Speaker 1: Hello.
Speaker 2: I'm producer David Guggenheim, and this may be one of
Speaker 2: the more controversial episodes of Really No Really. Millions of
Speaker 2: people are microdosing, taking small amounts of psychedelic mushrooms, LSD
Speaker 2: and other hallucinogenic substances, all without any supervision by a physician.
Speaker 2: Many claim it reduces anxiety and depression, and enhances mood
Speaker 2: and boosts creativity and productivity. But are these claims purely
Speaker 2: anecdotal or is there robust scientific evidence to support them.
Speaker 2: Jason and Peter were determined to find out my.
Speaker 3: Mom now really, so Jay, really really No one has
Speaker 3: stopped us.
Speaker 4: Yet, And this one is about microdosing and the really
Speaker 4: not really here is my grandparents are doing it, my
Speaker 4: cousin's doing everybody's doing it. What's the science?
Speaker 5: It's like, Now, this is a thing where I agree
Speaker 5: with you you say my mother's doing I know anecdotally
Speaker 5: a dozen people that are doing this and that we're
Speaker 5: doing it to speak to conditions and problems they were having,
Speaker 5: and across the board, with one exception, they have all
Speaker 5: reported having a positive refect.
Speaker 4: That's the deal. It's all. It's a lot of anecdotal
Speaker 4: and I know, I have a feeling on this episode.
Speaker 5: When I did it, I you know, I was singing
Speaker 5: Sweet Sue under a stairwell.
Speaker 6: But other than that, I felt nothing.
Speaker 4: He got he took one tab of acid. I had
Speaker 4: to watch the entire show of hair with him naked
Speaker 4: in his bedroom, went from beginning to end. You chose
Speaker 4: to do and odd that you would do?
Speaker 6: He chose to So how dare you? How dare you?
Speaker 7: So?
Speaker 4: I think we'll get pushedback because a lot of people assume, oh, oh,
Speaker 4: you're gonna throw you know, a wet blanket on this,
Speaker 4: But it works. Every works. It's anecdotal. So I figured,
Speaker 4: let's find out somebody who's actually doing the research. There's
Speaker 4: not a lot of places doing the research. Research absolutely,
Speaker 4: and again I'm not for it. I'm not against it.
Speaker 4: I don't have any kind of bias. It's just a
Speaker 4: really really is. Everybody's acting like it's a done deal.
Speaker 4: So we got on doctor Frederick Barrett. He works at
Speaker 4: john Hopkins and it's the School of Medicine Center.
Speaker 5: John's Johns Hopkins where I think you said, John Hopkins,
Speaker 5: and everybody the.
Speaker 4: Way is there a number Johns? It? When it's Johns Hopkins.
Speaker 4: Does that mean there were a couple of John's.
Speaker 1: There was one person whose last name was John Johns.
Speaker 1: And some people get very very.
Speaker 8: Bent out of shape about this. Jason, you're you're correct,
Speaker 8: and Peter, you're not sorry.
Speaker 4: You know what we got. J You're correct. Doctor, We
Speaker 4: gotta go somebody the door. So we read another expert
Speaker 4: working in England, Jason, So doctor Barrett. It's the Center
Speaker 4: for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research. So I'm guessing that in
Speaker 4: your deal life, when people know what you do, are
Speaker 4: they skeptical? Is it like, well, why wait, it works already.
Speaker 4: I'm sure you're family members to tell you anecdotally, your
Speaker 4: cousin Leonard is so much better. What do you mean
Speaker 4: you're telling me it doesn't work?
Speaker 6: So how is that? In fact?
Speaker 5: What is the nature of what you're studying? And we
Speaker 5: don't want to, you know, put the card before the horse.
Speaker 6: What are you learning? What is their goal of the study?
Speaker 8: We have multiple studies underway at the Center for psychodol
Speaker 8: Conconscious Research.
Speaker 1: And I've been doing this now for about ten years.
Speaker 8: And I have to say that when I started doing
Speaker 8: this ten years ago, I told my mother what I
Speaker 8: was doing and She said, wait a minute, isn't that
Speaker 8: like acid? Does that stuff make you jump out of windows?
Speaker 8: And I said, well, my mom, it's.
Speaker 6: Not like that.
Speaker 1: But you know, we don't have windows in our session rooms.
Speaker 1: But the point, but.
Speaker 8: It's that these drugs are such powerful modulators of consciousness.
Speaker 8: When they were first studied in the fifties and sixties,
Speaker 8: there were thousands of studies going on in the United
Speaker 8: States and around the world, some that showed some interesting
Speaker 8: results for LSD to treat depression, to treat various forms
Speaker 8: of substance, used to sort of to treat chronic pain,
Speaker 8: or cancer related pain, all sorts of things. And with
Speaker 8: the Controlled Substances Act, all of this came to a
Speaker 8: screeching halt. But it was my mentor, Roland Griffiths, who
Speaker 8: was the founding director of the Center, who had one
Speaker 8: of the first modern studies with psilocybin that kind of
Speaker 8: broke this all back open and we began to think, well,
Speaker 8: these are incredibly powerful drugs. They need to be administered
Speaker 8: under carefully controlled settings with properly screened individuals, But once
Speaker 8: you get past those things, they seem to be incredibly safe.
Speaker 8: And who can we help with this and it turns
Speaker 8: out that the data so far suggests that macro doses,
Speaker 8: like large heroic doses of psychedelic drugs, may have therapeutic
Speaker 8: effects and patients with depression, patients who are smokers who
Speaker 8: can't quit, people who are drinking alcohol who can't quit,
Speaker 8: and possibly other indications.
Speaker 4: So what is a macrodose By the way you said
Speaker 4: it again.
Speaker 1: Macrodose is a large dose. It's a psychoactive dose.
Speaker 8: It's a those that makes you, you know for better words,
Speaker 8: feel like you're tripping. And the doses that we're finding
Speaker 8: to be therapeutic are doses.
Speaker 1: They're very strong, very strong trips, if you will.
Speaker 8: But all of the data that's been published to date,
Speaker 8: except for the most recent study that was just published
Speaker 8: from a multi center trial about over two hundred people
Speaker 8: were treated and they found that, wow, there's evidence for
Speaker 8: an enduring effect of a single high dose of psilocybin.
Speaker 8: But the question now is, well, how much can we
Speaker 8: learn about the safety parameters here? We have to take
Speaker 8: most of the studies, which are small pilot or proof
Speaker 8: of concept studies, and expand them to two more rigorous
Speaker 8: clinical trials. So that's what we're doing at Hopkins, and
Speaker 8: that's what's being done at a number of other research
Speaker 8: institutes around the world. But I guess the question here
Speaker 8: is that's all good, but what about this microdosing.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, as of today, if you had to give
Speaker 4: a verdict on microro saying, my understanding is this, you
Speaker 4: can't even test it on depressed people yet, because getting
Speaker 4: somebody off their meds, testing it, then putting them back
Speaker 4: on their mentioned hoping the receptors will will uptake the
Speaker 4: mens the same way. That's a big liability. You got
Speaker 4: to test the first on.
Speaker 8: Healthy people, right, It is a liability. But that's what
Speaker 8: we're doing right now in our studies of depression. And
Speaker 8: there are plenty of people in the world who are
Speaker 8: taking medication and it's not working or it's not working
Speaker 8: as well as it should. And there are a lot
Speaker 8: of people in the world for whom they tried multiple medications,
Speaker 8: they may have even tried like electric convulsive therapy ECT.
Speaker 8: When you get to that point, it usually works, but
Speaker 8: it's a pretty big hammer and it has a lot
Speaker 8: of risks. So there are a lot of people in
Speaker 8: the world that don't want to go that far and
Speaker 8: just simply haven't found a solution.
Speaker 1: So there are people out there to study.
Speaker 8: But yes, with all of these things, the first thing
Speaker 8: to do is study them in healthy people first to
Speaker 8: make sure you understand.
Speaker 1: The risks and how far a long is that was microdosing.
Speaker 8: There are no clinical trials available in therapeutications. There are
Speaker 8: a small number of clinical trials that have been conducted
Speaker 8: in healthy people. But here's where it gets a little
Speaker 8: complicated because the prescription for microdosing, if you will, and
Speaker 8: I'm not giving out medical advice right now, but when
Speaker 8: people microdose, what they say they do is they take
Speaker 8: a small dose of a psychedelic drug every few days
Speaker 8: for like a few weeks or a few months, right,
Speaker 8: And the idea is that over time, you take this
Speaker 8: micro doose, the small dose. And what people say when
Speaker 8: they say microdose, what they mean can be different things.
Speaker 8: Some people, when they say microdose, they mean a dose
Speaker 8: that's small enough that I can't even detect that it's
Speaker 8: in me or that it's having an effect. And other
Speaker 8: people say microdose is well, you know, I can feel
Speaker 8: a little tingling, my vision is a little changed, but it's.
Speaker 1: Not like a full on trip.
Speaker 8: It's not an overwhelming experience, and just there you can
Speaker 8: get caught up in the weeds of well, which one's right,
Speaker 8: which one is going to work, which one's going to
Speaker 8: work for what indication or what stillness, And we don't know.
Speaker 1: But the line share of studies.
Speaker 8: That have been conducted and healthy people have not been
Speaker 8: conducted on a long term course of microdosing. They've been
Speaker 8: conducted on a single micro dose and there's so you
Speaker 8: can see one of the problems here is we haven't
Speaker 8: really studied microdosing yet the way people.
Speaker 1: Are microdosing out in the world.
Speaker 8: But out of the studies that have been conducted in
Speaker 8: a laboratory setting, there's pretty much nothing to say there
Speaker 8: are no effects. There was one study that was published
Speaker 8: in older healthy adults that had really clever marketing. They said, listen, hey, wow,
Speaker 8: we've administered a microdose to all of these people and
Speaker 8: we saw no signal for risks.
Speaker 1: So that's great.
Speaker 8: But the problem is they didn't see a signal for
Speaker 8: anything at all. So how can you have a risk
Speaker 8: for it for some.
Speaker 6: Not to be pedestrian.
Speaker 5: Okay, but if you're in the job of doing a
Speaker 5: clinical study and you realize on a healthy person, one
Speaker 5: experience wields no data whatsoever other than ineffectual. Why don't
Speaker 5: you immediately go well, then let's do a more ongoing study.
Speaker 5: Is there are you being prevented from that? Is the
Speaker 5: funding not there for that? Why not do a more
Speaker 5: profound study.
Speaker 1: It's the next step.
Speaker 8: I think a lot of people thought this is a
Speaker 8: reasonable first step. And since that yielded nothing, let's go further.
Speaker 8: And I know there are individuals and labs who are
Speaker 8: planning these more comprehensive studies.
Speaker 1: We just haven't gotten there yet. We're still really early.
Speaker 4: For God's pressure on him.
Speaker 6: He's got all these fancy titles.
Speaker 5: He works Johns Hopkins and the living is up.
Speaker 4: He's not sitting on his hands. He's doing the studies.
Speaker 4: The most important thing here is the placebo effect is
Speaker 4: what people are talking about right now, because there has
Speaker 4: been no research that it works. The other thing I'm
Speaker 4: curious about because the decent said funding so pharmaceutical companies.
Speaker 4: I know that Silicon Valley's jumping through hoops to fund
Speaker 4: this stuff to be the next company to be the
Speaker 4: psilocybin masters. But they like stuff it's long term that
Speaker 4: doesn't fix people right away. If you take a couple
Speaker 4: of doses of this and they find not you're better
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, one of the companies And I'm
Speaker 4: not picking up whoever the company know, I'm just simping.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 6: Take out the name of any photo.
Speaker 4: The farmer company, the farmer company, the farmers.
Speaker 6: In the final project. Don't thank you.
Speaker 4: I said it once. Jason now said it eleven times.
Speaker 5: I didn't say seven times.
Speaker 4: The doctor said, you are such a problem, why do
Speaker 4: we have you on? So so, if they are looking
Speaker 4: for long term stuff, I had a doctor on once,
Speaker 4: you said if polio happened today, they wouldn't find a cure.
Speaker 4: They would do like design or iron lungs and the
Speaker 4: hook up to your iPad. Is that true that the
Speaker 4: pharmaceutical companies are not as interested because it may be
Speaker 4: one dose or two dose and you're better.
Speaker 8: I could imagine that's part of their calculus. Another problem
Speaker 8: is that you can't patent psilocybin. It's a naturally occurring compound.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 8: There are a lot of companies that are now trying
Speaker 8: to come up with analogues of known psychedelic drugs, so
Speaker 8: new chemicals that are closely related slightly different, and then
Speaker 8: you'll pull out the gimmicks so well, this one is
Speaker 8: a little faster acting, or this one does as much
Speaker 8: or whatever.
Speaker 6: Maximum strengths.
Speaker 4: Telling Jerry strength.
Speaker 5: There's a great Jerry Seinfeld with tea, and where he goes,
Speaker 5: what's the you know, we're crazy about strength.
Speaker 6: First three we had strength, it was not good enough.
Speaker 5: Then we needed extra strength, and then I think his
Speaker 5: routine goes and then we needed maximum strength, and they go, well.
Speaker 4: What's that?
Speaker 5: They go, We'll figure out what will kill me and
Speaker 5: back it off just a.
Speaker 4: Little bit because here here's the other part of this.
Speaker 4: So my cousin Liner says, I'm doing this. I go,
Speaker 4: how did you figure how many times a week to
Speaker 4: do it? Was that ran? How do you know what
Speaker 4: you're buying, who you're buying it from, how are they
Speaker 4: how are they vetting it? And these ayahuasca ceremonies, which,
Speaker 4: by the way, producer law is going to come in
Speaker 4: no matter what you say or how dangerous it does,
Speaker 4: it is not going to cut it. She'll do it.
Speaker 4: She'll go to another country, have some shaman give her
Speaker 4: something that's going to make her throw up, pass out,
Speaker 4: and she'll say it was great. It was great because
Speaker 4: because a matter of fact, how do you know what
Speaker 4: you're buying and how do you know how many times
Speaker 4: to do it?
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's exactly. That's that's one of the many
Speaker 1: problems here.
Speaker 8: And there are lots of analogues of psychedelic drugs, like
Speaker 8: things that are sold as LSD but they aren't LSD
Speaker 8: l U the psilocybin. For the right person who doesn't
Speaker 8: have other contraindications, it's it's rather physiologically safe. But some
Speaker 8: of these other compounds that are synthesized to mimic the
Speaker 8: drugs are not safe at all, and they have led
Speaker 8: to deaths. This is a serious problem that if you
Speaker 8: don't know what compounds and what drugs are ingesting, you
Speaker 8: could be putting yourself in a lot more risk than
Speaker 8: you think.
Speaker 4: You hear.
Speaker 5: But I may also ask, if I may protect doctor Barrett,
Speaker 5: why are you asking him? You're asking him basically, where
Speaker 5: would I get this stuff on the street and how
Speaker 5: do I know it's pure? Are you trying to ask
Speaker 5: him a question like that? He's getting it from reliable,
Speaker 5: sanctioned source.
Speaker 4: So they're making treating him like he's going to an
Speaker 4: alley with it's like showing me the money, show me
Speaker 4: the I mean, you know, if I can get the infro,
Speaker 4: why not get there? But is it like Santa's Labs
Speaker 4: they're cooking up batches right now on your lab.
Speaker 8: Or what there are there are pharmaceutical companies who are
Speaker 8: producing uh, you know, top quality. What the FP says
Speaker 8: is it meets GMP standards Good Manufacturing Practice of standards,
Speaker 8: so they're a high standard parmaceutical grade drugs. And and
Speaker 8: there are companies who are producing psilocybin for research use
Speaker 8: at these standards. But yeah, one of the risks for
Speaker 8: microdosing is that you don't know exactly what you're getting.
Speaker 8: Another is that people don't really know there's no real
Speaker 8: data on what is the best prescription if you take
Speaker 8: a dose that you can't detect. And here's another problem
Speaker 8: that I have with this is that if you're saying
Speaker 8: that you're taking a dose that you can't detect, but
Speaker 8: it's doing something good for you, well then you can
Speaker 8: detect it, right, So which is but it's really you know,
Speaker 8: I don't want to discount or discredit or undermine someone's
Speaker 8: lived experience. If someone has a live experience with this
Speaker 8: and they thought, they felt it was helpful for them.
Speaker 8: That's great, but we have to be careful about what
Speaker 8: we're attributing to what. And one of the best microdosing
Speaker 8: studies that's been conducted to date is one out of
Speaker 8: Imperial College London where they came up with a really
Speaker 8: clever way of instructing people who were going to go
Speaker 8: ahead and do this anyway to self blind. So they
Speaker 8: gave people instructions put put them in certain envelopes, and
Speaker 8: then the envelopes and then you don't.
Speaker 1: Know what you're getting in any particular day.
Speaker 8: And so people blinded themselves and they went through a
Speaker 8: course of uh, you know, one course of treatment, and
Speaker 8: then they took a break and took another course of treatment,
Speaker 8: and then afterwards broke the blind and they figured out
Speaker 8: which was the.
Speaker 1: Active and which was not.
Speaker 8: And it turns out people had a better response to
Speaker 8: their placebo condition than they did to their active drug.
Speaker 5: Condition, which is why I've said you and I we're
Speaker 5: going to open if you want.
Speaker 6: They only makes placebo.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because ripped all the function right heart disease, and yeah,
Speaker 4: take the placebo. It's much cheaper than the drug you're taking.
Speaker 4: Forget it.
Speaker 6: Placebo city Absolutely there.
Speaker 8: There was a drug that was prescribed many decades ago
Speaker 8: called Obacalp, and doctors would actually prescribe to the placebo
Speaker 8: spelled backwards.
Speaker 1: Doctors would actually describe.
Speaker 8: Oba coal for certain things that they thought were psychosomatic
Speaker 8: or some other kind of was a sugar pill.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think my mother was on that for thirty
Speaker 4: two years.
Speaker 6: Oh but obrake good for her?
Speaker 4: Who knew that? Did you know that?
Speaker 1: Law?
Speaker 4: Or Laurie? Go through an obercal clinic and take that good?
Speaker 8: You got to come up with maximum strength Obercal's.
Speaker 4: We're in doctor. I don't know what they're paying you there,
Speaker 4: but we can pony up some money down. Can you
Speaker 4: imagine onad the head of Obercal collo testing. Oh my god, wow, obercalc.
Speaker 6: Calp colp, don't miss me. Don't don't send people to
Speaker 6: the wrong product.
Speaker 4: If you can't afford if you can't afford the medicine,
Speaker 4: and you can't afford the generic, we've got the placebo
Speaker 4: and it works better than both.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I'm sure I can answer this question myself.
Speaker 5: Has anyone in the microdesting studies ever had a bad
Speaker 5: reaction to it that even I'm aware of No. Okay,
Speaker 5: so it doesn't it doesn't do any intrinsic harm at
Speaker 5: least in this in these studies.
Speaker 8: Well maybe so here's here's here's Another dimension of this
Speaker 8: to consider is that in the studies that have been
Speaker 8: conducted in the laboratory, like I said, you know, they've
Speaker 8: administered one or there was one study that was very
Speaker 8: recently administered like up to a week or two of microdoses.
Speaker 8: But that still doesn't that still doesn't fit the prescription
Speaker 8: that the people are using out in the world. But
Speaker 8: there is a theoretical risk here. There are dozens and
Speaker 8: dozens of receptors.
Speaker 1: All over your body and your brain and your spinal
Speaker 1: cordo one.
Speaker 8: Hundreds or more receptors, and one of the receptors that
Speaker 8: psilocybin specifically binds to and is active at is called
Speaker 8: the serotonin to B receptor.
Speaker 1: The serotonin receptors are not only in your brain.
Speaker 8: There are actually a lot of them are expressed in
Speaker 8: your cardiovascular system. And there are a number of drugs
Speaker 8: that have been pulled from the market for other reasons
Speaker 8: in other circumstances that bound to this and activated this
Speaker 8: two B receptor on heart muscles, and caused cardiac problems
Speaker 8: for it there before. So it's possible that taking a
Speaker 8: microdose of a dry and it's not been proven.
Speaker 1: It's only a theoretical risk.
Speaker 8: But again enough studies haven't been conducted that if you're
Speaker 8: taking a microdose of a psychedelic over time, then it
Speaker 8: may put you at.
Speaker 1: Risk for some of these cardiac problems.
Speaker 4: Is there also not to be receptor?
Speaker 8: Not to be?
Speaker 6: I know somebody was going to take it.
Speaker 5: Somebody was going to take it, and it's the guy
Speaker 5: who has never seen a Shakespeare play decided to go
Speaker 5: for that or not.
Speaker 4: So I'm curious, Jason, and we're talking about this, and
Speaker 4: people go into a profession a lot of times influenced
Speaker 4: by their parents. Did your parents follow a fish around
Speaker 4: and go to eighty two concerts or something? Is this
Speaker 4: how you got into the No?
Speaker 1: No, In fact, that's a very interesting question.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: No, My father was a contractor and my mother is
Speaker 1: an artist. And I got into all of this almost
Speaker 1: by accident.
Speaker 8: I tell people, I went to Temple University in Philadelphia
Speaker 8: for undergrad and I was a music education major, and.
Speaker 4: That's where I went Temple. I first couldn't get in
Speaker 4: anywhere else you went because you had good grades.
Speaker 8: Okay, temple owls are everywhere, But basically, you know, I
Speaker 8: had a dark night of the soul with music teaching,
Speaker 8: and I ended.
Speaker 1: Up getting really into psychology.
Speaker 8: I ended up working at a schizophrenic research lab at
Speaker 8: U Penn and found.
Speaker 1: A love for the brain.
Speaker 8: And I learned that, you know, I was playing music
Speaker 8: to explore emotions and understand the motions of myself and
Speaker 8: help communicate myself.
Speaker 1: That's why I loved music and wanted to teach it.
Speaker 8: And I found a grad school program in psychology where
Speaker 8: I could study the effects of music on emotions and memory.
Speaker 8: So I brought it full circle and studied the neuroscience
Speaker 8: of music, emotions and music and memories. And I've always
Speaker 8: been fascinated by altered states of consciousness and playing music
Speaker 8: can be an altered state of consciousness. And a colleague
Speaker 8: of mine, Katherine MacLean, was a couple of years ahead
Speaker 8: of me in grad school. She was studying the effects
Speaker 8: of meditation on attention. She graduated with her PhD in psychology,
Speaker 8: went to Hopkins to study psychedelics with Roland, and they
Speaker 8: got money to do a study in meditators and they
Speaker 8: were going to use music as a probe of emotional
Speaker 8: function during psychedelic experiences. And Catherine said, oh, I know
Speaker 8: a guy who can help, and so she sent me
Speaker 8: all of these emails and I okay, of course I'll
Speaker 8: go to Hopkins to study psychedelic drugs.
Speaker 1: And music can be a powerful tool to study the mind.
Speaker 8: But psychedelic drugs are even in order of magnitude, more
Speaker 8: powerful of a tool to study the mind and brain.
Speaker 1: So that's basically how I got into this.
Speaker 6: I have two observations. You might want to do ear
Speaker 6: muffs for a second.
Speaker 4: You might put your fingers in your if you can
Speaker 4: put your okay on.
Speaker 5: He prefaced by saying, not going to tell her. There's
Speaker 5: a long story, and I think I did the sixt minutes.
Speaker 5: It was a long story. The second observation I have
Speaker 5: is that he was a musician. I'm hearing I was
Speaker 5: blitzed out of my mind and I thought, this is
Speaker 5: this is not only sustain because as a musician, I
Speaker 5: can't afford this.
Speaker 4: If you look up pictures, he was a mummer. He
Speaker 4: was in the mummers. Should see that thing with the feathers.
Speaker 4: And one thing was a mummer looking. Don't be embarrassed.
Speaker 4: Don't be embarrassed.
Speaker 6: You're an ex mummer.
Speaker 4: Say you're a proud mummer.
Speaker 6: I thought, that's it. You're a mummer for life.
Speaker 1: What's the mummer? Always a mummer? Pretty much? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just haven't been on Broad Street in a long time.
Speaker 4: Well, you know what my vision as a kid is
Speaker 4: watching mummers fully outfitted, peeing on walls down downtown because
Speaker 4: there's no bathing to go to, right right? You know
Speaker 4: that As a Philadelphia guy.
Speaker 1: I'm not confirming denying that.
Speaker 4: And by the way, before we go, do you ever
Speaker 4: seen that makes you go really matter? You know?
Speaker 8: The first, really no, really was when we give people
Speaker 8: these macrodoses, it's psilocyb, and in our laboratory or in
Speaker 8: a clinical setting, this is really like a one shot
Speaker 8: deal for some people. Our recent study we published a
Speaker 8: couple of years ago, showed that after two doses of psilocybin,
Speaker 8: over fifty percent of people who were in the study
Speaker 8: were in remission from.
Speaker 1: Depression for at least a year.
Speaker 9: Act Really, that's pretty yeah, And that's why the people
Speaker 9: that I do know who are using it, it's all
Speaker 9: for to as a as a counter depressive.
Speaker 4: And you know what's amazing, I'm looking I pulled this
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, the depression rates jumped from eight point
Speaker 4: five percent before the pandemic to one and three adults
Speaker 4: almost twenty some point eight, almost one third. That's how depressed,
Speaker 4: how severe depression is in today's and also diagnosing depressions
Speaker 4: different and acknowledging depressions is different, but still nonetheless, before
Speaker 4: we go, Laurie wants to do ayahuasca, she really wants
Speaker 4: to do me.
Speaker 8: Let me take this moment to give a selfless disclaimer here.
Speaker 8: Nobody should be going off and doing this on your
Speaker 8: thank you. These are incredibly powerful drugs that have an
Speaker 8: incredibly powerful effect.
Speaker 1: On the mind.
Speaker 8: And unless you're getting the proper support and proper care,
Speaker 8: and unless you've had the proper screening to enter into
Speaker 8: the high dose psychedelic experiences, you could be putting yourself
Speaker 8: at great risk.
Speaker 1: You know, these drugs can be incredibly safe under the
Speaker 1: right circumstances.
Speaker 8: One of the problems with doing ayahuasca out of an
Speaker 8: ayahuascar retreat is you have no idea who's giving it
Speaker 8: to you. You don't know where they got their vines
Speaker 8: or their urbs or whatever.
Speaker 1: And you have no idea how qualified they.
Speaker 8: Are to provide you psychological care, psychiatric care, or medical care.
Speaker 6: Do you have reason to hope that there is something here?
Speaker 5: Do you feel like you might be on a path
Speaker 5: to something that is therapeutic down the road.
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 8: Absolutely, And that's what everybody's really most excited about. Yeah,
Speaker 8: that's why there are so many investors in startup companies
Speaker 8: popping up for the macro dose psychedelic therapies. And there
Speaker 8: are a lot of hurdles to surmount, but we do
Speaker 8: have a lot of hope that we've hit on something
Speaker 8: that could really end up helping an awful lot of people.
Speaker 4: And let me tell you something. We're doing the research here. Sixties,
Speaker 4: everybody was getting stoned. Everybody was doing psychedelics. Sixties. Whenever
Speaker 4: you were your stone, they came up with pop rocks
Speaker 4: at your sketch, child car seats, soft contact lenses, microwave
Speaker 4: offfin rice, a ronny came up from stumping, mister clean, pampers,
Speaker 4: head and shoulders, apple jacks, buffalo wings, etcetera. Pizza rolls,
Speaker 4: pop tarts.
Speaker 5: They came up with apple jacks.
Speaker 6: Was dropping massive dose.
Speaker 10: I'm not saying I'm just a conflating mass or era
Speaker 10: of psych era with the people who created these product
Speaker 10: that you cannot say that anybody who stood behind those
Speaker 10: things saying in that dropping as.
Speaker 4: The error was was an acid era.
Speaker 6: You came from that era.
Speaker 4: You know what else they did? Didn't have one before
Speaker 4: they came up with nine one sixties. They got yell, hell,
Speaker 4: my husband has dying. That's what they had and then
Speaker 4: you died, right.
Speaker 5: And by the way, that we've probably got a quicker response.
Speaker 4: Than thank you, lovely lovely having you here. Thank you,
Speaker 4: And also check out doctor Pretrict Barrett. Go to YouTube.
Speaker 4: You do stuff on music and the effect of music.
Speaker 4: That's really and you can see the love you have
Speaker 4: for music and for your research. It's pretty impressive. So
Speaker 4: which is why we wanted you on. So thank you,
Speaker 4: you're you're you're a good dude, and thanks you for
Speaker 4: the research and thanks for clearing us up a bit.
Speaker 1: Thanks again for your interest in covering kind of understanding.
Speaker 4: Make us the first call, will you please when you
Speaker 4: when you get to the right dose there, we're a mess. Mess,
Speaker 4: we are a mess. We need to make us the group.
Speaker 1: By the way, you know what hardbody's going on right now.
Speaker 6: I mean I'm flying to Baltimore.
Speaker 4: You know what really really must be There must be
Speaker 4: studies where they do the blind studies and you either
Speaker 4: get the placibro where a guy's been in like fourteen
Speaker 4: studies and he always gets a frigging I'm always looks
Speaker 4: like j like, really I can't I can'cer, I can't
Speaker 4: place I got, says the guy.
Speaker 5: Next time you're in the wrong line, if you want
Speaker 5: the real thing, because I'm always.
Speaker 11: Thank you, I can't please really really, oh man, you
Speaker 11: earn your adjustment that you take care of yourself.
Speaker 1: First.
Speaker 4: Laurie's here, So producer Laurie.
Speaker 6: So, were you convinced at all they're still going to go?
Speaker 4: Still do it?
Speaker 7: I think that the resort I was going to go to.
Speaker 4: In Costa Rica teams coming down the walls.
Speaker 7: Now, I think they they have they're controlling it. I
Speaker 7: think they're it's safe.
Speaker 4: Can I tell you it's not in this country. It's
Speaker 4: not if you die. If you die, you know what
Speaker 4: they do to you. They row you down a hill
Speaker 4: because nobody brought what laws bide that they have to really.
Speaker 5: Ask you that what do you are you doing it
Speaker 5: for and you don't have to share the reason, but
Speaker 5: is it.
Speaker 6: A specific reason?
Speaker 4: I just I'd like to have that.
Speaker 7: Experience very specif I am an artist and I feel
Speaker 7: that creatively I'm kind of blocked right now, and I
Speaker 7: think maybe doing that would kind of unblock me.
Speaker 4: And if it doesn't, well, then how about a lot
Speaker 4: of other stuff that can unblock you.
Speaker 6: I just feel I just realized.
Speaker 4: Right so you feel it will unblock you.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm a good artist, but I feel I need
Speaker 7: to get to the next level.
Speaker 6: And I feel like.
Speaker 5: There's hoping that some hallucinogenic vision will stay with you
Speaker 5: and you find your breath, you'll see a color you've
Speaker 5: never seen or a pattern you've never realized.
Speaker 7: After of course, four days of throwing up, I just
Speaker 7: feel like I'm stiff, and I feel that if I
Speaker 7: do that it will unlock be more fluid.
Speaker 4: And because we love you, we support you in that.
Speaker 4: Could you just have a replacement lined please, someone who's
Speaker 4: not blocked.
Speaker 6: By the way, where is this resort in Coasta? I'm
Speaker 6: Bob your I think his name is Bob to God?
Speaker 6: Would you have you had Peter? Have you ever done
Speaker 6: a hallucinogen.
Speaker 4: I did a listener gin in the sixties and late sixties,
Speaker 4: early seventies. Yeah, didn't I really have a weird system.
Speaker 4: I can drink a lot, it doesn't hit me. I
Speaker 4: can smoke a lot. It didn't do much for me.
Speaker 4: I was pissed off because everybod's going on.
Speaker 6: You wanted to have the experience.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I knew Timothy Larry, for God's sake, So
Speaker 4: what do you what are you doing for?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 5: I don't have clinical depression, but everybody gets depressed. What
Speaker 5: do you do when you're depressed? You don't run off
Speaker 5: in vomit in Costa Rica?
Speaker 7: Do you?
Speaker 6: Why?
Speaker 4: What I try is I bring other people down at
Speaker 4: my level and we can hang. You know that. That's
Speaker 4: what I do. You go to other people, right, Lark
Speaker 4: I get. I call her at night and I get
Speaker 4: and I go. Now we're on the hare there, same level.
Speaker 4: What do I do with you? Same thing? Yeah, you're
Speaker 4: much happier than I am.
Speaker 5: My parents didn't sanction depression. You were not allowed my parents,
Speaker 5: So I'm sure when I know my parents went through
Speaker 5: horrible times and horrible things, and they didn't really sanction depression.
Speaker 5: My Dad was a hey, snap out of it. And
Speaker 5: speaking of depression, we had Google tim.
Speaker 6: On what I like today?
Speaker 4: David, what is that thing I have? Just saying? They say, well,
Speaker 4: you have depressure. We all have the pressure. Who's not depressed?
Speaker 6: I'm not depressed?
Speaker 4: Well, then what do you go to an ayahuasca thing for?
Speaker 6: For creativity? At stuff?
Speaker 1: Or just draw?
Speaker 4: Pay something? Get somebody, get her a brush, yeah, some paints.
Speaker 4: She's really gonna look at her.
Speaker 5: What she has to do is spin around until she
Speaker 5: throws up. You don't have to go anywhere to spin around.
Speaker 4: Until you throw up and then go pay by the way.
Speaker 4: By the way, we'll pretend you were there. We'll hit
Speaker 4: you over the head with the bottle, take all your money,
Speaker 4: make you throw up, and then say be creative. That's
Speaker 4: what would have happened there without minus the plane flight. Okay,
Speaker 4: you give us a cash for the plane flight. So, David,
Speaker 4: what do you think I wanted to let everybody know
Speaker 4: where i AWA is legal? Oh, here we go, and
Speaker 4: where's it legal?
Speaker 12: Brazil, Costa Rica, Mexico, Peru, and drum roll, please l
Speaker 12: the United States everywhere in the United States for religious purposes.
Speaker 4: Lauri lauriait what and what religion would.
Speaker 6: You speak of Florida.
Speaker 13: I did some research and I called the Soul Quest
Speaker 13: Ayahuasca Church of Mother Earth, which is located in Orlando.
Speaker 4: Happiest I heard that plenty of parking talking and they
Speaker 4: serve approach. You're in. You don't have to go anywhere.
Speaker 6: Can you imagine the cab.
Speaker 4: So and what about the liability? So what happens if something?
Speaker 4: They have insurance?
Speaker 13: Well, I did do a lot of research into several
Speaker 13: different resorts and destinations that do the ayahuasca, and many
Speaker 13: of them suggest getting travelers insurance.
Speaker 4: You know, like mister Milman, I would like travel church.
Speaker 4: Iahwas ceremony.
Speaker 14: Fortunately, I actually called a mature traveler insurance provider instead
Speaker 14: two years of experience and working from several mature providers.
Speaker 6: Would it be covered? When she stopped laughing, she's.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, Well how about that, man, Well maybe
Speaker 4: I'll call another.
Speaker 6: No not covered.
Speaker 13: Now.
Speaker 6: Now, listen, if you're out there and you have a
Speaker 6: really no, really keep it with yourself.
Speaker 4: We got enough trouble with ours. Yes, at the end
Speaker 4: of this thing, when we take a bye, now, there'll
Speaker 4: be a thing and a we'll tell your work.
Speaker 6: Really it makes you go, oh my god, really no, really,
Speaker 6: it's really.
Speaker 4: No, really, oh my god. Really it's a different podcast.
Speaker 4: You said, what the huh?
Speaker 6: Really we couldn't.
Speaker 4: Get No, okay, couldn't get it. And Jason, what will
Speaker 4: we do for if we use it? What will we do?
Speaker 6: What will we use?
Speaker 4: We'll use it, will use.
Speaker 6: What they get? I have no idea.
Speaker 4: No, you know what, we'll get them.
Speaker 6: Why can't people just be generous?
Speaker 4: Why can't they just me maybe you know, you know,
Speaker 4: giving give it to us for nothing? Why am I begging?
Speaker 6: Why am I?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 4: We'll send your.
Speaker 5: Mum all right, We'll send them a mug and we're
Speaker 5: just playing the postage on then that's coming out of
Speaker 5: your side, Peter, this.
Speaker 6: Has been a delight. I'm going to go take a
Speaker 6: tab of something.
Speaker 4: I may just drink a tab.
Speaker 5: Maybe maybe I can find a tab.
Speaker 4: I want to get. We'll see you next time, maybe
Speaker 4: I don't know, google home and see you later. Laurie.
Speaker 4: Good luck with the with the with the art and
Speaker 4: getting on. Get awake from the guys in the other
Speaker 4: room who never get mentioned. You're not mentioning we don't
Speaker 4: have no time now?
Speaker 12: Really, No Really is available on the iHeart Radio app,
Speaker 12: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 8: YE