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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I know I left you hanging with

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Speaker 1: Thelma Todd, the very talented Thelma Todd, the Hollywood actress.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to give us a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a recap since I know it's been a week for

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Speaker 1: some of our viewers and our listeners.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, from what I remember and what stood

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Speaker 2: out to me in the first episode on this case,

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Speaker 2: Thelma Todd was a young actress, actually very accomplished actress,

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Speaker 2: lived in an apartment above a restaurant that she owned

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Speaker 2: with a lover who happened to also be married to

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Speaker 2: another woman. So there's a little bit of a lover's

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Speaker 2: triangle within Thelma's life. And this lover, Roland, who was

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Speaker 2: he was a director or an executive.

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Speaker 1: Right, he was a director, film director.

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Speaker 2: Film director, has this beautiful house up a very steep

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Speaker 2: hill in the Pacific Palisades. Thelma goes out on a

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Speaker 2: Saturday night, and I don't think we discussed the details

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Speaker 2: of you know, what she did that night. However, her

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Speaker 2: housekeeper may ended up Monday morning looking for Thelma and

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Speaker 2: found Thelma slumped in the driver's side of her car

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Speaker 2: in the garage of Roland's house. Autopsy indicated she had

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Speaker 2: a fractured nose, she had some bleeding out of the mouth,

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Speaker 2: and she had carbon monoxide poisoning. And that's where we

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Speaker 2: left off.

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Speaker 1: You got it. We've got now a whole host of,

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Speaker 1: I think, very confusing information. So the first half was

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Speaker 1: really establishing, you know, her death, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: we have any clear indication of time of death. We've

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Speaker 1: got two doctors saying two different things, and we do

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Speaker 1: know there is this weird it's hard to know if

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Speaker 1: it's a lover's triangle because it was just so vague

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Speaker 1: between them all. And then you know, we've got Thelma,

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Speaker 1: who I think one of the question marks was is

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Speaker 1: this suicide? Is this something else? So let's start back

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Speaker 1: up with I had hinted at a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: One was the threatening of Thelma's life, so let's start

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Speaker 1: with that. About ten months before Thelma died, so this

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Speaker 1: is about February of nineteen thirty five, she gets two

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Speaker 1: threatening letters in the mail. They say that she will

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Speaker 1: be harmed or killed unless she pays the letter writer

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Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars, So that's about two hundred and twenty

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Speaker 1: nine thousand dollars today. One of the letters, at least

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Speaker 1: one of them, demands that the ten thousand dollars be

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Speaker 1: paid to Abe Lyman, who is an orchestra leader in

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Speaker 1: New York, whom Thelma was once engaged to. Authorities, of course,

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Speaker 1: say this is ridiculous. Abe has nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, why would he name himself in a threatening letter?

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Speaker 1: But the letters are signed by the Ace of hearts.

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Speaker 1: How many stories can we do about these vague these

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Speaker 1: vague kind kidnapping rings or whatever? Now I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the Black Glove. I mean, I think we've had the

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Speaker 1: Black Hand versus the Black Glove, and now we've got

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Speaker 1: the Ace of Hearts. Someone calling himself that same name,

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Speaker 1: The Ace of Hearts, places several long distance phone calls

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Speaker 1: to Filma's cafe, threatening to blow the whole place up.

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Speaker 1: These are threats that she reported to the police, but

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Speaker 1: they don't think it's credible. None of this stuff is credible,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately the police track the threats to two men

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Speaker 1: based in New York, at least one of whom appears

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Speaker 1: to have some kind of a psychiatric illness. And this

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Speaker 1: is a long time ago, but I just want to

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Speaker 1: throw that out there, and it's a reminder of when

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Speaker 1: I said police were really investigating these threats. She is

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Speaker 1: a Hollywood actress, a very well known one, so she

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Speaker 1: is getting a lot of attention, and this story, which

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Speaker 1: probably would have been written off if she were a

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Speaker 1: quote unquote normal person as an accident or a suicide,

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Speaker 1: is being seriously investigated as foul play because of her status.

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Speaker 2: Now, you know, and this is, you know, part of

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Speaker 2: the celebrity lifestyle that people probably underappreciate in terms of

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Speaker 2: the nut jobs that are out there. You know, they

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Speaker 2: start obsessing and they want attention and want you know,

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Speaker 2: something back, whether it's positive or even negative. It's basically

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Speaker 2: they just want something, you know. I actually interviewed Evil

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Speaker 2: LaRue who was being stalked online. She was an actress

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Speaker 2: out of CSI Miami and other things, and ultimately my

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Speaker 2: partner on Golden State Killer, Steve Kramer and his agent

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Speaker 2: buddy Steve Bush, utilizing one of these stamps on the

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Speaker 2: letters threatening letters that have been sent in, were able

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Speaker 2: to use genealogy and identify her stalker. And he's just

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Speaker 2: some guy out I believe it was in Ohio living

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Speaker 2: with his mom, sitting in a basement, you know, threatening

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Speaker 2: Eva and her daughter over the course of you know,

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Speaker 2: like fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, are you serious?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And it's just that's part of when

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Speaker 2: you have that national level exposure, you know, you do

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Speaker 2: get those crazies that will do that. So right now,

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Speaker 2: these two letters, plus the threatening phone calls in to

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Speaker 2: Thelma which are about ten months prior to her death,

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Speaker 2: it looks like, yep, it's it sounds like authorities are

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Speaker 2: just saying it's one of these nut jobs and had

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Speaker 2: these these individuals have no connection to Thelma out in

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Speaker 2: LA at the time of her death. That's what it

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Speaker 2: sounds like, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they dismiss these two folks. It was just like

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Speaker 1: I said, another reminder to me also about the threat

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Speaker 1: that these stars are under, you know, constantly. I told

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Speaker 1: you in the last episode about my interview with Marcia Clark,

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Speaker 1: and one of the things I brought up to her

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Speaker 1: was she was on my radar before OJ because she

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Speaker 1: had prosecuted the case against the killer of Rebecca Schaeffer.

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Speaker 1: You know, the actress. To me when she was murdered,

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Speaker 1: she was on a big TV series at the time.

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Speaker 1: She was sort of that definition of the quote unquote

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Speaker 1: perfect victim, you know, beautiful Hollywood actress, very humble. She's

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Speaker 1: murdered by a stalker, and that shook me that case.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember much about the Rebecca Schaeffer.

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Speaker 2: Case, No, I do, you know? And of course she

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Speaker 2: just answers a knock on her door, Yeah, and the

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Speaker 2: offender shoots her. He was somebody who had he had

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Speaker 2: obsessed about her and at select points I believe he

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Speaker 2: had reached out to her, didn't get any response. He

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Speaker 2: ended up stalking other female actresses but then went back

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Speaker 2: and focused on Rebecca Schaeffer and then ultimately you know,

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Speaker 2: showed up better front door and just shot her, just

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Speaker 2: killed her. Yeah, it's so tragic when you think about it.

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Speaker 2: Here's this young woman whose career is taking off, and

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Speaker 2: you know, she's got this just what would probably be

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Speaker 2: an amazing life in front of her, and just to

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Speaker 2: have some random nut jobs show up and kill you.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's always this risk of when you end

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Speaker 2: up seeking that fame and fortune, will you draw the

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Speaker 2: attention of people that you may not want their attention.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, luckily it sounds like for Thelma, these letters stopped.

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Speaker 1: You know, they connected it, it was done. So let's

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Speaker 1: get back to our current timeline. So now I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about the details. We are on Saturday night.

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Speaker 1: It is Saturday night, December fourteenth. This is the last

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Speaker 1: time people see her. So about thirty six hours before

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Speaker 1: May finds Thelma, she is at her restaurant at the

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Speaker 1: Cafe working. She leaves around eight o'clock. She's going to

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Speaker 1: a in her honor because of these new films that

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Speaker 1: she's doing at the Trocadero nightclub in Hollywood. There's this

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Speaker 1: dinner that's in her honor because of the films that

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Speaker 1: she's been doing. Roland, the boyfriend, is there, but he

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Speaker 1: left before Thelma, so they kind of cross paths, and

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Speaker 1: on his way out, he reportedly told Thelma he wants

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Speaker 1: her home by two am, like a dad, be home

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Speaker 1: by two am, and she joked back that she'd be

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Speaker 1: back at two five. If you're paying attention to those

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Speaker 1: very last moments where at least publicly they were seen together,

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Speaker 1: it was like playful flirting, humor kind of thing. That

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Speaker 1: was the impression that I got.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're not hiding their relationship.

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Speaker 1: No, No, I mean I think everybody knows about it,

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Speaker 1: but they also know that while Jewel and Roland are

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Speaker 1: legally married, there seem to be an actual separation there.

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Speaker 1: So again, this is not splashed all over the gossip columns,

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Speaker 1: and this is herst media times, so you know there's

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Speaker 1: yellow journalism, it's just not that's not really part of this.

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Speaker 1: So I told you that the car was back up

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Speaker 1: at the house at Roland's house, so Thelma had a

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Speaker 1: driver drop her back off at the cafe at three

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Speaker 1: in the morning. She had sort of requested friends to

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Speaker 1: see her at the cafe Sunday, like she had joked,

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Speaker 1: let's see how many of you guys actually drag yourself

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Speaker 1: into my cafe on Sunday, And you know, they took

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Speaker 1: that as an invitation, so they were going to plan

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Speaker 1: to go. So she's at the cafe all the time.

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Speaker 1: I mean she left at eight pm and then she

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Speaker 1: had her driver drop her back off at three in

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Speaker 1: the morning. After her night out, she is realizing that

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Speaker 1: she didn't bring her key with her to get into

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Speaker 1: the cafe. But she knows that Roland is home in

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Speaker 1: the apartment above the cafe because he said I'm going home,

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Speaker 1: But it's also believed, Roland says, and Jewel says too.

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Speaker 1: Jewel was there too, So this is where things get

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Speaker 1: kind of mushy and confusing. For whatever reason, Thelma goes

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Speaker 1: into the apartment where Roland is and she doesn't wake

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Speaker 1: up Roland. And Roland said that this was something that

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Speaker 1: was really common, that he woke up really easily, and

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Speaker 1: she I don't think she was scared to wake him up,

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Speaker 1: but she was. I think that might be the whole

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Speaker 1: separate bedroom issue. But Jewel was with him at the time,

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Speaker 1: and maybe that's why. Maybe she didn't want to wake

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Speaker 1: him up either. It sounds like a very odd relationship,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time it seemed kind of normalized

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Speaker 1: in this time period. The police initially believed that she

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Speaker 1: climbed the two hundred and fifty stairs from the restaurant

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Speaker 1: up the hill to Roland's house. She doesn't have a

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Speaker 1: key to his house either, and she gets into the

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Speaker 1: garage and sits in her car, and the police at

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Speaker 1: this time had believed that she led herself into the garage,

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Speaker 1: not through the garage door, but there's like a side

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Speaker 1: door that was open. She got in her car, she

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Speaker 1: turned on the ignition and fell asleep with the door closed.

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Speaker 1: And a night watchman was scheduled to pass by about

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Speaker 1: six o'clock in the morning. And I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I believe this. The police think that Thelma might have

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Speaker 1: fallen asleep waiting for him. They also believe she was

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Speaker 1: pretty inebriated through all of this. So what do you

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Speaker 1: think of all that? I know that was a lot

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Speaker 1: of information all at once.

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Speaker 2: So they're getting information from the driver that he did

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Speaker 2: drop her off at the cafe the apartment at three

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Speaker 2: am in the morning. And is there any suspicion on

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Speaker 2: the driver at.

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Speaker 1: All, No, no suspicion on the driver.

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Speaker 2: And then with this idea that she went into she

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Speaker 2: went into Roland's room.

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Speaker 1: I think the insinuation was this that she didn't have

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Speaker 1: a key for the cafe, she didn't have a key

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Speaker 1: maybe for the apartment above. Also, she didn't want to

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Speaker 1: knock on the door to wake him up, and so

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Speaker 1: she decided to walk up two hundred and fifty steps, okay,

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Speaker 1: at four in the morning, drunk, most likely to get

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Speaker 1: into a house where she doesn't have a key up

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Speaker 1: there either. The only place she actually can succeed into

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Speaker 1: getting into is inside the garage. And then the idea

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Speaker 1: is that she would turn on the car with the

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Speaker 1: garage door closed to wait for a night watchman. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why. None of that makes sense to me,

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Speaker 1: but maybe it does to you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm just wondering. This is, you know, mid December,

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Speaker 2: and even though it's you know, we're talking La Pacific Palisades.

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Speaker 2: You know, maybe it's chili. And you know, one of

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Speaker 2: the questions that I have about this nineteen thirty five

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Speaker 2: Lincoln Phaeton car is does it have heat which you

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Speaker 2: have turned the car on in order just to have

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Speaker 2: some heat. You know, in order to get the heat,

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Speaker 2: you need to have the engine running to heat up

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Speaker 2: the coolant that goes through the heater core, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then the fans blow through the heater core to

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Speaker 2: generate heat. And she just doesn't recognize that a running

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Speaker 2: car inside a closed environment is dangerous, you know, with

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Speaker 2: the carbon monoxide. You know, that's that's one thing. If

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Speaker 2: this car had was a source of heat, maybe that's

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Speaker 2: why she turned it on inside the garage and why

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Speaker 2: she went up though it seems like she she was

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Speaker 2: inside the cafe to get to the apartment, So why

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Speaker 2: does she leave to go all the way up those

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Speaker 2: steps to ultimately just get into her car. If she's

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Speaker 2: so inebriated, you know, judgment is impaired, you know, and

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Speaker 2: she may not be thinking right. Maybe she's thinking, Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: Roland and Jewels are down at the apartment. I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to get up to the house and stay up there,

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Speaker 2: you know, and crawl into a bed up there. And

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Speaker 2: then she gets all the way up there and realizes, oh,

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Speaker 2: I can't get in.

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Speaker 1: So here's the other side of that. There is no

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Speaker 1: way that woman to a fancy, spancy event in her

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Speaker 1: honor at that place, at that you know, restaurant, with

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Speaker 1: all of those people glammed out. What kind of shoes

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Speaker 1: do you think she was wearing.

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Speaker 2: Oh, she's she's going to be decked out. You know,

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Speaker 2: she has a you know, an image, a brand that

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Speaker 2: she has to maintain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, heels. She's not walking up two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: steps in heels at four in the morning cold. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's no way she. So May will say there's going

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Speaker 1: to be corners in quests that I'll tell you about,

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Speaker 1: and May will say at this corner's inquest, she hated

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Speaker 1: that she never wanted to go up that hill. Somebody

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Speaker 1: took her up there, okay, And this chauffeur says it

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Speaker 1: wasn't me. So she vanishes after he drops her off,

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Speaker 1: and they alibied him, and you know, nobody suspected him.

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Speaker 1: But that is I think the big issue here is

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Speaker 1: the chauffeur says she wasn't drunk. She was sober. Roland

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Speaker 1: said it would have been like her to not knock

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Speaker 1: on the door and wake him up if he didn't

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Speaker 1: have a key. She had done that before when he

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Speaker 1: was there. And she ends up throwing a rock through

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Speaker 1: the bedroom window, which I'm sure he didn't appreciate. But

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Speaker 1: then when she would lock herself out, other times she

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Speaker 1: would just go to her mom's. Now, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that meant she would get in her car and

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Speaker 1: drive to her mom's or if she would call the

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Speaker 1: chauffeur back. But that's not what happened. She didn't contact

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Speaker 1: her mom. So the last thing we know is this

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Speaker 1: driver drops her off at the cafe. She's locked out there.

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Speaker 1: She's locked out of Roland's apartment. She supposedly in heels

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Speaker 1: and a mink and everything else, climbs up two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty stairs, and now's probably, paul a good time

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Speaker 1: for you to look at those maps.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And you know one question I have is when

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Speaker 2: her body's found, is she wearing heels?

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Speaker 1: I didn't see a note about that. I want you

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Speaker 1: to look at this and you tell me what you

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Speaker 1: think if she walked up this spot with no heels

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Speaker 1: on it because she's wearing hoes, I'm sure too. Two

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Speaker 1: hundred Sorry, it's two hundred and seventy steps according to

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Speaker 1: this newspaper. So go to pages three and four and

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Speaker 1: kind of describe when you can what you think.

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Speaker 2: You know. The first image is an actual photograph of

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Speaker 2: the front the storefront of the cafe. It's a bigger

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Speaker 2: building than what I was expecting. You know. It's right there,

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Speaker 2: right off the side of the road. There's parkings. There's

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Speaker 2: several vehicles that are pulled up into parking spots, you know.

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Speaker 2: Nose in to the front of this building. There's a

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Speaker 2: label indicating where the sidewalk cafe was, which is that

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Speaker 2: Thelma's cafe, because it also says the Joya cafe above that?

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Speaker 2: Is that what in the same It's.

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Speaker 1: A sidewalk cafe and the Joya or whatever that is

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Speaker 1: must just be a separate business. Hers is that whole

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Speaker 1: bottom six that's huge?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a good sized cafe. And then there's

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Speaker 2: a label pointing to on the right side of the photograph,

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Speaker 2: which is a kind of a multi story part of

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Speaker 2: this storefront, whether it be the second or the third floor.

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Speaker 2: The label indicates that's where Thelma Todd's apartment was at.

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Speaker 2: And then there's some dotted lines, which it's hard in

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Speaker 2: this photograph to be able to determine exactly what those

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Speaker 2: dotted lines are marking. But I think those dotted lines

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Speaker 2: are marking the kind of the steps.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I see, it's confusing. If you look at

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Speaker 1: the second one, you'll see there's two sets of steps,

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Speaker 1: but they're almost separated by what I mean, this looks

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Speaker 1: like a hole. This woman is not doing this. I

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Speaker 1: don't think in heels at four in the morning.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So there's two sets of steps, and then you

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Speaker 2: have the steps go up to what appears to be

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Speaker 2: one road, You cross that road, and then you go

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Speaker 2: up a second series of steps to get to the house.

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Speaker 2: And those steps basically it's like two separate sets of steps,

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Speaker 2: but they're straight per this sketch on the second page

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Speaker 2: that you just sent me, And yeah, you know this

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Speaker 2: is this looks like a significant distance. You know, this

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Speaker 2: is this is a situation. It's hard to discern from

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Speaker 2: the photograph and the sketch sort of the spatial aspects

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Speaker 2: of what we're looking at. And two hundred and seventy

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Speaker 2: steps is a lot, you know, you think about like

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Speaker 2: a floor. You know, you're looking about twelve steps in

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Speaker 2: a residential dwelling to get from you know, like my

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Speaker 2: basement up to the main floor, twelve to fifteen steps.

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Speaker 2: And so when you're starting to talk about two hundred

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Speaker 2: and seventy steps. I mean, you're you're going up I

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Speaker 2: don't know, twenty you know, twenty floors, twenty twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: five floors maybe, Yeah, So obviously this is this would

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Speaker 2: be a rigorous activity. So there I could see where

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Speaker 2: there would be some concerns about Thelma doing these steps

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Speaker 2: and heels. I would think she would take her heels

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Speaker 2: off in order to do that. Secondly, her heart condition,

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Speaker 2: you know, whatever that is. You know, does a heart

348
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Speaker 2: condition you know, prevent her from doing this type of

349
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Speaker 2: physical exertion. But then there's the victimology. May is saying

350
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Speaker 2: there's no way she would ever have done that. So

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Speaker 2: if she did not walk up the steps, how does

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Speaker 2: she get up to the house? You know, I know

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Speaker 2: this chauffeur is not of concern. I'm just you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like, well, he's the last one who saw her alive,

355
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Speaker 2: right right, Okay, So how did they eliminate him?

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Speaker 1: So now we got to talk about witnesses, because there

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Speaker 1: were people who say they saw her or talk to

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Speaker 1: her on Sunday. And you know the last time he

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Speaker 1: saw her was when he dropped her off Sunday at

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Speaker 1: three am, so let me tell you what people said.

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Speaker 1: And Jule Carman, her boyfriend's wife, says that she saw

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Speaker 1: her too on Sunday. So here's what everyone says. Three

363
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Speaker 1: people report information to the police that, if true, would

364
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Speaker 1: have required Thelma to be alive on Sunday, not dead

365
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 1: Saturday night slash Sunday morning, So you know, the time

366
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Speaker 1: of death thing is becoming more interesting. One is named

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Speaker 1: Martha Ford. She's a friend of Thelma's, and she said

368
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Speaker 1: they spoke on the phone on Sunday. Thelma had been

369
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Speaker 1: invited to a cocktail party at Miss Ford's residence in

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Speaker 1: Laurel Canyon. Martha says that Thelma called her at four pm.

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Speaker 1: So this is like the twelve hour timeline that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about that the initial doctor said, saying that she

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Speaker 1: was on her way to this party and that she

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Speaker 1: was going to bring a friend along with her. She

375
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Speaker 1: did not show up, obviously to the cocktail party. And

376
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Speaker 1: they had the ability to trace phone calls and they

377
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Speaker 1: could not find evidence of that phone call from Martha Ford. Okay,

378
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Speaker 1: so that's witness one. Sketchy Witness number one. Do you

379
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Speaker 1: want to stop there or do you want me to

380
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Speaker 1: keep going? Or what do you think?

381
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Speaker 2: No, keep going, I kind of want the whole picture

382
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Speaker 2: of the witnesses.

383
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Speaker 1: Okay. The next one is a waiter who is not

384
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Speaker 1: someone who's named I presume he didn't, you know, testify

385
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 1: in front of the corner's in quest. He was at

386
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Speaker 1: a different cafe, not her cafe, on Hollywood Boulevard, and

387
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Speaker 1: he tells police he saw Thelma. Who would have been

388
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Speaker 1: she would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Obviously,

389
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Speaker 1: he saw her drive past the cafe on Hollywood Boulevard

390
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Speaker 1: at two pm on Sunday, so two hours before, you know,

391
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Speaker 1: she was supposed to be talking to Martha Ford. And

392
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Speaker 1: then kind of The last one is after Thelma's death

393
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Speaker 1: a few days later on Wednesday. So Thelma was found

394
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Speaker 1: on a Monday morning. This is now Jewel, and Jewel

395
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Speaker 1: two days later, says she saw Thelma driving somewhere in

396
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Speaker 1: her car in Hollywood on Sunday. She says that she

397
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Speaker 1: was with a dark complexioned man, and Jewel later clarifies

398
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Speaker 1: she can't be certain she saw Thelma, but it was

399
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Speaker 1: definitely a chocolate brown Lincoln car which looked identical to

400
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Speaker 1: Thelma's car. I don't know what's happening. I mean, I

401
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 1: guess take the both ways. Either that Jewel is not

402
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 1: involved because there's nothing to be involved with and this

403
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 1: was an accident, or something really sketchy is happening. What

404
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 1: would Jewel be trying to do in both of those circumstances.

405
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Speaker 2: Well, the waiter and Jewel is the victim, the one

406
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Speaker 2: actually driving her own car. Is that their statement?

407
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Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like yes, that she and she had

408
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Speaker 1: driven her own car. Sometimes she would have a chauffeur,

409
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: sometimes she wouldn't, so yes, and that she was driving

410
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Speaker 1: with a dark complexioned man. Very vague from jewel statement.

411
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Speaker 1: I don't know if she was suggesting that the man

412
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Speaker 1: was driving the car, but she just said she saw Thelma.

413
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Speaker 2: So the first witness, Martha Ford, who is a friend,

414
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: spoke on the phone at four pm on Sunday. I

415
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Speaker 2: know you said that they had the cape ability to

416
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Speaker 2: trace phone calls and there is no evidence that that

417
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Speaker 2: phone call ever occurred.

418
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Speaker 1: So they say they found no record of any phone

419
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: call made between Martha and Thelma's cafe or Martha and

420
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:20,239
Speaker 1: Thelma's home, so the apartment. But I would assume they

421
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Speaker 1: would run that same thing on Roland's house, or maybe

422
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Speaker 1: she used a payphone. I don't know what she would

423
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Speaker 1: have used, but those were the two that they looked at.

424
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Speaker 2: If you have the waiter. And he's accurate in his

425
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: statement saying he saw Thelma drive past his cafe in

426
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Speaker 2: Hollywood Boulevard at two pm, and then Martha is now

427
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: saying that Thelma spoke with her on the phone at

428
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Speaker 2: four pm. It's possible that Thelma is not at any

429
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 2: of her known locations. She's out and about now. One

430
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 2: of the things I don't know is, you know, nineteen

431
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: thirty five, you know phone records, you know, like billing

432
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 2: records and stuff like that. You know how much they

433
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: stayed on top of local phone calls, you know, I know,

434
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: you know going back, you know it's now decades later

435
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies that you know, trying to trace

436
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: a phone call, let's say, like an active phone call,

437
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 2: it's it's a very labor intensive, quick moving process within

438
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: the phone facility itself. You know, got all sorts of

439
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 2: relays that they have to end up tracking down while

440
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: that phone call is going on. That's why you know,

441
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: this whole thing, you know back in the day, is

442
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: that the person on the phone that's issuing threats and

443
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 2: you're trying to trace that phone call. There's a clock

444
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: that's sticking because when they hang up, boom, these relays

445
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: just reset, and now you've lost sort of the phone

446
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: the originating phone number where that phone call came in from.

447
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 2: So I'm kind of wondering how in the nineteen thirties

448
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: they tracked phone calls, you know. And I'm getting down

449
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 2: to okay, if they're saying that there there's no record

450
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: of a phone call between Thelma and Martha Man and

451
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 2: I'm assuming Martha said she called Thelma or she was

452
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: home and Thelma called her, you know, it's one or

453
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: the other. So they would have the you know, who's

454
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: the originator of the phone call? You know, how much

455
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: veracity to put on the investigator's information, And I don't

456
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 2: know right now. That's that's that's a big question mark.

457
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: Is are they right and there's no phone call or

458
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: is it very possible there was a phone call and

459
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 2: they just didn't look in the right place, you know,

460
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: within the phone tracking system. So that's something that I'm

461
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 2: I'm chewing on this waiter. The waiter is not an

462
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: associate of the victim just recognizes the victim. And this

463
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: is a high profile case, you know, so there's you know,

464
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: there is always going to be that question mark of

465
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 2: is the waiter just trying to be helpful, read some

466
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: thing in the newspaper and maybe mistaken identity. You'd think

467
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: that Thelma's car, you know, would be somewhat unusual, but again,

468
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 2: you have a lot of wealthy people that live in

469
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: this area, so maybe it's not as unusual as I'm assuming.

470
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: And then Jewel, Jewel's the one that's that's interesting, you know.

471
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 2: My My concern with Jewel, of course, is is even

472
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 2: though it appears that this triangle between her and Roland

473
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: and Thelma is all out in the open and all

474
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 2: on the up and up, you know, if she's calling

475
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: in and is trying to place Thelma with some unknown

476
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 2: man m hm, you know, is she trying to drive

477
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: a wedge between Thelma and Roland, you know, or is

478
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: she just being honest? And again, I don't know. It's

479
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: all very interesting because you have three different people saying

480
00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: they saw Thelma on Sunday m Yet Thelma is found

481
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: in the clothes that she went to the dinner from

482
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: Saturday m h and you have a show first saying

483
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: he dropped her off at the cafe, and this isn't.

484
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: Like Uber Paul. I mean, this was her regular driver

485
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: who was on call all the time.

486
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 2: For her, and he's just pushing her out of the

487
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: car and driving away.

488
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: Well, she did not know she didn't have a key

489
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: until after she got to the door, and she realized

490
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: she left everything at home. And I'm assuming he was

491
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: gone already, and she can't make a phone call, so

492
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: you know, she went up to the apartment. I had

493
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: kind of wondered if Jewel was there, which has been insinuated,

494
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: and she did knock on the door and Jewel answered,

495
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: and maybe that's how she caught a ride up there.

496
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: But of course Jewel's not copping to anything. I don't know.

497
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: I just don't trust Jewel. I don't understand any of this.

498
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: Why would she let somebody, I mean, there's investments everywhere,

499
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: and it's just seems like an odd relationship.

500
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 2: No, No, I think that, you know, the oddity of

501
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: the relationship is concerning you know, I think I want

502
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: more information about the normal routine that the chauffeur does.

503
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: You know, is I can only imagine that the chauffeur.

504
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: He's not just pulling up and okay, good night, or

505
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 2: you know whatever. This sounds for somebody of Thelma's status.

506
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: This sounds like a professional driver that likely would escort

507
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 2: Thelma to the door or you know, help her get

508
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: out of the car. You know, what's what is the

509
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: normal routine? And of course I know you probably don't

510
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 2: have that information, you know. So on one hand, the

511
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: autopsy results and her being found slumped in the front

512
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: seat of her own vehicle inside a closed garage with

513
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: carbon monoxide poisoning, you know, that suggests accidental. But I

514
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: can see where there's some concern just because there seems

515
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: to be other suspicious activity going on. There's churn. And

516
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 2: now it does come down to, okay, what is the

517
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: likely time of death? Can we eliminate these three witnesses

518
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: on Sunday? If we can say that Thelma was truly

519
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: dead thirty hours versus twelve.

520
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: I think that it becomes very complicated because there's so

521
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: much more information. So the chauffeur's name is Ernest Peters,

522
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: and he said that she seemed scared and I was

523
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: not going to bring this up until now Thelma had

524
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: and this was a theory that the police claimed they

525
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: went down this road. But we'll see she had apparently

526
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: had a recent altercation with her ex husband, who had

527
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,959
Speaker 1: ties two mobsters, and there began to be speculation and

528
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: the chauffeur kind of backs this up that her ex

529
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: husband and mobs that have been floating around, you know,

530
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: this area and in her circle were pressuring her to

531
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: use the cafe in gambling, and that this could have

532
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: been connected to that somehow, And so the show first says,

533
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: you know, she had sketchy people around. He testified at

534
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: you know, what would Sue be in the corners in

535
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: quest and that he, you know, just said she was

536
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: she was scared of her ex husband and that there

537
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: had been recent issues between the two of them. But

538
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: he said, you know, he put her at the cafe.

539
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: There's a spot where it's in front of the cafe

540
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: and also in front of a tiny set of steps

541
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: that I think you see in one of the maps

542
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: that go up to her apartment. I guess it's not tiny,

543
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: but it's a short set of steps. So he doesn't

544
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: particularly know which way she went at that point. And

545
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: then you know, there's information about the mob tie stuff.

546
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it does it does boil down to

547
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: you know, I kind of go back to the fractured

548
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 2: nose a little little bit. Yeah, so you have the

549
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: theory that she succumbs to carbon monoxide poisoning. She slumps forward,

550
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: hits her nose against the steering wheel, and I'm not

551
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: doubting that that could potentially fracture, but it would be

552
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: a very minor. God, I remember playing basketball as a

553
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: kid and I'd have that basketball rebound off the rim

554
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: and just slam into my nose, and that would be

555
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: a hell of a lot more force in my head,

556
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: just kind of slumping forward into a steering wheel. And

557
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: I never broke my nose. You know, some boys had

558
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: their nose, noses broken by a basketball's right, So this

559
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: is where you know, evaluating. Okay, the level of damage

560
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: to her nose, I think is part of what I

561
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: would be looking into, you know, And where the bleeding

562
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: is coming out of her mouth? I mean, is her

563
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: upper palette to her oral cavity, you know, the roof

564
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: of her mouth is that fractured as a result this

565
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: fractured nose, or is the mouth Is the blood from

566
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: the mouth just a result of blood, you know, kind

567
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: of dripping down from the nasal cavity into the oral cavity,

568
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: you know. And this is these are observations they need

569
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: to be making at autopsy or should have been made

570
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: at autopsy, because I mean, if her nose is crushed

571
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: in and you know, her upper palette is fractured, and

572
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: I would say that's not from her slumping forward, you know,

573
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: somebody punched her in the nose or similar. So I think,

574
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: like for me to start resolving, you know, the circumstances

575
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: and the suspicions and the theories, is it's going back

576
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: to the core. It's going back to what does the

577
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: crime scene say, What does the autopsy say? Can I

578
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: see something that indicates or let's say, either corroborates or

579
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 2: refutes the theory that this was just an accidental carbon

580
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: monoxide poisoning.

581
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: Let me tell you a little bit more because I

582
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: I'm not going to have those details unfortunately, just about

583
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: I wish we had more sure on the autopsy. But

584
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: let me just tell you a little bit more about

585
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: the X. And I don't know if it's going to

586
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: go anywhere or not. So three years, not very long

587
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: ago before she died, she married a guy named Pat

588
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: did she go. He's an agent and a producer who

589
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: has alleged ties to mobster Lucky Luciano and they divorced

590
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: two years later. You know, they were married just for

591
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: two years. Now they're divorced a year before she dies.

592
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: During your marriage, they have absolutely awful arguments, very like violent.

593
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: Sounds like Pat is abusive and he hurts Thelma multiple occasions.

594
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: He breaks her nose, and she had been the one

595
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 1: to file for divorce saying that he was cruel. Still

596
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: really weird. Side note, Pat did Chico went on to

597
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: marry Gloria Vanderbilt in nineteen forty one, and she was

598
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: only seventeen when they got married, and she said he

599
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: was extremely abusive. So the running theory is about the mob,

600
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: that she got drawn into this world because the ex husband,

601
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: who has only been an ex husband for a year,

602
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 1: was involved, and that this would have been fairly common

603
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: and Roland West could have been involved too. I mean,

604
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: he was a film director. The intertwining between a lot

605
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: of Hollywood and the Mob was pretty tight in this

606
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: time period, so you know that is not out of

607
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 1: the realm. But you're right again, it's like the details

608
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: of the autopsy, you know, may or may not have

609
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: told us more information. I just think all of these

610
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: circumstances are so weird. I am so bothered that no

611
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: one is coping to taking her up to the top

612
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: of this hill, you know, and then all these things

613
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: that are happening. So if she is alive on Sunday,

614
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: why is she found dead Monday morning in the same

615
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: clothes that she wore Saturday night? Does that make sense?

616
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: Well, you know a scenario. Let's say she ends up

617
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 2: meeting with somebody after she gets dropped off by the chauffeur,

618
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: and maybe there's this is a consensual relationship, or maybe

619
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 2: she is truly under threat but never ends up going

620
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 2: back home in order to change the next day. This

621
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: ex husband pat is he a darkly complexed guy.

622
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: Here's the two of them together. Hold on, he looks

623
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: like he could be darker. He looks all of skin

624
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: to me.

625
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, is that surname like Italian?

626
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah?

627
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: I believe so, yeah, yeah, because he looks Yeah, the

628
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: thick eyebrows looks like he has to you know, full

629
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: dark head of hair.

630
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: But would she really not now who her current husband's

631
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: girlfriend's ex husband would be. I mean I don't know.

632
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that's Jule's statements. You know, is she

633
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 2: intentionally being vague or does she not get a good look,

634
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: or is there an associate of you know, a mob

635
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 2: associate of this pat to CHECKO that's now abducted. You know,

636
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 2: this is where when I start evaluating the circumstances of

637
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: how Thelma died, and if there's an organization like the

638
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: mob involved, one of the things that I would be

639
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: doing is reaching out to the experts who have investigated

640
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: mob homicides and find out do we have instances of

641
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: mob connections with a similar type of staged crime scene

642
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: where they in essence get the victim to succumb to

643
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: carbon monoxide? You know that again, the fracture knows Let's say,

644
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: could that have been a punch. Could that have been

645
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 2: a significant enough punch to where Thelma is dazed and

646
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: she's an essence put inside this running vehicle inside a

647
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: closed garage, has to be breathing. That's it's not like

648
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 2: she's dead. And then this is staged to look like,

649
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 2: you know, carbon monoxide. She has to be ingesting the

650
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: carbon monoxide by breathing, so she's still alive inside that

651
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: garage and taken in the carbon monoxide. The critical aspect

652
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: is really assessing the one injury she has. You know,

653
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: what is the level of violence. Is it consistent with

654
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: just a mere slump or is there a greater force

655
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:32,959
Speaker 2: being applied? And I would say, if there's a greater

656
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: force being applied and then the blood blood flows, the

657
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: blood patterns, does that indicate that there's something suspicious going on?

658
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: If there is, if this fractured knows is significant, I

659
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: think that aspect in and of itself would push this

660
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: case from an accidental finding to at least an indetermined

661
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: finding in terms of manner of death, death by the

662
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 2: hands of another type of scenario. So nineteen thirty five,

663
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 2: you know, it's possible that they did some photography at

664
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: the crime scene in the Morgue. Pathologist should have written

665
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: a report, you know, so I'd be interested in getting

666
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 2: into the nitty gritty details of what the pathologist actually found.

667
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: Okay, hang on, I think I found a photo. So

668
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: this is a photo of her on the autopsy slab.

669
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: This is from the book Tragic Hollywood, Beautiful, Glamorous, and

670
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 1: still dead. When cops arrived, they knew she was dealing.

671
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: They were dealing with a person of means. She was

672
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: extremely well dressed. The gown, full length mahogany mink coat,

673
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: lots of diamonds, expensive rings. Just as a reminder, if

674
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: we're looking at the mob connection, she had a lot

675
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: of jewelry, rosie, you know, cheeks. There was no trace

676
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: there were no traces of bruising around her neck, and

677
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: her nose was not broken, even though it looked like

678
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: it had been. And it says it has erroneously reported

679
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: she did have a loose filling and a slightly bloody lip.

680
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: A dying camellia was pinned to her party dress. The

681
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: withering flower had lost its pure white color and was

682
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: turning pink. Let me go ahead and share this.

683
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: So this is saying her nose was not fractured.

684
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, and that's what the doctor had said initially,

685
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: but then there were these all of these other reports,

686
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: you know.

687
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, well she's obviously so I'm looking at, you know,

688
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,479
Speaker 2: a picture Ofthelma. She's laying on her back. She's got

689
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: the typical neck rest that's used at autopsy, that's behind

690
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 2: her head. You know, her upper body is completely covers.

691
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: All I can see is pretty much from the jaw

692
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: up to the top of her head and her hair.

693
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: I can't tell if she's been autopsied at this point.

694
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: You know, her hair may maybe covering up any incisions

695
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: to her scalp. Sometimes there's deformation to the forehead, which

696
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: there may be in this case, but the nose looks pristine.

697
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: It does not appear that her nose was fractured. There

698
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 2: is just a slight discoloration on what appears to possibly

699
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: be her lower lip. You know, if this is all

700
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 2: the damage to her face, then I would say, you

701
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: know what, that laceration to her lip, If that's what

702
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: that is, that's completely consistent with her slumping forward and

703
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: hitting her mouth on the steering wheel.

704
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: How'd she get up there?

705
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely mysteries in terms of her movements. You know,

706
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: the timeline.

707
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: Wait, is this her?

708
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that might be her in the vehicle.

709
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's her.

710
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 2: At least at the time of this photo. She slumped

711
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 2: to her right, and so they've opened up the front

712
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 2: passenger door and have taken a photo with her laying there.

713
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: I wonder if that's the position that she was actually

714
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 2: found in. But the I think the bottom photo is

715
00:41:58,840 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: potentially reversed.

716
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you might be right. Some maybe people

717
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:04,800
Speaker 1: can see it better or something.

718
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: You know. Sometimes it's the way they develop the prints

719
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 2: from negatives, and they don't they don't account for the directionality. So,

720
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: I mean, it appears that she's in the middle of

721
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: the front seat based on the position. If I'm looking

722
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: at the top photo right, it looks like she's got

723
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: this long mink coat on and she's sitting on the

724
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 2: botto or she was sitting on the bottom of it,

725
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: and then she ends up collapsing to her left. But

726
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: where what I'm assuming is is where her butt is.

727
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 2: That looks like it's towards the middle of the front

728
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 2: seat of this vehicle.

729
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: Doesn't look violent to me, and there's no space. I mean,

730
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: look at it looks pretty tight to me. If she

731
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: were sitting up, she's pretty close to the steering wheel,

732
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: and that looks like an imposing steering wheel. I could

733
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: see how that would knock her toothlues.

734
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, potentially, but they're you know, this dashboard,

735
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: there's other features in front of her that if she

736
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 2: were to collapse forward, she doesn't necessarily have to collapse

737
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: into the steering wheel. Like where it appears that she

738
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 2: is sitting. It's possible that she just collapse and hit

739
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: the front dash. But we also have to consider that

740
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: as she's succumbing to carbon monoxide, it's not like it's

741
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: just you're completely lucid one moment and then you're done

742
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: the next moment. There's a process. It's possible that as

743
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 2: she is losing awareness so coming to carbon monoxide, she's

744
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 2: moving around, right Yeah, So it's hard to say exactly

745
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 2: how she positioned purposely positioned herself inside this vehicle. But

746
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: right now, I mean, her nose is not fractured, if

747
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: there's any I can't see any blood in these photos,

748
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 2: but I don't doubt that maybe there's some blood from

749
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: a minor lip laceration, right but this is not there

750
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 2: doesn't have there's no evidence of violence being inflicted on her.

751
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: So at least from a crime scene and an autopsy standpoint,

752
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: it's really tough to draw a conclusion that somebody did

753
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 2: this to her. Now it's possible, you know, but I

754
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: right now, I am now leaning back towards this is accidental.

755
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 2: She succumbed to carbon monoxide poisoning, and you know, the

756
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 2: mystery is is well, how did she get up there?

757
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: And why did she go up there? But I think

758
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: if she's just like, well, I'm locked out down here

759
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: at the cafe in the apartment. I'm going to go

760
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: up and see if i can get into the house.

761
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: And she can't get into the house, but she can

762
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 2: get into the garage and it's cold, and she turns

763
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 2: the vehicle on. Right now, I think that that's the

764
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 2: most compelling theory out there.

765
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: This is another angle, but I don't know how helpful.

766
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: It's an above angle.

767
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, and that's showing that that other photo was reversed,

768
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 2: so this photo is accurate, and that it shows that

769
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: she fell to her left and her head is on

770
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 2: the driver's seat and the driver's door is open, with

771
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: the gentleman who may be an investigator, may be a

772
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: representative from the corner's office, is standing above her, not

773
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: wearing gloves, no, which forty years later they weren't wearing gloves,

774
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: So this is not surprising at all.

775
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,959
Speaker 1: Okay, well, it's good. Let me see if there's anything else.

776
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what this is. Oh, I think they're

777
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 1: taking her body out. Is that a body bag kind

778
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: of thing?

779
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? It looks like, yeah, she's got they got her wrapped.

780
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 2: You know, when all is said and done about what

781
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: we've talked about. Yeah, you know, at this point, unless

782
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 2: something compelling came up, you know, if the Corners ruled

783
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: this as accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, I don't have a

784
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 2: problem with that. I think her celebrity status and some

785
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: of the you know, the strange relationships and mob connections

786
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: and threats and all of that, that's all very interesting.

787
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: But fundamentally to be able to say that somebody came

788
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: in and killed her, the evidence just isn't there with

789
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:11,479
Speaker 2: what I've seen.

790
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: I agree, man, I'm gonna give a lot of credit

791
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: to tragic Hollywood if anybody wants to look at some

792
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: more of these photos and just some wonderful photos of

793
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: her on the set. Yeah, what I mean, just a

794
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: twenty nine year old actress who was working so hard,

795
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 1: and you know, she's got this cafe and she's obviously

796
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: planning for the future. And I don't know how she

797
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: got up there. Maybe the chauffeur turned around and gave

798
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: her a ride and just for some reason didn't want

799
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: to say anything about it. Who knows, But this really

800
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: doesn't you know that the corner said these were mild.

801
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: This does not look like she was in a fight

802
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: in any way. But with so many weird circumstances, her

803
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: not wanting to walk up the steps, you know, her

804
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: heart condition, three or four in the morning, it's cold out. Say,

805
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: all of this stuff just added up to really suspiciousness,

806
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: I think for everybody involved. So let me just wrap

807
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: this up. The corner's jury ruled that the death appeared accidental,

808
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: but that it needed to be further investigated. They wanted

809
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 1: somebody to take a closer look at the organs for

810
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: more conclusive evidence, ruling out foul play. I don't know what,

811
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,919
Speaker 1: what do you think they were thinking. Seventy to eighty

812
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: percent saturation of carbon monoxide seems pretty conclusive to me.

813
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: I mean, what were they thinking they would find in there?

814
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 2: You know, I'd wonder if there had been let's say,

815
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: some punches to her abdomen, which you're not necessarily going

816
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: to see much on you know, this compressible part of

817
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: the of the body. But some of these internal organs

818
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: may demonstrate some hemorrhaging or some tissue damage, particularly the liver.

819
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: That's the only thing I can really think of you know,

820
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 2: and you know, her state of intoxication would be important

821
00:47:54,640 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty five, I'm not sure outside of the pathology,

822
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: just once he cuts into the body and goes, whoa,

823
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: there's a lot of ethanol, you know, on board, right,

824
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what they were doing in terms of

825
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 2: measuring the amount of alcohol somebody had on board. And

826
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 2: you know, nineteen thirty five celebrity actress, you know, is

827
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 2: she abusing barbituates? Is she abusing you know, other recreational

828
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 2: drugs at the time, you know, so that could also

829
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: lead to this kind of mental state to where she

830
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 2: is now wandering up the hill, you know, stumbling up

831
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 2: the hill, you know, to get to the house where

832
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: she's doing something that she normally wouanted to do.

833
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are media reports, just in case somebody goes

834
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: digging around in this story. There were some media reports

835
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 1: that there was blood found in rolling in Thelma's apartment,

836
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: but I mean those were just media reports hers, you know,

837
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: journalism stuff, and the police never reported any of that.

838
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: And then you know, of course, what's always going to

839
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: come back is she wilt not have made that climb

840
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 1: up those steps. But never say never, right, I mean, really,

841
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: if you're motivated it just never say never. I mean,

842
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: we can't say conclusively. It's unlikely, and I know you

843
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: talk about that with victimology. It's unlikely, but it doesn't

844
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: mean that one night she didn't decide to do that.

845
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: There is a grand jury that convens on the case

846
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: for about a month. The grand jury foreman is a

847
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: guy named George Rochester, and he's kind of a grand

848
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: standard is what everybody thinks. Even though they already have

849
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: clear evidence from the autopsy that there's carbon monoxide poisoning,

850
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: he is insisting that the county chemist analyze her organs

851
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: for signs of poisoning. They do, and the report is

852
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: delayed for about a month, but there's nothing. And wouldn't

853
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: you think recreational drugs would have popped up on that

854
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 1: kind of a report?

855
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: Also, you know, this is you know, this is an

856
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: era in which labs ability to screen for a broad

857
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 2: number of substances all at once just didn't exist. They

858
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: needed to be able to have an idea on what

859
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 2: to look for, yeah, and then utilize the analytical tools

860
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 2: they could to specifically look for maybe a class of

861
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 2: compounds if they're lucky, like there's different types of barbs

862
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: out there, but generally I would say that unless they

863
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 2: had an idea of what she was recreationally using, it's

864
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 2: very possible that they would have missed whatever was in

865
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 2: her system.

866
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was thinking. I've done cases before

867
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: where there was a big question of whether or not

868
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: there was a suicide, specifically one in the nineteen thirties

869
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: around the corner from my house that I did for

870
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: a tenfold more wicked, where there was a young man

871
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 1: and he left the car running and it was nineteen

872
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: thirty five. He left the car running in the garage

873
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: and he said, well, I didn't even realize it was running.

874
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: And you know, I talked to somebody that said, no,

875
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: you would realize it's running. It's loud, it's not a

876
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: soft engine or anything. But you know, I was thinking,

877
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: how well educated were they in nineteen thirty five? Do

878
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: not closed the door, turn on your engine and let

879
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: it run. I don't know. I do know that in

880
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, when we had in Austin just the

881
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: most horrific set of snowstorms we've ever had that paralyzed

882
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: the city and it killed a lot of people, and

883
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, We were not prepared because we don't get

884
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: snow down here. You know, our pipes are close to

885
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: the surface, our electrical lines are above ground, and we

886
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 1: you know, we're just nott We're not built for that.

887
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: There were a lot of people, Paul, who would run

888
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: little generators in the house. They were burning lacquered furniture

889
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: in the house because they didn't know. We didn't know

890
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: that that's what you're supposed to do. I did not,

891
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: thank goodness, but so I was just thinking, like, is

892
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: she likely to know this is a bad idea? The

893
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: chauffeur is insisting she wasn't drunk, and her friends are

894
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: not saying she was drunk, So I don't know. Otherwise,

895
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: what is the what is the answer? There's no visible

896
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: injuries really on her. If somebody locked her in the

897
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: car and then turned on the gas, she would have

898
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: been scraping and clawing and breaking glass and trying to

899
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: get out. It just doesn't make sense unless she truly

900
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: didn't know that this was a bad idea, trying to

901
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: get warm this way.

902
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 2: And I lean probably a majority of the population, particularly

903
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 2: back in nineteen thirty five, probably weren't educated to the

904
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 2: dangers of car exhaust and the carbon monoxide poisoning. So

905
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 2: for me, I'm not surprised at all. You know that

906
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 2: she got into a vehicle, turned it on in sided

907
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 2: an enclosed garage, and the reason that she turned the

908
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: vehicle on, from my perspective, is she just wanted to

909
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 2: be warm that night. You know, she's in a mink coat,

910
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 2: you know, so that kind of suggests that it was chili.

911
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: I still don't understand all of these eyewitnesses and Martha

912
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 1: Ford and all of this. I don't get it. Yeah,

913
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: I don't get it. I don't get it. And she's famous.

914
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: This is not just a normal person, a normal beautiful

915
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: blonde walking down the street. But you know, I think

916
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: you're right. I know you all all and we'll go

917
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: just back to the physical evidence, not eyewitness testimony and

918
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 1: victimology is important, but sometimes shit happens and people change

919
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: up what they're doing and you wouldn't expect it, but

920
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: they do. But really, there doesn't seem to be any

921
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: kind of real trauma when you look at it, so

922
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: you know, of course we'll never know, but this is

923
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 1: a pretty big mystery. This is one of those mysteries

924
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 1: in Hollywood. You know, this is a woman who obviously

925
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: was working very hard. She had a lot of promise.

926
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: These films are so fun that she put out, and

927
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 1: she just could have just accelerated and you know, maybe

928
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: she would get married and you know, have a lot

929
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: of things that were fulfilling to her. And it's just

930
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: awful that this is the way. It sounds like just

931
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: a lack of knowledge, not knowing anything about this. I'm

932
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: sure this did happen often, you know, sure, Well.

933
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: You know, after this, I think I'm gonna have to

934
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 2: go and watch something on Thelma Toad.

935
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: What did I look at? That was fun? There are

936
00:53:58,040 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of them, but I think it was the

937
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: ten Minutes. Yeah, it was the ten minut and it

938
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: was cute. It was very lucile. There's actually on that

939
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: website there are some headshots of her with her co

940
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: star where they're very Lucy and Ethel before Lucy and Ethel's.

941
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 2: So oh, very cool.

942
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 1: I like that. Yeah, I like telling stories about women.

943
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: It's sad, particularly with Thelma Tood that she died, but

944
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: you know, it's nice to see a woman who has

945
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 1: a lot of independence in control, and it's nice even

946
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 1: though it ends badly. It's nice to be able to say,

947
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: these women have been here, working so hard for so long.

948
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: It's just good to see an example of it.

949
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: Sure, I really appreciate you bringing this case to me.

950
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: You're welcome. I can pretty much guarantee we're not talking

951
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: about Hollywood next week. Okay, I am not even pretty much.

952
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: I can say definitely going to do another Hollywood story.

953
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,479
Speaker 1: It's just about six months off me trying to figure

954
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: this out, but we will have another compelling case next week.

955
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to it me too. Thanks Paul, all right,

956
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: Thanks Kate.

957
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,800
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

958
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

959
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

960
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

961
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:15,280
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

962
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

963
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

964
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

965
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

966
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

967
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: buried Bones Pod.

968
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

969
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

970
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

971
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

972
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now.

973
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

974
00:55:49,640 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.