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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There are many things

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Speaker 1: in my life where I can reflect back and I

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Speaker 1: remember the first time I heard them. I remember the

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Speaker 1: first time I heard my child laugh in that giggle

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Speaker 1: that kind of bubbles up in them. I remember the

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Speaker 1: first time my wife told me that she loved me.

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Speaker 1: Those sounds, those remembrances that you have that are precious

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Speaker 1: and you kind of lock them away and you can

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Speaker 1: reflect back to them years in my case, decades now,

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Speaker 1: and it's something that's certainly precious. And when you think

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Speaker 1: about investigations, we rely heavily on Eyewooden's statements. We talk

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Speaker 1: about it all the time. You talk about it in

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Speaker 1: the New talk about in the courts. I talk about

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Speaker 1: it to my students that I teach at Jacksonville State.

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Speaker 1: But there's a different kind of witness that you don't

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Speaker 1: pardon the pun, hear much about. And those are ear witnesses. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to discuss a case that actually begins with

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Speaker 1: an ear witness. Today we're going to chat about the

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Speaker 1: brutal homicide of Brenda Powell. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is Body Backs. Dave, do you remember precious sounds.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember those things in your life that you

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Speaker 1: can reflect upon, Just kind of close your eyes and

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Speaker 1: for a moment you kind of drift back and you

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Speaker 1: can in dwell that moment because it's this thing that

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Speaker 1: it just really anchors in your soul for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: part of who we are as humans. And they're joyful.

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Speaker 1: Of course, there's a lot of bad things we hear too, right.

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Speaker 2: As you were talking about those joyful noises that children

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Speaker 2: in particular. You know, we all remember our kids, and

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Speaker 2: we have memories, we picture them, but we also we

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Speaker 2: hear them. It's one of the things that does leave

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Speaker 2: us sometimes when a loved one passes is the sound

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Speaker 2: of their voice. Why recordings are so helpful having that

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Speaker 2: recording of a loved one's voice. But in this particular

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Speaker 2: case with Sidney Powell, Joseph Scott Morgan, there was a

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Speaker 2: description given in this case that I had actually never

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Speaker 2: heard before, and it was describing something that you and

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Speaker 2: I and everybody else have We've talked about and probably

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Speaker 2: have said it. If you've ever played a game and

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Speaker 2: you got out of breath or whatever you said, I

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Speaker 2: had the win knocked out of me. That actually comes

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Speaker 2: into play today. And the shocking part of it, Joe

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Speaker 2: is I'd never actually thought about it until we were

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Speaker 2: researching this case and that phrase actually came out. It's

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Speaker 2: a huge part of what we're going to be talking

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Speaker 2: about today with regard to Sidney Powell at the time

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Speaker 2: nineteen years old college student and her fifty year old

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Speaker 2: mother who was an angel. When you talk about trying

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Speaker 2: to find about a person and you think, even when

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Speaker 2: they're the victim, maybe they have some bad stuff in

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Speaker 2: their life, this is a person that when you look

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Speaker 2: up her background and people talk about her, nobody says

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Speaker 2: anything bad. Brenda Powell worked as a child life specialist

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Speaker 2: in the Hematology on Cology unit at Akron Children's Hospital

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Speaker 2: for twenty eight years. She worked with children with cancer.

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Speaker 2: That's a special person. Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it truly is, Dave. There are parents, there are

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Speaker 1: stories out there about her. You know, once her case

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Speaker 1: kind of bubbled up in the media and people began

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Speaker 1: to make comment about it. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that really strikes a chord is the fact that there

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Speaker 1: were parents who had remembrances of her. One in particular

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Speaker 1: comes to mind where the parents said she was there

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Speaker 1: at the last moment, my child took that last breath

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Speaker 1: and kind of drifted off. And you know, think about

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Speaker 1: people that work in oncology in particular, if you've never

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Speaker 1: been around an oncology unit or those individuals that occupy

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Speaker 1: this space, it takes a special breed of person. You know.

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Speaker 1: They say that about medical legal death investigation and people

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Speaker 1: that work in the emme's office and corners offices. But

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Speaker 1: with on ecology, your goal is a therapeutic environment. You're

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Speaker 1: hoping for great outcomes. But if you're a professional work

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Speaker 1: in that environment, you have to understand what the realities

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Speaker 1: are and sometimes the families are not prepared for that.

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Speaker 1: You have to shoulder that burden many times, I think

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Speaker 1: as a worker in that environment, and because you see

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Speaker 1: it played out in front of you all the time. Right,

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Speaker 1: you have patients that succeed with their treatment, and you

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Speaker 1: have others that succumb to these horrible diseases, and the

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Speaker 1: families are not fully aware that that might happen. But

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Speaker 1: Brenda Powell was. She was a true caregiver in that

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Speaker 1: sense that she would take time to be with these

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Speaker 1: families and be with these patients as well.

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Speaker 2: And That's why as we were putting this together and

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Speaker 2: talking about her, she was that person. She was that

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Speaker 2: special person. You mentioned the sounds hearing things, and today

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Speaker 2: we're actually going to be talking about what an ear

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Speaker 2: witness is because one of the most powerful parts of

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Speaker 2: the testimony of what actually happened to Brenda Powell was

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Speaker 2: not actually seen, It was heard by people on the phone,

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Speaker 2: and that ear witness was able to describe something that

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Speaker 2: we've all used that getting the wind knocked out of you,

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Speaker 2: and the description she gives on the stand was just remarkable.

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Speaker 2: Never have I heard that before. But to get down

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Speaker 2: to the nitty gritty here, Joe. As a professor in college,

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Speaker 2: I imagine you've had a student or two who did

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Speaker 2: not keep up with their academics the way they needed to.

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Speaker 2: They're actually when you apply to college, people don't realize

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Speaker 2: that there's more than just board scores that go into

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Speaker 2: determining whether or not a student will be successful academically.

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Speaker 2: But they have a pretty good idea based on the

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Speaker 2: grades they got in high school and the board scores

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Speaker 2: they did get, whether it's the SAT or the ACT, whatever,

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Speaker 2: they have a way of determining this person. They're going

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Speaker 2: to be borderline successful. That's a tough thing to choose,

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Speaker 2: because we all want our children to be brilliant college

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Speaker 2: graduates and all that. Not everybody's a college student capable.

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Speaker 2: And that's what happened to Sidney Powell. When she got

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Speaker 2: to school. She pretty much was on academic probation almost

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Speaker 2: from her first semester, actually what I think it was

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Speaker 2: from her first semester, from her first weeks in college,

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Speaker 2: Sidney Powell was not academically keeping up. She hid this

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Speaker 2: information from her parents, and in doing so, the parents

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Speaker 2: did not know how bad things were for her academically,

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Speaker 2: to the point where as a matter of fact, her

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Speaker 2: dad is trying to look up information through the portal

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Speaker 2: online to find out when his next payment is due

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Speaker 2: for the school and he can't get in. He's like,

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Speaker 2: it's not letting me in, said, what's going on? And

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Speaker 2: she goes, AHw it's just a mess up. I'll take

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Speaker 2: care of it. Don't worry about it, dad, And that

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Speaker 2: was the first inkling, Wait a minute, I can't log

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Speaker 2: into your portal. I can't find out what I owe.

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Speaker 2: Sidney covered for a while, but not long enough. She

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Speaker 2: actually had been not just academic Lisas put on suspension.

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Speaker 2: She actually had been booted g had been kicked out

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Speaker 2: because of academics, so she was not a student anymore,

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Speaker 2: and she hadn't told her parents that.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about you, Joe, but that's going to

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Speaker 2: be a pretty bad conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. It's one thing if your

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Speaker 1: child is failing, because people fail, and they fail in

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Speaker 1: the collegiate environment. And you know when kids are at

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Speaker 1: home and the parent is standing over the shoulder, or

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Speaker 1: you have those parents that are the first people that

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Speaker 1: are going to run down to the central office or

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Speaker 1: the principal's office and complain about something that disappears at

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Speaker 1: the university level that no longer exists. So then it

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Speaker 1: becomes totally the responsibility of the student to attend to

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Speaker 1: what has to be attended to. Some people are prepared

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Speaker 1: and others are not. And just hey, look, just because

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Speaker 1: you do well on a test does not I don't

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Speaker 1: think that it's a perfect indicator of how you're going

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Speaker 1: to do once you get within that environment academically, because

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Speaker 1: all the social stuff comes into play there. Because you

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Speaker 1: can be you know, you can be an outstanding student.

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Speaker 1: I think in a very controlled environment maybe at high school,

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Speaker 1: but once you walk through through those doors at a university,

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Speaker 1: if you're not prepared emotionally, you can train wreck anything

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Speaker 1: that's on the horizon for you. And so, yeah, people

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Speaker 1: want answers. And this is no community college she's going to.

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Speaker 1: This is Mount Union and Mount Union is a private college.

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Speaker 1: And so even if you're aided through scholarship money and anything,

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Speaker 1: you're still going to come out of pocket for things.

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Speaker 1: And that was the case with the father here. He

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Speaker 1: wants to know where his money's going and why can't

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Speaker 1: he get access to it, why can't he make payments,

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Speaker 1: you know, and what's going on? And for a time

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Speaker 1: you can kind of patch it up if you're a student. Ah,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're always having I don't know, computer problems

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Speaker 1: or whatever it's on them. But sooner or later you're

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Speaker 1: going to try to figure things out and it gets

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Speaker 1: to a boiling point and you have this happen with

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Speaker 1: any kind of violent crime. There will be a boiling

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Speaker 1: point that occurs in some type of interpersonal relationship where

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Speaker 1: too much stuff has gone on unattended to, or the

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Speaker 1: perception of somebody where all of a sudden, the world

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Speaker 1: the environment just kind of explodes and you have these

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Speaker 1: really bad outcomes. And that's certainly the case here with Powell.

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Speaker 2: Very bad outcome. Yeah, I think you're understating it, just

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Speaker 2: a tad Joe.

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Speaker 1: It's I mildly understated that. Yes, I have to say,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, And it's many times they're reactive events. In

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Speaker 1: this case, I think this is an indication when you

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Speaker 1: begin to take into account everything that happened in this event,

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Speaker 1: it was reactive. And that's why this phone call that

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Speaker 1: was made by Brenda Powell to the registrar's office, perhaps

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Speaker 1: to the university, to try to get information. That's why

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Speaker 1: this phone call plays into this case so critically.

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Speaker 2: And it was actually kind of a conference called that.

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Speaker 2: You had the dean of students, you had the registrar,

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Speaker 2: you had everybody involved. They're all on the phone because

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Speaker 2: the Poles want answers what's going on. They've been told

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Speaker 2: something by Sydney that they now are finding out might

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Speaker 2: not be exactly true. And that's when and this is

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Speaker 2: the part that I'm kind of I'm still trying to

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Speaker 2: wrap my hands around this. Sydney Powell somehow had convinced

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Speaker 2: herself that she could walk on eggshells and get away

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Speaker 2: with this. But she had to know her parents were

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Speaker 2: going to find out at some point in time. Mom

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Speaker 2: and dad are going to find out, and I don't

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Speaker 2: have an answer. And that's where the powells. They're no idiots,

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Speaker 2: you know, her mom and dad are not stupid. And

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Speaker 2: when they when mom gets on the phone with the school,

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Speaker 2: they're telling her, well, your daughter's not enrolled anymore. That's

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Speaker 2: why you can't get in through the portal. She's not

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Speaker 2: actually a student here anymore. She was suspended and when

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Speaker 2: her grades didn't improve, we had to kick her out.

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Speaker 2: And Sidney knows what's going on. She knows Mom is

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Speaker 2: on the phone with the school. She knows her mom

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Speaker 2: is finding out. Now the school people, they're on the

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Speaker 2: phone hearing what happens, and that is they hear a

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Speaker 2: loud thud, a loud thud, and then screaming or screaming

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Speaker 2: an alloud thud. Because of what is taking place, there's

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Speaker 2: a little confusion. Did I hear the scream? Where the

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Speaker 2: thud or the thud or the scream? But it was

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Speaker 2: a bunch of both. And that's where our story begins,

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Speaker 2: is with the registrar and Dean of students at Mount

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Speaker 2: Union on the phone with Brenda Powell and them here

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Speaker 2: sounds they haven't heard before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one thing for me in a collegiate environment

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Speaker 1: as college professor, but as former death investigator, to be

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Speaker 1: faced with this. But can you imagine you live in

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Speaker 1: this We call it the ivy covered walls these in

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Speaker 1: this academic environment because let's face it, it's a bubble.

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Speaker 1: This is the last thing you expect to hear. But

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Speaker 1: what they were hearing, Dave, was the sound of an

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Speaker 1: iron skillet striking the head of Brenda Powell, and it

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Speaker 1: was at that moment in time she began to die

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Speaker 1: at the hands of her daughter. There are organized and

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Speaker 1: disorganized crimes. We know that for a This is something

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Speaker 1: that has been studied over and over again when it

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Speaker 1: comes to criminal behavior, particularly as it applause to homicides.

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Speaker 1: And part of disorganization is that you show up and

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Speaker 1: you really don't have a plan. It's more of a

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Speaker 1: reaction as opposed to being proactive about something. And it's

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Speaker 1: a horrible thing to say, but you have planners. You

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Speaker 1: have people that are going to perpetrate crimes where they

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Speaker 1: lay everything out before them, including the tools, the horrible

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Speaker 1: tools they are going to utilize. But Dave, in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, it would seem that Sidney Powell used what

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Speaker 1: was at her disposal, and it includes both a rusty

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Speaker 1: frying pan and also a steak knife.

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Speaker 2: Dave kind of tells you where they were standing. We

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Speaker 2: used to have a phone like hanging in the kitchen

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Speaker 2: or whatever, and I'm wondering if they were on that

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Speaker 2: kind of a house phone or not because of the

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Speaker 2: fact of the frying pan and the knife. Now dealing

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Speaker 2: with like a heavy duty frying pan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I've seen images of it and it was

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Speaker 1: presented and there's actually oxidation.

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Speaker 2: On it, like an iron skillet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is an iron skillet, and you can see

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Speaker 1: rust that has built up on it. And you can't

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Speaker 1: judge the cleanliness of a pan by that, because cast

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Speaker 1: iron skillets in particular will rust, particularly if you don't

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Speaker 1: use them. And the thing about it is, I'll give

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Speaker 1: you for an instance, my wife and I both have

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Speaker 1: cast iron pans in our kitchen. And guess what the

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Speaker 1: origin of those pans were, Dave. They actually came down

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Speaker 1: from our grandmother's I have one from my grandmother, My

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Speaker 1: wife has one from her grandmother. That doesn't necessarily mean

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Speaker 1: that we use them, but we hold on to these

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Speaker 1: things because there's something from our past and they're kind

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Speaker 1: of buried back there, and after a period of time

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Speaker 1: they'll begin to oxidize. And in this particular case, you

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Speaker 1: can actually see some of the rust within the interior

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Speaker 1: of the pan itself, so it gives you an idea

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Speaker 1: that this is something that's been possessed. It's in that

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Speaker 1: kitchen and it belongs to this family. It's not like

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Speaker 1: someone went out and purchased this for this specific attack.

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Speaker 1: It's something It is a weapon of opportunity, and we

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Speaker 1: see this played out all the time, Dave.

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Speaker 2: A frying pan, like a teflon pan, is just one

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Speaker 2: step above ten boil in a lot of cases, pretty lightweight,

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Speaker 2: but an iron skillet, they're heavy. There's something you better

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Speaker 2: be prepared to hold on to. And as a weapon,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking it's pretty good in terms of it's because

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Speaker 2: of its size and it's not going to bend. It's

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Speaker 2: going to attack.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not. And you have to be a rather

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Speaker 1: robust person in order to wield this thing. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting that over the years, frying pans

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Speaker 1: have been portrayed as something that's utilized in order to

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Speaker 1: attack someone with. It's almost a comical kind of turn.

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Speaker 1: I even think that in the original Raiders of the

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Speaker 1: Lost Arc movie, the young lady in there actually hit

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Speaker 1: someone with a frying pan, and it's almost a comic turn.

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Speaker 1: But people don't understand how heavy these things are. That

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Speaker 1: goes to another point here, and to prosecute Sidney Powell.

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Speaker 1: During her trial, the prosecution actually brought this out the

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Speaker 1: fact that she transitioned weapons. And when we hear transitioning

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Speaker 1: of weapons, that's something most of the time that you

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Speaker 1: think about with like military operators. You know, I transitioned

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Speaker 1: from my M four carbing rifle to my side arm. Well,

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, you have Sidney Powell who transitions

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Speaker 1: from an iron skillet to actually a stake knife dave

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Speaker 1: to further her attack against her mother, Brenda. Wow.

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Speaker 2: Now to go back on this, I was pulling up

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Speaker 2: the actual testimony from Michelle Gaffney. She actually testified that

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Speaker 2: she said talking about the phone call that they were

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Speaker 2: on the phone with Brenda, and she said Dean Fraser

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Speaker 2: was speaking and simply said Brenda. This is Dean Fraser.

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting here with Michelle Gaffney, our associated in his students.

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Speaker 2: We're returning your call, and then she says, that's about

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Speaker 2: as far as we got. She said, it was at

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Speaker 2: that moment when we're returning your call, and she said, quote,

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Speaker 2: there was a very large, loud thud, sound like a

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Speaker 2: pounding or a thud, accompanying by a pretty loud scream.

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Speaker 2: The scream might have actually been first and then the thud,

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Speaker 2: as I think about it, there was sort of an explosion.

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Speaker 2: Another sound that I heard about that same time or

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Speaker 2: right after was sort of like an explosion of air.

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Speaker 2: The air was knocked out of somebody. Now we've heard

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Speaker 2: the phrase I had the wind knocked out of me,

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Speaker 2: something along those lines. But she said another sound that

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Speaker 2: I heard about the same time or right after that

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Speaker 2: was sort of like an explosion of air was knocked

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Speaker 2: out of somebody. Joe, what would that sound like to

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Speaker 2: have the air knocked out and what would the impact

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Speaker 2: be on the victim who has the wind knocked out

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Speaker 2: of them?

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Speaker 1: It's hard to know. And I found that testimony quite

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Speaker 1: interesting because it's hard to know if what they were

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Speaker 1: hearing was almost a reactive gasp to being struck, because

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Speaker 1: even though an individual is being bludgeoned with something in

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Speaker 1: this case, this skillet, even though they're being bludgeoned with

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Speaker 1: something like this, a heavy object, it doesn't necessarily mean

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Speaker 1: they are literally having you know, they're being struck in

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Speaker 1: their core and the wind is being knocked out. You know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of us have been fallen to the ground

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Speaker 1: or been hit playing some kind of sport and you

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Speaker 1: have your wind literally knocked out and you kind of

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Speaker 1: exhale or you're trying to gasp for breath. If an

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Speaker 1: individual were to be struck, for instance, in the back

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Speaker 1: of the head, that could actually disrupt their ability to

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Speaker 1: breathe for a moment where it's almost you know, of

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Speaker 1: course you would hear potentially, depend upon the quality of

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Speaker 1: the call, you would actually hear a thud preceding that

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Speaker 1: kind of gasp for air. It would be something that

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Speaker 1: would be partly shock. It would be a physiological reaction

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Speaker 1: to it. But here's the thing. Even with the initial strike,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to escape the fact

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Speaker 1: that this individual would not have gone down immediately. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: I think many people that watch any number of television

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Speaker 1: shows from over the years. It's weird. An actor will

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Speaker 1: take a heavy object and will strike somebody in the

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Speaker 1: head and immediately that person collapses. That doesn't happen. If

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Speaker 1: it does happen, the attacker would have to strike the

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Speaker 1: person in the precise location to render them unconscious immediately.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't happen like this. This again, is a randomized attack.

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Speaker 1: And you've got a young lady wielding an iron skillet

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Speaker 1: attacking her mother. Now, even though this thing is heavy,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to that first blow is not going

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Speaker 1: to First off, it's not going to kill her, and secondly,

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Speaker 1: it's less likely that it is going to create unconscious state.

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Speaker 1: At that point in time, she's going to be aware

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Speaker 1: that she is a attacked. And the reason I know

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Speaker 1: this is that when an assessment was done on Sidney

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Speaker 1: Powell following this, the fact is she had injuries on

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Speaker 1: her that would be consistent with trying to fend off

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Speaker 1: an attack by someone else. So what that means is

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Speaker 1: there's a probability that Brenda may have attempted to fight

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Speaker 1: back as her daughter is attacking her, not just with

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Speaker 1: the skillet, but also this knife that comes into play

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean to you investigating a depth when

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Speaker 2: somebody actually changes their equipment, they change their tools.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a fantastic point. We talked about transitioning

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Speaker 1: of weapons a moment ago. I think the weight of

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Speaker 1: something like an iron skillet, if you've never held one

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Speaker 1: and you're curious about it, next time you go to

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Speaker 1: the store, particularly if you go to a place that

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Speaker 1: has camping equipment, they actually sell cast iron there where

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Speaker 1: you can go pick just pick one of these things

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Speaker 1: up and feel and you can get the weight of

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Speaker 1: it in your hand and imagine attempting to swing this

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Speaker 1: thing over and over again. Now, when you do that,

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Speaker 1: you'll see that it is cumbersome because it's not made

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Speaker 1: for this purpose. It's different if you're wielding something like

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Speaker 1: a baseball bat. It's got to handle. It's got the

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Speaker 1: barrel of the bat. That's what it's referred to. And

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Speaker 1: I know you know that because you're a baseball player day.

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Speaker 1: But it's made for clubbing right with a frying pan

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Speaker 1: an iron skillet, if you will. It's got a short handle.

377
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Speaker 1: You can't leverage the thing really well, and then it's

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Speaker 1: unwieldy because you have the pan portion of it that's

379
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Speaker 1: deep and cast iron is very very heavy, and it's

380
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Speaker 1: hard to balance. And if you're diminutive in any way,

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Speaker 1: you don't have good upper body strength. And Sidney Powell

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Speaker 1: does not look like she's the fittest of the fit here.

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Speaker 1: After maybe two or three blows, I would think you

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Speaker 1: would begin to weaken greatly. Adrenaline will only carry you

385
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Speaker 1: so far. And trust me, there's adrenaline at work here.

386
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Speaker 1: So if you go from this heavy blunt object, you're

387
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Speaker 1: looking around, well, what's the most convenient thing that I

388
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Speaker 1: can do? And it's registering in your mind as the attacker,

389
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Speaker 1: what has the highest probability of lethality and the default position,

390
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Speaker 1: particularly in this case Dave, is a knife. There's a

391
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Speaker 1: theme that runs through these events where you have people

392
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Speaker 1: that are injured multiple times. It goes to things like

393
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Speaker 1: facial disfiguration. You're not just savagely attacking them for the

394
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Speaker 1: purpose of killing them, but you're going to the point

395
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Speaker 1: where you're trying to maim them to disfigure them. Because

396
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Speaker 1: there's so much anger that's involved in this. This goes

397
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Speaker 1: to the idea that this event, this homicide, was not

398
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Speaker 1: a planned event, who in their right mind and I

399
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: got to be real careful about using that term because

400
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 1: that comes into play in the trial. But who in

401
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: the right mind would sit there and say, Okay, I

402
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: think it's a good idea to have witnesses, though they

403
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: be ear witnesses to this event of me attacking my mother.

404
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: But on the flip side, this goes to kind of

405
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 1: an idea of thinking beyond whatever kind of psychopathology that

406
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: you might be dealing with. I got to make this

407
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Speaker 1: look like something else, so we're not just talking about

408
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Speaker 1: this bludgeoning. And then we've got multiple sharp force injuries.

409
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Speaker 2: She actually stabs your mom what thirty times in the

410
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Speaker 2: neck region. I'm going to say that because thirty times

411
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Speaker 2: in the neck seems to be a bit of overkill.

412
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Speaker 1: Thirty stab winds approximately because it's real hard, and we

413
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Speaker 1: can get into the nature of those injuries. But now

414
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: you've got Sidney Powell who goes over and didn't she

415
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Speaker 1: knock in a window, Dave in order to make it

416
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: look like I don't know, what was she trying to

417
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 1: make it look like, well.

418
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Speaker 2: You know what, we mentioned that on the phone, you

419
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: have the administration from Mount Union. They're on the phone

420
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Speaker 2: still and after Sidney has used the frying pan and

421
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: beat her mother head and everything else and then stabs her. Well,

422
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: they're still on the phone, and Sydney actually picks up

423
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Speaker 2: the phone and she hears one of the saying Brenda,

424
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 2: and Sydney actually answers, yes, this is Brenda. And the

425
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: administrator he knows it's not her. He knows it's Sydney.

426
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Speaker 2: She sounds different than her mother, she's nineteen. And he said, Sidney,

427
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Speaker 2: I know this is you. I know this is not Brenda.

428
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Speaker 2: And that's when Sydney hung up the phone. They called

429
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 2: the police, they being the Mountain Union University. They called

430
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: nine one one and say, hey man, something bad's going on.

431
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Speaker 2: We were on the phone herd a fight break out.

432
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: We hear screaming, we hear thudding, and that's when Sydney

433
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 2: she hangs up the phone. She starts thinking what do

434
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: I do now? Well, her first thought is stage it

435
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 2: to look like a home invasion, and so she breaks

436
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 2: the glass in a window to try to make it

437
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: look like somebody had come inside that house and grabbed

438
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: a frying pan and a knife and just started doing damage. Now,

439
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: Sidney did have a couple of wounds on her that

440
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 2: required treatment. Now I don't know what type of wounds

441
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: they were, but I know that usually when there's a

442
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 2: knife being used by somebody, oftentimes they cut themselves their

443
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: hands slips from the blood. So Sidney did have some wounds,

444
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: but she did try to stage the scene as if

445
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: there had been a home invasion.

446
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's something that's kind of fascinating about this, going

447
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: back to these college administrators that are on the phone.

448
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: They're in Alliance, Ohio. The pals didn't live in Alliance, Ohio.

449
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: They lived in Summit County, Ohio. And so the fact

450
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: that and this is always fascinating because I've been involved

451
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: in a couple of cases like this where people have

452
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: been on the phone and an event has occurred and

453
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 1: they're like a distance away from the people that were

454
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: on the phone. You have to get off the phone

455
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: and then call another jurisdiction or call You're nine one

456
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: one and say, look, we were just talking to this

457
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: mom and her daughter, and we think that something bad

458
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: has happened. Can you imagine being on the other end

459
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: of that line as these administrators and they're thinking, what

460
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: did we just hear? What happened, and they obviously think

461
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: that it's something horrible because now they're calling nine to

462
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: one one to send somebody out there. And when you know,

463
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: when the police arrived out there at the scene, it's

464
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 1: a horror show. You know, when they show up. You

465
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: got broken glass, You've got this young person, this woman,

466
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: Sidney Powell, who's saying that someone actually came into the

467
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: house and attacked her mother. Now, why in the world,

468
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 1: in the family's neighborhood would some random person knock out

469
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: this glass an attempt to break in and then all

470
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: of a sudden attack the mother. You know, we've already

471
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: established that the mother is like she's regarded by many

472
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: as like an angel on earth, the way she's treated

473
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: people over the years in the hospital. Who could have

474
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: any kind of animosity toward this woman.

475
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 2: That's the shocking thing is that a neighbor actually saw

476
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: Sydney come running out of the house and in the

477
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: front yard. It was just as crazy because you Brenda

478
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: is in the house and Sydney, in her whatever state

479
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: of mind, in trying to make it look like there

480
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: had been a home invasion, she goes out in the

481
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: front yard and as this happens, a neighbor hears sirens,

482
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: they hear all the sirens showing up and everything else.

483
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 2: So Sydney did not have an incredibly long period of

484
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 2: time to stage this as a scene that would look

485
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 2: like it was a home invasion. And again you're talking

486
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 2: about daytime neighbors are home. In her mind's actually staging

487
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: it to look like a Robert just decided to pick

488
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: their house and break in and attack for no reason,

489
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: you know, this angel on earth. And that's that was

490
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: her thought process. Apparently, Yeah, and she understands. And here's

491
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: the thing. This goes to one of the things that

492
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: you try to understand relative to the law and how

493
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 2: these cases are evaluated. And certainly I think that insanity

494
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: came in as a potential defense for Sydney Powell, or

495
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: it was hinted at that she's got multiple psychological issues

496
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 2: that she's having to deal with. And what you try

497
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: to determine is the idea of menace ray, which means

498
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: guilty mind, and it comes from the Latin minice ray.

499
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: And you're, you know, the person, they're trying to assess

500
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: them as to whether or not with a guilty mind

501
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: that they have an awareness of guilt and then you

502
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 2: have to have what's referred to as the actess ray

503
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: and the actus ray is the guilty act. And so

504
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: when you have both of these and I think I've

505
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: spoken of this before and we'll speak it again, if

506
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: you have both of those elements together, you get what's

507
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: referred to as concurrence. So both of those things come together.

508
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: Did she have a guilty mind? Was she aware that

509
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: this was wrong? Well, one of the things if you're

510
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: going about staging something, when we get there as forensics people,

511
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: we can try to understand, Well, first off, what was

512
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: the location of the broken glass?

513
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: Is it the door? What is it consistent with someone

514
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: trying to knock out, say a side panel of glass

515
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: and stick their hand through it and try to open

516
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: the lock, manipulate the locked again in or is it

517
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: adjacent to a locked window and you're trying to get

518
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: access to the locking mechanism of the window so you

519
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: can open it and crawl in. And this is very

520
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: broad terms. If you break the window, is it in

521
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: a location let's say that it's at the top of

522
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: the window. Well, why in the world would someone break

523
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: the top of the window and not break the window

524
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: in order to facilitate getting in. You know, you can

525
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: knock glass out of any but it doesn't mean it's

526
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: not going to point to with somebody that has organized

527
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: thought and they're thinking, well, we're trying to get into

528
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: this place in order to steal or harm whoever's in there.

529
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: You just got broken glass, man, And that's one of

530
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: the things we're going to look at. And we're also

531
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: going to look at the direction of the glass. Was

532
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: a glass broken from the inside and it's blown out,

533
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: or is it broken from the outside and blown in.

534
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: We look at the edges of the glass to see

535
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: if it's got inter internal beveling, for instance. We're going

536
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: to check it to see if this area would facilitate

537
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: a person being able to get into that. And then

538
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: if we have a suspect in any way that we

539
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: think may have done something, we're going to look for

540
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: glass fragments on their clothing, because clothing, when it comes

541
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: to broken glass, is something that the individual could just

542
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: be covered with any kind of glass particles or anything

543
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: like that that just doesn't exist here in this particular case.

544
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: So she was actually charged with tampering with evidence, and

545
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: I found that very very interesting relative to the prosecution's

546
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: case against Sidney Powell, because that goes to this idea

547
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: of acts ray our minicerae, where you have not only

548
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: the guilty act, but you have the guilty mind. Here, Dave, I.

549
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: Got to ask you about back to the stab wounds

550
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: of the neck and the blunt forced from the frying pan,

551
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: how do you determine what was the cause of death

552
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 2: when you've got a frying pan used for beating and

553
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: a knife. Can you separate the two and say it

554
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: was this or that or is it a combination of both?

555
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: Well, in this particular case, when the medical examiner actually

556
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: testified at the trial, what they came up with in

557
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: this particular trial was that the cause of death was

558
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: a combination of both. And this is why when the

559
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: medical examiner did their assessment of this blunt force trauma

560
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: that she would have sustained, they're going to try to see,

561
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: first off, anatomically, where were these strikes located, And you

562
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: can assess that externally because with a blunt force strike,

563
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: you're going to see lacerations, and with lacerations you have

564
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: was referred to as tissue bridging, and they're nasty and

565
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: they're jagged, and that's interesting because you're also dealing with

566
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: stab wounds here too, Dave. So stab wounds might look

567
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: like a laceration, but they're not because there won't be

568
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: tissue bridging with stab wound, and that means the edges

569
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: will be clean because you've got this knife that's being

570
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: inserted into the tissue. With blunt force trauma, you're literally

571
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: ripping the skin every time that skillet strikes. If it's

572
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: if the area is struck hard enough, that laceration occurs

573
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: from that blunt force trauma to literally tear the skin.

574
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: That's why they look so jagged, and you have to

575
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: assess externally. You know, okay, well, is this a stab

576
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: wound or is this a laceration. That's why we're very

577
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: specific when we begin to talk about these things in forensics.

578
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: Then when you get internally, because it's not just an

579
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: external examination and it was certainly not in the case

580
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: of Brenda, you have to understand what anatomical structures were impacted.

581
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: First off, within the brain, because she's striking the outside

582
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: of the skull. Here, you've got the laceration. You're going

583
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: to have a big focal area of hemorrhage on the outside.

584
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: More than likely overlying the external table of skull. But

585
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: then when you get into the inside and you look

586
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: at the brain, there'll be big focal areas of hemorrhage

587
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: there and that creates pressure on the brain and depended

588
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: upon where she was struck on the brain, that can

589
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: really compromise her ability to breathe and respire everything. And

590
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: then you combine that with the assessment that's done on

591
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: these multiple stab wounds on the neck, and because there

592
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: are so many, it's hard to try to understand how

593
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: many there actually were. And I know that you and

594
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: I have spoken of this before, Dave. Where you have

595
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: such overkill that's going on, you will have these wounds

596
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: that are communicating with one another, so you can have

597
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: a stab wound on top of a stab wound, and

598
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: so we can't really assess the order that these actually

599
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: came in. We can only enumerate them. And then it's

600
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: going to be totality of the injuries that's going to

601
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: lead to her death, and it certainly was in the

602
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: case of Brenda Powell. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

603
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: is bodybacks