WEBVTT - Microdosing Psychedelics, Ayahuasca Resorts + Placebo City 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:03.400 Hello. 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.680 I'm producer David Guggenheim, and this may be one of 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:12.560 the more controversial episodes of Really No Really. Millions of 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:18.200 people are microdosing, taking small amounts of psychedelic mushrooms, LSD 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:24.240 and other hallucinogenic substances, all without any supervision by a physician. 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.480 Many claim it reduces anxiety and depression, and enhances mood 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:35.200 and boosts creativity and productivity. But are these claims purely 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.680 anecdotal or is there robust scientific evidence to support them. 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.600 Jason and Peter were determined to find out my. 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:56.760 Mom now really, so Jay, really really No one has 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:57.319 stopped us. 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.520 Yet, And this one is about microdosing and the really 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:02.960 not really here is my grandparents are doing it, my 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.559 cousin's doing everybody's doing it. What's the science? 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:10.160 It's like, Now, this is a thing where I agree 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.520 with you you say my mother's doing I know anecdotally 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:16.760 a dozen people that are doing this and that we're 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.880 doing it to speak to conditions and problems they were having, 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.560 and across the board, with one exception, they have all 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.520 reported having a positive refect. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:28.960 That's the deal. It's all. It's a lot of anecdotal 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:30.880 and I know, I have a feeling on this episode. 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.720 When I did it, I you know, I was singing 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:35.080 Sweet Sue under a stairwell. 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.000 But other than that, I felt nothing. 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:38.840 He got he took one tab of acid. I had 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:43.080 to watch the entire show of hair with him naked 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.880 in his bedroom, went from beginning to end. You chose 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.120 to do and odd that you would do? 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.960 He chose to So how dare you? How dare you? 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:53.080 So? 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.640 I think we'll get pushedback because a lot of people assume, oh, oh, 0:01:57.680 --> 0:01:59.800 you're gonna throw you know, a wet blanket on this, 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.440 But it works. Every works. It's anecdotal. So I figured, 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.240 let's find out somebody who's actually doing the research. There's 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.679 not a lot of places doing the research. Research absolutely, 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:10.600 and again I'm not for it. I'm not against it. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:12.639 I don't have any kind of bias. It's just a 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:16.160 really really is. Everybody's acting like it's a done deal. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.600 So we got on doctor Frederick Barrett. He works at 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.760 john Hopkins and it's the School of Medicine Center. 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:25.120 John's Johns Hopkins where I think you said, John Hopkins, 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:26.200 and everybody the. 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.280 Way is there a number Johns? It? When it's Johns Hopkins. 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:31.040 Does that mean there were a couple of John's. 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.080 There was one person whose last name was John Johns. 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:35.680 And some people get very very. 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:37.960 Bent out of shape about this. Jason, you're you're correct, 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:38.960 and Peter, you're not sorry. 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:45.960 You know what we got. J You're correct. Doctor, We 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:48.560 gotta go somebody the door. So we read another expert 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.400 working in England, Jason, So doctor Barrett. It's the Center 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:58.000 for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research. So I'm guessing that in 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.680 your deal life, when people know what you do, are 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:05.000 they skeptical? Is it like, well, why wait, it works already. 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.280 I'm sure you're family members to tell you anecdotally, your 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:10.320 cousin Leonard is so much better. What do you mean 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:11.480 you're telling me it doesn't work? 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:13.680 So how is that? In fact? 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.280 What is the nature of what you're studying? And we 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:18.320 don't want to, you know, put the card before the horse. 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.400 What are you learning? What is their goal of the study? 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.639 We have multiple studies underway at the Center for psychodol 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:26.640 Conconscious Research. 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.640 And I've been doing this now for about ten years. 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.280 And I have to say that when I started doing 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.000 this ten years ago, I told my mother what I 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:34.880 was doing and She said, wait a minute, isn't that 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.120 like acid? Does that stuff make you jump out of windows? 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:38.320 And I said, well, my mom, it's. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:38.640 Not like that. 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.440 But you know, we don't have windows in our session rooms. 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.720 But the point, but. 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:50.400 It's that these drugs are such powerful modulators of consciousness. 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.160 When they were first studied in the fifties and sixties, 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.520 there were thousands of studies going on in the United 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.360 States and around the world, some that showed some interesting 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.920 results for LSD to treat depression, to treat various forms 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:04.839 of substance, used to sort of to treat chronic pain, 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:06.960 or cancer related pain, all sorts of things. And with 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:08.880 the Controlled Substances Act, all of this came to a 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.520 screeching halt. But it was my mentor, Roland Griffiths, who 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.640 was the founding director of the Center, who had one 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.400 of the first modern studies with psilocybin that kind of 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:20.800 broke this all back open and we began to think, well, 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.480 these are incredibly powerful drugs. They need to be administered 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:28.720 under carefully controlled settings with properly screened individuals, But once 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.640 you get past those things, they seem to be incredibly safe. 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.279 And who can we help with this and it turns 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:38.279 out that the data so far suggests that macro doses, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:44.760 like large heroic doses of psychedelic drugs, may have therapeutic 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.680 effects and patients with depression, patients who are smokers who 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.000 can't quit, people who are drinking alcohol who can't quit, 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.080 and possibly other indications. 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.680 So what is a macrodose By the way you said 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:55.279 it again. 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.599 Macrodose is a large dose. It's a psychoactive dose. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:59.560 It's a those that makes you, you know for better words, 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.000 feel like you're tripping. And the doses that we're finding 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:03.359 to be therapeutic are doses. 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.440 They're very strong, very strong trips, if you will. 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.080 But all of the data that's been published to date, 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.040 except for the most recent study that was just published 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:15.080 from a multi center trial about over two hundred people 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:19.120 were treated and they found that, wow, there's evidence for 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.720 an enduring effect of a single high dose of psilocybin. 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.360 But the question now is, well, how much can we 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.000 learn about the safety parameters here? We have to take 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.480 most of the studies, which are small pilot or proof 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.320 of concept studies, and expand them to two more rigorous 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.400 clinical trials. So that's what we're doing at Hopkins, and 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:38.680 that's what's being done at a number of other research 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.920 institutes around the world. But I guess the question here 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.720 is that's all good, but what about this microdosing. 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:48.360 Right, Yeah, as of today, if you had to give 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.440 a verdict on microro saying, my understanding is this, you 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.120 can't even test it on depressed people yet, because getting 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.920 somebody off their meds, testing it, then putting them back 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.560 on their mentioned hoping the receptors will will uptake the 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:02.680 mens the same way. That's a big liability. You got 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:03.400 to test the first on. 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.880 Healthy people, right, It is a liability. But that's what 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.120 we're doing right now in our studies of depression. And 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:12.280 there are plenty of people in the world who are 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.760 taking medication and it's not working or it's not working 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:16.440 as well as it should. And there are a lot 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.640 of people in the world for whom they tried multiple medications, 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.599 they may have even tried like electric convulsive therapy ECT. 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.400 When you get to that point, it usually works, but 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:26.520 it's a pretty big hammer and it has a lot 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.359 of risks. So there are a lot of people in 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:29.960 the world that don't want to go that far and 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:31.520 just simply haven't found a solution. 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:33.520 So there are people out there to study. 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:35.560 But yes, with all of these things, the first thing 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:37.320 to do is study them in healthy people first to 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:38.640 make sure you understand. 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.839 The risks and how far a long is that was microdosing. 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:46.920 There are no clinical trials available in therapeutications. There are 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.920 a small number of clinical trials that have been conducted 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.120 in healthy people. But here's where it gets a little 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.080 complicated because the prescription for microdosing, if you will, and 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:58.160 I'm not giving out medical advice right now, but when 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.000 people microdose, what they say they do is they take 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.240 a small dose of a psychedelic drug every few days 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:06.279 for like a few weeks or a few months, right, 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.200 And the idea is that over time, you take this 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.600 micro doose, the small dose. And what people say when 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.840 they say microdose, what they mean can be different things. 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.400 Some people, when they say microdose, they mean a dose 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.720 that's small enough that I can't even detect that it's 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:22.560 in me or that it's having an effect. And other 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:24.960 people say microdose is well, you know, I can feel 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.640 a little tingling, my vision is a little changed, but it's. 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:29.320 Not like a full on trip. 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.760 It's not an overwhelming experience, and just there you can 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:34.960 get caught up in the weeds of well, which one's right, 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:36.520 which one is going to work, which one's going to 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:40.040 work for what indication or what stillness, And we don't know. 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:41.880 But the line share of studies. 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:43.800 That have been conducted and healthy people have not been 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.120 conducted on a long term course of microdosing. They've been 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:52.120 conducted on a single micro dose and there's so you 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.320 can see one of the problems here is we haven't 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:56.560 really studied microdosing yet the way people. 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:57.600 Are microdosing out in the world. 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.600 But out of the studies that have been conducted in 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.080 a laboratory setting, there's pretty much nothing to say there 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.560 are no effects. There was one study that was published 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.960 in older healthy adults that had really clever marketing. They said, listen, hey, wow, 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.400 we've administered a microdose to all of these people and 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.560 we saw no signal for risks. 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:17.320 So that's great. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:18.920 But the problem is they didn't see a signal for 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:20.760 anything at all. So how can you have a risk 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:21.320 for it for some. 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:24.160 Not to be pedestrian. 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.480 Okay, but if you're in the job of doing a 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.560 clinical study and you realize on a healthy person, one 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:37.000 experience wields no data whatsoever other than ineffectual. Why don't 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.240 you immediately go well, then let's do a more ongoing study. 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.560 Is there are you being prevented from that? Is the 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.839 funding not there for that? Why not do a more 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:45.640 profound study. 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:47.440 It's the next step. 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.240 I think a lot of people thought this is a 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.240 reasonable first step. And since that yielded nothing, let's go further. 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:55.640 And I know there are individuals and labs who are 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:57.840 planning these more comprehensive studies. 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.240 We just haven't gotten there yet. We're still really early. 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.440 For God's pressure on him. 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:06.400 He's got all these fancy titles. 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.560 He works Johns Hopkins and the living is up. 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.320 He's not sitting on his hands. He's doing the studies. 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:16.760 The most important thing here is the placebo effect is 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:18.679 what people are talking about right now, because there has 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:20.880 been no research that it works. The other thing I'm 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.400 curious about because the decent said funding so pharmaceutical companies. 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.520 I know that Silicon Valley's jumping through hoops to fund 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:29.479 this stuff to be the next company to be the 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:34.599 psilocybin masters. But they like stuff it's long term that 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.200 doesn't fix people right away. If you take a couple 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:38.840 of doses of this and they find not you're better 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.360 all of a sudden, one of the companies And I'm 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.200 not picking up whoever the company know, I'm just simping. 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:46.240 I don't know. 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:48.200 Take out the name of any photo. 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:52.920 The farmer company, the farmer company, the farmers. 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.560 In the final project. Don't thank you. 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.000 I said it once. Jason now said it eleven times. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.000 I didn't say seven times. 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.800 The doctor said, you are such a problem, why do 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.839 we have you on? So so, if they are looking 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.000 for long term stuff, I had a doctor on once, 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.040 you said if polio happened today, they wouldn't find a cure. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.000 They would do like design or iron lungs and the 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.760 hook up to your iPad. Is that true that the 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.559 pharmaceutical companies are not as interested because it may be 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.040 one dose or two dose and you're better. 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.640 I could imagine that's part of their calculus. Another problem 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.000 is that you can't patent psilocybin. It's a naturally occurring compound. 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:34.720 Right. 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.360 There are a lot of companies that are now trying 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.520 to come up with analogues of known psychedelic drugs, so 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.760 new chemicals that are closely related slightly different, and then 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:45.319 you'll pull out the gimmicks so well, this one is 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.319 a little faster acting, or this one does as much 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:48.720 or whatever. 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:49.920 Maximum strengths. 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:53.600 Telling Jerry strength. 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:55.960 There's a great Jerry Seinfeld with tea, and where he goes, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.840 what's the you know, we're crazy about strength. 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.560 First three we had strength, it was not good enough. 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.800 Then we needed extra strength, and then I think his 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.160 routine goes and then we needed maximum strength, and they go, well. 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:06.360 What's that? 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.280 They go, We'll figure out what will kill me and 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:09.439 back it off just a. 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:19.520 Little bit because here here's the other part of this. 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:21.880 So my cousin Liner says, I'm doing this. I go, 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.280 how did you figure how many times a week to 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.160 do it? Was that ran? How do you know what 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.600 you're buying, who you're buying it from, how are they 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.480 how are they vetting it? And these ayahuasca ceremonies, which, 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.120 by the way, producer law is going to come in 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.320 no matter what you say or how dangerous it does, 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:36.920 it is not going to cut it. She'll do it. 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:40.679 She'll go to another country, have some shaman give her 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:42.760 something that's going to make her throw up, pass out, 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:44.600 and she'll say it was great. It was great because 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.560 because a matter of fact, how do you know what 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.240 you're buying and how do you know how many times 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:48.600 to do it? 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.960 Well, that's that's exactly. That's that's one of the many 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:52.760 problems here. 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.720 And there are lots of analogues of psychedelic drugs, like 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.360 things that are sold as LSD but they aren't LSD 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:02.600 l U the psilocybin. For the right person who doesn't 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:06.480 have other contraindications, it's it's rather physiologically safe. But some 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.600 of these other compounds that are synthesized to mimic the 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.360 drugs are not safe at all, and they have led 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.160 to deaths. This is a serious problem that if you 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.240 don't know what compounds and what drugs are ingesting, you 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.679 could be putting yourself in a lot more risk than 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:21.160 you think. 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:21.720 You hear. 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.959 But I may also ask, if I may protect doctor Barrett, 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.240 why are you asking him? You're asking him basically, where 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:29.679 would I get this stuff on the street and how 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:31.079 do I know it's pure? Are you trying to ask 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.920 him a question like that? He's getting it from reliable, 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:35.280 sanctioned source. 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.920 So they're making treating him like he's going to an 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.360 alley with it's like showing me the money, show me 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:42.440 the I mean, you know, if I can get the infro, 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.640 why not get there? But is it like Santa's Labs 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:46.679 they're cooking up batches right now on your lab. 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.360 Or what there are there are pharmaceutical companies who are 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.880 producing uh, you know, top quality. What the FP says 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:58.640 is it meets GMP standards Good Manufacturing Practice of standards, 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:02.200 so they're a high standard parmaceutical grade drugs. And and 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.400 there are companies who are producing psilocybin for research use 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.600 at these standards. But yeah, one of the risks for 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.079 microdosing is that you don't know exactly what you're getting. 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.800 Another is that people don't really know there's no real 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.839 data on what is the best prescription if you take 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:18.800 a dose that you can't detect. And here's another problem 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.600 that I have with this is that if you're saying 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:22.320 that you're taking a dose that you can't detect, but 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.199 it's doing something good for you, well then you can 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:29.520 detect it, right, So which is but it's really you know, 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:34.920 I don't want to discount or discredit or undermine someone's 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.320 lived experience. If someone has a live experience with this 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.400 and they thought, they felt it was helpful for them. 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.440 That's great, but we have to be careful about what 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.360 we're attributing to what. And one of the best microdosing 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:47.439 studies that's been conducted to date is one out of 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.199 Imperial College London where they came up with a really 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.240 clever way of instructing people who were going to go 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:56.280 ahead and do this anyway to self blind. So they 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.719 gave people instructions put put them in certain envelopes, and 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:01.360 then the envelopes and then you don't. 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.000 Know what you're getting in any particular day. 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.000 And so people blinded themselves and they went through a 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.600 course of uh, you know, one course of treatment, and 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:10.720 then they took a break and took another course of treatment, 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.520 and then afterwards broke the blind and they figured out 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:14.120 which was the. 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:15.000 Active and which was not. 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.960 And it turns out people had a better response to 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.600 their placebo condition than they did to their active drug. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.960 Condition, which is why I've said you and I we're 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:24.320 going to open if you want. 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:25.840 They only makes placebo. 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:32.320 Yeah, because ripped all the function right heart disease, and yeah, 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.640 take the placebo. It's much cheaper than the drug you're taking. 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:39.560 Forget it. 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:41.440 Placebo city Absolutely there. 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.320 There was a drug that was prescribed many decades ago 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.680 called Obacalp, and doctors would actually prescribe to the placebo 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:48.560 spelled backwards. 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:50.720 Doctors would actually describe. 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.840 Oba coal for certain things that they thought were psychosomatic 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.160 or some other kind of was a sugar pill. 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:58.720 Yeah, I think my mother was on that for thirty 0:14:58.720 --> 0:14:59.240 two years. 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.280 Oh but obrake good for her? 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:02.560 Who knew that? Did you know that? 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:02.760 Law? 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.520 Or Laurie? Go through an obercal clinic and take that good? 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.080 You got to come up with maximum strength Obercal's. 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:12.960 We're in doctor. I don't know what they're paying you there, 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.280 but we can pony up some money down. Can you 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:22.880 imagine onad the head of Obercal collo testing. Oh my god, wow, obercalc. 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.160 Calp colp, don't miss me. Don't don't send people to 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:26.880 the wrong product. 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.800 If you can't afford if you can't afford the medicine, 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.640 and you can't afford the generic, we've got the placebo 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:34.720 and it works better than both. 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:39.560 Oh my god, I'm sure I can answer this question myself. 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.080 Has anyone in the microdesting studies ever had a bad 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:47.160 reaction to it that even I'm aware of No. Okay, 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.080 so it doesn't it doesn't do any intrinsic harm at 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:51.520 least in this in these studies. 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.040 Well maybe so here's here's here's Another dimension of this 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.160 to consider is that in the studies that have been 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.240 conducted in the laboratory, like I said, you know, they've 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.440 administered one or there was one study that was very 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.600 recently administered like up to a week or two of microdoses. 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.160 But that still doesn't that still doesn't fit the prescription 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.360 that the people are using out in the world. But 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.680 there is a theoretical risk here. There are dozens and 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:15.880 dozens of receptors. 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:17.200 All over your body and your brain and your spinal 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:17.760 cordo one. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.320 Hundreds or more receptors, and one of the receptors that 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.960 psilocybin specifically binds to and is active at is called 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.040 the serotonin to B receptor. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.480 The serotonin receptors are not only in your brain. 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.200 There are actually a lot of them are expressed in 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.280 your cardiovascular system. And there are a number of drugs 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.760 that have been pulled from the market for other reasons 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.320 in other circumstances that bound to this and activated this 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.920 two B receptor on heart muscles, and caused cardiac problems 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:47.320 for it there before. So it's possible that taking a 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.240 microdose of a dry and it's not been proven. 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:50.560 It's only a theoretical risk. 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:54.160 But again enough studies haven't been conducted that if you're 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.680 taking a microdose of a psychedelic over time, then it 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:57.440 may put you at. 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:58.960 Risk for some of these cardiac problems. 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.080 Is there also not to be receptor? 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:02.120 Not to be? 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:04.439 I know somebody was going to take it. 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.720 Somebody was going to take it, and it's the guy 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.879 who has never seen a Shakespeare play decided to go 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:11.520 for that or not. 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:13.959 So I'm curious, Jason, and we're talking about this, and 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.600 people go into a profession a lot of times influenced 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:18.600 by their parents. Did your parents follow a fish around 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:20.080 and go to eighty two concerts or something? Is this 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.240 how you got into the No? 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.960 No, In fact, that's a very interesting question. 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:25.320 No. 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.280 No, My father was a contractor and my mother is 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:32.560 an artist. And I got into all of this almost 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:33.240 by accident. 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.880 I tell people, I went to Temple University in Philadelphia 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.560 for undergrad and I was a music education major, and. 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.520 That's where I went Temple. I first couldn't get in 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:42.920 anywhere else you went because you had good grades. 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.720 Okay, temple owls are everywhere, But basically, you know, I 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:47.879 had a dark night of the soul with music teaching, 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:49.040 and I ended. 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:50.360 Up getting really into psychology. 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.879 I ended up working at a schizophrenic research lab at 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:54.320 U Penn and found. 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:54.800 A love for the brain. 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.720 And I learned that, you know, I was playing music 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.720 to explore emotions and understand the motions of myself and 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:01.800