WEBVTT - Take the Wheel PT 2 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.760 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.559 last twenty five years writing about true crime. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.800 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.400 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.799 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.720 compelling true crimes. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.239 And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.040 new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.639 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.360 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.760 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:39.800 This is Buried Bones. 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.680 Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you. 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.080 I'm doing well. I know I left you hanging with 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:11.360 Thelma Todd, the very talented Thelma Todd, the Hollywood actress. 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:13.720 Do you want to give us a little bit of 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:15.560 a recap since I know it's been a week for 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.199 some of our viewers and our listeners. 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:20.520 Yeah, you know, from what I remember and what stood 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.480 out to me in the first episode on this case, 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:28.240 Thelma Todd was a young actress, actually very accomplished actress, 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.880 lived in an apartment above a restaurant that she owned 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:36.640 with a lover who happened to also be married to 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:38.959 another woman. So there's a little bit of a lover's 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:43.880 triangle within Thelma's life. And this lover, Roland, who was 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.800 he was a director or an executive. 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:49.760 Right, he was a director, film director. 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:54.440 Film director, has this beautiful house up a very steep 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:59.360 hill in the Pacific Palisades. Thelma goes out on a 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.440 Saturday night, and I don't think we discussed the details 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.640 of you know, what she did that night. However, her 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:12.320 housekeeper may ended up Monday morning looking for Thelma and 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:16.960 found Thelma slumped in the driver's side of her car 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:23.480 in the garage of Roland's house. Autopsy indicated she had 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:25.880 a fractured nose, she had some bleeding out of the mouth, 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:31.320 and she had carbon monoxide poisoning. And that's where we 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:31.919 left off. 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.120 You got it. We've got now a whole host of, 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.680 I think, very confusing information. So the first half was 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.240 really establishing, you know, her death, and I don't think 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.320 we have any clear indication of time of death. We've 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.240 got two doctors saying two different things, and we do 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.560 know there is this weird it's hard to know if 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.160 it's a lover's triangle because it was just so vague 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:59.359 between them all. And then you know, we've got Thelma, 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.799 who I think one of the question marks was is 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:07.679 this suicide? Is this something else? So let's start back 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.120 up with I had hinted at a couple of things. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:14.640 One was the threatening of Thelma's life, so let's start 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.800 with that. About ten months before Thelma died, so this 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.959 is about February of nineteen thirty five, she gets two 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.519 threatening letters in the mail. They say that she will 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.080 be harmed or killed unless she pays the letter writer 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.760 ten thousand dollars, So that's about two hundred and twenty 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.200 nine thousand dollars today. One of the letters, at least 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.720 one of them, demands that the ten thousand dollars be 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:43.040 paid to Abe Lyman, who is an orchestra leader in 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:48.960 New York, whom Thelma was once engaged to. Authorities, of course, 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.960 say this is ridiculous. Abe has nothing to do with it. 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:53.840 I mean, why would he name himself in a threatening letter? 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:59.520 But the letters are signed by the Ace of hearts. 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.440 How many stories can we do about these vague these 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.560 vague kind kidnapping rings or whatever? Now I can't remember 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:08.960 the Black Glove. I mean, I think we've had the 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:11.520 Black Hand versus the Black Glove, and now we've got 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.960 the Ace of Hearts. Someone calling himself that same name, 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.239 The Ace of Hearts, places several long distance phone calls 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:22.120 to Filma's cafe, threatening to blow the whole place up. 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:25.599 These are threats that she reported to the police, but 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.600 they don't think it's credible. None of this stuff is credible, 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.600 and ultimately the police track the threats to two men 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.159 based in New York, at least one of whom appears 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.680 to have some kind of a psychiatric illness. And this 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:41.640 is a long time ago, but I just want to 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.920 throw that out there, and it's a reminder of when 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.320 I said police were really investigating these threats. She is 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.359 a Hollywood actress, a very well known one, so she 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:56.080 is getting a lot of attention, and this story, which 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.320 probably would have been written off if she were a 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:02.320 quote unquote normal person as an accident or a suicide, 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.920 is being seriously investigated as foul play because of her status. 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.120 Now, you know, and this is, you know, part of 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:16.480 the celebrity lifestyle that people probably underappreciate in terms of 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.120 the nut jobs that are out there. You know, they 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:26.240 start obsessing and they want attention and want you know, 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.800 something back, whether it's positive or even negative. It's basically 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:35.719 they just want something, you know. I actually interviewed Evil 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:40.479 LaRue who was being stalked online. She was an actress 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:44.520 out of CSI Miami and other things, and ultimately my 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.960 partner on Golden State Killer, Steve Kramer and his agent 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:53.520 buddy Steve Bush, utilizing one of these stamps on the 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.360 letters threatening letters that have been sent in, were able 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.320 to use genealogy and identify her stalker. And he's just 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.919 some guy out I believe it was in Ohio living 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.400 with his mom, sitting in a basement, you know, threatening 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.120 Eva and her daughter over the course of you know, 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:11.880 like fifteen years. 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.200 Oh my gosh, are you serious? 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.680 Yeah, you know, And it's just that's part of when 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:22.520 you have that national level exposure, you know, you do 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.080 get those crazies that will do that. So right now, 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.960 these two letters, plus the threatening phone calls in to 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.560 Thelma which are about ten months prior to her death, 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.960 it looks like, yep, it's it sounds like authorities are 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.560 just saying it's one of these nut jobs and had 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:44.560 these these individuals have no connection to Thelma out in 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.240 LA at the time of her death. That's what it 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:48.239 sounds like, right. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.640 Yeah, they dismiss these two folks. It was just like 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.920 I said, another reminder to me also about the threat 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.000 that these stars are under, you know, constantly. I told 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.480 you in the last episode about my interview with Marcia Clark, 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:04.360 and one of the things I brought up to her 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.760 was she was on my radar before OJ because she 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.840 had prosecuted the case against the killer of Rebecca Schaeffer. 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:14.880 You know, the actress. To me when she was murdered, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.720 she was on a big TV series at the time. 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.080 She was sort of that definition of the quote unquote 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:25.560 perfect victim, you know, beautiful Hollywood actress, very humble. She's 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.360 murdered by a stalker, and that shook me that case. 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.480 Do you remember much about the Rebecca Schaeffer. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.080 Case, No, I do, you know? And of course she 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.200 just answers a knock on her door, Yeah, and the 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:41.400 offender shoots her. He was somebody who had he had 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:45.560 obsessed about her and at select points I believe he 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.640 had reached out to her, didn't get any response. He 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:53.240 ended up stalking other female actresses but then went back 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.960 and focused on Rebecca Schaeffer and then ultimately you know, 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.600 showed up better front door and just shot her, just 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.400 killed her. Yeah, it's so tragic when you think about it. 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.760 Here's this young woman whose career is taking off, and 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.760 you know, she's got this just what would probably be 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.560 an amazing life in front of her, and just to 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.720 have some random nut jobs show up and kill you. 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.600 You know, that's always this risk of when you end 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:23.080 up seeking that fame and fortune, will you draw the 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.040 attention of people that you may not want their attention. 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:32.120 Yeah, well, luckily it sounds like for Thelma, these letters stopped. 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:37.839 You know, they connected it, it was done. So let's 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.360 get back to our current timeline. So now I want 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.199 to talk about the details. We are on Saturday night. 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.560 It is Saturday night, December fourteenth. This is the last 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.880 time people see her. So about thirty six hours before 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.680 May finds Thelma, she is at her restaurant at the 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:59.640 Cafe working. She leaves around eight o'clock. She's going to 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.800 a in her honor because of these new films that 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:08.080 she's doing at the Trocadero nightclub in Hollywood. There's this 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.200 dinner that's in her honor because of the films that 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:14.520 she's been doing. Roland, the boyfriend, is there, but he 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:19.520 left before Thelma, so they kind of cross paths, and 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.559 on his way out, he reportedly told Thelma he wants 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.040 her home by two am, like a dad, be home 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:28.720 by two am, and she joked back that she'd be 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.040 back at two five. If you're paying attention to those 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:36.040 very last moments where at least publicly they were seen together, 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.240 it was like playful flirting, humor kind of thing. That 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:40.800 was the impression that I got. 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:43.320 Yeah, so they're not hiding their relationship. 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.120 No, No, I mean I think everybody knows about it, 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:52.040 but they also know that while Jewel and Roland are 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:56.640 legally married, there seem to be an actual separation there. 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.880 So again, this is not splashed all over the gossip columns, 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.880 and this is herst media times, so you know there's 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.679 yellow journalism, it's just not that's not really part of this. 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.080 So I told you that the car was back up 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.480 at the house at Roland's house, so Thelma had a 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:18.760 driver drop her back off at the cafe at three 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.280 in the morning. She had sort of requested friends to 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.800 see her at the cafe Sunday, like she had joked, 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:27.959 let's see how many of you guys actually drag yourself 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:31.240 into my cafe on Sunday, And you know, they took 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.200 that as an invitation, so they were going to plan 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:35.600 to go. So she's at the cafe all the time. 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.120 I mean she left at eight pm and then she 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.080 had her driver drop her back off at three in 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:46.400 the morning. After her night out, she is realizing that 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.920 she didn't bring her key with her to get into 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:53.280 the cafe. But she knows that Roland is home in 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.040 the apartment above the cafe because he said I'm going home, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:01.520 But it's also believed, Roland says, and Jewel says too. 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.520 Jewel was there too, So this is where things get 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.800 kind of mushy and confusing. For whatever reason, Thelma goes 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:14.679 into the apartment where Roland is and she doesn't wake 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.320 up Roland. And Roland said that this was something that 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:20.679 was really common, that he woke up really easily, and 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:22.560 she I don't think she was scared to wake him up, 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.240 but she was. I think that might be the whole 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:29.840 separate bedroom issue. But Jewel was with him at the time, 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.000 and maybe that's why. Maybe she didn't want to wake 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.000 him up either. It sounds like a very odd relationship, 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.200 but at the same time it seemed kind of normalized 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.360 in this time period. The police initially believed that she 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.640 climbed the two hundred and fifty stairs from the restaurant 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.319 up the hill to Roland's house. She doesn't have a 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.960 key to his house either, and she gets into the 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.760 garage and sits in her car, and the police at 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.920 this time had believed that she led herself into the garage, 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.679 not through the garage door, but there's like a side 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.520 door that was open. She got in her car, she 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.599 turned on the ignition and fell asleep with the door closed. 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.120 And a night watchman was scheduled to pass by about 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.440 six o'clock in the morning. And I don't know if 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:16.760 I believe this. The police think that Thelma might have 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.199 fallen asleep waiting for him. They also believe she was 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.160 pretty inebriated through all of this. So what do you 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:24.560 think of all that? I know that was a lot 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:25.760 of information all at once. 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:30.640 So they're getting information from the driver that he did 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.600 drop her off at the cafe the apartment at three 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:40.680 am in the morning. And is there any suspicion on 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:41.640 the driver at. 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:43.800 All, No, no suspicion on the driver. 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.480 And then with this idea that she went into she 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:49.720 went into Roland's room. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.760 I think the insinuation was this that she didn't have 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.680 a key for the cafe, she didn't have a key 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.000 maybe for the apartment above. Also, she didn't want to 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.520 knock on the door to wake him up, and so 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.199 she decided to walk up two hundred and fifty steps, okay, 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.320 at four in the morning, drunk, most likely to get 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.080 into a house where she doesn't have a key up 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.320 there either. The only place she actually can succeed into 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:18.080 getting into is inside the garage. And then the idea 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.200 is that she would turn on the car with the 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.920 garage door closed to wait for a night watchman. I 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:25.520 don't know why. None of that makes sense to me, 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:26.520 but maybe it does to you. 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.199 Well, I'm just wondering. This is, you know, mid December, 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.280 and even though it's you know, we're talking La Pacific Palisades. 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.480 You know, maybe it's chili. And you know, one of 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.240 the questions that I have about this nineteen thirty five 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:44.679 Lincoln Phaeton car is does it have heat which you 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.040 have turned the car on in order just to have 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.280 some heat. You know, in order to get the heat, 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.760 you need to have the engine running to heat up 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.120 the coolant that goes through the heater core, you know, 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.000 and then the fans blow through the heater core to 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:04.240 generate heat. And she just doesn't recognize that a running 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.400 car inside a closed environment is dangerous, you know, with 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.920 the carbon monoxide. You know, that's that's one thing. If 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.280 this car had was a source of heat, maybe that's 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.440 why she turned it on inside the garage and why 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.960 she went up though it seems like she she was 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:27.320 inside the cafe to get to the apartment, So why 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.080 does she leave to go all the way up those 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:35.280 steps to ultimately just get into her car. If she's 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:40.280 so inebriated, you know, judgment is impaired, you know, and 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.640 she may not be thinking right. Maybe she's thinking, Okay, well, 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.240 Roland and Jewels are down at the apartment. I'm just 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.160 going to get up to the house and stay up there, 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:51.560 you know, and crawl into a bed up there. And 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.000 then she gets all the way up there and realizes, oh, 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:54.880 I can't get in. 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.280 So here's the other side of that. There is no 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:02.960 way that woman to a fancy, spancy event in her 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:07.120 honor at that place, at that you know, restaurant, with 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.000 all of those people glammed out. What kind of shoes 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:11.000 do you think she was wearing. 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.480 Oh, she's she's going to be decked out. You know, 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.880 she has a you know, an image, a brand that 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:19.160 she has to maintain. 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.600 Yeah, heels. She's not walking up two hundred and fifty 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.600 steps in heels at four in the morning cold. I mean, 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.080 there's no way she. So May will say there's going 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:31.800 to be corners in quests that I'll tell you about, 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.800 and May will say at this corner's inquest, she hated 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.320 that she never wanted to go up that hill. Somebody 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.320 took her up there, okay, And this chauffeur says it 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.880 wasn't me. So she vanishes after he drops her off, 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.600 and they alibied him, and you know, nobody suspected him. 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.960 But that is I think the big issue here is 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:57.040 the chauffeur says she wasn't drunk. She was sober. Roland 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.800 said it would have been like her to not knock 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.240 on the door and wake him up if he didn't 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.560 have a key. She had done that before when he 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.320 was there. And she ends up throwing a rock through 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.680 the bedroom window, which I'm sure he didn't appreciate. But 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.000 then when she would lock herself out, other times she 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.480 would just go to her mom's. Now, I don't know 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:20.120 if that meant she would get in her car and 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.200 drive to her mom's or if she would call the 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.760 chauffeur back. But that's not what happened. She didn't contact 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.120 her mom. So the last thing we know is this 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.480 driver drops her off at the cafe. She's locked out there. 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.800 She's locked out of Roland's apartment. She supposedly in heels 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.640 and a mink and everything else, climbs up two hundred 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:38.760 and fifty stairs, and now's probably, paul a good time 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.680 for you to look at those maps. 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.440 Okay, And you know one question I have is when 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.160 her body's found, is she wearing heels? 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:48.760 I didn't see a note about that. I want you 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:50.600 to look at this and you tell me what you 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:55.840 think if she walked up this spot with no heels 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.280 on it because she's wearing hoes, I'm sure too. Two 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:00.720 hundred Sorry, it's two hundred and seventy steps according to 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:05.480 this newspaper. So go to pages three and four and 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.040 kind of describe when you can what you think. 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:12.000 You know. The first image is an actual photograph of 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.840 the front the storefront of the cafe. It's a bigger 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.640 building than what I was expecting. You know. It's right there, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.640 right off the side of the road. There's parkings. There's 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.720 several vehicles that are pulled up into parking spots, you know. 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:31.399 Nose in to the front of this building. There's a 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:35.200 label indicating where the sidewalk cafe was, which is that 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:40.159 Thelma's cafe, because it also says the Joya cafe above that? 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:42.359 Is that what in the same It's. 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.439 A sidewalk cafe and the Joya or whatever that is 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.760 must just be a separate business. Hers is that whole 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:48.960 bottom six that's huge? 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.120 Yeah, no, that's a good sized cafe. And then there's 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.560 a label pointing to on the right side of the photograph, 0:17:55.920 --> 0:18:00.040 which is a kind of a multi story part of 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.879 this storefront, whether it be the second or the third floor. 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.960 The label indicates that's where Thelma Todd's apartment was at. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.080 And then there's some dotted lines, which it's hard in 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:16.040 this photograph to be able to determine exactly what those 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.040 dotted lines are marking. But I think those dotted lines 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.320 are marking the kind of the steps. 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.280 Oh no, I see, it's confusing. If you look at 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.320 the second one, you'll see there's two sets of steps, 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.840 but they're almost separated by what I mean, this looks 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.199 like a hole. This woman is not doing this. I 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:34.159 don't think in heels at four in the morning. 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.000 Okay, So there's two sets of steps, and then you 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.480 have the steps go up to what appears to be 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.080 one road, You cross that road, and then you go 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.600 up a second series of steps to get to the house. 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:53.720 And those steps basically it's like two separate sets of steps, 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.320 but they're straight per this sketch on the second page 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.679 that you just sent me, And yeah, you know this 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.080 is this looks like a significant distance. You know, this 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.920 is this is a situation. It's hard to discern from 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:12.119 the photograph and the sketch sort of the spatial aspects 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.120 of what we're looking at. And two hundred and seventy 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.320 steps is a lot, you know, you think about like 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.240 a floor. You know, you're looking about twelve steps in 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.119 a residential dwelling to get from you know, like my 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.160 basement up to the main floor, twelve to fifteen steps. 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.359 And so when you're starting to talk about two hundred 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.359 and seventy steps. I mean, you're you're going up I 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.080 don't know, twenty you know, twenty floors, twenty twenty twenty 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:43.520 five floors maybe, Yeah, So obviously this is this would 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.760 be a rigorous activity. So there I could see where 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.320 there would be some concerns about Thelma doing these steps 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.240 and heels. I would think she would take her heels 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:58.359 off in order to do that. Secondly, her heart condition, 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:00.480 you know, whatever that is. You know, does a heart 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.679 condition you know, prevent her from doing this type of 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:07.480 physical exertion. But then there's the victimology. May is saying 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.040 there's no way she would ever have done that. So 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.199 if she did not walk up the steps, how does 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.280 she get up to the house? You know, I know 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:24.280 this chauffeur is not of concern. I'm just you know, 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:26.399 it's like, well, he's the last one who saw her alive, 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:34.000 right right, Okay, So how did they eliminate him? 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:36.800 So now we got to talk about witnesses, because there 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.199 were people who say they saw her or talk to 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:42.560 her on Sunday. And you know the last time he 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:44.640 saw her was when he dropped her off Sunday at 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.560 three am, so let me tell you what people said. 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:54.600 And Jule Carman, her boyfriend's wife, says that she saw 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.639 her too on Sunday. So here's what everyone says. Three 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.800 people report information to the police that, if true, would 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.359 have required Thelma to be alive on Sunday, not dead 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.880 Saturday night slash Sunday morning, So you know, the time 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.320 of death thing is becoming more interesting. One is named 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.840 Martha Ford. She's a friend of Thelma's, and she said 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.160 they spoke on the phone on Sunday. Thelma had been 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.760 invited to a cocktail party at Miss Ford's residence in 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:28.280 Laurel Canyon. Martha says that Thelma called her at four pm. 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.440 So this is like the twelve hour timeline that we're 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.760 talking about that the initial doctor said, saying that she 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.600 was on her way to this party and that she 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.280 was going to bring a friend along with her. She 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.360 did not show up, obviously to the cocktail party. And 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.640 they had the ability to trace phone calls and they 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:51.040 could not find evidence of that phone call from Martha Ford. Okay, 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:54.320 so that's witness one. Sketchy Witness number one. Do you 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:56.000 want to stop there or do you want me to 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:57.080 keep going? Or what do you think? 0:21:57.880 --> 0:21:59.720 No, keep going, I kind of want the whole picture 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:00.600 of the witnesses. 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.639 Okay. The next one is a waiter who is not 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:08.200 someone who's named I presume he didn't, you know, testify 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:10.680 in front of the corner's in quest. He was at 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:14.800 a different cafe, not her cafe, on Hollywood Boulevard, and 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.080 he tells police he saw Thelma. Who would have been 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:21.240 she would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Obviously, 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:25.440 he saw her drive past the cafe on Hollywood Boulevard 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:29.920 at two pm on Sunday, so two hours before, you know, 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:33.760 she was supposed to be talking to Martha Ford. And 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:38.120 then kind of The last one is after Thelma's death 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:42.119 a few days later on Wednesday. So Thelma was found 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.000 on a Monday morning. This is now Jewel, and Jewel 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:50.320 two days later, says she saw Thelma driving somewhere in 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.520 her car in Hollywood on Sunday. She says that she 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:59.400 was with a dark complexioned man, and Jewel later clarifies 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.240 she can't be certain she saw Thelma, but it was 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:07.159 definitely a chocolate brown Lincoln car which looked identical to 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:09.760 Thelma's car. I don't know what's happening. I mean, I 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.879 guess take the both ways. Either that Jewel is not 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:15.359 involved because there's nothing to be involved with and this 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:19.360 was an accident, or something really sketchy is happening. What 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:22.159 would Jewel be trying to do in both of those circumstances. 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.520 Well, the waiter and Jewel is the victim, the one 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:29.080 actually driving her own car. Is that their statement? 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:33.280 Well, it sounds like yes, that she and she had 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:35.640 driven her own car. Sometimes she would have a chauffeur, 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:39.920 sometimes she wouldn't, so yes, and that she was driving 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:44.920 with a dark complexioned man. Very vague from jewel statement. 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:47.680 I don't know if she was suggesting that the man 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:50.520 was driving the car, but she just said she saw Thelma. 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:53.119 So the first witness, Martha Ford, who is a friend, 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:58.520 spoke on the phone at four pm on Sunday. I 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:00.639 know you said that they had the cape ability to 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:02.840 trace phone calls and there is no evidence that that 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:04.440 phone call ever occurred. 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:09.280 So they say they found no record of any phone 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:14.960 call made between Martha and Thelma's cafe or Martha and 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:20.239 Thelma's home, so the apartment. But I would assume they 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:24.160 would run that same thing on Roland's house, or maybe 0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:26.560 she used a payphone. I don't know what she would 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:28.920 have used, but those were the two that they looked at. 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:32.119 If you have the waiter. And he's accurate in his 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:34.760 statement saying he saw Thelma drive past his cafe in 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:38.640 Hollywood Boulevard at two pm, and then Martha is now 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:40.960 saying that Thelma spoke with her on the phone at 0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:45.480 four pm. It's possible that Thelma is not at any 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:50.359 of her known locations. She's out and about now. One 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:52.919 of the things I don't know is, you know, nineteen 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:56.520 thirty five, you know phone records, you know, like billing 0:24:56.640 --> 0:25:00.400 records and stuff like that. You know how much they 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:05.159 stayed on top of local phone calls, you know, I know, 0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:08.840 you know going back, you know it's now decades later 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:13.560 in the nineteen seventies that you know, trying to trace 0:25:13.600 --> 0:25:16.320 a phone call, let's say, like an active phone call, 0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:22.840 it's it's a very labor intensive, quick moving process within 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:27.600 the phone facility itself. You know, got all sorts of 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:29.960 relays that they have to end up tracking down while 0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:32.280 that phone call is going on. That's why you know, 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:34.600 this whole thing, you know back in the day, is 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:38.000 that the person on the phone that's issuing threats and 0:25:38.040 --> 0:25:39.880 you're trying to trace that phone call. There's a clock 0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:42.800 that's sticking because when they hang up, boom, these relays 0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:46.480 just reset, and now you've lost sort of the phone 0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:49.240 the originating phone number where that phone call came in from. 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:52.960 So I'm kind of wondering how in the nineteen thirties 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:58.080 they tracked phone calls, you know. And I'm getting down 0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:00.920 to okay, if they're saying that there there's no record 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:05.720 of a phone call between Thelma and Martha Man and 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:09.159 I'm assuming Martha said she called Thelma or she was 0:26:09.200 --> 0:26:11.840 home and Thelma called her, you know, it's one or 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:15.200 the other. So they would have the you know, who's 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:17.720 the originator of the phone call? You know, how much 0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:22.160 veracity to put on the investigator's information, And I don't 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:25.120 know right now. That's that's that's a big question mark. 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.520 Is are they right and there's no phone call or 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:30.600 is it very possible there was a phone call and 0:26:30.640 --> 0:26:33.879 they just didn't look in the right place, you know, 0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:39.040 within the phone tracking system. So that's something that I'm 0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:44.120 I'm chewing on this waiter. The waiter is not an 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:49.200 associate of the victim just recognizes the victim. And this 0:26:49.240 --> 0:26:53.600 is a high profile case, you know, so there's you know, 0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:56.040 there is always going to be that question mark of 0:26:56.600 --> 0:27:00.040 is the waiter just trying to be helpful, read some 0:27:00.119 --> 0:27:04.600 thing in the newspaper and maybe mistaken identity. You'd think 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:09.119 that Thelma's car, you know, would be somewhat unusual, but again, 0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:11.639 you have a lot of wealthy people that live in 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:14.960 this area, so maybe it's not as unusual as I'm assuming. 0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:20.560 And then Jewel, Jewel's the one that's that's interesting, you know. 0:27:20.640 --> 0:27:23.200 My My concern with Jewel, of course, is is even 0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:27.880 though it appears that this triangle between her and Roland 0:27:27.920 --> 0:27:31.760 and Thelma is all out in the open and all 0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:35.520 on the up and up, you know, if she's calling 0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:40.000 in and is trying to place Thelma with some unknown 0:27:40.080 --> 0:27:43.640 man m hm, you know, is she trying to drive 0:27:43.680 --> 0:27:47.840 a wedge between Thelma and Roland, you know, or is 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:51.720 she just being honest? And again, I don't know. It's 0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:55.520 all very interesting because you have three different people saying 0:27:55.560 --> 0:28:00.560 they saw Thelma on Sunday m Yet Thelma is found 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:04.520 in the clothes that she went to the dinner from 0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:07.560 Saturday m h and you have a show first saying 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:12.240 he dropped her off at the cafe, and this isn't. 0:28:12.000 --> 0:28:14.800 Like Uber Paul. I mean, this was her regular driver 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:16.560 who was on call all the time. 0:28:16.359 --> 0:28:18.879 For her, and he's just pushing her out of the 0:28:18.920 --> 0:28:19.960 car and driving away. 0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:24.399 Well, she did not know she didn't have a key 0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:27.760 until after she got to the door, and she realized 0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:30.320 she left everything at home. And I'm assuming he was 0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:33.760 gone already, and she can't make a phone call, so 0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:36.439 you know, she went up to the apartment. I had 0:28:36.560 --> 0:28:39.840 kind of wondered if Jewel was there, which has been insinuated, 0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:43.560 and she did knock on the door and Jewel answered, 0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:45.760 and maybe that's how she caught a ride up there. 0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:48.520 But of course Jewel's not copping to anything. I don't know. 0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:50.800 I just don't trust Jewel. I don't understand any of this. 0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:55.320 Why would she let somebody, I mean, there's investments everywhere, 0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:58.080 and it's just seems like an odd relationship. 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:02.360 No, No, I think that, you know, the oddity of 0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:07.680 the relationship is concerning you know, I think I want 0:29:07.760 --> 0:29:12.000 more information about the normal routine that the chauffeur does. 0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:15.040 You know, is I can only imagine that the chauffeur. 0:29:15.640 --> 0:29:18.960 He's not just pulling up and okay, good night, or 0:29:19.200 --> 0:29:23.560 you know whatever. This sounds for somebody of Thelma's status. 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:28.280 This sounds like a professional driver that likely would escort 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:30.960 Thelma to the door or you know, help her get 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:32.560 out of the car. You know, what's what is the 0:29:32.600 --> 0:29:36.280 normal routine? And of course I know you probably don't 0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:40.040 have that information, you know. So on one hand, the 0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:44.160 autopsy results and her being found slumped in the front 0:29:44.200 --> 0:29:46.520 seat of her own vehicle inside a closed garage with 0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:53.680 carbon monoxide poisoning, you know, that suggests accidental. But I 0:29:53.720 --> 0:29:56.920 can see where there's some concern just because there seems 0:29:56.960 --> 0:30:05.240 to be other suspicious activity going on. There's churn. And 0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:08.960 now it does come down to, okay, what is the 0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:13.360 likely time of death? Can we eliminate these three witnesses 0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:17.800 on Sunday? If we can say that Thelma was truly 0:30:18.000 --> 0:30:20.800 dead thirty hours versus twelve. 0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:23.840 I think that it becomes very complicated because there's so 0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:29.080 much more information. So the chauffeur's name is Ernest Peters, 0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:34.200 and he said that she seemed scared and I was 0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:37.320 not going to bring this up until now Thelma had 0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:40.800 and this was a theory that the police claimed they 0:30:40.840 --> 0:30:44.720 went down this road. But we'll see she had apparently 0:30:45.280 --> 0:30:50.600 had a recent altercation with her ex husband, who had 0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:54.959 ties two mobsters, and there began to be speculation and 0:30:55.200 --> 0:30:58.920 the chauffeur kind of backs this up that her ex 0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:01.960 husband and mobs that have been floating around, you know, 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:05.000 this area and in her circle were pressuring her to 0:31:05.120 --> 0:31:09.520 use the cafe in gambling, and that this could have 0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:14.160 been connected to that somehow, And so the show first says, 0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:17.840 you know, she had sketchy people around. He testified at 0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:19.600 you know, what would Sue be in the corners in 0:31:19.680 --> 0:31:23.880 quest and that he, you know, just said she was 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:26.280 she was scared of her ex husband and that there 0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:29.880 had been recent issues between the two of them. But 0:31:30.640 --> 0:31:33.760 he said, you know, he put her at the cafe. 0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:36.080 There's a spot where it's in front of the cafe 0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:38.480 and also in front of a tiny set of steps 0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:40.560 that I think you see in one of the maps 0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:43.400 that go up to her apartment. I guess it's not tiny, 0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:46.440 but it's a short set of steps. So he doesn't 0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:50.160 particularly know which way she went at that point. And 0:31:50.200 --> 0:31:53.640 then you know, there's information about the mob tie stuff. 0:31:54.000 --> 0:31:56.720 Well, you know, it does it does boil down to 0:31:57.560 --> 0:31:59.400 you know, I kind of go back to the fractured 0:31:59.440 --> 0:32:03.000 nose a little little bit. Yeah, so you have the 0:32:03.880 --> 0:32:08.520 theory that she succumbs to carbon monoxide poisoning. She slumps forward, 0:32:08.640 --> 0:32:12.640 hits her nose against the steering wheel, and I'm not 0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:16.640 doubting that that could potentially fracture, but it would be 0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:20.440 a very minor. God, I remember playing basketball as a 0:32:20.520 --> 0:32:23.520 kid and I'd have that basketball rebound off the rim 0:32:23.600 --> 0:32:27.600 and just slam into my nose, and that would be 0:32:27.640 --> 0:32:29.320 a hell of a lot more force in my head, 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:31.680 just kind of slumping forward into a steering wheel. And 0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:34.440 I never broke my nose. You know, some boys had 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:38.000 their nose, noses broken by a basketball's right, So this 0:32:38.080 --> 0:32:42.440 is where you know, evaluating. Okay, the level of damage 0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:46.440 to her nose, I think is part of what I 0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:49.480 would be looking into, you know, And where the bleeding 0:32:49.600 --> 0:32:52.600 is coming out of her mouth? I mean, is her 0:32:52.720 --> 0:32:56.400 upper palette to her oral cavity, you know, the roof 0:32:56.440 --> 0:33:00.200 of her mouth is that fractured as a result this 0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:04.360 fractured nose, or is the mouth Is the blood from 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:07.520 the mouth just a result of blood, you know, kind 0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:10.600 of dripping down from the nasal cavity into the oral cavity, 0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:12.880 you know. And this is these are observations they need 0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:15.360 to be making at autopsy or should have been made 0:33:15.400 --> 0:33:18.960 at autopsy, because I mean, if her nose is crushed 0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:23.080 in and you know, her upper palette is fractured, and 0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:26.800 I would say that's not from her slumping forward, you know, 0:33:27.200 --> 0:33:34.160 somebody punched her in the nose or similar. So I think, 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:38.920 like for me to start resolving, you know, the circumstances 0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:43.480 and the suspicions and the theories, is it's going back 0:33:43.560 --> 0:33:45.840 to the core. It's going back to what does the 0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:49.160 crime scene say, What does the autopsy say? Can I 0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:53.920 see something that indicates or let's say, either corroborates or 0:33:53.920 --> 0:33:57.160 refutes the theory that this was just an accidental carbon 0:33:57.200 --> 0:33:58.320 monoxide poisoning. 0:33:58.680 --> 0:34:01.040 Let me tell you a little bit more because I 0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:03.640 I'm not going to have those details unfortunately, just about 0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:07.920 I wish we had more sure on the autopsy. But 0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:09.680 let me just tell you a little bit more about 0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:11.759 the X. And I don't know if it's going to 0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:14.680 go anywhere or not. So three years, not very long 0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:17.120 ago before she died, she married a guy named Pat 0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:20.799 did she go. He's an agent and a producer who 0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:27.319 has alleged ties to mobster Lucky Luciano and they divorced 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:30.440 two years later. You know, they were married just for 0:34:30.480 --> 0:34:33.880 two years. Now they're divorced a year before she dies. 0:34:34.239 --> 0:34:38.680 During your marriage, they have absolutely awful arguments, very like violent. 0:34:39.120 --> 0:34:43.120 Sounds like Pat is abusive and he hurts Thelma multiple occasions. 0:34:43.120 --> 0:34:46.200 He breaks her nose, and she had been the one 0:34:46.200 --> 0:34:50.280 to file for divorce saying that he was cruel. Still 0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:54.319 really weird. Side note, Pat did Chico went on to 0:34:54.400 --> 0:34:58.880 marry Gloria Vanderbilt in nineteen forty one, and she was 0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:01.399 only seventeen when they got married, and she said he 0:35:01.440 --> 0:35:07.040 was extremely abusive. So the running theory is about the mob, 0:35:07.239 --> 0:35:10.800 that she got drawn into this world because the ex husband, 0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:13.200 who has only been an ex husband for a year, 0:35:13.840 --> 0:35:17.760 was involved, and that this would have been fairly common 0:35:17.960 --> 0:35:20.239 and Roland West could have been involved too. I mean, 0:35:20.280 --> 0:35:24.480 he was a film director. The intertwining between a lot 0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:28.719 of Hollywood and the Mob was pretty tight in this 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:31.440 time period, so you know that is not out of 0:35:31.480 --> 0:35:34.280 the realm. But you're right again, it's like the details 0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:37.480 of the autopsy, you know, may or may not have 0:35:37.560 --> 0:35:39.719 told us more information. I just think all of these 0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:43.000 circumstances are so weird. I am so bothered that no 0:35:43.040 --> 0:35:45.279 one is coping to taking her up to the top 0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:48.600 of this hill, you know, and then all these things 0:35:48.640 --> 0:35:52.360 that are happening. So if she is alive on Sunday, 0:35:53.040 --> 0:35:56.840 why is she found dead Monday morning in the same 0:35:57.000 --> 0:36:00.799 clothes that she wore Saturday night? Does that make sense? 0:36:01.640 --> 0:36:05.640 Well, you know a scenario. Let's say she ends up 0:36:05.760 --> 0:36:09.800 meeting with somebody after she gets dropped off by the chauffeur, 0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:13.600 and maybe there's this is a consensual relationship, or maybe 0:36:13.840 --> 0:36:18.439 she is truly under threat but never ends up going 0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:22.719 back home in order to change the next day. This 0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:27.560 ex husband pat is he a darkly complexed guy. 0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:31.360 Here's the two of them together. Hold on, he looks 0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:33.120 like he could be darker. He looks all of skin 0:36:33.200 --> 0:36:33.360 to me. 0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:36.520 Oh yeah, is that surname like Italian? 0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:37.040 Yeah? 0:36:37.080 --> 0:36:39.960 I believe so, yeah, yeah, because he looks Yeah, the 0:36:40.000 --> 0:36:42.960 thick eyebrows looks like he has to you know, full 0:36:43.160 --> 0:36:44.600 dark head of hair. 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:49.400 But would she really not now who her current husband's 0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:52.120 girlfriend's ex husband would be. I mean I don't know. 0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:56.600 Yeah, you know that's Jule's statements. You know, is she 0:36:57.000 --> 0:37:00.360 intentionally being vague or does she not get a good look, 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:03.719 or is there an associate of you know, a mob 0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:08.719 associate of this pat to CHECKO that's now abducted. You know, 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:13.359 this is where when I start evaluating the circumstances of 0:37:13.360 --> 0:37:17.640 how Thelma died, and if there's an organization like the 0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:20.640 mob involved, one of the things that I would be 0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:25.640 doing is reaching out to the experts who have investigated 0:37:25.760 --> 0:37:32.480 mob homicides and find out do we have instances of 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:36.440 mob connections with a similar type of staged crime scene 0:37:37.000 --> 0:37:40.799 where they in essence get the victim to succumb to 0:37:40.840 --> 0:37:45.840 carbon monoxide? You know that again, the fracture knows Let's say, 0:37:46.200 --> 0:37:48.120 could that have been a punch. Could that have been 0:37:48.160 --> 0:37:55.359 a significant enough punch to where Thelma is dazed and 0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:59.040 she's an essence put inside this running vehicle inside a 0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:03.040 closed garage, has to be breathing. That's it's not like 0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:06.560 she's dead. And then this is staged to look like, 0:38:06.920 --> 0:38:10.319 you know, carbon monoxide. She has to be ingesting the 0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:14.880 carbon monoxide by breathing, so she's still alive inside that 0:38:15.000 --> 0:38:20.080 garage and taken in the carbon monoxide. The critical aspect 0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:23.960 is really assessing the one injury she has. You know, 0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:26.640 what is the level of violence. Is it consistent with 0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:31.200 just a mere slump or is there a greater force 0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:32.959 being applied? And I would say, if there's a greater 0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:35.920 force being applied and then the blood blood flows, the 0:38:35.960 --> 0:38:40.920 blood patterns, does that indicate that there's something suspicious going on? 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:46.719 If there is, if this fractured knows is significant, I 0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:51.560 think that aspect in and of itself would push this 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:56.960 case from an accidental finding to at least an indetermined 0:38:57.200 --> 0:39:01.640 finding in terms of manner of death, death by the 0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:06.359 hands of another type of scenario. So nineteen thirty five, 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:10.239 you know, it's possible that they did some photography at 0:39:10.280 --> 0:39:14.120 the crime scene in the Morgue. Pathologist should have written 0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:17.160 a report, you know, so I'd be interested in getting 0:39:17.160 --> 0:39:20.760 into the nitty gritty details of what the pathologist actually found. 0:39:21.320 --> 0:39:23.880 Okay, hang on, I think I found a photo. So 0:39:23.960 --> 0:39:26.080 this is a photo of her on the autopsy slab. 0:39:27.040 --> 0:39:29.960 This is from the book Tragic Hollywood, Beautiful, Glamorous, and 0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:32.879 still dead. When cops arrived, they knew she was dealing. 0:39:33.000 --> 0:39:35.279 They were dealing with a person of means. She was 0:39:35.320 --> 0:39:39.560 extremely well dressed. The gown, full length mahogany mink coat, 0:39:40.600 --> 0:39:44.040 lots of diamonds, expensive rings. Just as a reminder, if 0:39:44.080 --> 0:39:46.040 we're looking at the mob connection, she had a lot 0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:50.800 of jewelry, rosie, you know, cheeks. There was no trace 0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:53.120 there were no traces of bruising around her neck, and 0:39:53.160 --> 0:39:56.200 her nose was not broken, even though it looked like 0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:59.440 it had been. And it says it has erroneously reported 0:40:00.440 --> 0:40:03.400 she did have a loose filling and a slightly bloody lip. 0:40:03.920 --> 0:40:06.920 A dying camellia was pinned to her party dress. The 0:40:06.920 --> 0:40:09.400 withering flower had lost its pure white color and was 0:40:09.440 --> 0:40:11.920 turning pink. Let me go ahead and share this. 0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:14.560 So this is saying her nose was not fractured. 0:40:15.040 --> 0:40:17.880 Well, I mean, and that's what the doctor had said initially, 0:40:18.080 --> 0:40:20.920 but then there were these all of these other reports, 0:40:21.200 --> 0:40:21.640 you know. 0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:25.600 So yeah, well she's obviously so I'm looking at, you know, 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:30.479 a picture Ofthelma. She's laying on her back. She's got 0:40:30.520 --> 0:40:35.200 the typical neck rest that's used at autopsy, that's behind 0:40:35.200 --> 0:40:39.240 her head. You know, her upper body is completely covers. 0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:42.440 All I can see is pretty much from the jaw 0:40:42.719 --> 0:40:44.960 up to the top of her head and her hair. 0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:49.920 I can't tell if she's been autopsied at this point. 0:40:50.400 --> 0:40:53.600 You know, her hair may maybe covering up any incisions 0:40:53.640 --> 0:40:57.680 to her scalp. Sometimes there's deformation to the forehead, which 0:40:57.719 --> 0:41:04.080 there may be in this case, but the nose looks pristine. 0:41:05.480 --> 0:41:08.960 It does not appear that her nose was fractured. There 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:13.280 is just a slight discoloration on what appears to possibly 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:16.160 be her lower lip. You know, if this is all 0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:18.840 the damage to her face, then I would say, you 0:41:18.840 --> 0:41:21.200 know what, that laceration to her lip, If that's what 0:41:21.280 --> 0:41:26.080 that is, that's completely consistent with her slumping forward and 0:41:26.160 --> 0:41:29.440 hitting her mouth on the steering wheel. 0:41:30.560 --> 0:41:31.560 How'd she get up there? 0:41:31.800 --> 0:41:36.920 Yeah, there's definitely mysteries in terms of her movements. You know, 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:37.759 the timeline. 0:41:37.920 --> 0:41:38.799 Wait, is this her? 0:41:39.239 --> 0:41:41.000 Yeah, that might be her in the vehicle. 0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:42.680 Yeah, that's her. 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:45.240 At least at the time of this photo. She slumped 0:41:45.239 --> 0:41:48.840 to her right, and so they've opened up the front 0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:52.400 passenger door and have taken a photo with her laying there. 0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:55.600 I wonder if that's the position that she was actually 0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:58.759 found in. But the I think the bottom photo is 0:41:58.840 --> 0:41:59.960 potentially reversed. 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:03.200 Yeah, I think you might be right. Some maybe people 0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:04.800 can see it better or something. 0:42:05.400 --> 0:42:08.000 You know. Sometimes it's the way they develop the prints 0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:12.839 from negatives, and they don't they don't account for the directionality. So, 0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:17.840 I mean, it appears that she's in the middle of 0:42:17.920 --> 0:42:21.960 the front seat based on the position. If I'm looking 0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:24.560 at the top photo right, it looks like she's got 0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:27.640 this long mink coat on and she's sitting on the 0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:29.520 botto or she was sitting on the bottom of it, 0:42:30.080 --> 0:42:34.239 and then she ends up collapsing to her left. But 0:42:34.680 --> 0:42:38.920 where what I'm assuming is is where her butt is. 0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:43.760 That looks like it's towards the middle of the front 0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:45.480 seat of this vehicle. 0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:49.160 Doesn't look violent to me, and there's no space. I mean, 0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:51.040 look at it looks pretty tight to me. If she 0:42:51.080 --> 0:42:53.600 were sitting up, she's pretty close to the steering wheel, 0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:56.200 and that looks like an imposing steering wheel. I could 0:42:56.200 --> 0:42:58.200 see how that would knock her toothlues. 0:42:58.680 --> 0:43:01.200 Yeah, you know, potentially, but they're you know, this dashboard, 0:43:01.320 --> 0:43:04.160 there's other features in front of her that if she 0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:06.720 were to collapse forward, she doesn't necessarily have to collapse 0:43:06.719 --> 0:43:09.120 into the steering wheel. Like where it appears that she 0:43:09.320 --> 0:43:12.799 is sitting. It's possible that she just collapse and hit 0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:17.160 the front dash. But we also have to consider that 0:43:17.280 --> 0:43:20.400 as she's succumbing to carbon monoxide, it's not like it's 0:43:20.520 --> 0:43:25.680 just you're completely lucid one moment and then you're done 0:43:25.760 --> 0:43:29.120 the next moment. There's a process. It's possible that as 0:43:29.239 --> 0:43:34.399 she is losing awareness so coming to carbon monoxide, she's 0:43:34.520 --> 0:43:38.319 moving around, right Yeah, So it's hard to say exactly 0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:42.799 how she positioned purposely positioned herself inside this vehicle. But 0:43:42.920 --> 0:43:46.520 right now, I mean, her nose is not fractured, if 0:43:46.520 --> 0:43:49.080 there's any I can't see any blood in these photos, 0:43:49.280 --> 0:43:51.359 but I don't doubt that maybe there's some blood from 0:43:51.760 --> 0:43:56.160 a minor lip laceration, right but this is not there 0:43:56.239 --> 0:44:01.879 doesn't have there's no evidence of violence being inflicted on her. 0:44:02.000 --> 0:44:06.000 So at least from a crime scene and an autopsy standpoint, 0:44:06.440 --> 0:44:10.640 it's really tough to draw a conclusion that somebody did 0:44:10.760 --> 0:44:15.160 this to her. Now it's possible, you know, but I 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:20.080 right now, I am now leaning back towards this is accidental. 0:44:20.239 --> 0:44:23.319 She succumbed to carbon monoxide poisoning, and you know, the 0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:24.880 mystery is is well, how did she get up there? 0:44:24.920 --> 0:44:27.120 And why did she go up there? But I think 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:29.520 if she's just like, well, I'm locked out down here 0:44:29.680 --> 0:44:32.120 at the cafe in the apartment. I'm going to go 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:34.640 up and see if i can get into the house. 0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:37.040 And she can't get into the house, but she can 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:39.440 get into the garage and it's cold, and she turns 0:44:39.440 --> 0:44:42.840 the vehicle on. Right now, I think that that's the 0:44:43.520 --> 0:44:46.240 most compelling theory out there. 0:44:46.719 --> 0:44:48.600 This is another angle, but I don't know how helpful. 0:44:48.600 --> 0:44:49.520 It's an above angle. 0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:53.840 Yeah, so, and that's showing that that other photo was reversed, 0:44:53.920 --> 0:44:57.120 so this photo is accurate, and that it shows that 0:44:57.520 --> 0:45:02.120 she fell to her left and her head is on 0:45:02.520 --> 0:45:06.680 the driver's seat and the driver's door is open, with 0:45:06.800 --> 0:45:09.960 the gentleman who may be an investigator, may be a 0:45:10.680 --> 0:45:14.920 representative from the corner's office, is standing above her, not 0:45:15.000 --> 0:45:21.680 wearing gloves, no, which forty years later they weren't wearing gloves, 0:45:21.800 --> 0:45:23.839 So this is not surprising at all. 0:45:24.040 --> 0:45:26.959 Okay, well, it's good. Let me see if there's anything else. 0:45:27.239 --> 0:45:28.960 I don't know what this is. Oh, I think they're 0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:31.399 taking her body out. Is that a body bag kind 0:45:31.440 --> 0:45:31.640 of thing? 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:34.720 Yeah? It looks like, yeah, she's got they got her wrapped. 0:45:35.280 --> 0:45:38.399 You know, when all is said and done about what 0:45:38.440 --> 0:45:42.440 we've talked about. Yeah, you know, at this point, unless 0:45:42.480 --> 0:45:47.640 something compelling came up, you know, if the Corners ruled 0:45:47.640 --> 0:45:52.080 this as accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, I don't have a 0:45:52.120 --> 0:45:55.120 problem with that. I think her celebrity status and some 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:59.640 of the you know, the strange relationships and mob connections 0:45:59.640 --> 0:46:02.960 and threats and all of that, that's all very interesting. 0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:07.440 But fundamentally to be able to say that somebody came 0:46:07.480 --> 0:46:10.880 in and killed her, the evidence just isn't there with 0:46:10.920 --> 0:46:11.479 what I've seen. 0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:13.560 I agree, man, I'm gonna give a lot of credit 0:46:13.600 --> 0:46:16.560 to tragic Hollywood if anybody wants to look at some 0:46:16.600 --> 0:46:19.560 more of these photos and just some wonderful photos of 0:46:19.600 --> 0:46:22.480 her on the set. Yeah, what I mean, just a 0:46:22.520 --> 0:46:25.840 twenty nine year old actress who was working so hard, 0:46:26.120 --> 0:46:29.240 and you know, she's got this cafe and she's obviously 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:31.880 planning for the future. And I don't know how she 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:35.359 got up there. Maybe the chauffeur turned around and gave 0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:37.880 her a ride and just for some reason didn't want 0:46:37.920 --> 0:46:40.920 to say anything about it. Who knows, But this really 0:46:40.960 --> 0:46:44.160 doesn't you know that the corner said these were mild. 0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:46.040 This does not look like she was in a fight 0:46:46.200 --> 0:46:50.040 in any way. But with so many weird circumstances, her 0:46:50.080 --> 0:46:52.080 not wanting to walk up the steps, you know, her 0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:55.520 heart condition, three or four in the morning, it's cold out. Say, 0:46:55.560 --> 0:46:59.279 all of this stuff just added up to really suspiciousness, 0:46:59.360 --> 0:47:02.040 I think for everybody involved. So let me just wrap 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:07.360 this up. The corner's jury ruled that the death appeared accidental, 0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:10.640 but that it needed to be further investigated. They wanted 0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:13.200 somebody to take a closer look at the organs for 0:47:13.320 --> 0:47:16.680 more conclusive evidence, ruling out foul play. I don't know what, 0:47:16.680 --> 0:47:18.919 what do you think they were thinking. Seventy to eighty 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:22.759 percent saturation of carbon monoxide seems pretty conclusive to me. 0:47:22.880 --> 0:47:24.799 I mean, what were they thinking they would find in there? 0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:29.279 You know, I'd wonder if there had been let's say, 0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:32.920 some punches to her abdomen, which you're not necessarily going 0:47:32.960 --> 0:47:36.520 to see much on you know, this compressible part of 0:47:36.760 --> 0:47:40.560 the of the body. But some of these internal organs 0:47:40.600 --> 0:47:45.160 may demonstrate some hemorrhaging or some tissue damage, particularly the liver. 0:47:46.120 --> 0:47:49.080 That's the only thing I can really think of you know, 0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:54.319 and you know, her state of intoxication would be important 0:47:54.640 --> 0:48:00.000 in nineteen thirty five, I'm not sure outside of the pathology, 0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:02.160 just once he cuts into the body and goes, whoa, 0:48:02.200 --> 0:48:05.440 there's a lot of ethanol, you know, on board, right, 0:48:05.600 --> 0:48:08.520 I'm not sure what they were doing in terms of 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:12.440 measuring the amount of alcohol somebody had on board. And 0:48:12.480 --> 0:48:16.759 you know, nineteen thirty five celebrity actress, you know, is 0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:22.360 she abusing barbituates? Is she abusing you know, other recreational 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:26.160 drugs at the time, you know, so that could also 0:48:26.320 --> 0:48:29.799 lead to this kind of mental state to where she 0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:33.799 is now wandering up the hill, you know, stumbling up 0:48:33.800 --> 0:48:36.760 the hill, you know, to get to the house where 0:48:36.800 --> 0:48:39.480 she's doing something that she normally wouanted to do. 0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:43.480 Yeah, there are media reports, just in case somebody goes 0:48:43.480 --> 0:48:45.680 digging around in this story. There were some media reports 0:48:45.719 --> 0:48:48.800 that there was blood found in rolling in Thelma's apartment, 0:48:49.840 --> 0:48:52.759 but I mean those were just media reports hers, you know, 0:48:52.920 --> 0:48:56.160 journalism stuff, and the police never reported any of that. 0:48:56.440 --> 0:48:58.279 And then you know, of course, what's always going to 0:48:58.320 --> 0:49:00.520 come back is she wilt not have made that climb 0:49:00.600 --> 0:49:03.720 up those steps. But never say never, right, I mean, really, 0:49:03.760 --> 0:49:06.719 if you're motivated it just never say never. I mean, 0:49:07.160 --> 0:49:10.319 we can't say conclusively. It's unlikely, and I know you 0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:12.880 talk about that with victimology. It's unlikely, but it doesn't 0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:15.000 mean that one night she didn't decide to do that. 0:49:15.760 --> 0:49:18.680 There is a grand jury that convens on the case 0:49:18.680 --> 0:49:21.120 for about a month. The grand jury foreman is a 0:49:21.160 --> 0:49:24.840 guy named George Rochester, and he's kind of a grand 0:49:24.880 --> 0:49:27.920 standard is what everybody thinks. Even though they already have 0:49:27.920 --> 0:49:31.160 clear evidence from the autopsy that there's carbon monoxide poisoning, 0:49:31.239 --> 0:49:35.800 he is insisting that the county chemist analyze her organs 0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:39.040 for signs of poisoning. They do, and the report is 0:49:39.040 --> 0:49:42.080 delayed for about a month, but there's nothing. And wouldn't 0:49:42.080 --> 0:49:44.319 you think recreational drugs would have popped up on that 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:45.280 kind of a report? 0:49:45.360 --> 0:49:49.279 Also, you know, this is you know, this is an 0:49:49.360 --> 0:49:54.600 era in which labs ability to screen for a broad 0:49:54.800 --> 0:49:57.879 number of substances all at once just didn't exist. They 0:49:58.320 --> 0:50:01.200 needed to be able to have an idea on what 0:50:01.360 --> 0:50:05.800 to look for, yeah, and then utilize the analytical tools 0:50:05.840 --> 0:50:09.400 they could to specifically look for maybe a class of 0:50:09.440 --> 0:50:13.640 compounds if they're lucky, like there's different types of barbs 0:50:13.760 --> 0:50:19.000 out there, but generally I would say that unless they 0:50:19.040 --> 0:50:22.839 had an idea of what she was recreationally using, it's 0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:25.640 very possible that they would have missed whatever was in 0:50:25.680 --> 0:50:26.280 her system. 0:50:26.719 --> 0:50:30.000 Yeah, you know, I was thinking. I've done cases before 0:50:30.040 --> 0:50:32.000 where there was a big question of whether or not 0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:34.880 there was a suicide, specifically one in the nineteen thirties 0:50:35.000 --> 0:50:37.560 around the corner from my house that I did for 0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:39.520 a tenfold more wicked, where there was a young man 0:50:39.560 --> 0:50:42.280 and he left the car running and it was nineteen 0:50:42.320 --> 0:50:44.000 thirty five. He left the car running in the garage 0:50:44.000 --> 0:50:46.960 and he said, well, I didn't even realize it was running. 0:50:47.200 --> 0:50:48.759 And you know, I talked to somebody that said, no, 0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:51.200 you would realize it's running. It's loud, it's not a 0:50:51.360 --> 0:50:55.360 soft engine or anything. But you know, I was thinking, 0:50:56.160 --> 0:51:00.080 how well educated were they in nineteen thirty five? Do 0:51:00.160 --> 0:51:02.680 not closed the door, turn on your engine and let 0:51:02.719 --> 0:51:05.920 it run. I don't know. I do know that in 0:51:05.960 --> 0:51:09.440 twenty twenty one, when we had in Austin just the 0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:14.320 most horrific set of snowstorms we've ever had that paralyzed 0:51:14.360 --> 0:51:16.560 the city and it killed a lot of people, and 0:51:16.960 --> 0:51:18.680 you know, We were not prepared because we don't get 0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:20.920 snow down here. You know, our pipes are close to 0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:24.360 the surface, our electrical lines are above ground, and we 0:51:25.040 --> 0:51:26.799 you know, we're just nott We're not built for that. 0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:30.920 There were a lot of people, Paul, who would run 0:51:31.480 --> 0:51:36.080 little generators in the house. They were burning lacquered furniture 0:51:36.320 --> 0:51:40.000 in the house because they didn't know. We didn't know 0:51:40.000 --> 0:51:41.799 that that's what you're supposed to do. I did not, 0:51:41.840 --> 0:51:45.080 thank goodness, but so I was just thinking, like, is 0:51:45.120 --> 0:51:47.000 she likely to know this is a bad idea? The 0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:49.359 chauffeur is insisting she wasn't drunk, and her friends are 0:51:49.360 --> 0:51:52.920 not saying she was drunk, So I don't know. Otherwise, 0:51:53.000 --> 0:51:55.440 what is the what is the answer? There's no visible 0:51:56.000 --> 0:51:59.360 injuries really on her. If somebody locked her in the 0:51:59.400 --> 0:52:01.880 car and then turned on the gas, she would have 0:52:01.880 --> 0:52:04.640 been scraping and clawing and breaking glass and trying to 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:07.560 get out. It just doesn't make sense unless she truly 0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:09.719 didn't know that this was a bad idea, trying to 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:10.600 get warm this way. 0:52:11.200 --> 0:52:15.920 And I lean probably a majority of the population, particularly 0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:19.960 back in nineteen thirty five, probably weren't educated to the 0:52:20.040 --> 0:52:24.719 dangers of car exhaust and the carbon monoxide poisoning. So 0:52:25.160 --> 0:52:28.360 for me, I'm not surprised at all. You know that 0:52:29.080 --> 0:52:31.600 she got into a vehicle, turned it on in sided 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:35.320 an enclosed garage, and the reason that she turned the 0:52:35.400 --> 0:52:38.160 vehicle on, from my perspective, is she just wanted to 0:52:38.160 --> 0:52:41.520 be warm that night. You know, she's in a mink coat, 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:44.680 you know, so that kind of suggests that it was chili. 0:52:45.160 --> 0:52:48.560 I still don't understand all of these eyewitnesses and Martha 0:52:48.640 --> 0:52:50.760 Ford and all of this. I don't get it. Yeah, 0:52:50.880 --> 0:52:53.000 I don't get it. I don't get it. And she's famous. 0:52:53.040 --> 0:52:55.920 This is not just a normal person, a normal beautiful 0:52:55.920 --> 0:52:58.480 blonde walking down the street. But you know, I think 0:52:58.520 --> 0:53:00.480 you're right. I know you all all and we'll go 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:03.840 just back to the physical evidence, not eyewitness testimony and 0:53:03.960 --> 0:53:07.839 victimology is important, but sometimes shit happens and people change 0:53:07.920 --> 0:53:10.239 up what they're doing and you wouldn't expect it, but 0:53:10.280 --> 0:53:13.319 they do. But really, there doesn't seem to be any 0:53:13.440 --> 0:53:16.000 kind of real trauma when you look at it, so 0:53:16.480 --> 0:53:18.080 you know, of course we'll never know, but this is 0:53:18.280 --> 0:53:20.760 a pretty big mystery. This is one of those mysteries 0:53:20.760 --> 0:53:24.000 in Hollywood. You know, this is a woman who obviously 0:53:24.120 --> 0:53:26.120 was working very hard. She had a lot of promise. 0:53:26.520 --> 0:53:30.080 These films are so fun that she put out, and 0:53:30.600 --> 0:53:34.360 she just could have just accelerated and you know, maybe 0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:36.719 she would get married and you know, have a lot 0:53:36.800 --> 0:53:39.759 of things that were fulfilling to her. And it's just 0:53:39.840 --> 0:53:42.880 awful that this is the way. It sounds like just 0:53:43.280 --> 0:53:46.040 a lack of knowledge, not knowing anything about this. I'm 0:53:46.080 --> 0:53:49.600 sure this did happen often, you know, sure, Well. 0:53:49.840 --> 0:53:51.640 You know, after this, I think I'm gonna have to 0:53:51.640 --> 0:53:55.040 go and watch something on Thelma Toad. 0:53:56.360 --> 0:53:58.000 What did I look at? That was fun? There are 0:53:58.040 --> 0:53:59.480 a bunch of them, but I think it was the 0:53:59.520 --> 0:54:01.600 ten Minutes. Yeah, it was the ten minut and it 0:54:01.640 --> 0:54:04.279 was cute. It was very lucile. There's actually on that 0:54:04.360 --> 0:54:06.719 website there are some headshots of her with her co 0:54:06.920 --> 0:54:11.160 star where they're very Lucy and Ethel before Lucy and Ethel's. 0:54:10.760 --> 0:54:11.720 So oh, very cool. 0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:14.359 I like that. Yeah, I like telling stories about women. 0:54:14.400 --> 0:54:17.880 It's sad, particularly with Thelma Tood that she died, but 0:54:18.200 --> 0:54:20.480 you know, it's nice to see a woman who has 0:54:20.520 --> 0:54:24.359 a lot of independence in control, and it's nice even 0:54:24.400 --> 0:54:27.359 though it ends badly. It's nice to be able to say, 0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:30.800 these women have been here, working so hard for so long. 0:54:30.960 --> 0:54:32.680 It's just good to see an example of it. 0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:35.880 Sure, I really appreciate you bringing this case to me. 0:54:36.400 --> 0:54:39.000 You're welcome. I can pretty much guarantee we're not talking 0:54:39.000 --> 0:54:42.080 about Hollywood next week. Okay, I am not even pretty much. 0:54:42.120 --> 0:54:45.040 I can say definitely going to do another Hollywood story. 0:54:45.560 --> 0:54:48.479 It's just about six months off me trying to figure 0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:51.480 this out, but we will have another compelling case next week. 0:54:51.960 --> 0:54:55.080 I'm looking forward to it me too. Thanks Paul, all right, 0:54:55.080 --> 0:54:55.560 Thanks Kate. 0:55:00.280 --> 0:55:02.800 This has been an exactly right production. 0:55:02.800 --> 0:55:06.000 For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot 0:55:06.040 --> 0:55:08.200 com slash Buried Bones sources. 0:55:08.400 --> 0:55:10.759 Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi. 0:55:11.040 --> 0:55:15.280 Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 0:55:15.560 --> 0:55:17.840 Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 0:55:18.120 --> 0:55:20.400 Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 0:55:20.640 --> 0:55:22.680 Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 0:55:22.960 --> 0:55:27.080 Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer. 0:55:27.360 --> 0:55:30.719 You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 0:55:30.840 --> 0:55:32.000 buried Bones Pod. 0:55:32.440 --> 0:55:35.000 Kate's most recent book All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 0:55:35.000 --> 0:55:37.040 Age story of murder and the race to decode the 0:55:37.040 --> 0:55:39.120 criminal mind, is available now. 0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:43.440 And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's 0:55:43.440 --> 0:55:45.520 cold cases, is also available now. 0:55:45.840 --> 0:55:49.560 Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:55:49.640 --> 0:56:02.440 or wherever you get your podcasts.