathmat, which

803
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 2: makes more sense to me because that's probably where all

804
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 2: of the assaults happened, or you know, he has some

805
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 2: of them bathe maybe all of them were bathed. We

806
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: don't know.

807
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 3: Well, and that's where Yeah, between nineteen seventy seven and

808
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know when this current testing was done,

809
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 3: but let's say the advances in instrumental analyzes on for

810
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 3: this type of evidence just exponentially got better. So, you know,

811
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 3: I put a lot of weight on the more recent

812
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 3: finding just because I know they have a lot more

813
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 3: information as to what this fiber is, as well as

814
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 3: databases as to where that type of fiber. And it's

815
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 3: not just being ray on, it's also the cross section

816
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 3: of the fiber and the die that's using the fiber.

817
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 3: There's so many things today that they can really isolate

818
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 3: and get good info on that. If they're saying it's

819
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: a bathmat, then I believe that.

820
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. So let's talk about a new detective. So she's

821
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 2: coming on the case. Her name is Romaine Jenkins. In

822
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: the eighties, she was the first female homicide detective in

823
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 2: the district where the murders began, and you know, she

824
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 2: wanted to be on this case. She was called to

825
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: the first murder in seventy one, but then she was

826
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 2: taken off of the case completely because of the Vietnam protests.

827
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: So now she's put on the case, and she speculates

828
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: that the freeway phantom killer knew or stalked his victims.

829
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: So tell me what you think about this, and then

830
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: I have another interesting theory. This is what she finds.

831
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: Brenda Woodard's body was left on a street her mother

832
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: regularly took to work. Diane Williams's body was found on

833
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 2: an exit ramp her father used during his commute home.

834
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,720
Speaker 2: Brenda Crockett was calm and not hysterical when she called home,

835
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: meaning she knew whoever she was with, though she doesn't

836
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: name him, she says it's a white man. She was

837
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 2: forced to ask if her mother had seen her, So

838
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: the detective things that maybe this is a suggestion that

839
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 2: the killer wanted to know if the mom had had

840
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: been able to identify him when to make sure that

841
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: she didn't recognize him too. So do those seem like

842
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 2: coincidences or what.

843
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 3: They could be? I think it's not outside the wrong

844
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 3: the possibility that this killer is going after girls and

845
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 3: young women, that he has some sort of social interaction

846
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 3: with the families we've seen that, you know, that's just

847
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 3: the victim pool he decides to swim in. At this point,

848
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 3: I couldn't eliminate that as a possibility, but it's just

849
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 3: one of several possibilities. Absolute stranger, you know, victims of opportunity. So,

850
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 3: you know, I think it'll be interesting to see what

851
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 3: Detective Jenkins, you know, how she progresses in her investigation

852
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 3: and what her conclusions are.

853
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 2: Now here's something else odd I haven't mentioned yet that

854
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 2: the media really latched onto. And this is what I

855
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: would call the Denise theory. So I don't know if

856
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: you picked up on this, but as I named the

857
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: victims almost all have Denise in their names. So we

858
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,959
Speaker 2: have the thirteen year old first Carol Denise Spinks. Then

859
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 2: we have the second victim, who is Darlenia Denise Johnson.

860
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: And then you've got Brenda who is the fifth victim,

861
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: and she is Brenda Denise Woodard. And then we have

862
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 2: Diane Williams, who is the last victim that we know of,

863
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: and her last name it looks like it's Dennis, but

864
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 2: it's actually pronounced Denise. And so there is a lot

865
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: of theory, of course, running around in the seventies that

866
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: he has a fixation or trigger around the name Denise.

867
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 2: How would he know these girls middle names?

868
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 3: He wouldn't unless he actually knows them. It's weird, it is.

869
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 3: You know, this of course is going to come down to, well,

870
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 3: how prevalent is the name Denise and these communities where

871
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 3: these victims are from. It's kind of hard to know

872
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 3: how much weight to put on that. You know, this

873
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 3: is sort of like you know, the alphabet killer in Rochester,

874
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 3: New York, and you know, it turns out talking to

875
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 3: that detective, the people who are actually investigating that case

876
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 3: can't say any of those cases are related to each other.

877
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 3: They just happen to have victims that have you know,

878
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 3: their initials are the same. And you know, I recently

879
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 3: finished up a two year active investigation into a serial killer,

880
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 3: Joe Naso, and he also had multiple victims with first

881
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 3: and last initials out in the Bay Area, and he

882
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 3: came from Rochester, you know, So is he the alphabet killer?

883
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 3: You know? And it just turns out it's just you know,

884
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 3: sheer coincidence. You know, it's just an interesting pattern. But

885
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 3: I don't know how much weight to put on this.

886
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 2: It's just like, Okay, whether Askins was the Freeway phantom

887
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 2: killer or not, he was still just an awful person

888
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 2: and a rapist and a killer. So he had been

889
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 2: convicted and did not end up at Saint Elizabeth permanently.

890
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 2: He went to the Federal Correctional Institution in Cumberland, Maryland,

891
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: and he was there until he died in twenty ten

892
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: at the age of ninety one. I hate it when

893
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 2: people like that live that old. I mean, I know

894
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: he was in prison, but he was alive. He remained

895
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 2: in prison because of those two DC area abductions and

896
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 2: rapes in the mid nineteen seventies, not even for all

897
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 2: the other murders he had committed, let alone, you know,

898
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: being a suspect in the DC stuff. He denied any

899
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 2: role in the killings, of course, all the way to

900
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 2: the end, and he said that he doesn't have the

901
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 2: depravity of mind required to commit the crimes. Okay, here's

902
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 2: the interesting thing that I had thought of before, Paul,

903
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 2: I know you're going to want to talk about this

904
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 2: a little bit. So as of two thousand and one,

905
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: there have been ninety five suspects in the Freeway Phanom

906
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 2: murders over the years, and there is a three hundred

907
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 2: thousand dollars reward still offered to anyone with information that

908
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: can help close the case. That physical evidence has either

909
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: been lost or destroyed, so we don't have DNA it

910
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 2: sounds like to work off of. And because they're not

911
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 2: closing the investigation and it's open, we can't look at

912
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 2: the police reports, right and so Detective Jenkins is pessimistic

913
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 2: this is ever going to be solved.

914
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 3: Well, that's that's going to be the hard, hard part.

915
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 3: Just without that objective physical evidence that could identify, you know,

916
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 3: the Fruay phantom, you can sit there and develop circumstance

917
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 3: cases against you know a number of men, and you'll

918
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 3: be wrong. You know. That's what I did with Golden

919
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 3: Stake Killer, only to be wrong. That's where you know

920
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 3: you got whether it be Jack the Ripper or Zodiac.

921
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 3: You know you got all these persons of interest you

922
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 3: know that have been developed because of circumstances and you

923
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 3: can't prove it, you know, so part of this series here,

924
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 3: you know the evidence has been lost or destroyed as well,

925
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 3: how how intensive of a search has actually occurred. We

926
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 3: ended up finding evidence from old cases when our property

927
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 3: room had to do a complete inventory of every single

928
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 3: item contained with it. That is hundreds of thousands of

929
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,800
Speaker 3: items packaged in boxes and paper bags and freezers and

930
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 3: everything else. They had to open everything up and audit it.

931
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden they're finding supposedly lost

932
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 3: evidence what was placed in the wrong box. And so

933
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 3: that is the type of effort that would needed. You know,

934
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,760
Speaker 3: if I were to consult on this case, would be Okay,

935
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 3: where have you looked and how hard have you looked?

936
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 3: Did you ask your property room manager do we have

937
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 3: this evidence? And he comes back and says no, No.

938
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 3: As a detective, you want to go back there or

939
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 3: roll up your sleeves and start looking yourself.

940
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,359
Speaker 2: So a couple of kind of footnotes. There have been

941
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 2: other victims names that have kind of been floated around.

942
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 2: One in particular, Tara Ann Bryant, that Blaine Pardo and

943
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 2: his daughter Victoria Hester, we're working on connecting. I don't

944
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 2: have enough information about that, so we're not going to

945
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 2: get into that case at all because it's not a

946
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,720
Speaker 2: case that's mentioned with the Metropolitan Police or with the FBI.

947
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 2: So I just want to steer clear of cases that

948
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 2: we don't know have been one hundred percent connected to

949
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 2: this case. I would love to see a development in

950
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 2: this case. And I know that this is the kind

951
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 2: of case that really interests you, you know, because there

952
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 2: is a lot of profiling, and there's evidence and what

953
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,720
Speaker 2: might still be around and all of that kind of stuff.

954
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 2: But I would have to say that Askins is as

955
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 2: good a suspect as any and to me, he fits it.

956
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 2: But you're right, there's just illegally there's not enough evidence.

957
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 2: Thank god, he ended up in prison and ended up

958
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 2: dying there.

959
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, again, I just having investigated men who

960
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 3: have committed horrific crimes in the past, and they weren't

961
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 3: involved in the cases that I was investigating. They just

962
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 3: you know, their names popped up in the investigation for

963
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 3: one reason or another. I mean, you have to pay

964
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 3: attention to somebody that has in the past shown that

965
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 3: propensity or even after the cases like here, like Askins

966
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 3: has cases after but his case is after some overlap.

967
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 3: But you know, some significant differences with what he's doing.

968
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 3: Is that just because he's older, Well he's not that

969
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 3: much older. It's only five years, right, you know, so

970
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 3: why why the difference? So but yeah, I mean he

971
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 3: most certainly percolated to the top of that one investigator's efforts.

972
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 3: And as that investigator, Doug, He's going, oh my god,

973
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,439
Speaker 3: look at what this guy has done. But he can't

974
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 3: tie him to the actual phantom cases, you know, And

975
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 3: that's where you know, the people investigating this case it

976
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 3: has to be the ultimate effort to track down any

977
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 3: remaining item of physical evidence with the hope that you

978
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 3: can get that objective identifying evidence such as fingerprints off

979
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 3: of the note or DNA from whether it be the

980
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 3: victim's clothing or from swabs or whatever.

981
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, well, what a hard I still have a

982
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 2: headyque case gosh, I hate talking about kids who are

983
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: hurt and then murdered. It's just awful. But this is

984
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 2: the kind of case I personally, and I know our

985
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 2: listeners personally learn a lot from you and just from

986
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: policing in the seventies and about the history behind it.

987
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 2: But what an awful way to learn that stuff.

988
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 3: It's a hard case, right, you know, And it's it

989
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 3: has an impact on the people that are working the case.

990
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,959
Speaker 3: You know, of course, got the victims losing their lives,

991
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 3: families losing their loved ones, you know, but you know,

992
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 3: the professionals that are actually working these cases, just like

993
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 3: this Detective Jenkins, you know, I'm sure you know this

994
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 3: has had a massive impact on her as a person,

995
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 3: you know, And it's it's it's something where I know

996
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 3: there's victims families that never want to have their cases

997
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 3: covered in a podcast or a TV show, and then

998
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 3: there's other victim families are going, we want to have

999
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 3: our loved ones, you know, memory alive, you know, and

1000
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 3: hopefully it brings attention to the case and potentially could

1001
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 3: get them an answer as to who's responsible.

1002
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Okay, Paul, a different case next week. I'm excited

1003
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 2: for another case with Buried Bones.

1004
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 3: I am looking forward to it. Kate, thank you, see

1005
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 3: you see.

1006
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1007
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightemedia

1008
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 3: dot com slash Buried Bones Sources.

1009
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

1010
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 3: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1011
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1012
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1013
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1014
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1015
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1016
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 2: Buried Bones pod.

1017
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1018
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1019
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now.

1020
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1021
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: Cold Cases is also available now.

1022
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 3: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1023
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.