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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: In the last hours, the bio, dad and grandparents of

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Speaker 2: missing autistic boy Sebastian Rogers hold a vigil where everyone

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Speaker 2: vows that Sebastian will be brought home.

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Speaker 1: Safe and sound. Will he.

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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us here at Crime Stories as we continue

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Speaker 2: joining in the search for Sebastian.

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Speaker 1: First of all, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 2: Have the two of you taken a polygraph? I have?

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Speaker 3: I have not.

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Speaker 1: Would you be willing to?

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Speaker 3: I've offered and volunteered on many occasions to take a polygraph,

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Speaker 3: and I was told directly by law enforcement because of

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Speaker 3: my whereabouts I did not need one.

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Speaker 1: I understand Miss Proudfoot. Did you pass your polygraph?

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Speaker 4: I did.

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Speaker 2: That's not exactly what has been stated before by Sebastian Rogers' stepfather,

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Speaker 2: mister Proudfoot. Listen, and mister Proudfoot, you have volunteered to

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Speaker 2: take a polly?

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Speaker 1: Yes, Sam? If I were to set up a polly

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Speaker 1: for you, would you take it?

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Speaker 3: Named the place?

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Speaker 4: In time?

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Speaker 3: Ma'm I'll be there.

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Speaker 2: Joining me in All Star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 2: what we're hearing right now. But first, to Dave Mac,

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Speaker 2: crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Dave Mac, isn't it

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Speaker 2: true that crime online dot Com did set up a polygraph?

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Speaker 5: Absolutely true? And what happened Chris Proudfoot told us that

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Speaker 5: he had to he could not take it now you

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Speaker 5: wanted to, but he can't because the told him not to.

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Speaker 1: It's my understanding. To Cheryl McCollum joining us.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute,

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Speaker 2: forensics expert.

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Speaker 1: And host of Zone seven podcast.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl, it's my understanding that specifically, Sebastian's stepfather said he

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Speaker 2: could no longer do interviews, including with us, because he

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Speaker 2: had been instructed so by the TBI and Jackie correct

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Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong, that they did not want any

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Speaker 2: of his interviews to interfere with the investigation, and that

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Speaker 2: even though he had agreed to do our polygraph, he

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Speaker 2: now says that the TBI is going to set up

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Speaker 2: their own polygraph and he can't take our polygraph until

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Speaker 2: after that, and once he does that, then quote will

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Speaker 2: take it from there.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of it?

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Speaker 4: You know, you and I always go back to Mark

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Speaker 4: Class if you want to make sure that the law

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Speaker 4: enforcement has everything they need to get rid of looking

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Speaker 4: at you. You can do that.

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Speaker 1: He can set up.

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Speaker 4: A private polygraph through an attorney, he can take yours.

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Speaker 4: He can demand that TBI give him one so that

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Speaker 4: they can stop focusing on him and this polygraph business

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Speaker 4: and move on and find out where Sebastian is at period.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Cheryl McCollum, you and I can go right

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Speaker 2: now and pay for a polygraph. That'd be happy right

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Speaker 2: to take our money. Hate Just put it on a

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Speaker 2: credit card and take a polygraph.

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Speaker 4: And here's the other TBI would be happy to accept

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Speaker 4: those results. A polygraph is a polygraph is a polygraph,

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Speaker 4: and the examiner that's who you're relying on. So you've

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Speaker 4: got somebody that's going to be willing to testify and

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Speaker 4: put their reputation on the one again. He can make

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Speaker 4: this happen today if he wanted to.

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Speaker 2: Let's go straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,

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Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on

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Speaker 2: Amazon and Starve hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Joscott, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: You know what this is like static in my ears,

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Speaker 2: because I know tiktalk tik talk.

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Speaker 1: As long as we focus on.

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Speaker 2: The stepfather and the mother, mister and missus proudfoot, I'm

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Speaker 2: losing time. If by some stretch of the imagination, Sebastian

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Speaker 2: is still alive. If he's alive, he won't be much longer.

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Speaker 2: What are the stats show?

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Speaker 1: What is your opinion? I need it and I need

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Speaker 1: it now. Joe Scott.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, the biggest thing that we're looking at is this

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Speaker 6: idea of Tom. We're talking about a young man that

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Speaker 6: went seeing back in February, Nancy, late February, and as

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Speaker 6: we move down that timeline, you know, the odds are

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Speaker 6: stacked against him. I think one of the most important

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Speaker 6: pieces that's kind of arisen out of this other than

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Speaker 6: all of the comments that have been made to this

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Speaker 6: point relative to polygraphs and those sorts of things, are

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Speaker 6: those eyeglasses. And I love the shot the producers put

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Speaker 6: up of him standing in front of that rack of

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Speaker 6: eyeglasses because that's going to tell the tale. I think

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Speaker 6: if they can specifically tie those to him, that's very important.

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Speaker 6: They can take that script off of those classes determined.

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Speaker 1: I don't think glasses Joe Scott. I don't think they're

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Speaker 1: his glasses.

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Speaker 6: Well, at this point in time, you have to work

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Speaker 6: with what you have. If they're not his, then that

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Speaker 6: that points us down a different road.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's go with Tom. Let's go with they're not

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Speaker 2: his glasses. And I'll tell you why I'm saying that,

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, I was thrilled. I mean, you might want

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Speaker 2: to up in on this, Cheryl. Remember we're not having

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Speaker 2: high tea at wizard Castle. But it's a sad day

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Speaker 2: when you're excited, when you're thrilled you think you find

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Speaker 2: a missing boy's glasses.

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Speaker 1: Why was I thrilled?

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Speaker 2: Because it was a clue for a moment, and then

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Speaker 2: the TBI confirmed they're not his glasses.

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Speaker 1: So I see where you're going, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 2: But it's a sad day when we're all thrilled to

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Speaker 2: find a pair of beat up glasses on the side

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Speaker 2: of the road. But I was, so where does that

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Speaker 2: leave me, Joe Scott? As we're all like, take a polly,

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Speaker 2: take a polly.

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Speaker 1: Why won't he take a polly? What really happened? Was

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Speaker 1: he at work? Was he not at work?

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Speaker 2: Well, we're all gnashing our teeth and switching our tails

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out about mister Proudfoot. If this kid,

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Speaker 2: this child is out there with his autism kicking in,

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Speaker 2: giving him problems, what's going to happen the likely scenario

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott as we're spinning our wheels on proud Foot.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, if this is you know, we're talking about Hendersonville, Tennessee, Nancy,

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Speaker 6: which is ten miles outside of Nashville. But you know,

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Speaker 6: really quickly up there that area becomes very rural, and

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Speaker 6: so if he has wandered off or been taken off

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Speaker 6: in any number of directions, his ability or survivability is

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Speaker 6: greatly diminished here. And what the police are doing right

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Speaker 6: now is, if you think about the last known location

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Speaker 6: of him, that's the center of the target, and they're

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Speaker 6: working from concentrically to eccentrically. They're moving out in these

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Speaker 6: big circles. But it's such a broad, densely wooded area.

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Speaker 6: This is a herculean task, to say the least. I

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Speaker 6: think that some of the answers are going to rest

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Speaker 6: in the idea that whoever had control over him his

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Speaker 6: comings and goings. We're talking about a kid that has

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Speaker 6: been diagnosed with autism, whoever had control over his comings

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Speaker 6: and goings. Their electronics need to be tracked, Nancy. Those

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Speaker 6: ideas of where did they go at those times when

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Speaker 6: he was seen alive, and that's going to be one

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Speaker 6: of the threads that you're going to want to pull

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Speaker 6: in this investigation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Cheryl McCollum a host of Zone seven as a

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Speaker 2: forensic expert, as you know Joe Scott Morgan death investigator. Cheryl,

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Speaker 2: you've had quite a lot to say online. What about now?

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Speaker 2: Kat got your tongue because I don't like that. No,

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Speaker 2: you're pretty bold.

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Speaker 1: When nobody's questioning you. No, but what about now? I

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Speaker 1: want to hear your analysis.

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Speaker 4: Here's my problem their statements. You've got inconsistencies. As soon

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Speaker 4: as somebody changes their story at all, they should become

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Speaker 4: the focus period. Mom has said different things. Now you've

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Speaker 4: got a stepdad that looks like he's co signing with

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Speaker 4: everything that she says, but he allegedly wasn't there, so

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Speaker 4: how can he agree with anything that she's saying. You've

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Speaker 4: got Mom saying she heard a thud. I don't like

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Speaker 4: that word. That sounds like a body hitting the floor.

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Speaker 4: When people use the word thud, that's not sounded like

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Speaker 4: you hit the wall, sounded like something drunk.

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Speaker 1: Now, it's never a good thing.

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Speaker 2: It's usually preceded by an adjective sickening, a sickening thud.

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Speaker 4: Right, and Nancy, you've got other things. You've got mom

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Speaker 4: saying he went to the end of the driveway to

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Speaker 4: put out the trash. And then you've got law enforcement

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Speaker 4: searching a landfilled, they're searching lakes, they're searching ponds. If

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Speaker 4: you're watching and paid attention to law enforcement, it does

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Speaker 4: not seem to me that they are looking to recover

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Speaker 4: a child alive. They are searching for remains. You and

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Speaker 4: I both know when Joe Scott knows when a child

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Speaker 4: goes missing, the first three hours are critical. We're at

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Speaker 4: six weeks, six weeks, this child has not been seen

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Speaker 4: or heard from.

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Speaker 2: Okay, hold on, what are you saying, Cheryl McCollum, that

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Speaker 2: you believe they don't expect to find Sebastian alive based

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Speaker 2: on their actions, and I'm talking about Ellie law enforcement.

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Speaker 4: They're searchings, they're searching landfills, lakes, pawns. That is not

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Speaker 4: indicative of somebody that is alive. And again, you've got

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Speaker 4: a child that has gone six weeks without his medicine,

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Speaker 4: six weeks without food that we know of. He didn't

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Speaker 4: have a source, no shoes, and Mama herself says, oh,

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Speaker 4: a flashlight's missing. Again, that's such an odd thing for

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Speaker 4: her to know is missing until they show her video

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Speaker 4: that looks like a flashlight, and then the stat dad says, well,

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Speaker 4: we were sure hoping it was, but we're sad to

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Speaker 4: report it wasn't a flashlight. Well, if you've got two

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Speaker 4: flashlights out there, why are you glad that it's not that?

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Speaker 4: That to me would signify that somebody was out there

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Speaker 4: in the wee hours of the morning with two flashlights,

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Speaker 4: meaning two separate people, the night your child would miss it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just odd.

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Speaker 2: What do you make of a three hour conversation held

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Speaker 2: between Missus Proudfoot and mister Proudfoot the night Sebastian disappears.

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Speaker 4: A three hour phone call bothers me because again, that's

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Speaker 4: a long time to be on the phone, and you

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Speaker 4: know you're hearing your son supposedly, he's answering you supposedly

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Speaker 4: during that time, but you don't go check on him

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Speaker 4: at all. You know, did somebody leave their phone just

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Speaker 4: own while they went and did something else. I don't know,

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Speaker 4: but I agree with Joe Scott. The electronics are going

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Speaker 4: to tell the story when his mama first entertained the

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Speaker 4: idea that somebody had him, what did she base that on?

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Speaker 4: His phone's not missing. He didn't take shoes, didn't take clothes,

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Speaker 4: didn't take money, nothing on his cell phone, nothing on

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Speaker 4: his computer. Says that he's been talking to anybody. I

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Speaker 4: mean she he's entertaining something that we have no facts for.

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Speaker 1: We have no Well, I'm concerned about the and you're right.

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Speaker 2: Whenever I hear inconsistent statements, as I have discussed many

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Speaker 2: many times in front of jury's, it's one thing to

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Speaker 2: add or embellish your original statement because maybe you weren't

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Speaker 2: asked the right questions first time around, maybe you remembered

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Speaker 2: something in addition triggered by questions. But when you change

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Speaker 2: your story, that's a problem. To Joe Scott Morgan joining

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Speaker 2: US Professor Jacksonville Jacksonville State University, Joe Scott, let's look

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Speaker 2: at where the searches are being conducted. We know the

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Speaker 2: law enforcement search has been scaled back. I want to

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Speaker 2: hear since you are a death investigator. We all three

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Speaker 2: have been on many, many searches for missing people and

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Speaker 2: who we believe to be dead.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear your analysis.

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Speaker 2: What can we glean from looking at what law enforcement

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Speaker 2: is doing.

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Speaker 6: Back to Cheryl's point about landfills and ponds, ponds or

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Speaker 6: water bodies of water. You can think that, well, you

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Speaker 6: have people that can just wander into these locations, Okay,

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Speaker 6: particularly somebody that might be in a compromise state like

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Speaker 6: this young man from a mental and a physical status

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Speaker 6: at this point in time. But when you start to

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Speaker 6: talk about landfills, Nancy, this is a rather dark, dark thing.

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Speaker 6: I've been to landfills multiple times conducting death investigations, and

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Speaker 6: those are locations where we're talking about the discarding of remains.

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Speaker 6: Now here's another interesting point, the fact that the landfill

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Speaker 6: is all the way up in contempy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he didn't just walk into a landfill and

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Speaker 2: fall over.

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Speaker 6: No, and certainly not in Kentucky. This is specifically targeted.

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Speaker 6: Now from my understanding, is that landfill used to surf

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Speaker 6: it or serve this particular area. And landfills are very

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Speaker 6: complex environments. They're gritted off essentially, they know where they're

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Speaker 6: going to do dumpings. It's not like they randomly go

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Speaker 6: into these locations and just back the truck up. They

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Speaker 6: go to specific locations. But with landfills, they're highly complex.

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Speaker 6: They're layered, and so you as you begin to stack

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Speaker 6: items in there, they then run over them with this

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Speaker 6: heavy equipment and it makes it makes the going very

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Speaker 6: very tough. As a matter of fact, anything that gets

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Speaker 6: in there begins to degrade and decompose very quickly. That's

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Speaker 6: the purpose of it. And so that is not a

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Speaker 6: good sign, Nancy, and the fact that they are searching

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Speaker 6: a landfill is rather ominous to.

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Speaker 1: Me doing matt crime on.

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Speaker 2: Now. It's just coming to you because I wanted to

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Speaker 2: talk to you, Dave mac on two issues and whatever

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Speaker 2: else you want to interject. Please, I need everybody's thoughts.

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Speaker 1: I want to get from you.

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Speaker 2: Any previous inconsistent statements as correctly stated by Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 2: and two allegations that Sebastian this autistic boy was molested

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Speaker 2: have emerged. Let's start with the inconsistent statements very quickly.

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Speaker 5: From the very beginning, Nancy, Chris Proudfoot made statements in

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Speaker 5: interviews online claiming he actually said somebody asked the question,

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Speaker 5: was a polygraph taken and has it been passed?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 5: I didn't specify who or when, but what I can

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Speaker 5: tell you everything has been vetted completely, polygraphs have come back,

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Speaker 5: has passed. So I'm confused as in why they are

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Speaker 5: all wondering if myself, my wife, and the biological father

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Speaker 5: took Okay, we know that's a lie. We know that

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Speaker 5: is absolutely a lie because of what he told you

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Speaker 5: on your show.

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Speaker 2: Well you're saying that that's what Proudfoot said, that he

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Speaker 2: had taken a polygraph he and his wife and had

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Speaker 2: been quote vetted.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, he did say that on a podcast. Go ahead, okay.

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Speaker 5: And then we also have the belt. You know, we

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Speaker 5: have hitting Sebastian with the belt. I don't know if

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Speaker 5: you caught this, but you know, when Seth Rodgers was

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Speaker 5: on your show last week when we were talking about

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Speaker 5: the belt, he started I saw later Seth referred to

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Speaker 5: it as he wasn't aware of the corporal punishment that

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Speaker 5: Chris Proudfoot was handing out to his son, to Seth Rogers'

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Speaker 5: autistic son. And you know, we pointed out that he

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Speaker 5: Proudfoot claimed it was years ago. And it was one

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Speaker 5: spank with the belt on his butt, but through clothing,

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Speaker 5: which makes no sense to any parent in the history

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Speaker 5: of mankind or any teacher at school that they would

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Speaker 5: actually look into something through clothing like that.

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Speaker 1: But they couldn't remember.

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Speaker 5: When how long ago it was, And another interview he

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Speaker 5: said fifteen, which means it had to have been in

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Speaker 5: the last several months. So we've got a number of

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Speaker 5: serious issues here.

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Speaker 2: Did Sebastian turn fifteen in December?

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Speaker 6: Correct?

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Speaker 5: And it went missing February two, twenty.

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Speaker 2: Six, So if he was fifteen when he got a

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Speaker 2: white with a belt, that would have been in the

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Speaker 2: last few months, just before he disappears.

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Speaker 1: So which one is true?

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Speaker 2: Was it three years ago or was it when he

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Speaker 2: was fifteen years old? Another question, allegations that Sebastian was

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Speaker 2: molested have now emerged.

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Speaker 1: What can you tell.

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Speaker 5: Us Sebastian's biological by the seth Rogers said that when

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Speaker 5: the Proudfoots, when Katie and Chris Proudfoot and Sebastian were

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Speaker 5: living in an apartment in California a couple of years

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Speaker 5: several years ago, that Katie Proudfoot allowed a boy that

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Speaker 5: was five years older than Sebastian to play with Sebastian

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Speaker 5: and the boy was thirteen. Sebastian was eight this time

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Speaker 5: she allowed Seth. Rogers said that Chris Katie Proudfoot allowed

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Speaker 5: a thirteen year old boy to play with Sebastian who

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Speaker 5: is eight, without any kind of involved from Katie Proudfoot,

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Speaker 5: and that during the time this thirteen year old molested

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Speaker 5: and raped Sebastian Rogers.

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Speaker 2: It seems the more we investigate, the murkier the facts become.

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Speaker 1: This is what I know.

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Speaker 2: Every day, literally every hour that Sebastian Rogers is missing

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Speaker 2: is one hour closer to him being dead.

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Speaker 1: Can we tune out all the static in.

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Speaker 2: The noise and try to focus on finding this autistic boy?

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Speaker 2: And to you, mister Proudfoot, our offer is still on

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Speaker 2: the table for a polygraph free of charge to you.

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Speaker 1: I'll pay for it out of my pocket. We wait

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Speaker 1: as the search goes on. Goodbye friend.

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Speaker 2: The people to give