WEBVTT - Ep. 194: American Wilderness - Unmanaged Land (Part 3) 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:09.560 I like getting in situations and being in places where 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:14.240 I'm not thinking about really anything besides what I'm doing. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.919 I'm able to be completely in the moment, and I 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:22.079 don't find that sense of peace and well being an 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.960 absence of distraction really anywhere else. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:32.040 American wilderness is fascinating, ironic, and misunderstood. Today we'll discuss 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.680 some of the criticisms of federal wilderness. The Bear Greece 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:39.599 Academy of Backwoodsmanship, Philosophy and Culture is back in session 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:44.960 for one final episode. Wild Place has forged our national identity, 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.120 and the peculiarities of American history made us handled these 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:54.280 places differently than anywhere else on earth. Understanding this forms 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:58.840 an essential knowledge base necessary to navigate the modern issues 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:03.160 of conservation and life and management. And I'm also interested 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.800 in how wilderness affects us on a personal level. And 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.280 at the beginning of this episode, we'll talk with meat 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:14.319 eater Stephen Rinella about that there are one hundred and 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:19.200 eleven million acres of federally designated wilderness in America, roughly 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:24.000 five percent of American soil. There's a lot up for grabs, 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:28.360 boys and girls, and there's never a long term guarantee 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.080 it's here to stay. I really doubt that you're gonna 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:33.000 want to miss this one. 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:35.880 When I hear many people talk about wilderness, they talk 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:41.120 about basically void of human activity. It sounds picturesque and 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.520 it sounds wonderful, But at what point does the void 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:49.639 in human use and human management turn into the void 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.600 of native ecosystem flora and fauna flourishing there. 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.760 My name is Clay nukemb and this is the Bear 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:10.799 Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.520 for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:16.880 story of Americans. 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.680 Who live their lives close to the land. 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:25.080 Presented by FHF gear, American made purpose built hunting and 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.600 fishing gear as designed to be as rugged as the 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:29.840 place as we explore. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.760 This one is from Edward Abbey. Okay, here's what Abbey says. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:43.959 Like D. H. 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:49.240 Lawrence, I am taken by the primeval charm and fascination 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:56.400 of the simple mysteries fire building in mud, rain, sunlight, 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.919 the smell of greasewood and live oak after a cloudburst, 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:08.080 the luxury of a sleeping hound. I require space, openness, economy, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:16.880 natural existence, red meat, women, fire, water, the essentials of liberty. 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:18.960 That's a classic Abby. 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:26.720 That was author and historian doctor Dan Flores. That quote 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.600 is a little racy for bear grease, and I even 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:33.080 amended out a spec of vulgarity. But the focus on 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:38.160 the essentials of human existence provokes thought and it relates 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:43.440 to wilderness. Abbey was eccentric but a spokesman for wild places. 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.600 After the last two episodes, it's become apparent that wild 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:51.840 places are essential to the idea of being human. It 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:56.119 seems the very definition of humanity has become that were 0:03:56.200 --> 0:04:00.600 separated from them. We came out of the wilderness, nothing 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:04.960 else did. Humans and wilderness are like light and darkness. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.440 One is defined by the absence of the other. Much 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.840 of our series has been about policy, history, philosophy, and 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.960 a bunch of this boring academic stuff about the dual 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.120 nature of wilderness, the reality and the ideal. 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.159 Brent acts like it's boring anyway, but he's dead wrong. 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.000 And now to kick us off, we're going to explore 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.440 some more personal questions and then we'll get into the 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.919 criticisms of wilderness. There's going to be two segments, but 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.520 here's the first. Meet your's own Steve Ranella talking about 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.200 what the idea of wilderness means to him personally. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:49.479 I am a wilderness advocate for matters deeply personal. I'm 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:55.599 a wilderness advocate for matters of humanity, okay, out of 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:59.680 concerns for humanity, and I'm a wilderness advocate out of 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:08.520 concerns for fish, birds, mammals, wildlife. They all intersect. But 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.600 when I say I'm a wilderness advocate for matters deeply personal, 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:17.960 I feel most enthralled, most engaged, most curious on what 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:22.120 I consider to be a wilderness landscape. I'm more impressed 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:29.000 by natural features natural landscapes than I am impressed by 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:35.600 anything made by man. I don't care about inventors. I'm 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:41.200 not interested in technology for its own sake. I don't 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:45.240 look at a phone and feel inspired. I don't look 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:49.840 at a tesla and think wow. I don't. I'm never 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:55.600 impressed by the gadgetry of man. I'm impressed by artistic creations, 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:57.880 film and music and things, but I'm not impressed by 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:03.919 the gadgetry of man. I'm deeply impressed by the products 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.919 of natural ecosystems. I love to look at animals, I 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.839 like to listen to birds. I like to marvel at fish. 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:11.960 I like to engage at. 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.880 These things, and in a wilderness landscape it's the richest 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:22.160 assemblages of those things and the lowest reminder of the 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.520 absence of those things. So it's a form of perfection. 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.920 Wilderness is a form of perfection, like the sound of that. 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:37.320 The implication is that perfection comes from not being influenced 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:43.520 by man ubiquitous across cultures without exception, it's accepted that 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:49.080 anything man touches becomes flawed. Perfection of natural systems is 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.320 a powerful idea, and will learn that there are some 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:57.120 real problems with the reality of wilderness, the actual land designation, 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.480 because the preservation of wilderness itself if there's a. 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.920 Man made vessel prone to error. 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.599 But I want to hear more from Steve about how 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:11.720 interacting with wilderness tangibly impacts him and will be coming 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.080 back to this idea of being unimpressed with technology. 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.640 Wilderness does a lot for my sense of well being, 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:25.800 but it's not a panacea. It doesn't cure, it doesn't 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:30.280 enable and cure everything for me, and I'll speak to 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.080 that a little more fully. I like getting in situations 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.360 and being in places where there's not a lot of 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:43.720 room for ancillary thoughts in places that demand a level 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.640 of focus or inspire a level of focus. If I'm 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.400 on the North Slope, Alaska's North Slope, I'm probably doing 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.080 something wroun. I'm only thinking really about what I'm doing. 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.280 I'm just engrossed by it. It doesn't help my craft 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.880 as a writer, because I don't care about writing and 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.840 don't think about writing. In that atmosphere, I'm not thinking 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:08.240 about really anything besides what I'm doing. I'm just I'm 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:11.200 able to be completely in the moment, and I don't 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:15.440 find that sense of peace and well being an absence 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:20.840 of distraction really anywhere else. If I'm sitting out, you know, 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.080 on the tundra, or sitting on top of a mountain 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.080 in the Rockies, and I'm just I'm sort of like, 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.000 what am I going to see? I'm looking for wildlife. 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.679 I'm just paying attention only to what's going on. If 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.360 I'm with people, I'm paying attention to them too. But 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.720 I'm thinking about sleeping that night, I'm thinking about eating 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:41.800 that night. I'm just in it. I'm like in it 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.360 in the moment. I'm not thinking up book ideas. I'm 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.600 just being there. Doing that, even if I go even 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.120 if I go to my so if I'm at my 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.400 fish shack in Southeast Alaska, which is a marine it's 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.760 a marine wilderness, I only think about what I'm doing. 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.040 We're catching fish, about that, we're catching shrimp. I'm thinking 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.440 about that. I only think about what I'm doing, and 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.199 I love that. I've joked before. The only other place 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.160 I've ever found that was riding my bike in Manhattan, 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:15.439 where like riding your bike in Manhattan, you only are 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.800 thinking about riding your bike in Manhattan because the minute 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.760 you're not thinking about that, you're going to get hit. 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:23.679 And I used to like to ride a bike through 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.360 Manhattan just because of how much attention you had to pay, 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.160 which is I'm only half joking when I say that, 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:30.000 I just like those things that. 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:30.880 Like to demand. 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.560 It demands all of your focus, demands all of your attention. 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:36.800 When I'm cooking, as much as I love my kids 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.000 and love my wife and love being in my home, 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.040 when I'm cooking dinner at night, I you know, I'm 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:43.800 ashamed to admit this a little bit. When I'm cooking 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.520 dinner at night, I'm not only thinking about cooking dinner 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:51.040 for my family in my home, all their stuff butts in. 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:51.680 I can't. 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:52.120 I don't. 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.880 I don't understand why if I was at my fishat 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:56.119 cooking dinner for my family. 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.520 I'm probably only thinking about my family. Yeah. 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.400 Well, I think that's a unique space that not everybody 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:08.560 can access on purpose. But how is that beneficial to you? 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.440 Is it only beneficial in a moment of pleasure where 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:17.680 you're able to escape these other tertiary demands on your life, 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:23.280 or does that time when you're in that space translate 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:26.320 to you being more effective back inside of your life 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:28.880 in other places, or or whatever. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:30.880 It's only beneficial in the moment. 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.680 Interaction with wilderness is only beneficial in the moment. His 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:41.400 answer surprised me. But I don't fully believe him. Not 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.200 that I think he's lying, I just don't think he's 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.480 giving his interaction with wilderness enough credit. Steve spends a 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.520 lot of time in wild places. His ideas are way 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.080 different than his buddy Threau, who believed wilderness was a 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:59.840 reservoir of intellectual nourishment for civilized men. I found that 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.520 Rodert Nash's book. But I have to agree with Steve. 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:09.480 I'm not immediately functionally inspired by wilderness, aside from the 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:14.800 raw pleasures and simple contentment of experiencing fear and discomfort, 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:21.360 accepting physical challenge, engaging with wildlife, and the unexplainable satisfaction 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:26.480 brought on by the perception of natural grandeur and whatever 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:33.000 intangible things are gained by the expression of awe. However, 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.920 when I return home, I think I have a better, 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:40.440 maybe even a unique, perspective on my everyday life, my 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:45.800 normal life. So wilderness does actually affect me beyond the moment. 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:46.920 I think it does. 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:51.200 Steve too, going back to what he said about being 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:57.000 uninspired by technology, Now that's interesting. Author Charles Hoffman back 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.880 in the eighteen hundred said that he venerated the hoary 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.840 oak more than a moldering column. He was talking about 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:08.200 European columns, back when we were establishing national identity, trying 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.440 to make ourselves feel cool because we had wilderness, we 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.320 didn't have big cities. I like it when a thought 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:17.520 leader like Ranella says something revelatory and it opens your eyes. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.760 I never really thought about people being inspired by technology, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.120 but I think they are, and that might explain why 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.800 I drive a ten year old dirty truck worth only 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:32.800 two thirds what by best mule is he is, and 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:37.360 not to change directions too quickly. But here's an interesting 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.280 thought from Ranella on the end of the world. 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:46.640 It's interesting idea that you know, we'll run our course, right, 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.600 we'll run our course, and humans will be gone from 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:51.599 the earth, and then all this crazy stuff's going to 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.840 happen here, right. I a sometimes look forward, like I 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.679 kind of look forward to humans being gone from the earth, 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.160 even though I won't build a witness, you know, crazy 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.520 stuff will happen here with wildlife. It's great to think 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.200 about it. It makes the destruction of the human race not 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.160 quite as bad to think about it if you think 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.640 about how crazy it's gonna get here all over again someday. 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.520 You know, after that happens, I could see in centuries, 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.600 thousands of years, it would revert back to a wilderness state. 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:23.360 And then all of a sudden you'd see like, you know, 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.079 you're gonna see chunks of what was a highway overpass, 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.640 you know, the highways that get grown over. But you'll 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.440 see like, oh my gosh, like a highway overpass. 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:32.840 You know, or something. 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:37.000 But it'll it'll revert, but it doesn't revert in our 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.760 in any kind of a time frame that humans can comprehend. 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:48.640 Well, that's encouraging, Steve. I appreciate that. Actually I mostly 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.480 agree with him, all joking aside, and without a hint 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:57.320 of religiosity. I want to give a criticism to modern Christianity. 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.000 Why say you? 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:02.600 The Bible speaks of the end of time and the 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.559 earth burning up with fire, and some have used this 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:11.240 to minimize their personal responsibility towards ecological stewardship, as in, 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.360 it doesn't matter because this place is going to burn 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.680 up anyhow. But I don't think the writers of the 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.000 Bible were implying to play it fast and loose with 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.040 the earth, but rather I read in the first two 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.320 chapters a direct exhortation for why is ecological stewardship? 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:30.240 Why is this relevant? 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:35.680 You may say, because Christianity's influence on American culture in 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:41.400 history is unparalleled, rivaling any other institution, and that makes 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:46.320 it relevant to an intelligent discussion. But I agree with Steve, 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.720 there is a time stamp on the human race's tenure 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:55.160 on this earth. We've used Steve Ranella as a test 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.960 patient to mine down into the tangible impact of wilderness 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.000 on his life. With that, we're going to switch gears 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:06.080 back to my original larger question of this series. Are 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:11.400 American ideals on wilderness globally unique? And we're going to 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.920 broach a bigger question of whether wilderness is still relevant 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.160 to modern America. 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.600 Here is doctor Dan Florees. 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.600 Writing about things like environmental history. I'll always have to 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.240 ask questions like, so, why is the United States the 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.960 first country in the world to create national parks? Why 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:32.760 are we the first country in the world to create 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:34.160 a national park system? 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:35.760 Why are we the first. 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:39.600 Country in the world to create a wilderness preservation system. Well, 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:45.040 the explanations I'll go back to this litany of things 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:50.760 that we've been talking about, and they all sort of await. 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:56.640 Really someone with insight like Frederick Jackson Turner to distill 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:00.720 it in a simple form, the significance of the frontier 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.840 in American history. And what the title doesn't say, but 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.080 what you find out when you read the article is 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.280 the significance of the frontier in American history is that 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:12.080 it created Americans. That's what the significance is, and so 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.880 it's such a potent idea that it shapes the next 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.720 seventy five years of American history. 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.800 I think this has been quantified beyond doubt that the 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:27.600 American mind frame on wilderness is globally unique, not perfect, 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:32.240 just unique. Like Turner wrote in his eighteen ninety essay, 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.920 I believe that today wilderness is still essential to the 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:42.600 American character. Here's Alabama's first son, Hal Herring. If you 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.720 listen to the last Bergrea shrender, you heard my vocal 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:46.920 impression of this man. 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:48.080 Here's how. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.240 And I was thinking of being on the what is 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.920 it the four h five down in California, you know, 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.240 and you're just stuck in that twelve lanes of traffic 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.720 and not that far away from you is you know, 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.520 at least the desolation wilderness which Jack Carroll wac wrote 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.880 about in nineteen fifty. He went there with Gary Snyder, 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.040 you know, the poet like this is so so much 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:18.680 a part of the fabric of our national identity. I meant, 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.520 you don't have to go back to John Muir, you know, 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.880 the grand old poet of the Sierra Nevada in California. 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.560 You can go to Gary Snyder in the fifties. You 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.400 can go to David Brower in the eighties, and all 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:36.080 of that huge movement that resulted in the nineteen seventies, 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:41.239 like environmental legislation. These were people who were out in 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:45.120 these wilderness areas in the United States, and they were 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:49.880 forming a kind of national identity. You can go back 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.520 to Frederick Jackson Turner in the frontier thesis. But this 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.719 is it's still going on. It's still part of our 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.840 national identity, maybe more so now than ever, that all 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.600 these tributaries have kind of come together and created this river. 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.760 That it's so obvious to us now that these places 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:14.200 are they're irreplaceable. There there is no way to put 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:20.000 a value on them. 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.320 House says, wilderness is more relevant than ever to our 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.840 national character. There is no way to put a value 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:32.640 on it. I like that, however, nations change, identity shifts 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:36.560 and policy drifts. I'd like to see our society cast 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.760 a gaze back to our roots, as conflicted as that 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:46.520 can be. America's story of wilderness is odd and full 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.800 of ironies. We became so proficient at destroying wilderness that 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.159 we were the first to federally save it. Wilderness was 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:58.520 touted here as a sacred cathedral, worthy to be preserved 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:02.840 on its own merit, but it conveniently coincided with pragmatism 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.880 and most of our first wildernesses were rock and ice 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:12.600 and basically unusable. Wilderness itself is defined by the absence 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:16.399 of man's intervention, but the reality of modern wilderness is 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.720 that it's entirely man made. America is known worldwide for 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.560 our great cities and urban centers, but the wilderness defined 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.840 our early identity. Isn't it ironic? 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:28.880 Don't you think? 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:37.040 Now we're going to discuss some criticisms of physical and 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:42.440 federally designated wilderness, not the idea. Here's author and professor 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:43.760 doctor Sara Dant. 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:44.679 So. 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.320 One of the things about wilderness is that it has 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:54.919 land management protocols that are the most restrictive really of 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:59.560 public lands. You can't have mechanized vehicles, you can't have roads, 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:05.720 you can't use machinery. Because it protects that original, untrammeled 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:10.080 definition as best one can. But for a lot of people, 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:14.880 the assumption is that wilderness is the land of no use. 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:21.240 They value the public lands because there is that multiple use. 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:27.000 The National forests have a multiple use designation, so do 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:32.520 Bureau of Land Management BLM lands. Those have obvious uses 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.919 that are tied to industries that people feel are in 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:44.920 many ways iconic family value kinds of things. Timbering, ranching, farming. 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:51.760 Those are uses of the land that translate into commercial value, 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:57.680 recognized value. And therefore, if you can't do those commercially 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:03.000 recognized valuable things on those lands, then they're not valuable, 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:04.360 they're worthless. 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:08.600 What about the argument of the elitist, Like from a 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:11.800 physical standpoint, like wilderness, you can't drive in there, you 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:15.440 can't take a helicopter in there, So it narrows the 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.879 usage of people to who are who are physically able 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:19.880 to get back in there. 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:20.480 That's true. 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:22.359 What do you say to that. 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:27.359 That's true, and that is unfortunate. But I really wanted 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:33.040 to play professional tennis and it turns out I can't 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:37.080 because I'm not able to do that. It's not going 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:39.439 to be it's not going to be an experience for everyone. 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:43.119 And there are places, there are public lands that we 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:48.600 do make accessible to everyone, that we have trails, we 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:51.800 do all of those things, and there are those places, 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:53.720 But I'm not going to get to the top of 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:54.680 Everest either. 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:58.919 The issues of access and multiple use are some of 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:04.880 the biggest criticisms of federal wilderness. Adam Keith is from Missouri. 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:09.199 He's a professional habitat and wildlife consultant and he has 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:13.040 a podcast called Land and Legacy. Once he muttered something 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.240 to me about wilderness with the capital W that made 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.639 me spin around and furrow my brow. 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:20.440 Here's Adam Keith. 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.359 When someone asked me about wilderness, I first, I have 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:28.840 so many follow up questions because what exactly are we 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.879 talking about? And you say, you know that wilderness area. 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.200 The definition I would use that almost say with a chuckle, 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:40.600 is a large track of land that's unmanaged. Because these 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:44.520 are areas that for me, when I see them, I 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:48.320 get concerned about the future of that area, and I 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.080 look at them from a standpoint of going what is 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:55.520 the natural landscape supposed to be here and what it 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:58.560 is now? And you know, coming from Missouri born and 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:01.399 raised and now with my job, we work in thirty 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:05.639 two states from basically Montana to the Atlantic, and I 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.080 get to see a lot of country and I assist 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:12.520 landowners in improving their property to try to add the 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:16.680 most bio diversity down the property possible. So the most 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:20.200 is specifically game species, but also non game species can 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.720 flourish there. And so for me, when I see these 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.480 wilderness areas, the ones I've stepped on and been on, 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:30.080 I almost cringe when someone says, oh, the wilderness area, 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:32.840 because I'm looking at it from a the lenses of 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:38.920 a native landscape enthusiast and as a hunter, and I'm going, man, 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:43.400 these areas are in dire need of some management, some disturbance, 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:48.439 some sort of action to help restore the biodiversity that 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:49.200 was once there. 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:53.879 And wait a minute, I thought wilderness was the poster 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:55.439 child of biodiversity. 0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:57.320 What is he talking about? 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:00.360 So I look, you know, I love public land. I've 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:02.120 hunted a lot of public lands, but when I see 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:05.639 these wilderness areas, specifically in the Midwest and East, I 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:08.080 just have to cringe and say, man, they could be 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:11.280 so much better if we were allowed to manage them 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:13.800 the way the landscape needs to be managed. And when 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:17.240 people talk about wilderness and we see kind of what 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:21.639 the purpose was to exclude these, you know, four wheelers 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:25.720 and mechanical machines on chainsaws, but we have to I 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:29.080 like to say, let's also look at what's being excluded 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:33.840 that was beneficial to the landscape from a natural disturbance, 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.320 and specifically, fire is one of them that I really 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:42.359 wish we could see more of. I'll take a very 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:46.240 close approach hits right at home. There's a large track 0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:49.280 of national forests just a few counties south of me, 0:24:49.800 --> 0:24:52.960 and you have a large track that is national forest, 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:57.240 and you have a large track that is wilderness, the 0:24:57.280 --> 0:24:59.760 wilderness being about twelve thousand acres. And if you go 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:04.200 to the those two areas, you'll see entirely different landscapes. 0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:07.440 If you go to the Gladtop trail where there's active management, 0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:12.280 you'll see these huge open glades, these amazing grasslands with 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:18.520 dotted savannahs around them, transitioning into woodlands with just incredible diversity. 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:21.600 You might even catch an Eastern collared lizard, which is 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:25.560 kind of one of our rare reptiles here in the Midwest. 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:28.159 And you might even catch a covey of quail. But 0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:31.240 you jump right across the road into the wilderness area 0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:35.639 and you're gonna see stark difference of unmanaged ground, and 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:38.720 that is gonna be chalked full of Eastern red cedar. 0:25:39.160 --> 0:25:42.680 They historically take over the glade ecosystem. You're gonna see 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:46.840 lots of invasive species like Serisa espadiza. Ultimately you're gonna 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:51.760 see not a whole lot of these open, beautiful wildflower 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:55.240 meadows that are within a mile away. It's just such 0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:58.000 a comparison for me to look at that and go 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:01.320 if I were to have to choose one, obviously I'm 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:03.680 going to take the glay Top Trail. With active management 0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:07.199 going on, you see more life there than you do 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:08.200 at the wilderness. 0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:14.200