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Speaker 1: I like getting in situations and being in places where

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Speaker 1: I'm not thinking about really anything besides what I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm able to be completely in the moment, and I

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Speaker 1: don't find that sense of peace and well being an

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Speaker 1: absence of distraction really anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: American wilderness is fascinating, ironic, and misunderstood. Today we'll discuss

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Speaker 2: some of the criticisms of federal wilderness. The Bear Greece

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Speaker 2: Academy of Backwoodsmanship, Philosophy and Culture is back in session

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Speaker 2: for one final episode. Wild Place has forged our national identity,

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Speaker 2: and the peculiarities of American history made us handled these

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Speaker 2: places differently than anywhere else on earth. Understanding this forms

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Speaker 2: an essential knowledge base necessary to navigate the modern issues

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Speaker 2: of conservation and life and management. And I'm also interested

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Speaker 2: in how wilderness affects us on a personal level. And

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Speaker 2: at the beginning of this episode, we'll talk with meat

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Speaker 2: eater Stephen Rinella about that there are one hundred and

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Speaker 2: eleven million acres of federally designated wilderness in America, roughly

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Speaker 2: five percent of American soil. There's a lot up for grabs,

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Speaker 2: boys and girls, and there's never a long term guarantee

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Speaker 2: it's here to stay. I really doubt that you're gonna

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Speaker 2: want to miss this one.

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Speaker 3: When I hear many people talk about wilderness, they talk

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Speaker 3: about basically void of human activity. It sounds picturesque and

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Speaker 3: it sounds wonderful, But at what point does the void

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Speaker 3: in human use and human management turn into the void

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Speaker 3: of native ecosystem flora and fauna flourishing there.

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Speaker 2: My name is Clay nukemb and this is the Bear

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Speaker 2: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search

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Speaker 2: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the

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Speaker 2: story of Americans.

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Speaker 4: Who live their lives close to the land.

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Speaker 2: Presented by FHF gear, American made purpose built hunting and

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Speaker 2: fishing gear as designed to be as rugged as the

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Speaker 2: place as we explore.

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Speaker 5: This one is from Edward Abbey. Okay, here's what Abbey says.

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Speaker 6: Like D. H.

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Speaker 5: Lawrence, I am taken by the primeval charm and fascination

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Speaker 5: of the simple mysteries fire building in mud, rain, sunlight,

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Speaker 5: the smell of greasewood and live oak after a cloudburst,

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Speaker 5: the luxury of a sleeping hound. I require space, openness, economy,

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Speaker 5: natural existence, red meat, women, fire, water, the essentials of liberty.

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Speaker 5: That's a classic Abby.

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Speaker 2: That was author and historian doctor Dan Flores. That quote

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Speaker 2: is a little racy for bear grease, and I even

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Speaker 2: amended out a spec of vulgarity. But the focus on

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Speaker 2: the essentials of human existence provokes thought and it relates

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Speaker 2: to wilderness. Abbey was eccentric but a spokesman for wild places.

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Speaker 2: After the last two episodes, it's become apparent that wild

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Speaker 2: places are essential to the idea of being human. It

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Speaker 2: seems the very definition of humanity has become that were

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Speaker 2: separated from them. We came out of the wilderness, nothing

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Speaker 2: else did. Humans and wilderness are like light and darkness.

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Speaker 2: One is defined by the absence of the other. Much

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Speaker 2: of our series has been about policy, history, philosophy, and

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Speaker 2: a bunch of this boring academic stuff about the dual

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Speaker 2: nature of wilderness, the reality and the ideal.

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Speaker 4: Brent acts like it's boring anyway, but he's dead wrong.

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Speaker 2: And now to kick us off, we're going to explore

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Speaker 2: some more personal questions and then we'll get into the

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Speaker 2: criticisms of wilderness. There's going to be two segments, but

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Speaker 2: here's the first. Meet your's own Steve Ranella talking about

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Speaker 2: what the idea of wilderness means to him personally.

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Speaker 1: I am a wilderness advocate for matters deeply personal. I'm

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Speaker 1: a wilderness advocate for matters of humanity, okay, out of

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Speaker 1: concerns for humanity, and I'm a wilderness advocate out of

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Speaker 1: concerns for fish, birds, mammals, wildlife. They all intersect. But

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Speaker 1: when I say I'm a wilderness advocate for matters deeply personal,

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Speaker 1: I feel most enthralled, most engaged, most curious on what

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Speaker 1: I consider to be a wilderness landscape. I'm more impressed

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Speaker 1: by natural features natural landscapes than I am impressed by

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Speaker 1: anything made by man. I don't care about inventors. I'm

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Speaker 1: not interested in technology for its own sake. I don't

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Speaker 1: look at a phone and feel inspired. I don't look

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Speaker 1: at a tesla and think wow. I don't. I'm never

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Speaker 1: impressed by the gadgetry of man. I'm impressed by artistic creations,

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Speaker 1: film and music and things, but I'm not impressed by

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Speaker 1: the gadgetry of man. I'm deeply impressed by the products

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Speaker 1: of natural ecosystems. I love to look at animals, I

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Speaker 1: like to listen to birds. I like to marvel at fish.

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Speaker 4: I like to engage at.

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Speaker 1: These things, and in a wilderness landscape it's the richest

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Speaker 1: assemblages of those things and the lowest reminder of the

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Speaker 1: absence of those things. So it's a form of perfection.

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Speaker 2: Wilderness is a form of perfection, like the sound of that.

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Speaker 2: The implication is that perfection comes from not being influenced

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Speaker 2: by man ubiquitous across cultures without exception, it's accepted that

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Speaker 2: anything man touches becomes flawed. Perfection of natural systems is

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Speaker 2: a powerful idea, and will learn that there are some

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Speaker 2: real problems with the reality of wilderness, the actual land designation,

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Speaker 2: because the preservation of wilderness itself if there's a.

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Speaker 4: Man made vessel prone to error.

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Speaker 2: But I want to hear more from Steve about how

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Speaker 2: interacting with wilderness tangibly impacts him and will be coming

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Speaker 2: back to this idea of being unimpressed with technology.

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Speaker 1: Wilderness does a lot for my sense of well being,

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Speaker 1: but it's not a panacea. It doesn't cure, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: enable and cure everything for me, and I'll speak to

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Speaker 1: that a little more fully. I like getting in situations

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Speaker 1: and being in places where there's not a lot of

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Speaker 1: room for ancillary thoughts in places that demand a level

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Speaker 1: of focus or inspire a level of focus. If I'm

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Speaker 1: on the North Slope, Alaska's North Slope, I'm probably doing

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Speaker 1: something wroun. I'm only thinking really about what I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm just engrossed by it. It doesn't help my craft

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Speaker 1: as a writer, because I don't care about writing and

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Speaker 1: don't think about writing. In that atmosphere, I'm not thinking

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Speaker 1: about really anything besides what I'm doing. I'm just I'm

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Speaker 1: able to be completely in the moment, and I don't

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Speaker 1: find that sense of peace and well being an absence

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Speaker 1: of distraction really anywhere else. If I'm sitting out, you know,

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Speaker 1: on the tundra, or sitting on top of a mountain

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Speaker 1: in the Rockies, and I'm just I'm sort of like,

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Speaker 1: what am I going to see? I'm looking for wildlife.

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Speaker 1: I'm just paying attention only to what's going on. If

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Speaker 1: I'm with people, I'm paying attention to them too. But

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about sleeping that night, I'm thinking about eating

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Speaker 1: that night. I'm just in it. I'm like in it

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Speaker 1: in the moment. I'm not thinking up book ideas. I'm

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Speaker 1: just being there. Doing that, even if I go even

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Speaker 1: if I go to my so if I'm at my

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Speaker 1: fish shack in Southeast Alaska, which is a marine it's

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Speaker 1: a marine wilderness, I only think about what I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: We're catching fish, about that, we're catching shrimp. I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about that. I only think about what I'm doing, and

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Speaker 1: I love that. I've joked before. The only other place

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Speaker 1: I've ever found that was riding my bike in Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: where like riding your bike in Manhattan, you only are

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Speaker 1: thinking about riding your bike in Manhattan because the minute

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Speaker 1: you're not thinking about that, you're going to get hit.

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Speaker 1: And I used to like to ride a bike through

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Speaker 1: Manhattan just because of how much attention you had to pay,

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Speaker 1: which is I'm only half joking when I say that,

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Speaker 1: I just like those things that.

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Speaker 4: Like to demand.

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Speaker 1: It demands all of your focus, demands all of your attention.

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Speaker 1: When I'm cooking, as much as I love my kids

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Speaker 1: and love my wife and love being in my home,

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Speaker 1: when I'm cooking dinner at night, I you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: ashamed to admit this a little bit. When I'm cooking

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Speaker 1: dinner at night, I'm not only thinking about cooking dinner

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Speaker 1: for my family in my home, all their stuff butts in.

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Speaker 4: I can't.

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Speaker 6: I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand why if I was at my fishat

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Speaker 1: cooking dinner for my family.

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Speaker 4: I'm probably only thinking about my family. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a unique space that not everybody

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Speaker 2: can access on purpose. But how is that beneficial to you?

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Speaker 2: Is it only beneficial in a moment of pleasure where

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Speaker 2: you're able to escape these other tertiary demands on your life,

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Speaker 2: or does that time when you're in that space translate

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Speaker 2: to you being more effective back inside of your life

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Speaker 2: in other places, or or whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's only beneficial in the moment.

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Speaker 2: Interaction with wilderness is only beneficial in the moment. His

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Speaker 2: answer surprised me. But I don't fully believe him. Not

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Speaker 2: that I think he's lying, I just don't think he's

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Speaker 2: giving his interaction with wilderness enough credit. Steve spends a

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Speaker 2: lot of time in wild places. His ideas are way

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Speaker 2: different than his buddy Threau, who believed wilderness was a

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Speaker 2: reservoir of intellectual nourishment for civilized men. I found that

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Speaker 2: Rodert Nash's book. But I have to agree with Steve.

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Speaker 2: I'm not immediately functionally inspired by wilderness, aside from the

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Speaker 2: raw pleasures and simple contentment of experiencing fear and discomfort,

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Speaker 2: accepting physical challenge, engaging with wildlife, and the unexplainable satisfaction

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Speaker 2: brought on by the perception of natural grandeur and whatever

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Speaker 2: intangible things are gained by the expression of awe. However,

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Speaker 2: when I return home, I think I have a better,

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Speaker 2: maybe even a unique, perspective on my everyday life, my

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Speaker 2: normal life. So wilderness does actually affect me beyond the moment.

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Speaker 4: I think it does.

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Speaker 2: Steve too, going back to what he said about being

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Speaker 2: uninspired by technology, Now that's interesting. Author Charles Hoffman back

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Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundred said that he venerated the hoary

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Speaker 2: oak more than a moldering column. He was talking about

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Speaker 2: European columns, back when we were establishing national identity, trying

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Speaker 2: to make ourselves feel cool because we had wilderness, we

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Speaker 2: didn't have big cities. I like it when a thought

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Speaker 2: leader like Ranella says something revelatory and it opens your eyes.

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Speaker 2: I never really thought about people being inspired by technology,

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Speaker 2: but I think they are, and that might explain why

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Speaker 2: I drive a ten year old dirty truck worth only

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Speaker 2: two thirds what by best mule is he is, and

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Speaker 2: not to change directions too quickly. But here's an interesting

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Speaker 2: thought from Ranella on the end of the world.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting idea that you know, we'll run our course, right,

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Speaker 1: we'll run our course, and humans will be gone from

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Speaker 1: the earth, and then all this crazy stuff's going to

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Speaker 1: happen here, right. I a sometimes look forward, like I

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Speaker 1: kind of look forward to humans being gone from the earth,

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Speaker 1: even though I won't build a witness, you know, crazy

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Speaker 1: stuff will happen here with wildlife. It's great to think

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Speaker 1: about it. It makes the destruction of the human race not

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Speaker 1: quite as bad to think about it if you think

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Speaker 1: about how crazy it's gonna get here all over again someday.

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Speaker 1: You know, after that happens, I could see in centuries,

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Speaker 1: thousands of years, it would revert back to a wilderness state.

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Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden you'd see like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna see chunks of what was a highway overpass,

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Speaker 1: you know, the highways that get grown over. But you'll

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Speaker 1: see like, oh my gosh, like a highway overpass.

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Speaker 4: You know, or something.

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Speaker 1: But it'll it'll revert, but it doesn't revert in our

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Speaker 1: in any kind of a time frame that humans can comprehend.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's encouraging, Steve. I appreciate that. Actually I mostly

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Speaker 2: agree with him, all joking aside, and without a hint

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Speaker 2: of religiosity. I want to give a criticism to modern Christianity.

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Speaker 4: Why say you?

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Speaker 2: The Bible speaks of the end of time and the

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Speaker 2: earth burning up with fire, and some have used this

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Speaker 2: to minimize their personal responsibility towards ecological stewardship, as in,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter because this place is going to burn

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Speaker 2: up anyhow. But I don't think the writers of the

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Speaker 2: Bible were implying to play it fast and loose with

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Speaker 2: the earth, but rather I read in the first two

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Speaker 2: chapters a direct exhortation for why is ecological stewardship?

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Speaker 4: Why is this relevant?

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Speaker 2: You may say, because Christianity's influence on American culture in

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Speaker 2: history is unparalleled, rivaling any other institution, and that makes

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Speaker 2: it relevant to an intelligent discussion. But I agree with Steve,

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Speaker 2: there is a time stamp on the human race's tenure

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Speaker 2: on this earth. We've used Steve Ranella as a test

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Speaker 2: patient to mine down into the tangible impact of wilderness

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Speaker 2: on his life. With that, we're going to switch gears

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Speaker 2: back to my original larger question of this series. Are

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Speaker 2: American ideals on wilderness globally unique? And we're going to

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Speaker 2: broach a bigger question of whether wilderness is still relevant

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Speaker 2: to modern America.

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Speaker 4: Here is doctor Dan Florees.

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Speaker 5: Writing about things like environmental history. I'll always have to

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Speaker 5: ask questions like, so, why is the United States the

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Speaker 5: first country in the world to create national parks? Why

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Speaker 5: are we the first country in the world to create

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Speaker 5: a national park system?

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Speaker 4: Why are we the first.

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Speaker 5: Country in the world to create a wilderness preservation system. Well,

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Speaker 5: the explanations I'll go back to this litany of things

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Speaker 5: that we've been talking about, and they all sort of await.

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Speaker 5: Really someone with insight like Frederick Jackson Turner to distill

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Speaker 5: it in a simple form, the significance of the frontier

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Speaker 5: in American history. And what the title doesn't say, but

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Speaker 5: what you find out when you read the article is

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Speaker 5: the significance of the frontier in American history is that

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Speaker 5: it created Americans. That's what the significance is, and so

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Speaker 5: it's such a potent idea that it shapes the next

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Speaker 5: seventy five years of American history.

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Speaker 2: I think this has been quantified beyond doubt that the

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Speaker 2: American mind frame on wilderness is globally unique, not perfect,

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Speaker 2: just unique. Like Turner wrote in his eighteen ninety essay,

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Speaker 2: I believe that today wilderness is still essential to the

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Speaker 2: American character. Here's Alabama's first son, Hal Herring. If you

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Speaker 2: listen to the last Bergrea shrender, you heard my vocal

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Speaker 2: impression of this man.

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Speaker 4: Here's how.

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Speaker 6: And I was thinking of being on the what is

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Speaker 6: it the four h five down in California, you know,

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Speaker 6: and you're just stuck in that twelve lanes of traffic

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Speaker 6: and not that far away from you is you know,

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Speaker 6: at least the desolation wilderness which Jack Carroll wac wrote

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Speaker 6: about in nineteen fifty. He went there with Gary Snyder,

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Speaker 6: you know, the poet like this is so so much

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Speaker 6: a part of the fabric of our national identity. I meant,

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Speaker 6: you don't have to go back to John Muir, you know,

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Speaker 6: the grand old poet of the Sierra Nevada in California.

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Speaker 6: You can go to Gary Snyder in the fifties. You

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Speaker 6: can go to David Brower in the eighties, and all

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Speaker 6: of that huge movement that resulted in the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 6: like environmental legislation. These were people who were out in

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Speaker 6: these wilderness areas in the United States, and they were

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Speaker 6: forming a kind of national identity. You can go back

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Speaker 6: to Frederick Jackson Turner in the frontier thesis. But this

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Speaker 6: is it's still going on. It's still part of our

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Speaker 6: national identity, maybe more so now than ever, that all

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Speaker 6: these tributaries have kind of come together and created this river.

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Speaker 6: That it's so obvious to us now that these places

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Speaker 6: are they're irreplaceable. There there is no way to put

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Speaker 6: a value on them.

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Speaker 2: House says, wilderness is more relevant than ever to our

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Speaker 2: national character. There is no way to put a value

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Speaker 2: on it. I like that, however, nations change, identity shifts

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Speaker 2: and policy drifts. I'd like to see our society cast

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Speaker 2: a gaze back to our roots, as conflicted as that

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Speaker 2: can be. America's story of wilderness is odd and full

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Speaker 2: of ironies. We became so proficient at destroying wilderness that

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Speaker 2: we were the first to federally save it. Wilderness was

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Speaker 2: touted here as a sacred cathedral, worthy to be preserved

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Speaker 2: on its own merit, but it conveniently coincided with pragmatism

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Speaker 2: and most of our first wildernesses were rock and ice

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Speaker 2: and basically unusable. Wilderness itself is defined by the absence

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Speaker 2: of man's intervention, but the reality of modern wilderness is

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Speaker 2: that it's entirely man made. America is known worldwide for

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Speaker 2: our great cities and urban centers, but the wilderness defined

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Speaker 2: our early identity. Isn't it ironic?

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Speaker 4: Don't you think?

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Speaker 2: Now we're going to discuss some criticisms of physical and

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Speaker 2: federally designated wilderness, not the idea. Here's author and professor

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Speaker 2: doctor Sara Dant.

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Speaker 6: So.

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Speaker 7: One of the things about wilderness is that it has

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Speaker 7: land management protocols that are the most restrictive really of

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Speaker 7: public lands. You can't have mechanized vehicles, you can't have roads,

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Speaker 7: you can't use machinery. Because it protects that original, untrammeled

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Speaker 7: definition as best one can. But for a lot of people,

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Speaker 7: the assumption is that wilderness is the land of no use.

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Speaker 7: They value the public lands because there is that multiple use.

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Speaker 7: The National forests have a multiple use designation, so do

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Speaker 7: Bureau of Land Management BLM lands. Those have obvious uses

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Speaker 7: that are tied to industries that people feel are in

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Speaker 7: many ways iconic family value kinds of things. Timbering, ranching, farming.

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Speaker 7: Those are uses of the land that translate into commercial value,

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Speaker 7: recognized value. And therefore, if you can't do those commercially

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Speaker 7: recognized valuable things on those lands, then they're not valuable,

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Speaker 7: they're worthless.

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Speaker 2: What about the argument of the elitist, Like from a

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Speaker 2: physical standpoint, like wilderness, you can't drive in there, you

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Speaker 2: can't take a helicopter in there, So it narrows the

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Speaker 2: usage of people to who are who are physically able

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Speaker 2: to get back in there.

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Speaker 7: That's true.

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Speaker 4: What do you say to that.

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Speaker 7: That's true, and that is unfortunate. But I really wanted

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Speaker 7: to play professional tennis and it turns out I can't

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Speaker 7: because I'm not able to do that. It's not going

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Speaker 7: to be it's not going to be an experience for everyone.

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Speaker 7: And there are places, there are public lands that we

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Speaker 7: do make accessible to everyone, that we have trails, we

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Speaker 7: do all of those things, and there are those places,

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Speaker 7: But I'm not going to get to the top of

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Speaker 7: Everest either.

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Speaker 2: The issues of access and multiple use are some of

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Speaker 2: the biggest criticisms of federal wilderness. Adam Keith is from Missouri.

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Speaker 2: He's a professional habitat and wildlife consultant and he has

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Speaker 2: a podcast called Land and Legacy. Once he muttered something

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Speaker 2: to me about wilderness with the capital W that made

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Speaker 2: me spin around and furrow my brow.

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Speaker 4: Here's Adam Keith.

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Speaker 3: When someone asked me about wilderness, I first, I have

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Speaker 3: so many follow up questions because what exactly are we

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Speaker 3: talking about? And you say, you know that wilderness area.

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Speaker 3: The definition I would use that almost say with a chuckle,

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Speaker 3: is a large track of land that's unmanaged. Because these

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Speaker 3: are areas that for me, when I see them, I

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Speaker 3: get concerned about the future of that area, and I

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Speaker 3: look at them from a standpoint of going what is

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Speaker 3: the natural landscape supposed to be here and what it

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Speaker 3: is now? And you know, coming from Missouri born and

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Speaker 3: raised and now with my job, we work in thirty

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Speaker 3: two states from basically Montana to the Atlantic, and I

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Speaker 3: get to see a lot of country and I assist

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Speaker 3: landowners in improving their property to try to add the

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Speaker 3: most bio diversity down the property possible. So the most

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Speaker 3: is specifically game species, but also non game species can

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Speaker 3: flourish there. And so for me, when I see these

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Speaker 3: wilderness areas, the ones I've stepped on and been on,

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Speaker 3: I almost cringe when someone says, oh, the wilderness area,

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Speaker 3: because I'm looking at it from a the lenses of

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Speaker 3: a native landscape enthusiast and as a hunter, and I'm going, man,

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Speaker 3: these areas are in dire need of some management, some disturbance,

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Speaker 3: some sort of action to help restore the biodiversity that

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Speaker 3: was once there.

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Speaker 2: And wait a minute, I thought wilderness was the poster

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Speaker 2: child of biodiversity.

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Speaker 4: What is he talking about?

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Speaker 3: So I look, you know, I love public land. I've

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Speaker 3: hunted a lot of public lands, but when I see

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Speaker 3: these wilderness areas, specifically in the Midwest and East, I

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Speaker 3: just have to cringe and say, man, they could be

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Speaker 3: so much better if we were allowed to manage them

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Speaker 3: the way the landscape needs to be managed. And when

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Speaker 3: people talk about wilderness and we see kind of what

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Speaker 3: the purpose was to exclude these, you know, four wheelers

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Speaker 3: and mechanical machines on chainsaws, but we have to I

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Speaker 3: like to say, let's also look at what's being excluded

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Speaker 3: that was beneficial to the landscape from a natural disturbance,

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Speaker 3: and specifically, fire is one of them that I really

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Speaker 3: wish we could see more of. I'll take a very

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Speaker 3: close approach hits right at home. There's a large track

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Speaker 3: of national forests just a few counties south of me,

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Speaker 3: and you have a large track that is national forest,

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Speaker 3: and you have a large track that is wilderness, the

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Speaker 3: wilderness being about twelve thousand acres. And if you go

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Speaker 3: to the those two areas, you'll see entirely different landscapes.

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Speaker 3: If you go to the Gladtop trail where there's active management,

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Speaker 3: you'll see these huge open glades, these amazing grasslands with

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Speaker 3: dotted savannahs around them, transitioning into woodlands with just incredible diversity.

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Speaker 3: You might even catch an Eastern collared lizard, which is

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Speaker 3: kind of one of our rare reptiles here in the Midwest.

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Speaker 3: And you might even catch a covey of quail. But

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Speaker 3: you jump right across the road into the wilderness area

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Speaker 3: and you're gonna see stark difference of unmanaged ground, and

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Speaker 3: that is gonna be chalked full of Eastern red cedar.

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Speaker 3: They historically take over the glade ecosystem. You're gonna see

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Speaker 3: lots of invasive species like Serisa espadiza. Ultimately you're gonna

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Speaker 3: see not a whole lot of these open, beautiful wildflower

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Speaker 3: meadows that are within a mile away. It's just such

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Speaker 3: a comparison for me to look at that and go

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Speaker 3: if I were to have to choose one, obviously I'm

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Speaker 3: going to take the glay Top Trail. With active management

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Speaker 3: going on, you see more life there than you do

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Speaker 3: at the wilderness.

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Speaker 2: Adam has seen federal wilderness, especially in the East, having

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Speaker 2: a lot of invasives, having less biodiversity, and is actually

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Speaker 2: less like pre European landscapes than the more managed national forest,

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Speaker 2: primarily because of lack of fire. But I think it's

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Speaker 2: important to note that he's primarily talking about these smaller

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Speaker 2: wilderness areas in the Eastern USA, because some fire does

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Speaker 2: naturally happen in the big Western wildernesses, but it's often

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Speaker 2: catastrophic fire. Smaller, more regular burns would reduce fuel loads

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Speaker 2: and fires wouldn't be as intense.

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Speaker 4: This is all really complicated stuff.

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Speaker 3: When it comes to these wilderness areas. I think it's

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Speaker 3: very unfair to assume that you can manage an eastern

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Speaker 3: wilderness as, say in North Carolina, the same way you

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Speaker 3: would manage a wilderness area in Montana or Alaska. They're

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Speaker 3: totally different areas, totally different ecosystems, different historical disturbances, and

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't even manage your own farm, or you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: manage the same way in the southern part of your

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Speaker 3: state is the northern part of the state. So I

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Speaker 3: think it's very unfair for us to believe that you

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Speaker 3: can throw a label or throw up some signs and

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Speaker 3: call it a wilderness area and have the same management

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Speaker 3: across the board and expect the same results. When I

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Speaker 3: hear many people talk about wilderness, they talk about basically

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Speaker 3: void of human activity. Talk about the ability to go

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Speaker 3: and camp or walk and hike all the way through it,

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Speaker 3: ride a horse and not run into major human activity.

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Speaker 3: And it sounds picturesque and it sounds wonderful. But putting

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Speaker 3: the lens of land management and natural native ecosystem restoration on,

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Speaker 3: I say, but at what point does the void and

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Speaker 3: human use and human management turn into the void of

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Speaker 3: native ecosystem flora and fauna flourishing.

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Speaker 4: There A lot of people love the idea of wilderness.

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Speaker 4: They love the idea of it.

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Speaker 3: But if I could walk with every single one of

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Speaker 3: those people through a wilderness here in the Midwest and

436
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 3: eastern part, we would walk away on the same page.

437
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 6: I'm convinced of it.

438
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,479
Speaker 2: The real question here is what do we really value

439
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 2: about wilderness. Is it the physically untrammeled, uninfluenced by man aspect,

440
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: meaning you don't see roads, firebreaks, stumps and tire tracks.

441
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: Or do we value pre European biodiversity. It seems like

442
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: it's really hard to have both, and this is a

443
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: tough one for me. I don't like seeing roads, and

444
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: even if they are gated, you know, people will violate

445
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: the law and unlawfully enter. Would any human management at

446
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: all break the whole untrammeled aspect of wilderness that we

447
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: love so much. What's more important to you, untrammeled or biodiversity?

448
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 4: Think about it.

449
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: Here's documentary wild life filmmaker Ben masters Well.

450
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 8: I think that it's important to recognize that we are

451
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 8: living in an extinction crisis in the world right now,

452
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 8: and that wildernesses harbor one of the greatest hopes in

453
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 8: conserving biodiversity. So if a wilderness area isn't managed for

454
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 8: that natural habitat that should be there, For example, a

455
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 8: Ponderosa pine forest which requires natural fire to go through

456
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 8: that ecosystem, and instead that area is allowed to become

457
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,239
Speaker 8: dominated by an invasive species, then not only is that

458
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 8: I believe antithetical to the purpose of the wilderness ideal,

459
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 8: but I would also consider that to be a threat

460
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 8: to biodiversity at large. Of course, we should manage our

461
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 8: wilderness areas to promote native endemic species to that areas,

462
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 8: and if that requires things like burn breaks, or requires

463
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 8: things like, you know, removing invasive species through mechanical means,

464
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 8: then I am in full support of that. I'd like

465
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 8: to think that we could take a hands off approach,

466
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 8: but like the whole idea of wilderness is very hands on.

467
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 8: Like that is a very human construct to designate a

468
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 8: wilderness as a place free from humanity. But just the

469
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 8: very political nature of how wilderness was created inherently means

470
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 8: that it is this man made thing. And I think

471
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 8: that recognizing what that man made thing is, we should

472
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 8: manage it to be the best wilderness possible. And if

473
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 8: that requires some intervention, you know, ensuring that that habitat

474
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 8: is able to continue to exist into the future, than

475
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 8: by all means, I think that we should intervene.

476
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: Ben's answer surprise me, but seems reasonable.

477
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 3: When we get into the wilderness and I start talking

478
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 3: about this, I typically depending on who I'm talking to,

479
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: but they're ready to pitch me away because it's kind

480
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 3: of I'm not anti wilderness, I'm not anti public lands,

481
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 3: I'm not any of that.

482
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 4: I'm just pro active land management.

483
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 3: And I feel like a simple you know, I'm not saying,

484
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 3: call up the lumber crews and the timber crews and

485
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 3: get them in there and let's start cutting.

486
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 4: Some wilderness areas.

487
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: I think what we have to understand my argument in

488
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 3: simple terms is can we reevaluate the management plan that

489
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 3: we have currently? Can we reevaluate the terms that are

490
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: put in place for the wilderness areas because there's too

491
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: many invasives, there's too much catastrophic fire, there's too many

492
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 3: wild far as, there's too many things happening in these

493
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: areas that are causing a major decline in our game

494
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 3: and non game species as well as the flora and

495
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: the fauna. We're not just talking I want more deer.

496
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that. And for just a simple solution,

497
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 3: I'd say, can we use prescribe fire in these areas?

498
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 3: Can we use them to help thin out some of

499
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: the invasive species that are there? Can we help use

500
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 3: the fire to stimulate new growth. There's a lot of

501
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 3: trees in some of these wilderness areas that are sick,

502
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: disease declining, and fire will help go ahead and kill

503
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: them and free up that space for new life to

504
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: grow up. And the other simple requests that would have

505
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 3: would be anything invasive species management. Once we identify the

506
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: invasives that are there, can we go in and remove

507
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 3: them through different means whatever the best management practice is

508
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,479
Speaker 3: for that list of invasives. That's what I choose to do.

509
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 3: Could be a timed application of herbicide to remain move

510
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 3: a specific species. And I know I said the word herbicide,

511
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,479
Speaker 3: and people are gonna be upset about that. But we

512
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: have to find solutions to remove these invasives or at

513
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: least begin to set them back rather than just let

514
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 3: them go crazy in our wilderness areas.

515
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 8: If we resurrected John Muir and introduce some type of

516
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 8: invasive tree to the Yosemite Valley and took him there

517
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 8: and said, all right, John, look at this valley here.

518
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 8: In fifty years it's going to be completely dominated by

519
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 8: this invasive tree and this ecosystem that inspired you so

520
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 8: much to advocate for wilderness is going to disappear. What

521
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 8: do you think we should do? Should we combat this

522
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 8: invasive species or should we preserve the wilderness idea and

523
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 8: take a totally hands off approach. I think John Muir

524
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 8: would agree with that sentiment, that we should manage our

525
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 8: wilderness areas for what makes them so special. Yeah, I

526
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 8: think a hands off approach is irresponsible.

527
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: A hands off approach is irresponsible. I appreciate the certainty

528
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: of his answer, and he's not wrong. However, I'm not

529
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: sure I trust the system enough to let them change

530
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: the rules. Is that reasonable? And to make a comment

531
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 2: about the extinction crisis. As North American hunters, we Clay

532
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: loves to talk about how well the twenty nine big

533
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: game species are doing and how hunting has saved them.

534
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 2: This is our stump speech. And sometimes I can be

535
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: dismissive of environmental messaging because it appears to be politically motivated. However,

536
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: because I pay attention to what's going on globally and

537
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: in this country, this biodiversity crisis is real. Let's just

538
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: take where I live in Arkansas. Pre European settlement, there

539
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 2: would have been insignificant numbers wolves, mountain lions, bison, elk

540
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 2: ivory build, woodpeckers, and passenger pigeons. Only the pigeon and

541
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: the woodpecker are extinct. The others just extirpated. But that's

542
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: a significant chunk of biote had taken off the landscape.

543
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: And this isn't even including amphibians and insects the road.

544
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: Dad Gumm talked about the demigod that stole the stars

545
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 2: and how he wants to see an entire heaven and

546
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 2: an entire earth. The real question is what do we

547
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: value in wilderness. Is it simply no people or evidence

548
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 2: of them, or is it a healthy, biodiverse ecosystem.

549
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 4: Here's Adam as.

550
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 3: A land manager and a habitat consultant. A lot of

551
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: times we love to quote All the Leopold, and we

552
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: love to read Sand County Almanac and just be mesmerized

553
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 3: by his thoughts. And you know, although it passed away

554
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 3: in like nineteen forty eight, another common name when you

555
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 3: start talking All the Leopold, you talk about John and

556
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 3: he passed away nineteen fourteen. And you know, these guys

557
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 3: had incredible ideas of the landscape. John Mirror more of

558
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 3: a preservationist mindset. Aldo Leopold you know, famously for his

559
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 3: five tools of land management with an axe, cow, plow, fire,

560
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 3: and a gun. That doesn't sound like a preservationist, a

561
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 3: wilderness type, even though he's helped, he helped with some

562
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 3: of the ideas of wilderness. And I think as much

563
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 3: as I love all those work, there's one thing that

564
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 3: I pulled away when reading him is his love for

565
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 3: native land scapes, like just just the wild, undeveloped land.

566
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 3: And so when he talked a little bit about invasive species,

567
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 3: but you know, there's a it's a totally different world

568
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 3: when you look at the invasive loads that we have

569
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 3: today versus in the thirties and forties. And I think

570
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 3: if he were alive today, I feel like he would

571
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 3: have to say, I think we need to reevaluate the

572
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 3: management that we're doing in our eastern and Midwestern forest,

573
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 3: especially the wilderness, because we are drowning in evasives and

574
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 3: they are in dire need of help and right now

575
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 3: we can't do anything. But with this wilderness idea, it's like,

576
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 3: let's just blanket it and call it a wilderness area.

577
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: And now all we know is that no man's going

578
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 3: to be building houses or condos or cottages there, it's

579
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: going to be kind of left alone, and it's like, Oh,

580
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 3: no game manager in the country would say, I'm going

581
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 3: to write a plan for now forever and leave it

582
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 3: as is. There's always reevaluations that happen, and that's because

583
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: we're trying to do what's best for the landscape.

584
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: The trouble with reevaluations when it comes to federal wilderness

585
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 2: is what if they change it all together? What if

586
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: an open gate ends up with the whole thing being reorganized?

587
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: Is it better to risk it with invasive species are

588
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: fundamentally changed? The regulations on wilderness risking larger scale changes.

589
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: Is the federal system nimble enough to regulate different places

590
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: under different rules? Can they be trusted? I do not

591
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: know the answer to this. What do you think now

592
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: we've seen some of the problems with wilderness, but what

593
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 2: are the most real challenges they'll face and the coming generations.

594
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 8: I've had the opportunity to think a lot about wilderness.

595
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 8: I recently had a daughter and a son. Bertie is

596
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 8: three and a half and Davis, my boy's year and

597
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 8: a half old. I think about how our generation has

598
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 8: inherited this amazing gift of wild places and of all

599
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 8: the wonderful things that America has, the opportunity, the economic opportunity,

600
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 8: I think that the greatest gift that we've inherited is

601
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 8: wild places. And I think that that is the greatest

602
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 8: gift that we can give our children as well. You know,

603
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,479
Speaker 8: looking fifty one hundred, two hundred years down the road,

604
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 8: that is going to be the most valuable commodity that

605
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 8: the future has is wilderness. And I think that it's

606
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 8: foolish for us to assume that just because a wilderness

607
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 8: area exists today, that it's going to exist fifty or

608
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 8: one hundred years from now.

609
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 2: I asked how Hering what the biggest threat to American

610
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 2: wilderness is.

611
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 4: Here's what he said.

612
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: I sure hope he doesn't bring up America's greatest president,

613
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan.

614
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 6: In the West, particular all over the country though the

615
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 6: United States, the people since Reagan have been taught.

616
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 4: Dad gumn how told you not to bring up Reagan.

617
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 6: That the federal government is an enemy, the most dangerous

618
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 6: words in English language. Where I'm from the federal government

619
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 6: and I'm here to help you, you know, Randy Weaver whatever,

620
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 6: David Koresh in Waco right like and you're not going

621
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 6: to find a more skeptical person of government power than Hell.

622
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 6: That person doesn't exist. However, we have been carefully taught

623
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 6: to despise and reject the federal government as a solution

624
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 6: to any problems. And the honest answer to this is

625
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 6: the federal government is responsible for the US Forest Service,

626
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 6: and for the wilderness, and for the designated wilderness, and

627
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 6: for all the American system of public lands. And if

628
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 6: we continue to disempower, dislike, distrust, despise our own government

629
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 6: at the federal level, we're not going to have these protections,

630
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 6: and these lands are going to be overrun by people

631
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 6: who seek to profit from them in the next one

632
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 6: hundred years for sure. So the answer to that is

633
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 6: a very American answer, and it is that we, the people,

634
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 6: operating a government of the people, by the people for

635
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 6: the people, are going to have to choose at the

636
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 6: federal level to keep these lands in public hands and

637
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 6: federally managed.

638
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 4: Whoo.

639
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 2: How that's interesting and insightful. As we come to a

640
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 2: close on this session of the Bare Greece Academy, we've

641
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 2: covered a lot of ground, but most notably, this series

642
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 2: has challenged my views on American wilderness through one simple thing, knowledge.

643
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 2: I just know more than I did before. I want

644
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: to ask doctor Floor as one final question, and it

645
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: pertains to knowledge, and it's more of a philosophical one.

646
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 2: It's one I'm asking myself. Do you as your attitude

647
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 2: of wilderness changed?

648
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 4: Oh?

649
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's changed, for sure, But so I understand much

650
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 5: better the role of wilderness as a constructed idea in

651
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 5: the American mind. In particular, one of the great things

652
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 5: about learning new information is that it rearranges the furniture

653
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 5: in your head. Suddenly you can't ever go back. Your

654
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 5: whole point of view is from a different angle on

655
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 5: the world now. And I think understanding how wilderness got

656
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 5: conceived and how it was altered by Romanticism and by

657
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 5: Turner Fredick Jackson Turner, and by the Wilderness Act, and

658
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 5: the whole notion of wilderness as a place where humans

659
00:42:55,600 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 5: don't remain, which was a complete misapprehension of what earlier

660
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 5: Europeans actually were seeing in America. That's all been modified

661
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 5: by what I've read and understood. But somehow it didn't

662
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 5: make me not not want to live like this, and

663
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 5: it hasn't hasn't had any kind of impact on. I've

664
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 5: got a chance to go spend twelve days floating down

665
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 5: the Hulahula River from the top of the Brooks Range

666
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 5: to the Arctic Sea through the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge

667
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 5: with ten thousand cariboo around me and packs of wolves

668
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 5: hunting them. Right, I'm going to go do.

669
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: I hope this series has made you evaluate how you view,

670
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: interact with, and are influenced by America's wild lands. I

671
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: believe understanding our cultural history is critical to having any

672
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 2: objective and reasonable opinions on how it should be treated today.

673
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 2: In the coming decades and even coming centuries. I believe

674
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: wild lands will one day be the most scarce natural

675
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 2: resource on planet Earth. A day will come when men

676
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: will crave to interact with them and will not be

677
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: able to find them. That is, unless we can keep

678
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 2: them wild. In many ways, that day is already upon us. Overall,

679
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 2: oak the series sparks a more effective passion in our

680
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: hearts for wild lands and all their forms. I know

681
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 2: that it's challenged meat, it's rearranged the furniture in my head.

682
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 2: In the end, it's clear to me that America does

683
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: have a globally unique perspective on wild lands and that's

684
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 2: something to be proud of. We just have to make

685
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: sure the wild places stay wild. Thanks so much for

686
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: listening to Bear Grease. The spring is upon us and

687
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: we're about to get in to some turkey hunting stories.

688
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: Be sure to come out and see Brent and I

689
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 2: on March ninth, twenty twenty four, in Bntonville, Arkansas at

690
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: the Black Bear Bonanza.

691
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 4: We'll be there all day.

692
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 2: And the Mediator Crew is hitting the road again for

693
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: a live tour out west in April and May, so

694
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: look for some more info on that. I'll be there too.

695
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 2: I hope you have a great week.

696
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 4: Thanks again,