Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, we have an extra special guest,
Speaker 1: Sadia Modsburg, director of Innovation and managing partner at the
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Foundation, a small, four billion dollar outfit dedicating itself
Speaker 1: to the betterment of mankind. How's that for a broad subject? Anyway,
Speaker 1: If you're at all interested in philanthropy or how foundations operate,
Speaker 1: and what it's like to have to think about giving
Speaker 1: away hundreds of millions of dollars a year, I expect
Speaker 1: you will find this conversation to be quite fascinating. The
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Foundation takes a decidedly off center approach. As the
Speaker 1: expression goes, they are not looking to give a man
Speaker 1: of fish as much as they are looking to find
Speaker 1: the economic choke point that is leading to whatever distress
Speaker 1: any given region is suffering and find ways to fix
Speaker 1: that on a permanent basis. Two so called teach the
Speaker 1: person to fish. Uh. They've spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: thinking about things like resilience and how cities and regions
Speaker 1: can develop resiliency. Two ongoing threats, be they economic, terrorist,
Speaker 1: or even just threats um caused by the weather like
Speaker 1: Super so Sandy or Katrina all told, I found this
Speaker 1: to be quite a fascinating conversation, and if you are
Speaker 1: at all interested in all things philanthropy, I think you'll
Speaker 1: similarly find it interesting. With no further ado, here is
Speaker 1: my conversation with Saudia Madsburg. This is Masters in Business
Speaker 1: with very Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio Mice. Special guest today
Speaker 1: is Sadia Mottsburg. She is the managing director at the
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Foundation, which has about four billion dollars in assets.
Speaker 1: She joined the foundation in and leads the foundation work
Speaker 1: on innovation. Previously, she was senior vice president for strategic
Speaker 1: Planning at the New York City Economic Development Corp. She
Speaker 1: spent six years at Mackenzie and four years at Cisco.
Speaker 1: Has a Masters in Science in Applied Economics from Copenhagen
Speaker 1: Business School, as well as an undergraduate degree in international business.
Speaker 1: Saudia Madsburg, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you, briam delighted to
Speaker 1: be here. Uh and it's a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 1: So let's spend a little bit of time on your
Speaker 1: background before we delve into the details of what the
Speaker 1: foundation does. How do you go from being a consultant
Speaker 1: at mackenzie and working on telecom technology at Cisco, to
Speaker 1: too of working in a foundation. How does that trend
Speaker 1: position take place? So if you had asked me, you know,
Speaker 1: twenty odd years ago, whether I think I would be
Speaker 1: sitting in the position I'm in now, the answer would
Speaker 1: probably be no, because it hasn't been an intentional career
Speaker 1: choice that I made from the very beginning. UM, I've
Speaker 1: always followed my intuition and my feeling in terms of
Speaker 1: what I need to be doing and where I need
Speaker 1: to be doing that. So that is what took me
Speaker 1: from consulting to the world of tech, to public um
Speaker 1: sector in terms of New York City and now here
Speaker 1: at philanthropy. But as I do reflect back at all
Speaker 1: of this, I do think that the experiences I've gathered
Speaker 1: along the way put me in a better position to
Speaker 1: be doing the job I'm doing today. So so obviously
Speaker 1: with an entity like McKenzie, which is known as a
Speaker 1: consultant to all different manners of organizations and businesses, UM,
Speaker 1: there's clearly and overlap. But technology telecom, how does that
Speaker 1: translate into heading up the innovation project Rockefeller? So technology,
Speaker 1: I would say I mean always but a lot recently
Speaker 1: as well, is playing a critical role in terms of
Speaker 1: how society is developing, how the basic fundamentals of you know,
Speaker 1: the job market are being shaped, what has happened, where
Speaker 1: growth is coming from, how we interact with each other,
Speaker 1: how we work with each other. Uh, the work that
Speaker 1: I did at Cisco was very much about that. It
Speaker 1: was about understanding what is the fundamental role that technology
Speaker 1: plays in our lives at work and outside of work,
Speaker 1: and how can we use technology to address some of
Speaker 1: the fundamental challenges and opportunities. Because it's not all about
Speaker 1: challenges as we go along, So let's talk about some
Speaker 1: of those challenges and some of those opportunities. I want
Speaker 1: to reference something you had blocked about for the Foundation,
Speaker 1: the Innovative Finance Revolution. What is that and what does
Speaker 1: the Foundation do with that? So before I get to
Speaker 1: describing the revolution, maybe I can dis where have the
Speaker 1: challenge that that revolution attempts to address. So twenty fifteen
Speaker 1: I think was a landmark year and in many different ways,
Speaker 1: but there are two particular things that we saw happened
Speaker 1: that year. One was that the world came together to
Speaker 1: um agree on what we call the Sustainable Development goals,
Speaker 1: which are seventeen very lofty goals about how we want
Speaker 1: the world, what we want the world to look like.
Speaker 1: At the same time, we also had the Paris Climate
Speaker 1: Agreement that you know, most countries around the world came
Speaker 1: together and agreed on and has been ratified by you know,
Speaker 1: a significant number of them. I think there's one large
Speaker 1: country that hasn't gotten around to signing offer right, and
Speaker 1: we can we can get to what that actually means
Speaker 1: in practical attempts. But both of those agreements kind of
Speaker 1: brought to the forefront the big question of how are
Speaker 1: we going to pay for all of this? How are
Speaker 1: we going to pay for these sustainable development goals? And
Speaker 1: this isn't just about developing countries, it's about us, Europe,
Speaker 1: you know, the entire world. And how are we going
Speaker 1: to pay for are all the climate related efforts that
Speaker 1: we want to do, And that is where innovative finance
Speaker 1: comes in. And just to put a few numbers on
Speaker 1: the table as well, it's estimated that for the sustainable
Speaker 1: development goals, they're going to cost around fifty to seventy
Speaker 1: trillion over the next decade. Trillion trillion with a capital
Speaker 1: T that's a lot of zeros, and there are also
Speaker 1: some you know, and and these are high level estimates,
Speaker 1: so when you dig down, I'm sure you can refine
Speaker 1: it along the way, but they're also estimate stent that
Speaker 1: there's a massive funding gap in terms of how we're
Speaker 1: going to get there, and that takes into account the
Speaker 1: money philanthropy has, the money the private sector has. So
Speaker 1: if we're talking about and there's just another number for
Speaker 1: to put it in context, a gap of roughly two
Speaker 1: point five trillion per year in developing countries alone. So
Speaker 1: that doesn't even include where we are sitting right now.
Speaker 1: So we have to think innovatively. We have to think
Speaker 1: about alternative solutions, and we at the Rockefeller Foundation think
Speaker 1: that innovative finance is a big part of the answer.
Speaker 1: So how does that manifest itself? What does innovative finance
Speaker 1: do to help funds projects like smart power for rural development.
Speaker 1: So innovative finance represents a pretty expansive set of financing
Speaker 1: mechanisms that, in one way another are designed to either
Speaker 1: attract more money to development goals and and different programs
Speaker 1: and initiatives, or to take the money that's already in
Speaker 1: place and the new money that's coming in and make
Speaker 1: sure that it's more effectively deployed. Because I talked about
Speaker 1: the massive funding gap. That gap is there and we
Speaker 1: need to focus on it. At the same time, we
Speaker 1: also need to make sure that the way money is
Speaker 1: delivered is done in a more predictable way, in a
Speaker 1: more sustainable way, because if people you know, are working
Speaker 1: in this space, you have to know what's going to
Speaker 1: happen next year in terms of whether you're going to
Speaker 1: have the money or not. So you're really referring to
Speaker 1: of philanthropic efficiency, making sure that the money that is
Speaker 1: allocated is used appropriately and effectively for whatever the I
Speaker 1: will say, not just philanthropic funding, also what comes from
Speaker 1: the private sector, also what comes from the public sector.
Speaker 1: So pretty pretty broad and and you know, just to
Speaker 1: put context to what kind of financing mechanisms we're talking about,
Speaker 1: it's everything from insurance links, securities, to pay for performance
Speaker 1: debt structures to even micro texas. I'm Barry Ridholts. You're
Speaker 1: listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special
Speaker 1: guest today is Sadia Modsburg. She is the director of
Speaker 1: Innovation at the Rockefeller Foundation, and and let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about the foundation's mission. I'm gonna quote right
Speaker 1: off of the website to improve the well being of
Speaker 1: humanity around the world. That's a little broad. What what
Speaker 1: does it really mean in actuality, improve in the well
Speaker 1: being of humanity? It is indeed quite broad, and every
Speaker 1: time I say it, I almost kind of need to stop,
Speaker 1: take a breath, let it sink in, and then, you know,
Speaker 1: talk about what that actually means. So, the Rockefellow Foundation
Speaker 1: has been around for roughly a hundred and four years.
Speaker 1: The year I joined, we were celebrating our centennials, So
Speaker 1: the fact that we had been around for a hundred
Speaker 1: years and were reflected back on what we had achieved
Speaker 1: in those hundred years and what it had meant. We
Speaker 1: have always stayed true to the mission, which is to
Speaker 1: promote the well being of humanity. But what that means
Speaker 1: at any given point in time, of course, has shifted
Speaker 1: over the years, and it's shifted based on what we
Speaker 1: think the big challenges of our times have been and
Speaker 1: where we think that philanthropy has an important role to
Speaker 1: play in terms of stepping in, trying out new solutions,
Speaker 1: proving how they work, and then letting others step in
Speaker 1: and drive those forward. I would say, though, the three
Speaker 1: things that have remain the same over the hundred and
Speaker 1: four years. One is our focus on innovation, so really
Speaker 1: driving towards new thinking and new solutions. The second is
Speaker 1: more you know and and it's something if you read
Speaker 1: some of the letters written by John D. Rockefell in
Speaker 1: the early days that it comes out is this idea
Speaker 1: of scientific philanthropy, meaning what what's about trying to really
Speaker 1: understand what the core underlying drivers behind the challenge are.
Speaker 1: So instead of just throwing money at something and so
Speaker 1: here's money, you know, let's go alleviate the pain and
Speaker 1: suffering here, it's about really understanding what the fundamental issue is.
Speaker 1: So when they say when you say scientific philanthropy, you
Speaker 1: mean sort of a scientific methodology using an evidence based approach. Yes,
Speaker 1: to say, hey, these dollars are actually having resonance and
Speaker 1: having an effect, these not so much less focus on
Speaker 1: what's working. Both that, but also to use the data
Speaker 1: and to use the research to understand what the problem
Speaker 1: really is, where the problem really comes from. So when
Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out what the answer to that
Speaker 1: problem is, you're actually addressing the root causes of it.
Speaker 1: As opposed to just you know what comes to this effect.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like it's somewhat process oriented. Don't just
Speaker 1: identify a problem, find that fulk rum point that's the
Speaker 1: key to the problem. Right. That sounds quite fascinating. I
Speaker 1: assume you're a five percent foundation, meaning each year you
Speaker 1: give away five of of the four billion or so
Speaker 1: UM and your your portfolio offsets those that that donation.
Speaker 1: How do you prioritize where to focus your efforts again,
Speaker 1: improving humanity, improving the well being humanity a giant charge
Speaker 1: trying mission. How do you drill down and say, we
Speaker 1: want to focus on these areas and within these areas,
Speaker 1: this is the specific um issue we want to attack. So,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, we try to you know, really understand
Speaker 1: what we think the big challenges of our times aren't
Speaker 1: based in at set our strategy at any given point
Speaker 1: in time. That's the responsibility that the senior leadership team carries,
Speaker 1: as the responsibilities that our trustees carry as well. If
Speaker 1: we look at where we are at this point in
Speaker 1: time and where we have focused, we have two overarching
Speaker 1: goals as we call them. One is around resilience building,
Speaker 1: the other one is advancing inclusive economies and within that therefore,
Speaker 1: what we call issue areas um that we focus on.
Speaker 1: There's advanced health, revalue ecosystems, transform cities, and secure livelihoods. Now, now,
Speaker 1: having just said what these issue areas still brought issues,
Speaker 1: So that brings us back to how do you operationalize
Speaker 1: it on a day to day basis? How do you
Speaker 1: actually try to understand what's happening in those spaces. We
Speaker 1: have a strategic insights team that continuously monitors what's happening
Speaker 1: in those spaces and shapes different suggestions for areas where
Speaker 1: we could engage, and then we take those are years
Speaker 1: and have a conversation around you know, how pressing is
Speaker 1: the problem. And I'll be honest, in most cases when
Speaker 1: you look at it, nobody can come and argue the
Speaker 1: problem isn't pressing. They're they're terrible things happening around the world,
Speaker 1: you know, in our backyard and across the ocean as well.
Speaker 1: So it's about that, But then it's also about what
Speaker 1: we like to call looking at dynamism and potential for innovation.
Speaker 1: So with dynamism, what I mean is is there something
Speaker 1: happening at this point in time that makes it the
Speaker 1: right time for us as a foundation to go in
Speaker 1: and engage. Is it on the policy side, is their
Speaker 1: developments in the private sector that what we should be
Speaker 1: looking at and focused on. Is it something in civic society,
Speaker 1: some thing that gives an indication there's a momentum that
Speaker 1: we can build on and accelerate. And then of course
Speaker 1: there's the impact at scale. We're here, I mean, philanthropy
Speaker 1: is here to serve poor and vulnerable people around the world.
Speaker 1: That is our role, that is what we're focused on.
Speaker 1: So at the end of it, it comes down to
Speaker 1: our ability to have impact. So we're gonna talk more
Speaker 1: about resilience in a few minutes. Let's talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about um, the day to day and the prioritization.
Speaker 1: Do you look for low hanging fruit as the expression
Speaker 1: uh suggest, where where there's an immediate impact or are
Speaker 1: there occasional moonshots that hey, we don't know if this
Speaker 1: is going to be successful, but if it works, the
Speaker 1: impact is tremendous. So it's a both, it's it's that's
Speaker 1: what I was going to say. It's a fine balance,
Speaker 1: and it's both. And again, when our mission is so broad,
Speaker 1: our areas are so broad, if we're really doing our
Speaker 1: job well, we can't be going to the obvious solutions
Speaker 1: and funding the obvious things. But sometimes you need to
Speaker 1: do that too. Um. I mean, we think of our
Speaker 1: money as America's risk capital, where we can deploy it
Speaker 1: in ways where the private sector wouldn't be will too,
Speaker 1: because they maybe don't want to take on the risk.
Speaker 1: The public sector again may not be able to because
Speaker 1: either they don't have the resources available or they don't
Speaker 1: have the ability to take that risk. So we have
Speaker 1: a big responsibility in terms of what we do with
Speaker 1: that really precious privileged capital in terms of driving towards
Speaker 1: new solutions. I mean, and you talk about moonshots that
Speaker 1: you can look at it in many different ways. We
Speaker 1: talked about in a bit of finance earlier and one
Speaker 1: of the portfolios that that I oversee the Foundation is
Speaker 1: called zero Gap, and it is focused on the financing
Speaker 1: mechanisms and closing the funding gap within that. Right now,
Speaker 1: we're funding something called outbreaking epidemic insurance. Now, ten years ago,
Speaker 1: if you weren't to anybody in the insurance industry and said,
Speaker 1: you know, public health, you know there's a massive lack
Speaker 1: of funding. They are all these public health emergencies that
Speaker 1: come up time and time again, we don't have a
Speaker 1: good system in place to fund out how about insurance.
Speaker 1: Many of them would probably you know, have roll their
Speaker 1: eyes and say, yes, that's great. We run this business,
Speaker 1: you know, based on these things, and you know, good
Speaker 1: luck fiddling with that. Over in the philanthropic sector. I'm
Speaker 1: Barry Ridholts. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: My special guest today is Sadia Madsburg. She is the
Speaker 1: managing director of the Rockefeller Foundation, focusing on the Foundation's
Speaker 1: work on innovation. So let's talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: resilience as a public policy here in here in New
Speaker 1: York City and the surrounding region. Uh, the Superstorm Sandy
Speaker 1: was a giant mess that caused all sorts of problems
Speaker 1: in some ways outside of Katrina. It was the most
Speaker 1: expensive um storm, certainly on the East Coast. What can
Speaker 1: we as a city and a region do to become
Speaker 1: more resilient. So I was working for New York City
Speaker 1: at the time super Storm Sandy hit, and you're right,
Speaker 1: it was a massive disaster. It was a mess. It
Speaker 1: costs the local economies of the states that were hit
Speaker 1: by it a lot. The small and medium sized businesses
Speaker 1: were shut down for a while. The public infrastructure broke down,
Speaker 1: whether you're talking about subways or telecommunications infrastructure, um, electrical electrical.
Speaker 1: I live in the suburbs. We had no electricity for
Speaker 1: twelve days. If you would have asked me beforehand, yeah, hey,
Speaker 1: what are the odds that a storm is going to
Speaker 1: knock out electricity for two weeks? I would say, this
Speaker 1: is America. That shouldn't happen. Yeah, exactly. I mean I
Speaker 1: was living downtown Manhattan and you know I had to
Speaker 1: relocate to Midtown. That was the extent of you know,
Speaker 1: the suffering I I went through. But but no, it
Speaker 1: was a big shock to the system. And that really
Speaker 1: does bring forward this whole concept of resilience and what
Speaker 1: should we do, not just at a city level and
Speaker 1: a state level, but for countries and regions as well.
Speaker 1: At the Rockefeller Foundation, we talked about resil alliance as
Speaker 1: the capacity of individuals, communities, societies to withstand shocks when
Speaker 1: they happen and then bounce back from them faster as well.
Speaker 1: So it's not about trying to stop the disasters from
Speaker 1: happening and saying how do you put in place the systems,
Speaker 1: the solutions, the policies that will allow you to bounce
Speaker 1: back faster? Now have we done that? Because I know
Speaker 1: in the world of finance, we are notorious for experiencing
Speaker 1: something terrible and then forgetting about it as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: Have we forgotten about Superstorm Sandy or Katrina? Or have
Speaker 1: we taken steps to become more resilient as a as
Speaker 1: a geography. So I think in in the public realm um,
Speaker 1: there's this very broad understanding that you cannot just forget
Speaker 1: and pretend that it didn't happen. It's happening time and
Speaker 1: time again in different parts of this country and different
Speaker 1: parts of the world. So there is a very strong
Speaker 1: momentum and focus on saying, you know, let's let's get
Speaker 1: to this oceans. Part of it is also breaking away
Speaker 1: from the silos that we operate in. Don't think about
Speaker 1: you know this is this has to do about education,
Speaker 1: This has to do with infrastructure, this has to do
Speaker 1: with you know something else. You have to sometimes cut
Speaker 1: across the silos and say what are the right solutions
Speaker 1: you put in place? And I mean, I'd like to
Speaker 1: give an example again from our innovative finance portfolio of
Speaker 1: something we're funding currently which people would not normally associate
Speaker 1: with resilience effort, and it has to do with natural infrastructure.
Speaker 1: So by natural infrastructure, I mean oyster reefs, I mean
Speaker 1: coral reefs and you know marsh lands and coastal wetlands.
Speaker 1: They protect a natural barrier when it comes to storms.
Speaker 1: You know, they have done it time and time again.
Speaker 1: Their science out there that shows that, you know, a
Speaker 1: healthy coral leaf can absorb around of the energy of
Speaker 1: a wave that is massive. So you don't even have
Speaker 1: to go think, you know, let's build a massive sea
Speaker 1: wall or any you know, thing equivalent to that. How
Speaker 1: do you put in place mechanisms that can allow you
Speaker 1: to protect the natural environment we have today that is
Speaker 1: protecting us. So so what we're funding and we're working
Speaker 1: currently with the Nature Conservancy and they're partnering with Swiss
Speaker 1: re on it is to say, um, there's the meso
Speaker 1: American reef. It's the second largest reef in the world.
Speaker 1: It protects a lot of the local economy. When it
Speaker 1: comes to the Mexican Mexican tourism system, can you gather
Speaker 1: the hotel association and the local businesses that benefit from
Speaker 1: having a healthy reef get them to pay into a
Speaker 1: fund that invests in the maintenance of the reef but
Speaker 1: also bios catastrophe insurance on it, so when something terrible happens,
Speaker 1: one insurance pays out immediately, so you have the money
Speaker 1: in hand, build right away because you have to. And
Speaker 1: I didn't understand you know, the complexity of it, but
Speaker 1: a lot of it is picking it up at the
Speaker 1: right time, reattaching it so it can continue to go.
Speaker 1: It's you know, you can't come back in a month,
Speaker 1: two month, three months into it because then you're vulnerable
Speaker 1: to the you know, there are some little things I
Speaker 1: was I think a lot of people were shocked about
Speaker 1: with Sandy, and we haven't even gotten to Katrina shocked
Speaker 1: to learn that emergency generators are located in the basements
Speaker 1: of buildings, which assumes there's no flooding right stop and
Speaker 1: thinking about this was done twenty thirty years ago. People
Speaker 1: weren't really conceptualizing a wave coming over Manhattan, going down
Speaker 1: into the subway, going down into the basements of buildings,
Speaker 1: and basically rendering those emergency generators um unusable. But what
Speaker 1: you're talking about with reef building and oyster bed promotion.
Speaker 1: These are giant macro projects that are far beyond anyone business,
Speaker 1: probably anyone UM city or or municipality. It has to
Speaker 1: be part of a broader effort. I'm Barry Ridhults. You're
Speaker 1: listening to Masters and Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special
Speaker 1: guest today is Sadia Madsburg. She is the Director of
Speaker 1: Innovation at the Rockefeller Foundation, whose mission is to improve
Speaker 1: the well being of humanity around the world. So let's
Speaker 1: get into the nitty gritty of that. Uh, I'm ballparked.
Speaker 1: The foundations about four billion dollars? Is that slightly more
Speaker 1: than that? Slightly more than that? Um? How does the
Speaker 1: Foundation manage its money? Do they use in house managers?
Speaker 1: They use out outside managers? They use both. So we
Speaker 1: have our investment office that is led by our Chief
Speaker 1: Investment Officer, Donna Dean. She's a brilliant, very very smart
Speaker 1: woman who's been taking care of the money for us
Speaker 1: so that the rest of us on the program side
Speaker 1: have money to spend on unfulfilling our mission. Uh. It
Speaker 1: is managed externally. We have our team internally that sets
Speaker 1: you know, goals and along with the with our board
Speaker 1: and and us on which direction we want to be
Speaker 1: going in, and then they look for the right opportunities externally.
Speaker 1: So you target five percent a year to give out.
Speaker 1: That's everybody that's a tax exempt foundation uses uses that money.
Speaker 1: How our priorities set? Is it long term thinking and
Speaker 1: it's mapped out over years, or do you have the
Speaker 1: ability we reference the bowler earlier, do you have the
Speaker 1: ability to pivot when an emergency such as that pops up.
Speaker 1: So we try to do boats because we have to
Speaker 1: be invested in areas for the long term. You can't
Speaker 1: come up with solutions, you know, in the short term
Speaker 1: and say, you know, we saw for it, let's go
Speaker 1: on the next, onto the next one. So we have
Speaker 1: some of it dedicated towards our longer term initiatives and programs.
Speaker 1: One example of that is what we call yield wise.
Speaker 1: It's focused on reducing post harfice lass in agricultural food
Speaker 1: chain in Africa. It's something we yield loss yield wise.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so it's focused on reducing post harvest loss.
Speaker 1: So from the time a small hold of farmer harvests
Speaker 1: it till the time it gets to a market where
Speaker 1: you can still sell it. There's a big loss that
Speaker 1: happens in there, meaning just natural attrition rot or what
Speaker 1: what is it that it's a combination of that. So um.
Speaker 1: One of the crops that we're looking at is called cassava.
Speaker 1: It's something that you have to get to the market
Speaker 1: quickly and process very quick to melon and it's um
Speaker 1: a decent size and so I you know, for me,
Speaker 1: it's more about how do you want link it to
Speaker 1: the local markets in a more efficient way quickly And
Speaker 1: sometimes technology plays a role, or processing close to where
Speaker 1: you're harvesting plays a role. Uh. Sometimes it's about having
Speaker 1: in place agreements when it comes to bulk purchase with
Speaker 1: big you know, food chains, where you know there's somebody
Speaker 1: there to take it off your hands and know what
Speaker 1: to do with it. Um. So it's a number of
Speaker 1: different things that come into play in terms of how
Speaker 1: you can work towards reducing food loss. So when I
Speaker 1: when I'm I'm listening to the maintaining the yield and
Speaker 1: dealing with the loss, that sounds like you're trying to
Speaker 1: attack two things. One is poverty in the Third World
Speaker 1: by by allowing farmers to generate a better economic return.
Speaker 1: But that also applies towards food scarcity and starvation. If
Speaker 1: you're getting a better yield, then you have less loss.
Speaker 1: That just means is that much more food around, right?
Speaker 1: I mean it has to do with food security definitely.
Speaker 1: UM And actually, I mean what I didn't mention was
Speaker 1: the efforts that we're doing here in the US UM
Speaker 1: within that initiative aren't focused on reducing harvest loss, but
Speaker 1: it's about consumer waste. There's a lot of food that
Speaker 1: you know comes into grocery stores, comes into your fridge,
Speaker 1: my fridge that never gets consumed that we end up
Speaker 1: throwing out. So again, more to say, we look at
Speaker 1: what the challenges were and then figure out what we
Speaker 1: think the appropriate response would be. So let's let's talk
Speaker 1: about that, because I know I'm the person who takes
Speaker 1: the garbage out in the house and my wife is
Speaker 1: always wait a second and going through the fridge and
Speaker 1: tossing out whatever is turns or the tomatoes. So what
Speaker 1: can you do in the United States to reduce And
Speaker 1: it's the if memory serves it's massive. It's like fift
Speaker 1: of the farmed food is wasted. Is that is that
Speaker 1: a fair number? So I don't know the exact percentage,
Speaker 1: but it is a really, really significant amount. Yes, uh
Speaker 1: so we're in the process of deciding where to go
Speaker 1: with it. Part of it has to do with creating
Speaker 1: alternative markets. Right, what is waste to you may not
Speaker 1: be waste to somebody else. Um. I don't know how
Speaker 1: things were when you were growing up in your house
Speaker 1: and what kind of food culture there was around it.
Speaker 1: But in the old days, you used to take a
Speaker 1: lot of the things that you would consider close to
Speaker 1: expiration and you would make stock out of it, right,
Speaker 1: And you would make stock and cook it right, and
Speaker 1: you could put it in the freezer. It tastes delicious.
Speaker 1: You can use it, you know, for time and time again.
Speaker 1: But and then you can, you know, do other things.
Speaker 1: You can donate it to local organizations that try to
Speaker 1: bring food to people that don't currently have food. So
Speaker 1: part of it is behavioral. Part of it has to
Speaker 1: do with the market dynamics, and I think you have
Speaker 1: to work on both hand. And I recall reading not
Speaker 1: too long ago about the market for quote unquote ugly fruit, yes,
Speaker 1: which I find fascinating that, Hey, this tomato was ugly,
Speaker 1: this apple isn't pretty, but it's perfectly edible. And there
Speaker 1: are people who are more than happy to buy it
Speaker 1: at a substantial discount. And that's an economic solution to one.
Speaker 1: I mean not just that very if you go to
Speaker 1: any of the farmers markets around here. I live close
Speaker 1: to Union Square and I go so I go there often.
Speaker 1: And the food isn't set up to look beautiful and
Speaker 1: well shaped and the same proportions and the same sizes
Speaker 1: and all that. That is just nature. That's you know,
Speaker 1: that's part of the charm of the farmers market. This
Speaker 1: isn't factory farmed. Every tomato is perfectly read, perfectly round.
Speaker 1: Everything looks like it was recently grown without a lot
Speaker 1: of chemicals that I think always thought that was half
Speaker 1: the appeal. So we're talking about some of the things
Speaker 1: that money can do. What are some of the things
Speaker 1: that money can't do, or at least can't do by itself. Meaning,
Speaker 1: how do you decide we can only go so far
Speaker 1: with this project? And there needs to be a lot
Speaker 1: more education and a lot more persuasion of people before
Speaker 1: they recognize and funds a project. If that makes any sense.
Speaker 1: It does, um, I think the most stark example of
Speaker 1: what money can't fix or philanthropy can't fix today is
Speaker 1: the Syrian crisis. Um If you look at it, it's
Speaker 1: a crisis that started, as you know, small protests escalated
Speaker 1: into a full blown um civil war. Now you're a conflict,
Speaker 1: and now you're at a point where you know there
Speaker 1: there is a cease fire. But I've read one of
Speaker 1: the headlines in New York Times saying, you know, the
Speaker 1: parties were quarreling about how to move forward. In the
Speaker 1: span of those five years, you have a quarter of
Speaker 1: a million people that have died. You have eleven million
Speaker 1: people that have been displaced from their homes, some of
Speaker 1: them within Syria, but a significant amount of them left
Speaker 1: Syria as well, state went to neighboring countries. Jordan's I
Speaker 1: was Jordan recently. And then it's amazing what capacity that
Speaker 1: country has had to take in refugees time and time again,
Speaker 1: and the treat them with decency and dignity. But Lebanon
Speaker 1: as an example, Jordan as an example. There even your
Speaker 1: refugee is going to Iraq. I mean, who would have thought,
Speaker 1: but you know, somebody would want to go to Iraq
Speaker 1: as a refugee to get away from what's bad. And
Speaker 1: then I got you know, Turkey, and then I started
Speaker 1: getting closer to my old home, which is Europe, and
Speaker 1: it's been front and center of the policy debate in Europe,
Speaker 1: in the US, in Australia, and you know, all other
Speaker 1: parts well impacted. Brexit might have an impact on the
Speaker 1: election here. I I think people underestimate how significant the
Speaker 1: issue in Syria was as a global um affectation. It's
Speaker 1: really driven all sorts of issues around the world. So
Speaker 1: if I take that as an example, there's no amount
Speaker 1: of money that I could have given us a grant
Speaker 1: that would have fixed the core of that problem. Now
Speaker 1: there are things that we can do, we should be doing,
Speaker 1: and we are trying to do around How do you
Speaker 1: then take the people that are, if affected by the conflict,
Speaker 1: refugees and try to create more inclusive societies that they
Speaker 1: can be a part of to actually, you know, allow
Speaker 1: them to come back into what could be a normal
Speaker 1: life away from what what they left behind. That's quite
Speaker 1: that's quite astonishing. So when you pick a specific issue
Speaker 1: to focus on, obviously one one question is can we
Speaker 1: have an impact? And if the issue is perhaps not,
Speaker 1: we there's not enough money in the world to resolve
Speaker 1: this that that becomes a diplomacy and governmental challenge. But
Speaker 1: when you find something that you believe your approach and
Speaker 1: your um cash can actually impact, how do you go
Speaker 1: about measuring that impact? How can you determine how effective
Speaker 1: a given program is, both both when you're evaluating against
Speaker 1: other programs you're running or deciding, hey, we're really seeing
Speaker 1: residents here, let's put a greater refer into this or not.
Speaker 1: Do you manage just like an actual portfolio. So we
Speaker 1: do have a very strong focus on what we call monitoring,
Speaker 1: which is doing it as the program is implemented, and
Speaker 1: then evaluation, which is the actual outcomes of the program
Speaker 1: once it has been implemented. One because we want to
Speaker 1: make sure that the impact we want to have on
Speaker 1: the life of pinvulnerable people is actually achieved, but to
Speaker 1: also so we can figure out whether the starting point
Speaker 1: that we had for when we started the program was
Speaker 1: the right one or whether we need to pivot along
Speaker 1: the way. We have been speaking with Sadia Modsburg of
Speaker 1: the Rockefeller Foundation. If you want more information on the foundation,
Speaker 1: you could go to their website just google Rockefeller Foundation,
Speaker 1: or go to Rockfeller is it Rockfellow Foundation dot org?
Speaker 1: Is that right? Um. If you enjoy this conversation, be
Speaker 1: sure and stick around for the podcast extras, where we
Speaker 1: keep the tape rolling and talk about all things philanthropic.
Speaker 1: Check out my daily column on Bloomberg View dot com
Speaker 1: or follow me on Twitter at rit Halts. I'm Barry
Speaker 1: rit Halts, Human listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. I don't know why I do that.
Speaker 1: I do that every time, Sadia, thank you much so
Speaker 1: much for doing this. I find the topic of how
Speaker 1: great pools of wealth is subsequently used in endowments and
Speaker 1: foundations for whatever the founding principle um goal was, Even
Speaker 1: when it's something as broad as making humanity, improving the
Speaker 1: well being of humanity, something like that, it's fascinating because
Speaker 1: you usually don't get to see the nuts and bolts
Speaker 1: of how that's done. And what I find really interesting
Speaker 1: about the Rockefell Foundation, I think people's general sense of
Speaker 1: foundations are they're throwing money at problems, and and everything
Speaker 1: you've described is much more to get Biblical teach a
Speaker 1: person of fish rather than give them a fish. It's
Speaker 1: identifying where the problem is and looking for a solution
Speaker 1: where there's some subsequent ongoing economic incentive to keep the
Speaker 1: solution going. And that's that's really quite fascinating to me. Um,
Speaker 1: I imagine your day to day work must be really interesting.
Speaker 1: It really is that it keeps me on my tiptoes.
Speaker 1: So when I was at the point of deciding whether
Speaker 1: or not to join you know what I would broadly
Speaker 1: characterize as the social sector of the development sector, I
Speaker 1: actually went around and talked to a lot of people
Speaker 1: and I thought, I don't want to just jump the
Speaker 1: fans because I think it's going to be better on
Speaker 1: the other side. Let me get a realistic feel for
Speaker 1: what's happening. And it was an interesting time where, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people said, no, no, no, if you
Speaker 1: really want to make a difference, you know, find one
Speaker 1: of the smaller startups and go work there. Don't go
Speaker 1: in philanthropy. There's said in their ways and what have
Speaker 1: they done. And what I've come to realize and and
Speaker 1: really respect about the place that I work in, about
Speaker 1: the field of philanthropy at large, is, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not about hacking. You know, global poverty, you can't do that.
Speaker 1: The problems that there's no silver bullets, there is none
Speaker 1: of that and you know this idea, you can do
Speaker 1: an app and you know everything will be fine. No,
Speaker 1: you have to have respect for the complexity of the
Speaker 1: problem and then you have to just go at it.
Speaker 1: And my days are fascinating. I mean, you can start
Speaker 1: with talking about infrastructure finance, and then you know, talk
Speaker 1: about a humanitarian crisis and rhythm refugee crisis, and from
Speaker 1: there will go on to natural disasters in Africa and
Speaker 1: how to think about the solutions there. So there's never
Speaker 1: a dull moment I can imagine. Um, I was going
Speaker 1: to ask you. We didn't get to to this question earlier.
Speaker 1: I and I don't know if this is the focus
Speaker 1: of the Rockefeller Foundation, but what can a foundation do
Speaker 1: about global or domestic inequality? Is that an issue that
Speaker 1: comes up. So one of our two goals is about
Speaker 1: advancing inclusive economy. So we we talk about it and
Speaker 1: think of it as inclusion that everybody gets to participate
Speaker 1: in the economic bounty of a given so not just economically,
Speaker 1: but socially as well, because you can't distinguish one from
Speaker 1: the other. If you're a member of society, you want
Speaker 1: people to be integrated on the social side, cultural side.
Speaker 1: You know, economic side, give them the same opportunities and
Speaker 1: treat them as equals. And I think philanthropy has a
Speaker 1: role to play. One of the programs and you mentioned
Speaker 1: it earlier that we're funding is Smart Powerful Rural Development.
Speaker 1: It is an effort focused on trying out testing new
Speaker 1: sustainable business models that drive like trification and economic development
Speaker 1: of rural villages in India. That's about how do you
Speaker 1: take somebody who's currently completely excluded from what's happening and
Speaker 1: try to bring them into the economy, but do it
Speaker 1: in a way where it's actually sustainable. Really that that's
Speaker 1: quite ah, that's quite interesting. A buddy of mine is
Speaker 1: working on this project that it's called Helical something I'm
Speaker 1: drawing a blank on it. They essentially take what is
Speaker 1: a a rail car or you know, the standard shipping
Speaker 1: containers and they converted so you could basically air drop
Speaker 1: it anywhere. The doors open it up, solar panels come
Speaker 1: out to the top. You you purify water, you have
Speaker 1: a satellite uplink for communication. You are able to grow
Speaker 1: all sorts of food stock for for um, cattle and
Speaker 1: sheep and everything. And it's the idea is you can
Speaker 1: instantly in the response of let's say a Katrina or
Speaker 1: some other emergency. You could instantly instant civilization with this
Speaker 1: one thing. It's really quite that is fascinating. You know.
Speaker 1: It's recently um in Denmark and I was visiting my dad,
Speaker 1: who spends part of his time in Denmark now a
Speaker 1: lot of it in Pakistan, and he was telling me
Speaker 1: how he has a solar panel installed back home in
Speaker 1: the village in Pakistan because there's so much load shedding
Speaker 1: that happens. And I thought, wait, it's like you just
Speaker 1: had it installed yourself, and he said, yes, it's about
Speaker 1: It was like, it was like, do you have a
Speaker 1: battery for it? And he looked at me as if
Speaker 1: I was an idiot, and of course I have a
Speaker 1: What are you gonna do with it? You know? How
Speaker 1: do you get power at night? It's amazing how this
Speaker 1: sort of decentralization. Remember when you look at let's say
Speaker 1: telecommunications and a lot of parts of the world. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a big deal for the United States to wire
Speaker 1: phones to everybody, and a lot of parts of the
Speaker 1: world just skipped over that went right to cellular I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised to see something very very similar happening
Speaker 1: with electrical distribution. They're gonna skip over that centralized authority
Speaker 1: and say, hey, it's especially today panels are so efficient, So,
Speaker 1: I mean, they still have a way to go, but
Speaker 1: they're a tenth of what they were. I think that
Speaker 1: that you need on gred and offward situations to go
Speaker 1: hand in hand. But but but I think they have
Speaker 1: a big role to play. I mean, you mentioned decentralization.
Speaker 1: Another interesting thing that we're funding right now is and
Speaker 1: it's very different from electrification, where it goes back to
Speaker 1: the topic of inclusion is the use of blockchain technology
Speaker 1: to create economic identities for displaced people. Now, that sounds
Speaker 1: so in other words, Syrian refugees, everybody gets a unique identifier,
Speaker 1: and that blockchain is a way that you can validate
Speaker 1: who they are. So not just that, and it's more
Speaker 1: about what it can do for the development organized less
Speaker 1: about what it can do for the development organizations, and
Speaker 1: more about the individual. Today, if you're displaced from home,
Speaker 1: you know, you may have left under god awful circumstances,
Speaker 1: you may have some form of identification or not. You
Speaker 1: end up in a camp, you get a number and
Speaker 1: that's quote unquote your identity. But and then you know,
Speaker 1: when you go from one place to another, you may
Speaker 1: keep it, you may not, you may get a new one.
Speaker 1: There's probably no record, collective record of what you've done
Speaker 1: along the way. So what blockchain can allow you to do?
Speaker 1: And we're still testing it, so so let's see what
Speaker 1: the results are. It can allow you to record along
Speaker 1: the way the different interactions. You have to say, you're
Speaker 1: living in Jordan's not in a camp. You know the
Speaker 1: refugees there live outside the camps. You get a cash
Speaker 1: transfer from U n h c R regularly, right, Um,
Speaker 1: You have a cousin that lives in Europe who sends
Speaker 1: you money, remittances regular on a regular basis. You have
Speaker 1: some small job that you've taken somewhere, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: part time, maybe something. You have money that comes from.
Speaker 1: Imagine if you had one place where all those interactions
Speaker 1: could be recorded. So at some point in time you
Speaker 1: want to start your own business and you go to
Speaker 1: the bank and say I would like to take out
Speaker 1: a loan, They wouldn't look at you and say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you are just a person who has no
Speaker 1: record of showing what your credit worthiness is or isn't
Speaker 1: you actually have the ability yourself as an individual to
Speaker 1: choose how much you want to share with the institutional
Speaker 1: and then figure out alternative ways of getting integrated into
Speaker 1: the new home that you found. That that's fascinating, that
Speaker 1: that may be the best single usage of blockchain i've
Speaker 1: heard to date. That that's really quite interesting. So I know,
Speaker 1: I only have you here for another fifteen twenty minutes,
Speaker 1: and I have a bunch of questions I want to Uh,
Speaker 1: I wanna go over. Let me just go to one
Speaker 1: that I know I missed earlier. You mentioned about working
Speaker 1: with the private sector. How do you integrate what you
Speaker 1: do with both state and federal governments, local and federal governments, um,
Speaker 1: other philanthropy as well as the private sector. How does
Speaker 1: that look when a project is moving forward? Right? So,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, one of the core principles that
Speaker 1: we've always had is about building relationships and partnerships because
Speaker 1: we realized that we never alone can come up with
Speaker 1: the with the answer and then drive it forward. Now,
Speaker 1: that can take many different shapes and forms. Sometimes it
Speaker 1: is the public sector, either the federal level or state
Speaker 1: or national um sorry, state or local that we partner
Speaker 1: with and then bring in the private sector, and sometimes
Speaker 1: it may just be with the private sector. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'll give you one example of a place where we
Speaker 1: we've collaborated quite well across the board, and it goes
Speaker 1: back to the to the finance work as well. UM
Speaker 1: it's called New York City Housing Acquisition Fund, and this
Speaker 1: was around ten ten years ago, more than ten years now,
Speaker 1: where we came to get there with a number of
Speaker 1: different philanthropies, the City of New York, and a number
Speaker 1: of big banks to create this fund that was targeting, um,
Speaker 1: creating more affordable housing units here in the city. You
Speaker 1: know what the real estate market here looks like. You
Speaker 1: know how tough it can be to get loans to
Speaker 1: to do affordable housing. So what we did was, so
Speaker 1: there's Battery Park City along with a number of different foundations,
Speaker 1: we created a guarantee fund. At the back of that,
Speaker 1: we attracted around two hundred million from big banks. So
Speaker 1: you have the likes of JP Morgan City, Morgan Stanley,
Speaker 1: many of them or most of them that put money
Speaker 1: into it. Now, we couldn't have done that alone. The
Speaker 1: banks wouldn't have ventured into it because they saw it
Speaker 1: potentially as a risky proposition and the city couldn't have
Speaker 1: done it alone. And so what did that end up funding?
Speaker 1: So they have to date deployed over three hundred million
Speaker 1: UM and invested in either the preservation or the creation
Speaker 1: of more than ten ten house affordable housing units here
Speaker 1: in the city. And that's in down in Battery Park alone.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's all over the city. And they continue
Speaker 1: the work. The fund still exists. That that's quite that's
Speaker 1: quite fascinating. You know, I wanted to ask you a
Speaker 1: question personally. So you're you're born in Copenhagen or born
Speaker 1: in Denmark? Is that right? And so you you grew
Speaker 1: up there? You do a semester abroad UM at Boston
Speaker 1: College and at George Washington for undergraduate and graduate. How
Speaker 1: challenging was the decision to say, um, I'm gonna come
Speaker 1: work in America. By all the annual UM surveys, Denmark
Speaker 1: is considered one of the happiest countries in the world.
Speaker 1: How do you decide to I mean, do you just
Speaker 1: not like bicycles? What makes you? Every I've been to Dencark.
Speaker 1: I've been to Copenhagen twice and the one thing everybody
Speaker 1: tells you is look both ways. Pretty cross the street
Speaker 1: you're gonna get rund of a bike by schools. And
Speaker 1: it's so true. It's I've never seen anything. Forget Portland,
Speaker 1: Seattle of San Francisco, that is a bicycle city. It
Speaker 1: sure is. And you know it's a dangerous endeavor to
Speaker 1: drive in the city. You're here where it's dangerous to bike,
Speaker 1: and everyone's exactly there as a as a as a
Speaker 1: car driver. It's like you're surrounded by bikes. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: So I I mean you mentioned, you know, my being
Speaker 1: born in Denmark. I was. Both my parents were from Pakistan.
Speaker 1: They had moved there back in the sixties, and as
Speaker 1: a result of a lot of different family decisions, I
Speaker 1: ended up moving and living in Pakistan for a long
Speaker 1: time as well. So yes, I did my basic elementary
Speaker 1: schooling in Pakistan. I lived there for nine years, then
Speaker 1: moved back to Denmark. Um was that culture shock going
Speaker 1: back and forth like that. So I mean, if you
Speaker 1: take kind of you know, a spectrum, you could put
Speaker 1: Pakistan at one end and you'd put Denmark at the
Speaker 1: exact Visit it right, Boisan is loud, it's colorful, it's messy,
Speaker 1: it's completely it's completely unorganized, and then Denmark, on the
Speaker 1: other hand, is calm. It's you know, very black and
Speaker 1: white and gray, and it's it has a you know,
Speaker 1: very different field to it. I grew up in both worlds.
Speaker 1: I grew up in both worlds when I was living
Speaker 1: in Denmark. I grew up in both worlds when I
Speaker 1: was living in Pakistan and visiting Denmark. Um. So for me,
Speaker 1: I don't see the culture shock. I can start a
Speaker 1: thought in my head in Danish and finish it in
Speaker 1: Urdu and then say it in English. That is just
Speaker 1: how you know what my life was like. In terms
Speaker 1: of moving to the U S. I'd say yes, I
Speaker 1: lived in Boston for half a year, and then I
Speaker 1: lived in d C for a year while I was studying,
Speaker 1: and then when I was at McKenzie, I did um,
Speaker 1: I moved over to your New Jersey office. Lived in
Speaker 1: New York, but did that for a year. And the US,
Speaker 1: the U S. East Coast has always had a special
Speaker 1: place in my heart. So my husband and I we
Speaker 1: moved here eight years ago because we were getting restless
Speaker 1: in Denmark. I was getting restless in Denmark and New
Speaker 1: York has always felt like home right. A lot of energy,
Speaker 1: a lot of dynamism, a lot of things going on here,
Speaker 1: a lot of messiness, lots of noise. Yes, so it's
Speaker 1: a little bit of of all the world. Exactly, very interesting.
Speaker 1: So let's jump to some of my favorite questions. I
Speaker 1: asked these of all my guests. Um, we talked about
Speaker 1: what you did before you started working? Who were some
Speaker 1: started working at a Rockefell, or who are some of
Speaker 1: your early mentors. So I think it's only now that
Speaker 1: I've come to think of them as my mentors. If
Speaker 1: you'd ask me this question twenty years ago, I wouldn't have.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of the women in my family. I
Speaker 1: grew up in a very patriarchal society, whether that was
Speaker 1: you know, in our house in Denmark, or whether it
Speaker 1: was in Pakistan, and in Pakistan I assume as patriarch
Speaker 1: called Denmark also, No, well, a lot of that culture
Speaker 1: from Pakistan moved over with my family to Denmark. So
Speaker 1: so no, not wrought a Daniel society. It's the opposite.
Speaker 1: But if you look at it, I've I've drawn inspiration
Speaker 1: from many that you know found their own way forward,
Speaker 1: whether that was my aunt who raised her own kids
Speaker 1: the way she wanted to after her husband passed away,
Speaker 1: or my mother who was, you know, a very successful doctor,
Speaker 1: or some of my cousins who broke away from tradition
Speaker 1: and did what they wanted to do, um, which was
Speaker 1: against expectations. On the other side, I would also say,
Speaker 1: in the more traditional sense, some of the directors that
Speaker 1: I worked with when I started at McKenzie um ages
Speaker 1: Ago one in particular. I remember it was one of
Speaker 1: my first projects. I was the junior associate on the team.
Speaker 1: We went in seated there with the CEO and so on,
Speaker 1: and the CEO asked a question and the director turned
Speaker 1: around and pointed to me, and he said, well, she
Speaker 1: did the work, why don't we just ask her? And
Speaker 1: it was just I mean, it showed me that it's
Speaker 1: about your ideas and what you have to offer and
Speaker 1: not rank um that matters in the world. And he
Speaker 1: showed that by example, and he gave me the confidence. Now,
Speaker 1: if the answer to this question hadn't been good, I'm
Speaker 1: sure he wouldn't have given me the same opportunity again UM,
Speaker 1: But that did set the tone for how I've approached
Speaker 1: a lot of things in my career since. Care to
Speaker 1: share the name Michael, help you, Michael, help you, help you?
Speaker 1: So local Danish person. Yes, And so let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about what people influenced your approach to philanthropy,
Speaker 1: who has affected how you look at the world of
Speaker 1: affecting change for the betterment of mankind. So this may
Speaker 1: sound a little bit cliche, but this was ages ago.
Speaker 1: I was still in the private sector. I was getting
Speaker 1: on a plane to go to some clients somewhere and
Speaker 1: I had a magazine UM that had an interview with
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton. And I know it's not the popular thing
Speaker 1: to say these days and talk about the Clinton Foundation,
Speaker 1: but I talked about some of the work where it
Speaker 1: laid out some of the work that they were doing
Speaker 1: in Africa around medicine for HIV n A. So talked
Speaker 1: about how they had brought together different players from the
Speaker 1: private sector to you know, reset the price off those
Speaker 1: medicines in that part of the world, and how they've
Speaker 1: done it through something called advanced market commitments. And to me,
Speaker 1: that was completely fascinating that, you know, and I hadn't
Speaker 1: thought of philanthropy in those terms. I thought about it
Speaker 1: in the more traditional You just give money and then
Speaker 1: you wait for something good to happen Um the other person,
Speaker 1: and this is more around our zero gap And in
Speaker 1: a bit of finance work I met he used to
Speaker 1: be the former Treasurer of the World Bank. His name
Speaker 1: is Kenneth lay Um, and he was the one who
Speaker 1: designed the very first green bond. Now when we talk
Speaker 1: about green bonds and all the good and bad things
Speaker 1: that have come with it, you know, it doesn't get
Speaker 1: associated with the person. But you know, I've had many
Speaker 1: conversations with him since and he keeps going at the
Speaker 1: point and I completely agree with him, and it's it's
Speaker 1: influenced my approach as well, which is, you know, take
Speaker 1: philanthropic funding to create new solutions that are sustainable instead
Speaker 1: of putting philanthropic funding forward as concessionaire capital, cationary capital.
Speaker 1: That's quite interesting them that that's really quite quite fascinating,
Speaker 1: And it's so easy to get wrapped up, especially in
Speaker 1: the last election, with some of the political criticisms of
Speaker 1: various foundations. When you look at what the Clinton Foundation
Speaker 1: itself has actually accomplished. They've performed a lot of extract
Speaker 1: the politics, They've performed a lot of good and that
Speaker 1: gets lost in the political debate. So I don't I
Speaker 1: don't think what you're saying is especially controversial. You just
Speaker 1: have to sometimes ignore all of the craziness around around
Speaker 1: US elections. That has to so, as a someone who
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time overseas, how do you look
Speaker 1: at US? I mean, do you I think our elections
Speaker 1: are insane? I can't imagine someone who didn't grow up here.
Speaker 1: You know, you look at the UK their elections or
Speaker 1: they seem to last a month and a half and
Speaker 1: it's done. This is like a never ending at least
Speaker 1: for this one was two years. Just someone who's far
Speaker 1: and born but living in New York look at this
Speaker 1: and say, what are you people doing? This is a
Speaker 1: giant waste of energy, um verry. You forget that I
Speaker 1: also grew up in Pakistan. So if I take so
Speaker 1: an insane electoral process is in a constant state of elections.
Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, until recently, I think we've
Speaker 1: had a very long period where none of the elected
Speaker 1: governments had finished their attemp before there was a new election.
Speaker 1: How does it compare to the way self governance takes
Speaker 1: place in in Denmark? So Denmark is very buttoned up,
Speaker 1: it's very focus. From the time you announced an election
Speaker 1: to the time the election happens. You're talking about weeks.
Speaker 1: You know, there isn't any after this election, especially. Um,
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about books. People always ask,
Speaker 1: always say to me, I'm curious as to what favorite
Speaker 1: books your guests have so related to philanthropy, finance, fiction, nonfiction.
Speaker 1: What sort of books do you really enjoy? So, Um,
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of my time reading white papers
Speaker 1: and such reports and those aside. I know, I know. Actually,
Speaker 1: my my seven year old daughter is really into Harry
Speaker 1: Potter these and you know, once in a while when
Speaker 1: she sees me with an actual book, she will come
Speaker 1: over and she was like, how long is that book?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, three pages, doesn't matter. I just read
Speaker 1: seven hundred pages. You can do this. So she's looking
Speaker 1: down and oh, yeah, I get shamed by my daughter.
Speaker 1: But to mention a couple of interesting ones I've I've
Speaker 1: read recently, Um, there's a fascinating book called Today We
Speaker 1: Drop Bombs, Tomorrow We Build Bridges, and it traces kind
Speaker 1: of the history of what has happened in the humanitarian
Speaker 1: space since the beginning of the Afran War, post war reconstruction,
Speaker 1: and no, not so much about post war reconstruction. It's
Speaker 1: about how our humanitarian agenda has been brought closer and
Speaker 1: closer to our military priorities. Really, so, humanitarian organizations have
Speaker 1: always worked on the principle of neutrality. You know, you
Speaker 1: go where the need is great as you do what's
Speaker 1: needed to be done. It's not about politics. It's just
Speaker 1: about helping the change that has changed in many ways.
Speaker 1: You should read the book. It's it's a fascinating recounter
Speaker 1: Peter gil Um. It's about what happened in Afghanistan. What
Speaker 1: has you know, happened since in other parts of the
Speaker 1: world as well, where NGOs to a large extent are
Speaker 1: dependent on funding from the governments and if the governments
Speaker 1: want them, you know, to go to certain part off,
Speaker 1: say a country, to perform their work there. Sometimes you
Speaker 1: don't really have an influence over that. So if you
Speaker 1: look at where the bulk of the foreign aid went
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, it went to the places where there was
Speaker 1: also the biggest military presence. Quite fascinating. Give me another
Speaker 1: book if you have. I just started reading it. Strangers
Speaker 1: at the Door. It is it looks at the moral
Speaker 1: crisis brought upon by you know, the massive refugee crisis.
Speaker 1: It kind of argues that, you know, it's it's a
Speaker 1: challenge that cuts across borders, and we are all dependent
Speaker 1: on each other define the right solutions. So taking a
Speaker 1: more protectionist approach, um isn't the way forward. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's that sounds fascinating any and then I can always
Speaker 1: recommend some research papers if if you're interested, I'll pass
Speaker 1: listen everybody. I would imagine half the listeners to this
Speaker 1: been a lot of time reading and finance and other
Speaker 1: such UM related papers, and the question always comes up,
Speaker 1: is I want to put this aside? Give me something
Speaker 1: either fiction or nonfiction, biography or something else. I can't
Speaker 1: tell you how often the question comes up. UM. So
Speaker 1: those are two good recommendations. Well, we'll look into that.
Speaker 1: So since you joined UM the Rockefeller Foundation, how have
Speaker 1: you seen the industry changed? Meaning how is philanthropy in
Speaker 1: the midst of adapting to the modern world. So in
Speaker 1: the last four years a lot has changed. I think
Speaker 1: more filmthropic money with big names has come in. Zukobug
Speaker 1: Chan initiative is just an example of that. I guess
Speaker 1: that's good for the broader field in terms of more
Speaker 1: people focusing on the things that that we focus on.
Speaker 1: UM I think there's been a clear recognition of the
Speaker 1: role of private sector in getting to solutions, and I
Speaker 1: think the work around climate change and the involvement of
Speaker 1: the business community in that largely speaks to it. I
Speaker 1: think there's also been more of a recognition of the
Speaker 1: interdependence and problems cutting across boundaries than before. I think
Speaker 1: climate change again is part of it. You can't as
Speaker 1: one country you just solve it. You're dependent on every
Speaker 1: other country around you. Global migration is another example of that,
Speaker 1: and then the big backlash against globalization that has come
Speaker 1: to the forefront is affecting a lot of them. What
Speaker 1: about big data? Is big data impacting philanthropy the way
Speaker 1: it is impacting the private sector. So it is, and
Speaker 1: we do try to build solutions around it, but it's
Speaker 1: it's again about having context for that data, understanding what
Speaker 1: it means and what you need to do, instead of
Speaker 1: blindly following it. So I'm down to my last two
Speaker 1: and very favorite questions. So if a millennial came to you,
Speaker 1: someone who just duated college and said I'm interested in
Speaker 1: a career in philanthropy, what sort of advice would you
Speaker 1: give them. I would say one thing, which is have
Speaker 1: respect for the problems. It's something that we were talking
Speaker 1: about earlier. These are complex, messy problems. You have to
Speaker 1: have respect for them. You have to really understand them
Speaker 1: before you start jumping to solutions. There are no quick
Speaker 1: fixes around here, you you know. Uh. The other thing
Speaker 1: I would say is you better buck up because you're
Speaker 1: going to get knocked down many, many, many times. And
Speaker 1: that is part of working in this space. You try
Speaker 1: many things before you get to the one that really works.
Speaker 1: So be willing able to just jump in there and
Speaker 1: and keep going at it. You have to be resilient.
Speaker 1: And yes, yes, very much, so thank you for that plug.
Speaker 1: And and our last question, what is it that you
Speaker 1: know about the world of philanthropy today that you wish
Speaker 1: you knew ten plus years ago when you started. I
Speaker 1: wish I knew how hard it would be to give
Speaker 1: away money. Really it is really really difficult. So with
Speaker 1: all the other jobs I had before coming here, including
Speaker 1: city government, it was about you know, I have this idea,
Speaker 1: and where do I get the money from and what
Speaker 1: do I do? And then with this job, I was like,
Speaker 1: this is realiant. Now I'm the one who has the
Speaker 1: money and I get to have the conversations about where
Speaker 1: to give the ideas. It is so difficult because at
Speaker 1: the core of it, our responsibility is to poor and
Speaker 1: vulnerable people. It's precious dollars. It cannot be squandered. And
Speaker 1: even though when we take risks, they're calculated risk. I
Speaker 1: end with one thing. So David Rockefeller Jr. Used to
Speaker 1: be on our board. He just retired last year after
Speaker 1: his term was up. And he's a lovely man, very passionate.
Speaker 1: Every time we had our board meetings, you know, got
Speaker 1: a chance to meet him, he would say, what are
Speaker 1: you working on right now? That excites you the most?
Speaker 1: I remember the first time he asked me the question.
Speaker 1: You know, I had a slight moment of panic and
Speaker 1: I was like, if I can't with conviction give him
Speaker 1: an answer, you know, about to that question that I
Speaker 1: don't deserve to be in this role because it was
Speaker 1: you know, his family that started at all. It's because
Speaker 1: of him that we're doing what we're doing, and I
Speaker 1: better do a good job. Well, that sounds quite fascinating.
Speaker 1: We have been speaking with Saudia Madsburg of the Rockefeller Foundation.
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this conversation. Be sure and look up
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Speaker 1: so such conversations we have had previously. Uh be sure
Speaker 1: and share your comments, feedbacks and suggestions with us right too.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do that again because I just totally uh
Speaker 1: tripped on my own tongue. Be sure and send us
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Speaker 1: the plural words right to us at m IB podcast
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. I would you remiss if I
Speaker 1: did not thank Medina, our recording engineer, Taylor Riggs, our booker,
Speaker 1: and Michael Batnick, our director of research. I'm Barry Riholts.
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