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Speaker 1: Hi, This is newt Twenty twenty is going to be

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Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime.

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Speaker 1: Sign up today at Newtcenter Circle dot com slash podcast

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Speaker 1: and use the Code podcast Hurry this Offtway Spires February fourteenth.

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Speaker 1: In the last episode of newts World, we explored what

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Speaker 1: five G technology is and the promising future of connectivity

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Speaker 1: and improvements that we bring to all of our lives.

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Speaker 1: On this episode, we're looking more closely at some of

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Speaker 1: the concerns around five G technology. I did a Facebook

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Speaker 1: live interview about five G two weeks ago, and we

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Speaker 1: heard from many of you who are concerned about the

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Speaker 1: health effects five G may pose. Some of you also

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Speaker 1: expressed concern about the collection of big data and privacy.

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Speaker 1: This episode will address some of those questions and cover

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Speaker 1: the global race to develop and deploy five G and

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Speaker 1: the national security implications that loom over US if the

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Speaker 1: United States both the government and the private sector do

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Speaker 1: not act quickly with clear public policy direction and significant investment.

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Speaker 1: Will also look at the main Chinese companies who are

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Speaker 1: investing billions in five G, Huawei and Zte, and pleased

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Speaker 1: to welcome with my guest, Brigadier General Robert Spaulding, former

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Speaker 1: Senior Director for Strategic Planning at the National Security Council.

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Speaker 1: General Spaulding is really an honor to have you on

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Speaker 1: newts World today for this conversation. We had a lot

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Speaker 1: of people that were more worried about personal security than

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Speaker 1: national security, and specifically about health concerns. We had a

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Speaker 1: lot of different people who wrote us and asked what

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Speaker 1: are the potential health risks from five G, some of

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Speaker 1: them being concerned about equipment being set up as a

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Speaker 1: mesh network over the cities. Some of about the old

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Speaker 1: nature of the new small cell towers. When you look

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Speaker 1: at all this, if you run across anything, it leads

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Speaker 1: you to be concerned on a health side from the

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Speaker 1: implementation of five G. Yeah, so the health concerns are

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Speaker 1: primarily related to the high band, which is a millimeter

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Speaker 1: wave band, which if you look at the entire five

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Speaker 1: G implementation, there's three bands. There's a low band, a

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Speaker 1: mid band, and a high band. The low band and

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Speaker 1: midband are currently coincident with other cellular technologies like four G.

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Speaker 1: The only issue really is with high band, and really

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Speaker 1: it's an unknown issue at this point. There's some that

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Speaker 1: speculate that it could cause some heating of the skin

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Speaker 1: surface and then be potentially carcinogenic, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: the testing has definitely proved out one way or the other.

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Speaker 1: I will say that the way that they're implementing five

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Speaker 1: G with beam forming will tend to not expose the

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Speaker 1: body to direct impact of the signal because the idea

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Speaker 1: is to keep line of sight between the tower and

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Speaker 1: the device itself. So rather than other cellular equipment which

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Speaker 1: currently broadcasts in a wide area, this would be more

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Speaker 1: focused like a pencil beam. So I think what you'll

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Speaker 1: see is the phones will be designed so that there's

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Speaker 1: shielding of the human body if it's needed, but primarily

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Speaker 1: since millimeter way won't go through the human body, they're

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Speaker 1: designing the equipment to get around exposing the human body

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Speaker 1: to the signal. The other thing to note is that

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Speaker 1: this is a technology that's used to scan your body

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Speaker 1: when you go through the airport, So it's not like

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Speaker 1: these people aren't being essentially exposed to this type of frequencies.

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Speaker 1: They're being exposed when they fly somewhere. So I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that there was studies done before DHS implemented that technology,

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Speaker 1: and I think I remember back then there was also

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Speaker 1: this fear that you could potentially cause cancer. But the

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Speaker 1: truth is that the requisite federal agency has to ensure

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Speaker 1: that it meets the defined health problems that actually come

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Speaker 1: from research, and I haven't seen any research that actually

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Speaker 1: supports that. The other place where people worry about security

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Speaker 1: is the whole question about big data and privacy. We

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Speaker 1: had some very interesting conversations about the notion that you're

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Speaker 1: going to be on the edge of having the kind

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Speaker 1: of big data that can anticipate what you want because

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Speaker 1: it knows you so well that it will sort of say, gee,

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Speaker 1: you know, would you like to pick up some carrots

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Speaker 1: this afternoon while you're at the store. And some people

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Speaker 1: feel they're not sure they want some external system knowing

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Speaker 1: that much about them. But how do you react to

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Speaker 1: the whole question about big data and privacy concerns. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's fine when Amazon is trying to sell you things

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Speaker 1: that you need, but it's not fine when a totalitaring

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Speaker 1: regime is using it to analyze who they should target,

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Speaker 1: and then take the people that you know and that

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Speaker 1: listen to you as an influential person in their lives,

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Speaker 1: and then using advanced data analysis artificial intelligence in this area,

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Speaker 1: the Russians have shown the ability to do this, the

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Speaker 1: Chinese have as well, and then use your network to

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Speaker 1: begin to influence the people that you know in a

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Speaker 1: way that you never intended. And that's a real challenge

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Speaker 1: because over time, what you'll see is a use of

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Speaker 1: these social media networks to create artifacts in our society

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Speaker 1: that are really designed to break down our society and

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Speaker 1: get people to no longer believe in the government or

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Speaker 1: in how the society itself should operate. You have to

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Speaker 1: worry about this kind of use of data and the

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Speaker 1: whole notion that I may not have recommended anything, but

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Speaker 1: you just got a message that suggested that I recommended it,

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Speaker 1: and it reads exactly as though it came from me. Right,

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Speaker 1: since they trust you, they would tend to believe. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: if news says this is a good idea, maybe I

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Speaker 1: should also think this way and in that way. And

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Speaker 1: then we saw this during again the twenty sixteen elections,

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Speaker 1: were beginning to put groups together that would normally never

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Speaker 1: have any affiliation, but because they'd been hijacked from their

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Speaker 1: original leaders, that they moved into areas that they actually

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Speaker 1: didn't believe and the leader didn't believe. If you take

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Speaker 1: a step back and you look at it from a

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Speaker 1: societal perspective, in a way, with the use of social media,

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Speaker 1: you can completely bypass the use of weapons and go

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Speaker 1: directly the society and create the same kind of effects

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Speaker 1: that we were able to create with weapons. When we

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Speaker 1: come back, we'll discuss the looming Chinese threat if they're

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Speaker 1: able to roll out five G worldwide. First, let me

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Speaker 1: ask us just a straightforward question that I've been very

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Speaker 1: sobered by, and I have to say I think you

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Speaker 1: were the first person when you were still at the

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Speaker 1: National Security Council. I remember being introduced to you in

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Speaker 1: a briefing you gave on just how formidable the Chinese

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Speaker 1: threat would be, and you were sort of a voice

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Speaker 1: in the wilderness at that point. I'm now working on

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Speaker 1: a book about China, and the more closely I look

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Speaker 1: at this, the more impressed I am with the scale

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Speaker 1: of their effort and the kind of methodical, patient way

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Speaker 1: they're approaching it. Can you talk with us as you

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Speaker 1: began to look at Huawei and the whole rise of

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Speaker 1: five G in China, how did you find it and

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Speaker 1: how did you come to grips with the scale of

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Speaker 1: what we're facing. Well, I remember distinctly in the fall

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Speaker 1: of twenty thirteen when I was a military fellow at

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Speaker 1: the Council on Foreign Relations, and lunch I had with

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Speaker 1: the man that had added about a billion dollars of

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Speaker 1: assets invested in China, and he had gone through the

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Speaker 1: financial crisis and come out the other side. He realized,

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Speaker 1: especially with the elevation of President she that the country

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Speaker 1: was going in a completely different directions. So he sold

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Speaker 1: all his assets and returned them to the investors, and

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Speaker 1: we had a discussion about where China was headed at

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Speaker 1: that time, and I believe that the economy was going

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Speaker 1: to stagnate, and he said it was going to continue

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Speaker 1: to grow and they were going to eventually outstrip the

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Speaker 1: United States. And over the course of the following year

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Speaker 1: he provided information and data and we had a series

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Speaker 1: of dialogues that actually ended up changing my mind. And

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Speaker 1: by this time I was at the Joint Staff and

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Speaker 1: the Pentagon, and the epiphany for me was a briefing

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Speaker 1: that he shared with me that had been produced by

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Speaker 1: a very large auditing firm in the United States, and

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Speaker 1: it essentially showed vignette after vignette of how the Chinese

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Speaker 1: had done after companies essentially put them under pressure to

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Speaker 1: acquire some piece of technology. And it was sophisticated. It

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Speaker 1: was almost a precision airstrike in terms of how they

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Speaker 1: went about it, combining cyber and financial knowledge to put

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Speaker 1: these companies under a dress in order to get technology.

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Speaker 1: And it was at that point that I realized that

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Speaker 1: I didn't understand how the world worked from a financial

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Speaker 1: and economic perspective, and the scope and scale of this

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Speaker 1: was so large and primarily hidden because most companies won't

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Speaker 1: report if they'd been hit because it either affects their

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Speaker 1: valuation or potentially legal ramifications for the company. So this

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Speaker 1: was a stealth attack that was going on quite frankly

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Speaker 1: across the country. And at that point is when I

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Speaker 1: really started to focus on understanding what China had created,

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Speaker 1: how they had done it, and what were the implications

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Speaker 1: for the United States. And so by the time you

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Speaker 1: saw me at the White House, I was five years

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Speaker 1: into that study and I had the clear view of

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Speaker 1: nearly everything that they were doing. But even today I

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Speaker 1: learned things every single day that really demonstrate how incredibly

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Speaker 1: prescient the thinking was by the Chinese leadership and how

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Speaker 1: much of a precision strategic campaign they've waged. This is

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Speaker 1: a problem that features in China with a lot of

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Speaker 1: policy because the Chinese Communist Party is so opaque in

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Speaker 1: terms of how it does things. There are orders issued

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Speaker 1: in Huawei has a demonstrated close relationship with the military

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Speaker 1: since going back to I have an article that somebody

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Speaker 1: sent me from two thousand talking about his close relationship

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Speaker 1: with the People's Liberation Army. So there are discussions that

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Speaker 1: happened that aren't reported, where essentially the government indicates in

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Speaker 1: which way they would like Huawei to go, and so

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Speaker 1: I have not seen anything that was public, but what

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Speaker 1: I have seen is kind of behind the scenes. They

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Speaker 1: were told to focus on this as early as two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven as a strategy for the country. Everybody

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Speaker 1: understands that these wireless evolutions come every ten years, so

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Speaker 1: they understood that the next one that comes, they want

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Speaker 1: to dominate it. And so whether it's called five G

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Speaker 1: or just the next generation of wireless, we want to dominate.

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Speaker 1: That's what they were making the decision about. And everybody

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Speaker 1: even before five G is thought of, so there's thoughts

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Speaker 1: about what would come beyond that, and so before it's

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Speaker 1: called six G or whatever we're going to call it,

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Speaker 1: people are thinking about what that means. I think that's

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Speaker 1: a better way of thinking about it. We understand that

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Speaker 1: this technology is going to continue to evolve. It's not

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Speaker 1: going to stop at any one number or evolution. We

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Speaker 1: were very fortunate to be guests of Samsung when they

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Speaker 1: tell Collisten me to their new smart factory, which is

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Speaker 1: a very heavily automated, very dust free, remarkable system. They

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Speaker 1: have an ability there to create five G capability better

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Speaker 1: than anybody else outside of China. They are very determined

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Speaker 1: to create the ability for their entire society to be

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Speaker 1: using five G, whether it's in healthcare, or in smart cities,

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Speaker 1: or in sports or in entertainment. I found it kind

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Speaker 1: of amazing to see the experiments they were running, the

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Speaker 1: projects they had, for example, with a drone which was

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Speaker 1: giving you basically virtual reality through five G while flying

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Speaker 1: over a sporting field. So I think that Samsung really

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Speaker 1: has made an investment in developing a different and a

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Speaker 1: more powerful future, and I think their rollout is going

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Speaker 1: to be a major event in the implementation of five G.

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Speaker 1: So along that line, the other great danger is that

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Speaker 1: the three primary equipment manufacturers outside China, or in fact,

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Speaker 1: I think investing between them about as third as much

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Speaker 1: money in research and development as Wallways. Unless there's some

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Speaker 1: pretty dramatic change, the gap is likely to get bigger

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Speaker 1: in the next five or ten years in terms of

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Speaker 1: not just price but also capability. Is that also your understanding,

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Speaker 1: General Spaulding? It is, And if you think about it

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Speaker 1: from a national security perspective, imagine if we took the

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Speaker 1: eight hundred billion dollars a year that we're spending in

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Speaker 1: defense and a cotion that was allocated to building the

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Speaker 1: really advanced networks. Now, if you look at China, they've

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Speaker 1: aligned a lot of their national strategic initiatives around the

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Speaker 1: deployment of five G. There's the Belton Road initiative, which

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Speaker 1: is linking all the nations of Eurasia in Africa and

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Speaker 1: Latin America and some in Asia now both in the

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Speaker 1: maritime on the landward side, but also with a digital

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Speaker 1: belt in the road. So you have that enormous strategic plan,

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Speaker 1: almost like the Marshall Plan. You have the twenty thirteen

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Speaker 1: plan that you mentioned, the five year Plan. You also

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Speaker 1: have China Manufacturer in twenty twenty five, and you also

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Speaker 1: have the Science and Technology a long term science and

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Speaker 1: Technology plan, the Thousand Talents Plan. All of these initiatives

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Speaker 1: essentially combine to amplify both with money resources, but also

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Speaker 1: complementary technologies and capabilities that make what China is offering

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Speaker 1: all the more powerful. It's not just a company strategy,

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Speaker 1: it is a national strategy. So when you look down

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Speaker 1: the road, if we don't find a way to respond effectively.

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Speaker 1: From your background having been an analyst on the National

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Speaker 1: Stity Council, what's the worst case scenario If the Chinese

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Speaker 1: continued deploying five G worldwide, and we turn out to

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Speaker 1: be incapable of responding. Well, I think you're going to

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Speaker 1: continuous see what we saw and what led to the

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Speaker 1: creation of the Trump administration's national security strategy, which is

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Speaker 1: we had essentially lost control of geopolitics. In other words,

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Speaker 1: the world had been drifting away from supporting and promoting

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Speaker 1: democratic principles and US national interests. And so what you're

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Speaker 1: going to find is a world that increasingly acts according

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Speaker 1: to Chinese dictates and not US dictates, which is incredibly

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Speaker 1: frightening because of their liberal norms, their readiness to suppress speech,

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Speaker 1: to suppress freedom or religion, to the readiness to oppress Well,

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Speaker 1: along that line, I want to bring up a specific

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Speaker 1: case I think you're aware of that was reported in

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Speaker 1: an article entitled Marriott employee Roy Jones hit Like Then

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Speaker 1: China Got Mad. The subtitle was the severity of the

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Speaker 1: penalty termination not reprimand highlights the unforgiving consequence for companies

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Speaker 1: that offend China. It's a fascinating story by Wayne mah

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Speaker 1: and here's what he says. That Roy Jones was running

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Speaker 1: social media accounts for Mariott International fourteen dollars an hour,

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Speaker 1: and the company had listed Tibet separately from the country

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Speaker 1: of China, and the group applauded Marriott for listening Tibet separately,

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Speaker 1: and Jones said he liked that post, so he just

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Speaker 1: put a like up. Mary Att then said, oh, it

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Speaker 1: was a mistake listening Tibet separately, because, of course the

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Speaker 1: Chinese government feels very deeply about this, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: they feel so deeply that Maryott actually fired him on

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Speaker 1: January fourteenth for having said that he liked the post

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Speaker 1: about China and Tibet being separate places. And I thought

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Speaker 1: it was fascina that the pressure apparently have been brought

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Speaker 1: to bear by the Chinese government, and that in fact,

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Speaker 1: this is not a unique thing. Give a couple more

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Speaker 1: quick examples. Xiao Jiang, who's a Chinese internet expert at

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Speaker 1: the University of California at Berkeley, said, quote, not only

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Speaker 1: can't you speak freely inside of China, but you can't

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Speaker 1: even speak freely outside of China, and that's really bad.

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Speaker 1: Close quote. And I think that it's an interesting that

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Speaker 1: you have this increasing aggressiveness by the Chinese who are

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Speaker 1: willing to go after people all over the world, not

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Speaker 1: just in China itself. To what extent is as they

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Speaker 1: get more and more social control they have through five G,

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Speaker 1: more and more information. To what extent do you think

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Speaker 1: we're going to be facing a very assertive China trying

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Speaker 1: to push things that we would never have dreamed possible

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Speaker 1: in the past. Yeah, I think I look at that

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Speaker 1: as a very clumsy kind of you know, four G

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Speaker 1: if you want to use that term, or even twentieth

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Speaker 1: century you know, with technology version of what they're going

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Speaker 1: to be able to do as time goes forward, they're

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Speaker 1: going to create the same kind of effect. In other words,

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Speaker 1: they're going to create censorship, but you're not even going

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Speaker 1: to know you're being censored. It's going to be something

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Speaker 1: that you voluntarily do because you've been incentivized to do

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Speaker 1: so in a way that is almost imperceptible to you,

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Speaker 1: much like you a very advanced marketing campaign with technology

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Speaker 1: that's going on now. So I think that just is

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Speaker 1: indicative in a very visible way of what they want

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Speaker 1: in terms of intent. Now they're putting in the pieces

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Speaker 1: so they can do that technologically in a way that

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Speaker 1: is really imperceptible. Thing is so bring and I know

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Speaker 1: you've seen this because we've been together looking at it.

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Speaker 1: But Vata Networks has put together a map of wild

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Speaker 1: way around the world world, and I think they're over

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Speaker 1: sixty countries now that have either licensing agreements or partnerships

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Speaker 1: with the Vhahwei for the role out of five G.

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Speaker 1: And there are very few countries which are rejecting the

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Speaker 1: Hahwei technology, including many of our allies, Great Britain, Germany

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Speaker 1: and others. So it strikes me that at the moment,

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Speaker 1: at least, we are really on defense and they are

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Speaker 1: really spreading with remarkable speed around the world. I mean,

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Speaker 1: how would you analyze that? I think that's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: And for the last two years I've been both talking

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Speaker 1: to the federal government and talking the industry to get

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Speaker 1: somebody to do something about it. But both sides. The

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Speaker 1: industry says that they're going to do something about it,

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Speaker 1: but in reality they don't have the ability to do

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Speaker 1: anything about it in terms of they're carrying too high

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Speaker 1: a debtload and they really have a lot of four

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Speaker 1: G investments that they still need to work off, and

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Speaker 1: the government really doesn't see that it's a responsibility of

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Speaker 1: the government in a lot of ways. We're stuck in

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Speaker 1: the situation where we're a prisoner of our own success

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Speaker 1: in terms of we've found a model with free markets

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Speaker 1: and democratic principles that worked for us prior to the

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Speaker 1: evolution of this technology, and it's beginning to move away

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Speaker 1: from us in a way that suggested the Chinese and

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Speaker 1: a lot of elites have told me privately that they

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Speaker 1: believe that China has a better economic model and it

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Speaker 1: may be something that we should begin to think about.

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Speaker 1: The United States must not quickly in order to protect

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Speaker 1: us interest to the five G world. We'll talk about

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Speaker 1: the coalition and the investment that's needed when we come back.

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Speaker 1: One thing has become apparent to me. The United States

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Speaker 1: government needs a direction that it can send signals not

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Speaker 1: only to our own government, our own private sector, but

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Speaker 1: also to the rest of the world. After Sputnik, we

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Speaker 1: made very clear that we were in the race to

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Speaker 1: get into space. We were in it seriously, and we

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Speaker 1: planned to win it. Now I think we're back in

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Speaker 1: a similar situation, and both Congress and the executive branch

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Speaker 1: and the private sector have to develop a series of

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Speaker 1: strategies that are going to both protect our health and

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Speaker 1: our privacy, but they're also going to protect our economy

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Speaker 1: and our national security. It strikes me that we still

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Speaker 1: have a tremendous amount of work to do. I know

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Speaker 1: you have been trying to arouse interestness for several years. Now.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like you're making progress or do you

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Speaker 1: think the mountain may be higher than we expected. No,

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Speaker 1: I definitely think the mountains higher than we expected. I

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Speaker 1: think there's the way that our system works the way

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Speaker 1: the private sector works. It works because the c suite

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Speaker 1: and the board of directors have a fiduciary responsibility to

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Speaker 1: the shareholders. Verising an AT and T don't write a

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Speaker 1: national security strategy. They write a strategy to make the

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Speaker 1: most profits for their shareholders. They are not incentivized to

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Speaker 1: do things that are in the national interests in a

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Speaker 1: way that the federal government is. At the same time,

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Speaker 1: the federal government has basically been designed around this very

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Speaker 1: hands off approach to business and letting them, in terms

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Speaker 1: of if it's not harmful to the citizen, kind of

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Speaker 1: pursue their interests. And so we have a fundamental flaw

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Speaker 1: in our system. We have a like you say, a

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Speaker 1: spot MC moment, but it's something that we're just not

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Speaker 1: prepared as a nation to address either from the private

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Speaker 1: sector because the system doesn't work that way, or from

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Speaker 1: the federal government because it's looking to the private sector

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Speaker 1: to do something that the private sector is not incentivized

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Speaker 1: currently to do. Five GA may be the most important

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Speaker 1: topic for our national security, our economy, our quality of

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Speaker 1: life that we will deal with in the rest of

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Speaker 1: our lifetime. Five G is so powerful and offer so

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Speaker 1: many opportunities and threats that if in fact the Chinese

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Speaker 1: dominate five G, they will change the world we live in.

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Speaker 1: They will dominate economically, they will dominate militarily, and they

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Speaker 1: will dominate in sheer knowledge. So they will know who

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Speaker 1: you call, they will know what's in your bank account,

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Speaker 1: they will know your health records. This is not some simple,

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Speaker 1: small thing. This is the central science and technology revolution

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Speaker 1: of the next fifty years. If the United States does

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Speaker 1: not get its actings place, the United States does not

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Speaker 1: catch up, it will have to play catch up. We

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Speaker 1: are now behind, and if we're not prepared to do

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Speaker 1: what it takes to win, we are very likely going

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Speaker 1: to be in a world dominated by the Chinese, who

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Speaker 1: will then have a capacity over and over again to

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Speaker 1: tell us to do the things they want, or to

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Speaker 1: have our ATMs turned off to tell us to do

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Speaker 1: what they want, or to discover that our cell phones

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Speaker 1: don't work very well. I think it's very hard to

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Speaker 1: imagine how radically different our lives would be if we

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Speaker 1: actually had a tutolitary and dictatorship with that kind of

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Speaker 1: intimate impact on our daily lives, on our economy, and

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Speaker 1: on our national security. And so we'll come back again

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Speaker 1: and again over the next year or two to five

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Speaker 1: G reporting on how's it coming, what's working, what isn't working,

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Speaker 1: what do we need to focus on? And I hope

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Speaker 1: you will find that learning about five G helps you

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Speaker 1: better understand the kind of things both on the positive

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Speaker 1: side they're going to make your life better, and the

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Speaker 1: kind of things to the negative side could make your

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Speaker 1: life dramatically worse. I'd like to hear more about what

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Speaker 1: you think about five G. Please email me with your

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Speaker 1: comments at newt at newtsworld dot com. We'll follow up

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Speaker 1: with another five G episode in the near future. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for listening. Thank you to my guests. Brigadier General

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Speaker 1: Robert Spolden. You can see the articles, videos and documents

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Speaker 1: that we relied on in researching this episode on our

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Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by

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Speaker 1: Westwood One. The executive producer is Debbie Myers. Our producer

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Speaker 1: is Gornsey Slum. Our editor is Robert Borowski. Our researcher

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Speaker 1: is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created

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Speaker 1: by Steve Penley. The music was composed by Joey Salvia.

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Speaker 1: Special thanks the team again which Sweet sixty and Westwood Once,

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Speaker 1: Tim Sabian and Robert Mathers. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld,

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Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate

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00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so

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00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: others can learn what newts World is all about. On

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Speaker 1: the next episode of newts World, What do we Really

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Speaker 1: know about the Korean Peninsula, I'll be joined by doctor

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Speaker 1: Stephen Norper for an in depth discussion about the history

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Speaker 1: of US involvement in the Korean Peninsula and what we

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Speaker 1: all need to know about what is happening with North

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Speaker 1: and South Korea today. I think there's tremendous potential, part

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Speaker 1: of which is in the character of the Korean people

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Speaker 1: and in what we've seen by way of their adaptability,

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Speaker 1: their flexibility and the rise of South Korea. As much

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Speaker 1: as the international media says, what's the model for North Korea?

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Speaker 1: Is it? China is a Vietnam or elsewhere? Really the

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Speaker 1: best models to the South. I'm New Gangwich. This is

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Speaker 1: news World