WEBVTT - Green Stimulus: Nice Work, If EU Can Get It 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.920 Hi everyone. During the initial stages of the COVID nineteen pandemic, 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.160 the European Commission stayed relatively quiet, leaving the initial response 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.720 to the member states and distributing emergency funds via the 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:12.080 European Central Bank. But on the European Commission broke its 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.760 silence and announced a plan for economic recovery and its 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.360 next long term budget. Most notably, it proposed an eye 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.600 watering one point eight five trillion euros in stimulus spending 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.040 over the next seven years, which must go to things 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.280 classified as quote green. Notable parts of the propost spending 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:29.560 include building renovations to improve efficiency, a massive rollout on 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:32.640 electric vehicle charging infrastructure, and enough spending on hydrogen to 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:34.960 make it competitive a lot sooner than it would be otherwise. 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.800 But of course, what does green actually mean? And how 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.320 are all these buildings gonna get renovated? Have we decided 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.000 which type of ev charging is going to be the standard? 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.479 Is there a skilled workforce ready to go on hydrogen? 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.599 If these questions, and I'm sure several several others can 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.200 get answered, it'll put this mountain of cash to use, 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:54.040 and it could also help proliferate green investment in new 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.400 industries globally. This weekend the show, we've got Dario Troum, 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.200 energy transition analyst for BNF here to tell us about 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:02.040 the announcement and what it will take for this money 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.400 to get spent. Our discussion is based on report he wrote, 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.920 How Green is the EU's trillion euro recovery plan. We 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:09.600 did this one a few weeks ago, but we've done 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.679 several more since then. Deep dives on buildings, hydrogen evs, 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.160 and charging networks as written up in the plan being IF. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.560 Users can get these reports on BNF dot com, to 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.240 be NF mobile app, and the Boomberg terminal. As a reminder, 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:23.520 BENIF does not provide investment or strategy advice. You can 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.160 hear the full dist claimer at the end of the show. 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.200 I'm Mark Taylor, You'redanna Perkins, and you're listening to switch 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:37.280 on the BENF podcast. Hi Dario, Welcome to the show. 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:40.920 Hi nice to be here. So we're here today and 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.960 we're going to be talking about the EU stimulus and 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.240 you've got some views on that. So this just came 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.600 out recently, did it not? Absolutely? Yeah, the Commission's kind 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.440 of switched gear after spending a lot of time with 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.280 number of states and the European Central Bank focusing on 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.920 emergency liquidity provision, so you know, how do you avoid 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:02.000 a run on banks and and companies struggling with the 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.040 debt in times of crisis to actually focusing on the recovery. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.600 So this announcement was sort of the big landmark the 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.679 EU coming together putting forward a substantial amount of money 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.160 or proposing a substantial amount of money to get us 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.880 out of this crisis once the public health part has 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.240 been taken care of, or even before considering that this 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.560 COVID nineteen pandemic is still ongoing. Let's outline it a bit. 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:29.959 So how much are we talking about here and what 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.600 is this stimulus money going to? So there's two parts. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.000 The one thing that's you know, really additive and is 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:39.120 being proposed as as a new tool on on May 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.000 twenty seven, few weeks ago, is the next generation EU. 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.120 Have they quickly named a stimulus package for NEXTRA seven 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:51.800 fifty billion euros of money that is specifically for COVID 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:57.040 nineteen recovery. But um, you didn't just focus on on 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:00.320 announcing this one off budget, but it's sort of folded 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.960 it in. It's multi annual budget negotiations, so every seven 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:08.720 years UM that you need to get its budget approved 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.799 by all the member states, and that's obviously a difficult discussion, 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.400 in particular when you have the UK, one of the 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:19.639 biggest contributors leaving and so what do you UH is 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:23.520 attempting to do here is seizing the moment of this 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:28.079 COVID nineteen crisis and the importance to develop a response 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:32.480 to push through a seven dred billion extra support. So 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.639 if you put that together, it's a one point eight 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.360 five trillion euros m. That's a lot of money. And 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:43.520 the one overarching criteria which is making it particularly interesting 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.160 for the energy transition is that for the first time 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.880 or more of all of this money has to go 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:53.720 to explicitly green investments. How do they determine what is 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.000 considered to be green? So I mean certain things are 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:01.040 quite evidently green, So you know, solo project in with projects. Actually, 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:02.680 one of the things that's been happening in the EU 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.320 and in Bloomberg in general is very involved in is 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:11.080 UM the taxonomy. So the taxonomy is a process through 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.600 which essentially review all sorts of assets classes, whether they 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.800 are physical assets or even managed assets. And you determine 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:22.320 whether or not they're green, brown, or some shade of 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.960 the two in between. So there's some assets that are 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:29.240 labeled as a transition assets in the process of becoming green, 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:32.280 and that's actually turns out, you know, it's going to 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:36.680 become a really useful tool to help the EU SS 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:41.360 with and investors in general and portfolio holders what investments 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.359 counters green. The hydrogen is one, for example, where you 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:46.279 need to be doing quite a bit more work to 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.400 see whether it's really green hydrogen or blue hydrogen or 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.200 offers a few hyrogen They are clearly their monies to 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.480 be done. Do you feel like the EU is doing 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.479 this to kind of spite the UK for leading? You know, 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.720 the EU is getting some criticism for their response to 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.279 COVID nineteen. Uh, their their lack of concentrated response, I 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.560 guess on it, And now they're all coming together with 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:10.000 more money, even with their main contributing member out. Do 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.520 you think it's an active spite So, I don't think 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.120 it's it's spite. I think it definitely it should cause 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.960 some reasons for reflection in the UK because there's a 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.360 picture of the EU that was particularly problematic to too 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:27.040 many people across the Union's first, you know, a bureaucratic 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.960 establishment that is out of death touched with member states. 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.800 That's probably the criticism that was unfair towards the people 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:38.440 in Bussels. But the otherwise that you as an integration 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:43.599 mechanism which essentially only focused on adding new countries, granting 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.119 those countries a certain access to the market, but also 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.840 to a free movement of labor, and then every year 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:54.240 organizing budget transfers from the most developed, which is oldest 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:58.200 members towards the newest was sort of an equation that 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.960 people weren't so happy with anymore. Now what happened with 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:05.839 COVID is, you know, unfortunately the crisis hit in two 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.440 countries that were very hit, but the previous financial crisis 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.279 as well, Italy in Spain. But this time one cannot 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:19.880 blame it on mismanagement of financial sector or public budgets, 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.640 and so there's a real rethinking around. You know, these 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.360 new funds, how do we distribute them? Clearly, we want 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.840 to distribute them to aid the economies that were most 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.440 hit by the COVID nighteing crisis, but also those that 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.960 are in the worst position to deal with the economic 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.679 downturn that that follows it. And you know, this shows 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:42.800 that the you is not a one way street, but 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:47.520 the cards can be reshuffered when it's needed. And and 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.400 so in the proposal of the Commission, which certainly are 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.760 still on the negotiation around really, how do you define 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:57.680 the criterias of who gets how much money? Uh? Spain, Italy, 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.960 but even France UH and then Poland are among the 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:05.520 countries are set to receive the most. Whilst you know, Germany, 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.520 the obvious country that on one hand dealt very well 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.760 with the with the public health crisis which was less 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:14.800 aggressive in the country, but also the one that's been 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.480 sitting on the most sound public budget of the large 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.560 countries in the EU, is sort of ready to redistribute. 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:24.560 And maybe just one one more thing on that to 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:29.960 show how important it is. Germany alone has done more 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.960 than half of all of the emergency liquidity and recovery 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.200 spending in the EU so far for twenty seven countries. 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.720 So that just shows you how, you know the imbalances 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.280 that you feels it needs to correct to avoid the 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:47.000 youth from fragmenting. That is that that that's a lot 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.160 of dynamics. There's clearly a lot of complexity around which 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:52.920 countries need to benefit from the money in the stimulus package. 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.160 But then there are going to be specific industries that 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.840 I assume that they want to see grow. So if 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.320 you could talk a little bit about which in austries 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.640 are most likely to benefit and maybe where they are 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:07.160 in their development, because some of these industries are less 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:11.920 mature than others in terms of technology and price competitiveness. Yes, 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.720 so in recent year, is the US refined its state 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.200 aid mechanism because it's an internal market where everybody is 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.360 supposed to play on a living playing field, and given 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.920 that they you have been too ambitious on climate, the 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:29.800 rules tend to favor already green or cleaner industries. And 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.560 so what's quite interesting now when this recovery package was 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:36.000 put together is that a lot of the rules and 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.320 infrastructure needed to ensure that the money flows to cleaner 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:44.680 assets is actually already in place now. As often when 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.640 one tries to accelerate the timeline, what's clear is we've 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.520 got a lot of money being announced and in some 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.200 new sectors being the buzzwords of the recovery package, where 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.679 we'll still need to see how do you deploy this 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.760 money efficient So on one hand, we've had hydrogen UM 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.080 where hydrogen strategy was due or issue in in the 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.200 coming weeks for the youth for the first time. But 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.400 clearly this recovery announcement jumps a gun a bit on 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.959 that and seems to say that hydrogen is set to 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.679 benefit quite a bit. Now, what all the rules, with 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.200 all the regulations of a hydrogen economy, how do you 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.320 ensure that the sector coupling works being next just published 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:29.120 a very big report on the issue. Clearly it's it's 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.080 still work in progress to do for this money to 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:37.840 flow efficiency. Similarly, on charging infrastructure, you know the business 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.360 models and their approach to incentivize and set up all 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:46.000 these charges. I told farenwere to have lofty goals, but 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:47.520 you need to see sort of you know, who is 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.679 going to put these these charges in the ground. Um. 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:56.160 Another example is energy efficiency, which in the leaked UM 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.120 information we've had on the stimulus measure by far worth 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:05.560 receiving the the most capitals spent. It's notoriously difficult projects 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.640 to ensure that investors. That means remodeling buildings right exactly 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.680 in terms of energy efficiency. Yeah, you know, because the 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:17.840 confinement obviously UM, the inequalities of where people were confined 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:20.960 and put them into light. I think everyone agreed that 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:25.120 it was it was time to really increase the pace 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:30.040 of energy efficiency and building retrofits in you plants, but 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.440 also at Members States ever, so all over Europe you're 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:37.080 you're hearing in in the early discussions around similar energy 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:38.800 efficiency in which we fits are really going to be 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.800 at the top. But one of the reasons they haven't 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.640 been doing as well as we wanted um so far 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.600 is tied to the fact that there's a lot of 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.440 clarity on incentives but use how do you do in 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.800 buildings where it's a landlord to the benefit of tenants? 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.920 How do you get things to to be replicable? So 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.439 a lot of things to figure out, But do you 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:08.640 want to announced a strategy in September the renovation with 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.240 so this money is meant to be deployed over the 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.880 course of the next seven years. Yeah, the seven fifty 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.240 billion temporary reinforcement as they call it. There there is 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.080 some discussion over how long it needs to be spent, 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.400 but it's typically going to be two too sweeyears. So 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:28.040 some of the more thrifty Member states, Denmark and Company 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.400 would like it would be more limited in time, so 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:36.240 maximum two years investment, spending some even just until the 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.480 end of this year. Whilst the Commission I think also 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.640 acknowledging what we just discussed that deploying that cash is 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:46.079 not going to be that easy in certain sectors. I 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:49.440 would like the money to be spread over a longer period, 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.760 and it's that specifically tied to green stimulus in this regard. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:57.640 This is all with the mind to reaching that zero 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.839 by how close real aligned do you think each of 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.280 the decisions along the way will be in making sure 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:09.120 that is the year is obviously the you know, the 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.920 eye catching net zero goal, but actually the one that 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.920 is a bigger issue or a bigger challenges in the 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.760 near term that you would like to increase its emissions 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:24.160 production from levels to We also have to remember that 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.839 that EU budget combines with national level efforts, so you know, 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.360 Germany is still spending over twillion euros a year on 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.200 its renewable energy subsidies. It's announced its own recovery plan, 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:38.839 frances is going to announce its own recovery plan in 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.440 September so and so forth, so you know, it's it's 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:47.000 definitely meaningful and and helping us build things in favor 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:50.520 of of meeting It just seems like we're going to 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.360 have to get very creative in terms of the scope 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:56.439 of projects that the EU is looking at in order 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.880 to meet what are arguably pretty ambitious goals. And I 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.319 know that ultimately you have to get there right that 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.600 the stakes are very high. But in addition to hydrogen, 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.719 in addition to massive rollout of charging infrastructure, do you 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:13.240 anticipate that there will be other things that pop up 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.319 that they will be willing to try and maybe be 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.000 a little bit less safe with the money and trying 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:23.800 and investing in things that could potentially be a black swan. Well, actually, 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.920 I would say in this case, you know, hydrogen is 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.040 the black swan and uh and what matter is actually 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.120 a bit more is you know, the people that are 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.680 affected by these crisis need to see the result within 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:40.000 the next two years and not in hydrogen economy all 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.320 fair and well has a lot of potential. We need 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:46.400 to press forward, but we can't put all our eggs 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.280 in that basket. And so in the in the meantime, 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.480 you need to focus on things you can do right away. 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.360 And we mentioned hydrogen, we mentioned charging infrastructure. All of 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.360 these things depend on us being able to increase the 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:00.199 amount of clean electricity we're producing. And right now you 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:04.480 have auction results in Germany where projects cannot participate because 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.000 they're not securing permits, so they're challenged in courts. The 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.079 same thing is happening in Italy, the same thing is 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.240 happening in France. Much of Central and Eastern Europe is 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:16.280 not yet sort of hadn't yet fully finalized the policies 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.800 they need and gather the public support they need to 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:23.880 roll out much more wind solar projects to to to 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.880 increase our tam power. So the governments need to to 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.520 remove some of the red tapes that you get more 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.400 shovel ready project as as one likes to call it 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.480 in the stimulus Strabon. I like that phrase. Actually shove 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.040 already is great. Let's project out and let's think about 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.080 this in terms of like how feasible is it to 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.800 remove this red tape because the European Union is full 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.320 of a lot of independent countries and one of the 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.200 things that we saw with COVID was kind of this 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:52.440 pull back to individual borders. If we're taking its clean 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.640 transition seriously, um, there's two things that we really need 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:57.800 to focus on that we haven't been doing so far 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.400 is one, you know, how do you help um existing 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.080 legacy capacity offline? And you managed to impact that has 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.680 on the falihood of two communities tied to it, so 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:13.400 thinking about calling gas in particular called top power plants 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:15.120 that need to come offline over the next ten years. 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.320 And the other is how do you ease and increase 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.520 the acceptance of the new projects that you need to 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.239 replace those assets. And there we're seeing, you know, unfortunately 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.920 the money talks and and one of the things that 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.320 working well in Frances that you increase the level of 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.120 tax revenue that uh the power plants, the solar and 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.080 wind power plants generates for the local community, you allow 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:43.800 that community to participate with equity in the project. And 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:48.160 certainly when we're going to be building you know, bigger projects. 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.080 So far Europe has been such a victim to have 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.400 because of all these Ratape has been tended to build 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:54.840 quite small projects. When we're going to big build A 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:59.440 one or hydrogen infrastructure, certainly some communities will have to 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.440 receive some funding to compensate them for that. But Darius, 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.720 it seems the biggest theme I'm hearing is that there's 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:08.760 a lot of challenges before they can actually deploy any 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.120 cash at all. My other question is there's a lot 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.040 of things that need to be cited, you know, in 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:19.040 the charging infrastructure, in the the hydrogen infrastructure, that before 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.360 companies can even start to do anything right, So is 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.320 the bottleneck actually just deploying the cash. Yes, I think, 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.480 you know, its going to be really important to show 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.360 that this money is has you know, delivers results, um 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.400 that the account for for the people that need the 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.000 most helping in the short term and definitely. But I 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:38.760 guess what I'm saying is that that I haven't heard 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.040 any examples yet where it's going to be simple just 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.520 to give the money out and see see a result quickly. 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.040 Is that true or not? I mean, one thing we 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.880 have to remember is the European Union collectively has been 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:53.040 really been building experiences around how to deploy money to 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:58.400 clean investment. European Investment Bank, it's the largest public bank 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.360 in the world, supports in clean energy primarily now. In fact, 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.840 it's it's completely excited for so few investments and there 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:11.440 of course have already fun facilities mechanisms that have allowed 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.400 money to flow to energy efficiency projects, clean energy projects, 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:20.760 charging infrastructure, rollout good infrastructure. So you know, the role 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.879 of that entity, and that's been in the bags for 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.119 for quite a wild way before the recovery plans we 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.119 discussed is going to increase. And so what you have 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.240 to expect is that a lot of the existing mechanisms 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.760 are going to be enhanced and so perhaps actually the 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.479 you know, the way is already there. We're just going 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:40.879 to notice it a lot more because the volume of 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:45.800 money going through that way it's going to increase. The 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.080 other thing is just transitions funding. I think that's one 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.320 thing that's important to mention, and that is quite new. 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.760 It's been quadrupled to forty billion from less in ten 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.280 in this latest announcement, and there it's definitely going to 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:04.000 be challenging to decide who deserves just transition funding the 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.840 most because you're essentially trying to give people money for 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:10.280 closing coal assets, and you know, does it go to 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.960 the asset owner, does it go to the community that's impacted, 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:15.840 what projects are useful to that community. You're probably not 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.400 just going to give hand outs. You have to show 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.760 them that there is a way after call and that, 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.600 you know, I think it's definitely a complex and very 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.639 human discussion, which I'm sure the Commission is going to 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.720 attract critically and regardless of the solution it takes to 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.440 to deploy that money, But it's also very important one 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.840 because so as far as I know today, we we've 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:41.720 never had really the opportunity to anticipate the disappearance of 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.000 certain sectors and try to to manage that social and 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.879 economic impact for the communities that are affected. Is the 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.560 Just Transition funding specifically for projects that would lead to 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.879 an outcome? Or is just transition part of the consideration 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.320 of all of the money that's being deployed and is 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.080 one thing that's kind of weighing in to the process. 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:06.480 So definitely a bit of both. So just transition is 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.240 a theme that runs through the announcement, But the Just 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.880 Transition Fund specifically, you know, the only countries that were 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:18.120 qualify will be those that are suffering a serious dessileration 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.760 of certain sectors. CODE is going to be the number 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.480 one on that list in the coming years. But then 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.840 they also be some for for the steel industry and 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.359 other sectors that have been competitively blows switches from the 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.000 tree transition in recent years. So quite a big menu, 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.280 but new territory. That's that's exciting, and that I think 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:40.919 it's going to play an important part in UM helping 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.920 us commit to the higher goal in Well, I'm glad 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.560 you specifically brought up coal as a part of the 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:51.080 just transition focus. But are there other things, other aspects 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.920 of this that you maybe would like to see other 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:59.200 parts of the world learn from. I think, you know, 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:02.320 we've got the U where obviously everything will be depending 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.920 the the election results. UM. It's good to see that, 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:10.080 you know. Nonetheless, Mr Trump is trying to put the 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.840 infrastructure spending that he had on the table on the 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.440 as part of the recovery discussion, so that that would 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.840 still be beneficial to the US. In China, it's a 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:26.399 slightly different discussion. Reviewables are incredibly cheap and competitive, and 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.200 it's sort of an industry that's been caught in a 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:33.560 storm of over public insensialization. So a lot more expert 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:36.600 has been put on on other new sectors which could 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.440 be beneficial to the climate transition, so increased the digitialization, 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:46.159 faster broadband, and also electricity transmission infrastructure and things like that. 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.399 One of the things that's interesting is this crisis is 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.720 happening um and closing quite as quite a big confidence 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.440 shock for for emerging economy. So typically when the world 0:20:57.600 --> 0:20:59.840 is going through a crisis, everybody prefers to put the 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.639 money and safe havens, and this is happening at a 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.160 time where actually a lot of emerging markets were growing fast. 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.520 We're taking on that to fund more public spending and 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:13.960 you know, deploy more infrastructure for for for example, in 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:17.600 in the freed energy industry, and a lot of these 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.880 countries now are going to be needing more support from 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.320 the global community, from countries but also in particular from 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:26.880 the I m F and the World Bank. So we're 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:31.720 seeing countries like South Africa, Indonesia, Vietnamsa are really really 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:36.200 central to global climate ambition efforts prepare were consider a 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:41.280 faster transition um towards the economy. You're talking about the 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.680 definitions of a green project and how those could come 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:49.400 back to corporates and investors in terms of better defining 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.560 what a green investment is, a green bond or a 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:55.280 green project that could go into a green bond, etcetera, etcetera. 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.680 Do you think the EU stimulus package will help define 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.520 terms for indust tree that will be carried out, you know, globally. Yeah, 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.639 I think it's definitely you know, increasing the urgency of 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:10.960 anyone who wants to get something funded by this stimulus 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.840 money now is is raising to get the credentials it 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.520 needs to In the ideal world, that means that your 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:20.600 regulation is ready, in time, perfect. The taxonomy gets rolled 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.600 out in every possible option on the table is labeled 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:28.280 as green, brown, or shade of boats. But what's also 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:32.200 happening is that a lot of companies are doing virtue 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.520 signaling now. So um, you know, I think the fact 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:38.760 that European oil and gas majors all confirmed that they 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.560 were going to strive towards net zero by twenty fifty 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.639 at least in their European operations, and that they were 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:48.359 committed to join the electrification trend and build clean energy. 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.680 That's clearly them put the positioning themselves to to benefit 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:57.640 or contribute I guess both to to this green recovery. 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:00.040 So I think, you know, it will be really a 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:03.879